Improve Masonry/Architect Fix/Woodcraft Rename

I'm very disappointed with masonry. Being that I am a mason myself time to time in the real world, I feel like you can't do enough in this game. A mason ingame pretty much grinds 24/7. The only available crafts that he has I believe are bricks and mortars which he doesn't even personally use. The architect not only "plans" structures, but he also creates em?

New Masonry Features

1) Masonry should be the only skill craft that can pave paths/roads. Would be nice to something for once without standing in one spot, grinding.

2) Making a pavement should require resources that are only made by masons.

3) Introduce new types of pavements. Some pavements will make you move faster than others but they will require more resources.

4) Making a pavement will no longer require a shovel. In the real world, after you flatten the area, there is no reason for a shovel.

5) Bricks should only be stacked on ground when in stacks of 10-12s. Sort of lame how you must put all bricks inside of bags and baskets, cuts the realism.

6) New item, the mixing tub. Masons should start out with a mixing tub instead of a pack like everyone else. A mixing tub should be the only container that is able to carry mortar. Toolcrafters should be able to create mixing tubs.

Architect Fix/Woodcraft Rename

In my own opinion, architects should be the only ones who can make plans. However, they shouldn't be the ones who "build" structures. Instead, they should get skills by making plans, not finishing them. A mason, should be the only one who could "build" a structure which requires masonry resources.

As for the rest of Architect's plans, they should be built by the profession that has the resources to make that structure. For example, the woodcrafter should build structures which are made out of wood. In addition, the woodcrafter skill should be renamed to carpentry. No reason to have all skills be called blankcraft.

Architects should be required to plan structures and then they should go gather resources. They are not builders, they are planners. Part of being a mason and a carpenter, is actually "doing" your job. Otherwise, they shouldn't be considered a mason or a "woodcrafter". Without an architect being on at all times, it's pointless to play as a support craft. Especially since an architect has to personally tell you how much of the resources you need to make for each plan, as well as him being there so he can finish it.

New Architect Features

1) New tools, writing utensils. Architects would start with either a pencil or pen.

2) New item, paper. This will be required for all plans.

3) Depending on the plan, will depend on the type and quantity of paper and writing utensils.

4) Pencils should be crafted by woodcrafters.

5) Pens should be created by toolcrafters. Tar could be used for the ink.

6) New resource, lead.

7) Paper should be created by architects.

Added to official list ~KiwiBird

I agree that Masons need a little more to do.
As for your ideas about Architecture, I would have to disagree. Why would you take abilities away from a craft that already has only one use. Also, if the skill gain was from planing I could just spam plans and then tear them down to grind out skill.

I think that Masons should be given the ability to make Stone bridges and Woodcrafters, Wooden bridges. These structures should be allowed to be built outside of tribal territory and should have public permissions set to them. They should not have a destroy option so no one can simply destroy them. They should have to be attacked to be destroyed and they should have a decay. And only Masons or Woodcrafters should be able to repair their respective bridges.

If not, the mason craft skill should just be merged with architect. As it does not have enough content and Architect can't do much in the way of producing any of the materials needed for their craft.

There's one problem with having architects get skills for "planning" projects. What's to stop an architect from throwing up 100's of ghost structures and raising his skill quickly like that?

Overall, I liked your post. But there's one thing you gotta remember.. this is still just a game. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for realism. The simple truth is if a game is too real it simply just won't work.

I like the idea of masons being the only ones able to build roads with different types of pavement. Some pavements might make it "easier" to walk on than others. I do like how you mentioned only masons could be able to make these components, but what if carpenters/woodcrafters could fashion the materials for a wooden path, but masons are the ones who actually put it all together?

I've got a twist on your idea of architects only being able to build structures that contained components he/she made themselves. Many recipes in architecture require components made from several crafts. What if, as long as you were able to set permissions for the right people, any craft that was required to make one of the components was able to "complete" the project? For example, say we're building a "Wall of Awesomeness" that requires "Wooden Slats" from Carpentry/Woodcrafting and "Mortar" from Masonry. If the architect who puts down the ghost structure sets permissions for "Bob" the mason and "Harry" the carpenter to add to/complete the project (he would need to also be able to set separate permissions to move the structure), any of the three (Bob, Harry, or the original architect) could be the ones to "complete" the project as long as all the components were in place. I believe the architect would need to get the biggest skill gain, and the other people involved would gain a smaller amount of skill contingent upon how much they contributed (this is because adding resources to a project wouldn't be the main focus of their craft... the actual act of making the components would be the biggest skill gain for them).

I kinda rambled on there, but you get what I'm saying hopefully. What do you think?

Tybalt wrote:

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I agree that Masons need a little more to do.
As for your ideas about Architecture, I would have to disagree. Why would you take abilities away from a craft that already has only one use. Also, if the skill gain was from planing I could just spam plans and then tear them down to grind out skill.

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Maybe architects would require paper and writing utensil to make a plan for each structure. That way, you wouldn't be able to spam plans.

Tybalt wrote:

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I think that Masons should be given the ability to make Stone bridges and Woodcrafters, Wooden bridges. These structures should be allowed to be built outside of tribal territory and should have public permissions set to them. They should not have a destroy option so no one can simply destroy them. They should have to be attacked to be destroyed and they should have a decay. And only Masons or Woodcrafters should be able to repair their respective bridges.

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Architects should be the ones who make plans for bridges, but I definitely like the idea of only masons and woodcafters being the only ones who could only repair bridges, along with other structures.

Tybalt wrote:

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If not, the mason craft skill should just be merged with architect. As it does not have enough content and Architect can't do much in the way of producing any of the materials needed for their craft.

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That I don't agree with. Architects are much different than masons and woodcrafters. If that were the case, architects would be the best craft in the game.

travdoty wrote:

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I do like how you mentioned only masons could be able to make these components, but what if carpenters/woodcrafters could fashion the materials for a wooden path, but masons are the ones who actually put it all together?

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If woodcrafters are able to do that in the game, then they should be also be pavers. However, masons should have the best pavements in the game making woodcrafters be low quality pavers.

travdoty wrote:

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I've got a twist on your idea of architects only being able to build structures that contained components he/she made themselves. Many recipes in architecture require components made from several crafts. What if, as long as you were able to set permissions for the right people, any craft that was required to make one of the components was able to "complete" the project? For example, say we're building a "Wall of Awesomeness" that requires "Wooden Slats" from Carpentry/Woodcrafting and "Mortar" from Masonry. If the architect who puts down the ghost structure sets permissions for "Bob" the mason and "Harry" the carpenter to add to/complete the project (he would need to also be able to set separate permissions to move the structure), any of the three (Bob, Harry, or the original architect) could be the ones to "complete" the project as long as all the components were in place. I believe the architect would need to get the biggest skill gain, and the other people involved would gain a smaller amount of skill contingent upon how much they contributed (this is because adding resources to a project wouldn't be the main focus of their craft... the actual act of making the components would be the biggest skill gain for them).

I kinda rambled on there, but you get what I'm saying hopefully. What do you think?

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I don't like it so much. Architects should not build but plan. I've updated the original post about how to make plans less spamable. Help me out if you don't like the direction I'm going with this.

Woodcrafter will be making furniture in the future, so it is out of the question giving that craft even more power.
I can somewhat agree that masonry probably is a bad name, but I think sculptures and decoration for the city, as well as stonewalls, posts etc should be their job, not actual stone buildings.

The only thing an architect can is make plans and erect buildings, everything else is provided by other crafts and as stated masonry is a secondary craft at the moment :), but I think you can expect to see buildings in that as well..?

VeryWiiTee wrote:

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Woodcrafter will be making furniture in the future, so it is out of the question giving that craft even more power.
I can somewhat agree that masonry probably is a bad name, but I think sculptures and decoration for the city, as well as stonewalls, posts etc should be their job, not actual stone buildings.

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In order to make a house, you need an architect. So how would this overpower woodcrafters? If you have no house, then there is no reason to have furniture. Also, both stone walls and buildings require plans before they can be built in real life. Should be the same ingame.

VeryWiiTee wrote:

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The only thing an architect can is make plans and erect buildings, everything else is provided by other crafts and as stated masonry is a secondary craft at the moment :), but I think you can expect to see buildings in that as well..?

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You're right about the architect, but it's still unexplainable how he actually builds the buildings when he's a planner. At the moment, masonry could be considered a secondary, but it actually is a primary. Just sharing some thoughts to hopefully bring this profession into the game.

Well woodcrafter already make parts for toolcrafters and weaponcrafters, you can start expect furniture with the coming patches (since it is actually usuable now :P) so they will at some point be balanced with other crafts that makes material parts as well as finished products.

Architect can, for the time being, only make finished products.

Masonry can for the time being, only make material parts, ((could make finished products such as decoration for the city (fountains, statues etc).)) I don't think it is the case that they will make decoration, but it is a way to solve the building problem.


That's the only way I can justify the crafts as they are in game and why architects shouldn't be planners only.
- And yeah it does remove the reality perspective I'm aware of that :|

So far, what I have experienced in this game, is that an architect is the best profession in the game. Architects make every other craft become his bitch and all he does is sit back in his base planning (which is easy). He doesn't even go out to get resources most of the time.

With my suggestion, an architect would need resources to make plans, making them get out of base. It will also make planning more difficult. In addition, if they couldn't "build" their structures, other crafts would actually be useful. While it's true that without other crafts, architects would become useless, it doesn't give them the right to make other crafts become his own personal bitch, basically doing all of the grinding for him.

In the real world, a mason doesn't build blocks than hands it over to an architect to do their job. Part of being a mason and a carpenter, is actually "doing" your job. Otherwise, they shouldn't be considered a mason or a "woodcrafter".

Right now our tribal chief is an architect and its a full time job for him. I don't know if your issue is that they don't do enough skill grinding, or they don't move enough mats, but I do appreciate a good settlement designer.

I do believe the original plan was to allow all tribal members to help add to, and assemble structures. So this whole discussion might be moot.

Venciera wrote:

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Right now our tribal chief is an architect and its a full time job for him. I don't know if your issue is that they don't do enough skill grinding, or they don't move enough mats, but I do appreciate a good settlement designer.

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The problem is that woodcrafters and masons are worthless because the architect basically takes their job away from them. Setting up plans is one thing, but to built the finishing products using the mats that masons and woodcrafters make, is unreal and unfair.

Venciera wrote:

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I do believe the original plan was to allow all tribal members to help add to, and assemble structures. So this whole discussion might be moot.

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I really hope so, because at this moment, I feel like all other crafts are just grinders. I actually don't necessarily agree that "all" crafts should be able to assemble structures. Masons and woodcrafters are supposed to be the only builders (for now at least). To allow all crafts to contribute in assembling structures would only further degrade the builder professions.

prokop15 wrote:

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A ) This isn't the real world. Also, none of the structures in game are really something that would be designed... The purpose of the role of Architect in this game is to give the control of placing buildings to one individual, so you don't have 10 people in the clan placing buildings all willy nilly.

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I understand the role of the architect. The thing is, the architect shouldn't be the one who's "building" a tribe for us, but rather planning the tribe for us. As you mentioned before, he uses his intelligence rather than skill and labor. I'm not asking for masons or woodcrafters to set plans, but they should be the ones finishing planned products.

If, over enough time like in Eve, everyone could learn all the different crafts, and "Architect" was a tribal position that designated what could be placed where (and how it was built if the building system is that deep), then this wouldn't be such an issue, right?

prokop15 wrote:

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Listen, I know you're a mason in the real world (from time to time)and for that you have some sort of sense of pride attached to this in-game tradeskill. However, the fucking mechanics of the game have nothing to do with the honour of your noble profession.

Architects are responsible for the planning and creation of structures in this game. The current state of the game doesn't have nearly enough depth or population to be forcing players to choose a role that only allows them to put up plans.

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But, you gotta understand that because architects actually "build" their plans. Professions like a mason (especially), become nothing more than grinders. This also includes woodcrafters. To be able to even plan a structure, is something with much power. To be able to then build it after another person's grind, is just unbelievable. Who would honestly want to be somebody's grinder? There needs to be some balance with this.

mrcalhou wrote:

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If, over enough time like in Eve, everyone could learn all the different crafts, and "Architect" was a tribal position that designated what could be placed where (and how it was built if the building system is that deep), then this wouldn't be such an issue, right?

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I guess you're right, if we're all able to be architects, then this wouldn't be a problem. However, you do realize that an architect is going to be the number one requirement for all builder professions, right? That's exactly why I'm trying to balance this issue...

trenixdecease wrote:

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mrcalhou wrote:

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If, over enough time like in Eve, everyone could learn all the different crafts, and "Architect" was a tribal position that designated what could be placed where (and how it was built if the building system is that deep), then this wouldn't be such an issue, right?

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I guess you're right, if we're all able to be architects, then this wouldn't be a problem. However, you do realize that an architect is going to be the number one requirement for all builder professions, right? That's exactly why I'm trying to balance this issue...

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I think you missed what I was getting at. Instead of having architect be a skill set, it would be a position that is held by a member of a tribe. Then that tribe member sets up a plan for what should be built and where to put it. Then whoever has the appropriate skills can build that structure.

mrcalhou wrote:

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I think you missed what I was getting at. Instead of having architect be a skill set, it would be a position that is held by a member of a tribe. Then that tribe member sets up a plan for what should be built and where to put it. Then whoever has the appropriate skills can build that structure.

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That sounds interesting. Not sure how that would work out, but it may be a solution. Being an architect is a skill and therefore as you progress you get more structures available to you. So I'm not sure how that could fit into a role rather than a skill.

I still think an architect should be a skill, but I believe it requires more limits so other crafts wouldn't be suffering with all the grinding. You need a sense of progression after you grind, otherwise there is no reason for being a mason or woodcrafter. Sure, I could get all the resources, but afterwords, I want to be the one who builds the structure that I grinded for. Pretty much, a mason and a woodcrafter have no "real" finished products.

What about having architects be in the role of researching blueprints/plans for things that could be given to tribe members or sold to non-tribe members or something? Have the main skill be called Architect, then have sub skills for researching buildings, walls, etc. If they have an open skill system so that players aren't going to be limited to JUST being an architect then it'd work pretty well like that. Then the tribe planner would be in charge of setting where buildings could be placed.

I just skimmed the 2nd half of this thread, cos, well, Im too damned lazy to read all that.

But IMHO, architect is the wrong name for the skill, it should be called Builder. Architects are designers, they design buildings, they certainly dont build them. A mason should be responsible for adding the bricks to structures, carpenters should be responsible for adding the timber product to the structures. Make it a team effort to build something.

So a "builder" (not architect) would place the building, a mason would add the bricks, a carpenter the wood. Perhaps we could even introduce new skills such as concreting, thatching (or roofing), tiling perhaps?

I think construction just needs to be a little more complex, with more accuracy in the naming of skills.

Kinslayer wrote:

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I just skimmed the 2nd half of this thread, cos, well, Im too damned lazy to read all that.

But IMHO, architect is the wrong name for the skill, it should be called Builder. Architects are designers, they design buildings, they certainly dont build them. A mason should be responsible for adding the bricks to structures, carpenters should be responsible for adding the timber product to the structures. Make it a team effort to build something.

So a "builder" (not architect) would place the building, a mason would add the bricks, a carpenter the wood. Perhaps we could even introduce new skills such as concreting, thatching (or roofing), tiling perhaps?

I think construction just needs to be a little more complex, with more accuracy in the naming of skills.

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Architect should be renamed to Civil Engineer, imho. As a Civil Engineer, they would be responsible for doing the overall layout of a city. The act of giving a 'Civil Engineer' the materials, so they may be added to the structures, could be considered as a sort of inspection process, for those materials. Also, by finishing the building, it merely cuts out the actual build-time of said structure, thus giving the other professions time to work on materials for the next building, down the line.

As far as Woodcraft is concerned, I think a more appropriate name would be Carpenter, which imply, allowing them to expand into making furniture, signs, and other non-buildings, in addition to building materials.

Masonry is great, in it's own way. However, they should be able to make earthenware (or clay for potters) in addition to bricks, mortar, and lime. If they are supposed to be a support craft, I'd say, make more crafts for them to support.

Reference Material:
Civil Engineer - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_engineer
Carpenter - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpenter
Masonry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry

mrcalhou wrote:

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What about having architects be in the role of researching blueprints/plans for things that could be given to tribe members or sold to non-tribe members or something? Have the main skill be called Architect, then have sub skills for researching buildings, walls, etc. If they have an open skill system so that players aren't going to be limited to JUST being an architect then it'd work pretty well like that. Then the tribe planner would be in charge of setting where buildings could be placed.

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This sort of combines with my original idea, the idea of architects having to create plans with paper and writing utensils. Perhaps they could trade these plans to other players where they will be able to place them where they like. However, they would be restricted since they would need the proper profession in order to finish the given structure.

So basically, if a mason will want to create a wall. He would have to go to the architect for a plan. Whoever has the plan could then place the structure on the ground. Therefore, masons will require architects, and architects wont be doing the masons or woodcraft's job.

I just disagree with having so many support crafts. If they are going to be support crafts, perhaps they should be sub-skills of the main construction skill then.

Yeah, that's kind of what I think too, Kinslayer.

Darenkel wrote:

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Architect should be renamed to Civil Engineer, imho. As a Civil Engineer, they would be responsible for doing the overall layout of a city. The act of giving a 'Civil Engineer' the materials, so they may be added to the structures, could be considered as a sort of inspection process, for those materials. Also, by finishing the building, it merely cuts out the actual build-time of said structure, thus giving the other professions time to work on materials for the next building, down the line.

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I dislike the name choice and the idea. You're just enforcing that other crafters should grind for the next structure in line. Grinding is not fun, we should "at least" be able to create a finished product. Otherwise, the other crafts are just the architect's personal bitch.

Darenkel wrote:

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Masonry is great, in it's own way. However, they should be able to make earthenware (or clay for potters) in addition to bricks, mortar, and lime. If they are supposed to be a support craft, I'd say, make more crafts for them to support.

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Interesting about the earthenware. However, I'm not so sure about it. I'm neutral on this idea, but I'm all for whatever will remove basketry as an official skill, or a skill in general.

Another thing I realized, without an architect being on at all times, it's pointless to play as a support skill. Would be a lot better if architects can set the plans and then they're able to log so the other crafts could be responsible for building the structure.