How about Effort vs. Reward?

[Mactavendish]

Dub.. first off i'm not making assumptions, I am making observations.

Unlike you, I don't have to rant and rave about PvP being what will "save" this game.

What I am trying to do is get folks to think more and emo less. ( yep I do mean you as an emo, well you and bout 4 others actually )

If the rabid pvp/crush players were actually correct in their assumptions, then no pvp based game would ever get boring or lose players are get into financial trouble... But all that is true for any of the ones out now.

( please feel free to nitpick about some minor point here as it will surely change everyone's mind to your point of view )

[MrDDT]

Dub.. first off i'm not making assumptions, I am making observations.

Unlike you, I don't have to rant and rave about PvP being what will "save" this game.

What I am trying to do is get folks to think more and emo less. ( yep I do mean you as an emo, well you and bout 4 others actually )

If the rabid pvp/crush players were actually correct in their assumptions, then no pvp based game would ever get boring or lose players are get into financial trouble... But all that is true for any of the ones out now.

( please feel free to nitpick about some minor point here as it will surely change everyone's mind to your point of view )

I dont know what "emo" means, maybe its a new slang term for PVPer or something, but who is saying "PVP will make any game the work".

From what I understand Dub and others like myself are saying, is that the game was said to be FFA PVP, Full loot. Safe zones were to be removed after prelude and towards the end of prelude once players could build up and protect themselves.

I doubt we can change your view point, because you clearly do not look at facts you go off "feelings" which means you have no idea to look at something with a bias look. This game is meant to be a sandbox game. Right now it is very clear to most people the game was not release with the features it was said to have, also there is lacking a lot of things to keep people having fun in game.
Yes Im sure you and your 3 friends are having a gay ole time.

But most players that are looking at this game (being that most gamers are not, so you have to think of the players that would be looking at it, sandbox type with FFA PVP thoughts). This game is not fun. So saying that these rabid PVP/crush players are trying to say PVP will fix the game, is not really looking at it without bias.

Its not even PVP that we are saying will fix it. We are saying give people something to fight for, give reasons to build, give reasons to craft. Right now there is zero reason to build, fight, or craft. Other than it looks cool.

Once buildings, have a reason, walls have a reason, location has a reason, armor has more of a reason, weapons, and skills have reasons, and limitations on these. You will see the game start to grow. It doesnt need more content, it needs things working, and features turned on. Like contested totems, resources split up into regions, crafting mean something when you craft it use it and lose it.


If I were to lose every item I had, I wouldnt be upset at all. Because its all worthless to me. Everyday I think "I really hope this game gets a lot better, because if not Im wasting a ton of time. Should I even log in today?" Because I have no goals other than a few Ive said which I doubt anyone else would or could ever do.

Im really going to start wondering here this next month if no patches that are worth while I will have really nothing left to do. Soon (less than a month or 2) I will have all skills at 100. What should I do then?

[Dubanka]

Dub.. first off i'm not making assumptions, I am making observations.

Unlike you, I don't have to rant and rave about PvP being what will "save" this game.

What I am trying to do is get folks to think more and emo less. ( yep I do mean you as an emo, well you and bout 4 others actually )

If the rabid pvp/crush players were actually correct in their assumptions, then no pvp based game would ever get boring or lose players are get into financial trouble... But all that is true for any of the ones out now.

( please feel free to nitpick about some minor point here as it will surely change everyone's mind to your point of view )

You fail at the forum game.

1. I 'rant and rave' about achieving a level of balance within the game. I definitely do not advocate it becoming some version of gankland.
2. I definitely don't emo. you'll have to look in the mirror there.
3. Yes we all know that just because a game has pvp in it, well then its a WIN!!! (winning!) Right? Seriously, come up with some better material.

And i'm not trying to change anyone's mind...everyone's opinions are pretty much set...you might move someone a couple percent in either direct, but thats about it. Most of what i try to do is engage in a constructive, someone intelligent, discourse regarding some portion of the game. I do this, because it is apparent that the devs are still figuring out not just how they want to do stuff, but what do they want to do...and a good discussion can bring about some decent ideas.

I know you'd prefer that we just sit here in silence and play the simulation and wait for fixes and content and whatnot. You'd rather everyone just mirror your own opinion, so you can pat your self on the back with the affirmation that yes, you are good enough, smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like you. I'm not one of those people, so apologies.

[Mactavendish]

heh.

You and ddt both seem to think I'm trying to win against you two. Self-important much? I am only interested in developers making good progress and enjoy the game like it is.

And of course your are trying to change someones minds.. The developers.

You are right that I believe your broken record like posts are very tiresome to me, but then again mine are to you right? so I guess we are even on that point.

And you again are wrong when you think I want everyone's opinion to mirror mine... What I actually want is the developers to make better progress, clearly state what they intend to do on the very subjects you always post about, and maybe that will stop some of this mindless bickering.

[NorCalGooey]

This is funny...and I will continue to ask this until you can come up with a better solution.

Mac, what do you guys do after you build aesthetic tribe lands, craft aesthetic items, and level skills to gain HP for non existent player conflict either in PVE or PVP?

Sit in a circle doing emotes and singing Kumbaya?

[MrDDT]

heh.

You and ddt both seem to think I'm trying to win against you two. Self-important much? I am only interested in developers making good progress and enjoy the game like it is.

And of course your are trying to change someones minds.. The developers.

You are right that I believe your broken record like posts are very tiresome to me, but then again mine are to you right? so I guess we are even on that point.

And you again are wrong when you think I want everyone's opinion to mirror mine... What I actually want is the developers to make better progress, clearly state what they intend to do on the very subjects you always post about, and maybe that will stop some of this mindless bickering.

I dont see how offering ideas, and working out problems is "changing" someones mind.

Unlike you, some people see there are problems with the game, and work on trying to offer ideas and work out the problems. Instead of saying "Everything is grand, whatever the devs do is great" most people call you a "fanboi". But Im sure you are happy with the 3 people you are playing with. Until the day comes one of your friends or more see the problems we see, or end up quitting for other reasons.

Then you will quit, without a word to another game. All the while not understanding how you damaged the game with your posts and thoughts of "Oh the game is great" you wont be there to really try to fix the game.

[Dubanka]

heh.

You and ddt both seem to think I'm trying to win against you two. Self-important much? I am only interested in developers making good progress and enjoy the game like it is.

And of course your are trying to change someones minds.. The developers.

You are right that I believe your broken record like posts are very tiresome to me, but then again mine are to you right? so I guess we are even on that point.

And you again are wrong when you think I want everyone's opinion to mirror mine... What I actually want is the developers to make better progress, clearly state what they intend to do on the very subjects you always post about, and maybe that will stop some of this mindless bickering.

Trying to 'win' against you? Me stating you fail, means you suck...your posts are incoherent whiny drivel that offer very little in the way of anything besides fanboi proseltyzing.

my broken record posts encompass thoughts around things like combat mechanics, weapon balance, siege warfare implementation, balancing 'end game' gameplay between pve and pvp players, you know, stupid posts that lack much anything in the way of constructive ideas and rarely serve any purpose other than to add to my own post count. They rarely spur any degree of discussion on the topic. On the other hand, your posts are extraordinarily insightful and delve deeply into current and future gameplay elements...or wait, you just post complaints about other people having opinions on the current state of the game.

xoxo.

[Book]

There's some Bob Dylan song, I forget which one, but he mentions people who would rather pull you into the hole they're in than consider allowing you to pull them up and out of it.

Some people bought the game and found that there's something in it that they like. That shouldn't be a problem, isn't really necessary for everyone to be as miserable as the next guy. It certainly doesn't mean the devs are going to read that opinion and think "YES! we're done! woohoo!"

Some people bought the game, convinced all their friends to buy the game, and then realized there's nothing in its current inception that they like. That's unfortunate. The original design is being changed to include sieges and various other things to accommodate those folks. If it were to happen overnight, you might like it, but it probably wouldn't have much of an intellectual challenge to it and we'd wind up with pewpew my macro good! yarr! Would be an unfortunate step backwards imho. No no, wait, I actually am entitled to mho.

Now, I suppose, one answer might be to pounce on people like Mac at every opportunity in the hopes they'll cower away and never post again. Someone pointed out there's actually people who post with the intent of "manipulating" the dev team. Odd concept frankly but I suppose that would be easier if different points of view were chased off the forums with great remarks like "you suck, you fail, stfu" etc.

Perhaps he really IS saying that pvp people are the problem. I don't really see that as being the case and didn't think Mac did either honestly... but how is that any different from the other people running around saying carebears are the problem at every mind-numbing, boring opportunity? Aside from the fact that one is your personal opinion, and the other might be his personal opinion.

/shrug. I hope the game changes to whatever people need so they can save face to all their little friends and we can move on to more interesting, intellectually stimulating subjects.

[Shrimps]

. . .Some people bought the game, convinced all their friends to buy the game, and then realized there's nothing in its current inception that they like. That's unfortunate. The original design is being changed to include sieges and various other things to accommodate those folks. . .

When did this happen exactly?

For months before beta was even public we were having discussions about sieges and Open world PVP with no safe zones, and at the time that I and many others bought the game there wasn't even a hint that there was any intent to have permanent safe zones. It was the understanding at that time that there would be safe zones only for prelude and that the karma system and war upkeep would regulate the warfare to dedicated grudges, and limit random griefers to almost nothing.

It wasn't until open beta got well along and the game got more popular that the idea of permanent safe zones was even entertained. People seem to have forgotten about the fact that the karma system if balanced right and with harsh enough penalties, could solve the whole problem. Everyone seems to be enjoying the arguing too much to actually look for solutions though.

Either way if you want to say that either party "ruined" the game, it would be whichever side deviated from the original idea of no safe zones.

[Book]

When did this happen exactly?

For months before beta was even public we were having discussions about sieges and Open world PVP with no safe zones, and at the time that I and many others bought the game there wasn't even a hint that there was any intent to have permanent safe zones. It was the understanding at that time that there would be safe zones only for prelude and that the karma system and war upkeep would regulate the warfare to dedicated grudges, and limit random griefers to almost nothing.

It wasn't until open beta got well along and the game got more popular that the idea of permanent safe zones was even entertained. People seem to have forgotten about the fact that the karma system if balanced right and with harsh enough penalties, could solve the whole problem. Everyone seems to be enjoying the arguing too much to actually look for solutions though.

Either way if you want to say that either party "ruined" the game, it would be whichever side deviated from the original idea of no safe zones.

I hear ya. I'm basing that off Xsyon saying that sieging wasn't part of the original design, but beats me when what was decided. Not trying to call him on it, or you, or anyone else really. More interesting to consider what's ahead, and I see no problem with the Dev team making changes to fit as time goes on. Nature of the business I think.

I've heard many people mention the need for the alignment system as well, in fact I think it's one of the weekly questions in the dev zone this week. If I understood, I think agriculture is next on the list after this next patch. Maybe that's something that is mostly ready and needs less design/big thoughts than the alignment system. I would assume they can have big thoughts on that while they finish coding the farming stuff... provided they have enough coffee on hand of course.

It may well be that sturdy gates and strong alignment system will be the right fix. It makes sense that people express whatever concerns they have with any of it. For instance, if someone gets through my gate and totem camps me... what do I do? Maybe a tamed bear takes care of them, maybe something else. Maybe my religious faith is so strong they will be struck down by lightning... beats me.

Getting too entrenched doesn't really make sense in either direction. At the end of the day, I think everyone wants a system that works and allows them to feel relatively secure they are investing their time in a world that will fit them in most ways. Not likely all, but most is probably somewhat necessary to retain a player.

Another 150 baskets today. Halfway through the order I'm trying to fill, and a good chat in-game that made the time move by faster. All in all, not a bad day in XsyonWorld.

Edit: Just one last thing before moving on, when you say "we" were talking about sieges... are you including developers in that "we?" Developers obviously do seem to listen to the player base, and take some input. However, just because "we" talk about anything doesn't mean it has anything to do with the developer's final business driven decision. "We" are not running things, however much some of "us" may like to believe "we" do. For good measure since I'm saying it so much... "we!"