Do you really want another DF or MO?

[MrDDT]

Never quite understood the "squeaky wheel gets the grease thing..." I mean, is it supposed to be an insult or put down of some kind? Often seems like it's a pvp-centric player talking about holistic-centric players being a squeaky wheel... but then look at how much focus combat is getting from the devs at the moment? I don't quite get it.

If there indeed were so many people not into a pvp-only focus during beta, that should probably tell you something. Those were people who stuck with the game for a very long time and must have seen something they'd enjoy in it. They stayed through delayed launches on a number of occasions.

This right here is why it happens. You believe that because a few or a lot of people are "squeaking" that means they are the most needed, or means that its the most common thought.
When sometimes (not always) its not the case at all. Its like, do happy players post on the forums? Most happy players I know in other games never post on the forums because they are happy with playing the game. Thus it seems like most people playing games are unhappy with the game. When really, its just that forum people are unhappy mostly, and even then its not saying that fully.

The common "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" only means that if the devs hear it, or see a post about it, they are likely to fix it. If no one says anything about it, or its not commented on, then its likely not to be seen as a big problem.

Xsyon also has stated he wanted to mold the game in accordance with the types of players he attracted. This may turn out to be a problem when he attracts players that come in after a year-long beta. Don't like anything they see about the game (your own words Dub), complain profusely, and leave before development switches to deal with the NEW type of player suddenly attracted to a game they wanted but wasn't there.

Book which is why we are posting.
If we allow carebears to just keep posting and crying on the forums without any rubtal from PVPers, then it will turn into a carebear game. We have already seen it. Back when Xsyon first came out, it was well known that PVP was FFA, Safe zones would be removed after Prelude. Then the carebears were unhappy with it, so they cried. While the PVPers are happy, they didnt bother posting. Over time it was changed because it was seen that the carebears are the playerbase.

But low and behold lookie, the PVPers all left, because of lack of PVP stuff, and change in the rules and other factors. While you have left is a few carebears that are unhappy with the bad systems they put into place.

The notion that with safe zones a pvp player has no choice but to move... hypocrites much? That's exactly what is told to someone who doesn't feel like pvping 24/7 by those who do want to do nothing but running around killing other people, dominating other people to compensate for whatever, and destroying what other people have worked on.

Not really, how do you fix the problem with someone if they wont move? You could buy them out. But what if they dont want it?
You could ask them to move? But what if they dont want to?

Unlike a PVP way, is you could (assuming you dont want to fight yourself) is pay them to move, but they might not want to. Or you could pay someone else to move them for you. Now it has no choice in the "they dont want to" anymore.

Ive come up with systems that prevent peoples towns from being destroyed 24/7. You know why? I dont want it either. Yet you think Im this huge PVPer. I want prevents from just what you are saying. I dont want to fight 24/7. Heck most PVPers dont want to fight 24/7.
Most PVPers want to fight when they want to fight, and sometimes randomly, and sometimes planned.

As far as pvpers not going away... most already did. Unlike the crafters that stuck it out for over a year, they lasted what? 3 weeks of not getting exactly what they wanted, or what they wanted to hear, before they stomped their little feet, started insulting everyone and left??

Which crafters? Because the game is dead to me.
There are PVPers still here, but of course most are going to leave when there is these crappy safe totem system, and lack of working combat. If crafting was as broken as combat, ALL the crafters would leave. Even the 50 still playing now.

[Book]

Think I get what you're saying, or at least certainly trying . Funny how it looks so much like English which I'm very familiar with and probably even pretty adept at speaking, and yet half the time we seem to be talking just a bit left or right of each other

So, if I'm to understand the squeaky wheel thing, it won't stop until happy people come post how happy they are and give positive reinforcement. Otherwise, all the devs see as feedback is the negative... so they diligently make changes to address the negative, but in so doing wind up upsetting the happy ones who now come to post their negatives and the cycle starts again.

I'm assuming the trick will be to find the happy medium where feedback comes in the form of growing profit, and we all have a different sense of how that's going to happen. I just hope it does one way or another.

I was looking at Vandal's wiki, saw the map, got all nostalgic, re-downloaded the game and resubbed.

I still contend that it doesn't take all that many rabid, foaming at the mouth pvp types to drive a server right into the ground. I tend to think we have some amongst us, and it's going to be a problem that won't be easily countered by remotely conventional means.

I do still know what I saw before I myself took a break, which was folks I really enjoyed getting frustrated with being constantly harrassed by naked lil ppl with big axes and no longer being able to relax at all in their own neighborhood. The old addage of "get together and fight" doesn't work, plain and simple. Nice theory, doesn't translate to practice...

I think a lot of potential customers, way more than the rabid mouth foamers, fall into the category that won't want to deal with endless torment. I presume the worst offenders have gotten bored now that much of their prey jumped ship. Wonder if the population grows again with reasonable, fairly well-adjusted adults, are we going to get the teenage angst must rule the world folks back and the cycle starts all over again.

Guess we'll find out. In the meantime, I'll try and muster up the desire to be a bit more rabid myself so I can meet folks in the middle, but in all honesty, I haven't had much desire to plow through anyone since I quit drinkin' a while back. Go figure. If the combat mechanics themselves are fun and challenging, that's one thing... but that hasn't been the reason to pvp thus far, it's mostly been pew-pew for the sake of it or to personally harrass which I don't find fun at all.

Oddly enough, it's also since then that I enjoy BC2 so much more... so much easier to shoot the enemy without triple vision! Only need a third of the ammo to boot.

[Jadzia]

So, if I'm to understand the squeaky wheel thing, it won't stop until happy people come post how happy they are and give positive reinforcement. Otherwise, all the devs see as feedback is the negative... so they diligently make changes to address the negative, but in so doing wind up upsetting the happy ones who now come to post their negatives and the cycle starts again.

Yes, this is the problem with the so called player feedback. Thankfully, Jordi said that he would ask players' opinion about core features by email. That way the 'happy' ones will have their voices heard too.

Here we are, talking to pvp folks that you can't outshout, and don't go away

You have already left, Dub. You unsubscribed.

[Mactavendish]

There is exactly what I personally don't get... players that have stopped playing, cancelled their subscriptions and STILL moan and cry incessantly, instead of just trying to enjoy what they have.

I mean if this game is SO bad, and the dev's so unresponsive to your childish demands, what makes you think they are ever gonna cave in to you? And that is what it will take.. a cave in.. a burial of their own ideas and plans to meet what a very few seem to want.

I agree book .. none of this makes sense.

[Dubanka]

Yes, this is the problem with the so called player feedback. Thankfully, Jordi said that he would ask players' opinion about core features by email. That way the 'happy' ones will have their voices heard too.


You have already left, Dub. You unsubscribed.

nope. im still here. sorry. My penance for bring my guild in here was to be the canary at the bottom of the shaft...ill start chirping if i think it's worth coming back for.

and book there is always a wheel squeaking...whether it is or not...tis why you have to be just as vocal in support of the status quo, as you would be in rightous indignation over real or perceived problems.

and yes it is important for the devs to have a clear idea of what they want in the game, then they can sort through the feedback and decide if the 'issue' is as designed, or if something seems amiss.

Added after 7 minutes:

There is exactly what I personally don't get... players that have stopped playing, cancelled their subscriptions and STILL moan and cry incessantly, instead of just trying to enjoy what they have.

I mean if this game is SO bad, and the dev's so unresponsive to your childish demands, what makes you think they are ever gonna cave in to you? And that is what it will take.. a cave in.. a burial of their own ideas and plans to meet what a very few seem to want.

I agree book .. none of this makes sense.

childish demands? seriously?
the vast majority of my posts are logical arguments, laid out in a cohesive manner, where i take pains to understand both sides and present what i see as a workable bridge between them.
i'd dare say the pvp side's forum etiquette is quite a bit better than the antis, as we are rarely the first one's to let the petty personal insults fly.
And yes, i still have an active subscription, i wouldnt be wasting my time here otherwise.
and finally, following 'your' lead, the game has experienced massive population implosion...great. Perhaps it's time to alter the course just a tad. but that's for the devs to decide/implement.

It's just funny, because it does seem that some of 'you' are absolutely terrified that we get a game that is anything remotely close to the game 'we' want...while we completely understand the need for compromise and are perfectly willing to live in a world where 'you' get just about everything (not quite tho) that you want. I'm more curious to see how this plays out than anything.

[NorCalGooey]

It makes perfect sense. PVPers were an overwhelming majority of the player base. They all left. We are having a discussion about how to bring back the majority while not upsetting the minority

Incoming: PVPers aren't the majority.

To which I say, please don't be ignorant. Only a fool could say that they aren't.

[Book]

nope. im still here. sorry. My penance for bring my guild in here was to be the canary at the bottom of the shaft...ill start chirping if i think it's worth coming back for.

and book there is always a wheel squeaking...whether it is or not...tis why you have to be just as vocal in support of the status quo, as you would be in rightous indignation over real or perceived problems.

and yes it is important for the devs to have a clear idea of what they want in the game, then they can sort through the feedback and decide if the 'issue' is as designed, or if something seems amiss.

Added after 7 minutes:



childish demands? seriously?
the vast majority of my posts are logical arguments, laid out in a cohesive manner, where i take pains to understand both sides and present what i see as a workable bridge between them.
i'd dare say the pvp side's forum etiquette is quite a bit better than the antis, as we are rarely the first one's to let the petty personal insults fly.
And yes, i still have an active subscription, i wouldnt be wasting my time here otherwise.
and finally, following 'your' lead, the game has experienced massive population implosion...great. Perhaps it's time to alter the course just a tad. but that's for the devs to decide/implement.

It's just funny, because it does seem that some of 'you' are absolutely terrified that we get a game that is anything remotely close to the game 'we' want...while we completely understand the need for compromise and are perfectly willing to live in a world where 'you' get just about everything (not quite tho) that you want. I'm more curious to see how this plays out than anything.

I know, you honestly believe what you're saying

The pvp forum etiquette is all that is it? Don't quite see it that way Some of the most offensive stuff I've seen were by people who live by your every word.

Not so much terrified you get the game you're looking for, just no desire at all to spend a minute in it. More terrified about a few things I hear in real life news... don't go thinking too much of your stance as to make people terrified. Again, just ain't all that

NorCal, the majority of people in the majority of games are middle of the roaders who enjoy CASUAL pvp. I wouldn't necessarily anyone saying otherwise is a fool, just not well informed.

[MrDDT]

NorCal, the majority of people in the majority of games are middle of the roaders who enjoy CASUAL pvp. I wouldn't necessarily anyone saying otherwise is a fool, just not well informed.

I have to agree with this, when you are talking about "Majority" of all gamers.
However, focus on what was said at the start of this game, and you will find that most of them were falling to the side of FFA PVP, thus most of the people looking and buying the game were PVPers IMO.

Now the game is going more carebear, you will have less PVPers. Its pretty simple concept to understand.

Announce a game is FFA PVP, and you will draw mostly PVPers to the game. Change the game to carebear land, and the PVPers will leave.

[Dubanka]

... the majority of people in the majority of games are middle of the roaders who enjoy CASUAL pvp. I wouldn't necessarily anyone saying otherwise is a fool, just not well informed.

the majority of people play games where they are led by the nose from one task to another in order to feel a sense of accomplishment.
the majority of people play games where they have nice simple teams to be on, and everything is perfectly controlled so they never feel disappointed (ie. instanced content).

xsyon is a niche game...xyson is not for the majority of people of who play games...a game that is advertised as FFA will not attract the majority of players.
the majority of people who play games with an 'FFA' tag next to it are pvp players, who are used to playing in niche games, in sand box worlds, with design elements that allow them to do pretty much whatever.

it goes back to the 'who is your audience'. the legion of casual gamers playing wow/rift/etc or the handful (couple hundred k) that prefer a little more freedom in their free time?

[Book]

No offense Dub but you're letting your sense of superiority and holier than thou attitude cloud your judgment.

Led by the nose? You can't imagine someone a bit different than you also enjoying an FFA environment but with something else in mind?

I'll be more than willing to agree that as soon as you say FFA PVP, the rabid must destroy folks get tunnel vision and sign on for a game where they don't like anything that's actually in it, they have no patience or hope that combat will improve, and yet they're determined to make everything about FFA PVP.

If you were to look at what you and your folks, in and out of squad are up to, you'd see it's pretty much folly. You see those six capital letters and start wanting to hump the server... take a step back, consider the complete game, the whole thing, and try to understand it's more complex than six capital letters. It's not going to be dumbed down to pewpewland. Or at least, I'm just so terrified of that happening!! Yeah, right, laughable mate.

I'm not remotely convinced you're sticking around because you have hope for the game. You're sticking around because you sold your friends a game that wasn't what you advertised to them, and now you hope to wrangle it more to their liking. Go fish.