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  1. #21

    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    Relandi wrote:
    Thus, if there are stats, they WILL be figured out.
    Well, like I said there are items/weapons in beta already, how much damage does a Patamon Saw Axe do?

    Currently it is impossible to calculate anything unless: someone wants to measure their health bar down to the pixel and then keep measuring it with every combination of weapon and every combination of armor and again every weapon crafted from the several types of materials that can be used to make such item and additionally test in every possible environment, with every possible character stat (i'm probably missing some other factors) then we might and I do mean might have a small possibility of figuring it out.

    most of the min/maxers solely rely on item stats, character stats, and logs that display damage done, received, and mitigated to make these calculations. How would it be done in this beta and why hasn't anyone done it yet?

    prokop15 wrote:
    What? There is differences in items whether they are shown as values or not. You think no ones going to figure out that the axe that does twice as much damage is better?
    If stats are provided then yes. If they are not then see my previous response.

    prokop15 wrote:
    Since when did intelligent gameplay become such an offense to you chumps?
    Calculating a game formula when variables are handed to people is not rocket science, it is basic algebra. So if junior high math is what you consider intelligent, then I see where you are coming from. I take no offense in it at all, I just believe it's more challenging by not spoon feeding the kids the numbers. Games that are challenging are more fun for me.

    Totally. Except you COUDLNT FUCKING DO THAT in such a system, as there's nothing to measure these things by.
    Sure there is, it's all in the manner of observation. You attack an animal with an axe. You get a new axe and you realize you kill a similar animal but faster. One can conclude the 2nd weapon does more damage. Over time, the time to kill the same animal increases at a more rapid rate thus requiring more repairs, thus less durable. And while carrying this weapon it take a few seconds longer to make the same trip from point A to B as it did with the first weapon, thus heavier. There are always ways to measure things, especially if they are based on formulas and variables. I get what you are saying, some people just want to be told these things to make the game easier for them.

    prokop15 wrote:
    Unless of course you are hitting mobs hundreds of time and measuring their health bars, counting ever swing you land, and trying to measure your encumbrance bar. But then you'd just be reverse engineering the system now, wouldn't you.
    In a way it is but it was derived from personal experience. From personal experience you know the Patamon Saw Axe is better than the Wooden Pelican Axe but you do not know how those two axes would compare to a Raptor Claw Axe if you never used one before or if it is better than your buddy's Scythe Blade. Where as any noob would know instantly that a sword with 7 DPS is better than a sword with 5 DPS without using either.

    prokop15 wrote:
    In conclusion...
    You guys are being way too dumb right now.
    In conclusion...
    Insulting or flamebait shows a lack of intelligence, maturity, or both. Doesn't make for a good community so it is really not needed.

  2. #22
    Xsyon Citizen Gamefreak's Avatar
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    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    Honestly I think that mouse over stats would ruin a part of this game. You need to mix and match combinations to find out the one that works best for your play style, and what materials would work best for what you are using. Assuming this is implemented.

    However, if we had a skill where we could get a rough estimate of a number of what damage we are doing, then that would be cool.

    For example, you hit a bear, normally there would be no number indicating what you hit it for. But, now in your chat log it will display around what you hit it for and how much endurance it took. The accuracy of the report would be reliant on the level of your skill.

    Just ideas.

  3. #23

    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    My theory on this:
    - try hitting a mob with A, then with B;
    - if you notice a difference, use the better item;
    - if you don't notice a difference, use either.

    What's the point in knowing that A is 0.001% faster than B? You can't tell the difference anyways, so... who cares? On the other hand, if you notice a difference you already know which is better, so you don't need to know "how much" (4% or 10%). You already solved the problem.

    Obviously, in trading this is completely different. Before buying an item you should be able to compare prices, so stats are important to not get scammed.

  4. #24

    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    prokop15 wrote:
    The reason why stats should be in video games is because it simulates the ability of players to make intuitive observations and measurements on the properties and purpose of an item or material.
    what's intuitive about numbers? you are contradicting yourself. intuition is the opposite of calculation.

  5. #25

    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    pid73 wrote:
    prokop15 wrote:
    The reason why stats should be in video games is because it simulates the ability of players to make intuitive observations and measurements on the properties and purpose of an item or material.
    what's intuitive about numbers? you are contradicting yourself. intuition is the opposite of calculation.
    He said it simulates the ability to make intuitive observations.

    I see the points on both sides of this argument. Too many numbers and stats can turn a game into a spreadsheet simulator but not offering any info is just frustrating as hell.

    Personally I just hope they have (or come up with) a system where materials truly matter. For example, say you had a choice between making a shovel handle out of pine vs. oak (ignore the fact there are no oak trees...yet?). If you choose pine the shovel should be lighter. But choosing oak means the shovel will last much longer before breaking. And the difference should be significant enough to make that choice meaningful. So rather than a pine-handled shovel being 1% lighter or an oak-handled shovel being 5% more durable, it should be on the order of 50% lighter and 100% more durable.

    I wish Wurm used the system I describe above. Many blacksmith products in that game require wooden handles and shafts yet the finished item makes no use of the wood type. It gets completely lost. Additionally the differences between wood types used for carpentry items is essentially non-existent. People assume oak is the best material for tools but in practice it makes very little difference if any at all. Same with buildings and fences. The material used for walls is irrelevant. It is kind of disheartening when you first learn that as a newbie.

    Anyway, I guess all I'm saying is that I could be in favor of "hidden" stats as long as they have obvious and significant effects on finished products and how they are used.

  6. #26

    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    @Cunk:

    I agree with you, but also consider trading. How can you buy/sell an item if it is next to impossible to give it a price? When I think about this I convince myself that numbers matter, and they should be available. When I think about the other implications (spreadsheeting like in EVE) I'm against it. I somehow realize that both are good and bad, it depends on the context. And I can't come up with a solution to this dilemma.

  7. #27

    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    Yeah, when you mentioned buying and selling in a previous post it occurred to me that is a major argument for some sort of clearly visible stats.

    But even then it's conceivable they could come up with a system that still manages to describe an item's key attributes without resorting to a table. Things like weight, materials used, and overall quality could easily be described.

    However, I'm still thinking in terms of that simple shovel. What about a weapon? There are probably lots more properties that would be important to know (will this game have enchantments?) so I guess the answer still isn't simple.

    Oh well. I guess we'll see what they come up with.

  8. #28

    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    let's stick to the shovel example.

    let's say the description reads "copper shovel with oak handle, moderately new" or something similar (better/streamlined/longer/descriptive).

    I would not have any numbers, so no "spreadcheating". on the same time if I'm a newb I can't make a thing out of it. but when I experiment first-hand or cheat it up on the Internets, I can actually tell the difference. it would be a player (not character) based skill to tell the difference. after some time you develop a "sense" to say what is better and what not, but in the beginning you are ignorant. that could make the difference between a newb and veteran player.

    "iron shovel with pine handle, heavily used, with rust stains"
    "titanium shovel with kevlar coated steel handle, very new, blue shimmer on the edges, golden carving on the backside depicting a dwarf leveraging a mountain"

  9. #29

    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    most probably, you're right. at least as long as no real solution is implemented in any MMO, and as far as I know there is none. so, this may be unsolvable for the time being.

    BTW: when I say "spreadcheating" I mean exactly that, not "spreadsheeting" :P

  10. #30

    Re:Item Descriptions, Stats , Bonuses on mouseover.

    I have an idea why not have a research skill to determine the quality of items, then the researcher could write down what he learned in books and sell them so characters would have to read that book to learn the quality of an item.

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