Crafting system overhaul

I dont know about anyone else, but this crafting system is so boring it makes my eyes bleed.

I dont care what you are making, its pretty bad. There is no interaction with what is going on. Making bricks is one of the worst things you can do its very boring.

Anyways here are some of the things I think should be done with crafting.

Problem:
What is the point of selecting tools? Unless you give us a BONUS for using the correction ones, or a neg for using the wrong ones, there should be no need to select tools.

Idea:
Make different level of tools. Meaning, you can use a basic tool or an advanced focused tool, or something. Which would give bonuses or negatives.
Say you are making deer bone chest. Well there could be advanced tools for using a DEER BONE tool vs using a basic tool, or even a BEAR BONE tool. You could use a bear bone tool, but maybe make it take 5x longer, or much higher chance to fail, or come out with an inferior product. (More on inferior and superior products later.)

Problem:
Doing the same action over and over, with little to no reaction from the user/crafter. Its just asking to be macroed.

Idea:
Why not make it so you have things happen while you are crafting that require the user/crafter to react to what is going on. Things like errors that require them to use a different type of tool, or maybe put it in water, or buff something out etc. If you DONT do this action you will run the risk of failure, or taking a lot longer to make it, or making a smaller amount (more on smaller amount in a bit), or inferior item.
If you DO the correct action, you could make items much faster, or higher chance of success, or making more than 1 item with the resources that would normally only allow one to be made (more on this in a bit again), or superior item.

Problem:
Why is it that we can only make 1 brick per click? Or 1 item? Even if we have more than enough resources in our bags. (Others have said something like this).

Idea:
Allow the game to detect how many we can make using the resources we have on us, and let us choose how many we wish to make. Making more at once should increase chance of failure, but reduce the amount of time.

Problem:
NO options for the crafter in how they want to do things or make things.

Idea:
Allow the crafter to choose things like, # of items they wish to craft at once, or change chance of success based on how long they want to spend at it. (Lower success could mean they get a product done faster, but high failure rate). Maybe allow to skim on items needed to make it but the product has a high chance of failure, or comes out inferior. Or the other way around, pick the BEST items for a higher chance of success or superior item.

Problem:
Items in this game have no quality, nor do they do anything different. You use a handaxe, its just as good as a woodaxe, or a crafters hammers vs a makeshift hammer. They do the same damage, they take the same amount of time, there is no durability in the game so those dont wear out yet or anything.

Idea:
All items should have stats that go with them. Things like durability, speed, craftsmanship, weight, damage, etc. All these stats should be seen in some way, you dont have to put numbers to it if you dont want to, but explain it in the description (I would rather have numbers as it would make for a lot less coding).
Then you could have inferior items, and superior items.
Inferior items = Items that are just like basic ones (or normal) but they have some of their stats worse.
Superior items = Items that are just like their basic one, but they have some of their stats better.

Like a Handaxe, could do normally 20 damage, with a speed of 15, with 3 weight, durability of 5.
But an inferior Handaxe would be 17 damage, with a speed of 15, with 6 weight, durability of 5.
Or a superior Handaxe would 20 damage, with a speed of 22, with 3 weight, durability of 7.


Making smaller amounts or larger amounts than what the crafting said it would make.
One way to allow crafters to be rewarded for REACTING to things in game is to allow them to react correctly they can come out with 2 or 5 or 10 etc items instead of the basic amount.

Like making a brick, I set it to make all 10 bricks at the normal settings and rates. But because I reacted correctly, I get 14 bricks instead of 10.
Or because I just walked away and let it make the 10 bricks on its own, I only get 7.
This rewards people for reacting and PLAYING a crafter, while still rewarding people that dont mind losing some mats, as long as they dont have to click 10000x

Anyways please post comments.

I think most of what you're saying will be added eventually anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrDDT

Problem:
Doing the same action over and over, with little to no reaction from the user/crafter. Its just asking to be macroed.

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I like the way you worded this, very good quote if you ask me. Mainly because it's so true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrDDT

Idea:
Why not make it so you have things happen while you are crafting that require the user/crafter to react to what is going on. Things like errors that require them to use a different type of tool, or maybe put it in water, or buff something out etc. If you DONT do this action you will run the risk of failure, or taking a lot longer to make it, or making a smaller amount (more on smaller amount in a bit), or inferior item.
If you DO the correct action, you could make items much faster, or higher chance of success, or making more than 1 item with the resources that would normally only allow one to be made (more on this in a bit again), or superior item.

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I liked the whole improving system that Wurm Online had. Where you had to use a series of tools to improve the quality of the item. Definitely was something new each time and it's even difficult to macro.

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Originally Posted by trenixdecease

I liked the whole improving system that Wurm Online had. Where you had to use a series of tools to improve the quality of the item. Definitely was something new each time and it's even difficult to macro.

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Wurm had a good system for crafting outcome, but still very boring in my opinion. Very little could be done to make it better on the fly.
I mean where are the options to add say carbon to make a stronger steel? You were told each step of the way what to do and how to do it. Not saying that Wurm's system is wrong, just saying it could be better, and it was pretty boring.

I like systems like Vanguard, where you could improve it using better mats, or even by choosing skills to do things. It would ask for say like a cloth to be bleached, well you could have used cheap bleach, or you could use the costly one. Cheap would not help much but it would help, while costly one would allow you better chance of success, and sometimes better outcomes.

I understand that some of this is asking a lot, but the current system to me, is just really slow, and boring. If some of this stuff isnt done, I cant really see a reason why people would want to activly do this. I can see it being macroed.

Dont get me wrong, I dont like macroing but if the choice is to do this brick making 10000 times with no input from the user, why wouldnt you macro that? I like it when macroing is an option just not a good one. So if you wanted to macro and run the risk of being banned you could do it for less gains or reason than if you did something activly. Why not reward active play, and not worry about people that macro?

If you made it so that PLAYING the game and playing it smart rewarded you (greatly in some cases) macroing wouldnt be worried about. No one would care if someone were macroing or not.

Anyways I dont want to get into a macroing topic (which seems like Im side tracking to), my point is that currently the system is very boring, and these ideas might take some coding, however, would be worth it greatly to the game.

just to give a applaud on all your ideas given here.. I read throughly it all and believe you had some great ideas for it all and think the dev's should take a look and consider this all. In all though i think the best part of this statement is the idea of gaining more items created by actually watching and paying attention to items being built, this leave's it so if you macro u can still gain even though be crappy crap, but if u do pay attention and watch you can get superior items and make more then you planned on for the same amount of resources.

Yeah these ideas were thought through well.

I pretty much agree with everything on there. Also, yeah the Wurm online crafting was terrible. Having played it for two years, I didn't get into the crafting too much, mainly just the PvP aspect. The little crafting I did, however, was boring as all hell.

I know this game isn't going to turn out like that though, Jordi knows what he's doing.

+1 Nice post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrDDT

You were told each step of the way what to do and how to do it. Not saying that Wurm's system is wrong, just saying it could be better, and it was pretty boring.

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Whoa, are you complaining that Wurm Online had some user friendliness? I hope not, I'm not really looking for a game that's problem solving, just strategic. However, after thinking about it, I sort of don't want the possibility of improving weapons. The quality of an item makes crafting so much more extensive which was why it was so boring in Wurm Online. A finished product should sustain its quality until it's otherwise salvaged or broken. I think items should have different forms like they do in MMORPGs. The better the quality or "grade" of an item, the better and more stats it will give you. The color of the text for an item should also reflect its grade. Tools, armors, and weapons should be the only items that have grades.

I'd like Diabloesque items, sort of. Not completely random, but so that items are actually DIFFERENT. As a crafter, I don't want to create the same damned thing as someone else because we both have pattern X. How can you take pride in something that everyone can make?

Now, taking the time to get the proper materials, tools, work areas, and your own skill and then throw in a random modifier that can move up or down a slight bit then you craft your item of awesomeness. What will the stats be when you're done? You don't know, but you have a good idea because of everything already mentioned, materials, skill, work area, etc.

So you get your item of awesomeness and it's pretty awesome, maybe it doesn't have the durability you wanted, or the sharp edge you were looking for, but you know what, it's still awesome. Why? Because it's a good item, it's unique and you made it. It's not colored purple so everyone can say "All my items are purple, look at my e-peen", etc. It looks like whatever it is, maybe a long sword, short sword, club, whatever. Maybe it has a nicer looking blade to let you know there's SOMETHING different about the blade, but really, until it's in your greedy hands, you have no idea what.

Then, when that guy charges at you and spanks you really bad... You know you want his weapon, work to get it, make it, make something better whatever.

THAT is how I personally want crafting to work. Whether or not that'll actually happen or even if others agree, I dunno. Doesn't really matter, in the end, we're going to get what we get. This is just what I want.

+1 for the op and +1 for Trekkan.

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Originally Posted by trenixdecease

Whoa, are you complaining that Wurm Online had some user friendliness? I hope not, I'm not really looking for a game that's problem solving, just strategic. However, after thinking about it, I sort of don't want the possibility of improving weapons. The quality of an item makes crafting so much more extensive which was why it was so boring in Wurm Online. A finished product should sustain its quality until it's otherwise salvaged or broken. I think items should have different forms like they do in MMORPGs. The better the quality or "grade" of an item, the better and more stats it will give you. The color of the text for an item should also reflect its grade. Tools, armors, and weapons should be the only items that have grades.

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I sorta agree (not with the item colours and grades) that it should keep its quality. But I also believe somethings could be upgraded but you should have to use mats that cost a good bit to make it better. Like say you want to upgrade a hammer. Well you should have to use maybe a costly type of steel or prep it in a costly way to upgrade it. Even then the upgrade could fail, or maybe even worsen the hammer depending on chance, your skill, the mats used, your tools etc.

I liked Wurm's system, but I found it to be tedious. The jumps in improving were really small is all. I really liked the system though. But I didnt like "imping" something over 2000 times to get it to become good. Thats 2000 times for 1 item. Thats over 2 hours of imping for 1 item. (Assuming you are using the fastest tools in the game, if not that could go much much higher.)

I think that crafted items should have different stats based on the materials used to manufacture and the player's ability to manipulate variables during the crafting process. I also think that items should start to degrade after reaching a certain durability percentage (I stole this idea straight from Fallout 3 and New Vegas), and that item repairs should be limited (to encourage people to need to rely on crafters to have to replace equipment so that crafters have something to do and the game doesn't get flooded with items).

I certainly agree that games should do something to make the crafting process less boring.

I was told that all items have stats, and that all items differ in the stats they have. The tooltip isnt in place for these stats to be shown yet.

I also believe that these stats need to have a larger effect on whats going on.

I love your idea with the degrading of stats after they get to a point of breaking down (low durability). This would promote people to use newer made tools for the best work, and old tools for things they are just practicing with or maybe people that are just starting out in the craft. Also this would stop people from wanting to use tools they found laying around, and have crafters make them new ones.

Decay on items is a must for a working economy. If not there would be no need for crafters to keep making items. I believe if you put in a system where, you use an item a few times it drops down its stats, so the BEST items would be newly made, but doesnt mean you just toss the item away. Because all things you make dont need to be the best of the best, you must choose which items you want to put the work in on.

Also as far as repairs, I think repairing should be in, but like you said limited. Also repairing an item should slow its decay but not improve its stats back to tip top shape.

I think Eve's system of blowing up your ship (which costs tons of resources) and some of your items is great way of promoting a crafting economy because a lot of items need to be replaced when you die. It doesn't make sense to blow up in this game, but I think having armor take massive hits to durability would be something that could be done to further promote a crafting economy.

Back on improving crafting though. MAKE IT MOAR INTERACTIVE RAWR!!!!!

There is a decay system in the works, through the world update system. Currently it is not turned on, but it will be in the near future.

Decay will affect most player made items and there will be different types of decay depending on the item. Tools, weapons, and clothing will mainly decay with use or damage, construction items will decay over time. Decaying or damaged items will either need to be repaired or replaced.

You may have already noticed, there are patterns that can use different materials for their source resources. There are different tools available for crafting, each has a different level of quality. With all these put together we have a quality based crafted item system.

Character skill, quality of tools, condition of tools, different types of resources = quality based crafting

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrDDT

I dont know about anyone else, but this crafting system is so boring it makes my eyes bleed.


Problem:
What is the point of selecting tools? Unless you give us a BONUS for using the correction ones, or a neg for using the wrong ones, there should be no need to select tools.

Idea:
Make different level of tools. Meaning, you can use a basic tool or an advanced focused tool, or something. Which would give bonuses or negatives.
Say you are making deer bone chest. Well there could be advanced tools for using a DEER BONE tool vs using a basic tool, or even a BEAR BONE tool. You could use a bear bone tool, but maybe make it take 5x longer, or much higher chance to fail, or come out with an inferior product. (More on inferior and superior products later.)

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My idea would be auto select system, Where when you start to craft it auto selects your tools for you. If you are short a tool, You will fail to craft anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrDDT

Problem:
Doing the same action over and over, with little to no reaction from the user/crafter. Its just asking to be macroed.

Idea:
Why not make it so you have things happen while you are crafting that require the user/crafter to react to what is going on. Things like errors that require them to use a different type of tool, or maybe put it in water, or buff something out etc. If you DONT do this action you will run the risk of failure, or taking a lot longer to make it, or making a smaller amount (more on smaller amount in a bit), or inferior item.
If you DO the correct action, you could make items much faster, or higher chance of success, or making more than 1 item with the resources that would normally only allow one to be made (more on this in a bit again), or superior item.

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EQ2 and Vanguard both had great reaction tool system. As some problem came up with EQ2 you had only so long to react to it with the right tool. If you did not hit the right tool or was to late the integrity is compromised, And it can get so bad as to be a failed crafted item. In Vanguard, The crafting would stop till you did something. Been a long time, But iit seem you had to add something to the ingredients of the recipe. Both VG and EQ2 would eat your resource if you failed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrDDT

Problem:
Why is it that we can only make 1 brick per click? Or 1 item? Even if we have more than enough resources in our bags. (Others have said something like this).

Idea:
Allow the game to detect how many we can make using the resources we have on us, and let us choose how many we wish to make. Making more at once should increase chance of failure, but reduce the amount of time.

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Add Craft Many, Craft, Stop to crafting. When in craft many, You will craft till you run out of ingredients, Or hit stop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrDDT

Problem:
NO options for the crafter in how they want to do things or make things.

Idea:
Allow the crafter to choose things like, # of items they wish to craft at once, or change chance of success based on how long they want to spend at it. (Lower success could mean they get a product done faster, but high failure rate). Maybe allow to skim on items needed to make it but the product has a high chance of failure, or comes out inferior. Or the other way around, pick the BEST items for a higher chance of success or superior item.

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I like this if I understand you right. Say I just wanted to build up my crafting skills. I could lower the success rate, And make sure I had the resource on me and just let it go. I would lose all my resources, But gain skill and level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrDDT

Problem:
Items in this game have no quality, nor do they do anything different. You use a handaxe, its just as good as a woodaxe, or a crafters hammers vs a makeshift hammer. They do the same damage, they take the same amount of time, there is no durability in the game so those dont wear out yet or anything.

Idea:
All items should have stats that go with them. Things like durability, speed, craftsmanship, weight, damage, etc. All these stats should be seen in some way, you dont have to put numbers to it if you dont want to, but explain it in the description (I would rather have numbers as it would make for a lot less coding).
Then you could have inferior items, and superior items.
Inferior items = Items that are just like basic ones (or normal) but they have some of their stats worse.
Superior items = Items that are just like their basic one, but they have some of their stats better.

Like a Handaxe, could do normally 20 damage, with a speed of 15, with 3 weight, durability of 5.
But an inferior Handaxe would be 17 damage, with a speed of 15, with 6 weight, durability of 5.
Or a superior Handaxe would 20 damage, with a speed of 22, with 3 weight, durability of 7.


Making smaller amounts or larger amounts than what the crafting said it would make.
One way to allow crafters to be rewarded for REACTING to things in game is to allow them to react correctly they can come out with 2 or 5 or 10 etc items instead of the basic amount.

Like making a brick, I set it to make all 10 bricks at the normal settings and rates. But because I reacted correctly, I get 14 bricks instead of 10.
Or because I just walked away and let it make the 10 bricks on its own, I only get 7.
This rewards people for reacting and PLAYING a crafter, while still rewarding people that dont mind losing some mats, as long as they dont have to click 10000x

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I think crafting skill should play a bigger part in how many you make. Take mason, I know it's going to get some love at some point, But say I am a level/skill point 75, And I am making bricks again, Bricks are like level 1 stuff. Then I could set to craft many and almost every one would be made without me doing anything. Thats because my skill is high, But if I sit with it, And did everything I needed to, Then I would comeout ahead with a higher brick count.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuideSophia

There are different tools available for crafting, each has a different level of quality. With all these put together we have a quality based crafted item system.

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The problem with this is, no one is going to use any of the other tools, they will only use the best one and the others will be pointless. That is why static patterns (of anything) end up not really working out, or otherwise end up like any other game. Although, if items were different so that almost no two items were exactly the same and the end result of your crafting wasn't 100% known until you make the item, I could live with tools having set "levels".

Agreed Trekkan, Unless there is going to be rare resources, But even then people will only use highest quality items that they can get.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trekkan

The problem with this is, no one is going to use any of the other tools, they will only use the best one and the others will be pointless. That is why static patterns (of anything) end up not really working out, or otherwise end up like any other game. Although, if items were different so that almost no two items were exactly the same and the end result of your crafting wasn't 100% known until you make the item, I could live with tools having set "levels".

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^This.

It's good to have a deep crafting system, but the mechanics are still fairly boring. I think it'd be nice if they could make it into an ability-based crafting abilities where you can learn abilities that can be used during the crafting process to affect the overall stats of items.

I also think that items should have pros and cons. Be better at some things but worse at others. Having different tiers of overall weapons wouldn't be a bad thing, either, as long as there is a lot of variation within tiers so that players don't all gravitate to using the same weapon of each class.

I would also think it'd be cool as heck if you could make poisons and toxins that can be coated on to weapons that give additional affects.

But in all things it should be balanced so players can use what they are most comfortable with, not what is the most powerful.

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Originally Posted by mrcalhou

I would also think it'd be cool as heck if you could make poisons and toxins that can be coated on to weapons that give additional affects.

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This could give another reason to have crafting benches.

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Originally Posted by aliksteel

This could give another reason to have crafting benches.

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Or at least a pestle and mortar tool to break down plant material and some chemical reagents like sulfuric acid (oil of vitriol--very old stuff can be made by burning sulphur with saltpetre in the prescence of steam), to extract the toxins out of plants and concentrate it. Then put the stuff into vials and then coat the weapons like that. Have it wear off over use.

I don't see why things would have to be done on benches, but in real life it certainly is more comfortable on a flat and stable surface than on the ground.

I was thinking as this would be an advanced form of crafting it would have to take something like a workbench, Or at lest thats the way I took it.

Ah, when I mentioned it I was thinking something simple, like how rainforest tribes use poisons for darts and stuff like that. Extracting stuff from plants is old too. Like coffee and tea and cocaine and chewing on this certain tree's bark that grows in africa because it has a lot of acetylsalicilic acid (aspirin).

Thanks for the feedback people keep it coming. This by all means isnt meant to just be "This is how I want it and thats it"

I agree Trek with those thoughts on it, and I agree with you that items should be different.
Mrcalhou, I agree also with the balanced items should have pros and cons, but I also agree that some ideas wont have cons if you use the right mats, got lucky, and have good skill, and were active crafting it. Dont forget I believe also in a decay system that changes items from "NEW" status to used quickly and the first hit to being out of new status changes the stats on items. This is to promote people wanting to use new items for special things, and using used tools/items for basic skilling and everyday things.
Take a mason making bricks. Well you can make everyday bricks with a used item because you are just making house walls etc. But say if bricks had stats on them, and if you used high stat bricks from using good tools you could maybe make stronger walls (defense walls). Thus you would want to have your skilled masons and newer tools making these bricks. While others make bricks for basic houses or roads.

Aliksteel. EQ2 crafting reaction was a joke really, is it better than this? YES by far. But really, all I did was spam 123 if I was doing a hard item (higher than my skill) or 456 if I was doing something lower than my skill. Reason was, it didnt matter for you reaction. Its better to get the effects 100% of the time rather than picking the correct reaction.
Im also looking for more choices, not just failure/success reactions. Choices like, lower durability but faster crafting, or lower durability but higher stats, or lower stats takes longer and higher durability. Plus if you just let it go afk, you miss out on all those.
Totally agree with the skilling idea, you had it spot on part of what I was thinking there.

What I would like to see also is crafters names attached to items also. I always thought that was cool in UO.

Think SWG had "made by" on the item as well, If not SWG, I know there was another that had it. Never had a chance to play UO.

When I was thinking pros and cons, I was thinking about how Eve has different ammo for different situations. Like, one ammo might be better at taking out shields but not as good against hulls, one might be balanced to do equally well against hulls and shields but not great at either. And also how different turrets of the same class might have a faster attack speed but lower damage and lower range, or a high range and damage per shot, but a low refire rate, or have an average refire rate, average damage, and average range. Things like that.

So that's what I mean by pro's and con's. I guess a better way would have been if I phrased it as "they would be more useful in some situations but less useful in others." Like using a slow and heavy sword against heavily armored and slow characters, while using a fast, but weaker sword against agile characters.

I don't think crafters should be able to create an item that would be good in all situations. I don't want one thing being completely overpowered relative to everything else. Compared to a few things? Sure, but not too many. I want there to be a reason for players to use different weapons within each of the different types of weapons. Same with armor and so on.

I was also thinking that crafters would have a minigame type of thing when crafting (I suppose similar to what vanguard had though I never played it, but rather heard that it was really well done), that would give bonuses and deficits relative to what the base stats would be, but nothing completely drastic.

Mraclhou,

Yes thats a great idea. I thought you were talking about like an item would have to have cons. Which I dont agree. Items will decay, so some items will be good for lots of stuff but will decay away. These items would also be rare and very hard to make. So I guess the con would be very costly. I agree totally with the ammo though, I love that. Balancing for PVP and PVE will always be something thats "in progress" and these are the types of things that make it fun and what I love to do.

Vanguard had a pretty fun system. Im thinking of something like that for a "minigame" only I would like to see more choices and effects. Like say you could choose to make something faster but poor quality, or something higher quality but take longer. (Balancing here would be needed but the point remains)