Currency

[eightonefive]

Stop saying it CANT be used because it makes you look uneducated. If you and your tribe dont want to use nails/screws/bolts/rods for currency, then dont, but dont preach about how the most common and valuable items in game cant be used as currency.

In history we have seen resources used as currency. I refer back to Japan and Mesopotamia. And after that gold coins were used, now we use paper which represents gold. So if it has value, and is accepted in trade, then that is the defintion of currency.

paper does not represent gold in our current economy. we left the gold standard in 1913.

[eightonefive]

if someone wanted to become say, a banker here's how he would do it. he would hoard a single valuable item. something that every tribe would want and need. regardless if the item is still obtainable, if that item was just a pain to carry a lot of, or like dirt nobody wanted to dig up big holes in their land. he would say that 10 paper dollars equaled 1 dirt. He would then allow you to trade in dirt for paper dollars, or paper dollars for dirt. Now your paper dollars are are backed by something physical, because you know that even though on it's own, paper dollars are just paper, you can bring these paper dollars to this trader and receive their set value in dirt. other tribes know this as well, so they have no problem accepting these paper dollars because they are dirt certificates, and you can carry many more of these than you can their value in dirt. The trader makes money because he can set some sort of interest rate on it, or convieniance charge. like I said, to begin with he would have to stockpile a decent amount of both to start his endeavor, but after that, as long as he can for the most part handle the demand of whomever decides to trade in their paper money for dirt on a day to day basis, including those that find paper money through scavenging then he's set. He can adjust interest rates as he sees fit, and can manipulate the ecomnomy however he wants, just so long as there is never more of a demand for the physical item the money is based on than he can handle. he wouldn't even necessarily have to have as much of the item on hand as there is money in circulation, just enough for his day to day operation.

[Tehralph]

if someone wanted to become say, a banker here's how he would do it. he would hoard a single valuable item. something that every tribe would want and need. regardless if the item is still obtainable, if that item was just a pain to carry a lot of, or like dirt nobody wanted to dig up big holes in their land. he would say that 10 paper dollars equaled 1 dirt. He would then allow you to trade in dirt for paper dollars, or paper dollars for dirt. Now your paper dollars are are backed by something physical, because you know that even though on it's own, paper dollars are just paper, you can bring these paper dollars to this trader and receive their set value in dirt. other tribes know this as well, so they have no problem accepting these paper dollars because they are dirt certificates, and you can carry many more of these than you can their value in dirt. The trader makes money because he can set some sort of interest rate on it, or convieniance charge. like I said, to begin with he would have to stockpile a decent amount of both to start his endeavor, but after that, as long as he can for the most part handle the demand of whomever decides to trade in their paper money for dirt on a day to day basis, including those that find paper money through scavenging then he's set. He can adjust interest rates as he sees fit, and can manipulate the ecomnomy however he wants, just so long as there is never more of a demand for the physical item the money is based on than he can handle. he wouldn't even necessarily have to have as much of the item on hand as there is money in circulation, just enough for his day to day operation.

But heres the thing, once he has all that useless paper money, hes going to have to find someone who was running the same show as him to even make use of it. I cant really see that many people willing to waste their time enforcing such a system when anyone can easily go find someone else who is willing to trade in materials instead.

And he cant manipulate the market, he is 1 tribe, 1 small tribe, a man digging up dirt and demanding a useless comodity. Maybe some people just dont understand this, but money is worthless in an apocolypse. People want resources, because resources help them survive. Paper... does not.

[eightonefive]

ralph, you didn't understand a thing I said.

[Gamefreak]

I guess there is.

[Tehralph]

ralph, you didn't understand a thing I said.

No, I understood, you were implying a mental patient would be able to control the economy with dirt and paper. Makes perfect sense.

[sionide]

I guess there is.

Actually, the link you gave and what we are discussing is different, though it is on the same subject. The link you posted was a heated argument of the game enforcing a type of "global currency" in the game, and the other side not wanting it, arguing the relevancy and how it will be monitored/regulated.

This discussion is about speculating what kind of currency will exist in the game. If the barter system will prevail or if a "global currency" will come about and if so what it would be and how it would work. Essentially your forum link is already put to rest, because the game has not enforced a global monetary unit as currency (kind of hard to do in this type of game).

So there is a difference, and no one is flaming or getting that much off mark like the other thread.

[sionide]

paper does not represent gold in our current economy. we left the gold standard in 1913.

I do no know who you mean by "we," but I am going to guess you mean the US. And well, that statement is wrong. Yes, the US (as did the British) left the Gold Standard during World War I, but both countries went back to it after the war.

It wasn't completely dropped until 1971, when the US dollar was based on currency markets.

Honestly, your statement doesn't add anything to this discussion because it's completely irrelevant. This discussion is not on what the US dollar is worth in todays free market economy. It's about how currency came about, and how Xsyon currency will be worth. Maybe one day we will face a free market in game where the value of an abstract concept as money will be based purely on market value, but that is a long way off.

As money existed for thousands of years, in Xsyon, there is going to be a value attached to it on something real (i.e. nails, etc). Until then, we won't have to worry about bubbles bursting nor default mortgages.

[sionide]

Let's continue then

What I'm worried about is that if we use common stackable item used in crafting like nails or screws(and it has to be common if we want to use it like money; saw blade will be worth a lot of nails) someone(tribe or wealthy trader) will start to buy all the nails he can find. This will create huge demand on "nails" and raise their vaule insanely. Then he can buy all the rare items with it becouse they might reach simmilar value.

It's an absract scenario. It'll be hard to do that and even harder if we won't have global trading system, but it can happen and someone will probably try it.

Yes, it is an abstract scenario without a global trading system like you said, so we really won't need to worry about it.

But to indulge this senario, nails in this case would be hard to do, since nails are relatively plentiful. The arm of this tribe would have to be far reaching (again nearly impossible without a global trading system and fast travel), and more new nails can not turn up faster than this tribe could aquire them. Furthermore, the tribe would have to have a great deal of already obtained resourses to corner the market of nails, because as they are buying more nails, nails will be worth more and more so they will need to pay (trade) more for them at higher prices/items.

However, since it isn't hard to get say 100 nails in 1h, there will be a constant influx of nails to balance their intake and hence this scenario will not happen to nails. However, a type of this monopoly actually does exist, and most people don't know about it. Diamonds aren't a rare item (think about it, it's made from carbon, and carbon is one of the most plentiful elements on the planet). However, Da Beers, does exactly that. When a new diamond mine is found they will buy it out to keep diamonds rare. This is only possible, because of the global economy and fast travel.

On something harder to obtain, for example saws, this could possibily happen. Especially, when/if (I am guessing "when") deteriation of items occurs in game. Saws will become even rarer than they are now, and a tribe or groups of tribes could hoard all the saws and just sell the finished product (i.e. medium wooden handles, etc). This I could see happening, and medium wooden handles could be the currency, if and only if the leader of those tribes with the saw monopoly all agree to a set value.

Again, it will be interesting to see what will happen. I don't fear anything will happen to nails, because they are are plentiful and easy enough to find. The saw analogy on the other hand...could happen in the current state of the game (however, people could then just keep rerolling till they get chars with saws, so I guess that particular example will not work either, but the premise is still there).

[Tehralph]

Yes, it is an abstract scenario without a global trading system like you said, so we really won't need to worry about it.

But to indulge this senario, nails in this case would be hard to do, since nails are relatively plentiful. The arm of this tribe would have to be far reaching (again nearly impossible without a global trading system and fast travel), and more new nails can not turn up faster than this tribe could aquire them. Furthermore, the tribe would have to have a great deal of already obtained resourses to corner the market of nails, because as they are buying more nails, nails will be worth more and more so they will need to pay (trade) more for them at higher prices/items.

However, since it isn't hard to get say 100 nails in 1h, there will be a constant influx of nails to balance their intake and hence this scenario will not happen to nails. However, a type of this monopoly actually does exist, and most people don't know about it. Diamonds aren't a rare item (think about it, it's made from carbon, and carbon is one of the most plentiful elements on the planet). However, Da Beers, does exactly that. When a new diamond mine is found they will buy it out to keep diamonds rare. This is only possible, because of the global economy and fast travel.

On something harder to obtain, for example saws, this could possibily happen. Especially, when/if (I am guessing "when") deteriation of items occurs in game. Saws will become even rarer than they are now, and a tribe or groups of tribes could hoard all the saws and just sell the finished product (i.e. medium wooden handles, etc). This I could see happening, and medium wooden handles could be the currency, if and only if the leader of those tribes with the saw monopoly all agree to a set value.

Again, it will be interesting to see what will happen. I don't fear anything will happen to nails, because they are are plentiful and easy enough to find. The saw analogy on the other hand...could happen in the current state of the game (however, people could then just keep rerolling till they get chars with saws, so I guess that particular example will not work either, but the premise is still there).

I dont believe we will see saws becoming a entirely hoarded item, as the obtained method is quite random, and no single tribe can lock down all the scrap piles. Perhaps when mining comes in things like coal and diamonds MAY become a rare comodity, but not so controllable that only the top people have access to it.