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  1. #1

    COMBAT suggestions

    Combat

    Issue:

    1. PvP in its current form is too complex for mouse & key synchronising at the speed the attacks are dealt. It just comes down to luck not skill. E.g if your parry is timed in the right direction to prevent a block.

    Suggestions:
    The attack function introduces a 4 directional aiming capability which is over complicated and not rewarding.
    The defend function introduces a 4 directional aiming capability, again over complicated, assumed same for parry and dodge.

    a) Remove the mouse move aiming method, its just a complication that detracts from char movement.
    b) Add automated targeting of hit boxes based on movement of character (forward, backward, left, right), or use one attack hit box & keep the animations as random.
    c) Slow down weapon strike speeds.
    d) Add automated dodge & parry & block for stat&skill based calculated response to opponent strikes.
    e) Add override function 'Alt' for prolonged blocking/parry.
    f) Remove mouse aiming for blocks & parry & dodge, replace with the same animations (automated) but with one defence hit box.

    Solution
    Simplify combat to two options: attack or defend. Use automation calculations from stats and skills. Keep animations. Reduce speed of attack action & remove 'chance' of success element on all actions. Simplify number of possible actions in both attack and defend.

    I write this as a veteran pvp'er of over 20 years gaming experience in the hope you consider the opinion, which may lead to a more attractive game for combat orientated individuals.
    I wish you all the best with your product, it has the potential to go far.

    Regards

    Chidar

    PS have you ever considered seeking sponsorship from your government with respect to the provision of educational material from the standpoint of responsible management of resources? I say this as your product teaches people about lifecycles and sustainment of ecology etc. A message the government 'green' campaigns are wanting to push out to the public. They may entertain your concept as innovative, and I am sure an 'education' friendly version could be scripted. With the right IPR it could baseline your wider business goals in the gaming sphere. Try, Dept. of Education, Environment, or Business Innovation.

  2. #2
    Few things about your post tells me you havn't done much of the combat in Xsyon.

    Like ALT already can override parry if you set it up that way.
    Another thing is that dodging hasn't been put into the game so it's not even a factor.

    I believe your suggestions remove skill not add it. Slowing down the attack speeds would help with the option to parry, but already you have most attacks are around 2s attack speeds per attack. That's pretty slow by most PVP games. Biggest issue is really just the desync and not all the other things you are talking about.

    Many of the things like "AUTOMATED" actions remove player skill greatly from the game where there is little to start with, and on top of that there is no special moves at all. So you remove all player skill and make it all based on toon attack with NO player choices at all?

    Can you tell me where the player skill would come into play in this combat suggestions you list? Or is there just none?


    P.S.
    Over 20 years exp in PVP? What games came out over 20 years go that would give you exp?
    Last edited by MrDDT; 11-27-2013 at 12:33 PM.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  3. #3
    MrDDT,

    I have played 1 week in combat in the game, and my thread is a suggestion to change it. It may be that I do know everything about it, however I come from the world of any suggestion that might improve things is worth mentioning.
    1. Yes I am aware that alt provides the parry function, I am suggesting to keep it as an overriding function of an attack move.
    2. if dodge was meant for the ctrl key that would explain why it didn't seem to make an effect. I will forgive myself having put 10 points into the skill for not realising it is absent from game.
    3. There is no player 'skill' element in this combat, it is luck to guess the attack of the enemy before it is executed, in the off chance you can provide a counter, owing to speed of combat.
    4. If the combat was skill based in practice more people would be playing it, despite the latency. I appreciate the concept provided aims for 'skill' based combat, but the bottom line is it doesn't and won't the way that it is set-up. If they want to appeal to a wider audience it may be a good idea to change it, end of suggestion. If this means simplify or change completely to attract more people then so be it, a robust revenue stream is the most important thing.
    5. Special moves could be an option, player choices a good idea.
    6. Automation will just make easier - agreed. More people play, game gets development funds.
    7. Player skill with proposed model, none bar parrying an attack with the alt key.
    8. To answer your asking what pvp I have done way back, lets just say I started on Sinclair spectrum & amiga playing 2 player games when the internet was in its infancy. Since then Darkfall (5 years), UO Feluccia (4 years), SWG, Lotro, Battlefield, DAoC, AoC, WoW, Arma, LoL, vanguard, and others.. in no particular order - which I am sure you will agree is a diverse range of combat styles.


    Looking forward to hearing your constructive opinion on improving the combat.

  4. #4
    I'm sorry, can you say again where the player skill comes into play? You said you want to widen it to a larger market, but even other games like WOW which is a HUGE market have player skill. Your system would have no player skill whatsoever, heck it looks like the best thing to do would be level up and stand next to the target spamming the keys and whoever has the better weapon/armor/skill would win. No skill on the player side what so ever.

    Combat in Xsyon can be improved in many many many ways, but I'm simply saying I don't see how your suggestions (outside of slowing down attack speed to allow for a chance to parry) would make the game better.

    Currently even with slowing down attack speeds, parry is NOT a valid option. It's a negative option in the current use of parry EVEN if you choose the correct 100% option to parry 99% of the time you would still be at a negative factor by the other 1% and even on the other 99%.


    Desync and lack of special attacks is the biggest issues I see. Another sorta combat related is healing options for HP/Energy, which there is very little.

    Yes I'm sure he could cut out some of the swing directions and parry directions, but because they have no real effect, it would not improve the game at all IMO. It would just simply remove animations from the game, which would not improve or worsen combat.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  5. #5
    7. Player skill with proposed model, none bar parrying an attack with the alt key.

    I am not proposing changes to provide player skill.

    Perhaps with your suggestion of adding 'choice' it might.

    The proposed model definitely needs expanding, if player skill is an objective.

    My first thought when writing was the pursuit of a more palatable and instantly engaging fight.
    When myself and friends started fighting - it was some unpredictable & chance was a major factor.

    PS im not trying to upset people, I am just trying to help.
    Last edited by Chidar; 11-27-2013 at 01:54 PM.

  6. #6
    So your advice is remove all player skill in combat?

    I would have to say that advice is not good for any game. As I said before even hugely popular games like WOW has player skill in PVP and combat.

    You give the reason for your change to "open up to broader market" yet. I disagree with that, as I've shown past history of gaming where they use player skill with success. You shown no reason to do this other than your 20+ years of PVP gaming exp which is in question.

    I do not believe this makes any sense to do this, as I said there are many other ways to improve combat, and somehow you found a way to worsen it.

    Suggestions:
    Fix desync.
    Add special skills.
    Make parry useful. (Like when you successfully parry an attack, the attacker loses 5x energy normally would for the attack)
    Add healing options.
    Add group play options like party screens/chat, skills that heal/buff/aid party members etc.
    Ranged attacks, even if you have to do it with melee, like a lunge.

    Removing all player skill from the game is the worst idea I can think of to change combat.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Chidar View Post
    The proposed model definitely needs expanding, if player skill is an objective.

    My first thought when writing was the pursuit of a more palatable and instantly engaging fight.
    When myself and friends started fighting - it was some unpredictable & chance was a major factor.

    PS im not trying to upset people, I am just trying to help.
    Responding to your edit.

    Currently there is no "chance" in combat at all.
    If you are in range, the target is in your swing arc, you hit 100% of the time. Parry can happen based on if the player correctly does a parry the direction you are attacking. So if you are attacking as an overhead attack, the parry person would have to parry overhead to parry 100%. More they are off from there (like parrying low) they take more damage.

    The only way I could see the possibly of chance coming into play is due to desync/lag where you might not be in range, or the target is not really in front of you due to this desync/lag.
    Then again, it's not really chance because either they are there or not, it's really not a random to hit roll or anything like that.

    Having played Darkfall myself I can't see how a player from that game and playing it as long as you have would even suggest removing all player skill to make the game better. There is not a lot going for the Xsyon combat system, and removing that would make it so there pretty much is no combat system at all.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  8. #8
    Simplifying the current model of multiple attack directions & defence directions, does not mean remove player skill.
    I agree with what your saying, as I wrote:
    'The proposed model definitely needs expanding, if player skill is an objective.'

    It is a proposed 'model' to start with, if it needs addition then great.

    I fail to see why you are attempting on each occasion of writing to make this thread a personal insult to me and try and discredit my view based on my pvp gaming experience
    this...'Over 20 years exp in PVP? What games came out over 20 years go that would give you exp?'
    and this...'You shown no reason to do this other than your 20+ years of PVP gaming exp which is in question.'
    ...have no relevance in this thread. The facts are: I came, I paid, I played, I thought some suggestion to the devs might help. Which I believe is correct to do in this section of the forum, 'Developer Zone'. However you don't seem to like it much, so perhaps I like countless others should just leave.
    Last edited by Chidar; 11-27-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Chidar View Post
    Simplifying the current model of multiple attack directions & defence directions, does not mean remove player skill.
    I agree with what your saying, as I wrote:
    'The proposed model definitely needs expanding, if player skill is an objective.'

    It is a proposed 'model' to start with, if it needs addition then great.

    I fail to see why you are attempting on each occasion of writing to make this thread a personal insult to me.
    this...'Over 20 years exp in PVP? What games came out over 20 years go that would give you exp?'
    and this...'You shown no reason to do this other than your 20+ years of PVP gaming exp which is in question.'
    ...have no relevance in this thread. The facts are: I came, I paid, I played, I thought some suggestion to the devs might help. Which I believe is correct to do in this section of the forum, 'Developer Zone'. However you don't seem to like it much, so perhaps I like countless others should just FO.
    It doesn't always remove player skill, however, in this case it would.

    You saying you agree yet still hold that removing current little skill would help the game.

    The "model" you want to start with, I've tried to explain is in my opinion worse. Which also in my opinion is hard to do, being that combat is so poorly done already, due to the lack of much of a combat system.

    Your 20+ years is something you put into your first point, it's not a personal attack to question it, is it? I do not agree with the statements you make so, that makes them personal attacks?

    You also trying to make statements as if they are fact. Like "If they want to appeal to a wider audience it may be a good idea to change it, end of suggestion."
    Here you are stating something as if it's well known or a fact. Offering nothing to back it up, or why.
    MrDDT



    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    -Sun-tzu


  10. #10
    wow

    look...

    "You shown no reason to do this other than your 20+ years of PVP gaming exp which is in question."

    that is a personal remark.

    and this...

    "If they want to appeal to a wider audience it may be a good idea to change it, end of suggestion."

    ...means maybe, possibly, or could, which does not indicate fact.
    If I used: should or has to, these would indicate fact.

    I think we are done in this thread now.

    PS I do not want toe to toe button mashing either, but sometimes one has to go back a step before you can go forwards a few more.

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