War, taking towns & forts

[NorCalGooey]

Whats all this talk about special resources? Jooky has never even said one thing about giving special resources to pvp players so why is this issue getting blown up like it's going to be in the game? This will never happen cause it's not fair to pve players to force them to have to pvp to get them.

If special resources where added to the game in pvp spots then it should be only to make pvp war machines and such and nothing to do with special pvp gear and weapons that can be used out side of the pvp area. that would be giving a pvp player so much advantage over any pve player that roames out side there homestead or tribal area right now.

Seperate zones for pvp or servers.

We all know you are a full blown pvp player MrDDT and where you stand and if you was the dev where the game would head. But you are not and jooky clearly stated long before you'll came here and the game went into beta this was not a full blown pvp game and again later when the pvp player base blew up he said it again.
Which is clearly why i would suggest a pvp zone or a pvp server so this full blown pvp can exsist to make your side happy as well as the pvp side.

Why should someone who doesn't want to fight, deserve to have an equal chance IN COMBAT when roaming in FFA LAND??? If they have no fighting stats, never practice combat at all, why should they be just as strong and have just as great of armor and weapons as a warrior??

It just doesn't make sense and you need to reread your post. You are being completely selfish here.

There could easily be BETTER PVP resources in the War Areas and BETTER crafting resources in the Safe Areas. Then all is fair....

Oh wait then you will whine and say "Well PVP players can come get the crafting resources in the Safe Area easily but we can't go get the PVP resources in the War Area because we might break a nail"

Give me a break...seriously.

Fix that by making a cap on crafting skills for combat based players. Where resources above that skill are required to make the item. That way crafters will actually be needed and warriors won't be able to make their own high level gear. But then the warriors can bring the crafters high risk PVP mats and they can work well together that way, see what I'm saying?

Just need to balance both of them out and make them codependent, to an extent

[Arkonick]

Why should someone who doesn't want to fight, deserve to have an equal chance IN COMBAT when roaming in FFA LAND??? If they have no fighting stats, never practice combat at all, why should they be just as strong and have just as great of armor and weapons as a warrior??

It just doesn't make sense and you need to reread your post. You are being completely selfish here.

There could easily be BETTER PVP resources in the War Areas and BETTER crafting resources in the Safe Areas. Then all is fair....

Oh wait then you will whine and say "Well PVP players can come get the crafting resources in the Safe Area easily but we can't go get the PVP resources in the War Area because we might break a nail"

Give me a break...seriously.

Fix that by making a cap on crafting skills for combat based players. Where resources above that skill are required to make the item. That way crafters will actually be needed and warriors won't be able to make their own high level gear. But then the warriors can bring the crafters high risk PVP mats and they can work well together that way, see what I'm saying?

Just need to balance both of them out and make them codependent, to an extent

For one Pve players dont care for pvp resources so they wouldn't complain about not getting them or even to have to go get them cause they could care less for pvp.
As for pvp players getting special resources to make special weapons and gear making it harder to be killed would be unfair to pve players being forced in pvp combat min they walk out of there tribe or homestead to go hunt animals or get sand from the lake or to even cut down trees go get junk or twigs, cause there is always going to be that pvp player base that will attack the pve player who don't want nothing to do with pvp and to not even have a chance to defend them selves is OP.

Thats why pvp needs to have a tiotal seperate zone and pve needs it's own zone or seperate servers.

There is no way you can make both exsist! "I don't care what eve or any other mmo is doing that you'll say works! Thats why your here and not there?" The reason your here is like the rest of us the game you played is dying or dead and nothing to do so you went searching for a new mmo to give you some fun. When coming to a sandbox you can't one side the sand box to your liking you have to look at it from all angles.

[MrDDT]

Whats all this talk about special resources? Jooky has never even said one thing about giving special resources to pvp players so why is this issue getting blown up like it's going to be in the game? This will never happen cause it's not fair to pve players to force them to have to pvp to get them.

If special resources where added to the game in pvp spots then it should be only to make pvp war machines and such and nothing to do with special pvp gear and weapons that can be used out side of the pvp area. that would be giving a pvp player so much advantage over any pve player that roames out side there homestead or tribal area right now.

Seperate zones for pvp or servers.

We all know you are a full blown pvp player MrDDT and where you stand and if you was the dev where the game would head. But you are not and jooky clearly stated long before you'll came here and the game went into beta this was not a full blown pvp game and again later when the pvp player base blew up he said it again.
Which is clearly why i would suggest a pvp zone or a pvp server so this full blown pvp can exsist to make your side happy as well as the pvp side.

My ideal play-style is likely something you wont believe.
Im mostly a crafter. But I want a reason to craft. I trade and make monies off the econ of people. Mostly I find the best way to make monies is through strife in game, over resources, land and political outbreaks.

I normally build up vast cities and have many many crafting skills in which to trade and normally try to corner the market. Sometimes I even use force with PVP either myself, hire, or my tribe to force people out of rare resource areas.
This causes strife, and causes me also to become a target for intense PVP. So I tend to also have another account for PVP. In-which I will go out and hunt other players, defend my tribe, and claim resources.


What you wont see me doing is, building up just for the sake of building, because it looks cool, or pretty. You dont see me trading or giving something to someone because its the nice thing to do, or people will respect me for it.

I build friendships through trust, and hard-work, as I have done in life. I dont expect people to give me hand-outs but I also dont expect to have to give them either.

So saying Im a full blown PVPer is something Im ashamed to be but I would also say, its not something I am. I believe myself to be a mix of the 2. I even like to play games like Diablo 3 because of the PVE, and Raids on RIFT. But doing something just for kicks, isnt something Im into. I need reasons.

Killing a player isnt fun to me unless there is a reward. It could be a simple as full loot, or maybe protecting my tribe lands from a spy, or protecting resources. But just doing duels and killing someone for kicks. Nope not my idea of fun. I would rather be doing something, even just mining resources than just killing someone for no reward.

You can ask around people here, I was one of the largest crafters in Roma Victor.

[Arkonick]

But my point is you are here looking only from your point of view and insist the game should be this way to tailor to your play style. All I'm saying is you can't do this and have a player base cause this game has attracted pve full blown to the pve/pvp and the full blown pvp player. if you tailor to one side the other sides will leave making such a small player base you want have any fun.

You like both my bad at first you come off as a pvp player cause your conversations are tailored more to it than pve. but not all them full blown pve players are going to curve to your ideas. If the game goes your side then all them full blown pve players will leave population will go down alot. To keep these people you need to give even if you don't like it.

One major reason you want them even if you play on a pvp server and pve and pvp are seperate from servers is the money it draws in to develop the game more and faster by a bigger dev department. In game econemy isnt nothing compared to the econemy of funds coming in to dev the game.

[NorCalGooey]

For one Pve players dont care for pvp resources so they wouldn't complain about not getting them or even to have to go get them cause they could care less for pvp.
As for pvp players getting special resources to make special weapons and gear making it harder to be killed would be unfair to pve players being forced in pvp combat min they walk out of there tribe or homestead to go hunt animals or get sand from the lake or to even cut down trees go get junk or twigs, cause there is always going to be that pvp player base that will attack the pve player who don't want nothing to do with pvp and to not even have a chance to defend them selves is OP.

Thats why pvp needs to have a tiotal seperate zone and pve needs it's own zone or seperate servers.

There is no way you can make both exsist! "I don't care what eve or any other mmo is doing that you'll say works! Thats why your here and not there?" The reason your here is like the rest of us the game you played is dying or dead and nothing to do so you went searching for a new mmo to give you some fun. When coming to a sandbox you can't one side the sand box to your liking you have to look at it from all angles.

Can the same not be said about the PVE PLAYERS CHOICE to have PVE STATS???

"PVP PLAYERS CHOSE BETTER COMBAT STATS THAN ME QQ QQ QQ QQ THEY HAVE BETTER CHANCE TO KILL ME NOW"

Same thing can be said about gear. They should get the better gear because they are warriors who have the ability to use this gear. Not any old peasant or someone who hasn't trained for it can equip any armor and be efficient with it. You are bullshitting yourself if you think so. There's a reason all the SOLIDERS were LARGER MEN...because they were the most phsyically able to wield the gear in combat and the most physically able to fight combat.

In this game you can see PvP players as soldiers/warriors and PvE players as citizens...crafters, architects, scientists, etc...that's generally how it is anyways


edit: and you have no idea where I came from. I haven't played MMOs in years this is the first one worth playing and I'm trying to help make it even more worth playing.

But my point is you are here looking only from your point of view and insist the game should be this way to tailor to your play style. All I'm saying is you can't do this and have a player base cause this game has attracted pve full blown to the pve/pvp and the full blown pvp player. if you tailor to one side the other sides will leave making such a small player base you want have any fun.

You like both my bad at first you come off as a pvp player cause your conversations are tailored more to it than pve. but not all them full blown pve players are going to curve to your ideas. If the game goes your side then all them full blown pve players will leave population will go down alot. To keep these people you need to give even if you don't like it.

One major reason you want them even if you play on a pvp server and pve and pvp are seperate from servers is the money it draws in to develop the game more and faster by a bigger dev department. In game econemy isnt nothing compared to the econemy of funds coming in to dev the game.

Read my solution!! it doesn't tailor to any sides...damnit just read it and refute each point part by part

Ok, here's my idea how to make Xsyon and the full spectrum of players from PVP DIE HARD CAREBEAR to PVE DIE HARD CAREBEAR get along much better.



For this system, the 120meter world we all live in now I will call Safe Totem Land. The green mist which Jordi says may be expanded to 1200KM I will call War Totem Land.

This is the best my mind can come up with...for now. But I'm really thinking about this here and want to see it work. Keep the suggestions coming as we are all helping to shape the devs final product.

When a tribe is created, the tribe has three options for it's totems.

a) PVE - can place ONE totem in Safe Totem Land and have FULL safety zone protections like we currently have in game. CAN ALSO place ONE EXPANSION totem in Safe Totem Land, which has no safe zone at all, but the totem cannot be captured (this would be used to give PVE players a chance to PVP, but still have that ultimate safe zone. Basically, safe zone expansion totems could fight each other and loot and destroy buildings but never win the totem)

b) PVE/PVP - can place ONE totem in Safe Totem Land and have NO safety zone protections. Only protection to the totem contols and abilities (terraforming, setting ranks, etc) itself. It can never be claimed captured other tribes.
CAN ALSO place ONE war totem in the War Totem Land. This totem has no protections whatsoever. The totem can be captured by other tribes at any time. How to balance the capture system, especially how long it will
take to capture a totem, is up to the devs however. I really have no idea how to balance that part of the system this early in the game.



Only problem is tribes will always be able to abuse alt safe zone tribes for precious goods. Which is why I personally would like to see it so the only SAFETY is the totem control itself. Everyone's totem's everywhere should be free loot and destroyable resources, with warring totems involved still of course which allow for totem/land capture. However, I acknowledge both sides of the spectrum and that's why I came up with the solution above.




Everyone join in with ideas and feel free to hate my suggestions all you want Just don't hate me

edit: And yes of course, better resources should be in the War Totem Land.

EDIT: DUHHH...or just allow the PVE Safe Totem players to have the option to war with other Safe Totems. If they choose to war both safe zones are removed, but no totem capture. Or maybe have a second option WITH totem capture too. This would allow for SAFE TOTEM LAND CAPTURE, but it would have to be a MUTUAL agreement to the war before the safe zones are removed. Oh, and the safe zones would only be removed for the two tribes the war is between. No other tribes can interfere. Also, tribes with a War Totem and Safe Totem (that is only safe from land capture, remember) could use this feature as well. A mutual agreement between two tribes that could potentially wipe one tribe off the face of the map.

That or option A) above ^^^ would work pretty well

and ugh I forgot to add

c) PVP - can place TWO totems in the warfare zone. BOTH TOTEMS are fully capture able and no safe zone. If one is captured, you cannot place another. You must capture it back. If both are captured, you can change your tribe back to a PVE or PVE/PVP tribe and replace your totems according to those systems



so thank you actually, for making me remember the die hard PVP crowd with option C

and actually the only thing the PVP DIE HARDS wouldn't like about C) is that they can't place unlimited totems.

[MrDDT]

But my point is you are here looking only from your point of view and insist the game should be this way to tailor to your play style. All I'm saying is you can't do this and have a player base cause this game has attracted pve full blown to the pve/pvp and the full blown pvp player. if you tailor to one side the other sides will leave making such a small player base you want have any fun.

You like both my bad at first you come off as a pvp player cause your conversations are tailored more to it than pve. but not all them full blown pve players are going to curve to your ideas. If the game goes your side then all them full blown pve players will leave population will go down alot. To keep these people you need to give even if you don't like it.

One major reason you want them even if you play on a pvp server and pve and pvp are seperate from servers is the money it draws in to develop the game more and faster by a bigger dev department. In game econemy isnt nothing compared to the econemy of funds coming in to dev the game.

I know this about the money, but if that were a good reason why not just make WOW2?

You have to read Jordi's ideas for the game then understand why Im saying what Im saying. I agree no everyone will like what I say, I also believe that not everyone will like what you have to say. No matter what it is, not everyone will like it. Everyone doesnt have to like it. The devs have to like it.

Xsyon is making the game how they see fit. They dont need to hear "We will quit if you do X" but they do need to hear are systems that can be put into place that work.
You dont want to give them the option "Put 2 servers in" when that wont fix the problem of players not having enough PVP, or PVEers not having enough of a world. Because BOTH servers will be lacking players thus both will fail.

You dont want to put into a system where say everyone can attack everyone anywhere, because then no one is happy. PVEers wont stand for that, and PVPers wont want that because there will be too few people playing.

You dont want a system where 100% safe areas, because then you will be lacking in other issues even though you will have tons of people playing, you will be lacking econ, and strife. Which then falls short of what the devs want.

So you need to come up with a good system that works. Sure is my system perfect for everyone? No, because there is no system that will ever work for that. But will my system work? Yes. Will it work for what the devs have planned? Yes.

Unlike Jadiza's system it wont work, because she will be unhappy with people exploit the things she has in place. The devs wont be happy because it doesnt work and no one will be happy. (Ive already pointed out how to exploit these, and her answer was, well clearly we need 2 servers then. Which means we are back to square one with her system not working).

A system like mine, or Norcal's are so far the only ones Ive seen that can work. Now Im sure there are tons of tweaking needed to be done to it, but please show us faults in that system. Remember you must read what has been put out by the Devs. They dont want a 100% no conflict area.

[Jadzia]

Because Tribe A spends 100% of their time out in the PVP areas at risk, while Tribe B uses safe areas to do all the crafting and then logs in at downtime and moves the items where they need it for war. See how that can be done?
You right it is "fair" because both sides can do it, but that does mean they want to do it. Thats now how they want to fight. Just as they dont want to fight bare fisted without weapons or armor. Sure its fair for both sides, but they DONT want to fight like that. They want the tools in the game to fight. Weapons, tactics and resources. These are the tools to combat. You are trying to remove an important tool from this combat system by allowing tribes to gear up other tribes without fear, because they can do it safely.

Or tribe B can log in at downtime and craft in peace even on PvP land. You can't control everything in a game. And if there was a special resource added which was required to craft PvP weapons then they could control that resource and have fun by that.

Ahh it will be exploited by both. You pveers will drop a safe area right next to a limited resource, and POOF nothing anyone can do about you being there thus you are exploiting the system. Please try not to play this card here, its just sad.

We are talking about a system where there are 2 big area, a PvP one and a safe one. No one could drop safe zones anywhere only the devs, so the system could be exploited only by the PvPers.

People would come back for OPEN pvp? WTH? I dont believe this, the PVPers I know have left because combat is broken, with lag and other issues. NOT because of safe zone issue. It hasnt even got to that point yet.
Guess we will disagree here. But I dont see how you can believe that.

I thought you were worried about the PvE server's population. If PvPers have already left then I see even less reason to restrict non-PvPers because of them.
But if they fix combat I do believe they would come back to a PvP server.

Being that Im not a dev I cant, I would love to see it added. I would love to seem 100s of them added.
What resources are needed for PVE and safe zone areas? Only ones I can think of are basic ones, like lumber, sand, etc. Which are already in game.

There are no rare resources in the game and we still talk about them. So I mean every resource which may be added later, everything that is needed for building and crafting.

Added after 26 minutes:

.

Unlike Jadiza's system it wont work, because she will be unhappy with people exploit the things she has in place. The devs wont be happy because it doesnt work and no one will be happy. (Ive already pointed out how to exploit these, and her answer was, well clearly we need 2 servers then. Which means we are back to square one with her system not working).

Again, no idea what you are talking about. I'm not worried about exploitation, its you who is. The suggestion I made with a fairly split server could work very well for PvE players, you are the one who says its not good for PvP players because they will exploit it. I answered how to avoid exploits, Book answered too, so the system can work very well. I only said that we need 2 servers when you insisted that PvP players should be treated specially and PvE players should be limited to a tiny starter zone.

[MrDDT]

Or tribe B can log in at downtime and craft in peace even on PvP land. You can't control everything in a game.

Huh? How is that safe? If they can be attacked in PVP areas they can be attacked. You are not making sense here fact sounds like you trying to pull a fast one.

We are talking about a system where there are 2 big area, a PvP one and a safe one. No one could drop safe zones anywhere only the devs, so the system could be exploited only by the PvPers.

I dont see how these system can be exploited by PVPers, I already said I dont care how big the areas are, its about resources, and anywhere anytime issues. So yes great, have 100000km PVE area I dont care. Just dont have rare resources on there, dont allow them easy ways to craft and give those items to PVPers, and dont allow them to place totems in the PVP area anywhere and at anytime they want.

Sounds like we are in agreement here.

I thought you were worried about the PvE server's population. If PvPers have already left then I see even less reason to restrict non-PvPers because of them.
But if they fix combat I do believe they would come back to a PvP server.

So because a group of people left because combat isnt working you want to just change the whole game so they will never come back? That doesnt make much sense, plus its not even what Xsyon wants.
I agree fixing combat is the key to bringing PVPers back.
Sounds like another agreement here. Fix combat will bring people back.

There are no rare resources in the game and we still talk about them. So I mean every resource which may be added later, everything that is needed for building and crafting.

I would say there are rare resources in game (human bones anyone?). But thats besides the point. Im more than happy to allow PVEers to build and craft stuff, however, like I said before. They shouldnt have rare resources or if they do then very limited amounts of them. So we in agreement here.

Added after 26 minutes:


Again, no idea what you are talking about. I'm not worried about exploitation, its you who is. The suggestion I made with a fairly split server could work very well for PvE players, you are the one who says its not good for PvP players because they will exploit it. I answered how to avoid exploits, Book answered too, so the system can work very well. I only said that we need 2 servers when you insisted that PvP players should be treated specially and PvE players should be limited to a tiny starter zone.

You are not worried about exploitation? Wow, Im sorry, but I kinda figured you would being as you are trying to put in ideas of how a server should handle PVE/PVP players. If you dont think of exploitation, then that means you didnt think through your ideas very well. Which clearly shows why they dont work well as an idea.

I never said PVEers should be limited to a tiny starter area. Ive still said that I dont care how big the area is, plus I dont see how you believe they are limited to those areas, they can leave that area anytime they want. I think you mean where the PVE areas are limited in size. But I think I already answered that a few times in this tread and others.
Size of the area doesnt matter to me, its about the other issues. Limited resources, anywhere, and anytime safety etc. So we are in agreement here. Big area for PVEers.

All in all I dont really know why you are disagreeing. I do see some points you are trying to push for, but really no valid points to back them up.

I dont want a system that will be able to be easy to exploit, I want a reason to fight, and I want everyone to have things they want. Ive listed these things already. I still see my system as sound for both you (PVEers) and PVPers.

[Arkonick]

Roflmao Dudes I guess I'm going to have to set you down infront of me with a chalk board and draw it out for you seeing you clearly don't see the pve players side of things.

Right now as it stands if your in a tribe you have x amount of space to roam in once you pass that in to the rest of the world you are a free kill target even if you are on someone elses tribal land. Why because it isn't your tribes land. You have to be on your tribal land other wise i can kill you on any one elses tribal land. This is a example...This clearly means tribal land is a 30x30 square rest of the land around that tribe is 20,000 x 20,000 square this means to every player in that tribe the pvp playing field is 20,970 square and seeing you dont belong to the tribe across the street or down the road you are not protected by there tribal totem cause well put simply you are not in there tribe and are still on pvp land to anyone hunting you.

So your answer is to increase war totems to increase your battle field? I'm not getting it! you already have 20,970 feet of battle arena now you want the pve players to give up the only 30x 30 square of safe net? I'm not getting it! Add special resources in the pvp lands for people want to pvp? Hum seeing only safe net for a pve player is the little 30x30 square earth the tribe is on and every thing out side that is pvp land if tribe don't have tree's you screwed if you need would. Forcement of pvp right there have to enter pvp land where at any point you can be killed by players so no wood to day.

I don't understand why there is talk of more pvp land when you have the entire zone that was made except them 30x30 tribe sections and then there only for the members in that specific tribe. So if your crossed the lake to visit a friend in another tribe you are subject to pvp and crossing that lake is no joy.

I see pvp having more land than any pve player already yet you cry for more and war totems to have even more safty nets. and cry if a pve play has asked for a safty net totem so they can have the extra totem. You will then say but it isn't fair its for war heres the big point you don't get the pve player don't want to war with you!!!!! so they dont want a war totem they want a extra safty totem to get threw that 20,970 square war section.

Are you not aware that the whole land mass is open pvp all but the tiny 30x30 square the tribe sets on? Are you not aware that the safty net only exsist on the tribal land there part of and in no one elses tribal land? I truly don't think you'll have a clue to the mechanics of Xsyon and what open pvp is.

Isn't the truth more of as there are more pve players than pvp which is why you want land mass thats no safty nets and no tribal place to hide and if they do hide the so called war totem and fort is destroyable? Isn't it true that right now it's hard to find players near you who want to pvp and most want to pve? Isn't the truth you hate every time you venture out and can't find a pvp player cause there are to many tribes that want to pve near you?

Isn't it the truth that this is why you want to do away with safe zones? You are to busy thinking all them tribes that want peace add up to one huge safe zone! Well they don't! it's just small patches you can't kill select players on and in fact its all open pvp but that 30x30 square.

Let me explain this way incase you don't understand what i just wrote.
You on map and you'r pvp player and im 600 squares across the valley to visit my friend in another tribe. You come up to attack me and kill me on my friends land. Why did this happen? Cause im not on my tribal land safe net 600 squares away im 100% fully legal to be hacked away by you.There is no escape for me no where to run for safty unless i have some special ability that allows me to out run you all way back 600 squares across terrain to my safe net.

You are adding all the tribes to gether and saying thats every ones safty net and its to big. You can't do that this is not truthful. I'm not going to break out the colored markers and crayons if you don't understand now why pve players have a beef with pvp players right now I'm done with this. It's clearly only a select few on these forums who keep suggesting these ideas and yes you are one of them. You guys are like me repeat readers and writers on these forums why once in a blue moon we get a stranger post we havn't seen try to get a word in with there view. Our problem is we see this game in 2 diffrent prospectives. I respect you fight for the pvp players but im just pointing out facts.I'm done with this argument Peace I'll lay into the next one that comes up.

[MrDDT]

I can write a huge reply to this, but to sum up.

I didnt ask for MORE land. Reread what I said. I dont care about the size of the area.