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  1. #1

    Target for Melee

    I hope this is nothing like Fallen Earth. They claim to have fps style melee combat, but it is really WoW combat without auto-attack. This doesn't require any additional skill and is actually more of an annoyance than anything. Ranged combat in Fallen Earth is just slightly better. The combat animations are not smooth and feel disconnected from the user input.

    I really hope that Xsyon does a better job at this. Combat animations need to be as fluid and responsive as possible so it feels like player timing actually matters in a fight. I would sacrifice graphics quality for fluidity any day. Anyone else agree?

  2. #2

    Re:Target for Melee

    the problem has more to do with lag and the users system. They could program the most fluid system imaginable but if you lag then it will feel disconnected.When an attack is based off of a dice roll then the hit is determined when you press the button not off of the animation. When is it ffps style then it is based off collision then even teh slightest lag could mean a miss wehen it should have been a hit.

  3. #3

    Re:Target for Melee

    Biships wrote:
    the problem has more to do with lag and the users system. They could program the most fluid system imaginable but if you lag then it will feel disconnected.When an attack is based off of a dice roll then the hit is determined when you press the button not off of the animation. When is it ffps style then it is based off collision then even teh slightest lag could mean a miss wehen it should have been a hit.
    So in essence you are saying that they should have the shittiest most boring system possible that every MMO already has because it might lag on someone's computer. Are you an MMO developer?

    P.S. Thanks for explaining to the original poster the concept of lag like he is a little child. You must really be a developer. That's usually how developers treat potential players.

  4. #4

    Re:Target for Melee

    It's not as simple as sacrificing graphics quality for fluidity. In FPS games you will (usually) only play with players who are in the same general area as you (low ping) using peer-to-peer communication where calculations of player positions are done client side. These two conditions combined means your client can cheat and simulate fluidity even if there is a slight desync.

    In an MMO with manual targeting, using a client - server model where the server is the master when deciding player positions is pretty much a necessity. More so than an MMO with tab-targeting, since knowing the exact position of others players isn't usually necessary in those. WoW, for example, has a lot of the calculations done client side, which makes the combat look smooth most of the time, but if either you, or the player you are fighting have bad latency, you might get out of range errors even even when standing on top of someone. Imagine how this would be if you needed pixel perfect manual targeting to hit someone...

    When players from all over the world are allowed on the same server, there will be desync issues. Allowing the client to cheat to simulate fluidity would only cause frustration as the server decides player positions. You'd get situations where you aim perfectly at another player, pull the trigger, and miss, because your client is busy making a fancy running animation from the position your client thinks the player is in to the position the server says he is in. This would happen just as often with stick figures as it would with Crysis quality graphics. In these situations, I think most can agree that it's better that players just warp, even if it looks ridiculous.

    I do agree that combat animations in Fallen Earth could be done a lot better, by the way, but the responsiveness is probably about as good as it gets right now in a non-instanced MMO with fps-style combat.

  5. #5

    Re:Target for Melee

    Siko did I miss the how that related to this point?

    Im not seeing it.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  6. #6

    Re:Target for Melee

    It could be made so much better then Fallen Earth, it's not like it is some kind of voodoo that most MMOS have the normal targeting its just easier for the player and the developer.

    The most important thing is it has to appear to be fluid and responsive, you even can make a traditional targeting unresponsive and disconnected ( if some of you remember Warhammer Online in beta and at release it was like mashing buttons and hoping an attack goes through you never really were sure).

    And there are several possibilities to create this appearance, also in reality its nothing different then your next best WoW clone.
    The problem is with so many features not related to combat, I have the feeling that they wont put so much effort in polishing the combat system to the perfection you want.

  7. #7

    Re:Target for Melee

    MrDDT wrote:
    Siko did I miss the how that related to this point?

    Im not seeing it.
    It was a response to...

    I really hope that Xsyon does a better job at this. Combat animations need to be as fluid and responsive as possible so it feels like player timing actually matters in a fight. I would sacrifice graphics quality for fluidity any day. Anyone else agree?
    ...and an attempt to explain why graphics quality has little to to do with fluidity and responsiveness. I then went off on a rant that had little to do with the OP's point that was probably that melee combat should involve more than looking at your opponent, staying in range, and swinging wildly until either you or he is dead.

    My point was that Fallen Earth has all the weaknesses you can expect from an MMO compared to an FPS (for the reasons described in my post), so from a technical point of view I wouldn't expect better from Xsyon. There is absolutely no reason to copy the boring game mechanics for melee combat from FE, though.

  8. #8

    Re:Target for Melee

    I understand.

    Well I think the graphics are fine and like you said not related really (Other than Animations are graphics).

    I really dont care to much for how fluid the combat is, as long as it looks ok, and has a good system to it.
    The main part for this game to work well for me, is if the ECON is working well. After that they need to make sure that combats (not 1 v 1) are needed and balanced.
    Sieges and raiding towns(tribes) will be needed to be fun, balanced, and something you want to do for control.


    If it has PONG graphics for combat it wont work, but as long as they are sorta up to par, I dont really have a problem with it. If they are way out of sync all the time or major depended on PING then there will be major problems too.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  9. #9

    Re:Target for Melee

    Guys, thanks for the input but you misunderstood my point. Believe me when I say that I understand very well the difference between frame rate which is dependent on computer hardware and latency which is dependent on quality of connection and distance from the server.

    All of that aside, I'm talking about fluidity in a general sense. The easiest way I can describe it is Darkfall vs. Fallen Earth. Both are open world non-instanced MMO's and have to overcome the same technical hurdles.

    Given good latency (~60-120 ms) and good framerate (30+ fps), Darkfall's combat system still feels much more fluid and responsive than Fallen Earth's. I'm hoping that Xsyon feels more fluid (yes, like WoW or Darkfall) regardless of how the combat system works.

  10. #10

    Re:Target for Melee

    Derek wrote:
    I hope this is nothing like Fallen Earth. They claim to have fps style melee combat, but it is really WoW combat without auto-attack. This doesn't require any additional skill and is actually more of an annoyance than anything. Ranged combat in Fallen Earth is just slightly better. The combat animations are not smooth and feel disconnected from the user input.

    I really hope that Xsyon does a better job at this. Combat animations need to be as fluid and responsive as possible so it feels like player timing actually matters in a fight. I would sacrifice graphics quality for fluidity any day. Anyone else agree?
    I find that the melee and ranged combat (aside from sniper zooming) between DF and FE to be more similar than anything. They have a cross-hair or reticle and its twitch combat. FE has executable mutations or powers that are a part of a characters skills, and DF also has combat powers that I purchase and press during play, with a cool-down associated with them.

    So I gather your point is about the fluidity of animations, rather than the combat style. Honestly, the game-play of FE and DF are the attractions, which is why I am also attracted to Xsyon; more so than the early-stage animations. But I do agree that smoothness, fluidness of combat animations without feeling clunky or whacky should be clean. But if in the DF or FE current state, it isn't going to prevent me from staying entertained with the game as it's addressed.

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