Feedback Request 03/11/2013 - Tribe Upkeep

[unclean666]

I was going to try and stay out of the whole upkeep thing as I never really care one way or another about it.But I see a huge problem that will imo make or break trade totems and currency in the game.

The reward/reason to sink all that currency into the upkeep has to be better then just a few stat points on tribe land.The trade totems use this currency and its what we will be converting to for traded goods from what we use now (nails).The problems is four stat points only on trade land just isent enough to make me want to sink all that hard earned money into upkeep and I have a feeling most people will not as well and if they do it will be a few times and they screw this im going broke and cant even buy anything I want now.So as time goes on no ones putting money in upkeep and inflation just killed this currency and your trade totems because im sure not giving up my goods for a currency that is becoming more worthless everyday.

Theres a world of things that can be done other then just a few stat points and it can change up by days or weeks or even making the type you put in the totem determine what effect/bonus you get.

A few examples.This week our tribe got the scavenging bonus the members that are scavenger builds are rewarded.
This week we got the terraforming bonus and terraforming time is cut in half per action.
This week we got the Hunting bonus and the hunters get a few more bones with carves or better quality odds etc.
This week we got the combat bonus that gives 8 str fort and agil on and off tribe land so the tribes worriers are now stronger for a week.
This week we got the building bonus and construction only needs half the mats this week.

You get the idea im not saying it has to be those and happen that way but something of that nature and that type of stuff would 100% make me excited to get the bonus that effects the stuff I enjoy doing in the game as im sure some of the ones that dont will make the people and toon builds that it does happy.

[MrDDT]

this system is bad all over. Im sorry disabling building, terraforming. my totem said 734 granite bricks, 47000 dollars, 47000 provision. Lets get real here, No tribe in this game in the years its been here has stayed active more then a few months. Ive restarted mine over 40 times, tried to keep it active and they always quit. This is a sandbox, Make this system for bonus's give a perk for that 1 member or all ofem contributing to get awesome boosted while on the tribe. Don't take away building, terraforming, etc. That's just nuts. People don't pay a sub to goto work, they do it to play a game. I pray to god you have a hard look at this as my tribes big and any1 elses that gets big, will have to spend 24/7 everyday ingame just to keep the land they spent years working on, adding people , Useable . Some of ya might not agree with me. But im sorry I spent years getting 49 members. Its not my fault they don't stick around, I just had 3 friends join the game and they seen this stuff and don't want no part of it. Reaslitable 100 a month of each sounds rite, as people have LIVES. and yes people I still play the game I just don't chat. don't care to.

734 granite is based on how many buildings you have, and don't forget its over 11 real days. Which is 67 granite a real day. Which is less than 6mins a day pulling granite for a tribe of 49 members or 7 seconds per REAL day per member.

If they can't handle 7 seconds a day gathering resources then they are likely not really playing Xsyon anyways.

Now the other stuff, I believe its way too fast for the rewards you get. +1 to +4 bonus inside a tribe area on stats for 1000s of dollars and provisions is not going to make anyone want to do it, they are just going to forget about the bonus.

You say "100" of each per REAL month? That would be literately less than 30seconds a MONTH for a tribe of 50 members. That's way to low.

You are not going to lose your tribe, you are not going to lose anything but a BONUS. If you are not playing (or any of your tribe members) they are just not getting the bonus, clearly they and you are not active if you cant afford some upkeep.

[MrDDT]

I know I can get 1 granite in about 6 seconds. That makes about 15 granite in 2 minutes. Then I have to transfer the 15 granite to the totem upkeep (with luck the granite is right next to the totem, my character can move about 400 granite with a cart). If I spend 60 minutes only on granite gathering and adding it to the totem - that would make about 400 granite an hour (loosing 50 granite due to energy management-eating&drinking-, lags and clicking) all in real time. Right next to the totem !
If I have about 5 minutes back and forth the granite is reduced to roughly 300 per hour). This calculation does not includes no "play" breaks ...
Still the granite has to be transformed into bricks (forgot about that) - well about 190 bricks per hour - not counting the time to create the hammer and chinsel for that work (my forager hammer breaks after ~150 bricks - with mansonry at 100).

How long should that 1 play time hour of "boring granite work" provide a tribe with the ability to terraform and build?

I would like the system be adapted so that e.g.: 2 players work for 1 real time hour to provide resources for a 30-50 player tribe to build for 1 real time week.

IMHO the system should be adapted to:
* overstock for 1/2 a game year season - so essentially 1 real time week
* drop rates adjusted so that all resources are spend in 2 game seasons (so essentially 4 real time weeks)
* change upkeep costs so that 2 players can re-stock the upkeep for 1 real time week in about 1 playing hour (so the upkeep that is payed in 1 real time week, can be replaced by working for 2 player hours)

This would mean that for a very large tribe (like Pawnee, The Praetorian Guards, IS) 1 player has to spend 2 playing hours a week to provide the upkeep for building (for 1 play week). 4 players are done in 30 minutes (roughly) - that makes sense, still gives the system some meaning and players that capture a huge part of the map - because they once had 60 members but are now alone - have to pay tribute to their large land.

Please keep in mind that this is only for building!

Any comments ?

I like a larger overstocking option (more than 2 game days is needed).
Not sure where you getting they need to be turned into bricks, but its just straight granite.

You say "2 hour per week" guessing, that's a real week. Also how large of a tribe is that? Just FYI, for Fatboy's tribe size (what he has built) it would be less than 2 hours a week. (Closer to 1 hour a week) This is just for the building rights.

I believe granite needed is fine, the balance on it based on how many buildings is fine, large tribes like IS, RR, should have 10+ active members per week playing, you break that down into just a few mins per person required to upkeep construction rights. Which not every week tribes will be doing.

Reserves and Provisions are WAYYYYY out of balance.

To add into part of the bonuses, not only do I believe that the "resources" should allow building and terraforming, but it should also allow increase energy regen and HP regen while on tribe lands. (Or under buildings). Reason for this, is there is a time where tribes will stop building, and having a bonus for finished tribes for resources would help economy.

I was going to try and stay out of the whole upkeep thing as I never really care one way or another about it.But I see a huge problem that will imo make or break trade totems and currency in the game.

The reward/reason to sink all that currency into the upkeep has to be better then just a few stat points on tribe land.The trade totems use this currency and its what we will be converting to for traded goods from what we use now (nails).The problems is four stat points only on trade land just isent enough to make me want to sink all that hard earned money into upkeep and I have a feeling most people will not as well and if they do it will be a few times and they screw this im going broke and cant even buy anything I want now.So as time goes on no ones putting money in upkeep and inflation just killed this currency and your trade totems because im sure not giving up my goods for a currency that is becoming more worthless everyday.

Theres a world of things that can be done other then just a few stat points and it can change up by days or weeks or even making the type you put in the totem determine what effect/bonus you get.

A few examples.This week our tribe got the scavenging bonus the members that are scavenger builds are rewarded.
This week we got the terraforming bonus and terraforming time is cut in half per action.
This week we got the Hunting bonus and the hunters get a few more bones with carves or better quality odds etc.
This week we got the combat bonus that gives 8 str fort and agil on and off tribe land so the tribes worriers are now stronger for a week.
This week we got the building bonus and construction only needs half the mats this week.

You get the idea im not saying it has to be those and happen that way but something of that nature and that type of stuff would 100% make me excited to get the bonus that effects the stuff I enjoy doing in the game as im sure some of the ones that dont will make the people and toon builds that it does happy.

All very good points, I believe that the bonuses currently do not warrant the cost of time to get them, and will do almost nothing in game.

Also a note, bonuses need to have effects OUTSIDE of tribe area. Most members will not care much just for a minor bonus inside a tribe area.

[fatboy21007]

my whole entire point here is the fact, people aren't going to pay a sub to grind resources just so they can build. and since this is going off buildings. Imagine a giant tower.... and wat decides how big a building really is? and yes 734 granite isn't that bad, but the fact if no one in the tribe wants skill decay nukeing skills cuz they gotta upkeep. Yea really crappy idea. I simply don't like this system, As yes if a tribe my size was fully active, sure they can do it, But lets face it here, that's impossible. so the few who do stay active have to spec into these skills just to keep there tribe useable. and ddt, I know u cant possibly be agreeing with the notion of Locking out terraforming, building on tribes. Upkeep should be 100% for nothing but bonus's perks to work towards. Not perks we should ALREADY get with are friggin totems. Just think, new player sets a totem down, to build etc, he has to do upkeep first, then do the building, and for each building he adds Upkeep rises. Wth, bad bad system as you are taking the only thing going for xsyon and killing peoples ability to do it. Now I ant got much built on my tribe cuz I knew 1 day this wat used to be *suggestion* might hit the game. Now that it has its nuts. This system doesn't encourage trade. It encourages uninstalls..lol Im all for a upkeep systems that benefits people feeding it. But I am 100% against any that takes away a tribes ability to function. Why not have terraforming bonus's, Building bonus's. Ie make a building with say Intel boosts, well if upkeeps paid you will have a crafting building that gives those bonus's. Etc. I think this is the type of system needed Bonus's to reward those who do the work , and choose which bonus they want for wat they are doing. Remember this is a sandbox, Or was, anymore this sandpit is getting more n more limiting and not making it much fun. So neither Remove skill decay or change upkeep to where it is purely for bonus's, This is a crap ton of skills ingame that everyone would love bonus;s on. hell even have add Quality to items that you craft if your bonus is 100% I see more benefits and more people willing to feed it just for that. but to feed it for the rite to keep building, terraforming, im sorry, Just no way in hell. Taking that way and making it a daily chore is not gaming, its clocking into work just to play. No matter if its small or large. Hell id hate to see wat ur bill is ddt..lol

[MrDDT]

Fayboy, a new person that has nothing build on a totem needs to upkeep nothing to build on it. Thus they wouldnt need to put resources in for upkeep.

It encourages trade because people will need resources for upkeep and bonuses.

You say that people will need "skills" they might not want, well they can lock them at - and never gain a skill and get the resources just fine. So there would be no skill decay, or stat decay. So there is no need to "spec" into a skill.

I do think using a bonus system is better overall.

About the # of people active in a tribe, tough luck that your tribe has zero people playing in it, you wont have to worry about building or terraforming when zero of you are active. If you have a tribe area that large, then you have to deal with costs that are more than someone taking up less land.

[the_cretin]

I would like to see upkeep affecting the size of a tribe. You just need to keep the cost low and perhaps only use this idea in a limited way for small tribes that are having a hard time expanding? You dont necessarily have to make huge tribes shrink for not paying immediately but over time is it such a bad idea to reduce the size of these inactive tribes? It might give them a reason to pop back in the game once a week to spend a couple hours playing the game.

It might sound nuts to a few people at first to have to pay a material upkeep for something they put their time and money into but to me it sound great because expanding the tribe seems impossible sometimes. A material upkeep for tribe size seems easier then trying to recruit lots of people to me. And it gives us something to do once per week.... nothing wrong with that!

I think of it like a business. A small business can still be successful and sometimes even require a lot of land space or just want to expand for new things. If we want storage spaces, gardens, open areas, building plots, trainging areas.. etc well it can be very hard when we have such small areas with little to no chance for expanding. I get ten times more free players join as I do sub accounts and neither type last for too long anymore.

As long as upkeep is kept manageable in 2-6 hours of play by 1 to 2 people at first (because this is average active players in a tribe) then it would be no problem. Also you could limit land growth by overstocking upkeep to perhaps 2.5 meters per 100 game days or something, and that way we can not grow so fast, just a little bit at a time and I think it could be good and fun for everyone.


Update: After trying it on the test server my only issue is with currency for tribal bonus. It wont get used often. Maybe instead use it for a bit of growth like I said and then if you dont pay for a period of 300 game days you lose your growth and go back to normal size. Had a few people in global that liked this idea.

[Nezdar]

Tribe Upkeep is ready for public testing. Please provide feedback here.


- I would like feedback on the amount of upkeep per tribe member.
- Provisions can be ignored. They will not be implemented with the first public upkeep patch.
- Resources are currently set only to granite. This will be revised based on building types.
- There will be a timer on changing your local currency.
- I am open to suggestions regarding the effects of upkeep.

As far as rates, until we get something new, I am opposed to anything more than nominal taxation. 10% of what's proposed in game at this time is manageable. Anything more and we need a damn good feature like increased radius, ability to raise and lower objects, 80% reduction of terraforming fatigue, something we can enjoy as a player.

[Aiden]

I would like to see upkeep affecting the size of a tribe. You just need to keep the cost low and perhaps only use this idea in a limited way for small tribes that are having a hard time expanding? You dont necessarily have to make huge tribes shrink for not paying immediately but over time is it such a bad idea to reduce the size of these inactive tribes? It might give them a reason to pop back in the game once a week to spend a couple hours playing the game.

It might sound nuts to a few people at first to have to pay a material upkeep for something they put their time and money into but to me it sound great because expanding the tribe seems impossible sometimes. A material upkeep for tribe size seems easier then trying to recruit lots of people to me. And it gives us something to do once per week.... nothing wrong with that!

I think of it like a business. A small business can still be successful and sometimes even require a lot of land space or just want to expand for new things. If we want storage spaces, gardens, open areas, building plots, trainging areas.. etc well it can be very hard when we have such small areas with little to no chance for expanding. I get ten times more free players join as I do sub accounts and neither type last for too long anymore.

As long as upkeep is kept manageable in 2-6 hours of play by 1 to 2 people at first (because this is average active players in a tribe) then it would be no problem. Also you could limit land growth by overstocking upkeep to perhaps 2.5 meters per 100 game days or something, and that way we can not grow so fast, just a little bit at a time and I think it could be good and fun for everyone.


Update: After trying it on the test server my only issue is with currency for tribal bonus. It wont get used often. Maybe instead use it for a bit of growth like I said and then if you dont pay for a period of 300 game days you lose your growth and go back to normal size. Had a few people in global that liked this idea.

I was hoping that this is what would be implemented honestly. Being a homesteader, I'd love having the option to pump some extra resources and upkeep in to expand my borders a bit. I don't necessarily need a huge area, but actively playing and using this system has to be more rewarding than just a few + stats.

I'd love to see a balancing of the necessary upkeeps, a buff idea like Dang's, and the option to expand your area a bit using the upkeep/resource system.

[Vargo]

So when the concept of upkeep was brought up a year ago, or more by now, It was a suggestion to do away with all the dead tribes... NOT a suggestion for ways to annoy active players.

With the current system you have for testing, there is no real reason to put forth any effort to gather the currency for the minimal buffs given. Especially considering they are on tribe land only. Now maybe stats will start to play more of a role when you craft again, but such is not the case atm. So the currency upkeep is just a waste of energy.

The resource upkeep, for me at least, is a non issue. For larger, inactive tribes, it could be quite annoying also. BUT this is why I prefer not to have large areas, devs often make these weird choices when something different was suggested.

If totem upkeep was used to expand your tribe area, I would certainly use it. Along with the other buff ideas that have been presented here.

TL;DR Current Upkeep System is pointless as is, and will be ignored until someone needs to build.

[Drevar]

Not sure if Test is on accelerated time or not, but my full upkeep ran out in 3-4 days rather than the supposed 11 listed in the initial post.