View Full Version : 05/16/2020 - Feedback Request - Creatures & Combat

05-16-2020, 10:19 PM
The Test Server is ready for what is hopefully the final round of testing and tweaking of the upcoming big creature and combat patch.

All that is left to do is to balance variables and I think this patch will be ready to go! Of course, if any issues are uncovered, I’ll fix those first.

First please review my previous post (https://www.xsyon.com/showthread.php/10209-03-24-2020-Feedback-Request-Creatures-amp-Combat).

Note: If you would like to test with the help of Guide who can spawn and adjust creature to test combat and AI against, please open a help ticket and let us know when you plan to be around.

Here are some specific changes that need final testing:

- Dead bodies should take 8 minutes to decay and disappear. This has been increased from 4 minutes and should give a bit more time for players to harvest creatures that die from old age. (I may increase this further for creatures that die naturally and not in combat)

- Maximum age ‘legendary’ creatures can be given a name. If you are the first player to encounter a legendary creature you can name it and the name will stay. The name will also be announced in global chat.

- A successful parry now stuns your opponent for 1 -2 seconds based on your parrying skill. Does this seem ok? Is the stun duration too short or too long?

- Being stunned by a parry displays a buff during the stun time.

- The parry skill now uses agility and dexterity (as requested).

- Weapons apply different threat levels to creatures during combat, with blades applying the least threat and the larger picks and shovels applying the most threat. This should allow a player with a big weapon to tank while in a group fighting a large creature or mutant.

- The dodge skill has been reintroduced to be useful. Dodge now can increase your side step and backwards movement speed while in combat. Full dodge skill should allow you to move at full speed in those directions while fighting.

- You should be able to maneuver to cause your opposing creature to completely or partially miss their attack. Partially missed attacks from side stepping simply reduce the damage taken.

- Your dodge skill increases when a creature either partially or fully misses their attack.

- Creatures spin at a slower rate during combat so that you can potentially dodge them with side steps.

- Bears are set with the potential for a ‘special attack’. You will see the bear stand up and roar if this is triggered. This special attack, if fully implemented, will do double damage but is easier to avoid. Is this desirable? Is this too easy to avoid? If this is something players like I can finish it and set it up properly for all creatures.

Here are some general combat goals that I hope this patch achieves:

- Small creatures should be easy to kill, even for new players.

- Large regular creatures should be difficult but manageable to kill.

- Old age and legendary mutants should be difficult and require a group of veteran players to kill.

- All creatures that you attack should fight back. (If not let me know what specific creature did not attack back).

- As creatures take damage there is a chance they will run. There is a greater chance for small and weak creatures to do so.

- You should be able to turn and sprint away from a creature easily.

- It should be difficult or impossible to simply turn and run away at your normal pace.

- It should be impossible to simply back up to avoid attacks.

Variables likely need to be adjusted for all of this. Please provide feedback on creatures that seem too easy or difficult based on these goals.

If any of the above is not working as intended or seems unusual or undesirable, please let me know.

Here are variables I can easily adjust:

- Creature hit points
- Creature attack ranges
- Creature attack rates (time between attacks)
- Creature base damage
- Creature rotation speed during combat
- Player weapons base damage
- Player weapon ranges
- Player weapon speeds (delay between attacks)
- Duration of stun effects
- Creature aggro and reactions. Do any creature reactions seem off?

I have not adjusted these much yet as I would like feedback on all types of creatures. Please let me know if a creature seems too easy or too difficult based on my general goals or if you think any of the variables need adjustment for a specific creature or weapon type.

All of this has tested well for me, but as this type of twitch combat is highly dependent on your location and latency I would like feedback on the functionality to see if I need to adjust speeds or ranges to make sure this all works as well as possible for all players.

I will not adding any more features to this patch. My goal is to ensure these features and changes are working well and that variables are balanced enough for a public patch. Variable balance can continue after the public patches if needed.


05-17-2020, 05:36 AM
Wyry findings so far:

My combat skill is 35.73 with picks.
I attacked and killed a lesser raccoon and dissected it, then went a few steps away. Suddenly I was attacked by an animal which I nearly could not see because it was so small: an 8 hp rookie pine marten buck. Several small animals then attacked also as soon as I got close to them, even hamsters, cats and a 6 hp lesser hen without being attacked first.

I logged in with my second toon, combat skill is 25.08 with picks. Without using any weapon I approached the 6 hp hen and its aggro increased to nearly 100 so it attacked me, too. Question: Why do small creatures attack quicker on simple approach than bigger animals?

With that second toon, I saw a bear half inside and half outside of a wall. When I approached, the bear came through the wall and killed me (male black bear cub with about 140 hp)
After reviving, I went back to that wall (war server, zone 863, x206 z814, where I knew that another bear was outside of the wall. When I approached the wall, he also came in (elder greater black bear sow). After a while, on the opposite wall of the tribe, both bears stood looking outside. When I approached the bear sow, it started (as expected) attacking me, when I went on a boulder the bear lost interest and went back to the wall. He walked a bit along the wall, then suddenly was outside and stuck in a boulder (zone 863, x585 z827)

When I tried to use the scrapper fortress gates in the east and west walls in this tribe (I am member) I could open them but was unable to walk through them. I saw however walking a mutant squirrel through the closed(!!) gate as if it was open.

I could open and walk through a scrapper fortress gate in the south wall without problem. But this one seems to be the only one which works normal. What is the difference between that gate in the south wall and the other gates?

I re-checked with the gates on the current PVP server and there they work as expected, so it must be a problem of the copy on the test server.

.... hmmm, I cannot post attachments, so I will send the text with screenshots via ticket system ... :)

05-17-2020, 02:41 PM
I patched a fix for the collision issue through gates. Basically what was happening is that I increased the player's collision box to solve the issue of players being able to see through walls in 1st person view combat mode. I had increased it a bit too much.

If you find any gates that are still a problem, please post a location for me to check.


05-17-2020, 02:41 PM
I will adjust creature aggression variables and will post when they've been adjusted.


05-17-2020, 04:19 PM
I tested being able to see through walls again and I was unable to reproduce being able to stick my head through a wall anymore on the test server by using hiding or running into walls.

I'm not sure this matters, you can still do it by swimming into a wall, however, this is such a rare situation that I'm not sure it needs to be addressed.

My main question about this tho is if unit collision is attached to the player hitbox? Like will this make people easier to hit with weapons? Or will it make people harder to hit with lower range weapons like knives due to not being able to get as close?

I'll do more testing later when I have more time.

05-17-2020, 05:40 PM
fought a adolesent lesser coyte bitch and I was able to suscessfully walk backwards and dodge hits the same way as previously.

Do the coyotes still run out of energy? Do they have run/walk still? Could that be it?

05-17-2020, 09:33 PM
I've restarted the Test Server.

Regarding issues so far:

1) Small creatures initiating attacks. I believe that was happening due to a mechanism forcing creatures to fight if they can't find a direct path to run away from you. I've fixed that so that only more aggressive creatures have this behavior.

If any small and non aggressive creatures still attack without first being attacked, please let me know.

2) Creatures getting stuck on a wall or boulder. I need to reproduce this to fix it so I'm still working on this one.

3) Not being able to pass through gates. This should be fixed now.

4) "is unit collision is attached to the player hitbox?" No, I adjusted the collision for the player vs buildings only. It shouldn't affect your hitbox for combat.

5) Being able to walk backwards to avoid attacks. I will work on tweaking this tonight. It's because of the dodge skill changes that I implemented. What is your dodge skill currently at?

That's all so far. Primarily I adjusted creature reactions as notes in #1 above.


05-17-2020, 10:48 PM
I have 5 dodging, have not invested anything into it yet.

I DO have 99+ running tho so that could possibly be the problem... but someone with 99+ running may not be the best person to balance to game towards for most of the smaller animals... should be balanced towards 25-50 for lower running/newer players, while things like elder creatures and big mutants should for sure be balanced for a 99 run.

I mean, I should be able to dodge a marmot easier than a bear with 99 running.

05-18-2020, 06:16 AM
Tested with Checker_Magga
Running Skill: 14.95
Combat Skill: 25.20

1) Small animals now ran away when I went close to them. So now they act as intended.

2) A Mule Deer in zone 863, x510 z714 was able to attack me through a limestone wall. Maybe you could reproduce it if you check these coordinates?

Some of the animal names confused me a bit:
Adult Veteran Male Golden Retriever Pup (84 hp) => adult, veteran, but still a pup?
Senior Greater Female Mule Deer Fawn => senior greater fawn?
Elder Veteran Male Pine Marten Kit => veteran kit?
Young Adult Lesser Pullet (8 hp) => adult pullet?

I approached an Adult Lesser Rottweiler Bitch (69 hp), it turned towards me, then went close to me but did nothing else. I walked away, it still followed me very close (Reaction: Go To Target) and while we walked a bit more the reaction "go to target" kept unchanged all the time, but the aggro increased slowly until it was very high and the Rottweiler started attacking. Is this behaviour as intended?

05-18-2020, 06:18 AM
Please check the fortress gate at zone 863, x191 z729, it still refuses to let me through.

Please check also the fortress gate at zone 863, x678 z680, it blocks me when I want to pass not exactly in the middle of the gate but a bit closer to the door parts (all other fortress gates let me pass even close to the door parts).

05-19-2020, 02:21 PM
I've restarted the Test Server with another small patch. Here are a few things to check:

1) Fortress gates (or any other gates). I adjusted collision further and all gates looked ok to me. If you can find a gate that can't e entered, please let me know and post the coordinates here.

2) Names. The weird 'adult pup' type of names were caused by me not resetting data that needed to be reset. I cleared this up. If any creatures still have inconsistent names, please let me know.

3) Backing up. I adjusted speeds a bit. If any of you can still back up walking and avoid being hit, please let me know the following info: your speed (now in the upper left corner), the creature type and the creature's speed (should show in the debug info when the creature is selected).

Setting up creatures so that you can't just walk back out of range but still use dodge side to side to avoid or reduce attacks is tricky as it's time and ping dependent so I'm trying to adjust the balance.

Sounds like so far the issues are minor. This patch is very close to finally going public!


05-20-2020, 03:36 AM
1) All Fortress gates which I tested today were ok ... but found out that some tents make problems.

Parts of the tests were done on Founders Isle because I could not find enough tents/doors outside of it, but even on Founders Isle I could not find all available tents for testing purpose.
If someone has more toons on PVP server, or an architecture toon able to craft all tents/gates, maybe he/she can do some tests with taller/smaller chars?? Checker_Maggas Height is 200 cm.

Gates / Tents which blocked me:
Banaya Cloth Tent, I can neither go inside nor climb upon it (both possible on normal server)
Bamati Seer Teepee, can no longer climb upon it
Bamati Sheet Teepee, can no longer climb upon it
Banaya Tarp Tent, I can neither go inside nor climb upon it
Pioneer Log Gates block me completely

2) Animal names:
Senior Greater Male Mule Deer Fawn
Senior Veteran Male Mule Deer Fawn
Adult Greater Male Mule Deer Fawn
Adolescent Veteran Female Golden Retriever Pup (this name is longer than the field in which it is displayed)
Adult Greater Male Raccoon Cub
Adolescent Veteran Male Marmot Pup
Elder Greater Male Douglas Squirrel Pup
Senior Greater Female American Shorthair Kitten (this name is longer than the field in which it is displayed)

05-20-2020, 03:41 AM
Attacking/moving through walls:
zone 863, x510 z722, Senior Veteran Male Mule Deer Fawn (several of these mule deers went through the walls)


05-20-2020, 03:44 AM
Saw a revenant still climbing up a steep wall, much slower than on normal server, but still on a slope which is unclimbable for normal toons.


05-20-2020, 07:19 AM
Could you post a general location where you can see these animals with incorrect names?

About animals going through walls, are they able to completely go through walls or just stick their heads / bodies through like in the screenshot above?

The revs climbing a steep slope is intentional. Slopes aren't blocking creatures right now, just slowing them down. (Blocking them completely could end up causing them to be trapped in a lot of areas which was a problem we had originally)


05-20-2020, 02:00 PM
I was not able to get into a Scrapper Smokehouse. Not that you can get very far into one.

There was a short stutter passing through mason heavy gates. Less than a second.

Saw a ringtailed squirrel go through my wall at 781:142:542. This is where the stream from my fishing hole goes under my wall so logically I guess he could have swam under the wall. He turned blue just before going through/under the wall.

Was killed by a bear while swimming away. Previously a high swimming skill was a sure escape. Do different sized animals have different swimming speeds now?

05-20-2020, 11:43 PM
Could you post a general location where you can see these animals with incorrect names?

About animals going through walls, are they able to completely go through walls or just stick their heads / bodies through like in the screenshot above?

The revs climbing a steep slope is intentional. Slopes aren't blocking creatures right now, just slowing them down. (Blocking them completely could end up causing them to be trapped in a lot of areas which was a problem we had originally)


Thank you for the information about the steep slopes, helps much for understanding.

The animals with the incorrect names were in zones 863, 861, 902, 979 (coordinates please see screenshots). Is it possible that my PC did not update the game files correctly although I use the normal Xsyon Launcher?

The one animal that attacked (see the one of my three screenshot in the previous posts) seemed to only put his head out of the wall, when I went some steps away it did not follow me but attacked again when I got closer.

The animals going through walls were in zone 863 on a large tribe land, even some of the animals with incorrect names can be found there. They were not stuck in the wall but completely went through (I just was not quick enough using the screenshot button). The one of which I made 2 screenshots in my previous post ran out of the pen, then fully back inside without being stuck in the walls.

I have the impression that when they try to flee and run a bit along a wall, they are then suddenly on the other side of the wall. The screenshots in the pictures of my previous posts show the coordinates in the debug info. Could it be that the status "Run away" has some issue with the starting point of the run, not checking for collisions at this point or something like that?

05-21-2020, 02:15 AM
I restarted the Test Server with the another build. Here are some changes and comments:

1) Animal names. Let's check this one more time. ;-) I found some data that still needed to be updated. I think it should all be correct now.

2) Collision problems. I reverted my collision changes. Adjusting collision so that players can't pop their heads through walls in 1st person combat mode can't be easily solved right now. The rational solution (increasing the player's collision box) causes too many conflicts with architecture parts that were designed for the original collision box size.

3) Swimming speed. This hasn't changed. Are you 'sprinting' away while swimming? What is your speed (seen in the top left corner).

4) Creatures going through walls. What you described sounds like the creature went through the wall and back again. I saw this happen due to changes I made with how the creature rotates along a path. I've adjusted the rotation. Let me know if you still see this happening.

5) Creatures attacking through walls. I need to find a solution for this. Ideally creatures should lose interest in you if you are blocked by a wall. It's tricky at the moment when a creature already has you as a target. Anyways, I'll work on this.


05-21-2020, 06:44 AM
I restarted the Test Server with the another build. Here are some changes and comments:

1) Animal names. Let's check this one more time. ;-) I found some data that still needed to be updated. I think it should all be correct now.

4) Creatures going through walls. What you described sounds like the creature went through the wall and back again. I saw this happen due to changes I made with how the creature rotates along a path. I've adjusted the rotation. Let me know if you still see this happening.


1) Animal names are logical now. Thanks for correction :)

4) Raccoon went in a bow through the wall, then back, but it was too quick so I could not make a screenshot. It was the same raccoon which attacked Voice_of_NaGut in one of the images included at the attack animation strange thing listed below.

Mule Deer / Raccoon / Douglas Squirrel: Attack Animation is missing, they attack while seemingly just standing and watching me BUT only when they attack Voice_of_NaGut! Normal animation with Checker_Magga! What could be the reason for this? Which infos do you need to reproduce it?

05-21-2020, 06:52 AM
This Mule deer was stuck in boulder, reaction went from ignore - run away - attack - watch without the deer doing any of these reactions. Even when Checker_Magga attacked the deer, it made no difference.


05-21-2020, 06:56 AM
Please check this revenant, it VERY quickly (less than a second) changes the reaction and turns several times, but slowly gets towards Checker_Magga. Other revs there had similar behaviours.

05-21-2020, 06:58 AM
An adult cat has the size of a kitten, a kitten has the size of an adult cat. Is this a feature for pet/taming or is it an inconsistency?

05-21-2020, 07:03 AM
Maybe the following screenshots might help with the tricky part of 5) ???
5) A deer which is NOT stuck keeps also being on attack for a long while.
5) A deer stuck in a wall keeps aggro 100 but reaction runaway, while both chars are sleeping on a boulder. Is this a reasonable combination (tricky problem, I know)?


05-24-2020, 01:45 AM
I've restarted the Test Server with another build. Here are some changes and questions:

1) Incorrect names, animal types and animations not playing: In these builds I am running a function that resets creatures so that there are creatures of different ages and more child creatures. The function was causing all these glitches so I've revised it and all these problems should be gone now. (If there are still any names that don't match what you see though, let me know).

2) I've further revised the behavior of creatures that have a target that becomes blocked or unreachable. Here is what should happen:

- If you get up on a boulder or ramp, creatures in combat should run away from you. They can still keep you as a target but will only watch from a distance or move away out of target range.

- If a creature can't reach you because of walls but you are on the ground, the creature should not target you.

3) I've adjusted the speed creatures rotate along their paths, to avoid them going in and out of a wall while following a path.

4) I've adjusted the timing on creature attacks as some of them were off.

5) Question: Can you reproduce the situation of a creature getting stuck on a wall or boulder? If this can happen, does it happen only while the animal has a target?

Overall, I feel this build is ready enough for a big public patch! I'll wait to see if there are any other reproducible issues or balancing that needs to be done.


05-24-2020, 04:45 AM
I agree that this build is ready for a public patch, because what I found today are really minor issues. However, I am curious how many issues just because of the variety of playing focusses will pop up.
Very well done from my point of view. :D

Test area is now copied from PVE, but after death still the green bar appears like on PVP server.

I attacked a cat, later a dog, and both got reaction "attack" but stood there without attacking. Maybe I was too close with my first attack because only when I went back they started to attack.

05-24-2020, 04:46 AM
One observation: When walking backwards away from a rat, it had exactly the same speed like Magga. Magga has a running speed of 98.87, and when her speed went down, the rat slowed down to the same value.

05-24-2020, 04:47 AM
A rooster and a pine marten were stuck in a rock, it did not make a difference whether they had Magga as target or have no target at all. As there is a rock which is partly above the ground, maybe I found the only spot in the world where they still can get stuck?

05-24-2020, 04:48 AM
On the current server, animals can walk through each other, so this is not really new. It just looked weird when two rottweilers approached Magga, and when Magga went back towards the boulder they were exactly at the same location ... from close view their open mouths looked funny :D

05-25-2020, 01:00 AM
I'm restarting the Test Server with a few minor changes:

1) I fixed a situation that could cause near creatures to not attack you if they were not facing you. This was due to the new rotation that I set up so that players could avoid creatures by sidestep dodging.

2) I set up an extra check when players close a gate on a creature that already is following a path to the player.

3) I adjusted creatures' rotation along their path as sometimes the slow rotation can cause them to go in and out of a wall or object.

That's it. Just minor adjustments. This patch will go live June 1st and I will post a more prominent announcement about it.

Comments on other issues mentioned:

1) For the creatures stuck under that big boulder, did you see them get stuck or did you find them that way?

2) I always run a War Server build for testing even if we are testing with Peace Server data. This is because the War Server has a few more 'features' basically and I like to make sure everything is tested.

3) Creatures following that are right up against you will stay at your speed, up to their maximum speed. The situation where you are walking backwards and a creature keeps following at your pace is correct.

4) Creatures going through each other and possibly stacking up is weird but that's how it will be for now. It does happen in other games I've checked out. It can be solved somewhat but can cause other issues so for now I'll leave it be.


05-25-2020, 01:21 AM
Been busy working but I got thinking a bit more about this parry change.

Atm you can just hold parry and angle it in the right direction and it'll do the hit recovery, and while this is as intended, if you continue to hold it up, it'll keep doing the hit recovery, this should NOT be as intended.

Its parry, meaning that the concept is you need to hit the hit, not hold it up like a shield.

Currently it functions like a shield with a hit recovery, since you can hold it up.

The proposed change to fix this would be to make it so the parry cannot do the hit recovery action beyond being held up for say 2-3 sec. This could be a good "base point" to start for balancing.

This change would make parry feel like parry, you need to quickly throw it up in the right direction for it to work properly for the hit recovery as the reward if you do it properly..... holding it up and pointing it in the right direction feels like a reward regardless of doing it properly or not cuz you can just hold it in the right direction.

Could have dmg reduction lower over time as you hold parry up as well, this would feel great since if you quickly throw your parry up, you would get the longest hit recovery and dmg reduction, while if you held it up for 5 sec then walked into a hit, it wouldn't hit recovery or reduce as much damage...

This could be the difference between "parry" and "block"

"parry skill" could be exclusively when you quickly parry a hit within 2-3 sec, gaining a hit recovery and bonus dmg reduction.

"block skill" could be exclusively when you hold parry up past 3-5 sec, losing the hit recovery and losing the bonus dmg reduction.

I think this is the best way you could handle the parry and block issue, with this, you could still release shields in the future and the shield parry would make sense still so you wouldn't have to change anything in combat, only add shields n do graphics.

05-25-2020, 01:30 AM
The logic behind this is that parry is effectively deflecting a hit so you take no damage, while blocking a hit your still taking the blunt damage at the very least cuz your blocking instead of deflecting with parry.

05-25-2020, 01:33 AM
I like the successful parry pop up too letting you know you did it properly, I get thats most likely just there for test server confirmation..... but I think some kind of pop up like that could be good, maybe the same system message that you get when you brake a tool?

My pve guy cant fight bears so I'll let you know about that after release so I can test with my pvp guy, I like the sounds of a 2nd attack tho.

05-25-2020, 11:18 PM
Comments on other issues mentioned:

1) For the creatures stuck under that big boulder, did you see them get stuck or did you find them that way?


I think I found them that way, but to be honest my focus was on the dogs so I am only 99 percent sure.

Thank you very much for the additional info and I am very excited to get the new version soon :D All my thumps up for your work!

05-26-2020, 03:10 AM
I realized that I had forgotten to test those dark grey cave-like boulders and did that today. It was nice, a coyote went away when I was on the cave but attacked me when I was in the cave (which is fully ok).

And then I saw something ... PLEASE can I have one when the big update is done? Please :D

05-26-2020, 11:09 AM
A few comments:

1) Regarding changes to parry. I will see what I can do for a future patch. Systems can always be adjusted and improved. This patch will go out next week and the proposed changes may sound simple but they are not given the current code. It may be best to post those in the Suggestion section as that's where I look first to grab requested features to implement.

2) For test sessions I've been switching between data from the Peace and War Servers. I will continue to do so. (With the most recent tests I had the War Server data up for a long while until I needed to load the Peace Server data for some specific tests).

3) I turned off the 'special attack' that I had set up with the bears. That can be for a future patch. When I turn that back on during another test session I will let you all know. It was a neat potential feature but will require a lot of work to fully implement it for all creatures if you all like it.

I will post when I am ready for the next test session that will focus on Pets.

This patch is ready for now and will go out June 1st! Thanks for all the feedback!

06-01-2020, 08:13 AM
Just giving my feedback on this dodging combat. I'm sorry to say I do not like it. I was excited about it just reading, however, after testing it today. I can say it is not good.
To fight mobs using this system you pretty much are going to get very dizzy.
You spinning around the mobs over and over to avoid being hit and training up dodging. Also trying to get back attacks. This makes it so you are looking top down at the fight and it's very dizzy feeling. Doesn't really add much to the combat.

I highly suggest changing it. Maybe even do something simple like simply dodge is a calc of hit or miss from the monster attacking you in range or something. It was a good idea but there is no real way to sidestep without spinning around the mob.

Not sure what to think about parry, its good and strong. But it is a little lack luster. The fights I've tested this with are simply this.
Hold Parry for 1 to 2 seconds, mob attacks you. If it hits your parry, you attack it back as it is stunned. Then hold parry until it attacks again.
If the mob is not attacking you and attacking someone else or running from you, you simply follow and attack it. I predict this will be a highly used system even more so than the dodge.

This is my feedback. I hope it helps.

06-01-2020, 09:34 PM
Thanks very much!

I will start a new combat specific thread and we can continue the discussion there. For now I am closing this thread as the public patch has gone out. I will copy some of the current suggestions to that start of the new conversation in that thread.

I appreciate all the feedback!