Feedback Request: carts/mounts transport

[ivolta]

I think we need to keep it simple. I don't think we need mounts at this point. There are too many decisions with mounts and for me the issue is carrying heavy loads, not faster travel. I would like to see some form of cart or pack animal for carrying heavy loads. I would like to be able to get 200 bricks, five long logs, or 20 short logs back to my place in a reasonable amount of time. I have no problem with the cart or animal being fully lootable if I die, and I am not looking for faster than running travel, in fact I wouldn't mind if speed was reduced, say to 60% of running speed. A cart, a harness, a travois, a wheel barrow; any of these items would work. I do think whatever we come up with needs to be able to handle rough terrain, because there is so much of it, at least in my area. Limiting the method to roads or grass would do me no good.

[Dubanka]

Why can't we ride bears, mule deers and native animals already in-game. They are coded already as models, you would have to do new animations and perhaps some recoding and mount coding, but that should be about it?

I mean, in Asia you rode Elephants.. In desert countries and north Africa you used Camels. In the Andes you used Llamas. It's mostly the European countries that has used Horses extensively (and north American Indians - to some extent).
- I don't see the problem in riding a Mule Deer, at all, a bear might be more tricky realism wise, but if you think of it as an aggressive animal, you're quite wrong. They're quite peaceful if you leave them to themselves and they're not with cubs.
Of course you don't ride a Coyote or Raccoon, they simply don't have the body mass for your weight.
They'd be squeezed kittens..

uh have you seen a mule deer?
a large muley is 250 pounds. you're not going to ride it...unless you're like 50 pounds.

now you could ride an elk or a moose...

you're not going to ride a bear...their body just isn't shaped right. You might use one as a pack animal (just like you might a deer...as llamas are used in that manner as well) but riding one? not gonna happen.
and black bears are fairly docile...grizzlies and the like...completely different story there.

[MrDDT]

I think we need to keep it simple. I don't think we need mounts at this point. There are too many decisions with mounts and for me the issue is carrying heavy loads, not faster travel. I would like to see some form of cart or pack animal for carrying heavy loads. I would like to be able to get 200 bricks, five long logs, or 20 short logs back to my place in a reasonable amount of time. I have no problem with the cart or animal being fully lootable if I die, and I am not looking for faster than running travel, in fact I wouldn't mind if speed was reduced, say to 60% of running speed. A cart, a harness, a travois, a wheel barrow; any of these items would work. I do think whatever we come up with needs to be able to handle rough terrain, because there is so much of it, at least in my area. Limiting the method to roads or grass would do me no good.

Why would roads and grass do you no good?

[Osirrus]

Carts what should they do?
Carts should be for moving bulk materials like large amounts of bricks long logs and multiple baskets all full of various stuff

How should they do it?
there should be a flat space on the cart where you can place items (so others can see if you are carry logs, baskets. brick piles w/e)

Do you ride in it?
i would love to see various types of "cart" ranging from
1. a simple wheel barrow/drag sled that everyone can make and use if they desire.
2. a larger four wheeled human powered wheel barrow that multiple people can push

there should be several different version of the hand carts some with wheel move faster but carry less others with sled carry more but move slow etc

the first two^ everyone should have access to but the following should be rare

3. a dog sled (eventually when we get animal taming) high taming skill means more dogs can be added? more dogs = sled travels faster?
4. a slow speed heavy goods wagon pulled by horse/ox capable of hauling very heavy loads again same as dog sled more animal pulling = capable of carrying more weight
5. a high speed light goods wagon. more animal = more speed
6. a stage coach that can carry multiple people over long distance

Is it faster or slower?
carts should allow you to move larger amounts of materials so the humsn powered ones dont neccassarily need to be faster. but the ones pulled by animals see above^

Do they carry more items?
yes this is the reason everyone want carts. but with a flat stackable area on the cart people can chose to stack a load of logs or several baskets for example

Do they carry more items and move faster?
some of the very rare ones should. but should reqiure hard to get parts multiple animals pulling etc

Is it a wheel barrow (people powered) or horse (animal powered)?
both. many and varied

Should it be faster or slower thank running or walking?
they should have encumberance levels like characters do now. load too much and you slow them down.

there should always be ways of catching up to a cart to pvp it

What happens when you die does it stay behind or or do you lose it?
when you die the items on the cart should become lootable in exactly the same way as the items on a player character becomes lootable on death. but once the timer has counted down the player and the cart should respawn back at the totem with whatever was on the cart - in order for that not to be exploited death penalties have to be in place at same time

And what type of transport would you expect to see?
horses oxen bears donkeys etc anything big enough to be ridden and all should be able to be filled up with items and lead on foot as a pack mule

would be cool to see chariots, stage coaches etc

So basically what you think carts/mounts transport should be.
in a nutshell a way to move either the player character. groups of players and large amounts of heavy good around the map quicker.

but should also at the same time provide PvP opportunities

risk and reward

do you risk moving everything on a cart/sled all at once by yourself or with your tribe protecting you. a cart could/should be a viable pvp target. and could help create pvp hotspots, stimulate tribal warfare etc

[China]

Excellent ideas Osirrus - this is the way I invision it also.

I think that the terrain should affect the carts in the same manner that it does the character. They should be able to traverse the world on roads and the rest of the terrain, but just like a charater does, ie manuever around rocks and trees, would crash & burn if driven off a cliff, faster on roads, much slower up slopes and mountains.

I'm not certain about rivers and streams - perhaps slowly float? or at least slower than a character swimming.

[MrDDT]

What happens when you die does it stay behind or or do you lose it?
when you die the items on the cart should become lootable in exactly the same way as the items on a player character becomes lootable on death. but once the timer has counted down the player and the cart should respawn back at the totem with whatever was on the cart - in order for that not to be exploited death penalties have to be in place at same time

For the love of god NO.

This would be so exploited. I mean geez, I can see it now alts could take back like 5x what they take now haha.

[NorCalGooey]

Exactly, alts you dont care about the death penalty.

[b_ulam]

Rothschilds Carts
I know the following wall of text is intimidating, but please read on and post suggestions, because im sure i didn't get everything right
IMO
Carts should be composed of wheels and hulls which are built seperately then combined.

-A wheel would be an item which fits into a back slot, hence one can carry up to 4 of the same wheel.

-A hull would be a project which is build and has wheels added after it is built.

-Each hull will have a number of wheel spots based on its design.

-Wheels break and need to be replace periodically. A cart must have all whells the same type.

-The wheels used will affect how and where the cart moves.

-The hull used will affect what and how much can be carried.

-Each Hull with have a number of slots in which either a basket or a group of items which stack into the 'back' slot may be carried

There should be multiple different wheel types. Unless specified, The wheels only travel on road and grey road safely. You can drive your cart anywhere, but if you drive it onto the wrong terrain too much the wheels will break and need to be replaced. Even shallow water will damages wheels unless otherwise specified.

-Where wheels breakdown will be Poisson distributed over how far you've gone with normal mean breakdown at 1024 meters.

- Foragers Stone Wheel
- Tools: Hammer, Chisel, craft knife
- Materials: 1Rock, 1twigs / wheel
- Advantage: Ability to travers Grass/Branches (1/2 break frequency on grass/ branches)
- Handicap: Slow (3/4 run speed)

- Scrappers Metal Wheel
- T: Pliers, Wrench, Hammer
- M: 2mediummetalsheets 1metalrod 4bolts / wheel
- A: Wheel Durability, Ability to travel on Stone most efficiently (1/2 norm break frequency on stone)
- D: slow (3/4 run speed)

- Scavengers Plastic Wheel
- T: Pliers, Bevel, screwdriver
- M: 2mediumplasticsheets, 1plasticrod, 4screws, 2 junk plastic / wheel
- A: Ability to travel through shallow water (1/2 norm break frequency in water)
- D: Fragile (breaks 4/3 as often)

- Scavengers Rubber Wheel
- T: CraftKnife, punch, bevel
- M: 4Rubber scrap, 1 plastic rod, 2 junk plastic / wheel
- A: Can traverse all terain, high durability (3/4 break frequency)
- D: very very slow (1/2 run speed)

- Pioneers Wooden Wheel
- T: Hammer, Chisel, Plane, Screwdriver
- M: 4mediumwoodsheets, 1mediumwoodpole, 4screws
- A: best Speed (1 run speed)
- D: fragile (4/3 break frequency)

- Weavers Heavy Grass Plate Wheel
- T: Weaver, Lasher
- M: 1HeavyGrassPlate, 2twine, 1branch /wheel
- A: Easily repaired in the field, the damaged wheel can be repaired as opposed to replaced
- D: fragile, slow (3/4 run speed, 4/3 break frequency)

- the hulls should vary in amount and type of materials they can carry.
The cart will not prevent you from loading too much onto it, but overburdening your cart will increase the rate at which your wheels decay.

-Wheelbarrow Hulls (Faster, 1 man, 1 wheel)

-Metal Wheelbarrow Hull (1 wheel)
-T: Pliers, Wrench
-M: 20 bolts, 4 medium metal Sheets, 2 medium metal handles
-4 back/pack slots

-PLastic Wheelbarrow Hull (1wheel)
-T: Craft KNife, Scredriver
-M: 10 screws, 4 medium plastic sheets, 2 medium plastic handles
-4 back/pack slots

-Wooden Wheelbarrow Hull (1wheel)
-T: Plane, Saw, Scredriver
-M: 20 screws, 4 medium wood sheets, 2 medium wood handles
-4 back/pack slots

-WeaversHEavyGrassWheelbarrowHull (1wheel)
-T: Weaver, Lasher
-M: 4heavygrassplate 4grasstwine, 2 branches
-4 back/pack slots

-RickshawHulls (Moderate Speed 1 man, 2wheels)
**********I know rickshaws carry people but im not sure what to call something that looks like that, with two handles which you pull behind you.*************

-Metal Rickshaw Hull (2 wheel)
-T: Pliers, Wrench
-M: 40 bolts, 4 large metal Sheets, 2LongMetalHandle
-8 back/pack slots

-PLastic Rickshaw Hull (2wheel)
-T: Craft KNife, Scredriver
-M: 20 screws, 4 large plastic sheets, 2 longPLasticHandle
-8 back/pack slots

-Wooden Rickshaw Hull (2wheel)
-T: Plane, Saw, Scredriver
-M: 40 screws, 4 large wood sheets, 2longwoodhandle
-8 back/pack slots

-WeaversHEavyGrassRickshawHull (2wheel)
-T: Weaver, Lasher
-M: 16heavygrassplate, 8grasstwine, 2branches
-8 back/pack slots

Just these items will yield 42 different carts which we can construct

Additionally I would Like to see watergoing crafts. In order to move your craft you will need to be on it with a paddle equiped in your hands (a paddle would be a two handed item).

-kayaks and Canoes would be 1 and 2 man watergoing vessles respectively, which work like finished carts. rafts would work like floating platforms.

-In order to move a raft, canoe or kayak one will need to equip a paddle.

-As IRL kayak paddles can be used to paddle any canoes kayaks or rafts, these will be the only type of paddle make.

-Canoes and Kayaks will have slots in which filled bins or back-slot-items can be placed.

-Canoes/Kayaks/Rafts will not break down, but paddles will with use.

Paddles
Weavers Grass kayak Paddle
-T: Lasher, Weaver, Craft KNife
-M: 1Heavy grass plate, 1 branch, 4grass twine

Scrappers Metal kayak Paddle
-T: pliers, wrench
-M: small metal sheet, long metal handle, 2bolts

Scavengers Plastic kayak Paddle
-T: craft knife, bevel,
-M: small plastic sheet, long plastic handle, 2 rivets

Pioneers Wooden kayak Paddle
-T: PLane, CraftKNife, hammer
-M: Small Wood Sheet, long wood handle, 2 nails

Trappers Bone kayak Paddle
-T: Hammer, Chisle, Screwdriver
-M: 4 flatbone, 2 roundbones, 4 small bones, 10 screws

Kayaks (1man)
Scavengers plastic kayak (1man,2 slots, 4x swim speed)
-T: screwdriver, craftknife, pliers
-M: 4 large Plastic Sheet, 40 screws,

Scrappers metal kayak (1man,3 slots, 2.5x move speed)
-T: wrench, pliers
-M: 4 large metal sheets, 60 bolts,

Pioneers Wooden kayak (1man,2slots, 4x move speed)
-T: PLane, CraftKNife, screwdriver
-M: 4 Large wood PLate, 40 screws

Canoes (2men paddling, a third can sit in the middle. This will not move with only 1 man paddling. Only the person in the back seat has the ability to steer.)

Scavengers plastic canoe (2man, 8 slots, 4x swim speed)
-T: screwdriver, craftknife, pliers
-M: 8 large Plastic Sheet, 40 screws, 2 medium plastic poles

Scrappers metal canoe (2man, 12 slots, 2.5x move speed)
-T: wrench, pliers
-M: 8 large metal sheets, 60 bolts, 4 medium metal poles

Pioneers Wooden canoe (2man, 8 slots, 4x move speed)
-T: PLane, CraftKNife, screwdriver
-M: 8 Large wood sheets, 40 screws, 2 medium wood poles

Rafts (1 man to paddle)
-Rafts would be like platforms and you would place items on them as you do on the ground now.
-Anyone can stand on it and you can move as much as you can squeeze on
-Rafts would be the same size as floors are now.

-Grass Raft (0.9 swim speed)
-T: LAsher, Weaver,
-M: 16 light grass plate, 20 grasstwine

-Branch raft (0.9 swim speed)
-T: Craft Knife
-M: 10 branches, 10 twigs, 20 cloth or grass twine.


-If you die your cart or boat remains where you were when you died and is fully lootable. Your attacker can pick up your vehicle and continue using it if he/she wishes.
-These are all human powered vehicles.
- The ground based vehicles carry more but do not move faster. they may move slower depending on the cart
-The water based vehicles carry more and move faster

[MrDDT]

These are good ones Roth.
But as I said before many issues.
Like foragers dont use things like woodenhandles. They use rock, grass, twigs etc

Also the types of tools used.
Things like cloth sheets, but no scissors or needle used.

Also balancing issues. 4x the speed of swimming? WOW that is really fast.

Anyways, I would like to see these ideas in game, balanced and put in. But first I think we should stick with slow carts rather than mounts and boats for fast travel. Then as things get put into place come back and look at fast mounts and faster travel.

[b_ulam]

These are good ones Roth.
Also balancing issues. 4x the speed of swimming? WOW that is really fast.

If youve ever used a kayak youd probably say 4x is reasonable. Im not michael phelps, but i sure can kayak fast with my scronny arms. These boats will never take you exactly where you want to go so youll need to unload once you reach shore and continue on foot. Boats are secondary. Not nearly as important as carts, but imo boats would be essential for trading with ppl across the lake.