Non Violent forms of PVP

[Soulwanderer]

Added an idea for assassination to my previous post, too.

As for a different style of gameplay for the solo player, if either the game world were larger (as it will eventually be) or it were easier to hide in it (such as in caves-with entrances hidden by waterfalls or brush is an old classic-and the ability to modify cave structures to increase size and defensibility), a solo player, without building traditional defenses, but perhaps constructing more camoflauged defenses, such as walls and structures that blend in to the terrain), could remain quite some time in one location. Of course, a wise solo player (or for that matter, anyone, come to think of it) will have tools and supplies hidden in other, scattered locations, in case a siege on the main location is successful. And of course players who really enjoy exploring and wandering around in the game world would be more likely to find those locations than those who tend to stay put. Want to solo but still want to stay put for a bit and craft or cause trouble in a nearby location? It shouldn't be impossible, if a player is willing to use some time and intelligence to figure out how to do it.

Edit: Right now I could pick any of a half dozen places in the mist to live in if I chose to, and although someone would stumble across my totem eventually, it might take awhile.

I was taking note of small ridges in the mountain areas myself that I thought would be good to tuck a homestead away in once they implement a way to carry water. Camouflage tents aren't a bad idea... in fact, doing away with the totem for homesteaders all together and replacing it with a tent that serves the same purpose and can be deconstructed for moving would be pretty awesome.

It'll be great when they get past the game play destroying bugs going on right now and can get a couple more forums opened up so that player ideas on things like this can be kicked out.

[ifireallymust]

I was scoping out some of the more difficult mesas today, and wishing like crazy there was a way to dig a well or something. Portable tents would be great too, and when pack animals are in game, there's always the potential for players and tribes to become even more nomadic.

I just had a dungeon siege flashback. Excuse me while I go see what killed my poor donkey this time!

Back to assassination, if any profession/play style should merit permadeath for failure, assassin would be it. It would keep the number of assassins to a minimum if it took months to create a good one. I would so play an assassin if that ever happened.

A cave behind a waterfall would be sweet!

Who doesn't love the idea of a hidden cave entrance?

[Belight]

I fully intend to destroy resources and "grief" my unwanted neigbors and enemies as much as possible.

You know why? Because I am a roleplayer. A good one at that... I plan to utilize real life war tactics in leading my band of apocolyptic bandits and ruffians.

Historically there are many instances where "Scorched Earth" military strategies have been utilized by both attackers and defenders. Beating your enemy isn't always about man on man combat.... Sometimes you have to starve them out. Why would I leave you trees to build walls and weapons with? Why would I leave your crops intact so you can have well fed and hearty warriors to fight me with? Why would I leave your rivers flowing and unpoisoned?

"In the Harrying of the North, William the Conqueror's brutal conquest and subjugation of the North of England, William's men burnt whole villages from the Humber to Tees, and slaughtered the inhabitants. Foodstores and livestock were destroyed so that anyone surviving the initial massacre would soon succumb to starvation over the winter. The survivors were reduced to cannibalism, with one report stating that the skulls of the dead were cracked open so that the brains could be eaten. Between 100,000 and 150,000 perished and the area took centuries to recover from the damage."

I will leave a wake of smoking ruin in my path... Why? Because I can. Because I want to. And that's well within the realm of good roleplaying.

History has provided us with many "griefers". Did people sit around and wait for "God" to put artificial limitations on Adolf Hitler? No, people banded together, built a war machine, and whooped his ass. Mind you that many of these people were dirt poor uneducated peaceful farmers like my Grandfather.

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Murder Herd's role in DarkFall was a great example of this. We constantly harrassed everyone that was not in our guild. We killed people by the hundreds on a daily basis. We refused every single offer to ally, to change our ways, and to submit to the massive alliances. CoC offered us elite positions, our own holdings, treasures, etc... Yet we still told them to stuff it up their asses because we had integrity and stuck to our chosen roleplay and playstyle despite it's downfalls.

This resulted in about 30 guilds equaling about 300 people sieging our city. It was an epic battle. If it weren't for the general douchebaggery of the CoC I'd say it was a perfect example of the player base governing itself and absolutely a great example of the politics that can evolve in an open world. Unfortunatly Darkfall turn out to be poopy not long after that and almost everyone quit... but that's beside the point.
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So enough with this whiney griefing shit. There are people in the world that want to hurt and destroy for no other reason than to watch their victims suffer. That's reality, and Xsyon should be no different. You can't have good without evil. So learn deal with it in game, learn to appreciate it for the dynamics it can bring, or find something else to play.

[maelwydd]

You know why? Because I am a roleplayer...

While I understand the point you are making, the developers have stated that using the excuse or justification you are roleplaying will not be accepted. I am a roleplayer and accept that stance and understand it.

Also, there will eventually be very heavy penalties to those who decide to play "evil". Personally I would only ever consider playing evil WHEN these rules are itroduced and as long as people do not complain about it then all is good.

On a side note, seeing as this is a sandbox game, would you accept having your character put into a jail if caught comitting a crime on my land? Just out of interest?

[Belight]

While I understand the point you are making, the developers have stated that using the excuse or justification you are roleplaying will not be accepted. I am a roleplayer and accept that stance and understand it.

Also, there will eventually be very heavy penalties to those who decide to play "evil". Personally I would only ever consider playing evil WHEN these rules are itroduced and as long as people do not complain about it then all is good.

On a side note, seeing as this is a sandbox game, would you accept having your character put into a jail if caught comitting a crime on my land? Just out of interest?

If rolepalying is not an acceptable reason for being evil then this game will amount to shit... Hope the devs keep that in mind.

Jail? Absolutely not. Why would I pay for a game that I'm not able to play?

I fully support penalties for being evil. However, if the penalties are not there, who's fault is it but the devs? Am I supposed to regulate my chosen playstyle because of poor or broken game design?

[Dubanka]

On a side note, seeing as this is a sandbox game, would you accept having your character put into a jail if caught comitting a crime on my land? Just out of interest?

Only if i could kidnap you, hold you for ransom, or just hold you because i felt like it.

actually...you know what. sure.
you could put me in jail.
and you know what would happen? an entirely new level of pain.

Are you willing to be subjected to constant raiding and harassment (ie. killing and resource destruction)?
we'd be in your backyard so often that we'd feel like neighbors.
Ever been afraid to walk out your door? you would.
You want to imprison me or one of mine? you'll wish you hadn't.

I'd even go one further, I would make it my mission, to protest the imprisonment of any who were wrongfully imprisoned for crimes, large or small, on the basis that they did not receive due process under the legal system and were in fact discriminated against based upon their political beliefs. You put someone is prison, be prepared to be held accountable for your actions. Although, i'm sure you're going to say this is griefing and I shoudl be banned

[maelwydd]

This is what always makes me laugh about this type of debate, the complete and utter one sided and selfish attitudes of people who want sandbox FFA PvP.

They WANT sandbox but only for THEIR idea's.
They WANT FFA but not if you suggest a way to hurt THEM back.
They WANT PvP but only if it is THEM winning.

Added after 5 minutes:

If rolepalying is not an acceptable reason for being evil then this game will amount to shit... Hope the devs keep that in mind.

Unfortunately we are BOTH a very small minority in today's MMO world. Roleplaying is about as popular are testicular cancer. So unfortunately even though I respect your roleplaying stance, you are wrong that not supporting a certain type of roleplaying will cause the game to fail.

Roleplaying is just not that popular except in very niche and usually privately run games such as Neverwinter (and even there griefing is not accepted).

Jail? Absolutely not. Why would I pay for a game that I'm not able to play?

If you are griefing me for your roleplaying ideals are you not stopping me from playing?

I fully support penalties for being evil. However, if the penalties are not there, who's fault is it but the devs? Am I supposed to regulate my chosen playstyle because of poor or broken game design?

Well, at the moment you can't do jack because safe zones are in. Accept it or move on.

Only if i could kidnap you, hold you for ransom, or just hold you because i felt like it.

actually...you know what. sure.
you could put me in jail.
and you know what would happen? an entirely new level of pain.

Are you willing to be subjected to constant raiding and harassment (ie. killing and resource destruction)?
we'd be in your backyard so often that we'd feel like neighbors.
Ever been afraid to walk out your door? you would.
You want to imprison me or one of mine? you'll wish you hadn't.

I'd even go one further, I would make it my mission, to protest the imprisonment of any who were wrongfully imprisoned for crimes, large or small, on the basis that they did not receive due process under the legal system and were in fact discriminated against based upon their political beliefs. You put someone is prison, be prepared to be held accountable for your actions. Although, i'm sure you're going to say this is griefing and I shoudl be banned

The question was directed at someone who was at least offering the fact that they are a true roleplayer as a REASON for being evil. So it is directed at someone who roleplays. If you are indeed a roleplayer (and not just saying you are to elicite and reply) then I will answer you, otherwise the question was not for you.

[Dubanka]

This is what always makes me laugh about this type of debate, the complete and utter one sided and selfish attitudes of people who want sandbox FFA PvP.

They WANT sandbox but only for THEIR idea's.
They WANT FFA but not if you suggest a way to hurt THEM back.
They WANT PvP but only if it is THEM winning.

Not sure what you point is.

I'm fine with you having your little jail.
In fact i'd DARE you to use it.

I haven't waivered in my stance - more restrictions = more extreme retributional behavior.

If you make me lose half my stat points when i die? well, i'm just going to do my best to ensure that I don't die.
You want to lock me in jail if you 'catch me'. Sure. Dare ya. We'll see about what my friends think about that.
You want to give heavy penalties for 'playing evil'. Great. Ill start out as good, and work my way there, wash rinse repeat.
You make the restrictions/penalties too egregious? Been fun. Later. You'll get that game of patty-cake you always wanted.

Bottom line: you want want to live in a beautiful coastal somalian villa...well attended by pleasant servants, friends and family; but want a guarantee to not be bothered by any of the chaos surrounding you. Unless you invest in the appropriate level of protection, that is simply not gonna happen...and even if you do invest in it, the odds of it happening to at least a small degree at some point, are quite large. sorry.

*edit*

The question was directed at someone who was at least offering the fact that they are a true roleplayer as a REASON for being evil. So it is directed at someone who roleplays. If you are indeed a roleplayer (and not just saying you are to elicite and reply) then I will answer you, otherwise the question was not for you.

ooh elitist too. and yes, I can qualify as a role player...as one who led a strict lore temple guild in a fully arac (any race any class) ffa pvp game (shadowbane), and did so competently enough to thrive even while enduring self imposed restrictions the significantly hampered our combat capability when compared to our opponents.
Ordo Castum Carnifex

[maelwydd]

Bottom line: you want want to live in a beautiful coastal somalian villa...well attended by pleasant servants, friends and family; but want a guarantee to not be bothered by any of the chaos surrounding you. Unless you invest in the appropriate level of protection, that is simply not gonna happen...and even if you do invest in it, the odds of it happening to at least a small degree at some point, are quite large. sorry.

Actually bottom line is....I want balance and to play with people that realise a game is ment to be FUN FOR ALL> Not selfish people.

I have played on fully enforced NWN servers where the game was about as sandbox as you can get because there was always a GM present for any PvP that took place. There you could be Evil and kill another player...permanently. But you WOULD suffer the consequences, one of which was, permanently being imprissoned. What that actually ment was, for every level of the character you killed you would have to spend a real life day in prison before your character was permanently killed and you were allowed to make a new character.

People played and ccepted this because 1 they were roleplayers and 2 they knew there would be consequences and 3 they knew that if they didn't like it and tried to grief others (and yes, tehy had very good rules on the distinction between playing evil and griefing) they would simply be banned from the game (the beauty of a free game).

SO I am totally up for jail of you are.

[Dubanka]

what you're describing isnt a sandbox.
that is called a 'managed event'.
the world you describe is a nanny state...where you have someone watching your every move to make sure you don't step outside of some preordained set of rules/laws/restrictions...and if you did there were severe consequences. That is not a sandbox.

sandbox is make your own rules. make your own laws. and of course figure out how to enforce them.

it's a sandbox because the player shapes their reality...they don't just fall into someone else's pre-set version of it...and if you don't like the reality you've dropped into, then you have the power to change it. The key concept is that the players have the power to enforce whatever vision they want. It's up to the devs to deliver us a (working) game that gives the tools to the players to effectively control and manage the world. There are alread a ton of games out there where you get to play in a dev imagined reality with preset rules and standards.

oh, and to your question...i will absolutely not play a game that dictates how i have to play it. If i want to play an evil entity...great i should be able to. If i want to play as the good guy...great i should be able to. The funny thing is, we typically try to allign ourselves to the side that stands the have the most fighting to do. In this game that very well may be protecting the crafter states. You just can't do a game like this then try to shove it into some pre-conceived box.