Macro Philosophy

[jokhul]

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.

I read an interesting op-ed article in the New York Times a while ago. The author was talking about the latest version of the classic Monopoly boardgame, which is aimed at young children. Apparently it has a built-in anti-cheat microprocessor that regulates the gameplay to eliminate cheating. The author was very concerned about this, because it would give children the idea that cheating is BAD, and would make them subservient law-abiding citizens ! According to him, cheating is creative and challenges the "accepted status quo".

So there you have it, folks ! Combining Robert Merton's ideas and the above author, we can conclude that cheating and criminal behaviour (non-violent, of course) should actually be encouraged and rewarded ! It is the epitome of true entrepreneurial spirit !

It appears that we've all had the wrong idea. Cheating is not bad, it's actually just finding "creative and innovative" ways to achieve our goals !

Next time someone is banned for macroing, shed a silent tear for another "innovator" that has been crushed by the heavy hand of authority...

[ColonelTEE3]

I read an interesting op-ed article in the New York Times a while ago. The author was talking about the latest version of the classic Monopoly boardgame, which is aimed at young children. Apparently it has a built-in anti-cheat microprocessor that regulates the gameplay to eliminate cheating. The author was very concerned about this, because it would give children the idea that cheating is BAD, and would make them subservient law-abiding citizens ! According to him, cheating is creative and challenges the "accepted status quo".

So there you have it, folks ! Combining Robert Merton's ideas and the above author, we can conclude that cheating and criminal behaviour (non-violent, of course) should actually be encouraged and rewarded ! It is the epitome of true entrepreneurial spirit !

It appears that we've all had the wrong idea. Cheating is not bad, it's actually just finding "creative and innovative" ways to achieve our goals !

Next time someone is banned for macroing, shed a silent tear for another "innovator" that has been crushed by the heavy hand of authority...

First of all, i don't believe macroing is interchangeable with "cheating". Second of all, i think the article you bring up is less relevant here. That author was making the remark that cheating shouldn't be considered bad because it may have redeeming intrinsic qualities, and i don't really subscribe to that kind of thinking. Merton never suggested that innovation (economically motivated criminal behavior) should be rewarded, or that it was a good thing. I think you misread me there somewhere. Instead, he's saying that it is an unfortunate result that innovation occurs under certain circumstances due to the system that has facilitated it. No where in reading Robert Merton can you make the conclusion that criminal behavior should be rewarded. It simply doesn't follow.

I am not glad macroing exists in xsyon. However, i do not think those who macro should be condemned for reacting to the circumstances of the system of the game they play. The goals are present and obvious -- competitive edges such as power, ability, deadliness, effectiveness, efficiency -- but the means to doing that legitimately (normal, casual game play fitting into work, school and family schedules) are not adding up. People want to be competitive but can't always match the power games with 8+ hours of gaming a day. This is what happened in Darkfall. This is what is now happening in Xsyon.

Thank you, however, for having a little more to add to the discussion than "ifireallymustsaysomethingevenifitsworthlessIw ill"

[xsuman80]

I dont like macro and hate them in DF - becouse they kill almost all good in DF.
I dont want see Xsyon as Macros-game.
There are mentioned some advices how made macroses useless. Simply - just made some minigame on crafting and gathering. Yes it can risk your pvp while you be in mini-game - but it can resolve macrosing.
Now fishing - most boring action in game. You sit in water and need press 1 key long time. Some tell already - made fishing more interesting - look at some MMO projects where you can fishing. I recommended you look at game "Atom Fishing" - there really intresting gameplay - and it cant be macrosed. Or add fish spotes that move every 1-4 minutes - so you need seek them visuality.
Another crafts now is most anti-macro then it be if you not need choose every thing and tool to make 1 piece of item.
Terraform - you can just stand and press all time make road or clear - and you slowly gain this skill. Now terraforming skill really dont matter - and on 25 and on 99 it same effect have.
weapon rising - dont let rise this skills on players. Yes is difficult - but it made more good for game and it stop macroed weapon skills.
As mentioned dont let run, swim, jump rising while you stand in one point.
Sorry for my English. I know it really bad - but I want to good evolve of this game - so this is why I there)

[Redus]

I notice a trend in this thread. People just assume that if people macro there AFK as well or even use them to do things that do it faster. Not everyone who macro's does that. I create macro's to make a game more user friendly and to soften the stress on my wrists. In this game this could mean making a macro that takes a resource from the resource window (So right click using a key on the keyboard instead of the mouse), just one off course or that it selects raise, level low or whatever from the terraforming window. This would simply mean I could play the game only using my keyboard, but would not let me do things faster....

Being behind the computer a lot (Reading news, Programming, gaming, posting, schoolwork, etc) I try to use the keyboard as much as I can (shortcuts and the like). So I do not see anything wrong with such macro's in games. I do dislike it when people use them to automate stuff though, but really not too bothered. I catch up eventually and if they prefer to play there game that way good for them! Why would I care if someone plays a lot and outskills me and kills me or if someone macro's and does the same? My game in no-way changes because of it, beside that fact you might have to fight some more people who are better or are later to cater to market segments on the current market.

I simply accepted the fact that there will always be people who are simply better then me in skills points and actual skill. I will die in PvP and people can craft better items then me. I try to ally or avoid those people who are stronger and trade with those that have better items if I have something to offer.

[ifireallymust]

I know a lot of the macroers are pvpers and want safe zones gone ASAP.

Guess what, cheaters?

No.

Now we'll all need to catch up with you in every possible combat skill before safe zones could possibly be removable.

I'd go so far as to ask other players who don't cheat to come out against the ability to expand into new areas that have no safe zones until everyone who started playing at this past launch and who has put a reasonable number of hours into the game is caught up with the cheaters. Otherwise, the new areas will be overrun by nothing but mega tribes and macro-cheaters, and mega tribes full of macro cheaters.

Ban them, or make sure we all have a chance to catch up before their cheating gives them a real edge, please.

I prefer banning, myself. Wish it were up to me.

[outfctrl]

OR you could make a game where, even if you macro, you don't get that much advantage.

And you could add things like hunger, thirst, and stat decay. You could make it so having a macro'd character doesn't make that much difference.



Your ideas are actually good, I just already don't see the problem.

Okay I see the problem - it's that people are still hung up on macros from Darkfall.

Actually, you can macro all of those using a timer for food and drink.

[Zenmaster13]

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.

Well, it seems that "dead wrong" would be a bit strong, considering you are actually supporting my argument. Now just to clear things up for you, because your smugness is quite apparent. I have also read many 101 books, but i keep proceeding beyond the novice work. In fact, I also add my own work and reasoning to whatever I learn. I will not quote someone else, and act as if it was my idea. Then, proceed to act as if I have won. This is one of the problems of education, to much inside the book, not enough outside. This however is off topic.

On topic: I thought about it last night. Here is a question for any macroer. If an "I Win" button was added to a game, and when you pressed it, you recieved every item, every skill maxed, as many PVP wins as you wanted, zero losses, every craft skill maxed, every meta-game topped, etc. would you press it?

[bruisie159]

There was an interesting thread just removed from the forum after being up for just about 5 mins. It was a screenshot of a convo between a player and guide. The player reported a guy for macro ing scav. Unfortunately although the poster anonymised the macroers name he left the guides in.

This should be ok though as im mentioning no names. Basically the guide acknowledged the incident was happening and came for a look. He then said "he knew the guy" and would not report him this time. He did teleport him away from the scrap pile though. Now, imo thats not good enough. Especially if your reason for not taking action is having some kind of links with the "offender".

Not setting a good example as far as preventing a macro fest imo

[Jadzia]

I know a lot of the macroers are pvpers and want safe zones gone ASAP.

Guess what, cheaters?

No.

Now we'll all need to catch up with you in every possible combat skill before safe zones could possibly be removable.

I'd go so far as to ask other players who don't cheat to come out against the ability to expand into new areas that have no safe zones until everyone who started playing at this past launch and who has put a reasonable number of hours into the game is caught up with the cheaters. Otherwise, the new areas will be overrun by nothing but mega tribes and macro-cheaters, and mega tribes full of macro cheaters.

Ban them, or make sure we all have a chance to catch up before their cheating gives them a real edge, please.

I prefer banning, myself. Wish it were up to me.

I agree, and wish it was up to you !

[Dontaze_Mebro]

There was an interesting thread just removed from the forum after being up for just about 5 mins. It was a screenshot of a convo between a player and guide. The player reported a guy for macro ing scav. Unfortunately although the poster anonymised the macroers name he left the guides in.

This should be ok though as im mentioning no names. Basically the guide acknowledged the incident was happening and came for a look. He then said "he knew the guy" and would not report him this time. He did teleport him away from the scrap pile though. Now, imo thats not good enough. Especially if your reason for not taking action is having some kind of links with the "offender".

Not setting a good example as far as preventing a macro fest imo

Wow... That just took my hopes for this game down another notch.

This didn't happen to be in zone 941 did it?