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  1. #1

    Exclamation Armor Nerf Issue!

    unclean666 Asks:

    So what I would like to know is how you plan on fixing all this to making hunting worth the time and making it fun again
    Xsyon Answers:



    I condensed your question to answer the main issue.

    Your concern is primarily with the stat 'nerf' on armor. The out of control stats caused several issues: None of the game systems were designed for stats in the range of 150-200. With stat gains so high on armor, regular stat gain over time is practically useless. Stats that primarily have effects limited at 100 (for crafting or resource gathering) become useless as starting stats as they can be replaced by sets of high stat armor when needed (with the coming crafting changes, 'high' stat suits for all stats, not just combat focused stats will be possible). There was a huge gap between mid level veteran players and a handful of players with high stat armor suits.

    Add this nerf made me aware that a stat gain of 25 point is not valuable to veteran players. It should be! This tells me that the issue is NOT in the actual stat gain, but the EFFECTS of these stats. A 25 point stat different SHOULD be noticeable. 100 points in a stat SHOULD be highly desirable and STATS in the range of 125 SHOULD be exceptional! These are the goals for the next round of changes.

    In conclusion, I feel that the armor stat nerf was a minor action but was our biggest step forward yet as it made me well aware of what truly needs to be adjusted and balanced.

    I'm sorry that we had to switch gears and focus on our website rather than the crafting update. It wasn't what we planned. This was highly recommended by the ad agency we're working with and it needs to be done.
    My main problem is the effect of stats, and the fact that you are forced into 3 or 4 stat types on your armor other than crafting suits.

    Now everyone is going to be running around in the EXACT same armor as everyone else, with pretty close to the same EXACT stats.

    People are going to Have 25STR/25AGI/25FOR/25SPI armor on because of your nerf, and just about everyone will have pretty much max STR/FOR/AGI because its so overpowering.

    On top of this, getting the quad type of gear is very easy to make, sure might not have 25 in every stat but going to have 15+ which means that even crafters who are crap, and gatherers who are crap will be able to get these suits.

    Where is the choice in players play style?

    Like I said before, I didnt boost FOR because my play style used AGI mostly. While others used a mix of FOR and STR, and still others used FOR or STR suits. (I list these 3 because those really are the only choices for basic everyday play because of how over powering they are).

    I dont see how 58% of your stat (120 base stat +80 bonus from armor +8 from tribe bonuses) isnt effective in your build. Yet you some how think that armor with less than a total of 16% is going to be a MAJOR effect.
    Sorry to say but 16% is crap, plus on top of that when you figure that most people are going to have 8 to 12% of that 16% its really down to 4%
    While base stats vary easy from 0 to 120.

    Old system was great for avg players too because they could use a suit and not have to grind for a year for 80+ stat points.
    Now the only way they can compete with vet players is to be a year + vet themselves.

    This idea is removing the worth of crafting, and removing the choice in the game on playstyles.

    You call this a "minor" change yet, this is the main reason I'm no longer playing, its the main reason a few others I know quit also. This has a HUGE effect on crafting and the value of crafters in game. Funny you just brush this off as a MINOR issue yet its one of the worst things I've seen done in game that totally blows off crafting.

    Whats even more funny is, I'm less of a crafter than most others in this game. Ive been forced into understanding crafting and being a crafter because pretty much all there is (and builder). You would think this change isnt a big deal to someone like me but even I can see how much this effects the livelihood of my crafters in my tribe, and other tribes, trade and world economy. All the gear now is not only trash or almost ineffective, but also crafters are just brushed aside as not really even needed or wanted. With little to no skills players can craft gear thats mostly as effective as top end crafters who spent 1000s of hours, and tons of working together with gatherers to make this gear.

    Even using your own thoughts here that you want gear to have that major of effect, you are still doing both with the current set up you have of having 25/25/25/25 stats on gear. Just you are removing it from players that want to have a choice instead of being a clone of everyone else.

    You have already built into the game diminishing returns on high stats. Why is it a problem when people stack it? Because now they can craft gear better by putting on a very very hard and costly suit to get? Sounds like a great working system to me.
    The problem is no decay on these suits, not in combat, and not in crafting. Not the fact that people can get them.

    I would like to see what other people have to say on this issue. I dont know anyone who thinks its a good idea other than Xsyon himself.

    Points in the topic.
    i)What is the armor nerf going to do to help economy?
    ii)Was there a problem with the old system?
    iii)Do you feel that high end armor is worth taking the time it takes to make it?

    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  2. #2
    I find this thread very funny.

    You quit playing because in an effort to level the playing field, it affected you so much you dont have fun... awwww....

    This is how almost everyone that quit has felt for one reason or another.

    IF... yes, IF he makes changes that bring animals more into balance then I say what he says his plans are is a step in the right directions.

    I actually think he is now listening to more average players and planning for all types rather than listening to the very few at the top that were so OP as to make all effort seem futile.


    Well done Jordi in curbing the pitbull.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Mactavendish View Post
    I find this thread very funny.

    You quit playing because in an effort to level the playing field, it affected you so much you dont have fun... awwww....

    This is how almost everyone that quit has felt for one reason or another.

    IF... yes, IF he makes changes that bring animals more into balance then I say what he says his plans are is a step in the right directions.

    I actually think he is now listening to more average players and planning for all types rather than listening to the very few at the top that were so OP as to make all effort seem futile.


    Well done Jordi in curbing the pitbull.

    I dont think you understand what this is doing. This is going to effect me LESS than it effects everyone else.

    See you dont understand is what will happen. So instead of me having 200 AGI and 120STR, 120FOR. I will now have 150AGI, 150STR and 150FOR.

    Now on the outside the effect looks the same. Or close to the same just lower high end AGI. Problem is that 200AGI, 120, 120 is more effective for me but overall worse. Because my PLAYSTYLE allows me to want to pick AGI. But now everyone that is top end is forced into the same playstyle now, of being well rounded.

    So you still wont be able to kill me, as I will still have high stats problem is I dont get to play how I want.
    Ive tried to explain this before with how other people mostly pick other stats than I do.

    So you had people like Dang and Deacon would go another route than I did. They went with 200FOR, 120STR, 120AGI. Because they have a different playstyle than I do. Players like you will still not be able to reach the stats we have, plus the effects of high stats have diminishing returns. All this does is remove the CHOICE in the types of armors we can have not the true effects.
    That choice is also causing issues for crafters as now because of the lack of choice the effective playstyles are really null, because instead of needing high skills to CRAFT +80 armor or even +60 armor. Now you can make +20,20,20,20 armor with moderate skills.

    If you think this is going to "HELP" the avg COMBAT player? It wont. If you think it will help the avg CRAFTER then you are right. This is not a major nerf to the combat players, its a MAJOR nerf to the crafters.
    But it also hurts them in a way too because now they cant make choices in play style, plus they wont be able to sell their wares as just about anyone can make them.

    Where it hurts the combat players is because we needed our hunting to be worth something to crafters (for them to craft us high end stuff for our hunted goods) they don't need high skilled hunters. Making hunting a poor resource gathering skill (still one of the stronger ones but none the less nerfed)


    So you think its going to reign advanced players like me in on combat, but all this is really doing is hurting GREATLY the crafters worth in game, and the "hunter's" worth in game.

    Again here is an issue that you think I'm trying to beef up myself, or prevent me from being nerfed when its not true at all. I have a drive to play this game but it requires all types of players, Crafters, PVPers, and even PVEers. You remove too many people from any slot on that list and it hurts my fun and playstyle.
    Why dont you READ what I wrote and think of it coming from someone else and understand how this effects people OTHER than DDT, and read WHY. I think you are too caught up in the messenger instead of the message.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  4. #4
    I for one am really interested in the outcome of this conversation. As for playing for over a year now I have never fully focused into 1 trade as the effort/time involved in relation to gain and fear of them changing things has always played on my mind.
    I have always aimed to focus on combat and hunting which the game has never really been overly friendly for leveling (standing hitting your tribe mate for hours not included . But through natural gameplay as it should be. Is my time spent hunting going to make my bones and leather valuable to others for trading and making worthwhile combat suits to different playstyles, this is what I need to know.

    I dont know if many have the knowledge or for that matter want to share it but i would ask the following initial questions:-

    If you start a fresh combat character with 90str,90fort,90spirit,90charm, 90agility base naked stats. Over time grinding (which id imagine is alot) you increase the base stat for fortitude and strength to 100 what is the approx base HP gain and gain in damage dealt?

    Is there a cap on the max base stats through grinding?

    Is the HP gain from 80-90fort stat the same as from 90-100?

    What is the approx damage mitigation from a basic bone suit to a supreme suit?

    What is your guess at what a typical vets base fort/strength are?

    If your suit has +25 fort bonus what HP gain can you expect which would bring a noob from 90 to 115fort?

    To make one of the max level bone suits you would need all of the the following, Master tools/High level Hunter/High Level Bonecrafter/High Level Scavenger/Group to take on the high level creatures for mats......is this correct?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Luthais
    http://www.xsyonmercs.com
    Ur ye Scottish? A um. Ye ken ur a true Scot if ye can properly pronounce Ecclefechan,Auchtermuchty and Aufurfuksake. Yer used tae 4 seasons in wan day. Ye kin faw aboot pished wioot spilling yer drink. Ye kin make hael sentences jist wi swear wurds. Ye know irn bru is a hang-er cure. Ye actually understawn this message

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by inhabit View Post
    I for one am really interested in the outcome of this conversation. As for playing for over a year now I have never fully focused into 1 trade as the effort/time involved in relation to gain and fear of them changing things has always played on my mind.
    I have always aimed to focus on combat and hunting which the game has never really been overly friendly for leveling (standing hitting your tribe mate for hours not included . But through natural gameplay as it should be. Is my time spent hunting going to make my bones and leather valuable to others for trading and making worthwhile combat suits to different playstyles, this is what I need to know.

    I dont know if many have the knowledge or for that matter want to share it but i would ask the following initial questions:-

    If you start a fresh combat character with 90str,90fort,90spirit,90charm, 90agility base naked stats. Over time grinding (which id imagine is alot) you increase the base stat for fortitude and strength to 100 what is the approx base HP gain and gain in damage dealt?

    Is there a cap on the max base stats through grinding?

    Is the HP gain from 80-90fort stat the same as from 90-100?

    What is the approx damage mitigation from a basic bone suit to a supreme suit?

    What is your guess at what a typical vets base fort/strength are?

    If your suit has +25 fort bonus what HP gain can you expect which would bring a noob from 90 to 115fort?

    To make one of the max level bone suits you would need all of the the following, Master tools/High level Hunter/High Level Bonecrafter/High Level Scavenger/Group to take on the high level creatures for mats......is this correct?

    Let me answer this as best as I can.

    90STR to 100STR is a 5% bonus to damage. All other stats give 0 bonus to damage. HP gain would be +5, +12, +2, +1 = 20HP

    Currently there is no hard cap that I know of for stat gain through grinding, however, there is a strong soft cap at around 110. I would say no one has more than me and I'm at close just over 120 in one of my stats.

    Yes, I believe from all my testing each point of FOR gives the same HP no matter what level that FOR is.

    What is basic bone suit? Pretty much I would consider someone with 50 skill and 80stats making basic armor MOD to VHQ bone armor (as its very easy) makes about 30% less damage when attacked with someone with 100 skill in weapon/armed. Supreme set is about 38% less damage.

    I would say a vet that has been playing 5+ months would have around 95STR and 95FOR IF they started at 90 in those stats. If they just changed over after the stat changes, it is likely slightly less.

    90 to 115FOR is 30HP bonus.

    That is no longer correct to make the max suits currently. Right now you can max out bone suits without all that stuff, even as low as 70QL on items. Also there are no mutants so this is just going off normal animals which surely doesnt need a group to kill.
    This is due to change after his update of armor, and likely when mutants are back in the game. Plus things are a bit buggy right now as someone with 50 skill can max out the bonuses on armor easy.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  6. #6
    Xsyon Citizen
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    I believe that all that talk about "trading" of armor/weapons is just an excuse - Like Jordy said - the only "high" stats armors in the game (it was a very low number around 10 ?!?) was traded within the tribe - or not traded at all.

    The prices on the armors were ridiculus (ok, they are supreme ... but anyone with that much "nails" has probably a better source than trading) - so its actually not about trade!

    What was traded in the past? Shemes (Toolcrafting, Architecture, Wrainright), Tools, Carts and probably nails and grass twine? Am I right? MrDDT you and your tribe have been probably most active in trading - how many Supreme/Master armor set have you traded? How many of the armors with more than +25 on a stat have you ever traded (not within the tribe - but with other players outside your tribe) - I would bet: not so many - probably 1-2 sets ?

    So whats the point? Armor trading was never really reality - and it was *not* because there was no armor around "worth" trading - but ppl could just not aford them - and trading for mediocre armor was probably not an issue - as you could "do-it-yourself" as you have written so many times.

    So the nerf does *not* influence trade! Because there was never any real amount of trading going on with the old system anyhow.
    "Thou shalt not follow the null pointer, for chaos and madness await thee at its end."

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by tomduril View Post
    I believe that all that talk about "trading" of armor/weapons is just an excuse - Like Jordy said - the only "high" stats armors in the game (it was a very low number around 10 ?!?) was traded within the tribe - or not traded at all.

    The prices on the armors were ridiculus (ok, they are supreme ... but anyone with that much "nails" has probably a better source than trading) - so its actually not about trade!

    What was traded in the past? Shemes (Toolcrafting, Architecture, Wrainright), Tools, Carts and probably nails and grass twine? Am I right? MrDDT you and your tribe have been probably most active in trading - how many Supreme/Master armor set have you traded? How many of the armors with more than +25 on a stat have you ever traded (not within the tribe - but with other players outside your tribe) - I would bet: not so many - probably 1-2 sets ?

    So whats the point? Armor trading was never really reality - and it was *not* because there was no armor around "worth" trading - but ppl could just not aford them - and trading for mediocre armor was probably not an issue - as you could "do-it-yourself" as you have written so many times.

    So the nerf does *not* influence trade! Because there was never any real amount of trading going on with the old system anyhow.

    3 Sets of armor that were 75+ were traded OUTSIDE our tribe.
    5 Sets of >75 to 15 were traded outside out tribe.

    About a total of 10 sets of 75+ armor were made INSIDE our tribe.

    After nerf, 0 sets traded outside of tribe. 5 or so sets made inside the tribe checking the new sets out.

    Problem is that armor's "Worth" wasnt needed until just before the nerf to armor. Mutants were very easy and animals were bugged in water. After the animals were bugged in water, AND skills were capped per pool is when armor sets were starting to be asked, most than armor sets were armor pieces. Now, no one even cares. It should be much higher with Revs now also but its not due to armor's effect is so poor.

    Most armor was not sold in sets but in pieces, as most armor is very costly top end and low end its almost given away. Now ALL armor is given away as its soo easy to make, worse no one even wants it even if you give it to them. Clearly this is a problem with armor if giving it away is a problem.

    The "Do it yourself" or "DIY" type of days was just put to an end here with the stats/skill changes. There was not a long time with those changes to even seen what was going on. Most people were just starting to understand them. Then animals were broken, then other issues, then new patch with nerf. Heck they completely removed Mutants.


    Most commonly traded and asked for thing BY FAR is recipes. Its like 100 to 1.

    FYI all the armor sets that were 75+ were NOT traded for nails but for recipes and rare mats like +3.5STR Shadowbear leather to make the sets.

    *********************************

    Now yourself have even stated that our tribe and myself is one of the largest and most commonly traded tribe/players in the game. Do you think I'm saying this because it will help or hurt trading? Dont you think being as big of a trader I am I would post my view to help trade more?

    I promise you this, this "nerf" to armor is not effecting me as a combat PVPer, its effecting avg player to making them more avg, and effecting the solo player the most.

    I'm saying this because its what I believe is the best for the game. Whats best for the game is also best for me as a player as I want to see lots of people playing.


    Ive heard people saying "They needed to nerf the armor because new players can put on a +80 FOR suit and have more HP than me" things like that. Well guess what, new players cant afford those rare suits and not likely to use them, IF they did, you could likely (and would likely) lose them to people wearing a cheap suit of say +50 FOR and have MORE HP than them, killing them and taking their +80 suits. There is a reason new players dont were high end gear in a full loot game. Its because the vets wipe the floor with them because they are likely wear nearly as good suits but have more playing exp and better trained skills.


    Example.

    Dingse is ok at PVP, not the best but ok. He normally wears a +50FOR suit (these were fairly cheap about 10k nails while a +80 suit is around 75k nails) Dinsge would have around 160HP.
    New player would have around 160HP to 175HP with the +80FOR suit and max starting FOR.
    However because "New Player" has no skills in combat/armed they will hit Dingses for about 10 damage per attack. While Dingses will hit the new player for closer to 20.
    What new player is going to wear this type of suit of armor? Even if they could afford the 75k nails, they are still likely to lose this fight.


    Xsyon's beef with the +80 stat armor IMO is the fact that you have players abusing the system (Like I was doing no doubt). So they can have say 50DEX, and use a +80DEX suit to have 130DEX stat after armor buff able to craft top end gear, without having to work stats up to do it.
    Where he fails to see is that 130DEX isnt high end. 200DEX allows for high end. But to Xsyon its high end already, 200DEX to craft is kinda like over kill to him.

    My point is that any top end crafter will STILL focus stats to be good at their craft, thus all the +80 stat suits are doing is helping the AVG player make better than AVG gear in crafts they are not focused in.

    With the new cap to stats on each item, it doesnt matter if you have 200 in the crafting stat or 100 because you going to hit cap. So even avg players can make the "best" gear in the game which is way worse than the old best gear. Focus crafters will be no longer focused and craft everything again. So everyone can craft everything at near top end of the new nerfed gear. On top of that all the gear is going to be the same. STR/FOR/AGI/SPI/+?? type of stats. The +?? will be the +25 stat of choice.

    Anyways, believe me or not this is the worst thing that is happening to CRAFTING. Because its effects crafting at its base, hunting is going to be greatly effected by it also.

    The key to fixing the old way is not nerfing the amount of stats, its putting proper decay on gear when crafting AND when getting hit AND when attacking. This will prevent people from abusing the system removing these rare suits out of the game and putting proper values on rare items.

    Another thing that can be done in tandem with that is make the diminishing returns greater. This will help curb the focus and spec which is what is really the most abuse on the system. (I don't think this is needed but seems like people dont want people to "FOCUS" or "SPEC")
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  8. #8
    Alot of good info here thanks DDT (trying to digest it all into my mind .

    Im beginning to think that combat and crafting stats are too interlinked? What i mean by that is that Suits/armor should only boost combat actions, agi and HP etc and should not boost crafting at all. Crafting on the other hand could be boosted if they added something like tribal made crafting stations (like a butcher table in Mortal online) as an example.

    If it was split something like the above would the "nerf" really have been required at all. I may need to read all this again lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Luthais
    http://www.xsyonmercs.com
    Ur ye Scottish? A um. Ye ken ur a true Scot if ye can properly pronounce Ecclefechan,Auchtermuchty and Aufurfuksake. Yer used tae 4 seasons in wan day. Ye kin faw aboot pished wioot spilling yer drink. Ye kin make hael sentences jist wi swear wurds. Ye know irn bru is a hang-er cure. Ye actually understawn this message

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by inhabit View Post
    Alot of good info here thanks DDT (trying to digest it all into my mind .

    Im beginning to think that combat and crafting stats are too interlinked? What i mean by that is that Suits/armor should only boost combat actions, agi and HP etc and should not boost crafting at all. Crafting on the other hand could be boosted if they added something like tribal made crafting stations (like a butcher table in Mortal online) as an example.

    If it was split something like the above would the "nerf" really have been required at all. I may need to read all this again lol
    The nerf was because the # was to high, not really the effect according to what Xsyon posted. He sees that +80 is too high of a bonus.

    The reason why everyone (pretty much) will be using the STR/FOR/AGI/SPI is because the effects they have on everyday play.

    STR effects how much you can carry
    FOR effects how long you can do actions (crafting, running, attacking)
    AGI effects basic movement speed
    SPI effects exp gain


    Also you can easy put all 4 of those on items using animal parts.
    SPI is pretty much going to be on anything that has ANY animal part once mutants are back in due to the way they are buffed everytime from mutant parts.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  10. #10
    I am to the point of just not caring anymore anyway.There has been countless vets and people who know or who has a least a better understanding about how everything works in this game say how much the 25 cap sucks but they only say it in game and whisper and like always they just sit back and let people who have no idea what there talking about act like its a good thing because they think it will hurt someone they dont like.All it will really do is hurt the game in the long run because all the last few vets will be done with it because theres no reason left for them to even be here and the endless cycle of new people will join and quit but at some point that will stop and then you dont have anything at all.

    I can see this ending just like tools did where the only dam thing in the end people want is the recipes for artisan and master because this is just the next big step to make the game 100% solo game.Even if effects from stats is balanced better for lower numbers it still wont matter because with 25 as cap and more slots people will not have to hard a time getting the max on each armor part.They might not be able to get all slots/stats max on each part (i dont think anyone would be able to tbh) that what they do have or can get will be good enough for them.So trade increase yes but like everything else you craft in this game its the recipes that they are trading not the end product and that has to be one of the worest and dumbest things you can let happen to a game of this type.

    And to anyone who thinks this hurts combat type vets and puts them closer to even none pvp type vets then your the type of people that they need to stop listening to because i dont care what you nerf or do that you think it will theres one thing you cant change is the skills of the person them self and knowing how the game works.Im an good pvp player and ill never be a great pvp player because they change some thing thats just where I am and will stay and the same goes for people whos better and worse and the ones who blame the game or another player because there max vets with high end gear need to come to terms with where there skills are as a player because it wont change anything.

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