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  1. #1

    Change to how "HIDING" works.

    This is my idea to change hiding so its not only useful, but not boring as crap to level up.

    First off let me explain how hiding currently works, so that people can understand the change.

    Right now you train hiding by clicking hide over and over. (I would guess about 1000 times per point times 1.05 per point increase. IE. 1 to 2 = 1000 times, 2 to 3 = 1050 times, 3 to 4 = 1103, 4 to 5 = 1158.
    As you can see this will be a very large number once you start getting to 90s, where currently hiding skill is even kinda useful.
    (Note: these numbers are made up, and are not fully tested)

    Right now what hiding looks like from about 5 to 30, you cant see any real change. Ever so slight. 31 to 60, its starting to get a little harder to see someone but really not much. 60 to 90, its noticeable at ranges, and closeup you can start to see through someone. 90 to 100, its slightly effective but still pretty lack luster for the 100 hours it takes to skill up.


    I propose they make hiding a little more effective overall and at top end. This is how.

    First, top end hiding should be about 3x more effective. 3 ways to make it more effective.
    1)Make it so you are seen through / blend in much better.
    2)Make it so you are unseen 100% at further ranges. (hiding vs perception)
    3)Make it so you move faster while hiding. (Up to or close to max speed running).

    Right now hiding is trained in a while its mostly just boring as heck, or macroed, or mind numbingly painful.
    I propose we change this.
    This is the new way I would like to see it skilled up and used.
    1)First make it so that you can fail or succeed in hiding.
    2)If you succeed there are tiers to it. (more in this in a second)
    3)Make it so you gain more skill while around MOBS, which also figures into the chance of success.
    4)Hiding skill is gained while using it (like running/swimming). More skill is gained while succeeding detection checks.
    5)Range of being seen based on skill of hiding vs perception of mobs/people detecting them.

    Tiers to success.
    Normal success - skill level hiding = speed running movement IE. 5 hiding = 5% run speed.
    Greater success - skill level hiding x 1.25 speed running with capped out at 90% run speed. Also blending effect is x1.25 greater with capped out at max 100 hiding effect.

    (You can add more tiers if needed)


    This allows people to use the skill instead of just clicking the button over and over and over til they are 90 skill then using it.

    Note: I don't want people to just be able to go POOF and disappear. Im thinking more of what they have now just better effectiveness. (Think Predator type hiding from the movies).

    Comments? Criticism?


    That was my old post.

    After more testing with someone that DOES have 99 hiding, I would like to revamp this.
    I was misinformed about what 99 hiding looks like.

    Here are 3 screenshots taken with someone with 93 perception.





    This is not what I was hoping for from hiding. So Im going to change some of my statements due to having better information of how hiding works in the game.

    This is my UPDATED idea to change hiding so its not only useful, but not boring as crap to level up.

    First off let me explain how hiding currently works, so that people can understand the change.

    Right now you train hiding by clicking hide over and over. (I would guess about 1000 times per point times 1.05 per point increase. IE. 1 to 2 = 1000 times, 2 to 3 = 1050 times, 3 to 4 = 1103, 4 to 5 = 1158.
    As you can see this will be a very large number once you start getting to 90s, where currently hiding skill is even kinda useful.
    (Note: these numbers are made up, and are not fully tested)

    Right now what hiding looks like from about 5 to 30, you cant see any real change. Ever so slight. 31 to 60, its starting to get a little harder to see someone but really not much. 60 to 80, its noticeable at ranges, and closeup you can start to see through someone. 80 to 99 is way to effective and makes people just POOF out of thin air.


    I propose they make hiding a little more effective overall and at top end. This is how.

    First, top end hiding should be about less effective but more useful.
    1)High end hiding is to effective you should not be able to just POOF out of sight at close range.
    2)Make it so you are unseen 100% at further ranges. (hiding vs perception)
    3)Make it so you move faster while hiding based on skill of hiding. (Up to or close to max speed running but less effective)

    Right now hiding is trained in a way its mostly just boring as heck, or macroed, or mind numbingly painful.
    I propose we change this.
    This is the new way I would like to see it skilled up and used.
    1)First make it so that you can fail or succeed in hiding.
    2)If you succeed there are tiers to it. (more in this in a second)
    3)Make it so you gain more skill while around MOBS, which also figures into the chance of success.
    4)Hiding skill is gained while using it (like running/swimming). More skill is gained while succeeding detection checks.
    5)Range of being seen based on skill of hiding vs perception of mobs/people detecting them.

    Tiers to success.
    Normal success - skill level hiding = speed running movement IE. 5 hiding = 5% run speed.
    Greater success - skill level hiding x 1.25 speed running with capped out at 90% run speed. Also blending effect is x1.25 greater with capped out at max 100 hiding effect.

    (You can add more tiers if needed)


    This allows people to use the skill instead of just clicking the button over and over and over til they are 90 skill then using it.

    Note: I don't want people to just be able to go POOF and disappear. Im thinking more of what they have now just usefulness. (Think Predator type hiding from the movies).

    The key to this is to allow people to train hiding while having fun and making it useful while even at lower levels.
    The way hiding is now is that the pay off is great at high end because you can just POOF disappear mid combat, but that shouldnt be like that. It should be a tool but not overpowered as that. Also making it useful at lower levels and able to be trained that way can get anyone into it. Instead of just people that macro, or are ok with grinding out crazy long skills (100+ hours worth).

    Also note that hiding in water, or near a fire, or some walls does not work well at all. Plus if someone has shadows on, you stick out like a sore thumb. I hope they fix this.

    Comments? Criticism?
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  2. #2
    First, top end hiding should be about 3x more effective. 3 ways to make it more effective.
    1)Make it so you are seen through / blend in much better.
    2)Make it so you are unseen 100% at further ranges. (hiding vs perception)
    3)Make it so you move faster while hiding. (Up to or close to max speed running).
    Awful ideas imo. We don't need invisible characters running around full speed. Hiding is more effective right now than it should be, don't raise it.

    About training it: make training very slow and make it impossible to macro, otherwise everyone will have 100 hiding and that makes the skill pointless. Hiding would be unmacroable if it could only be trained beside untamed animals.

  3. #3
    I'd imagine they would only be invisible from 100 meters out, or something like that.
    Audacius

    [B]

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    Awful ideas imo. We don't need invisible characters running around full speed. Hiding is more effective right now than it should be, don't raise it.

    About training it: make training very slow and make it impossible to macro, otherwise everyone will have 100 hiding and that makes the skill pointless. Hiding would be unmacroable if it could only be trained beside untamed animals.

    People are already invisible running around at full speed, Its called out of sight range. Sight range is based on perception stat.
    What my idea is saying is to make hiding work better for sight distance reduction. Right now say you can see people with 50 perception at 150m, with max hiding maybe it would be only at 100m. Then when you do "see" them, its would then be effected like you were looking at the predator.

    I didnt mean (as noted at the bott0m) where people would just disappear while being in sight range. They would blend into the background a little (like the predator).

    About training, yes I like very slow skills to train. I dont like "impossible to macro" because nothing is impossible to macro. This system with leveling like I outlined it, makes it harder to level while macroing it. It rewards people for PLAYING WITH the hiding skill instead of standing around hitting a key every second or so.

    Why would you use hiding beside an untamed animal? I mean do you mean in aggro range of it? I think its a good idea, but I think it should be trained in other ways, but you should be rewarded more for this type of play, which is what I outlined in my changes.
    BTW you can macro it even using untamed animals as the only way to train it. You just have to be smart about it.

    Thanks for you input.
    Also have you seen 100 hiding skill used in game? I have and its not effective at all. You can clearly see the person at very far distances.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    People are already invisible running around at full speed, Its called out of sight range. Sight range is based on perception stat.
    What my idea is saying is to make hiding work better for sight distance reduction. Right now say you can see people with 50 perception at 150m, with max hiding maybe it would be only at 100m. Then when you do "see" them, its would then be effected like you were looking at the predator.

    I didnt mean (as noted at the bott0m) where people would just disappear while being in sight range. They would blend into the background a little (like the predator).

    About training, yes I like very slow skills to train. I dont like "impossible to macro" because nothing is impossible to macro. This system with leveling like I outlined it, makes it harder to level while macroing it. It rewards people for PLAYING WITH the hiding skill instead of standing around hitting a key every second or so.

    Why would you use hiding beside an untamed animal? I mean do you mean in aggro range of it? I think its a good idea, but I think it should be trained in other ways, but you should be rewarded more for this type of play, which is what I outlined in my changes.
    BTW you can macro it even using untamed animals as the only way to train it. You just have to be smart about it.

    Thanks for you input.
    Also have you seen 100 hiding skill used in game? I have and its not effective at all. You can clearly see the person at very far distances.
    I did see 100 hiding. With low perception stats the person is practically invisible. Make it even more invisible and we will play with ghosts lol.
    You didn't give any reason why should they make hiding even more effective. There is no reason for that, it is good as it is apart of the training method. I especially don't like your suggestion about running speed. A person in hiding mode should move very slow.

    Your ideas about training don't make it hard to macro at all, actually it makes it easy. A skill which gives such an advantage has to be very hard to macro. My suggestion about training it beside mobs (yes, inside aggro range) would make it VERY hard to macro.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    I did see 100 hiding. With low perception stats the person is practically invisible. Make it even more invisible and we will play with ghosts lol.
    You didn't give any reason why should they make hiding even more effective. There is no reason for that, it is good as it is apart of the training method. I especially don't like your suggestion about running speed. A person in hiding mode should move very slow.

    Your ideas about training don't make it hard to macro at all, actually it makes it easy. A skill which gives such an advantage has to be very hard to macro. My suggestion about training it beside mobs (yes, inside aggro range) would make it VERY hard to macro.

    First sentence states the reason for the changes.
    Not useful and boring to skill up.

    If a person has very low / low perception stats then they shouldnt see people hiding well at all. Shouldnt perceptive people be rewarded for high stats in that, and people with low stats in perception be punished? Its like having high/low FORT stat. If you have low FORT you are punished by getting tired faster, if you have high FORT you are rewarded. Its a balancing system.
    Running speed is just a basic number, it can be adjusted for balance. Higher skill should mean faster movement speeds is my point of it.

    My idea doesnt make it hard to macro, it makes it rewarding to NOT macro. Which is the point, you can NOT macro for an hour doing hiding, and get the same out of it as you could in theory get out of macroing for 30 hours.
    You cant remove macros from the game, no matter what it can be macroed.

    What would be the point of "hiding" inside aggro range? So you can move slower to the bear? It would at the very least need to be outside the aggro range and then rewarding the player for staying hidden aggro range.
    Even this, I can macro if I wanted to spend effort, so again you can not remove macros from the game. The key is to limit their effectiveness and make it harder.

    How people are rewarded more are the successful "spot" checks, and doing it near mobs. Both I listed already in my plan.

    Trust me I dont like macroing, but I know that if you have all these hoops (like trying to hide while getting hit by a mob is the only way to level it), it will make it useless skill to even have, or a dumb way to skill it. Who would want to try to hide in mid combat for example? There is no reward there for better play, its just an action now for no reason.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    First sentence states the reason for the changes.
    Not useful and boring to skill up.

    If a person has very low / low perception stats then they shouldnt see people hiding well at all. Shouldnt perceptive people be rewarded for high stats in that, and people with low stats in perception be punished? Its like having high/low FORT stat. If you have low FORT you are punished by getting tired faster, if you have high FORT you are rewarded. Its a balancing system.
    This is how it works now. With low perception a hidden person with 100 hiding is practically invisible. No need to change it.
    It is useful enough, and shouldn't be more useful, it would greatly unbalance the system.
    I agree its boring to train.
    Running speed is just a basic number, it can be adjusted for balance. Higher skill should mean faster movement speeds is my point of it.
    There is no reason why should anyone move faster in hiding mode. It is good as it is. He is hiding anyway, aka trying to move in quiet, that can't be done if he is fast.

    My idea doesnt make it hard to macro, it makes it rewarding to NOT macro. Which is the point, you can NOT macro for an hour doing hiding, and get the same out of it as you could in theory get out of macroing for 30 hours.
    You cant remove macros from the game, no matter what it can be macroed.

    What would be the point of "hiding" inside aggro range? So you can move slower to the bear? It would at the very least need to be outside the aggro range and then rewarding the player for staying hidden aggro range.
    Even this, I can macro if I wanted to spend effort, so again you can not remove macros from the game. The key is to limit their effectiveness and make it harder.

    How people are rewarded more are the successful "spot" checks, and doing it near mobs. Both I listed already in my plan.

    Trust me I dont like macroing, but I know that if you have all these hoops (like trying to hide while getting hit by a mob is the only way to level it), it will make it useless skill to even have, or a dumb way to skill it. Who would want to try to hide in mid combat for example? There is no reward there for better play, its just an action now for no reason.
    As long as its possible to train hiding anywhere by just clicking the button then its extremely easy to macro, and people will do it. Perhaps it can be macroed even if you need animals nearby ( though I don't see how) but it would be much much harder.
    Your idea doesn't make it rewarding not to macro at all. People will just train it more effectively when they actually play, and will macro it while they are AFK.

    I didn't say training hiding during combat. Switch to hiding when you see animals, and go closer while hiding.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    This is how it works now. With low perception a hidden person with 100 hiding is practically invisible. No need to change it.
    It is useful enough, and shouldn't be more useful, it would greatly unbalance the system.
    I agree its boring to train.

    There is no reason why should anyone move faster in hiding mode. It is good as it is. He is hiding anyway, aka trying to move in quiet, that can't be done if he is fast.


    As long as its possible to train hiding anywhere by just clicking the button then its extremely easy to macro, and people will do it. Perhaps it can be macroed even if you need animals nearby ( though I don't see how) but it would be much much harder.
    Your idea doesn't make it rewarding not to macro at all. People will just train it more effectively when they actually play, and will macro it while they are AFK.

    I didn't say training hiding during combat. Switch to hiding when you see animals, and go closer while hiding.

    How often do you use hiding?

    Everyone I know that has hiding and others that want hiding. Say its useless. When I fight people its useless, and its not being used at all. That to me means needs a change.
    I think you mean "practically invisible" to someone with like 10 perception from far away. But anything even remotely close to them, its very very easy to spot even with 10 perception.

    Moving faster will give it a reason to train it up other than going invisible. Its not required, the key is to have hiding useful even at lower levels, instead of spending 1000s of hours training it before you can even use it at all.

    I agree my system doesnt stop people from macroing, it rewards people for playing it.
    Yes they can macro it while afk, but they would have to spend many many more hours afk macroing it, OR they could spend a few hours doing it.
    You can say the same for many skills in the game. Combat, running, jumping, swimming, crafting (most skills) etc.

    Key here is to reward people for playing the game correctly. Then they wont worry about macroing. If people are macroing AFK they will be at risk too. Death penitalies will be coming into play, and it will be a lot more risky. Lets assume you lose 5 random points on death. Well, if you are macroing afk gaining only 1 point every 10 hours, vs actively hiding gaining one point every 30mins. You could set yourself back effectively 100 points worth of macroing time with just 1 death. Sounds very risky to me.

    You are right, you said train it while in aggro range, which means you will be aggro'd. Which also means you can train it during combat. (and you will be rewarded for it according to you).

    I do like the switch to hiding when you see animals, and get closer while hiding, so much I even stated it.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    How often do you use hiding?

    Everyone I know that has hiding and others that want hiding. Say its useless. When I fight people its useless, and its not being used at all. That to me means needs a change.
    I think you mean "practically invisible" to someone with like 10 perception from far away. But anything even remotely close to them, its very very easy to spot even with 10 perception.

    Moving faster will give it a reason to train it up other than going invisible. Its not required, the key is to have hiding useful even at lower levels, instead of spending 1000s of hours training it before you can even use it at all.

    I agree my system doesnt stop people from macroing, it rewards people for playing it.
    Yes they can macro it while afk, but they would have to spend many many more hours afk macroing it, OR they could spend a few hours doing it.
    You can say the same for many skills in the game. Combat, running, jumping, swimming, crafting (most skills) etc.

    Key here is to reward people for playing the game correctly. Then they wont worry about macroing. If people are macroing AFK they will be at risk too. Death penitalies will be coming into play, and it will be a lot more risky. Lets assume you lose 5 random points on death. Well, if you are macroing afk gaining only 1 point every 10 hours, vs actively hiding gaining one point every 30mins. You could set yourself back effectively 100 points worth of macroing time with just 1 death. Sounds very risky to me.

    You are right, you said train it while in aggro range, which means you will be aggro'd. Which also means you can train it during combat. (and you will be rewarded for it according to you).

    I do like the switch to hiding when you see animals, and get closer while hiding, so much I even stated it.
    I meant practically invisible when the hidden person is really close. I guess you haven't seen a a hidden person with low perception.
    I think we can agree to disagree. I think hiding is effective enough, perhaps a bit too effective, you think its not. I hope they won't change it, it would be unbalanced then imo.

    'You can say the same for many skills in the game. Combat, running, jumping, swimming, crafting (most skills) etc.'
    Thats right. All of the skills in game are very easily to macro, and thats not good. I hope they will change it. So if you suggest to change the training method of hiding they should as well change it so that it would be hard to macro.

    Why would anyone die while training hiding AFK ? They will train it inside their safe zone, or behind walls and gates which is even worse. There is no risk of dieing.
    If there was a random monster popping up while someone is macroing, attacking the player and killing that would be nice. I suggested that earlier.

  10. #10
    Ok we agree to disagree.

    Anyone else want to chime in on this?

    About making it harder to macro. I agree, but I dont want to have to jump through hoops to train a skill in ways that doesnt make sense. IE, trying to hid while mid combat being the best way to train a skill.

    Ok we agree to disagree.

    Anyone else want to chime in on this?

    About making it harder to macro. I agree, but I dont want to have to jump through hoops to train a skill in ways that doesnt make sense. IE, trying to hid while mid combat being the best way to train a skill.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


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