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Blue Pig
05-24-2010, 04:12 AM
After being in the game for a few hours I see that this stage of testing resembles Alpha more than Beta, so if I'm going to test the game for "free" for the next 6 months to a year I'm going to want to play the "finished" product the way "I" want to play it. If I can't, I'd appreciate the developers telling me so I can spend my time differently.

And how do "I" like to play? I like to play a successful game that has staying power and long term appeal for the "majority" of players. No Unrestricted Open PvP game has yet been successful, and no Unrestricted Open PvP game will ever be successful.

What do I mean by success? A game can be a financial success and still suck. STO is a prime example of a game that is a huge financial success and is also one of the worst MMOs out there. Why? Cryptic is great at lying and Star Trek fans don't know when to cut their losses. It's not an Unrestriceted Open PvP game, btw.

EVE-Online (a Semi-Unrestricted Open PvP game) spends a lot on advertizing to make up for the players that leave (and I sold 3 five-year-old accounts so that helps the game have staying power as well). It's a niche game that will fizzle out in two more years. Tredo made a post about it here:

http://xsyon.com/forums/30-prelude-talk/22940-a-lesson-well-learned#22947

and his reference is the following review of EVE by a player:

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Mopar63/082008/6146_Why-EVE-No-More

I agree with that review 100%.


Eve is a PvP game where there is Unrestricted Open PvP in most areas (generally speaking). There is safe space and usually people would be foolish to try to kill you there, but they can, so there really is no absolutely safe space (therefore it's an Unrestricted Open PVP game at its core). But EVE safe space was good enough for me. As it is, to get the better ores you have to leave safe space, and when you do, you'd better have an armada. Tredo's link to the review explains it.

Dark Age of Camelot is, of course (minus the mez spells and the hacks) the best type of PvP game--RvR in a Frontier Zone. That game is still around (since 2001), and for good reason.

Darkfall has a low population as far as I can see (under 10k players and probably much, much less). I can understand why. Unrestricted Open PvP. While being near your starting area grants you good protection, your newbie fighting areas, where you get your fighting skills up, are often camped by friends and foes alike, usually on the weekends (as I said, it's a low population game for good reason).

One day I decided to get some mediocre "but for me, expensive" gear and fight the goblins just outside the fort but beyond the range of the towers. Now I had been killed before, but it was by reds and they were enemies (of my race and allies). Meh, okay. No big loss. But this time I paid a pretty penny (for me) for gear. I went to the goblins and was killed by an ally helping his buddy level. I thought it was cheesy, but okay, it happens. I went back and behold, he had taken my crappy but "expensive to me" gear. I asked him why. He said it was for his newbie friend. Mind you, this was an ally (me elf--him dwarf). We bantered back and forth, I didn't whine and laughed about it, and he came into town and made me even better gear. Hey, nice. Great.

But you know what, apart from the awful grind that DF is, I realized that this would be a common occurrence (minus the nice guy giving me the gear back). This would happen over and over, just mindless griefing for no reason and with no great consequences, so I decided I'd let them grief someone else. It wasn't a rage quit. It was a logical decision not to continue playing a bad game.

How would you like to go out, get killed, go out, get killed, go out... and so forth? I don't like that. I came to play a reasonable game, not be a punching bag for someone 80 times my level who is too afraid to fight characters his own level. While there are no levels in DF, I'm sure you get my meaning.

And how do I define Unrestricted Open PvP? It's a game that griefers flock to. It's a game where any player, usually the type that likes to kill for mindless fun (his fun) does exactly that, and suffers no meaningful penalty, if any. In the process he ruins the other player's gaming experience and that player usually quits. That's just bad game design. That's a failure of a game before it even starts.

How does this relate to Xsyon? Xsyon is a "building" game. People will build structures, roads and so forth. But it will be a low population game for some time. I go to sleep. People in my tribe will go to sleep (irl). How do we defend in an online game when we're asleep? Let's take a look at WURM (I'm currently playing that as well). Crappy animations (if you can call them that) but a reasonable Semi-Open PvP system (as I call it). As you build your town, or whatever you want to call it, you can build towers that spawn powerful guards that defend the town. As you expand, you can build more towers. Now these guards aren't omnipotent. A large enough force can defeat them. But I'm happy that it deters aggression enough to have the enemy think and plan very hard if they want to attack. Notice the words think and plan as opposed to mindless and meaningless. Also, it simulates the innate advantage a defender would have in an area he knows better than the attacker.

And if you're a student of paleoarchaeology, you know that our ancestors of 170,000 years ago to 12,000 years ago depended on cooperation and shared information. They would have been stupid to kill one another or even attempt it. And for the most part, they didn't. Cooperation worked better, and killing someone else just wasn't worth the risk. It's only when population levels rose dramatically and large groups of people occupied relatively small areas did warfare come into fashion (about 10,000 to 5,000 years ago). This post-apocalyptic game simulates a small population and small bands of people, but I digress to a degree.

Of course, I don't know what plan the developers have. I know they've thought about the options they have. They can have a mediocre game that's a moderate finacncial success. That may be all they want out of this game. Or they could fail. Such is life. They might want to make the game as they see fit regardless of consequences (financial and gamewise). That's their option. It's all okay. Obviously, we all want them to make a good game and we all assume they want to make a good game.

A good game doesn't have Unrestricted Open PvP. The game would deteriorate into a gankfest. A good game doesn't allow an ally to kill you without a penalty (The Eternal City just threw you in jail for some hours if you attacked someone in a protected area--and if you killed them without a good reason in another area, your character was perma killed by the developer after you stood trial).

Why do good games have these protection features? Because there will always be some person with his finger up his nose that likes to cause other people misery. I don't know why they do it. Maybe they have a small member, surely they have a small brain with not much thought going on. They just can't help themselves. Oh look, I can kill someone... chaaarge! No mind, plain and simple.

And because good games protect against this type of nonsense (read "non-sense", "no point"), they are more likely to thrive. They may not thrive forever, but they last for years and they do so with relatively large populations. It makes good business sense.

Of course, perhaps some of the developers want to play the game themselves and they prefer Unrestricted Open PvP. Or they have their own vision. That's all okay too.

However, if that's the case, if the developers intend to make this Unrestricted Open PvP with no meaningful PvP and no meaningful consequences for "grief" attacks, then I'd like them to let me know now so I don't waste my time. I'd like to know the plan. That's not much to ask for.

IakXastur
05-24-2010, 06:39 AM
Supposedly there is going to be a system implemented where pk'ing is detrimental to the pk'er. I can't remember the slightest details right now...but I'd suggest reading some of the PVP threads

Blue Pig
05-24-2010, 08:27 AM
IakXastur wrote:

Supposedly there is going to be a system implemented where pk'ing is detrimental to the pk'er. I can't remember the slightest details right now...but I'd suggest reading some of the PVP threads

Yes, I've read those. There appears to be vauge information that suggests what you describe. I'll reread them. It's also possible that the developers consider the PvP options to be "flexible" at this stage of the game, with room to be modified as they see fit.

I think it's sadly reflective of our culture that we play games where seeking to kill another person (character) is considered "good form" and "part of the game". There are other ways games can simulate dominance and encourage long range thinking and planning as well. The threat of death has more influence many times (irl) than death itself.

Essentially, I'm hoping this will be more of a thinking game than a "charge!" game. That's not to say armed conflict shouldn't be included. By all means it should be included, as that mirrors the nastier part of human nature (sadly). It just shouldn't be an hourly occurrence. Hopefully the players will be able to police "antisocial" behavior, but there will have to be some game mechanic in place that will give that "meaning". Capturing the criminal and permanently executing the character would be realistic. So would some very lengthy jail time. Or something in between.

Looking at the "animal" world, no other species fights to the death over mating rights or territory (although chimps have been known to murder, and male lions have a nasty habit of eating their young). That's because fighting to the death is a waste of energy. The victor is known long before any death has to occur, and the vanquished retreats.

Cunk
05-24-2010, 10:44 AM
That's alotta words but I generally agree with what you're saying (except the part about EVE fizzling out in 2 years).

But your subject says "wurm-like PK protection". Are you talking about Wurm's non-PVP server where players can't attack each other at all? I assume you must be because there is no PK protection on Wild. I have a feeling Xsyon will be more like Wild server on Wurm.

pid73
05-24-2010, 10:57 AM
I don't remember the post but Virtus stated that Jordi definitely will not allow this game to be a gankfest. Many DF fanbois came over here when it was clear that MO was about to fail. They QQ long and hard but to no avail, there will be PvP but not meaningless (most probably it will be for resources) and not mindless (there will be consequences).

Now, the details are all undisclosed (we the players don't know, yet) and maybe even undefined (the devs themselves don't know either). I don't know which of the two, but I'm here giving my advice on what should be avoided and what could be attempted.

Stay with us and continue that way, your post was very constructive and well written, something always welcome on these forums.

Dark515
05-24-2010, 11:03 AM
I came from DF, and I for one think it was too out of control. You could barely fight in any spawns near NPC cities for any medium length of time without danger of getting ganked.

It would be nice to see a lot less random/meaningless PvP in a game.

jessebfox
05-24-2010, 11:08 AM
Keep in mind a "bad" game to you is a "good" game to others. If you subscribe to the line of thought that the more people that like it makes it "better", then Britney spears was a great great singer.

I think they are trying to make this a "great" game in Jordi's eyes. I know he is definitely open to suggestion as long as the game ends up in the vision he has.

Relandi
05-24-2010, 11:49 AM
jessebfox wrote:

Keep in mind a "bad" game to you is a "good" game to others. If you subscribe to the line of thought that the more people that like it makes it "better" than Britney spears was a great great singer.

I think they are trying to make this a "great" game in Jordi's eyes. I know he is definitely open to suggestion as long as the game ends up in the vision he has.

This seems about right.

As for the comments on PvP, I'd think the PvP is far more likely to be over area control (in later days) and politics than resources - as there really doesn't seem to be "limited" resources. Junk Piles rarely run out, and when they do, they re-pop with-in minutes, this only thing I could see if trees run out because as far as I can tell, they don't grow back currently.

EDIT: Open PvP is here to stay, though, OP - we've been down this road, Jooky is set.

Zarma
05-24-2010, 11:51 AM
tl;dr

But I did the read the start, and you have a warped perspective of a game that hasn't failed. Because you think it fails doesn't mean it does, and the fact that they're getting a lot of money supports the idea that a lot of people like it and that you're just one of the many that don't.

icarus39
05-24-2010, 12:24 PM
I'd like to see the PK system set up like Meridian 59.

All players had a white name, meaning they were innocents. If an innocent attacked another innocent without killing them, their name turned to orange, and they were labelled an outlaw. The consequence was simple, one you died one time as an outlaw, you were returned to innocent status.

However, if you ever outright killed an innocent player, you were considered a murderer, and your name turned to red. A murder could be killed on site with no consequence to the attacker, and the murder would not return to innocent status, unless a Justicar pardonned him/her.

I left a lot up to the community, while being a PKer was still entertaining, it was dangerous and carried heavier consquences than just flat out griefing.

Cunk
05-24-2010, 12:43 PM
icarus39 wrote:

I'd like to see the PK system set up like Meridian 59.

All players had a white name, meaning they were innocents. If an innocent attacked another innocent without killing them, their name turned to orange, and they were labelled an outlaw. The consequence was simple, one you died one time as an outlaw, you were returned to innocent status.

However, if you ever outright killed an innocent player, you were considered a murderer, and your name turned to red. A murder could be killed on site with no consequence to the attacker, and the murder would not return to innocent status, unless a Justicar pardonned him/her.

I left a lot up to the community, while being a PKer was still entertaining, it was dangerous and carried heavier consquences than just flat out griefing.Even though I never played Ultima Online what you describe sounds pretty much like how I've heard it's done in that game. And in nearly every game that takes inspiration from it (like Mortal Online). Even EVE has an outlaw system where players with a low enough security rating are fair game in what is normally safe space.

Blue Pig
05-24-2010, 12:59 PM
Cunk wrote:

That's alotta words but I generally agree with what you're saying (except the part about EVE fizzling out in 2 years).

But your subject says "wurm-like PK protection". Are you talking about Wurm's non-PVP server where players can't attack each other at all? I assume you must be because there is no PK protection on Wild. I have a feeling Xsyon will be more like Wild server on Wurm.


There are a lot more words in a book :)

I meant the Wild Servers. Well built core towns are difficult to attack without good coordination. I was just using their towers and guards as an example.

Ciik
05-24-2010, 02:02 PM
Me too. I want to play the game I want to play to. Many of us have expectations. And if this is the demanding or outreach thread, I'll make a case for a reasonable model.

Controlled progressive open PvP like EvE. Not only has it progressed to one of the most successful indie games in the market over 7 years, it holds as large if not large and more consistent player-base than many "A" mature studio mmorpgs. So it isn't dying in the next 2-years, and its studio is able to use its success to branch into other development avenues.

Sure, EvE is exponentially more successful than A Tale in the Desert, Roma Victor and Wurm in the indie universe; way more successful. EvE is by far a better template than Wurm when it comes to player interactivity and player vs player mechanics; the market tells us it's so. And to suggest EvE is going to die out after 2 years is silly.

So yet with a bare-bones game, CCP managed to eventually grow and Prosper (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4489/the_icelandic_model_of_mmo_.php). Why? It wasn't a matter of pure random luck. EVE as it was released was a mostly-empty sandbox, where the focus of the endgame was on player conflicts not presided over by the devs.

As an Indie fan, I'm glad to see more games like the aforementioned, and the more sandboxy the better. The more well-implemented sandboxy for an Indie, the more attractive it is to a more loyal and larger fan-base, imho.

Dark Age of Camelot is a very restrictive RvR game, and so is WAR. WAR, another controlled, pigeon-holed PvP experience that failed to sustain an initial audience due to the shallow nature of its shoe-box RvR, not to mention its been sheer lack of anything appealing, leading to it's hemorrhaging subscriptions ever since it launched. So a tightly controlled RvR design like WAR is a bad example to use against pvp imho since its endgame has shown to crash and burn shortly after launch.

So, yes, a sandboxy game doesnt have to be all about PvP and we've seen that, and it doesnt have to be ffa no consequence pvp, but a better Indie game does have progressively unrestricted open PvP and areas of calm; with the areas of calm and safety that doesn't demean the progressive games sandboxy player-centric value, but accentuates it without over-running it.

So I call for the Case For an Icelandic Model (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4489/the_icelandic_model_of_mmo_.php). A successful model proven to lead to a process of iterative organic growth within the game; incrementally.

Rather than take the tired design route of another PvE-centric or DAoC RvR platform, CCP's goal was rather to find a niche and expand it slowly; they win and their Icelandic Business Model wins.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4489/the_icelandic_model_of_mmo_.php

If the developers intend to make this an overly restricted and confining PvE or RvR themepark I'd like them to let me know now so I don't waste my time either.

Cunk
05-24-2010, 02:45 PM
Blue Pig wrote:

Cunk wrote:

That's alotta words but I generally agree with what you're saying (except the part about EVE fizzling out in 2 years).

But your subject says "wurm-like PK protection". Are you talking about Wurm's non-PVP server where players can't attack each other at all? I assume you must be because there is no PK protection on Wild. I have a feeling Xsyon will be more like Wild server on Wurm.


There are a lot more words in a book :)
Yeah well you're not writing a book.


I meant the Wild Servers. Well built core towns are difficult to attack without good coordination. I was just using their towers and guards as an example.
Wurm also has an advantage in that the map is much harder to navigate than Xsyon. Not only is the map (currently) larger in Wurm but the terrain pretty much governs how players travel. So if you want to isolate yourself from the PVP you can do that fairly by choosing your spot wisely.

Likewise with EVE. EVE is thrown up as an example of how to properly do a mostly unrestricted PVP game but EVE has a number of design features unique to its setting that are key to its ability to do that. You simply can't expect to achieve what EVE has done in a game world where players are free to tread anywhere they like.

Anyone who's played in 0.0 space in EVE knows what it's like to navigate up the "pipe" to Empire space. You know the gates that hostiles like to camp. You know to set up safe spots that you can warp to if you get into trouble and scanning locations close to but out of sight of gates. You know how to look at the star map and look for red blobs on the "ships destroyed in the last hour" view. You know how to find alternative routes to get around hot spots.

I don't see a ground-based game, at least one that doesn't place heavy restrictions on where you can go, being able to replicate all that.

Veldern
05-24-2010, 04:12 PM
Starting out your post with how you're testing for free and you want it your way or you're out doesn't sit well with me. For one, you don't have to be a tester unless you "want" to be a "free" tester. I for one enjoy it. Secondly, we've talked about this a hundred times in the past. Just use search and try and find anything posted by the user Kunra :P

BLinDDeniaL
05-24-2010, 04:24 PM
Ciik wrote:

Me too. I want to play the game I want to play to. Many of us have expectations. And if this is the demanding or outreach thread, I'll make a case for a reasonable model.

Controlled progressive open PvP like EvE. Not only has it progressed to one of the most successful indie games in the market over 7 years, it holds as large if not large and more consistent player-base than many "A" mature studio mmorpgs. So it isn't dying in the next 2-years, and its studio is able to use its success to branch into other development avenues.

Sure, EvE is exponentially more successful than A Tale in the Desert, Roma Victor and Wurm in the indie universe; way more successful. EvE is by far a better template than Wurm when it comes to player interactivity and player vs player mechanics; the market tells us it's so. And to suggest EvE is going to die out after 2 years is silly.

So yet with a bare-bones game, CCP managed to eventually grow and Prosper (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4489/the_icelandic_model_of_mmo_.php). Why? It wasn't a matter of pure random luck. EVE as it was released was a mostly-empty sandbox, where the focus of the endgame was on player conflicts not presided over by the devs.

As an Indie fan, I'm glad to see more games like the aforementioned, and the more sandboxy the better. The more well-implemented sandboxy for an Indie, the more attractive it is to a more loyal and larger fan-base, imho.

Dark Age of Camelot is a very restrictive RvR game, and so is WAR. WAR, another controlled, pigeon-holed PvP experience that failed to sustain an initial audience due to the shallow nature of its shoe-box RvR, not to mention its been sheer lack of anything appealing, leading to it's hemorrhaging subscriptions ever since it launched. So a tightly controlled RvR design like WAR is a bad example to use against pvp imho since its endgame has shown to crash and burn shortly after launch.

So, yes, a sandboxy game doesnt have to be all about PvP and we've seen that, and it doesnt have to be ffa no consequence pvp, but a better Indie game does have progressively unrestricted open PvP and areas of calm; with the areas of calm and safety that doesn't demean the progressive games sandboxy player-centric value, but accentuates it without over-running it.

So I call for the Case For an Icelandic Model (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4489/the_icelandic_model_of_mmo_.php). A successful model proven to lead to a process of iterative organic growth within the game; incrementally.

Rather than take the tired design route of another PvE-centric or DAoC RvR platform, CCP's goal was rather to find a niche and expand it slowly; they win and their Icelandic Business Model wins.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4489/the_icelandic_model_of_mmo_.php

If the developers intend to make this an overly restricted and confining PvE or RvR themepark I'd like them to let me know now so I don't waste my time either.

This...

Imo this is a more logical post than the OP's one - however the OP has a point though.

I just don't agree with the way he made it :)

Jadzia
05-24-2010, 04:32 PM
All the OP was asking for was information. I agree with him. The situation has changed, the launch got delayed, and early access became a closed beta test. I have no problem with that, but I can understand if someone doesn't want to waste his time on testing a game that at the end could turn out something he doesn't like.

It would be nice to get some official information about the future plans...otherwise its impossible to avoid the disappointment of a part of the playerbase. In my opinion its not a good idea to hide basic features from the players, and I don't see the reason why can't we know how the game will work after Prelude, especially town attacks and tribe wars.

For the OP:
Jordi stated several times that the game won't allow ganking-griefing, and killing a good or neutral player will have severe consequences.
It would be nice to get more details about these consequences.

Boondox
05-24-2010, 07:29 PM
so what about a game that had open pvp then changed to restricted pvp and became a failure like UO(Ultima Online). when trammel was added in everyone flocked to trammel where it was safe and pvp basicly died out.

sicarius
05-24-2010, 09:32 PM
pid73 wrote:

I don't remember the post but Virtus stated that Jordi definitely will not allow this game to be a gankfest. Many DF fanbois came over here when it was clear that MO was about to fail. They QQ long and hard but to no avail, there will be PvP but not meaningless (most probably it will be for resources) and not mindless (there will be consequences).

Lol, I guess you could sort of consider me a DF fan boy though I quit some time ago. I though wanted df to have a system something more akin to this however, where PVP was for a purpose and had rewards and deterrents, however this didnt happen. SO hopefully the Dev team will make pvp more of a only in necessity, instead of a, im doing this because I don't want to grind.

Veldern
05-24-2010, 10:04 PM
sicarius wrote:

Lol, I guess you could sort of consider me a DF fan boy though I quit some time ago. I though wanted df to have a system something more akin to this however, where PVP was for a purpose and had rewards and deterrents, however this didnt happen. SO hopefully the Dev team will make pvp more of a only in necessity, instead of a, im doing this because I don't want to grind. This very closely represents my own pvp ideals... and what I was hoping for in DF as well lol.

frogeye
05-25-2010, 12:48 AM
I agree totally that XSYON should be - in my eyes - a more constructive and playing-together game to make 'sense' through seeing things grow. If I'm watching the tribe-list that seems to be, besides some few, the main goal of them too.
For myself I have to say that I'm tired of all those PVP games, they are just a waste of time und there is no end in the blood-circle. Even outlaws in 'red' aren't made wise and continue their silly path, making it neccessary to always watch over my shoulder, to buy protecting-stuff not to loose points. In a game where there is no sense than killing mobs this may be okay though, because 'fighting' is the essential thing there on this or that way.
In a game where building cities and communities and an infrastructure is the main part that would be annoying just like in real world where you want to build a house and concentrate on this job and you have to carry a shotgun always with you....
On the other side I know that the existence of the risk that you possibly are attacked and that there are enemies either NPCs or humans gives the whole something prickling, what is keeping you 'awake' ;). So I have no idea if there is THE path to how should PVP be implemented.
One thing is clear to conclude: If 'constructing' players are forced to begin again and again from scratch they will leave the game very fast and you stand there with just-another-boring-mmorpg-like-all-the-others.

Blue Pig
05-25-2010, 06:30 AM
Veldern wrote:

Starting out your post with how you're testing for free and you want it your way or you're out doesn't sit well with me. For one, you don't have to be a tester unless you "want" to be a "free" tester. I for one enjoy it. Secondly, we've talked about this a hundred times in the past. Just use search and try and find anything posted by the user Kunra :P

Would you rather I lied? Would that have sat better with you? You know what doesn't sit well with me? And remember, you brought it up. 4/15 then 5/15 then 6/15 and now 8/15 and I guarantee it will be moved back again and they have my money. That really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That doesn't sit well with me. You know, people get paid for testing an Alpha game. Where's my weekly or monthly check? Why did I give some people $40 to work for them, probably for six months to a year? You enjoy that? Good. After this you can come and work for free for me for a year or so. How does that sit with you?

Also, comprehension is just as important as being able to read. Kindly don't warp what I said and imply I'm trying to change the game. I was asking for information.

You've talked about it a hundred times? Great. Volunteer to organize the forums better because I sure can't find anything except speculation by other people.

I do thank you for the name. I'll look it up.

Blue Pig
05-25-2010, 09:05 AM
Boondox wrote:

so what about a game that had open pvp then changed to restricted pvp and became a failure like UO(Ultima Online). when trammel was added in everyone flocked to trammel where it was safe and pvp basicly died out.

If everyone flocked to Trammel, that's a hint and a half that "everyone" didn't want gankfest PvP, no? UO was the first true MMO to come out. It had no competition. It didn't fail because Trammel was put in. If everyone went there, then the population just moved. How would that cause the game to fail or die? You want to know why UO died out? EverQuest : competition from a PvE game. That and the fact that, if you go back and play it now, UO is essentially a crappy game. But even a crappy "first of it's kind" game can be a great initial success.

I must say that EQ (after the first month or two) was the most boring timesink I've ever played. Ever. Brad McQuaid was a clever and sadistic/malicious "so and so." Essentially, he made a game that simulated fun, instead of making a game that actually was fun to play. Bigger and bigger bats. A tired model that other developers still follow. However, I will say that the best feature of EQ was that in a good group you actually could have a lot of fun.

DAoC, "the very restrictive" PvP--RvR game ;) was a huge success. Huge. That's another hint and a half. However, I absolutely hated the Mez spell (and left after the game was hacked). I don't know what genius thought that having a player lose control of his character for any amount of time, much less 10 seconds or so, would be considered fun (the effects of the Mez spell). This mistake was repeated most recently by STO with its idiotic Viral Matrix and Sub Neucleonic Beam abilities, or spells as I call them. SNB could be made to last 40-45 seconds with the right build. Great fun, that was (watching helplessly for 40 or so seconds as you get blow up--in their PvP game--I played Klingon). But then STO was doomed (as a game) as soon as Cryptic acquired the rights to make it from bankrupt Perpetual Studios.

I'll say what I did like about DAoC. Auto face and auto attack. This is why. I don't have the reflexes of a jet fighter pilot. Some people do or come close to it. More generically, some people just do better at PvP because they have faster reflexes (and probably think situationally faster) than others. That will always be the case. Some people will just be significantly better than others at PvP. And there's nothing wrong with games that attract these players. I avoid these games since I'm either not as good as they are, or don't want to devote my time practicing PvP. Mostly the former, though.

I like to play fantasy MMOs like the ones mentioned above. The key word here is fantasy. In real life I don't jump around and maneuever my body as I kill real people with knives and spells. I just shoot them (just kidding, lol, I use a big club with nails). So when I play a fantasy game, I expect the character I pick to have those abilities, not me. In the game that I play, I expect my character to have to ability to follow and face his opponent. That's why I picked a particular character and adjusted his stats. Now I do expect that I should have some proficiency with the mouse and keyboard; I do have to pick attacks, or spells and initially engage another character. I'm not saying that I want my character to fight my fights for me, but I would like to level the playing field and at least have my character be able to face and follow my opponent. That's what DAoC offered. A level playing field. People better at PvP than others would consider that a "restrictive" PvP game, since they ordinarily would be able to disengage and out maneuever the average opponent. And they are free to play other games that have the features they want.

I, for one, am not going to bet money and play pool, or golf, with someone better than I am. That would be silly. I'd expect a handicap if I even decided to play. These same people who are good/great at PvP would be QQing if they had to play against me for money in some game (I have one in mind) where I had a permanent advantage. Where they would never get better. Where I would always win. And I would agree with them. Why should they play against me when I beat them all the time? What fun is that? On top of their losing money.

MMOs are much the same. I play for entertainment. I play because sometimes I win, and sometimes I lose, but I don't play when I always lose. What fun is that?

Now this game will be what it will be. Some people will love it, some people might not be so fond of it. As with other MMOs, one can choose to play it, or skip over it. Lobbying for a game to have overall appeal is one thing. Lobbying for a game to change so that "you" win all the time against the majority of players is just bad form.



EVE-Online. After a massive and still continuing ad campaign they are up to 300,000 subscribers? About that, right? That's actually very good. Will it hold? I think that depends on CCP. I think it won't, but we'll see.

Blizzard/WoW. Brand name appeal with minimal advertising. 5-10 million subscribers? I lost count. About that, right? If you were a developer and business person, which game would you rather have made? And while EVE-Online does have Unrestricted PvP at it's core, that is blunted by safe space. No one ever attacked my Apocalypse in safe space. Suicide.

For the record, I didn't particularly care for WoW as I didn't particularly care for any MMO yet made. Most of them intrigued me at first, but then it was the same old, same old.

That's why we're all here.

Largion
05-25-2010, 09:22 AM
So games change and you play for fun.

Blue Pig That was 1 big post saying something you could have said in 2 sentences.

Blue Pig
05-25-2010, 09:36 AM
Largion wrote:

So games change and you play for fun.

Blue Pig That was 1 big post saying something you could have said in 2 sentences.

You missed the part where there was thought :P

If you have something against reading you can skip reading my posts. I don't mind.

Blue Pig
05-25-2010, 09:50 AM
Cunk wrote:

Wurm also has an advantage in that the map is much harder to navigate than Xsyon. Not only is the map (currently) larger in Wurm but the terrain pretty much governs how players travel. So if you want to isolate yourself from the PVP you can do that fairly by choosing your spot wisely.

Food and eating, along with drinking water will play a large part in Xsyon. As you say, the Xsyon map isn't that big yet. However, since this seems like a game that simulates small bands or tribes, it reminds me that pre agrarian hunter-gatherers followed animal migrations and had to move when water dried up. What if (on a larger map) animals migrated and water dried up? Just a thought.

Veldern
05-25-2010, 11:45 AM
Blue Pig wrote:

Would you rather I lied? Would that have sat better with you? You know what doesn't sit well with me? And remember, you brought it up. 4/15 then 5/15 then 6/15 and now 8/15 and I guarantee it will be moved back again and they have my money. That really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That doesn't sit well with me. You know, people get paid for testing an Alpha game. Where's my weekly or monthly check? Why did I give some people $40 to work for them, probably for six months to a year? You enjoy that? Good. After this you can come and work for free for me for a year or so. How does that sit with you?

Also, comprehension is just as important as being able to read. Kindly don't warp what I said and imply I'm trying to change the game. I was asking for information.

You've talked about it a hundred times? Great. Volunteer to organize the forums better because I sure can't find anything except speculation by other people.

I do thank you for the name. I'll look it up. It may be pushed back again, it may not. Either way, you don't "HAVE" to test it. If you feel you should get paid for it, then DON'T DO IT. You have the option of this, where as people who get paid have to do it or they don't get paid. If it doesn't sit well with you, you can always ask for a refund, they have given out some already. I don't know why, but you seem to think that you're required to test this game which simply isn't the case. As I said before, if you don't like it don't do it. The terraform is fun for me, so I do it. If you have a job that I enjoy doing in my free time, ya I'll do it for free too.

If you're just asking for information, then there is no reason to post your own views on it while threatening to quit if it's not like that.

Here is some info I found in a couple of minutes, put all the info you can from the admins/mods together if you wish.

http://xsyon.com/forums/28-features/232-conflict-death-consequences-and-decisions#232

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/30-prelude-talk/20586-open-world-pvp-option

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/8-off-topic/16083-very-long-4-questions-for-jooky (Questions 2-4)

http://www.xsyon.com/faq (Number 11)

BLinDDeniaL
05-25-2010, 12:59 PM
Veldern wrote:

Blue Pig wrote:

Would you rather I lied? Would that have sat better with you? You know what doesn't sit well with me? And remember, you brought it up. 4/15 then 5/15 then 6/15 and now 8/15 and I guarantee it will be moved back again and they have my money. That really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That doesn't sit well with me. You know, people get paid for testing an Alpha game. Where's my weekly or monthly check? Why did I give some people $40 to work for them, probably for six months to a year? You enjoy that? Good. After this you can come and work for free for me for a year or so. How does that sit with you?

Also, comprehension is just as important as being able to read. Kindly don't warp what I said and imply I'm trying to change the game. I was asking for information.

You've talked about it a hundred times? Great. Volunteer to organize the forums better because I sure can't find anything except speculation by other people.

I do thank you for the name. I'll look it up. It may be pushed back again, it may not. Either way, you don't "HAVE" to test it. If you feel you should get paid for it, then DON'T DO IT. You have the option of this, where as people who get paid have to do it or they don't get paid. If it doesn't sit well with you, you can always ask for a refund, they have given out some already. I don't know why, but you seem to think that you're required to test this game which simply isn't the case. As I said before, if you don't like it don't do it. The terraform is fun for me, so I do it. If you have a job that I enjoy doing in my free time, ya I'll do it for free too.

If you're just asking for information, then there is no reason to post your own views on it while threatening to quit if it's not like that.

Here is some info I found in a couple of minutes, put all the info you can from the admins/mods together if you wish.

http://xsyon.com/forums/28-features/232-conflict-death-consequences-and-decisions#232

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/30-prelude-talk/20586-open-world-pvp-option

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/8-off-topic/16083-very-long-4-questions-for-jooky (Questions 2-4)

http://www.xsyon.com/faq (Number 11)

I whole Heartidly agree with Veldern...

This post started as an informative discussion about pvp and ideals/thoughts about it, but has now turned into a QQ post...

If you are so upset about the state of the game and fear that it will not cater for your play style or be your gaming holy grail, then why not ask for a refund and go play some other game which will make you happy in the meantime? If you are then still interested in Xsyon, then keep an eye on its developments. That way when it IS released you will know full well what you are getting yourself into.

We don't need another QQ post where someone states Xsyon is bad because of XXXXXXX... The community that is here understands what the devs are going through and is supportive of their decisions as well as looking forward to the finished product.

Therefore to all people who are unhappy at this stage, why not get a refund and leave? No one is forcing you to stay and that would also mean less QQ for us to read...

Blue Pig
05-25-2010, 07:08 PM
Veldern wrote:

Blue Pig wrote:

Would you rather I lied? Would that have sat better with you? You know what doesn't sit well with me? And remember, you brought it up. 4/15 then 5/15 then 6/15 and now 8/15 and I guarantee it will be moved back again and they have my money. That really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That doesn't sit well with me. You know, people get paid for testing an Alpha game. Where's my weekly or monthly check? Why did I give some people $40 to work for them, probably for six months to a year? You enjoy that? Good. After this you can come and work for free for me for a year or so. How does that sit with you?

Also, comprehension is just as important as being able to read. Kindly don't warp what I said and imply I'm trying to change the game. I was asking for information.

You've talked about it a hundred times? Great. Volunteer to organize the forums better because I sure can't find anything except speculation by other people.

I do thank you for the name. I'll look it up. It may be pushed back again, it may not. Either way, you don't "HAVE" to test it. If you feel you should get paid for it, then DON'T DO IT. You have the option of this, where as people who get paid have to do it or they don't get paid. If it doesn't sit well with you, you can always ask for a refund, they have given out some already. I don't know why, but you seem to think that you're required to test this game which simply isn't the case. As I said before, if you don't like it don't do it. The terraform is fun for me, so I do it. If you have a job that I enjoy doing in my free time, ya I'll do it for free too.

If you're just asking for information, then there is no reason to post your own views on it while threatening to quit if it's not like that.

Here is some info I found in a couple of minutes, put all the info you can from the admins/mods together if you wish.

http://xsyon.com/forums/28-features/232-conflict-death-consequences-and-decisions#232

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/30-prelude-talk/20586-open-world-pvp-option

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/8-off-topic/16083-very-long-4-questions-for-jooky (Questions 2-4)

http://www.xsyon.com/faq (Number 11)

Hey, hey, hey, as I said, you brought it up, so I gave you a full explanation. Now you're bringing it up again. Who threatened to quit? I said I would do "A" if "B" was the case. I asked for information to see if I would do "A". "A" was leave, not quit, and it wasn't a threat. There was no threat. As I said, you have a reading comprehension problem. I'm content to drop it.

Veldern
05-25-2010, 07:29 PM
Blue Pig wrote:

Hey, hey, hey, as I said, you brought it up, so I gave you a full explanation. Now you're bringing it up again. Who threatened to quit? I said I would do "A" if "B" was the case. I asked for information to see if I would do "A". "A" was leave, not quit, and it wasn't a threat. There was no threat. As I said, you have a reading comprehension problem. I'm content to drop it.
No, I didn't bring up what didn't sit well with you. I brought up what didn't sit well with me. Lack of learning comprehension starts with you, buddy. And yes, saying you'll quit the game (or cancel your preorder) if it's not the way you want (AKA saying you'll do "A" if "B" was the case) is threatening to quit the game. I gave you a bunch of information, but from the sounds of things you didn't go through it. Too bad.

Blue Pig
05-25-2010, 07:50 PM
BLinDDeniaL wrote:

Veldern wrote:

Blue Pig wrote:

Would you rather I lied? Would that have sat better with you? You know what doesn't sit well with me? And remember, you brought it up. 4/15 then 5/15 then 6/15 and now 8/15 and I guarantee it will be moved back again and they have my money. That really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That doesn't sit well with me. You know, people get paid for testing an Alpha game. Where's my weekly or monthly check? Why did I give some people $40 to work for them, probably for six months to a year? You enjoy that? Good. After this you can come and work for free for me for a year or so. How does that sit with you?

Also, comprehension is just as important as being able to read. Kindly don't warp what I said and imply I'm trying to change the game. I was asking for information.

You've talked about it a hundred times? Great. Volunteer to organize the forums better because I sure can't find anything except speculation by other people.

I do thank you for the name. I'll look it up. It may be pushed back again, it may not. Either way, you don't "HAVE" to test it. If you feel you should get paid for it, then DON'T DO IT. You have the option of this, where as people who get paid have to do it or they don't get paid. If it doesn't sit well with you, you can always ask for a refund, they have given out some already. I don't know why, but you seem to think that you're required to test this game which simply isn't the case. As I said before, if you don't like it don't do it. The terraform is fun for me, so I do it. If you have a job that I enjoy doing in my free time, ya I'll do it for free too.

If you're just asking for information, then there is no reason to post your own views on it while threatening to quit if it's not like that.

Here is some info I found in a couple of minutes, put all the info you can from the admins/mods together if you wish.

http://xsyon.com/forums/28-features/232-conflict-death-consequences-and-decisions#232

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/30-prelude-talk/20586-open-world-pvp-option

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/8-off-topic/16083-very-long-4-questions-for-jooky (Questions 2-4)

http://www.xsyon.com/faq (Number 11)

I whole Heartidly agree with Veldern...

This post started as an informative discussion about pvp and ideals/thoughts about it, but has now turned into a QQ post...

If you are so upset about the state of the game and fear that it will not cater for your play style or be your gaming holy grail, then why not ask for a refund and go play some other game which will make you happy in the meantime? If you are then still interested in Xsyon, then keep an eye on its developments. That way when it IS released you will know full well what you are getting yourself into.

We don't need another QQ post where someone states Xsyon is bad because of XXXXXXX... The community that is here understands what the devs are going through and is supportive of their decisions as well as looking forward to the finished product.

Therefore to all people who are unhappy at this stage, why not get a refund and leave? No one is forcing you to stay and that would also mean less QQ for us to read...

You're some piece of work. I notice you post right after your buddy. One instigates through deception or miscomprehension, and you immediately follow up with more misdirection. Go scam someone else, lol.

If "This post started as an informative discussion about pvp and ideals/thoughts about it..." then I guess I'm they guy that started the informative post. As for QQ? Where do you see me do that? Your buddy didn't comprehend what I wrote and then wrote that "it didn't sit well with him". I'm sorry what he doesn't understand upsets him, but I'm not going to let him brow beat me with his lack of English comprehension. So I explained it to him in detail. Like I said, he brought it up.

As for your misdirection, or perhaps your lack of comprehension as well (for all I know you're just an alt account agreeing with yourself), where do I say "Xsyon is bad because of XXXXXXX..." That's right. Nowhere. I do, however, say that when I buy a product, and that product is advertized as being available on a certain date, then I expect that product to be available on that date. Since this is an MMO, I realize that there may be some delay. But when that delay turns into "maybe in four months and maybe not then", then yes, I'm a bit ticked off. I'd bet good money that most people are ticked off about that. And you call that QQ or whining, lol? That's just the simple truth. If a car salesman did that to you how would you feel? All warm and glowy inside?

However, I bring that up only now since you bring it up yourself.

I'm also sure the developers really appreciate your "Therefore to all people who are unhappy at this stage, why not get a refund and leave? No one is forcing you to stay and that would also mean less QQ for us to read..."

Oh, I'm sure they love you for that one.

Without any malice whatsoever, just simply because it's the truth, all I can think of when I read what you write is "one with not much understanding". You can simplify that into one word if you wish.

Blue Pig
05-25-2010, 07:58 PM
Veldern wrote:

Blue Pig wrote:

Hey, hey, hey, as I said, you brought it up, so I gave you a full explanation. Now you're bringing it up again. Who threatened to quit? I said I would do "A" if "B" was the case. I asked for information to see if I would do "A". "A" was leave, not quit, and it wasn't a threat. There was no threat. As I said, you have a reading comprehension problem. I'm content to drop it.
No, I didn't bring up what didn't sit well with you. I brought up what didn't sit well with me. Lack of learning comprehension starts with you, buddy. And yes, saying you'll quit the game (or cancel your preorder) if it's not the way you want (AKA saying you'll do "A" if "B" was the case) is threatening to quit the game. I gave you a bunch of information, but from the sounds of things you didn't go through it. Too bad.

Pretending to win an argument is one thing, actually winning it is quite a different matter. I see there's no need to reply to you. Have a nice day.

Veldern
05-25-2010, 08:13 PM
Blue Pig wrote:

Pretending to win an argument is one thing, actually winning it is quite a different matter. I see there's no need to reply to you. Have a nice day. And yet you still do... I never said I won the argument, I merely pointed out how you lost it. Now that you've run out of valid things to say, I don't mind if you leave.

Blue Pig
05-25-2010, 08:32 PM
prokop15 wrote:

BLinDDeniaL wrote:

Therefore to all people who are unhappy at this stage, why not get a refund and leave? No one is forcing you to stay and that would also mean less QQ for us to read...

Alternatively, Jooky could answer basic mechanic questions that appear extremely vaguely in the features and information post.

@Bluepig: What one game did you have in mind that you would have a permanent advantage in? Also, you are really bad at writing man. Take this as constructive criticism, work on your conciseness. Its rude to write like you do.

I'm really bad at writing? It's rude to write like I do? Rude to who? Those with ADD?

Well, I'm certainly not going to tell you what game I had in mind if you're going to be like that :laugh:

Blue Pig
05-25-2010, 09:41 PM
prokop15 wrote:

Yeah it's rude to people who value their time. Respect people who take the time to read your opinions even though you're clearly a .

At this point you might want to take a look at my avatar. Then you might want to reread your post and reflect on "rude" and "respect".

BLinDDeniaL
05-26-2010, 05:13 AM
Blue Pig wrote:

You're some piece of work. I notice you post right after your buddy. One instigates through deception or miscomprehension, and you immediately follow up with more misdirection. Go scam someone else, lol.

If "This post started as an informative discussion about pvp and ideals/thoughts about it..." then I guess I'm they guy that started the informative post. As for QQ? Where do you see me do that? Your buddy didn't comprehend what I wrote and then wrote that "it didn't sit well with him". I'm sorry what he doesn't understand upsets him, but I'm not going to let him brow beat me with his lack of English comprehension. So I explained it to him in detail. Like I said, he brought it up.

As for your misdirection, or perhaps your lack of comprehension as well (for all I know you're just an alt account agreeing with yourself), where do I say "Xsyon is bad because of XXXXXXX..." That's right. Nowhere. I do, however, say that when I buy a product, and that product is advertized as being available on a certain date, then I expect that product to be available on that date. Since this is an MMO, I realize that there may be some delay. But when that delay turns into "maybe in four months and maybe not then", then yes, I'm a bit ticked off. I'd bet good money that most people are ticked off about that. And you call that QQ or whining, lol? That's just the simple truth. If a car salesman did that to you how would you feel? All warm and glowy inside?

However, I bring that up only now since you bring it up yourself.

I'm also sure the developers really appreciate your "Therefore to all people who are unhappy at this stage, why not get a refund and leave? No one is forcing you to stay and that would also mean less QQ for us to read..."

Oh, I'm sure they love you for that one.

Without any malice whatsoever, just simply because it's the truth, all I can think of when I read what you write is "one with not much understanding". You can simplify that into one word if you wish.

Ello

Now that you mention it, it is quite funny that my posts directly follow Valen's...

I will not be addressing your attempts at provoking me for more trolling, however I would like to mention something with a tongue in cheek: I would like you to notice that I only agreed with Valen once and the other time with Ciik, therefore I doubt that that would makes either of us buddies :P

Now let's get back to the matter at hand:


I would like to clarify the intention and content in my previous post as I noticed it is quite open for interpretation after re-reading it.

The post was not meant as a continuation of the trolling or flaming but rather highlighting past actions. As I mentioned, you started this post as an informative post about mechanics and ponderings (however I might not have agreed with some of your examples) you had good points to offer. However since that time others have come to derail this into a trolling post and have succeeded in provoking you into trolling as well. Therefore this thread is now imo a trolling post = has no value...

The advice I mentioned still holds however and also applies to all other members of the community who are complaining about the current state of the game: If you are unhappy with how it's going down or what has happened, then get a refund and come back when it's done. (and everything else I advised)

You also have to realise that your comparisons do not hold water for Xsyon as they are quite different as Notorius Games is not an established developer and it's their first project etc, so it is expected for there to be pushbacks, delays and issues creeping up. However it seems this is your first experience for this sort of thing and therefore why I offered my advice in terms of removing the feeling of being cheated or unhappy (refund), saving you from undue stress+irritation (coming back after it's done) and then deciding whether your money will be wasted or return value by purchasing and playing Xsyon.

As you seem to like comparisons, I would say it is more apt to compare Xsyon to a movie production and you have stepped into the editing, cutting and reshooting phase of the product. You are far from going to a cinema buying a ticket and then watching the movie.

So I hope this will shed some light for you and that you consider my advice :)

frogeye
05-26-2010, 06:07 AM
Actually I didn't wanted to expand this a bit exploded into something the creator didn't intented post, but concerning 'patience' because not everything is perfect or just developing at the moment I have to say: I have all patience in the world lol. I'm sure there will be no _further_ charge as long there is no real playing possible, and I'm happy in giving those guys one 'advance payment' and perhaps it then - and perhaps just BECAUSE they haven't had other similar projects so far - is growing into something different. The vision that perhaps a game might be created that is different and is keeping me on over months or perhaps years is it worth for me to do this --- "yes, I'm interested, and here you have some bucks and go let us see what you can build and perhaps we will all have much fun together and then I'm happy to give you a monthly charge" ---
So, no stress, and for myself (well I can only say for myself ) this is the point: If it's taking a bit more time than actually planned (15 Aug) my world keeps on spinning though. And I'm watching the progress and sitting there and yes: I have other things to do and am not totally bored just because XSYON is not what it will be once.
And concerning the actual implementation, physics, terraforming, trees, water it IS so far different yet. Keep it rocking, :)

Blue Pig
05-26-2010, 07:20 AM
BLinDDeniaL wrote:

I would like to clarify the intention and content in my previous post as I noticed it is quite open for interpretation after re-reading it.

The post was not meant as a continuation of the trolling or flaming but rather highlighting past actions. As I mentioned, you started this post as an informative post about mechanics and ponderings (however I might not have agreed with some of your examples) you had good points to offer. However since that time others have come to derail this into a trolling post and have succeeded in provoking you into trolling as well. Therefore this thread is now imo a trolling post = has no value...

The advice I mentioned still holds however and also applies to all other members of the community who are complaining about the current state of the game: If you are unhappy with how it's going down or what has happened, then get a refund and come back when it's done. (and everything else I advised)

You also have to realise that your comparisons do not hold water for Xsyon as they are quite different as Notorius Games is not an established developer and it's their first project etc, so it is expected for there to be pushbacks, delays and issues creeping up. However it seems this is your first experience for this sort of thing and therefore why I offered my advice in terms of removing the feeling of being cheated or unhappy (refund), saving you from undue stress+irritation (coming back after it's done) and then deciding whether your money will be wasted or return value by purchasing and playing Xsyon.

As you seem to like comparisons, I would say it is more apt to compare Xsyon to a movie production and you have stepped into the editing, cutting and reshooting phase of the product. You are far from going to a cinema buying a ticket and then watching the movie.

So I hope this will shed some light for you and that you consider my advice :)


I interpreted your post incorrectly then, and I apologize for the vitriolic statements I directed towards you. I have no objection to reasonable discussion.

Indeed, I see where I would have been better off ignoring a few posters.

My compliments to you for maintaining levelheadedness and clarifying the situation.

Blue Pig
05-26-2010, 07:33 AM
frogeye wrote:

Actually I didn't wanted to expand this a bit exploded into something the creator didn't intented post, but concerning 'patience' because not everything is perfect or just developing at the moment I have to say: I have all patience in the world lol. I'm sure there will be no _further_ charge as long there is no real playing possible, and I'm happy in giving those guys one 'advance payment' and perhaps it then - and perhaps just BECAUSE they haven't had other similar projects so far - is growing into something different. The vision that perhaps a game might be created that is different and is keeping me on over months or perhaps years is it worth for me to do this --- "yes, I'm interested, and here you have some bucks and go let us see what you can build and perhaps we will all have much fun together and then I'm happy to give you a monthly charge" ---
So, no stress, and for myself (well I can only say for myself ) this is the point: If it's taking a bit more time than actually planned (15 Aug) my world keeps on spinning though. And I'm watching the progress and sitting there and yes: I have other things to do and am not totally bored just because XSYON is not what it will be once.
And concerning the actual implementation, physics, terraforming, trees, water it IS so far different yet. Keep it rocking, :)


Your attitude is refreshing, and patience is usually my forte. I misplaced it for a few hours. You're right that a few bucks for the interesting experience offered here is reasonable.

Boondox
05-26-2010, 03:12 PM
Blue Pig wrote:

Boondox wrote:

so what about a game that had open pvp then changed to restricted pvp and became a failure like UO(Ultima Online). when trammel was added in everyone flocked to trammel where it was safe and pvp basicly died out.

If everyone flocked to Trammel, that's a hint and a half that "everyone" didn't want gankfest PvP, no? UO was the first true MMO to come out. It had no competition. It didn't fail because Trammel was put in. If everyone went there, then the population just moved. How would that cause the game to fail or die? You want to know why UO died out? EverQuest : competition from a PvE game. That and the fact that, if you go back and play it now, UO is essentially a crappy game. But even a crappy "first of it's kind" game can be a great initial success.

I must say that EQ (after the first month or two) was the most boring timesink I've ever played. Ever. Brad McQuaid was a clever and sadistic/malicious "so and so." Essentially, he made a game that simulated fun, instead of making a game that actually was fun to play. Bigger and bigger bats. A tired model that other developers still follow. However, I will say that the best feature of EQ was that in a good group you actually could have a lot of fun.


UO failed from Trammel because it made the game just like every other MMO UO was fun because you never knew when a red would randomly stroll by and attack you. And everyone one went to trammel because they want to play the game on easymode with no risk. Yea alot of people did gank and grief in UO but thats what the blue guilds were for that hunted reds, go to brit bank and say reds at covetous Boom they are dead and you can go back to hunting. The whole free for all pvp just adds a little extra risk to the game and some player protection.

Jadzia
05-26-2010, 03:24 PM
Boondox wrote:

Blue Pig wrote:

Boondox wrote:

so what about a game that had open pvp then changed to restricted pvp and became a failure like UO(Ultima Online). when trammel was added in everyone flocked to trammel where it was safe and pvp basicly died out.

If everyone flocked to Trammel, that's a hint and a half that "everyone" didn't want gankfest PvP, no? UO was the first true MMO to come out. It had no competition. It didn't fail because Trammel was put in. If everyone went there, then the population just moved. How would that cause the game to fail or die? You want to know why UO died out? EverQuest : competition from a PvE game. That and the fact that, if you go back and play it now, UO is essentially a crappy game. But even a crappy "first of it's kind" game can be a great initial success.

I must say that EQ (after the first month or two) was the most boring timesink I've ever played. Ever. Brad McQuaid was a clever and sadistic/malicious "so and so." Essentially, he made a game that simulated fun, instead of making a game that actually was fun to play. Bigger and bigger bats. A tired model that other developers still follow. However, I will say that the best feature of EQ was that in a good group you actually could have a lot of fun.


UO failed from Trammel because it made the game just like every other MMO UO was fun because you never knew when a red would randomly stroll by and attack you. And everyone one went to trammel because they want to play the game on easymode with no risk. Yea alot of people did gank and grief in UO but thats what the blue guilds were for that hunted reds, go to brit bank and say reds at covetous Boom they are dead and you can go back to hunting. The whole free for all pvp just adds a little extra risk to the game and some player protection.
This doesn't sound very logical to me....if it was open PvP and risk what made UO fun then why did everyone go to trammel to avoid the most fun part of the game ? Doesn't it mean that they didn't find it fun ?

VowOfSilence
05-28-2010, 08:51 PM
Jadzia wrote:

This doesn't sound very logical to me....if it was open PvP and risk what made UO fun then why did everyone go to trammel to avoid the most fun part of the game ? Doesn't it mean that they didn't find it fun ?

Well, he's got a point there. Risking your life to rescue the baby from the flames makes you a hero. But if you can simply take the back door to get the same result, taking the risk suddenly feels kinda stupid. Sure, you can still do it just for the thrill of it - but it just isn't the same anymore. Well, you get the idea ;)

Ciik
05-29-2010, 08:21 AM
My god. If there was ever a thread where one poster continuously dominated in post-count to give the illusion of topic righteousness, this is one of them.

jefferysauto
05-29-2010, 09:36 AM
Blue Pig wrote:

After being in the game for a few hours I see that this stage of testing resembles Alpha more than Beta, so if I'm going to test the game for "free" for the next 6 months to a year I'm going to want to play the "finished" product the way "I" want to play it. If I can't, I'd appreciate the developers telling me so I can spend my time differently.

And how do "I" like to play? I like to play a successful game that has staying power and long term appeal for the "majority" of players. No Unrestricted Open PvP game has yet been successful, and no Unrestricted Open PvP game will ever be successful.

What do I mean by success? A game can be a financial success and still suck. STO is a prime example of a game that is a huge financial success and is also one of the worst MMOs out there. Why? Cryptic is great at lying and Star Trek fans don't know when to cut their losses. It's not an Unrestriceted Open PvP game, btw.

EVE-Online (a Semi-Unrestricted Open PvP game) spends a lot on advertizing to make up for the players that leave (and I sold 3 five-year-old accounts so that helps the game have staying power as well). It's a niche game that will fizzle out in two more years. Tredo made a post about it here:

http://xsyon.com/forums/30-prelude-talk/22940-a-lesson-well-learned#22947

and his reference is the following review of EVE by a player:

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Mopar63/082008/6146_Why-EVE-No-More

I agree with that review 100%.


Eve is a PvP game where there is Unrestricted Open PvP in most areas (generally speaking). There is safe space and usually people would be foolish to try to kill you there, but they can, so there really is no absolutely safe space (therefore it's an Unrestricted Open PVP game at its core). But EVE safe space was good enough for me. As it is, to get the better ores you have to leave safe space, and when you do, you'd better have an armada. Tredo's link to the review explains it.

Dark Age of Camelot is, of course (minus the mez spells and the hacks) the best type of PvP game--RvR in a Frontier Zone. That game is still around (since 2001), and for good reason.

Darkfall has a low population as far as I can see (under 10k players and probably much, much less). I can understand why. Unrestricted Open PvP. While being near your starting area grants you good protection, your newbie fighting areas, where you get your fighting skills up, are often camped by friends and foes alike, usually on the weekends (as I said, it's a low population game for good reason).

One day I decided to get some mediocre "but for me, expensive" gear and fight the goblins just outside the fort but beyond the range of the towers. Now I had been killed before, but it was by reds and they were enemies (of my race and allies). Meh, okay. No big loss. But this time I paid a pretty penny (for me) for gear. I went to the goblins and was killed by an ally helping his buddy level. I thought it was cheesy, but okay, it happens. I went back and behold, he had taken my crappy but "expensive to me" gear. I asked him why. He said it was for his newbie friend. Mind you, this was an ally (me elf--him dwarf). We bantered back and forth, I didn't whine and laughed about it, and he came into town and made me even better gear. Hey, nice. Great.

But you know what, apart from the awful grind that DF is, I realized that this would be a common occurrence (minus the nice guy giving me the gear back). This would happen over and over, just mindless griefing for no reason and with no great consequences, so I decided I'd let them grief someone else. It wasn't a rage quit. It was a logical decision not to continue playing a bad game.

How would you like to go out, get killed, go out, get killed, go out... and so forth? I don't like that. I came to play a reasonable game, not be a punching bag for someone 80 times my level who is too afraid to fight characters his own level. While there are no levels in DF, I'm sure you get my meaning.

And how do I define Unrestricted Open PvP? It's a game that griefers flock to. It's a game where any player, usually the type that likes to kill for mindless fun (his fun) does exactly that, and suffers no meaningful penalty, if any. In the process he ruins the other player's gaming experience and that player usually quits. That's just bad game design. That's a failure of a game before it even starts.

How does this relate to Xsyon? Xsyon is a "building" game. People will build structures, roads and so forth. But it will be a low population game for some time. I go to sleep. People in my tribe will go to sleep (irl). How do we defend in an online game when we're asleep? Let's take a look at WURM (I'm currently playing that as well). Crappy animations (if you can call them that) but a reasonable Semi-Open PvP system (as I call it). As you build your town, or whatever you want to call it, you can build towers that spawn powerful guards that defend the town. As you expand, you can build more towers. Now these guards aren't omnipotent. A large enough force can defeat them. But I'm happy that it deters aggression enough to have the enemy think and plan very hard if they want to attack. Notice the words think and plan as opposed to mindless and meaningless. Also, it simulates the innate advantage a defender would have in an area he knows better than the attacker.

And if you're a student of paleoarchaeology, you know that our ancestors of 170,000 years ago to 12,000 years ago depended on cooperation and shared information. They would have been stupid to kill one another or even attempt it. And for the most part, they didn't. Cooperation worked better, and killing someone else just wasn't worth the risk. It's only when population levels rose dramatically and large groups of people occupied relatively small areas did warfare come into fashion (about 10,000 to 5,000 years ago). This post-apocalyptic game simulates a small population and small bands of people, but I digress to a degree.

Of course, I don't know what plan the developers have. I know they've thought about the options they have. They can have a mediocre game that's a moderate finacncial success. That may be all they want out of this game. Or they could fail. Such is life. They might want to make the game as they see fit regardless of consequences (financial and gamewise). That's their option. It's all okay. Obviously, we all want them to make a good game and we all assume they want to make a good game.

A good game doesn't have Unrestricted Open PvP. The game would deteriorate into a gankfest. A good game doesn't allow an ally to kill you without a penalty (The Eternal City just threw you in jail for some hours if you attacked someone in a protected area--and if you killed them without a good reason in another area, your character was perma killed by the developer after you stood trial).

Why do good games have these protection features? Because there will always be some person with his finger up his nose that likes to cause other people misery. I don't know why they do it. Maybe they have a small member, surely they have a small brain with not much thought going on. They just can't help themselves. Oh look, I can kill someone... chaaarge! No mind, plain and simple.

And because good games protect against this type of nonsense (read "non-sense", "no point"), they are more likely to thrive. They may not thrive forever, but they last for years and they do so with relatively large populations. It makes good business sense.

Of course, perhaps some of the developers want to play the game themselves and they prefer Unrestricted Open PvP. Or they have their own vision. That's all okay too.

However, if that's the case, if the developers intend to make this Unrestricted Open PvP with no meaningful PvP and no meaningful consequences for "grief" attacks, then I'd like them to let me know now so I don't waste my time. I'd like to know the plan. That's not much to ask for.


Hate to say this but this sounds similair to what Dawntide is trying to do..