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  1. #1

    Why capping skills wont work..

    I don't know if a lot of the people asking for skill caps understand exactily what would happen if capping skills was put into the game but ill list a couple things that would happen.

    1. People who want to homestead /play by themselves. would never be able to actualy do much ingame. And this would cause loss of players, Not everyone wants to be dependent on others.

    2. Skill caps would introduce a class based system ingame, Negating the entire FFA, sandbox idea this game is supposed to be. The idea is that your not limited by anything other then how much time and effort you put into the game.. Not by artificial rules setup by people who want to control what others can and can not do. This is not WoW or any other game you have played.

    3. Capping skills would prevent people from making anything high QL unless they have access to someone who does have the skills to make XYZ... IE tool crafting requires more then just that skill to actualy make good tools.. (depending on the recipe).. Requiring people (forcing them) to rely on others in game will in the long and short run drive people out of the game.

    I know this for a fact because if this is implemented me and a few other people i know will not be playing this game for long..

    I have no issue with a max skill cap.. but all skills for everyone should cap out at the same level.

    Definition of sandbox game =
    "A video game with no linear storyline or specific goal, the player deriving amusement from a range of open-ended interactions or situations"

    Putting a limit on what you can do would make this not a sandbox game.. forcing people into certain classes would do the same thing. Wurm online thrives because they do not force people into certain classes, they do not put limits on what people can do. In the long run forcing people to do certain things will do nothing but hurt this game.

    If the dev's want this game to be a FFA Sandbox game then they need to take this post very seriously. Ether it is FFA sandbox or its not.. If its not then let the community know so those of us who think it is and will remain so can move on..

    I seriously hope it stays a open world FFA sandbox game, i enjoy it a lot. But forcing me to do only 1-2 things and preventing me from doing others things will make me and others leave the game.

    Cheers
    Wolfgar

  2. #2
    Capping the maximum number of skill points will promote trade. So you could be really good at a few skills or just OK at all the skills.

    If someone wants to never have to interact with someone, then they probably shouldn't play a mmo.

  3. #3
    Capping skills with skill decay and retraining is all that is needed.

    If someone wants to play solo they can. They would train a skill up, make things they want, then train another skill they need. Its not like the cap is going to be 1 skill at a time. So the solo type of player who never wanted to trade could do it, its more work but Im sure they expected that.

    You sir Wolfgar, are an extremist and I know you would do that. Most people wont they would trade here or there for something they need just so they didnt have to go about it a super hard a long way.
    I see no problems with that system.

    Softcap, with skill decay, with softcaps based on types of skills. IE combat skills will have a pool of its own, while crafting would have another pool mostly unrelated.

    If you want to play solo you will have a harder time, but could do everything a tribe could do. Simple as that.
    If you wanted to play solo and not retrain a ton, you can be ok at pretty much everything, but not master much if anything.
    If you dont care about playing only solo, you can work with others to master skills but not all skills and it will promote trade. WIN WIN WIN.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  4. #4
    my point is putting artificial caps on things defeats the entire purpose of having a FFA sandbox game.

    And lets be honest here.. Trade is not the reason why people want skill caps... The real reason is people want others to be forced to do things the way they want them to. Make people rely on others for XYZ etc. Ie cookie cutter builds.

    Trade in this game will never be a large thing for a few reasons..
    1. Its a FFA game..
    2. There are no centralized safe zones where trade can take place.. (something that may or may not be a good thing)
    3. Trust.. IE see #1

    DDT you call me a extremist.. Maybe i am maybe not.. I promote choice.. your promoting limiting choice.

    Sandbox games are all about choices, you can chose to spend the time to get your skills up or you can chose to only focus on certain skills and rely on others for what you need. Putting a enforced cap onto people to make them focus on only one area of the game is artificial and would only be bad for the game.

    Anything that limits your options/choices in game is a bad thing mmmmk? And we don't need artificial caps to force people to do only certain things.. The only people caps will hurt are those who want to make the choice of doing everything themselves. (a good portion of the player base)

    Just because there is a loud group promoting skill caps etc doesn't mean that loud group represents the majority. I hope the dev's understand this.. making a lot of posts on the forums doesn't represent the majority.. (just look at the safe zone poll).

    In the end my point is we do not need caps, if people want to only focus on 1-2 things and rely on trade for the rest they can do that now.. There is no reason at all (especially not trade/not with the player count so low) to limit the solo/small group to do the same thing.

    Just a heads up.. Toolcraft requires leathercraft tailoring and woodcraft.. Depending on the recipe. If players were prevented from raising all of the skills needed then no solo player would EVER be able to make good QL tools. Even if you started out as a tool crafter.

    last but not least .. Limiting something should never be the answer..

    edit.. if skill caps are put in the only people who would ever be able to make and (trade etc) high QL items etc are those in large groups or those people who multi account. Here is the real issue. Certain people want to be the only ones to ever be able to make and "Trade" the best stuff.

    Shouldn't be based on how much money(how many accounts you have) or how many friends you have.. it should be based soley on how much time and effort you have put into the game..

    last edit.. no one is forcing everyone to do everything.. if you and your pvp buddys or anyone else wants to only focus on one thing then all the more power to you.. but don't try and change things so that everyone else is forced to play the game the way you want them to/the way you do. once again.. its about choice and putting limits on choice is bad.

  5. #5
    About this subject, I think that 100 should be what anyone can aim for and work for.
    It is by default, the maximum level a skill can get without specializing into it.

    So everyone can get 100 into anything.
    Although, if you want to be able to reach the "something special" that this skill/craft has to offer, you need to get more pro-efficiency with it.

    Having a skill cap, makes it that people have to work less. Play less. They won't grind every skills possible, why? Because they will decay, so why spend the time to do so?
    Allowing every skills to 100 will keep players playing. So instead of making stuff go backwards, why don't we make it harder to go forward? And therefore invite players to reward for higher rewards. I have many Lv. 100 crafts right now, most of which I wouldn't keep if I had to choose, so they are all going to go to waste eventually and that's a shame.

    Why not make it harder for me to learn a new recipe, a great recipe that would take me much, much more time invested into a particular trade, instead of making lose all that I've actually worked for.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgar View Post
    my point is putting artificial caps on things defeats the entire purpose of having a FFA sandbox game.

    And lets be honest here.. Trade is not the reason why people want skill caps... The real reason is people want others to be forced to do things the way they want them to. Make people rely on others for XYZ etc. Ie cookie cutter builds.

    Trade in this game will never be a large thing for a few reasons..
    1. Its a FFA game..
    2. There are no centralized safe zones where trade can take place.. (something that may or may not be a good thing)
    3. Trust.. IE see #1

    DDT you call me a extremist.. Maybe i am maybe not.. I promote choice.. your promoting limiting choice.

    Sandbox games are all about choices, you can chose to spend the time to get your skills up or you can chose to only focus on certain skills and rely on others for what you need. Putting a enforced cap onto people to make them focus on only one area of the game is artificial and would only be bad for the game.

    Anything that limits your options/choices in game is a bad thing mmmmk? And we don't need artificial caps to force people to do only certain things.. The only people caps will hurt are those who want to make the choice of doing everything themselves. (a good portion of the player base)

    Just because there is a loud group promoting skill caps etc doesn't mean that loud group represents the majority. I hope the dev's understand this.. making a lot of posts on the forums doesn't represent the majority.. (just look at the safe zone poll).

    In the end my point is we do not need caps, if people want to only focus on 1-2 things and rely on trade for the rest they can do that now.. There is no reason at all (especially not trade/not with the player count so low) to limit the solo/small group to do the same thing.

    Just a heads up.. Toolcraft requires leathercraft tailoring and woodcraft.. Depending on the recipe. If players were prevented from raising all of the skills needed then no solo player would EVER be able to make good QL tools. Even if you started out as a tool crafter.

    last but not least .. Limiting something should never be the answer..

    edit.. if skill caps are put in the only people who would ever be able to make and (trade etc) high QL items etc are those in large groups or those people who multi account. Here is the real issue. Certain people want to be the only ones to ever be able to make and "Trade" the best stuff.

    Shouldn't be based on how much money(how many accounts you have) or how many friends you have.. it should be based soley on how much time and effort you have put into the game..

    last edit.. no one is forcing everyone to do everything.. if you and your pvp buddys or anyone else wants to only focus on one thing then all the more power to you.. but don't try and change things so that everyone else is forced to play the game the way you want them to/the way you do. once again.. its about choice and putting limits on choice is bad.

    Your way is no limit in choice, my way is no limit in choice.
    Only difference is 1 promotes trade the other doesnt.
    One also allows people to play less to still be effective, the other doesnt.
    My way gives more options yours doesnt. The draw back to my way is, if you do want to solo, it will be harder. Which is just what Jordi said from the get go. Solo play is doable but harder.

    Both ways can do anything they want. Soft cap, or no cap. However, No cap limits trade, and makes everyone want to train everything so they can do everything themselves. Soft cap promotes trade and interaction but doesnt require it.

    Just heads up, with a soft cap first, who is to say you cant train up 4 or 5 skills without being effected by the soft cap? Second is you still create master and supreme QL items if you wanted too. You would train up say woodcutting to 100, craft 1000s of woodcutting stuff, store them up. Then train up Leathercrafting letting woodcutting decay, saving up 1000s of leathercrafted stuff. Repeat with as many skills as needed. That is just if you didnt want to do ANY trade at all, and wanted to it 100% yourself AND if you could ONLY train up 1 skill to 100 at a time.

    No one is saying you cant make and trade the best stuff, its just going to be harder for you to do EVERYTHING. We are wanting softcaps to make and trade the best stuff, and promote trading.
    Why would anyone want to trade with you, if they could do it 100% themselves? Makes no sense. Only people you would be trading with are noobs to the game, or people that never really play. Then also you would be getting things you dont want because you can make those items best of the best too.

    I would say the loud group here is also the majority (that is my opinion using data from many sources and being around for a long time). Also the dev himself is the one that stated LONG ago that skill caps and skill pools will be in game (and are already in game just FYI).


    "2. There are no centralized safe zones where trade can take place.. (something that may or may not be a good thing)"

    Just FYI there is a safe spot on the map, its Founders Island. There is no attacking there. No one owns it.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  7. #7
    Getting 100 in a craft is already tedious enough. No one in their right mind would grind up to 100 just to stack up on some mats and let it decay, that makes no sense.

    I still believe it would be better to leave things as they are and increase it from the top end instead of trying to lower it down to the bottom end.
    But in order to do so, they would need to work more on increasing the current crafts we have and give it something more. Something worth going for.

    I hate to take WoW as an example, but in all the craft we have available, you could take 2 or 3 as a speciality and gain access to more stuff from those crafts. And since those items are going to be much better than any other non-specialty items, that's what people will want to trade for. And those that don't have the time, or patience to increase those crafts to 100 to get the "default" stuff, they can still trade.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandal View Post
    Getting 100 in a craft is already tedious enough. No one in their right mind would grind up to 100 just to stack up on some mats and let it decay, that makes no sense.

    I still believe it would be better to leave things as they are and increase it from the top end instead of trying to lower it down to the bottom end.
    But in order to do so, they would need to work more on increasing the current crafts we have and give it something more. Something worth going for.

    I hate to take WoW as an example, but in all the craft we have available, you could take 2 or 3 as a speciality and gain access to more stuff from those crafts. And since those items are going to be much better than any other non-specialty items, that's what people will want to trade for. And those that don't have the time, or patience to increase those crafts to 100 to get the "default" stuff, they can still trade.
    Vandal, I was going to the extreme to show you could do it.
    I dont expect people to do it. I also dont expect them to limit you to 1 skill at time. Do you?

    He wants all the skills to be able to be maxed by 1 person (him) so he can trade everything at the highest QL. I give him a way to do that with softcaps, its just much harder.

    Who else wants a game where everyone can master everything at once? I know I dont.
    We got Wolfgar. Because he is an extremist.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandal View Post
    About this subject, I think that 100 should be what anyone can aim for and work for.
    It is by default, the maximum level a skill can get without specializing into it.

    So everyone can get 100 into anything.
    Although, if you want to be able to reach the "something special" that this skill/craft has to offer, you need to get more pro-efficiency with it.

    Having a skill cap, makes it that people have to work less. Play less. They won't grind every skills possible, why? Because they will decay, so why spend the time to do so?
    Allowing every skills to 100 will keep players playing. So instead of making stuff go backwards, why don't we make it harder to go forward? And therefore invite players to reward for higher rewards. I have many Lv. 100 crafts right now, most of which I wouldn't keep if I had to choose, so they are all going to go to waste eventually and that's a shame.

    Why not make it harder for me to learn a new recipe, a great recipe that would take me much, much more time invested into a particular trade, instead of making lose all that I've actually worked for.
    This kind of suggestion is perfect.. There should be no limiting of choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Your way is no limit in choice, my way is no limit in choice.
    Only difference is 1 promotes trade the other doesnt.
    One also allows people to play less to still be effective, the other doesnt.
    My way gives more options yours doesnt. The draw back to my way is, if you do want to solo, it will be harder. Which is just what Jordi said from the get go. Solo play is doable but harder.

    Both ways can do anything they want. Soft cap, or no cap. However, No cap limits trade, and makes everyone want to train everything so they can do everything themselves. Soft cap promotes trade and interaction but doesnt require it.
    trade? is that what your basing this all on?. ok lets address trade.
    1. player population is super low.. Very few people are playing this game.
    2. You can not force trade.. and limiting peoples options based on what you feel is wrong is not the answer.
    3. There is no need for a skill cap.. making one only hurts those who want to do everything themselves. (maybe a small group maybe not) but penalizing players like myself is not the answer.

    you want to know what the answer to the "Trade" issue is?
    1. more players
    2. small Safe zones (small trading citys) where pvp isn't allowed. (must be small/ about the size of a large village)
    3. A unified currency, something that actually has value. (at this time there is nothing ingame that has any real value other then tools) weapons armor etc all take tools to make and once you have the tools etc making armor of super QL is not that hard.

    your view if i read you correctily is to put limits on freedom of choice. (if i believed for even a second that what you and others are promoting would only as you say "make things harder" on the solo player i wouldn't have a issue at all with the suggestions your group is making on this issue) But i do not believe that is what is being promoted.

    Maybe its a misunderstanding on my part, but i believe what is being promoted is , no matter how much i grind my skills i will never be able to do XYZ.. (insert skill name)

    you see i am coming from a game that has none of these limits you are asking for.. one that is quite successful and works quite well without all these limits your suggesting. The reason why i am here? Because the grafics /combat etc are much better in this game. The crafting system has the promise of being really good in this game.. (though a bit clunky) Wurm has absolultly no limit on what players can do. It doesn't hurt the "TRADE" at all.. Some people choose to do everything other choose not to..

    Once again my point is this.. Putting limits on what a player can do only hurts this game. It will hurt trade more then help it because in the long run it would take a LOT of work for someone to get their skills up high enough to be able to make the high QL gear/tools etc. Unlike people who work in a group who can make the same stuff a lot sooner then the solo player.. The way i see it is this.. If i spend the time to get my skills up why the hell should i not be able to do it?..

    What may take a solo player 6 months to a year to accomplish you in your group can be done in a month or less. I belive that there should be a reward for taking the time and effort to actually learn those skills. You on the other hand it seems to me at least think that there should be no reward.

    putting a cap in penalizes the solo player and gives a advantage to group players.. When group players already have a huge advantage already..

    Trade is a non issue.. In the long run like i said before. its about the player base.. This game lacks enough people to have active trade..Penalizing solo players because some people think the skill cap is to blame (when you say yourself it takes a solo player much longer to do anything) is ridiculous.


    (all opinions are my own and based on my opinion)

    Cheers
    Wolfgar

    edit.. Mrddt nice way to start the name calling.. Sense i don't agree with you i must be a "extremist"..
    I for one don't want to do "Everything" but i do want to HAVE THE OPTION.. And you say yourself it would take a LONG time to do..

    Once again .. i will point out the fact this isn't about "trade"..

    My point is a player SHOULD be able to do it all.. IF they put in the time and effort to raise up their skills. The entire point i am making is "IF THEY PUT IN THE TIME AND EFFORT"

    I must be misreading you because from what i understand your saying is.. you do not want anyone regardless of how much time and effort they put into the game to be able to do everything.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Who else wants a game where everyone can master everything at once? I know I dont.
    Not sure I would really mind a game where it's none of my business if someone else wants to put in the time to max everything. What's it to me?
    I think that's the gist of Wolf's post... there's no intention of forcing YOU to max everything, because frankly as long as you're not actively hurting the game, who in their right mind could be bothered to care how you want to play it?

    Mind you, it's been said in one of the dev's posts that their intention is to allow homesteaders to be proficient enough at anything they need/want to be able to live a peaceful and productive life if that's their choosing. They just won't be able to make the highest quality if they choose to do it all themselves.

    Homesteader doesn't necessarily mean hermit by a long shot. Having friendly neighbors for a good barn raising can be a great thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    We got Wolfgar. Because he is an extremist.
    Certainly you're not just posting to "get" people under the guise of wanting to help the game. If so, get help.

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