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  1. #1

    Great post about PvP and PvE type players in MMO's

    Hello,

    The OP, and many who have posted in support of him, are absolutely correct here. The bottom line is simple: if there is no risk versus reward metric for PvP, with both individual and broad scale implications, then PvP is just an e-sport.

    One note before I go any further: there's nothing wrong with e-sport. It's just that if I want that, I'll play a shooter or RTS. This, I think answers the question PvP players always get from the hardcore PvE community of, "if you want to PvP, why don't you just play a shooter?" The answer that I want my actions to have consequences. I want my destruction of you to mean something, and I am willing to risk that my loss will mean something as well.

    This is something that I have come to believe that many PvE players either cannot or will not understand. The hardcore PvE player defines his goals around the repetition of an action, the raid, which carries little risk and perhaps some reward, but has no broader impact in the game. For whatever reason, this is what they want, and they will not accept that other people enjoy different aspects of a game.

    Because developers want to maximize subscriptions, they will attempt to cater to both playstyles. Because so many hardcore PvE players are so risk averse, and because they make up a large faction of the MMO community, they have a strong impact on developers' ideas. And so, developers attempt to cater to both by separating the predators from the prey. There are grazing areas, and there are violent colluseums, but the world is segregated. This is the WoW model, and it is not reflective of what we would call a virtual world. Rather, it is a collection of different games on a single server.

    Developers can make the arena as "fun" as they want, but they will ultimately fail to deliver what the PvP community wants so long as they cannot influence the greater savannah. Further, because a segregated world is so unnatural, developers who choose this path cannot make a virtual world. The beauty of a virtual world is that it creates all sorts of interesting emergent play, like virtual economies, which are actually beneficial to the non-PvP player.

    If the hardcore PvE player would have a bit longer vision, he would see that, if he would give up just a bit of safety, the returns, in the form of emergent gameplay, vastly outweigh the loss of absolute security. This is something that PvP players understand because they are familiar with risk versus reward metrics. The PvE player, being less familiar with those metrics, and having been catered to by games like WoW, are understandably less equipped to see this natural outcome.

    Now, the difference between the real world savannah and the virtual one is that, in the latter, the gazelle's have the option of not playing. So, the trick is to set a balance point where gazelles have lots of grass to graze on in safety, but the best, or certain unique grass, requires venturing into the savannah to obtain. The penalties must also be balanced; they must sting, but not so much that the risk versus reward metric causes gazelles to never venture into the savannah, or worse, that they simply choose another game. This is the integrated approach that games like Eve do so well.

    Many will argue against this position, but it is because they are gazelles. They want all the grass in their safe pastures and to leave the lions and hyenas to just fight, but without the reward of any tender meat. Of course I do not blame the gazelle; it is human nature to argue in your own self-interest. However, if we continue down this road, then MMOs will continue to be just games and not truly virtual worlds.
    Please read and share your opinion....
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2
    Interesting post. It's clearly written by a PvP player, and the only problem is that he doesn't understand the thinking and the motivation of a hardcore PvE player. When I say hardcore I mean someone like me, who hates every form of forced PvP. No problem with optional PvP at all ( be it flagged or separated zones).

    His main argument is that the 'gazelles' should accept the role of being gazelles and should pay for a game they don't really enjoy...and in return they get a truly virtual world. But this 'truly virtual world' is a world a PvP player wants, not a PvE one. I do love huge, open virtual worlds with living economy...but that doesn't require open world FFA PvP. In my virtual world there is no forced PvP. As long as FFA PvP is there it's not really enjoyable for me.

    And its not because of the fear of a loss or something like that. It has nothing to do with it. That's why the risk and reward argument never convinces a hardcore PvE player. Risk is not what we want to avoid, thus reward for it won't do anything. What I want to avoid for any cost in a game I pay for and I play in my free time for enjoyment is meeting assholes and abusive players. And unfortunately, FFA open PvP games seem to attract this type. As long as the game's mechanic allows players to grief others they will. I know there are ways to grief others in every game...but there are way much more possibilities in an FFA PvP game. I can grief others even in ATITD, which has no combat at all, still you will hardly find any griefer there.

    So these are my thoughts It's not realistic to ask a player to pay and play a game he/she doesn't enjoy just to make other (PvP) players happy. There is nothing there in return for the PvE player.

    I'm no doubt a player who really hates forced PvP. I'm sure there are other people who consider themselves as PvE players, but at the same time enjoys the thrill of an open PvP environment. These PvE players are the ones who could make good 'gazelles', but seems there are not enough of them.

  3. #3
    I must agree with Jadzia on this one i am also a PvE player. Like with this game i like the hunting, building and crafting not the PvP part of it. If they were to allow tribal areas to be PvP then i would have to rethink my subscriptions to the game

  4. #4
    I do agree with them that PVP shouldnt be forced on players. It should be risk vs reward. Having safe areas is a good thing for a game. But also having an area that is of higher PVP risk and PVPers rewarded for risking their efforts would help all 3 types be happy.
    Non PVPers will be happy for safety areas able to do what they like there, with basic rewards (much like we have now).
    Middle of the road PVPers who like it when they want it, and want safety at other times can go to these risky areas and get some rewards for it. (Sorta like going near the mist for mutants)
    PVPers risking what they have will have something to fight for and protect, being rewarded for the risk of loss. (Sorta like living near the mist with all the mutants)





    P.S.

    Why are you even playing this game if you dont find it fun? This game has always said it would be FFA PVP. Its never hid that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    As long as FFA PvP is there it's not really enjoyable for me.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  5. #5
    Very good post, But this is the one point I agree with the most.
    the trick is to set a balance point where gazelles have lots of grass to graze on in safety, but the best, or certain unique grass, requires venturing into the savannah to obtain. The penalties must also be balanced; they must sting, but not so much that the risk versus reward metric causes gazelles to never venture into the savannah, or worse, that they simply choose another game.
    I'm more PvE, But I like the idea that the best things in the game would be out in the open(so to speak) for all to fight for. To me it's the same idea that a builder would want, If you can build anything without work or risk, You will never feel as if you did anything. and When it comes to finding rare mat/items or new tech it should not go without risk. But then I like the thought of having a good mix of PvP and PvE gamers all working together in one tribe.

    John Wooden ~ Winning takes talent, to repeat takes character.
    Benjamin Spock ~ Trust yourself. You know more than you think you do.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    P.S.

    Why are you even playing this game if you dont find it fun? This game has always said it would be FFA PVP. Its never hid that.
    Because I've only been attacked once during all this time (in last March, lol), and I was able to run away easily then. The game does have PvP in theory, but thankfully (from my point of view of course) it doesn't work right now. And that's why that type of player I'd like to avoid has left the game. They were here a year ago, but when they saw that their griefing opportunity is very limited, they left. Still, if there wasn't even the possibility to be attacked when I don't want it, I would like the game much much more.

    I love games with separated open PvP-safe zones, since going to the PvP zone is always optional. Just not the whole open world PvP stuff.

    RuneScape does it well imo. Or did it well when I was playing. It has a separated full loot PvP zone (the wilderness) with very high risk and reward. But the reward is available in other ways for the players who don't like to go there. Like a hat that can only be obtained in the PvP zone ( very expensive stuff in game), that I can buy from a PvPer. I can go there myself if I want to, but I'm not forced to. And I can earn a huge amount of money with peaceful activities without ever going to the wilderness, so I can buy the wildy zone stuffs easily. PvPer earn money in the way he likes, going to the wildy and risking, while I can earn the same amount of money while doing what I like. There is nothing in RS which is necessary for everyday life that could only be obtained in the wildy.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by aliksteel View Post
    Very good post, But this is the one point I agree with the most.

    I'm more PvE, But I like the idea that the best things in the game would be out in the open(so to speak) for all to fight for. To me it's the same idea that a builder would want, If you can build anything without work or risk, You will never feel as if you did anything. and When it comes to finding rare mat/items or new tech it should not go without risk. But then I like the thought of having a good mix of PvP and PvE gamers all working together in one tribe.
    I'am glad you quote that part because i think that is the most important point he made in the whole post. The thing is in a game were you got one char in a local enviroment were you have to focus on crafting or combat the PvE player needs the demand of PVP players and the PVP player need the item from PvE players to get an egde over his enemies.

    Darkfall doesn't have this ( skill everything, best PVPers are usually good crafters)
    Mortal Online doesn't have this ( 3 characters per account one crafter one PVP char and one evil char....)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    Interesting post. It's clearly written by a PvP player, and the only problem is that he doesn't understand the thinking and the motivation of a hardcore PvE player.
    While I prefer the added challenge of PVP I agree with Jadzia that although this guys post was an attempt at sounding impartial he is clearly of a set mind and partial to PVP. And although I also agree with the risk vs reward argument, I am not a fan of losing my tribe or tribe territory.

    I agree with DDT "also having an area that is of higher PVP risk and PVPers rewarded for risking their efforts would help all 3 types be happy." I would love to see the game add some high risk high reward areas. My question is how would they do this and not have everyone throw totems up there, or would that be part of the risk? The problem with this I see is you would end up with one or a few strong tribes dominating the "High reward" areas and no one else would be able to get in.

  9. #9
    Xsyon Citizen joexxxz's Avatar
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    Jadzia your way of thinking is kind of reminding me of WOW.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by joexxxz View Post
    Jadzia your way of thinking is kind of reminding me of WOW.
    I don't know WOW, I've never played that.

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