AR leader explaining why he and most quit Xsyon

[Dubanka]

jadzia, i agree with you in concept, where 'higher level skill means something'...however in practice this really just promotes macroing. Any system that promotes grind or tedium over player driven intereaction is vulnerable in that manner.

Personally, i think that specializing in skills (ie. like individual recipes, or classes of recipes) in conjunction with a fairly rapid, if inversely exponential, skill decay (ie. the higher the skill, the faster it decays, with decay slowing down rapidly as you got towards the middle of the curve) would do fit the compromise. Adding to this system the ability for players to unlock potentially unique recipes based upon certain their levels of craftsmanship...something like 95 broad ax + 85 super duper shovel + 100 long handle = Long Handled Bladed Shovel (uh weaponized spear/shovel hybrid that gives bonus to earth moving dig speek). witht he faster skill decay, it would be all but impossible for a non-dedicated (ACTIVE...not bot) crafter to achieve the higher end variants.

of course this would only work with a much higher level crafting specialization (discussed in a previous thread somewhere) than we currently have.

[Book]

jadzia, i agree with you in concept, where 'higher level skill means something'...however in practice this really just promotes macroing. Any system that promotes grind or tedium over player driven intereaction is vulnerable in that manner.

Personally, i think that specializing in skills (ie. like individual recipes, or classes of recipes) in conjunction with a fairly rapid, if inversely exponential, skill decay (ie. the higher the skill, the faster it decays, with decay slowing down rapidly as you got towards the middle of the curve) would do fit the compromise. Adding to this system the ability for players to unlock potentially unique recipes based upon certain their levels of craftsmanship...something like 95 broad ax + 85 super duper shovel + 100 long handle = Long Handled Bladed Shovel (uh weaponized spear/shovel hybrid that gives bonus to earth moving dig speek). witht he faster skill decay, it would be all but impossible for a non-dedicated (ACTIVE...not bot) crafter to achieve the higher end variants.

of course this would only work with a much higher level crafting specialization (discussed in a previous thread somewhere) than we currently have.

I like the inversely exponential skill decay, seems like it would allow an average level jack of all trades with spurts of excellence in whatever peaks their interest at the moment.

Would it invite macroing to maintain the high level though? I guess that's assuming skill decay would depend on doing a certain activity over another. Like in real life if someone quits practicing piano and spends all his time in the garage rebuilding a roadster, they'd lose their piano skill... but could gain it back.

Also, do I lose the recipes above level 60 (example) if my skill decays down to that? Or lose just the ability to use that recipe? Or none of the above?

Maybe that would encourage people to pick a direction and stick with it a while rather than level back and forth.

[xyberviri]

unfortunatly this is a post apoc non scifi game.

A whole layer of complexity and customization could be added if it was. Componets of weapons could be individually created and tuned while crafting to ensure there made correctly.

imagine making a SMG that required each of the major componets to be made and on final assembly you get a exploded view of the weapon and all the tweakable parts to adjust the power, rate of fire, reload speed, durabilty.

yeah but this game settings doesn't fit well with that suggestion.

[Dubanka]

unfortunatly this is a post apoc non scifi game.

A whole layer of complexity and customization could be added if it was. Componets of weapons could be individually created and tuned while crafting to ensure there made correctly.

imagine making a SMG that required each of the major componets to be made and on final assembly you get a exploded view of the weapon and all the tweakable parts to adjust the power, rate of fire, reload speed, durabilty.

yeah but this game settings doesn't fit well with that suggestion.

i disagree. weapons are made by part. if for instance you items had bonus slots where you could jsut experiment with adding things.

yes, to make foragers punch you need a craft knife and stone (been grinding that...very good sleep aid ). what if the recipe menu was craft knife, stone, [open unlabeled box]. you might stick something in there and it did nothing, you might put it in there and it do something extraordinary. Higher level recipes might have more than one box. YOu could put anything in the box. the recipe might eat it and do nothing, it may eat it and give no obvious effect but have a hidden one (ie faster swing, longer range), or it may create a completely new item. No one would know this but the crafter that 'discovered' it. and this could apply to any level of the item assemble list. adding a steel plate and foragers punch to your cloth menu? steal reinforced fabric. Adding rivets to your small wooden handle recipe? steel inlaid pomel. all kinds of cool easteregg stuff (infinite even) that could be added.

[MrDDT]

I guess this depends on personal taste. I'd MUCH rather play a game where having a high level skill does mean something, than to play one where my skill levels play seesaw. If reaching max level took a lot of time that would mean that lower level stuffs have value too, and high level stuffs would be really valuable...right now everything which is lower than very high quality and lower than lvl 80 is useless. There is no reason to learn low level recipes apart of getting new items to grind, since no one will use them. It would just be easier to delete all the lower level recipes and give 1 item to grind endlessly till you reach lvl 80-90.


What you describe here doesn't sound too good. If players can max their skills in some days then everyone will be just as self-sufficient as now. Tribes won't have any reason to trade, nothing will have value. 4-5 days to max a skill...thats awful imo, there won't be something like a 'dedicated' crafter if reaching max level is that easy.

I didnt say where higher skill didnt mean something, I just think it should be easier to get thus you remove most of the grind and add in other things for content instead of macro fest. You dont have to do the seesaw of levels if you dont want too, most wouldnt. It would only be the homesteader that doesnt want to trade much or wants to do EVERYTHING on their own.
I do not see in anyway how your way makes low QL items (or as you say low level stuff) have any value at all. It doesnt add to the value of those items at all. Also you talk about how lower level items are useless, well really ALL level items are useless in game so your point is moot. If you believe higher level items have worth then you would have to admit lower level ones do also currently. Again neither is being effected by your skill system. Because everyone would be everything at all times over time.

Tribes wont have any reason to trade in any system based on skills alone. Even if it took you years to get a skill up to max. Why would a tribe trade? It wouldnt be based on skills it would be based on resources. IE, maybe you tribe has access to lots of chalk, while another might have access to human bones. Skill isnt really a factor. Yes skill can be a factor in both cases a little but both cases wouldnt be a big deal.
I do not see how skill is the factor for trade in your system, nor mine. Resources is the key for trade not "skill" PLUS you are forgetting the fact that, lets say you learn and forget recipes, and recipes were rare. My way recipes would be even more rare AND so would someone having the correct recipe in a skill. While your way, people would just train everything over time and have all the recipes over time. Thus losing out on trade.

Your way has 0 promote on trade over mine. Yes yours has a sight trade overall over the current system, however, mine has a lot more over yours and the current.
To me a "dedicated" crafter has nothing to do with who grinded the most to get a skill, it has to do with who is making the items and is sticking it out with those skills. I know many games where you can train everything but takes time and those people dont make crap for the tribe, they just have all the skills. While others which only had 1 or 2 crafts work to ensure the tribe is kept with the items they need. Time training the skill shouldnt have any effect on who the "dedicated" crafter is, it should have to do with who is doing it.
With rapid skill decay, anyone doing something OTHER than their focus craft would likely not be making the items for the tribe as they would lose skill quickly doing other things.

[Book]

Not sure if making it faster to reach a higher skill really does anything to address a macro problem.

Never tried it but I'm guessing if you get a macro for a certain skill once, it remains good to go for the future?

Also guessing the idea is to make the high levels quicker so as to not warrant the time to write a macro... but it makes the macro faster as well. Question becomes does one macro overnight while they sleep, or during dinner? Not to mention I'd bet most people using these macros wouldn't know how to write one to save their lives. They probably get it from their friend who got it from someone else.

Shorter skill-up time means someone who has their macros ready for various skills can bounce around that much more easily and quicker.

Macro would also pretty much kill a rapid skill decay.

[Jadzia]

jadzia, i agree with you in concept, where 'higher level skill means something'...however in practice this really just promotes macroing. Any system that promotes grind or tedium over player driven intereaction is vulnerable in that manner.

Yeah...my dream game is a game where leveling is impossible to macro and its actually fun. Wish I knew how can that be accomplished...perhaps there is no way, skilling is repetitive by nature and even the funniest method gets boring if you have to do that for thousand times. But still, I haven't given up hope yet.

Tribes wont have any reason to trade in any system based on skills alone. Even if it took you years to get a skill up to max. Why would a tribe trade? It wouldnt be based on skills it would be based on resources. IE, maybe you tribe has access to lots of chalk, while another might have access to human bones. Skill isnt really a factor. Yes skill can be a factor in both cases a little but both cases wouldnt be a big deal.

High level skill (if its hard to reach) is a very valuable thing and great for trading. Your tribe may own a lots of chalk or bone, but if they haven't got a good crafter to make something out of it then they do need to trade for the crafted good.

While your way, people would just train everything over time and have all the recipes over time. Thus losing out on trade.

I guess you missed the part where I said people would be limited for 1 recipe (or one set in case of armor) per level.

If anyone can reach max level in 4-5 days then there will be no trading for crafted goods. In a game the really valuable stuffs are items not resources, so this is not good for the economy imo. In a good game resources are the base of the market, very needed, but the really expensive stuffs are high level items crafted from these resources. Thats why usually a high lvl craftman has more income then a high level gatherer does.

[MrDDT]

Not sure if making it faster to reach a higher skill really does anything to address a macro problem.

Never tried it but I'm guessing if you get a macro for a certain skill once, it remains good to go for the future?

Also guessing the idea is to make the high levels quicker so as to not warrant the time to write a macro... but it makes the macro faster as well. Question becomes does one macro overnight while they sleep, or during dinner? Not to mention I'd bet most people using these macros wouldn't know how to write one to save their lives. They probably get it from their friend who got it from someone else.

Shorter skill-up time means someone who has their macros ready for various skills can bounce around that much more easily and quicker.

Macro would also pretty much kill a rapid skill decay.

Macro does nothing for rapid skill decay. All it does is allows you to put time into something you normally wouldn't have the time to put into it.

Also by lowering the time it takes to get to max skill level you lessen the effect of a macro. Lets say, you have a goal to buy a plane. If the plane costs 1,000,000 dollars and you can get 100$ an hour, then it would take you 10,000. Which means as a player you would have to spend 10k hours playing, or someone could spend 10,000 hours macroing. Lets say you play 2 hours a day. It would take you 5000 days to get max level. While a macroer could play 20+ hours a day. Only taking 500 days to get max level. So they could be at max level for 4500 days. Now lets say it took, 10 hours to get to max level. You could get there in 5 days, while a macroer could get there in .5. Which means effectively they are not max level very long at all, so what if they could change their skills by the day. You would still have a max skill you can use in game for as long as you want. Macroing would then be really not needed and not worth the risk to get banned for something people can do easy on their own.

Skill decay kills people that want to macro btw. DFO had/has a major macroing problem. Mostly because of enforcement but also because there is no cap. So people feel they need all the skills, but to get them they would have to spend years playing.

Anyways I dont want to get into the macroing problem. It should be clear that faster skill gain removed the need for macros, as the risk vs reward isnt really there. Wouldnt you be more likely to risk your account for 1000s of hours saved? Or would it be equal when it was only saving you a few hours? For a few hours, people are likely not to risk macroing.

Yeah...my dream game is a game where leveling is impossible to macro and its actually fun. Wish I knew how can that be accomplished...perhaps there is no way, skilling is repetitive by nature and even the funniest method gets boring if you have to do that for thousand times. But still, I haven't given up hope yet.


High level skill (if its hard to reach) is a very valuable thing and great for trading. Your tribe may own a lots of chalk or bone, but if they haven't got a good crafter to make something out of it then they do need to trade for the crafted good.


I guess you missed the part where I said people would be limited for 1 recipe (or one set in case of armor) per level.

If anyone can reach max level in 4-5 days then there will be no trading for crafted goods. In a game the really valuable stuffs are items not resources, so this is not good for the economy imo. In a good game resources are the base of the market, very needed, but the really expensive stuffs are high level items crafted from these resources. Thats why usually a high lvl craftman has more income then a high level gatherer does.

Why would my tribe not have a good crafter? Im confused here. Is it because they lack the resources thus wouldnt have trained that skill?
I dont know what you mean by "per level" isnt there unlimited levels currently in game? So wouldnt that mean they could have them all over time? Please explain what you mean by "level" if its not what Im thinking.


Which I agree, but I dont see how allowing everyone to have all skills is limiting crafted goods. Can you explain how allowing people to have all skills at the same time is limiting crafted goods in anyway?

[Jadzia]

Why would my tribe not have a good crafter? Im confused here. Is it because they lack the resources thus wouldnt have trained that skill?
I dont know what you mean by "per level" isnt there unlimited levels currently in game? So wouldnt that mean they could have them all over time? Please explain what you mean by "level" if its not what Im thinking.


Which I agree, but I dont see how allowing everyone to have all skills is limiting crafted goods. Can you explain how allowing people to have all skills at the same time is limiting crafted goods in anyway?

If skilling up takes a lot of time there will be less high level crafters, and these crafters will be limited to 1 recipe per level...so its likely that your tribe won't have a high lvl one from every craft and recipe.

Per level I mean the crafting level....let's say there are 5 different lvl 80 leather armor sets. A player would only be able to learn 1 set out of this 5.

If it takes a year to max a skill you can bet that there will be less maxed crafters (let's leave out the problem of macroing now). Now if these crafters can only make 1 set of the highest level armor or weapon, then there will be a big demand for these crafters and for these goods.

[MrDDT]

If skilling up takes a lot of time there will be less high level crafters, and these crafters will be limited to 1 recipe per level...so its likely that your tribe won't have a high lvl one from every craft and recipe.

Per level I mean the crafting level....let's say there are 5 different lvl 80 leather armor sets. A player would only be able to learn 1 set out of this 5.

If it takes a year to max a skill you can bet that there will be less maxed crafters (let's leave out the problem of macroing now). Now if these crafters can only make 1 set of the highest level armor or weapon, then there will be a big demand for these crafters and for these goods.

First off, you can only have 1 recipe, and it takes a year to level up a skill you can toss solo players right out the window. Is this what your goal is? I will dispute the other stuff after I have an answer hear or the debate here.