PDA

View Full Version : 06/11/2020 - Feedback Requests - Combat



Xsyon
06-11-2020, 11:22 AM
This thread is for discussing current combat improvement suggestions.

Here is what I have so far from the other threads:

1) Adjust swing power. I did this already and could up the damage a bit more. However, the more I boost swing power damage, the more combat relies on charged attacks and again we get the problem that new players (and a lot of player in general) just are looking to click attack as they do in games they are familiar with.

2) Remove swing power / charged attacks.

3) Replace swing power attacks with special attacks from the action bar / hot key. These could be, for example, a slower attack that does double damage.

From my point of view, the charged attack vs the hot key power attack are very similar. The main differences would be how the action is initiated (through mouse action vs a key) and timing (charged attacks can be done at any time, a power attack should have a cool down like in other games).

Here are things that I have worked on and plan to release as part of this patch series:

1) Artisan and Master weapons including bonuses based on specific weapon types such as critical strike and defense (parry) bonuses.

2) Ranged combat.

As usual, if you have a suggestion that is similar to something in another game, please list the game or games so that I can potentially check it out directly.

Note: If I missed anything, please post and I will add it to this top post.

Note: Please keep suggestions as concise as possible and the arguments to a minimum. It's taking me a long time to go through these threads (and suggestions) to pick out the actual suggestions.

Thanks!

Static
06-11-2020, 01:19 PM
I agree with moving away from combat being about charged attacks, if you add too much damage to them, they become the only option.

It also removes the "intense fight" that has been created with quick attack+parry combination and would turn it back into poke style where you try to avoid damage till your charge is full, than release, same as before but most likely abusing the creature turning speed this time instead of the walking backwards like previously.

I think the combat of having to parry or block, while counter attacking with a fast attack OR taking the risk of using a slow swinging power attack, is the best way to keep loading bars out of combat.

When I say power attack, I mean a attack that takes twice as long to do the animation, not charge up. So the time from start of swing to end of swing takes twice as long as a regular attack, this would make it so that theres was a larger dodge window, so if you actually hit the slower attack than it would warrant the boost in attack, the reward to the risk.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think if we're making artisan and master weapons they should have the same damage ratio as normal weapons, but add additional effects. I think if they also do additional damage than they would quickly become unbalanced and become the only usable weapons, making lower end players or new players at a massive disadvantage.

And wow, we are seriously talking about ranged combat right now? Color me completely stoked, I'd love to see some bows in the game, however, without some kind of dodge skills or way to leap or relocate your character, you won't be able to actually point at anything and shoot it alone without it killing you in the process.

We would need some kind of back quiver and bow slot and a button to switch between melee and ranged weapon sets.

Keep up the great work man, I'm going to go fight some things on test server to give you some more in depth feedback of the current changes.

MrDDT
06-11-2020, 01:43 PM
This thread is for discussing current combat improvement suggestions.

Here is what I have so far from the other threads:

1) Adjust swing power. I did this already and could up the damage a bit more. However, the more I boost swing power damage, the more combat relies on charged attacks and again we get the problem that new players (and a lot of player in general) just are looking to click attack as they do in games they are familiar with.


2) Remove swing power / charged attacks.


3) Replace swing power attacks with special attacks from the action bar / hot key. These could be, for example, a slower attack that does double damage.

From my point of view, the charged attack vs the hot key power attack are very similar. The main differences would be how the action is initiated (through mouse action vs a key) and timing (charged attacks can be done at any time, a power attack should have a cool down like in other games).

I think like Static says, lets remove them. Add in special attacks. Special attacks to me are like:
"Power Attack" = +50% damage, cooldown 5s, uses 3x energy of a normal swing.
"Snare Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 30s, uses 5x energy of a normal swing. Gives debuff of -20% movement speed for 10s.
"Lunge Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 5s, uses 3x energy of a normal swing. +100% reach of attack.
"Bleed Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 15s, uses 5x energy of normal swing. +100% damage of the attack over 10s.
"Stunning Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 30s, uses 5x energy of normal swing. Gives debuff of stunned for 2s.

These are examples. You would be able to bind them to a hotbar/keyboard. You click the button and the next attack would add that stat/cost/effect to the attack.
You can even make it limited to some weapons over another. Like a Pick and Blade can do a bleed attack. Shovels/Axes/Clubs can do Stunning attacks. All weapons can do Power attack etc.



Here are things that I have worked on and plan to release as part of this patch series:

1) Artisan and Master weapons including bonuses based on specific weapon types such as critical strike and defense (parry) bonuses.

2) Ranged combat.

As usual, if you have a suggestion that is similar to something in another game, please list the game or games so that I can potentially check it out directly.

Note: If I missed anything, please post and I will add it to this top post.

Note: Please keep suggestions as concise as possible and the arguments to a minimum. It's taking me a long time to go through these threads (and suggestions) to pick out the actual suggestions.

Thanks!


Again as Static says, I do not feel like base damage on master/artisan should be increased. This would make balancing much harder.
As you stated here, I think adding properties that help combat would be better. Attack speed, reach, criticals, defenses, are all good options.

Ranged Combat is going to be major. Due to the fact that no animal in game has ranged skills/attacks, this will have to be fairly weak to start with I would expect.
Because this game doesn't have first person targeting options really. I think the best thing to do is simply make ranged combat pretty weak. Allow parry and dodge and blocking (if shields added) to be highly effective vs it. You would not be able to manually dodge attacks. (Sadly I don't see how you could not have it that way without first person, which I can not stress enough is not good for this game please do not force first person for people wanting to do archery)

Unlike Static I do not believe it's required to have a quiver slot, or a hot key to insta swap between weapons. This is not a fast first person shooter where you jump in the air whip out a bow, change to melee before you land and keep fighting.
Combat can be fun without the extra speed of pulling out weapons super fast to change them for exact needs of the second.
I think you can have arrows in your bags or bin, or make a new slot and it will all work. Yes the best would be a cool looking arrow slot. But its not "needed" per say.

Static
06-11-2020, 01:56 PM
lets remove them. Add in special attacks. Special attacks to me are like:
"Power Attack" = +50% damage, cooldown 5s, uses 3x energy of a normal swing.
"Snare Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 30s, uses 5x energy of a normal swing. Gives debuff of -20% movement speed for 10s.
"Lunge Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 5s, uses 3x energy of a normal swing. +100% reach of attack.
"Bleed Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 15s, uses 5x energy of normal swing. +100% damage of the attack over 10s.
"Stunning Attack" = Normal Damage, cooldown 30s, uses 5x energy of normal swing. Gives debuff of stunned for 2s.

These are examples. You would be able to bind them to a hotbar/keyboard. You click the button and the next attack would add that stat/cost/effect to the attack.
You can even make it limited to some weapons over another. Like a Pick and Blade can do a bleed attack. Shovels/Axes/Clubs can do Stunning attacks. All weapons can do Power attack etc.

This game already exists, its called WoW, maybe you'd enjoy playing that instead of turning this game into it?

I disagree massively with this entire concept, I think it would remove the skill from the game and turn it into skill burst combat, that is really really shitty.

You ever play league of legends? Do you know what a burst hero is? Its someone who waits for their cooldowns to refresh, then walks up to someone, unloads all their skills than plays safe again till their skills are back up again. Annie for example is known for this cuz if you stack her skills you get a stun on her next skill, letting you easily combo all your skilled on the stunned person.

I don't want every person in this game to be a burst champion, I think thats horrid and removes any skill aspect from pvp, makes it become purely who can burst skill with higher stats.

I understand why DDT wants this, he would be a god and nobody could stand verse him, I think this is a horrid way to design a game.

I think it should be skill based so that if someone actually fights him they would have a fair chance instead of losing purely cuz of lower stats.

DDT's suggestions are a large step in the wrong direction, his suggestion is what MMO's used to be like a decade or longer ago, why bring us back into the past of gaming that everybody has evolved away from and expects better than?

Its a old and outdated concept to make skill spam number bar for combat.

It would be NEW AND INNOVATIVE if we continued to support the multi-directional twitch combat that everybody who actually plays pvp games loves as a unquie thing in this game that COULD be amazing if properly optimized.

I know of ONE other game that has been able to pull off twitch combat like this properly, kingdom come deliverance, it is by far, one of the best games out there when it comes to combat and xsyon is like a lower graphics version of it.. So it really makes me want to see things skill based, since in kingdom come deliverance, at the VERY START OF THE GAME your town gets raided and burned, your supposed to flee and run cuz they have armor (while you have none) and have way stronger swords than you, stronger stats, everything, its a unfair fight... However, a large majority of good players on their 2nd time around they fight the first guy and due to the skill, they are able to kill him with inferior equipment and stats purely due to out skilling them... I've watched a guy who was "extremely skilled" than take that equipment and slaughter all the guys coming to raid the city trying to work verse the story that says the city should be burned by them when you retreat.... The guy killed dozens of them due to having crazy good skill level.... That is amazing and should be the goal of every pvp based game that aims to be balanced.

No game was ever balanced by letting the guys with highest stats instant kill everybody else, but thats your suggestion, give additional damage in burst to people with already way higher damage than everybody else, its bad suggestion imo.

Static
06-11-2020, 02:00 PM
I think combat should be balanced to give the weakest person the largest chance, not give the strongest people a even bigger advantage.

Parry changes support this mentality by giving the defender the ability to hit recover the attacker to slow them down or give you a chance to make a action.

We shouldn't be making it easier for super strong aggressive people to kill weak people, we should be making it easier for weaker people to defend themselves from much stronger people, maybe not win, but being able to defend themselves or even hold them off if they had enough skill would be huge.

Static
06-11-2020, 02:09 PM
Unlike Static I do not believe it's required to have a quiver slot, or a hot key to insta swap between weapons. This is not a fast first person shooter where you jump in the air whip out a bow, change to melee before you land and keep fighting.
Combat can be fun without the extra speed of pulling out weapons super fast to change them for exact needs of the second.
I think you can have arrows in your bags or bin, or make a new slot and it will all work. Yes the best would be a cool looking arrow slot. But its not "needed" per say.

Some kind of weapon swapping button IS 100% required if your going to have a ranged weapon.

The bullshit line about it "not being a first person shooter" is not addressing this core issue, theres no time in combat to open your inv and manually swap weapons.

"extra speed of pulling out weapons super fast to change them for exact needs of the second" Who is saying this aside of you? I don't mind if it takes a sec to do the swap, as long as you can still continue to move while doing it.

Ranged is not going to be anywhere near as powerful as you seem to think, since if the creature runs at you after the first arrow, than you have maybe another shot before it gets to you and at that point you need melee weapons.

Lets give another situation, your running after say a deer or a bear that has ran away from you, so you swap to your bow and give chase, hitting it with a arrow and it decides to turn around and fight you... if theres no swap button you could die very easily in this situation if the bear turns around and starts attacking you with your bow out.

Again you can't look at the bear and back up at the same time, the bear runs faster than you can walk backwards, so you can't just keep shooting.

You can't really sprint out of the way, turn around, shoot, than sprint away again, shoot again cuz it would burn out your stamina so quickly that you would get caught pretty dang quick due to lack of stamina.

Really the biggest thing that "i" see ranged combat being good for is mainly new players so they can join the hunt of larger "boss foes" without walking up right next to them into 1hit range. I don't think bows should do alot of damage, but I also think it should be boosted by dex just like str boosts weapon damage.

Static
06-11-2020, 02:18 PM
My biggest issue with combat atm is that holding parry up for infinity time still gives the hit recovery every time to enemy creatures.

This does not feel right.

I feel that if you hold it up for longer than 2 sec it shouldn't give the hit recovery action anymore and should instead be blocking, since your holding it up to block.

I understand it would cost money to pay for graphics ect to add shields for proper blocking, but weapon blocking is still a thing so we could have the blocking feature supported from weapons without shields and possibly add shields later if theres budget for it.

A 2nd idea may be to automatically release parry after the attack hits the parry ~ this may be the best solution since if you suscessfully parry and it auto releases your parry, than you wouldn't be able to hold it beyond that for a 2nd block/parry... This sounds like the best option to me.

MrDDT
06-11-2020, 02:43 PM
This game already exists, its called WoW, maybe you'd enjoy playing that instead of turning this game into it?

I disagree massively with this entire concept, I think it would remove the skill from the game and turn it into skill burst combat, that is really really shitty.

I understand why DDT wants this, he would be a god and nobody could stand verse him, I think this is a horrid way to design a game.

I think it should be skill based so that if someone actually fights him they would have a fair chance instead of losing purely cuz of lower stats.

DDT's suggestions are a large step in the wrong direction, his suggestion is what MMO's used to be like a decade or longer ago, why bring us back into the past of gaming that everybody has evolved away from and expects better than?

Its a old and outdated concept to make skill spam number bar for combat.

It would be NEW AND INNOVATIVE if we continued to support the multi-directional twitch combat that everybody who actually plays pvp games loves as a unquie thing in this game that COULD be amazing if properly optimized.

I know of ONE other game that has been able to pull off twitch combat like this properly, kingdom come deliverance, it is by far, one of the best games out there when it comes to combat and xsyon is like a lower graphics version of it.. So it really makes me want to see things skill based, since in kingdom come deliverance, at the VERY START OF THE GAME your town gets raided and burned, your supposed to flee and run cuz they have armor (while you have none) and have way stronger swords than you, stronger stats, everything, its a unfair fight... However, a large majority of good players on their 2nd time around they fight the first guy and due to the skill, they are able to kill him with inferior equipment and stats purely due to out skilling them... I've watched a guy who was "extremely skilled" than take that equipment and slaughter all the guys coming to raid the city trying to work verse the story that says the city should be burned by them when you retreat.... The guy killed dozens of them due to having crazy good skill level.... That is amazing and should be the goal of every pvp based game that aims to be balanced.

No game was ever balanced by letting the guys with highest stats instant kill everybody else, but thats your suggestion, give additional damage in burst to people with already way higher damage than everybody else, its bad suggestion imo.


I understand you would disagree. These are my opinions. I do not think you need every system in the game to be "NEW and INNOVATIVE"
Chat systems have been around for 20+ years. You don't need to make them new and innovative. Pick a good chat system and put it in place.

The main thing about Xsyon is the building system, crafting system, and player made questing systems. You don't need every system to be special.
WOW is many parts of a game. WOW has many things this game does not have. WOW has a chat system. Does that mean this game is going to be WOW or Themepark because someone suggests a chat that is more like WOW? No.

Having a hotbar with skills on a cooldown is pretty normal. I think it works well for MMOs.
The system of combat you are talking about "multi-directional twitch combat" has been done before also in MMOs. I've played games like Darkfall.
The problem comes down to PING and CPU of the server. Both of which will be issues on this game. I do not see people playing Xsyon for the twitch based combat. They come here for the creative systems Xsyon has put in place. No need to make it very hard or near impossible for people to do combat. It's already pretty hard Xsyon is wanting to make it easier not harder to learn.

Here we go with "DDT wants to be a GOD" wow, what more do I have to do? I've already deleted my toon, and my whole base. When is it going to end? My suggestions are not for me to become more powerful. I want to see Xsyon be better.

My suggestion is not people insta skill other people, its about having more fun in combat than standing close doing spins around a target and left/right clicking over and over.
I also dont want to have twitch based combat so 1% of the people that play can have fun in combat, and then everyone else either hate combat because its too hard, or have massive ping issues that combat is not fun.

Twitch based combat BTW is not new or innovative. Its been done for a long time. They call them FPS. Or games like Fortnight.


My last post directing at this to you. The rest of my posts will solely be my opinion on what I believe should be.
Can you please stop trying to attack me and focus on the topic.


TLDR
Focus on the topic, stop attacking me

MrDDT
06-11-2020, 02:50 PM
My biggest issue with combat atm is that holding parry up for infinity time still gives the hit recovery every time to enemy creatures.

This does not feel right.

I feel that if you hold it up for longer than 2 sec it shouldn't give the hit recovery action anymore and should instead be blocking, since your holding it up to block.

I understand it would cost money to pay for graphics ect to add shields for proper blocking, but weapon blocking is still a thing so we could have the blocking feature supported from weapons without shields and possibly add shields later if theres budget for it.

A 2nd idea may be to automatically release parry after the attack hits the parry ~ this may be the best solution since if you suscessfully parry and it auto releases your parry, than you wouldn't be able to hold it beyond that for a 2nd block/parry... This sounds like the best option to me.

I agree with all this.

You don't even need to add a skill (blocking) to the game. Just simply let the parry drop after being hit. You can put it right back up again if you want. I also think there should be a timeout on how long you can hold it up. (4s or so) or at least make it cost stamina.

Static
06-11-2020, 05:45 PM
"I understand you would disagree. These are my opinions. I do not think you need every system in the game to be "NEW and INNOVATIVE"
Chat systems have been around for 20+ years. You don't need to make them new and innovative. Pick a good chat system and put it in place."

This whole comment is a strawman. "oh you use chat, why not use outdated mmo features nobody wants to use anymore?"

Like you see how many people where pissed off about when they found out elder scrolls online was just a wow clone with the type of combat your suggesting? If a HUGELY POPULAR FRANCHISE like the elder scrolls can piss off half their player base into not playing it due to that, than I don't think its a feature we should be adding to this game cuz nobody wants it in gaming today but you.

Its like saying "why don't we go back to turn based combat based off dice rolls".... cuz its boring combat we've long moved away from outside of boardgames.


The problem comes down to PING and CPU of the server. Both of which will be issues on this game. I do not see people playing Xsyon for the twitch based combat. They come here for the creative systems Xsyon has put in place. No need to make it very hard or near impossible for people to do combat. It's already pretty hard Xsyon is wanting to make it easier not harder to learn.

Another strawman. The ping/cpu is fine, jordi fixed the problems that caused desync of players/server/each other that prevented ranged combat by rewriting the creature migration, so this problem has been "fixed" and I've told you this twice already, making this the 3d time so you already know better.

You see MEEEEE playing xsyon for twitch combat, where have you even been? WE come up with some cool ideas and you come crawling back to derail everybody and change the direction of the game? I mean you've had 10 years to suggest things, maybe give some other people priority to try something else cuz obviously what you think hasn't helped the game in the past decade.

"They come here for the creative systems Xsyon has put in place." right alot of people want combat and raiding, two things that are in short supply in this game so I'm heavily advocating for ways to increase player interactions and give players areas to raid. One of those systems is the combat system, thats the directional twitch combat, its great and not many games have it, I donno why you don't think it is.

Who said anything about making it impossible to do combat? Stop strawmanning me, I never said this. By not having a bunch of keys to smash to give you increased damage, it doesn't make combat "impossible" your being dramatic and untruthful here.

Static
06-11-2020, 05:48 PM
Twitch based combat BTW is not new or innovative. Its been done for a long time. They call them FPS. Or games like Fortnight.

What are you smoking?

FPS is first person shooters.

First person shooters are not multidirectional melee twitch combat, I'm talking about all the different directions of combat instead of just being the same swing from the same direction, we have over half a dozen different swings, angles, how you can hit someone.

Reminds me of kingdom come deliverance.. great combat game... but you don't play combat games... why you commenting here again if the only experience you have with online games is wow style combat? What experience do you bring to the table here when you haven't played anything or worked on any games? I'm legitimately trying to help with real experience here, you can't even follow the terms I'm using from the industry.

Xsyon
06-12-2020, 06:34 AM
Well, with conflicting feedback such as this I will wait for feedback from other players and possibly run a poll if necessary.

A few comments:

1) I can adjust parrying as suggested.

2) Most players coming to Xsyon are expecting combat like in other 'survival sandbox' games, like Rust, Ark, 7 Days To Die. From what I've seen in those games, melee combat is simply mouse clicking to attack without any special attacks or defenses. I haven't played any of these games in depth however. This simple type of combat seems to be the more current type of combat that players expect. If I am wrong, let me know what I am missing. If there are popular 'survival sandbox' games that employ different types of melee combat, please let me know.

3) I'm fine with WoW style combat. Two specific things I didn't like about WoW melee combat are the auto attacking regular attacks and that there are too many similar special hot key attacks. Similar combat with the manual normal attacks and a few special attacks would be nice in my opinion.

4) I am also fine with twitch style combat. However, there are some issues. As MrDDT said, because of various ping rates from players around the world, perfect synchronization is not possible. Synch is a lot better than before and that enables me to move forward with ranged combat. I will not be able to match the level of synchronization of solo games or games that run small local servers. As I don't personally play any combat focused games I'm not very familiar with them and this makes it difficult for me to code, though I try my best. I did play Mount and Blade a bit and that type of combat is very difficult for me to mimic, especially without a proper animator.

5) Question for Static: When you mention a Power Attack, how would that be triggered if not by a hot key (or clicking an icon)?
Would it require a specific combination of mouse actions or something else?

Thanks

MrDDT
06-12-2020, 08:11 AM
1) I can adjust parrying as suggested.
Currently not noticing a change.
Also parry is random coming from animal attacks with no cues on which way its really coming. An animal attacking with its right paw and you parry left does not make it parry do 100% parry. So the cues the animal is attacking is total guesswork on parry defense.





2) Most players coming to Xsyon are expecting combat like in other 'survival sandbox' games, like Rust, Ark, 7 Days To Die. From what I've seen in those games, melee combat is simply mouse clicking to attack without any special attacks or defenses. I haven't played any of these games in depth however. This simple type of combat seems to be the more current type of combat that players expect. If I am wrong, let me know what I am missing. If there are popular 'survival sandbox' games that employ different types of melee combat, please let me know.[.quote]

You're assessment of them is correct.


[QUOTE=Xsyon;106031]
3) I'm fine with WoW style combat. Two specific things I didn't like about WoW melee combat are the auto attacking regular attacks and that there are too many similar special hot key attacks. Similar combat with the manual normal attacks and a few special attacks would be nice in my opinion.

Exactly how I feel.




4) I am also fine with twitch style combat. However, there are some issues. As MrDDT said, because of various ping rates from players around the world, perfect synchronization is not possible. Synch is a lot better than before and that enables me to move forward with ranged combat. I will not be able to match the level of synchronization of solo games or games that run small local servers. As I don't personally play any combat focused games I'm not very familiar with them and this makes it difficult for me to code, though I try my best. I did play Mount and Blade a bit and that type of combat is very difficult for me to mimic, especially without a proper animator.

Exactly.
You would also want to give the visual cues to players also of what is going on. So they can dodge or defend it. Like in Mount and Blade, you can do a counter parry block. You need to be in the right direction, you see to see they are going to parry your attack, and then you counter it. Not only does this take very fast pings to see because all of this is happening in 1s or less. You also need to be able to see by visual cues this is going on. If you make it just guess work, then all skillful play is lost.

Static
06-12-2020, 11:06 AM
5) Question for Static: When you mention a Power Attack, how would that be triggered if not by a hot key (or clicking an icon)?
Would it require a specific combination of mouse actions or something else?

You could honestly leave it as the "charged attack" whenever you "hold your weapon up as if your charging" whenever you release it, it triggers the power attack.

So we could make this happen by removing the charged attack loading bar and INSTEAD making it so the swing animation speed was cut in half while adding 50% damage.

This would cause the swing to go slower than a regular attack, at half speed, but for 50% more damage.

It should also give a hit recovery when it hits, but since its going to do extra damage anyways it should


2) Most players coming to Xsyon are expecting combat like in other 'survival sandbox' games, like Rust, Ark, 7 Days To Die. From what I've seen in those games, melee combat is simply mouse clicking to attack without any special attacks or defenses. I haven't played any of these games in depth however. This simple type of combat seems to be the more current type of combat that players expect. If I am wrong, let me know what I am missing. If there are popular 'survival sandbox' games that employ different types of melee combat, please let me know.

most other "survival sandboxes" are not very popular combat games, I feel trying to make your game after another game that isn't good combat isn't very wise when you already have a better system than the games you've claimed, why downgrade when you could upgrade?

Mount and blade combat should be closer to the goal. Directional attacks and blocking is why mount and blade has such a cult following, they love that style of combat and is the main reason why they play the game.|

Again with kingdom come deliverance, the story is okay, the world is okay, but people play it purely for the multi directional attacks and blocking, the combat is why it has such a cult following, not its "amazing story" cuz imo the story wasn't that great when it randomly ends without finishing the story, it left alot to be desired story wise... but the combat was sooooo good that I fininshed every last side quest and possible thing in the game, thats how good the combat was that it overshadowed every other bad aspect of the game.

Xsyon is opposite of that atm, every other aspect of the game is overshadowing the combat atm, so your not getting alot of combat based players due to that.... I feel if combat was modeled after mount n blade or kingdom come deliverance multi directional combat than we would have a combat game that people actually want to play for the combat.... instead of a building game that happens to have combat in it, it should be the main focus since alooot of players that will be the main focus, combat, doubly so on a pvp server, those people want to raid and combat.


3) I'm fine with WoW style combat. Two specific things I didn't like about WoW melee combat are the auto attacking regular attacks and that there are too many similar special hot key attacks. Similar combat with the manual normal attacks and a few special attacks would be nice in my opinion.

Some things like say a dodge would be hard to do without a double tap in the direction you want to dodge OR there being a skill button on your 1-9 you can press.

I think its better to double tap left to roll or dodge left, or hit shift to do the same thing than it woudl be to hit 3 on your 1-9 for it.

I think combat should be engrained into the character, instead of being a bunch of skills for bonus damage.

You want to block or parry, you can use your mouse for that, why would we make a skill for that?

Extra damage? We're trying to balance creatures so we don't NEED extra damage, why would we give extra damage for no reason with a bunch of spamable skills? This would ruin combat and turn the game into something I'm not interested in playing, WoW is by far the worst, bottom of the barrel type of pvp combat in existence today, it sucks and would ruin the game if put into it, reducing it to the title of another wow clone that there is hundreds to thousands of games like it, instead of being the unq thing xsyon is, we'd just be another wow clone.

I'd rather see this closer to dark souls than wow.

Thats 3 games that are polar opposite of wow, mount n blade, kingdom come delverance, dark souls, these are good combat games to model after unlike wow.

Static
06-12-2020, 11:09 AM
Modeling your melee combat after rust I think isn't very wise either since the game is a first person shooter, your supposed to have a gun, not melee weapons.

Melee weapons are a 2ndary thought in rust, again, its a first person shooter sandbox, not a melee sandbox like xsyon.

Again the most close game to compare would be mount n blade imo, while combat is currently coded to be as complex as kingdom come delverance with the multi directionals... Honestly if we can mix the multi directional with a dark souls style combat than we would have a extremely fun combat game to play.

Static
06-12-2020, 11:17 AM
Why I keep bring'n up kingdom come delverance is cuz they do a really good job with following through with attacks.

Meaning your swings are not fast or instant, different attacks have different swing speeds. Like your sword jab is going to be alot faster than a swing'n hit from the side, but it also does alot less damage. This should more or less be the goal here, you have slower, more powerful attack that someone can move out of the way of more easily and than counter hit you more easily after with.

The speed of the attacks makes the combat work, since players are stuck with the follow through of their swing if they miss, plus the start of the swing gives away what direction the combat is coming from so you can parry from that direction.

Xsyon
06-12-2020, 10:03 PM
Currently not noticing a change.
Yup, I haven't patched a change yet. I'll post when I have.


Also parry is random coming from animal attacks with no cues on which way its really coming. An animal attacking with its right paw and you parry left does not make it parry do 100% parry. So the cues the animal is attacking is total guesswork on parry defense.
Do you have any suggestions for visual clues? Slowing down the animations?

What do other games do? Are there any games that you know of with directional parry where you can gauge the direction of incoming attacks?

I guess in Mount & Blade you can gauge the attack direction because attacks are slower? Or synchronized better? (In fast combat even a 1/4 second delay is noticeable, I believe, 1/2 second for sure). Or are the animations more exaggerated?

Thanks

Xsyon
06-12-2020, 10:11 PM
You could honestly leave it as the "charged attack" whenever you "hold your weapon up as if your charging" whenever you release it, it triggers the power attack.

Ok, here is what I understand you are suggestion for the power attack:

1) I take the charged attack, but remove the swing power bar.

2) I remove the damage adjustment for partially charging the attack.

3) You can still click to raise and hold the attack. If you hold the attack, then release (as opposed to just clicking or clicking and releasing before reaching the 'hold' position), this becomes a 'power attack'

4) The second half of the animation (the release of the swing) would be slowed down.

5) The attack would do increased damage (just like the current charged attack, but less of a damage increase).

Is this correct?

Xsyon
06-12-2020, 10:23 PM
Most other "survival sandboxes" are not very popular combat games

While I will do my best to improve combat, I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

Comments like 'x' type of combat sucks aren't constructive. Players enjoy different types of combat and I will decide on what the overall community here enjoys and what the type of new players that come to Xsyon are looking for.

As I mentioned before, I personally enjoyed WoW combat with the reservations I already stated. A hybrid system, I believe would work well. Adding a few special attacks would not convert the current combat system into WoW combat. WoW combat is entirely based on the special attacks with auto combat happening in between. I would not set up the system like that.

The special attacks DDT suggested aren't simply bonus damage. They are attacks that would have different effects (damage over time, delays, stuns). Those are all things I originally planned to have in the game anyways.

Thanks

MrDDT
06-12-2020, 10:56 PM
Do you have any suggestions for visual clues? Slowing down the animations?

What do other games do? Are there any games that you know of with directional parry where you can gauge the direction of incoming attacks?

I guess in Mount & Blade you can gauge the attack direction because attacks are slower? Or synchronized better? (In fast combat even a 1/4 second delay is noticeable, I believe, 1/2 second for sure). Or are the animations more exaggerated?


Games like Mount & Blade of course but this is not an MMO.
M&B is very fast action. With chamber blocks (where you block with the weapon mid swing sorta like a parry), parry, block, dodge. This is the closest game I can think of where it has combat as Static is talking about. I think this combat is very very good, high player skill evolved. Which is why it's one of the best melee combat systems.
Slowing down animations for Xsyon (because its an MMO) would be required as in M&B like you said even 1/4 second (250ms) is highly noticeable. Actions are taking place in 100ms to 200ms. You have to see someone is attacking, direction, and type of attack. Then think of which type of counter you can do, and have the time left to animate it. You kill other player/npcs in 1 to 6 hits.


Take this with a grain of salt. Another way is heavy visual cues like in Tera.
Here you have dodge by double tapping, or using a special key to trigger you to get out of the way extra fast, or just move if enough time. (Like Xsyon currently)
They also have skills that parry and shield blocks. If you watch a video on it, you can see the monsters are a lot more of a big battle type fight.
This would require a lot less PING issues as it's a lot more scripted in what monsters/animals are doing.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/323370/TERA/


There are other games, but these are the 2 basic systems in this type of combat. M&B is a standard on that type, and Tera for MMO's is another type.

Static
06-13-2020, 11:12 AM
While I will do my best to improve combat, I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

Comments like 'x' type of combat sucks aren't constructive. Players enjoy different types of combat and I will decide on what the overall community here enjoys and what the type of new players that come to Xsyon are looking for.

As I mentioned before, I personally enjoyed WoW combat with the reservations I already stated. A hybrid system, I believe would work well. Adding a few special attacks would not convert the current combat system into WoW combat. WoW combat is entirely based on the special attacks with auto combat happening in between. I would not set up the system like that.

The special attacks DDT suggested aren't simply bonus damage. They are attacks that would have different effects (damage over time, delays, stuns). Those are all things I originally planned to have in the game anyways.

Thanks



Okay maybe I'm not being clear enough when I say its "not very popular"

I mean its not fun.

As in your creating non-fun combat.

Why?

"game isn't supposed to be combat focused" Than why not shutdown pvp server? Cuz everybody on pvp wants combat to not be after thought, so suggesting that pvp doesn't need to be combat focused imo is not wise, since that is EXACTLY what people want.

NOBODY wants to play xsyon's version of WoW, "IF THEY DID" they would just go play WoW, why play xsyon version of WoW when WoW already exists? I think it would be insanely foolish to model your game after a game that is looooong dead to the point where they brought back "classic WoW servers"

With respect; I don't think you have enough experience in this field to know what your talkinga bout when you say WoW is a good type of game for combat, cuz nobody I know feels this way.

Its worse than league of legends for combat... Are you saying your goal is to turn the game into a skill spamming brawler but not a decent combat game? I don't understand the logic behind this.

I don't understand the logic behind "well other games are not very good combat, so we must have shitty combat too!"

People WANT mount and blade online, multiplayer, mmo... So why act like doing this kind of combat is "not what other mmo's do so dont do it" this whole logic thread is ill-logical cuz your basically saying "I'm only willing to do things other games that are failing or have failed have done"

Why set yourself up for the same failure of others? Why try to clone other games people DO NOT ENJOY the combat of?

Why would you NOT try to use the type of combat people would actually want in your game?

To say that cuz a ancient game like WoW uses out dated features, that you can use out dated features too, is foolish at best, you should be trying to innovate, not recreate something of the past.

You could have amazing combat in this game with the current system if it was built upon but when you say things like this


I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

Things like this feel like your throwing the entire pvp server under the bus to say "well pve doesn't want this so why should I care?"

Nobody joins pvp for combat to be a "After thought" of the game, they join pvp for combat to be the main focus, you obviously are out of touch with what people want from pvp if you think that people on pve and pvp want the same thing; this is not true, they want different things.

Obviously people on PvE are going to treat combat as a 2ndary part of the game, a after thought that doesn't matter.

While people on PvP are going to want to fight things, creatures, players and even raid things(that they cant do currently)

People want ALOT more out of PvP than you seem to think.

Static
06-13-2020, 11:14 AM
Like you have no hope in hell of ever competing with WoW so why even try?

Why not make something better instead of a WoW clone if you know theres no way you could compete with them?

Like you won't add NPC's, theres no quests, there no cities, there no world to explore or guilds to join or raids to join or any of the stuff that acutally makes WoW fun... but you think just adding WoW combat is going to let you compete with them? I heavily disagree.

Static
06-13-2020, 11:16 AM
Ok, here is what I understand you are suggestion for the power attack:

1) I take the charged attack, but remove the swing power bar.

2) I remove the damage adjustment for partially charging the attack.

3) You can still click to raise and hold the attack. If you hold the attack, then release (as opposed to just clicking or clicking and releasing before reaching the 'hold' position), this becomes a 'power attack'

4) The second half of the animation (the release of the swing) would be slowed down.

5) The attack would do increased damage (just like the current charged attack, but less of a damage increase).

Is this correct?

Yes this is correct, I think somewhere around 50% slower speed for a 50% damage boost would be pretty balanced since you could alternatively do two quick attacks in the same time for most likely more total dps.

Static
06-13-2020, 11:22 AM
While I will do my best to improve combat, I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

I gotta address this again cuz its amazing to me how out of touch you are with what your player base wants on PvP and why they are quitting due to these features not being in place.

Combat is part of the game, yes, but on a PVP server it needs to be more than a back burned after thought, thats what adding skill spam is, a after thought, what someone too lazy to do it properly would do cuz its the easist thing to do, yet the most unfun thing to do. Your creating a easily coded combat system that everybody I know who has complained about combat would NOT enjoy.

I'll say that again, if you added WoW style combat to the game, it would NOT solve any of the peoples problems that I know of who have quit the game, they would still quit the game with WoW style combat since its not solving their "combat is broken" problem.

Again the reason "combat feels broken" is due to how the creatures and players interact with each other or even players vs players, not cuz of a "lack of spamable hotcue skills for extra damage"

Things like there only being one attack from the creature feels really really bad, focusing on spamable skills for a player BEFORE this would be foolish cuz you would be "solving" a non-problem in response to a real problem thats not being solved; how lifeless animals are to fight and how little options you have to actually fight them due to that.

Combat is boring cuz its repetative, you repeat the same actions till it dies.. thats why I've been trying to get you to understand that creatures need multiple different attacks in order to give some variarity so that your not always defending the same way or using the same action to avoid damage, there needs to be a change, so your forced to do something else, make the combat interactive instead of just a spamfest.

NOBODY wants to play spamfest combat when you just repeat the same thing, adding "hotcue skill spam" does NOT address this core issue.

Static
06-13-2020, 11:36 AM
As I mentioned before, I personally enjoyed WoW combat with the reservations I already stated.

With respect; your opinion is rather moot since you haven't played any real combat games like dark souls, or kingdom come.

By your own admition you don't play combat games, I understand why your not trying to focus on combat when you don't play combat games... however alot of other people DO play combat games, so trying to turn this game into a "noncombat game" like most think WoW to be is a huge leap in the wrong direction.

WoW is about raiding, drops, big quests, dungeons, guilds ect.... non of this exists in xsyon.... The WoW "combat system" is just a way for people to experience raiding, item drops, big quest, dungeons, guilds ect, its not the main focus of the game, its not good combat, its just the type of combat they used to experience the OTHER GOOD PARTS OF THE GAME that DO NOT EXIST in xsyon.

So if your just gona clone WoW combat, your gona fail us cuz there won't be any of the rest of the fun stuff in WoW to use that combat on, so nobody is going to be able to ignore how bad the combat is due to enjoying the raiding, dungeon, item drops ect ect cuz there isn't any of that!

So thats why people are so focused on "broken combat" cuz theres nothing else to do in the game so it sticks out like a sore thumb, cuz theres nothing to make you forget about how bad it is by powering through a quest or a raid or a dungeon or grinding for item drops... again none of this exists in xsyon, so you won't be able to ignore and forget the bad skill spam combat when theres nothing to mask how bad it.

Static
06-13-2020, 11:41 AM
Like someone spamming the same skills to kill mobs repeatedly trying to spawn a unq item drop on WoW, the fun is "maybe I'll get that item I'm grinding for" not "this combat is great". So your looking at this entire thing wrong, people on WoW are having fun doing the raid, or grinding for the item, not using the type of combat they picked, the combat doesn't make the game fun, what they are using the combat IN ORDER TO DO is what makes the game fun.

Currently theres nothing to do with combat in xsyon, so you can't use unfun combat and ask people to ignore and overlook it for the other fun parts of the game ~cuz theres nothing fun you can do with this type of combat that will make you overlook the combat... the combat itself needs to be the fun part of the game if you have no way of making them overlook the bad combat while enjoying something else, cuz there isn't anything else in xsyon... so adding skill spam WILL NEVER fix this problem of "combat being broken" due to these points your overlooking; everything outside of combat that makes the combat worth powering through despite it being unfun combat that every other game has moved away from..

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 12:09 PM
I gotta address this again cuz its amazing to me how out of touch you are with what your player base wants on PvP and why they are quitting due to these features not being in place.

I do not think that Mount and Blade style of combat is why PVP is not popular. First, PVP is always less popular. Second, the main reason by far is just the lack of support for PVP objectives.
King of the Hill.
Ranking Sytem.
Area Conquest/Control.
Objective based PVP.

That's why games like Rust/Conan Exiles etc can get away with pretty basic PVP because it doesn't have to be extremely skillful PVP to have PVPers wanting to play.
There is also a major limiting factor. PING and Server CPU power. The more you add in where actions are skillful and you need to make choices in a fraction of a second. Which is the style of skillful PVP you are wanting (which I agree is fun), you limit who can play. The server is based in Dallas, TX. Thus you are making anyone outside the USA at a major skillful PVP disadvantage.

Xsyon has already a major thing that many of the PVPer want. Full Loot. But after that there is zero PVP systems. There isn't even a reason to fight.



Combat is part of the game, yes, but on a PVP server it needs to be more than a back burned after thought, thats what adding skill spam is, a after thought, what someone too lazy to do it properly would do cuz its the easist thing to do, yet the most unfun thing to do. Your creating a easily coded combat system that everybody I know who has complained about combat would NOT enjoy.

I agree with PVP server back burner. But not because of the combat system of attacks. Oddly enough, you already have directional PVP, no one EVER EVER uses it. The reason is, its not effective because it's too hard to do with any type of lag. Try it. Fight a friend in PVP (test server if you want). Have your friend attack you and you try to parry the attacks. You have to skillfuly figure out which direction they are attacking, then choose that parry direction. You will parry the attack 100%. They will lose the stamina for attacking. Plus they will be stunned for 2s. You have to do this in .9s to 1.6s based on the type of attacks currently in Xsyon. So the system you are asking for is currently (mostly) put into the game.




I'll say that again, if you added WoW style combat to the game, it would NOT solve any of the peoples problems that I know of who have quit the game, they would still quit the game with WoW style combat since its not solving their "combat is broken" problem.

I disagree, a lot of people find combat boring. 1) Creatures are very basic and easy. 2) There is only 1 click attack options. There is no special skills or planning. With the new parry system it helps a little. Dodge is not bad, but gets me dizzy.



Again the reason "combat feels broken" is due to how the creatures and players interact with each other or even players vs players, not cuz of a "lack of spamable hotcue skills for extra damage"
Things like there only being one attack from the creature feels really really bad, focusing on spamable skills for a player BEFORE this would be foolish cuz you would be "solving" a non-problem in response to a real problem thats not being solved; how lifeless animals are to fight and how little options you have to actually fight them due to that.

We agree here mostly, but you are focusing on "extra damage" if extra damage was the only thing added. I would agree with you.
But what about options like "Spin Attack" where you can attack in 360 direction all at the same move. Or a "Lunge" attack giving you more reach. Or bleed, snare, other debuffs. I mean I can think of dozens of things outside of just extra damage.

Why does combat feel broken? I think a big part as you agree is that creatures are just very basic. They swing to attack. Nothing else. Lets give them special skills too. Ones that players can see (like he has added with bears standing up for a special attack).





Combat is boring cuz its repetative, you repeat the same actions till it dies.. thats why I've been trying to get you to understand that creatures need multiple different attacks in order to give some variarity so that your not always defending the same way or using the same action to avoid damage, there needs to be a change, so your forced to do something else, make the combat interactive instead of just a spamfest.

NOBODY wants to play spamfest combat when you just repeat the same thing, adding "hotcue skill spam" does NOT address this core issue.

Adding hotkeys does address this. It allows for more choice in comabt, it gives effects, it is more interactive. I fully agree the spamfest of combat we have now (or even with the click wait 2 seconds attack of charged combat moves) is very boring.

Look I can name dozens of games that are high skill and use hotkeys for special attacks. Darkfall Online is likely the most skillful PVP combat I've ever seen. They have hotkeys for special attacks.
I really think because of ping and CPU server, it's so much better to not worry about tying a combat system to who can react in 100ms or not. The games that use that type of system are not MMO's they are server based games where they highly limit the number of people per server and the servers are regional based.

Hotkeys does not make a game WOW. WOW is a themepark. It has a lot of rails that force you down a path or story. Xsyon is not like that, it wouldn't be like that even with hotkeys.
Player building, quests, no classes, massive skill system, no armor sets required to wear for you. Plus many other things. Hotkeys do not make a game WOW clones.
Xsyon is nothing like WOW.
That would be like saying WOW has a chat system, so does Xsyon thus it's just like WOW.

Which BTW WOW is not a bad game. I do not want Xsyon to be a WOW type game.
Like Xsyon did with color coding items based on rarity. That is a WOW system also. Nothing wrong with using a system that works as long as you don't lose the main direction of a sandbox, player driven content game.

Static
06-13-2020, 12:14 PM
"Rust/Conan Exiles"

You think these are combat games? Holy hell, your opinion is so moot cuz you don't play any combat games, I donno why your here talking about combat balance when you DO NOT EVEN PLAY ANY COMBAT GAMES.

"rust" a melee combat game? LOLOLOL "well he has a rock, and there is a axe and pickaxe in teh game, it must be cutting edge melee combat"

This is honestly what you think? Give your head a shake.

You keep echoing this "lagg is the reason we cant make good combat" when xsyon just stated he fixed the damn issue between server and player interactions or at least minimized it to the point where RANGED COMBAT was possible, this means, that the delay your talking about that would make pvp impossible isn't reality, plenty of people are able to play on 90-100 ping, I'm unsure what your talking about.

If ranged combat is possible, seems obvious that pvp combat is possible too without lagg.

I got to admit I really dislike reading your point of view..... If you love WoW so much, why are you playing this game instead of WoW? Go play WoW than if its the ultimate game? I WANT SOMETHING BETTER.


That would be like saying WOW has a chat system, so does Xsyon thus it's just like WOW.
This entire comment is pretty damn stupid. Text based games have a chat system, so should we reduce xsyon combat to text combat? No? Than stop suggesting that cuz someone use's a chat box that we should use DECADES OLD COMBAT THAT NOBODY LIKES BUT YOU.

Static
06-13-2020, 12:27 PM
Why does combat feel broken? I think a big part as you agree is that creatures are just very basic. They swing to attack. Nothing else. Lets give them special skills too. Ones that players can see (like he has added with bears standing up for a special attack).

Are you dense? You think that you can "fix combat" by just giving some spam skills?

That won't solve a damn thing, combat would not change, you would just have more skills to spam in the already bad system.... How this solves the rest of the HUGE GAPING PROBLEMS by adding spam skills is beyond me, I can't understand your logic at all and I feel like your the reason why this game hasn't evolved in ten years.

If WoW combat was the way to solve this game's problems, than why didn't it work for any other dead/failed game that tried it?

Theres DOZENS if not more failed MMO's with this type of combat, what do you think xsyon is going to do better without npcs, dungeons, raids, guild battles or anything else that makes you IGNORE the unfun combat to experience a fun part of the game?

There isn't any fun parts of teh game in xsyon aside of those you make yourself, so combat itself needs to be fun.

Dark souls, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

Mount & blade, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

Yes, there is other things going on in the game that are fun too, but the MAIN REASON people play these games is FOR THE COMBAT.

Now am I saying xsyon should be only for the combat? No. I'm saying you have building done already, you have farming done already, you have scavenge done already, there is already multiple other aspects to the game COMPLETED. So its "ALREADY" more than "just a combat game". To say that cuz there is other parts of the game, that you should ignore combat and throw it under the bus cuz its not a main focus feels like a cop out to me "lets not make combat great so people can focus on the other parts of the game" ? is that really your stance? Cuz if it is, your throwing half or more of your pvp population under the bus due to how out of touch you are with what people want on pvp being different than what people want on pve.

Pvp players play pvp games.

If you BOTH don't play combat pvp games than you BOTH are NOT the target market, so why argue with me if "I" am the target market since I play pvp and combat focused games?

If you BOTH don't like combat, you BOTH can play PvE where combat is not a thing. PvP the combat SHOULD be the main focus, cuz anything wrong with combat is going to stick out like a SORE THUMB to any combat/pvp minded players who join pvp server, they are going to have expectations, standards that are not met by the game currently that you seem to be unaware of.

Static
06-13-2020, 12:38 PM
Something nether of you seem to be aware of is this:

November 23, 2004

Thats the date world of warcraft was released.

That makes this combat system at least 16 years old, older than xsyon even.

Why model your combat after a 16 year old game that nobody thought the combat was great on to start with?

Why not model your game after something like mount & blade or dark souls that are LEGENDARY for being extremely good combat, that people are BEGGING the developers to make multi-player.

You could be feeling a hole in the gaming market that people ACTUALLY want, making a multiplayer game with mount n blade or dark souls type combat, this would be amazing and people would flock to THIS GAME for THAT COMBAT.

But WoW skillspam? Why would people flock here for that? Why would this be something new worth people coming back for if its a 16+ year old feature?

Static
06-13-2020, 12:42 PM
Sorry if I sound so frusterated but I'm watching all the potential of this game, the reasons why I have continued to stick it out, get flushed down the toilet with these suggestions.

I won't be playing if we turn this into WoW, there are alot of other games I could be playing, alot of new innovative games like "Last Oasis" that came out, its a survival game like xsyon but has a great combat system, its going to overshadow xsyon if you turn it into a WoW clone, I already know people who have quit xsyon to play Last Oasis.

Instead of looking at games from 16 years ago, maybe look at whats being released today so you know what you need to compete with for todays standards, your not competing with games from 16 years ago today...

Last Oasis has great multi directional combat, please stop quoting rust (a first person shooter, focused on guns) as a legitimate comparison to xsyon, cuz its not.

Static
06-13-2020, 12:47 PM
Again Last Oasis has equipable skills, just like xsyon, but they are not special attacks or WoW style boosts.

You can equip a bandage to use on yourself if you have a bandage, this could be a great skill to have.

You can equip your waterskin to use on yourself if you have a waterskin, this could be a great skill to have (altho kinda moot cuz you can just drink off item)

The point I'm making is that actions are fine, but creating WoW style special attacks is not what people want in a survival game, its going to ruin the survival aspect of it and turn it into a wow or league of legends brawler.

Its MUCH BETTER to have real time directional combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9MGcFE0oDQ

People are STOKED for this game.

I'm NOT STOKED AT ALL for WoW combat upgrade and NOBODY I've talked to that has quit xsyon thinks this is worth coming back for... So whats the point in this? Nobody is going to be stoked bout this style of combat aside of ddt and maybe some pve people, so non-combat people will love it?

If your going to listen to non-combat players to balance combat, than again, whats the point in having a pvp server if you want teh game to effectively be whatever non-combat pve style players want?

Why not just remove pvp and have your pve "combat is not the main focus of the game' server where everybody builds instead of combat.

I mean if you want to ignore everybodies request for fixed pvp, than why not just delete pvp server if your goal is to have it a pve server without any focus on combat?

Static
06-13-2020, 01:03 PM
Like your talking about "other survival games"

You notice anything weird while watching other survival games?

NONE of them have loading bars to pick up anything or craft anything.

Hes picking up rocks, plants ect off the ground pretty instantly.

Yes hes gotta chop a tree to get wood, but you get resources from each chop.

This is a "instant reward" system that doesn't exist in xsyon, your forced to use a loading bar for every task..... this means more time sitting and waiting and less time playing the game and having fun.... Adding more combat skills for spam damage is just going to support this more since you'll avoid combat while you wait for your loading bars to refresh, than spam them all on the next target... your bring'n the unfun aspect of loading bars into combat, this is really really bad.

If you ask me, this is more of a issue with new players than the combat system, everything takes so much time to do and for no reason other than to watch a loading bar.

Why don't you focus on this when compairing xsyon to other survival games like rust or lost oasis? Loading bars are not fun, other survival games let you pick up things and craft instantly...

Xsyon is a completely different game and should be treated as such, not cloned after other games in the market that are old and out dated.

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 01:09 PM
"Rust/Conan Exiles"

You think these are combat games? Holy hell, your opinion is so moot cuz you don't play any combat games, I donno why your here talking about combat balance when you DO NOT EVEN PLAY ANY COMBAT GAMES.


This entire comment is pretty damn stupid. Text based games have a chat system, so should we reduce xsyon combat to text combat? No? Than stop suggesting that cuz someone use's a chat box that we should use DECADES OLD COMBAT THAT NOBODY LIKES BUT YOU.

Rust and Conan are Sandbox games, and survival games. I was not saying they are great combat. Which is exactly what I was saying.

I do like WOW for what it is, but it's not a sandbox game. It's not a survival game. Xsyon has a lot of things WOW and many other games do not have, which is why I like Xsyon. Crafting, Building, Skills etc. I stated this before.

I'm not sure how to make it more clear. But putting a small subsystem in from another game does not make it a clone of that game. Example was chat system, or the color rarity of items system.

Not sure where you getting I want text based combat.



You keep echoing this "lagg is the reason we cant make good combat" when xsyon just stated he fixed the damn issue between server and player interactions or at least minimized it to the point where RANGED COMBAT was possible, this means, that the delay your talking about that would make pvp impossible isn't reality, plenty of people are able to play on 90-100 ping, I'm unsure what your talking about.

If ranged combat is possible, seems obvious that pvp combat is possible too without lagg.


Yes the desync is much better, the lag is much better, however, that does not change the inherent fact of it.

Please just test the combat you are asking for in Xsyon, it's mostly here. Get a friend to PVP you on TEST server or PVP server. You try to parry their attacks. Because of the inherent delay of MMOs you will have major issues doing this. You need to see that they are attacking a direction, then you need to react, then you need to have enough time to do the parry. All this takes factions of a second. You have to do this in .9 to 1.6s in Xsyon with 0ping. Add in the fact you likely have 50 to 100 ping. If you live in the US. 100 to 250 if you live outside it.

I'm echoing this because it's important. Just test it. It's the system you are asking for already in Xsyon. See how it plays out for you. I've tested it, it's 1) Not fun 2) Near impossible 3) Ends up being guesswork. 4) Ineffective for skillful play




I got to admit I really dislike reading your point of view..... If you love WoW so much, why are you playing this game instead of WoW? Go play WoW than if its the ultimate game? I WANT SOMETHING BETTER.

Well if WOW had everything Xsyon has it wouldn't be WOW and I would be playing it. But it does not.
I'm not asking for all or most or even some of what WOW has to be in Xsyon. I'm saying for 1 thing. Hotkeys for special attacks. Which almost all games have.



Pvp players play pvp games.

If you BOTH don't play combat pvp games than you BOTH are NOT the target market, so why argue with me if "I" am the target market since I play pvp and combat focused games?

I've done more PVP in Xsyon than just about anyone I would guess. But also remember Xsyon is not targeting PVPers. It has PVP but it's not made for that market. It's made for everyone to have fun that wants to play Sandbox Survival. You don't have to take my word for it, Xsyon already said this.




Dark souls, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

Mount & blade, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

Yes, there is other things going on in the game that are fun too, but the MAIN REASON people play these games is FOR THE COMBAT.


I think maybe you losing focus here. 1) These are not MMORPGs nor are they Sandbox. 2) Xsyon is not combat focused.
Are these combat games fun? Yes, I think combat is fun in both of these games, but they are combat focused games, that are RPG server based or even single player. It's going to be very hard to put those systems in an MMO.

One game that does have great combat and is an MMO and considered sandbox is Darkfall Online. However, it's also semi FPS (it has FPS and 3rd person melee)

I know you want this type of combat, I'm not saying not to ask for it. I'm saying there are likely limits. Because of those limits, you might want to see about other options than left click swing attack only as we have now.

Xsyon
06-13-2020, 01:18 PM
Again the reason "combat feels broken" is due to how the creatures and players interact with each other or even players vs players

Does combat still feel 'broken' to you?

Static
06-13-2020, 01:21 PM
Heres another video to watch group combat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nYxroMaUpw

Static
06-13-2020, 01:24 PM
Does combat still feel 'broken' to you?

As in, theres no options? Yes.

You have one attack type. All creatures you attack only have one attack type.

This feels very broken, yes.

Theres no real interaction in combat, meaning that regardless of what you do the results will the be the same, every risk has the same response, theres no change, theres no out playing or out smarting what your fighting verse.

I'm trying "really hard" to give advise to fix this instead of just saying "its broken" like other people have, however, when I see suggestions of adding a bunch of special moves instead of addressing the cores issues, than I have to say that we're focusing on the wrong things here.

The problem is not player damage or lack of special skills.

The problem is player interactions in combat with creatures being limited and feeling lifeless due to this.

My suggestions are a attempt to add life.

WoW combat would not add anymore life or interaction, it would just make killing things easier.

Static
06-13-2020, 01:26 PM
For example if you had multiple directional attacks from creatures the same way as a player did, than you would have to block from different directions instead of just the same head on direction.

This would mean you would have to parry from different directions than the same straight on direction.

If you had different attacks, possibly a power attack from creatures that is slower but more powerful that you dont want to parry or dodge, would force you to change tactics and move out of the way instead of trying to parry or block.

All of these would help add life to combat and make it feel less like a soul less mmo from 20 years ago where the creature runs up to you and you both spam attacks till one of you dies.

Static
06-13-2020, 01:31 PM
All attacks seem too smooth and even with animation too, theres no build up or power behind it.

Have you ever been in a fist fight in real life? Ever trained any martial arts? You can't just throw a haymaker out of nowhere, its slower at the start to build up while your loading your arm, than faster as you actually throw your arm.

Your not wing'n your arm at the same speed as you setup/load for it.

With respect; I'm not sure you guys have the same combat mind I do due to major lack of experience on your parts, you don't play combat games and I'm doubting you train any martial arts, so I'm unsure what experience you guys are speaking from here that would make your opinions valid if you don't play combat games and you don't think about combat or train combat with martial arts.

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 01:32 PM
As in, theres no options? Yes.

You have one attack type. All creatures you attack only have one attack type.

This feels very broken, yes.

Theres no real interaction in combat, meaning that regardless of what you do the results will the be the same, every risk has the same response, theres no change, theres no out playing or out smarting what your fighting verse.

I'm trying "really hard" to give advise to fix this instead of just saying "its broken" like other people have, however, when I see suggestions of adding a bunch of special moves instead of addressing the cores issues, than I have to say that we're focusing on the wrong things here.

The problem is not player damage or lack of special skills.

The problem is player interactions in combat with creatures being limited and feeling lifeless due to this.

My suggestions are a attempt to add life.

WoW combat would not add anymore life or interaction, it would just make killing things easier.


I think the word broken is not good here, I think a better term is boring.

How to add life to it, is give players more options. Give the fight more things going on it. Animals special moves etc. I surely see adding special moves for players thru hotkeys the easiest way to do this.
Can you add a system like Static is saying. I think its possible but like the current parry system, will not be fun.

Mostly, you already have the system in for PVP. You have parry (which acts like blocking). You find out which direction the player is attacking you and you parry it. Once you parry you take 0 damage and you have 2s to attack back.
In PVP I do not see this being used. Currently in PVE, I see it being used well, because you likely going to have group fighting where one is "tanking" using parry/dodge. The others are "DPS", where they only attack as fast as they can spinning around to the back of the creature. If it changes targets, they go into "tanking" mode of parry/dodge.
This adds a little life to the combat for PVE. However, dodge IMO is the only real way to do anything in PVP. But I've not PVPed much with the new parry system. But I expect most of PVP (from what I've done) is using the dodge system, as parrying is too hard to figure out which direction the attack is coming in the .9s per attacks, over and over.

Don't get me wrong, parry/dodge combat currently is an improvement, but as Static is saying you want more.

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 01:36 PM
For example if you had multiple directional attacks from creatures the same way as a player did, than you would have to block from different directions instead of just the same head on direction.

This would mean you would have to parry from different directions than the same straight on direction.

If you had different attacks, possibly a power attack from creatures that is slower but more powerful that you dont want to parry or dodge, would force you to change tactics and move out of the way instead of trying to parry or block.

All of these would help add life to combat and make it feel less like a soul less mmo from 20 years ago where the creature runs up to you and you both spam attacks till one of you dies.

Some of this is already in game.

Creatures already attack in directions. You just can't see it to know which direction the attack. So its guesswork.

Dodge is equal to "getting out of the way". They are exactly the samething. Dodge skill just lets to move faster based on your skill AGI weight and running skill.

i agree having you spam a skill til one of you dies is boring. I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for special skills where you use them in a case by case to use tactics. Like snaring a target you know is about to turn and run.

Static
06-13-2020, 01:39 PM
I think the word broken is not good here, I think a better term is boring.

sure thats a good way to put it, boring.

The fact theres no life or differences in your interaction makes it boring. The fact it doesn't seem alive, but rather just a basic scripted creature that just runs directly at you and spams 1 attack till it dies makes it feel like a bad mmo from 20 years ago.

Like the creature doesn't dodge or move or anything, it just spams 1 attack till death.

Static
06-13-2020, 01:41 PM
i agree having you spam a skill til one of you dies is boring. I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for special skills where you use them in a case by case to use tactics.

I disagree that these are different things.

Asking for additional spam skills till someone dies is not changing anything, its taking the exact same problems and adding extra spam skills.

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 01:42 PM
Heres another video to watch group combat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nYxroMaUpw


This is a great example of what Static is talking about Mount and Blade (in this case Last Oasis) style combat

https://youtu.be/3nYxroMaUpw?t=1760


I put it at a timestamp so you can see.

You have the attacks are coming at directions, you can see with the white/red bars popping up. You can then see the player being attack is moving his weapon to parry/block the attack to either left or right side based on the white/red bars.


This is more skillful interactive combat that Static is talking about. I agree, very close to Mount and Blade (I didnt see all the options M&B has, as Last Oasis is more basic combat).

I think this combat is more fun than Xsyon by a good bit and exactly what Static is talking about.



I would like to note that as I agree this would be better than Xsyon's current combat, I feel that special attack powers would be the better way to go.



I forgot to say
@Static
This system is already in for PVP in Xsyon. So what you are asking for in PVP, is already in place.

Static
06-13-2020, 01:58 PM
Yes thats my whole point, this type of combat of last oasis is not anymore complex than what xsyon is... Could easily turn xsyon into a combat system like this... this is really fun back n forth style combat.

So instead of turning it into what is obviously a extremely fun gameplay style like last oasis, if you turn it into WoW instead, you'll have removed this type of gameplay and made it more about skill spamming and avoiding combat till the cooldown of your skills comes back up again.

Static
06-13-2020, 02:04 PM
I forgot to say
@Static
This system is already in for PVP in Xsyon. So what you are asking for in PVP, is already in place.

Sure this system is in place for PvP since players vs other players uses the directional combat.

However, if you watched the first video I linked, it shows the player fighting a monkey that is armed with a stick, than later, a armored monkey with a spiked club that was alot stronger and better at combat....

"better at combat" means that he is better able to make use of directional attacks and directional blocks, this has NOTHING to do with the damage or health like seems to be the main focus in balance so far on xsyon.

The biggest problems I see are:

1)Currently in xsyon, all creatures do not attempt to block or dodge attacks.

2)All attacks come from the same animation as well so all attacks look the same and thus all attacks get the same directional parry response since it always seems to come from the same point.

3)They spam the same attack/action without any change in action or attacks. Meaning they don't attempt to do anything else but attack, theres no circle around the player, theres no movement at all aside of running STRAIGHT at you.

4)They spam the same attack. Meaning they don't have a 2ndary or 3d attack to cause you to react differently, this means you always react the same to every attack cuz every attack is the same.

These are huge glaring problems with combat atm and adding WoW style skill spam will NOT solve ANY of these issues if the creature still feels like a script instead of feeling alive with a level of interaction that forces you to think about your actions.

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 02:10 PM
Sure this system is in place for PvP since players vs other players uses the directional combat.

However, if you watched the first video I linked, it shows the player fighting a monkey that is armed with a stick, than later, a armored monkey with a spiked club that was alot stronger and better at combat....

"better at combat" means that he is better able to make use of directional attacks and directional blocks, this has NOTHING to do with the damage or health like seems to be the main focus in balance so far on xsyon.

The biggest problems I see are:

1)Currently in xsyon, all creatures do not attempt to block or dodge attacks.

2)All attacks come from the same animation as well so all attacks look the same and thus all attacks get the same directional parry response since it always seems to come from the same point.

3)They spam the same attack/action without any change in action or attacks. Meaning they don't attempt to do anything else but attack, theres no circle around the player, theres no movement at all aside of running STRAIGHT at you.

4)They spam the same attack. Meaning they don't have a 2ndary or 3d attack to cause you to react differently, this means you always react the same to every attack cuz every attack is the same.

These are huge glaring problems with combat atm and adding WoW style skill spam will NOT solve ANY of these issues if the creature still feels like a script instead of feeling alive with a level of interaction that forces you to think about your actions.



So what you are saying is that PVP combat in Xsyon is currently fine? It's just creature combat where the problem is?

Where as I feel like PVP combat in Xsyon is boring, and parry is next to impossible to use due to ping/server issues inherent in MMOs
Which is why I believe that you can use keybind able special attacks that increase the tactics and fun without issues of ping. I'm still not sure why you think that WOW style special skills are not fun. I can see how you can think they are less skillful as you do not need to react in a split second, but I still think they are fun.

Static
06-13-2020, 02:13 PM
Instead of continuously pointing out whats wrong, heres a possible solution I thought of;

What if we mirror'd the creature animation? Like for example a bear takes its one paw and swings it across from the one side, what if you mirror's the animation so he does the same thing with the opposite paw?

This would give you a left and a right directional attack from the creature and would be at least a good basic starting point towards making creatures feel alive and less predictable.

Maybe thats a good word to focus on, predictable, creatures should not be predictable, you should have to watch to see what they are going to do, not be able to predictably act before they even act.

like for example, if I'm fighting a bear, I know that if I parry a hit, than hit the bear myself, I have to automatically put parry up after I finish my hit cuz I'm predicting that the bear will hit me again with the same attack, from the same direction... so I'm not really fighting the bear, I'm predicting what the bear is going to do cuz theres no other option for it to do anything else.

If the bear had other options for attacks, than I wouldn't be able to predict exactly where the attack is coming from, and the correct response, before he even starts making the attack.

I hope this better explains the overall problems, I for sure agree saying "broken" is vague and doesn't help alot.

Static
06-13-2020, 02:15 PM
So what you are saying is that PVP combat in Xsyon is currently fine? It's just creature combat where the problem is?

No I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying swing speed is off and needs to be re-looked at for balance.

If you watch last oasis, their swing speeds are wildly different than xsyon and this leads to different combat due to that.

I'm saying pvp is more balanced and less lifeless than pve verse creatures.

Meaning combat feels broken to people cuz they fight creatures more often than other players.

The goal should be to make creatures feel as if your fighting a alive, thinking, breathing player, currently that is not the case at all.


Where as I feel like PVP combat in Xsyon is boring, and parry is next to impossible to use due to ping/server issues inherent in MMOs

For the millionth time, you should try pvp again than since this ping/server issue your talking about isn't a problem currently.

Again; the problem has been solved by rewriting the creature migration patch to the point where jordi is moving forward with ranged combat.

Do you know much about server lagg and ranged combat? I would think not if your saying melee combat will have lagg that ranged combat won't be effected by, its a oxymoron, you understand this right?

If melee combat had such lagg issues, ranged combat would be impossible.

Again, I disagree with you that there isn't enough time or that lagg is too high to react, I have zero problems doing it even with the current system, again I'm obviously better at combat games than you since I enjoy and play them, so I don't feel we should balance a game towards people who dont play combat games or don't enjoy combat games when we're talking about combat balance.

We should be making combat something people enjoy doing, whats the point of doing anything less?

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 02:21 PM
No I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying swing speed is off and needs to be re-looked at for balance.

If you watch last oasis, their swing speeds are wildly different than xsyon and this leads to different combat due to that.

I'm saying pvp is more balanced and less lifeless than pve verse creatures.

Meaning combat feels broken to people cuz they fight creatures more often than other players.

The goal should be to make creatures feel as if your fighting a alive, thinking, breathing player, currently that is not the case at all.

Well, I agree with you that creatures are pretty boring.

However, I disagree with you that PVP in Xsyon is fine, even if you change swing speeds.

Anyways, I'm going to leave it at that. I still think Xsyon should add in special moves for creatures, and players. Parry and Dodge are good currently, but I feel combat to me is just left clicking over and over. PVP is lack luster because slowing the speed down would need to be balanced for much higher pings making combat a breeze for someone with low ping but hard for someone with high ping.
Special powers are more interactive for everyone and as Xsyon is not based on PVP, I think more fun.

Static
06-13-2020, 02:24 PM
I'm still not sure why you think that WOW style special skills are not fun. I can see how you can think they are less skillful as you do not need to react in a split second, but I still think they are fun.

I guess its my job to explain to you the value of combat games now cuz you don't play combat games so you can't see the value in games you don't play?

1) it removes skill from the game

2) it turns combat into skill spam

3) it turns combat into less intense combat by making players want to remove themselves from combat to wait for their cooldowns to refresh

4) players who are waiting for cooldowns are not focusing on combat, but rather, focusing on when they can skill spam again

I have been extremely clear my reasons why people dislike this game, as in, massive amounts of people not just me think this is a old and outdated form of gameplay.

I know I've said this before, but why not repeat myself for your benefit; when elder scrolls online was found to be a WoW style skill spamming game instead of a LIVE action game like skyrim or last oasis, half the player base freaked out and boycotted the game.

Do you think xsyon has enough population to get boycotted by half of all gaming population? I don't.

Do you think the WoW skill spam system is so popular that people will start playing this game purely due to the addition of it? I don't.

So what is honestly the point than aside of making you happy?

Static
06-13-2020, 02:26 PM
Special powers are more interactive for everyone and as Xsyon is not based on PVP, I think more fun.

I think everybody on pvp server disagrees with you, I think 90% of the people who have quit pvp disagree with you, I think 90% of the people who quit when the game split pvp and pve would disagree with you.

The game has barely anyone playing, trying to tell me that "xsyon is not based on pvp" as if its a good stance is the reason why so many people have given up on this game, if the stance going forward is "xsyon is not a pvp game" than SHUT DOWN THE BLOODY PVP SERVER and make it CLEAR TO EVERYBODY what the focus is; vanity building, not a survival.

To try and tell me, your going to make brand new survival game with ZERO focus on combat, I would have to laugh and say come up with a new idea, so why turn xsyon into that?

Why is last oasis the hottest game going right now for survival melee combat? Why isn't xsyon? What are the differences? What can we learn from last oasis to make xsyon better?

If we look at a game from 16 years ago and turn xsyon into a WoW clone I think that would be a huge mistake.

If we look at a game released this year and turn xsyon into something that takes the parts people enjoy in that game and adds it to xsyon to make it better, than people from THOSE GAMES and people who enjoy THOSE GAMES will play THIS GAME.

Seems really obvious to me, but than again, I play combat games and enjoy combat games so I'm looking at this from a different direction than you two when I know for a FACT its widely accepted that WoW has some of the worst, most outdated combat out there today.. yet you both think 16 year old combat is somehow better? Thats despressing.

Static
06-13-2020, 02:42 PM
Okay so I've brought up last oasis... but what about Life is Feudal? Again this is a combat system way more complex than rust so I donno why rust is both of your "go to" game to compare xsyon to when theres no melee combat in rust, its all gun combat.

WoW is NOT a survival game, its NOT a sandbox game, its not new or innovative, its 16 year old combat, why are we trying to copy this?

Why not try and take the things people liked, like Life is Feudal or last oasis (actual sandbox and survival with melee combat focus like xsyon) instead of rust or WoW that is a first person shooter and a skill spam, nether of them are anywhere near what xsyon is or even trying to be, so why try to be them when its a completely different genre of game, while ignoring the ones that ARE the same genre of game like Life is Feudal or last oasis?

Xsyon
06-13-2020, 02:43 PM
As I stated in my original post

Note: Please keep suggestions as concise as possible and the arguments to a minimum. It's taking me a long time to go through these threads (and suggestions) to pick out the actual suggestions.

The constant arguing does not help and it discourages other players from joining in and providing feedback.

I will also reiterate again: I will do my best to improve combat but I am not a combat programmer and my resources are very limited.

I will not pretend that I have the ability or resources to create a combat system to rival new combat focused games with multi-million dollar budgets.

Again, I will do my best but I do not want you guys to have unrealistic expectations.

I will next post to respond to specific suggestions so far. I will also be waiting for feedback from other players.

Thanks

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 03:10 PM
I guess its my job to explain to you the value of combat games now cuz you don't play combat games so you can't see the value in games you don't play?

1) it removes skill from the game

2) it turns combat into skill spam

3) it turns combat into less intense combat by making players want to remove themselves from combat to wait for their cooldowns to refresh

4) players who are waiting for cooldowns are not focusing on combat, but rather, focusing on when they can skill spam again

I have been extremely clear my reasons why people dislike this game, as in, massive amounts of people not just me think this is a old and outdated form of gameplay.

I know I've said this before, but why not repeat myself for your benefit; when elder scrolls online was found to be a WoW style skill spamming game instead of a LIVE action game like skyrim or last oasis, half the player base freaked out and boycotted the game.

Do you think xsyon has enough population to get boycotted by half of all gaming population? I don't.

Do you think the WoW skill spam system is so popular that people will start playing this game purely due to the addition of it? I don't.

So what is honestly the point than aside of making you happy?

I do play combat games.
I still disagree with you.
1)You can have skill with hotkeys powers. To say Hotkey'd skills/powers remove all skill is not true. Many games prove this is not true.
2)Spam is relative. Saying that hotkey'd skills/powers mean it can't be nothing but spamming one key or hitting on cooldown all your powers is not true.
3)Cooldown's that take few seconds to return, does not mean people will "leave combat" Yes if you had a superpower that takes a min+ I'm sure that can happen, so don't make that happen.
4)You can focus on combat and cooldowns. Skillful play is using all tools. You can say the samething that people are focused on which direction the attack is coming from an not other factors makes boring combat all. Personally, I think mount and blade combat is boring. This does not mean I'm not good at it, just means I find it boring.

You have been clear in your reasons. You have to assume that we agree with your reasons, and I do not fully agree. I think combat is part of a game.
I think the biggest reason people leave this game is because it's boring and has more to do with the green bars in crafting everything taking time to do than anything else. The next is give players some direction. I know Xsyon is meant to be fully open world up to the player, but give them something to shoot for.

Well because I believe most gamers are already used to hotkey powers, and Xsyon is not based on combat. So there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Heck even your system is not something Xsyon would be inventing he would be using it based on other games. I have no problem using other games to help get ideas and put those good ideas in to Xsyon.
I think what should be considered is who all would it be for? I think Mount and Blade (or Last Oasis) combat is good. It's better than Xsyon. I just think special skilled powers would be better for more people. This also includes I think it would be easier to code.
Then also have issues with Archery with the your system would then need to be FPS, or a very close over the shoulder skill. Again I think you just moving further and further from the market of who is going to be playing Xsyon. It's not made for high skilled combat, its a sandbox MMO with focus on building, exploring, crafting, player created questing.

Static
06-13-2020, 03:12 PM
I will not pretend that I have the ability or resources to create a combat system to rival new combat focused games with multi-million dollar budgets.

? what are you talking about ?

Both life is feudal and last oasis where made by smaller studios on limited budgets, I'm not sure why you seem to think any game made in the last couple years is a multi-million dollar budget, but this is a strawman that isn't true.

You can have decent combat without a multi-million dollar budget.

Xsyon combat is already EXTREMELY CLOSE to last oasis, again, the problem with combat is mainly the CREATURES not the PLAYERS being incomplete.

This again means that the creatures are the problem, I have offered many suggestions to fix that in my posts here, but focusing on the player by giving them extra skills does not address ANY of the problems with creatures in combat that makes it "boring and broken feeling"

Static
06-13-2020, 03:14 PM
ddt you don't even play THIS game, why should anyone be listening to you?

I've been playing every single last day.

Why should anyone listen to you ddt when you abandoned this game and are only back cuz you seen MY suggestion of parry get put in the game.

Your derailing posts, unable to understand what other people are talking about and are slowing down our ability to balance and change the game for teh better.

You've had 10 years to tell people what you think of this game, why not give some other people a chance since you DO NOT EVEN PLAY ANYMORE?

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 03:15 PM
Xsyon combat is already EXTREMELY CLOSE to last oasis, again, the problem with combat is mainly the CREATURES not the PLAYERS being incomplete.

This again means that the creatures are the problem, I have offered many suggestions to fix that in my posts here, but focusing on the player by giving them extra skills does not address ANY of the problems with creatures in combat that makes it "boring and broken feeling"



I agree that creatures are a large part of the issue with combat. If you are going to use the Mount and Blade (Last Oasis) system, you will want to slow down their attacks and visually show which direction they are attacking, to allow players to dodge or parry the action correctly.

If you are going to go with skills, giving them powers that they used, you would still want to visually show players that they are doing a special attack, so players can dodge or parry, or use a special skill themselves to counter it.

Static
06-13-2020, 03:16 PM
Look ddt, YOU DO NOT PLAY ANYMORE YOU HAVE ABANDONED THE GAME, who cares what you think honestly.

If you get what you want, I will quit and abandon this game, losing arguably the only player who logs in every day to pvp.

I am here, every day, helping players, helping newbs, giving advise, I'm out here.

You? Your just spamming up the forums on a game you used to play.

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 03:21 PM
Look ddt, YOU DO NOT PLAY ANYMORE YOU HAVE ABANDONED THE GAME, who cares what you think honestly.

If you get what you want, I will quit and abandon this game, losing arguably the only player who logs in every day to pvp.

I am here, every day, helping players, helping newbs, giving advise, I'm out here.

You? Your just spamming up the forums on a game you used to play.


Focus on the topic not the person. Thanks.

I play everyday. Helping players, helping newbs and giving advise, I'm out here.

https://imgur.com/a/xSOokEt

Static
06-13-2020, 03:23 PM
Donkey Crew is a newly established game studio based in the historic city of Wroclaw, Poland. The first donkeys came from small beginnings, originating as a team of diehard modders from the Mount and Blade community. They've since come together from all over the world to make original games that they want to play. Donkey Crew continues to grow, welcoming talented and self-aspiring people to join their tight-knit team.

Donkey Crew is currently developing the first Nomadic Survival MMO: Last Oasis.

This is taken directly from their website.
https://www.donkey.team

Its their first and only game, like you with xsyon.

Static
06-13-2020, 03:25 PM
Focus on the topic not the person. Thanks.

I play everyday. Helping players, helping newbs and giving advise, I'm out here.

Bullshit. I stay logged in 24/7 and I've seen you once on global a few days ago when sark was on, aside of that, I've NEVER seen you speak in global or respond to folks needing help or anything, you are NOT out here, you've quit and abandoned the game a long time ago.. yet your back to continue to derail the game? I wish you stayed quit tbh, we could've been beyond this and moved to the next thing by now, your slowing down development.

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 03:30 PM
Bullshit. I stay logged in 24/7 and I've seen you once on global a few days ago when sark was on, aside of that, I've NEVER seen you speak in global or respond to folks needing help or anything, you are NOT out here, you've quit and abandoned the game a long time ago.. yet your back to continue to derail the game? I wish you stayed quit tbh, we could've been beyond this and moved to the next thing by now, your slowing down development.


Please stop attacking me. I don't know what more you want me to do to prove to you. I put a screenshot in of steam of my hours played in the last 2 weeks.

I've not attacked you once.

I'm focusing on the topic until you clearly just get out of hand like this.

I disagree with you, I believe something you do not. It's done. You have an opinion, I respect you believe that's what's best. I have a different opinion based on my experience with Xsyon and many other PVP games, MMOs, Sandboxes etc.
Also my limited experience that there will be issues with ping in this type of game. So anyone in EU, or AU, or Asia will have major issues. Which is why there would be many servers for games like this.

Static
06-13-2020, 03:38 PM
based on your exp with xsyon... by ruining the game?

I don't know a single person with anything good to say about you or "what you've done for the game" aside of babycakes.

How many people have quit due to you? And you have the balls to speak up now as if you've been a great part of the community instead of a reason people quit?

Dude your level of entitleness is insane, just cuz you've been playing xsyon for a while doesn't make you a expert in combat games.

I've actually worked on games before, this is honestly maddening to watch someone with zero experience like you try to claim to fame over the fact you've been doing everything in your power to push people out of this game.

Someone so uneducated that they think a FPS is the same thing as multi directional twitch melee combat, I don't get why you are even here derailing the post if you have no idea what is going on.

Xsyon
06-13-2020, 04:03 PM
? what are you talking about ?
Both life is feudal and last oasis where made by smaller studios on limited budgets

The team behind Last Oasis has at least 30 developers and the budget to hire at least 10 more. They started off with creators with combat modding experience and use the Unreal Engine which is a huge boost for development. (I wish I had that available when I started Xsyon.)

The team behind Life Is Feudal has at least 90 developers.

Please explain to me how those teams are smaller studios that one person, me.

I am absolutely certain that they are operating on a much larger budget than I am. It would cost me a bare minimum of 1 million per year to maintain a team of 30 developers and this would have to be a remote team without US developers.

I am not saying we can't have decent combat. I am saying to have realistic expectations.

Again I will address the actual suggestions that I can decipher from these rants in another post.

Static
06-13-2020, 04:06 PM
I'm boarderline ready to quit the game.

ddt has made it clear hes only here to harass me and as long as I make suggestions he disagrees with hes going to try his hardest to speak verse me.

He than harassed me in global chat while I asked him to leave me alone.

This is not fun to me.

DDT can have the game, if your really so confused between my legitimate suggestions and this troll ddt than I'm done fighting trying to solve your game.... Try it, try his suggestion and than when it makes the game worse and nothing better happens you can say "damn static was right", but I don't be here to say "I told you so" cuz this is not worth the bullshit to me.

I was legitimately trying to help but if one player who doesn't even play anymore can derail everything I'm saying to the point where it doesn't matter, than why should I try so hard to fix your game when you don't seem to want to fix it yourself.

DDT has made it clear he won't leave me alone in game or on forums and its his lifes goal to make sure that anything I say that he disagrees with is pointed out repeatedly.

I feel like nothing will progress in this game for as long as he is doing this.

I feel like nothing will progress in this game unless I step away and stop offering good suggestions, to let him ruin the game with his bad suggestions so you can actually learn the lesson for yourself instead of avoiding needing to learn it by actually addressing the cores issues.

If you just want to slap a patch on a problem, listen to dtt.

If you want to solve the core problem, listen to me.

I'm done arguing about this, do what you want and I'll stay or quit depending on what you do.

Static
06-13-2020, 04:14 PM
I normally log in 24/7 but ddt wouldn't leave me alone and stop trolling me, so I logged off so he could talk to himself.

I don't play xsyon to be harassed by ddt.

I play xsyon cuz its supposed to be fun.

I'm trying to make combat fun.

Why wouldn't you want to make combat fun? I don't understand the logic behind slapping a patch of "combat skills" ontop of non fun combat is going to suddenly make it more fun without addressing the core issues that make it unfun, but aparently you both have more experience with combat than I do being trained in multiple martial arts and playing very complex combat games you guys have never touched, LOL


The team behind Last Oasis has at least 30 developers and the budget to hire at least 10 more. They started off with creators with combat modding experience and use the Unreal Engine which is a huge boost for development. (I wish I had that available when I started Xsyon.)

The team behind Life Is Feudal has at least 90 developers.

Please explain to me how those teams are smaller studios that one person, me.

I am absolutely certain that they are operating on a much larger budget than I am. It would cost me a bare minimum of 1 million per year to maintain a team of 30 developers and this would have to be a remote team without US developers.

I am not saying we can't have decent combat. I am saying to have realistic expectations.

Again I will address the actual suggestions that I can decipher from these rants in another post.

You said multi-million dollar studios.

This started with a small group of modders.

Yes they CAN hire people to MOVE FASTER, but the CORE GAME CONCEPT was created by a small handful of people. Again, yes they are hiring people to make coding faster, but what does that matter atm when you already have 90% of the game finished? You don't need a army of 30 coders to make this game cuz its already made, this is again a strawman, your not making a game from scratch, you don't need 30-90 coders to deal with SMALL FEATURES like this.

I'm working on VR games that are so far beyond this that it would make your head spin.

So I'm saying this as a "matter of fact" that you could easily have the same combat as last oasis by simply tweaking speed values of animation AND changing creature combat.

One of the solutions that seems EXTREMELY EASY to put into the game to me would be that if a creature if swing'n from the left arm with a normal attack like a bear, than you could mirror the animation so that you also got a swing from the right with the same animation by reversing it.

This way you'd have at least a left swipe and a right swipe. You could than add a lunge and some side movements or circling or attempted dodge of attacks and the creature would feel WAY MORE alive than it is now.

These are all things you can do without needing a million dollars or 30 people to code it, so forgive me when I keep saying you don't need either.

Xsyon
06-13-2020, 07:21 PM
ddt has made it clear hes only here to harass me and as long as I make suggestions he disagrees with hes going to try his hardest to speak verse me.


He than harassed me in global chat while I asked him to leave me alone.


This is not fun to me.

Sorry, but I have to laugh at this. Welcome to the world of PvP conflict.

Do you not realize that with as few players as we have right not you have also been reported many times for harassing people?

You and other PvP players have asked that I don't have Guides or mediators and let players sort out their conflicts on their own, yet so many come crying to me when you become 'the harassed' instead of 'the harasser'.

So duke it out in game or wherever, kill each other in PvP, just keep it off here and I'm not going to babysit War Server chat. lol


This way you'd have at least a left swipe and a right swipe.

Both creatures and players have a left and right swipe attack that can be parried by a left or right parry. In addition players have up and down attacks, again that can be parried by up and down parries.

What you are suggesting as 'easy' is ALREADY IN THE GAME.

This was not easy to implement, but due to the synchronization, implementation, or whatever other reason, you don't even notice that it's in the game.

So, as I was saying, I am doing my best. This is why I don't want anyone to have unreasonable expectations on combat.

Enough with the arguing and insults. You are mostly arguing with yourself as nobody is suggesting most of what you are fighting against. I am primarily asking questions about other combat systems and seek opinions from more than just two players.

Xsyon
06-13-2020, 07:52 PM
Actual suggestions so far:

1) Parry releasing when absorbing a hit.

- I will set this up and let you all know when it's ready for testing.

2) Creatures attack left and right.

- They already do this. I don't know what else to say about it. Are animations too fast to understand what's going on? Or is the synch still too delayed to respond to these directional attacks?

- Players also already have directional attacks and parrys

3) Creatures have special attacks

- I already set up a special noticeably slower attack that does double damage for bears. It was on the Test Server for several weeks, maybe a month and I even stated that players can set up a time with Guides if they want to test this. As I received no feedback on it I turned it off.

- I will turn it on again to see if that is something players want or not. I will let you all know when it's turned on.

4) Special attacks (stun, damage over time) from hot keys / action bar.

- Despite the resistance from Static, I am fine with setting this up and seeing what other players think. I will not turn combat into WoW combat. It would simply add some flavor to the current system which will remain primarily twitch combat.

5) Replacing the charged / swing power attack with the suggested 'power attack.

- I can try this out though I'm doubtful of the outcome. Ultimately, as requested, it will be a simplified version of the current the current charged attack that is slower, does less damage and will be harder to notice when triggered.

6) Creatures can block or parry

- I'll put this on my list but not as a priority. It would be a very time consuming feature for me to implement. (It would take me more time than finishing ranged combat for example).

Am I missing any other actual specific suggestions?

MrDDT
06-13-2020, 08:08 PM
2) Creatures attack left and right.

- They already do this. I don't know what else to say about it. Are animations too fast to understand what's going on? Or is the synch still too delayed to respond to these directional attacks?


3) Creatures have special attacks

- I already set up a special noticeably slower attack that does double damage for bears. It was on the Test Server for several weeks, maybe a month and I even stated that players can set up a time with Guides if they want to test this. As I received no feedback on it I turned it off.

- I will turn it on again to see if that is something players want or not. I will let you all know when it's turned on.

5) Replacing the charged / swing power attack with the suggested 'power attack.

- I can try this out though I'm doubtful of the outcome. Ultimately, as requested, it will be a simplified version of the current the current charged attack that is slower, does less damage and will be harder to notice when triggered.




2)So I was testing this on Test server with 100 parry, and it was not giving me 100% parry even though I was picking the correct direction to parry.
I will do more testing, I did it only for about 6 or so attacks.

3)I never saw special attack them do this, so I can't say. Maybe this was before I came back a few weeks ago.

5) I think this is a major change. Unless power attacks are stronger DPS (which currently at 150% they are not), I wouldnt see much use in it. I do think that the best way to balance this is either put it on a cooldown with higher stamina use but also much higher damage (200% or something), or as Static suggested, make it a special move by doing a slower attack animation, using more stamina, but doing 200% damage.
If you don't add the extra stamina use, then you need to find the balance of DPS slow attack vs DPS long attack.

Liquidblade
06-14-2020, 04:15 AM
1) Adjust swing power. I did this already and could up the damage a bit more. However, the more I boost swing power damage, the more combat relies on charged attacks and again we get the problem that new players (and a lot of player in general) just are looking to click attack as they do in games they are familiar with. - Players will get familiar with the way a game works if they like the game.

2) Remove swing power / charged attacks. - I rely on the power swing for everything, and I have to say that to use it and try to block and parry its a bit of nuisance, however, I like the damage it does, not sure if removing it is the solution, but it could be a start .

3) Replace swing power attacks with special attacks from the action bar / hot key. These could be, for example, a slower attack that does double damage. This worries me. This would make the game similar to so many others that I no longer play, and I keep coming back here because of what I can do in this game and my chances of survival, I have enough stuff on the action bar, why add more?.

From my point of view, the charged attack vs the hot key power attack are very similar. The main differences would be how the action is initiated (through mouse action vs a key) and timing (charged attacks can be done at any time, a power attack should have a cool down like in other games). sounds similar to black desert online?

Here are things that I have worked on and plan to release as part of this patch series:

1) Artisan and Master weapons including bonuses based on specific weapon types such as critical strike and defense (parry) bonuses. I like the idea, need to know more how it will work with the current combat style

2) Ranged combat. like the idea, but I think we need to figure out the current combat issues before adding more "issues to deal with" to combat

As usual, if you have a suggestion that is similar to something in another game, please list the game or games so that I can potentially check it out directly. not sure if you are familiar with the game "dragons dogma" combat style, but it could give you some ideas that may help develop or improve current system

Note: If I missed anything, please post and I will add it to this top post.

Note: Please keep suggestions as concise as possible and the arguments to a minimum. It's taking me a long time to go through these threads (and suggestions) to pick out the actual suggestions. If you keep trying to please us all, you are going to drive your self crazy, stick with your passion, on why you started this game. I understand you are looking for suggestions, and we all can give you advice, so far I see only two people giving advice, in two different ways, you're not going to please both. I could be the person that unbalances this, but I have my own ideas on how combat should work. I know you would like to see more people in this game, but the people are not leaving the game because of combat, I feel they leave because this game is not their cup of tea, the detail on what it takes to create a single brick, people want things the easy way, but they have minecraft for that right?

Static
06-14-2020, 10:42 AM
Sorry, but I have to laugh at this. Welcome to the world of PvP conflict.

Do you not realize that with as few players as we have right not you have also been reported many times for harassing people?

You and other PvP players have asked that I don't have Guides or mediators and let players sort out their conflicts on their own, yet so many come crying to me when you become 'the harassed' instead of 'the harasser'.

So duke it out in game or wherever, kill each other in PvP, just keep it off here and I'm not going to babysit War Server chat. lol



Both creatures and players have a left and right swipe attack that can be parried by a left or right parry. In addition players have up and down attacks, again that can be parried by up and down parries.

What you are suggesting as 'easy' is ALREADY IN THE GAME.

This was not easy to implement, but due to the synchronization, implementation, or whatever other reason, you don't even notice that it's in the game.

So, as I was saying, I am doing my best. This is why I don't want anyone to have unreasonable expectations on combat.

Enough with the arguing and insults. You are mostly arguing with yourself as nobody is suggesting most of what you are fighting against. I am primarily asking questions about other combat systems and seek opinions from more than just two players.

Its cool man, your not paying me anything to help you develop this game so I'm laughing at you for letting this asshole derail us for two weeks while we had previously hashed out parry update in a couple days.

You want to keep giving this guy the time of day and treat me like I'm crazy for trying to help you? I don't NEED to help you develop this game, your not paying me for my experience here.

I'm playing last oasis cuz it seems clear to me that the direction of this game is not going to be combat focused so I'm giving up trying to help you do something you don't want to do or you seem too overwhelmed to do.

The only thing I regret is that I've put too many hours in to get a refund, I honestly didn't expect development to take a total turn in the opposite direction due to ddt being so loud in disagreement that we can't move beyond balancing in two weeks where it took us a couple days to balance previously without him.

Development has been heavily slown down and turned around to the opposite direction.

I no longer wish to play the game if this is the direction its going, I'm sad I put so much effort into this for nothing when I am getting paid to do this otherwise, I gave you free work and your just gona shrug me off to agree with ddt cuz NETHER of you play combat games?

You keep telling me your not a combat programmer, so I try to explain to you how you can do it cuz you seem overwhelmed here claiming bullshit like "I cant do it cuz im not a muli milllion dollar studio" yet you throw away my advise to listen to ddt and turn it into a WoW clone? Holy crap dude, you both deserve each other, when this game dies remember this dividing moment in time as the moment you could've actually fixed your game but instead you decided to throw something ontop of the problem in hopes it solved it....

Like can you even think through what these changes will do before you make them? Thats HALF OF GAME DEVELOPMENT yet you seem unable to process this basic skill; being able to see the future of what your changes will do... Maybe thats the problem with having a solo studio cuz you don't have anyone to bounce ideas off of and double check your ideas... I've been trying to do that for you, but if everything I say is invalid cuz ddt is here than whats the fucking point?

Your not paying me and I'm wasting my time so I may as well fuck off and play a game I actually enjoy playing if this game will never have enjoyable combat.

Static
06-14-2020, 10:58 AM
Black Desert Online is yet another great example of combat.

Slow wind up, fast swing, this is what I've been trying to get you to do, make attacks more visually predictable, atm all attacks are smooth, it feels unnatural.

I could keep going, sharing my expertise that seems invalid here, but it doesn't matter if your going to add WoW skill spam combat so I donno why I'm even bothering to comment when I've logged out and don't intend on logging back in.

MrDDT
06-14-2020, 12:50 PM
Black Desert Online is yet another great example of combat.

Slow wind up, fast swing, this is what I've been trying to get you to do, make attacks more visually predictable, atm all attacks are smooth, it feels unnatural.

I could keep going, sharing my expertise that seems invalid here, but it doesn't matter if your going to add WoW skill spam combat so I donno why I'm even bothering to comment when I've logged out and don't intend on logging back in.

Yes Black Desert Online has great combat. Hotkeys with cooldowns is what I was talking about.

https://youtu.be/xhJFw9aJtaI?t=1354

Static
06-14-2020, 10:19 PM
Yes Black Desert Online has great combat. Hotkeys with cooldowns is what I was talking about.

https://youtu.be/xhJFw9aJtaI?t=1354

? So when I use LO and mount n blade for examples of combat cues its "no thats a horrid idea"

But when talking about BD for combat cues (the same suggestion but with a different example)

NOW you agree with it?

Holy fuck why have you been arguing with me for two weeks than?

Its extremely upsetting for me, someone who is currently working in the gaming industry, to be attempting to offer someone legitimate advise when they say "I'm not a combat programer, I donno what to do or how to balance this" and have someone like ddt derail everything due to their own inability to understand what a example is, Last Oasis, mount n blade, BD those are all EXAMPLES of combat cues done in DIFFERENT WAYS.

I don't care if DDT likes or doesn't like Last oasis or mount n blade or BD, they where legitimate examples of combat cues and better swing mechanics than are currently in xsyon... And since my suggestion was to focus on combat cues and swing mechanics, while jordi was asking for example in other games, this made all 3 of these games VALID EXAMPLES that we could take combat cues and swing mechanic CONCEPTS from... as in, jordi is not a combat programer, hes not aware of concepts or even the workflow of combat.... I've worked with combat programmers on my team and have worked on balancing before... thats why I was able to throw together a quick list of balances based on your requirements so quickly once I had all the data... I'm legitimate trying to help by donating my time here when I am normally paid for this otherwise, so forgive me if I'm upset with the fact I'm spending more time arguing with ddt's inability to understand what I'm saying than actually adding to the development to the game... thats why I said I should step away cuz this is going nowhere.. but I also don't want to see the loudest asshole be the person you listen to so I honestly hope you can see that the possibly harder path is better here.. yes it would be easier to slap some special skills on the game and claim it makes it better, but it won't change how every other aspect of combat feels so you will still eventually need to do that, unless you intend to leave it in this unfun state... but I don't think your trying to make a game that is unfun... so I'm trying to help you make things more fun, parry update has already been a huge step in the right direction of making combat more interactive.. thats the point, more interactive, adding special skills isn't going to solve the creature interaction problem or the player swing animation problem or balance combat.

Like if we had a special skill that let us climb a cliff, that sounds awesome. (its a action you cant do otherwise)

Like if we had a special skill that lets you chop down a tree, that sounds awesome. (yes im aware its in the game already, but its a action, not a attack)

A special skill that lets you stun or bleed someone when ddt can already 2 hit 95% of the player population, making it so nobody on the entire server could fight him? That sounds insanely unbalanced.

At that point skill no longer matters and its whoever has highest stats... seems obvious why ddt wants it.

Alot of Last Oasis players I'm talking to, really dislike the fact the oasis burns up in a week, this means that there is no way really to keep your tribe/buildings from week to week... Alot of players I've talked to would love to play a game with combat close to this with multi directional twitch combat that is skill based like LO or mount n blade or BD or life is feudal ect the list goes on, but in a world where they can keep things going for longer than a week... Honestly every time I hear people COMPLAIN about Last Oasis on their discord I can't help but think "if xsyon finished its combat, this would be the game they are looking for.. but since its not.. its not the game they are looking for"

MrDDT
06-14-2020, 10:47 PM
? So when I use LO and mount n blade for examples of combat cues its "no thats a horrid idea"

But when talking about BD for combat cues (the same suggestion but with a different example)

NOW you agree with it?


Black Desert is a lot more to it's combat than combat cues. It also has hotkey skills like WOW does. So it is mixed directional attacks and cues with special skills.
This is what I want, and I said as much.

So yes, I agree Black Desert's combat would be great in Xsyon. However, I do not think he can code/animate all the stuff BD has. I do think he can have some good WOW style combat skills like I said, with directional combat.

Having Last Oasis's combat system is very basic. Its 3 directions, with 3 directional blocking. Is it skillful? Yes, but its basic and boring. Which is why I want to add some flavor to it.

The people you are talking about in Last Oasis they want PVP focus'd game. Sieges, Clan Wars, Contested areas, mounted combat. Ranged attacks. Healing postions etc etc.
These things can be done in Xsyon, but as Xsyon has said many times. This game is not going to be combat focused. Those systems take a LONG time to code and test.

Why can't we have flavored, fun, interactive combat like Black Desert first. Then maybe down the road after months+ we can add in some PVP stuff.
Lets have creatures have special moves first. Lets have mounts. Lets have things like bandages. These things are fun for both PVP and PVE. Also the Last Oasis type of players want that also.