Tiny People

[Cracky69]

I was kinda of the understanding that this game was going to have the attributes affecting skills.

Are small people penalised in terms or reach, encumbrance etc?

Tiny people can make good gymnasts, but they don't make good boxers and I wouldn't expect to see them carrying logs. Does anyone know if there is an actual game disadvantage to making the avatars tiny, or are we going to be surrounded by midgets like in Aion.

BTW no offense to tiny folk :) Just want to know about the game design.

[Ignominus]

I have noticed that "tiny people" have to swim in shallower water than taller people. Allowing taller characters to dig deeper in submerged terrain.

[joexxxz]

@ Ignominus

Wow good point. I wanna be the tallest of them all. :P

[inferno3387]

Tiny people?

[Leiros]

At one point it was stated that taller people move a little faster too because they have longer legs... I don't know if that's still the case or not.

However, I have made characters that are as tall as possible and as short as possible and it seems that even with both having 90 str the taller one can carry more and kill things quicker. I'm not for certain on that, but it seems like it.

[Bossman]

In our experiments we found that the size of your toon also affected the size of your hit window... but since Pvp is buggy it's hard to tell if it's designed this way or not. Basically, midget size toons were harder to hit than giants.

[Cracky69]

Bossman wrote:

In our experiments we found that the size of your toon also affected the size of your hit window... but since Pvp is buggy it's hard to tell if it's designed this way or not. Basically, midget size toons were harder to hit than giants.

To be honest, this is what I fear. I'm getting a little tired of games where being a midget gives the player an advantage in PvP but no disadvantage.

Fair enough that you're harder to hit and more agile, but you should also find it harder to hit because of the reduced arm length. You shouldn't jump as high, top speed should be limited and I also think you shouldn't be allowed the same max strength.

Put a feather weight boxer against a heavy weight and see how long they last. Yeah they'll be quick but one or too punches from the big guy and they'll be down.

It feels as if in the MMO world David would always be the favourite and no one would expect Goliath to win, surely this is wrong.

[Deacon]

Cracky69 wrote:

Bossman wrote:

In our experiments we found that the size of your toon also affected the size of your hit window... but since Pvp is buggy it's hard to tell if it's designed this way or not. Basically, midget size toons were harder to hit than giants.

To be honest, this is what I fear. I'm getting a little tired of games where being a midget gives the player an advantage in PvP but no disadvantage.

Fair enough that you're harder to hit and more agile, but you should also find it harder to hit because of the reduced arm length. You shouldn't jump as high, top speed should be limited and I also think you shouldn't be allowed the same max strength.

Put a feather weight boxer against a heavy weight and see how long they last. Yeah they'll be quick but one or too punches from the big guy and they'll be down.

It feels as if in the MMO world David would always be the favourite and no one would expect Goliath to win, surely this is wrong.


I feel the same way. Now if we can just get some Dev to confirm either way.

[Deacon]

I'm gonna bump this back to top in hopes of getting some Dev comments about "size matters" LOL


Unless there is a confirmation, that being tiny will have as much dissadvantage as advantages...everyone in game will be tiny.

[kiwibird]

I could be wrong, but I doubt a Dev will respond. The reason for this likely because tey will want players to find out the how's and why's of height.

This means being tight lipped on issues such as this until either players fail to get information, or to confirm what players believe to be true.

[Ignominus]

no offense but I think this is crap. Each game has its own idea of how key attributes effect different skills. How are we supposed to test something we have no idea how it is supposed to work or if it is even working as intended?

In some games dex is for defense and or ranged attacks and possibly daggers. In other cases it might refer to ones abilities in terms of crafting with one's hands. A really tall character would have a reach advantage but would be perhaps easier to hit, a dev might decide to balance that out so that there is no advantage in being tall or short. Spirit could be thought to be totally involved in some sort of future casting class or for the resistances to such attacks.. or it could be more like morale or bravery.

To be clear, I am not asking for formulas. I think we should have reasonable common sense knowledge of what each statistic is good for.


Edited for people who learned to read on twitter... and also to explain that my response was intended for Kiwi's notion that the devs would have us figure it out ourselves.

[Risk]

gave up half way through the rant...Learn basic spacing and we'll read yer rant...
I'm a tard at writing but even I know spacing...think they call em paragraphs...heh.

edit:

my apologies,
I too have had a time of typing without returns...
What specific areas are you having problems with???

[WillBingham]

Deacon wrote:

Cracky69 wrote:

Bossman wrote:

In our experiments we found that the size of your toon also affected the size of your hit window... but since Pvp is buggy it's hard to tell if it's designed this way or not. Basically, midget size toons were harder to hit than giants.

To be honest, this is what I fear. I'm getting a little tired of games where being a midget gives the player an advantage in PvP but no disadvantage.

Fair enough that you're harder to hit and more agile, but you should also find it harder to hit because of the reduced arm length. You shouldn't jump as high, top speed should be limited and I also think you shouldn't be allowed the same max strength.

Put a feather weight boxer against a heavy weight and see how long they last. Yeah they'll be quick but one or too punches from the big guy and they'll be down.

It feels as if in the MMO world David would always be the favourite and no one would expect Goliath to win, surely this is wrong.


I feel the same way. Now if we can just get some Dev to confirm either way.

I agree with this too.

What I would find strange is for the Devs, who have tried so hard at making this realistic, would allow for extremely tall or short characters to take over the game. I for one do not see that happening, it just wouldn't be in keeping with what has been done so far.

As far as stats and character development go I wouldn't worry too much about it. If we get a week of play with the final build it WILL be figured out by the time the game launches. :cheer:

[Gamefreak]

If ridiculously small characters are going to be getting large bonuses to speed and stamina, they should take some huge strength hits. I'm tired of games like Darkfall where dwarves and alfar (a small dark elf) are nearly impossible to hit, yet they get no penalties to compensate for this.

[Deacon]

any word on this yet Devs?

[Deacon]

bump for yet another try for an answer from Devs....people who actually know...not guessing or how you feel it might happen.

[gremrod]

Yeah I would like to know too.

[Deacon]

I'm guessing we'll not get an answer, considering they've had several chances to do so. Welcome to Munchkin land I guess.

[Xx1327]

if you want an answer that bad email the FAQ or ask it in a better part of the forum...

kids these days

[Deacon]

Xx1327 wrote:

if you want an answer that bad email the FAQ or ask it in a better part of the forum...

kids these days


oh.....excuse me Dad.

I'm not sure where a "better part" of the forums would be. Especially considering they supposedly read ALL of the forums. If I ask via EMAIL...then not everyone will know the answer, and me posting what is said to me in an email...if I did that sort of thing....wouldnt be the Devs officially posting on it.


EDIT: but to ease your concerned mind...I did send in a bug report pointing to this thread, as surely it's a bug that small characters have same abilities as large, with added benefits for being small, but no detriments.

[Xsyon]

Thanks for bringing this thread to my attention, Deacon.

I'm the only one with answers to things like this and I don't get a chance to read all the threads, especially during busy times (all time these days ;) )

Right now there are no differences based on player height. We will work on some adjustments soon so that height affects attack range, carrying capacity and a few other things.

I will read through this thread and take some notes as I'm sure there have been some interesting suggestions.

Edited: After a quick read, looks like the suggestions are things I already planned: attack range, jump height, carrying capacity and movment adjustments.

Thanks!

[Xx1327]

no, thank you B)


/thread

[Darkbless]

So Tiny people will have only negative differences? How about some pluses?) Like dodge, hiding, silence, etc...

[Xsyon]

There will be pluses for midgets little people, such as being harder to target (they already are).

I'm keeping notes on other future benefits / drawbacks that will be based on height and weight.

[myeadon]

Midgets should eat less then some huge guy since they are smaller.

[Deacon]

Some people are talking of realistic style game play like having no position coordinates and no compass, so I'll add my opinion on realistic size advantages and disadvantages.

Tiny toons already have two built in advantages...they're harder to hit because of hitbox, and their size allows them to stand/hide behind smaller rocks and trees without detection. That should be all they get in advantages.

I've never had any difference in ability to hit anyone IRL depending on their size. But I guess the game requires smaller hitboxes for smaller toons.

The ability to hide is dependant on blending into surrounding, as well as lack of movement....thats why snipers wear guilly suits and move extremely slow towards their objective, then remain still once in position.

Smaller toons should get less max strength, as less mass=less bulk. This would allow them to put extra stat points in agility if wanted, but no game given advantage to agility should be given.

A smaller toon would be able to hit less hard than a large, and when recieving a hit from larger toon, the smaller would have less mass to absorb the hit. This would be mimiced in game with difference in strength stats.

Agility should be reduced actually for smaller toons, if weilding a weapon, as the weapons are large and would be more cumbersome for smaller toons.

Reach of course would be reduced for smaller toons. That is why larger boxers are favored when considering reach advantages.

No run speed advantage should be given, as they have to actually run twice as hard as a big toon to reach same destination because of a shorter stide length.

There was a reason the Philistines sent out Goliath...the largest and most feared of their army. David beat him in spite of being smaller, not because of it...and a projectile, not size gave the win.

There is a reason taller people win marathons and excell in track and field, as opposed to shorter.

There is a reason smaller people are ususally the sidekick, not the hero.

I've never known anyone who wishes they were smaller as opposed to being taller.

So...in closing, I dont understand why people want to create smaller toons, unless they want to mimic their real life self, or just like the advantages other games gave to small toons in combat and hope to have that here.

ALL the stats will have benefits to certain skills when raised, and of course lessen advantages if lowered....with limited points for stats....maybe that should be ultimate decider in most abilities.

If you dont agree with these thoughts on size vs abilities, please say so, but please, give a reason why.

[Drono]

Deacon wrote:

Some people are talking of realistic style game play like having no position coordinates and no compass, so I'll add my opinion on realistic size advantages and disadvantages.

Tiny toons already have two built in advantages...they're harder to hit because of hitbox, and their size allows them to stand/hide behind smaller rocks and trees without detection. That should be all they get in advantages.

I've never had any difference in ability to hit anyone IRL depending on their size. But I guess the game requires smaller hitboxes for smaller toons.

The ability to hide is dependant on blending into surrounding, as well as lack of movement....thats why snipers wear guilly suits and move extremely slow towards their objective, then remain still once in position.

Smaller toons should get less max strength, as less mass=less bulk. This would allow them to put extra stat points in agility if wanted, but no game given advantage to agility should be given.

A smaller toon would be able to hit less hard than a large, and when recieving a hit from larger toon, the smaller would have less mass to absorb the hit. This would be mimiced in game with difference in strength stats.

Agility should be reduced actually for smaller toons, if weilding a weapon, as the weapons are large and would be more cumbersome for smaller toons.

Reach of course would be reduced for smaller toons. That is why larger boxers are favored when considering reach advantages.

No run speed advantage should be given, as they have to actually run twice as hard as a big toon to reach same destination because of a shorter stide length.

There was a reason the Philistines sent out Goliath...the largest and most feared of their army. David beat him in spite of being smaller, not because of it...and a projectile, not size gave the win.

There is a reason taller people win marathons and excell in track and field, as opposed to shorter.

There is a reason smaller people are ususally the sidekick, not the hero.

I've never known anyone who wishes they were smaller as opposed to being taller.

So...in closing, I dont understand why people want to create smaller toons, unless they want to mimic their real life self, or just like the advantages other games gave to small toons in combat and hope to have that here.

ALL the stats will have benefits to certain skills when raised, and of course lessen advantages if lowered....with limited points for stats....maybe that should be ultimate decider in most abilities.

If you dont agree with these thoughts on size vs abilities, please say so, but please, give a reason why.


Deacon, you seem to miss the point of the david and goliath story...

Goliath Understimated the smaller David because he considered him no threat so lacking the negative mental buff that cannot be forced onto a real player, games give shorter characters a small bonus to dodge to simulate the Underestimation that should be happening.

and have you really been out beating up children and midgets?

I took care of children when I was younger and I can tell you they are wirey little things that slip out of your grasp quite easily...

restraining a child is a different thing, unless you plan on harming the child you have to be a little more gentle or you can break their bones... (IE shorter you are the easier you are to hurt badly)

just something for you to consider....

[Deacon]

blakebinkley wrote:



Deacon, you seem to miss the point of the david and goliath story...

Goliath Understimated the smaller David because he considered him no threat so lacking the negative mental buff that cannot be forced onto a real player, games give shorter characters a small bonus to dodge to simulate the Underestimation that should be happening.

No..the point of the David vs goliath story is "God" gave the small guy the power to overcome a seemed unsurrmountable obstacle
EDIT: but I guess the "lesson" is objective.


and have you really been out beating up children and midgets?

I took care of children when I was younger and I can tell you they are wirey little things that slip out of your grasp quite easily...


restraining a child is a different thing, unless you plan on harming the child you have to be a little more gentle or you can break their bones... (IE shorter you are the easier you are to hurt badly)

just something for you to consider.... B)


No...dont be silly B) I've fought against smaller and larger men than myself, and usually had a much harder time with the larger..and the idea wasnt to "restrain" them, it was to hurt/kill them, just like in game right? We're not PvPing to control a daycare.

Dont get me wrong, there have been smaller guys who were tenacious and tough...but they were the exception, not the rule.

[Abida]

Bumping this thread because I couldn't find any other that cleared up my questions/suggestions.
If there is one, please link. thx.

My concern:
ATM we don't know exactly what consequenses there will be.
Once we know about the benefits and drawbacks we already created our toon.

What if we are not satisfied with the decission, because we have a "minority"-opinion about the changes.
Do we really have to re-roll, because we choosed a size, that we don't know the consequences of?????

My suggestion: Take you time with working out the benefits, but let people change their size after that.

[Armand]

Agreed. Allow for no stat loss rerolls if you're going to flip the mechanic on us after the fact.

[darg75]

I disagree, keep the mechanics of it shrouded in (some) mystery. I think the OP's point (other than they really seem to have a problem with small people) is that they don't want there to be some huge advantage for rolling your character as an angry midget. I say by extension, why do we need to know the details of what the differences actually mean - it'll just push people to creating one particular character type for the advantage to be gained. I'd rather see diversity in the game.

[NorCalGooey]

Agreed. Allow for no stat loss rerolls if you're going to flip the mechanic on us after the fact.


QFT.

This is a must.

[Hoffburger]

Thanks for bringing this thread to my attention, Deacon.

I'm the only one with answers to things like this and I don't get a chance to read all the threads, especially during busy times (all time these days ;) )

Right now there are no differences based on player height. We will work on some adjustments soon so that height affects attack range, carrying capacity and a few other things.

I will read through this thread and take some notes as I'm sure there have been some interesting suggestions.

Edited: After a quick read, looks like the suggestions are things I already planned: attack range, jump height, carrying capacity and movment adjustments.

Thanks!

If that's what you're going to do you're going to force everyone who wants to min/max to be max height. Good job.

[NorCalGooey]

Thanks for bringing this thread to my attention, Deacon.

I'm the only one with answers to things like this and I don't get a chance to read all the threads, especially during busy times (all time these days ;) )

Right now there are no differences based on player height. We will work on some adjustments soon so that height affects attack range, carrying capacity and a few other things.

I will read through this thread and take some notes as I'm sure there have been some interesting suggestions.

Edited: After a quick read, looks like the suggestions are things I already planned: attack range, jump height, carrying capacity and movment adjustments.

Thanks!

Just curious if these plans have been implemented or if they are still on your to do list???

Thanks :)

[Hoffburger]

Agreed. Allow for no stat loss rerolls if you're going to flip the mechanic on us after the fact.

Also, this. If you flip the mechanic on me after the fact and I can't respec my stats, I'll just quit.

[fud007]

Also, this. If you flip the mechanic on me after the fact and I can't respec my stats, I'll just quit.

So basically you want all the benefits of being small now, but don't want any disadvantage when they implement balance? Xsyon made it clear that the mechanic will be more balanced in the future. If you still decide to be small because its beneficial right now, then you should have to live with that decision in the future.

[Aethaeryn]

if you want an answer that bad email the FAQ or ask it in a better part of the forum...

kids these days

That part of the forum is on hold until the Devs are less busy. So while it is unlikely they will answer here any faster. . posting there won't help either.


If that's what you're going to do you're going to force everyone who wants to min/max to be max height. Good job.

Unless you want to get hit less. Then you would chose smaller. . Some people would rather be small and try to out maneuver. You have to think forward to when they add archery. . .or possibly even guns. . being huge will not be "max" then.

[Armand]

So basically you want all the benefits of being small now, but don't want any disadvantage when they implement balance? Xsyon made it clear that the mechanic will be more balanced in the future. If you still decide to be small because its beneficial right now, then you should have to live with that decision in the future.

Knowing just how indecisive game developers are by nature, and considering the fact that forum whining does seem to sway Jooky; I don't believe the above to be logical. You'd think height would scale strength, speed, agility and carrying cap up or down, but apparently that's too complicated at this point for whatever reason.

Constant rebalancing kills games. RIP Warhammer Online.

[jumpshot]

Agreed. Allow for no stat loss rerolls if you're going to flip the mechanic on us after the fact.

or alternatively just roll a toon you like to look at and stop trying to min/max every thing you can

[Dubanka]

So basically you want all the benefits of being small now, but don't want any disadvantage when they implement balance? Xsyon made it clear that the mechanic will be more balanced in the future. If you still decide to be small because its beneficial right now, then you should have to live with that decision in the future.

no, the mecanics of the game game function a certain way now.

so we make our chars based on these mechanics.

if those mechanics change dramitically in a month or 3...well 'gimping' a decent portion of the playerbase without giving them the opportunity to ungimp themselves...not a good recipe for sustained and repeat business, much less referrals.

and yes. people will quit.

it doesn't hurt the game to allow players to adjust their toons based off of significant changes to the game mechanics...i'm not talking about 'oh, i don't like how this works' or 'i wish i would ave taken skill x instead of y'...but fundemental stuff ie. carrying capacity is modified by str AND toon height. melee range is modified by toon height. stealth is modified by toon height AND weight.

we'll have to cross a similar bridge when things like poison, healing, taming, etc. come in...prob not good business to force a player reroll (with only one toon) to try the 'new stuff'.

[BigCountry]

Agreed. Allow for no stat loss rerolls if you're going to flip the mechanic on us after the fact.

/this

[Armand]

or alternatively just roll a toon you like to look at and stop trying to min/max every thing you can

Heil mein Fuhrer, whatever you say.

[Hoffburger]

So basically you want all the benefits of being small now, but don't want any disadvantage when they implement balance? Xsyon made it clear that the mechanic will be more balanced in the future. If you still decide to be small because its beneficial right now, then you should have to live with that decision in the future.

So basically you want me to speculate and make a character on what I think the developers will end up doing with regards to my character? Since they already change their minds so much (just look at the whole 1 server -> 2 server -> 1 server debacle) this is not a reasonable requirement. I will base my character of the system currently implemented.

Let me ask you this? If you want to be a creature tamer, do you put 90 points in charisma and spirit when they currently do nothing? You would be severely gimping yourself by adding points to stats which do nothing in the hopes that down the road the developers implement creature taming. You also have to hope that creature taming is what you thought you wanted it to be, you have to hope it still uses the same stats, and you have to hope that the people who didn't spec into charisma and spirit can't respec.

Huge changes, regardless of whether or not they are planned, require that players be allowed to reroll stats without penalty or many will simply quit.

[Vandali]

Constant rebalancing kills games.

That is in my top 5 of stupid things said about MMO's.

[Armand]

That is in my top 5 of stupid things said about MMO's.


That is in my top 5 of most pretentious statements.
I should have specified though, improper rebalancing.

Say what you will, it's put more than one MMO under.

[Vandali]

You quoted warhammer, a class based game, a sandbox is a competely different kettle of fish. A sandbox needs constant change to retain players, especially one that allows only one character per person. So expect certain skills, character setups etc to be flavour of the month, only to find they are aren't the following month.

[Karasu]

taller toon = faster run speed. truth

[Dubanka]

That is in my top 5 of stupid things said about MMO's.


You quoted warhammer, a class based game, a sandbox is a competely different kettle of fish. A sandbox needs constant change to retain players, especially one that allows only one character per person. So expect certain skills, character setups etc to be flavour of the month, only to find they are aren't the following month.

disagree 100%

if new content requires, or of balance implications require, 'balancing'...by all means it HAS to get done.

If the game is made correctly there shouldnt be a 'fotm'...since fotm usually revolves around new/and or overpowered abilities that are generally imbalancing. ie. a game should not try to make a treadmill of fotms.

if the sandbox is designed correctly the content is player created and driven and while 'new' content infusion is necessary to some degree; its introduction shouldn't be a regular occurrence.

[Armand]

You quoted warhammer, a class based game, a sandbox is a competely different kettle of fish. A sandbox needs constant change to retain players, especially one that allows only one character per person. So expect certain skills, character setups etc to be flavour of the month, only to find they are aren't the following month.

That makes no sense on too many levels.

- Yes, I quoted Warhammer, and you replied with a smartass, blanket statement regarding MMOs.
- Flavor of the month characters are very much associated with class based games as opposed to sandboxes. Proper sandboxes should evolve smoothly, and not brutishly hack balances with every addition of content.
- The premise of disagreement comes from rendering a certain character build completely inviable with regards to its original function, not tweaking of stats.

[Hoffburger]

You quoted warhammer, a class based game, a sandbox is a competely different kettle of fish. A sandbox needs constant change to retain players, especially one that allows only one character per person. So expect certain skills, character setups etc to be flavour of the month, only to find they are aren't the following month.

Skills/Attributes that cannot be changed once the character is made are effectively "classes" just like a mage or rogue is a class in a class based MMO. If advantages are given to stats/attributes that cannot be changed after character creation, then those stats need to be able to be changed by the player, especially if the advantages and disadvantages are significant (like carry weight, weapon reach, and run speed). In a sandbox, you are much more invested in your character than a class based game and therefore cannot simply reroll if your character becomes severely gimped due to game mechanic changes.

[Atreyu]

Short people should have smaller hitboxes, taller people faster run speed. That is ALL that is needed.

Why do people have to get so damn pedantic about things like this? Why not mention that characters over 60 shouldn't be able to do basketry due to arthritis? Or black characters should get some sort of advantage during winter because it's easier to see them in the snow, such as a free snowmobile. Oh and for definite, heroes shouldn't be able to sit or lay on scrap piles to remove risk of impalement on metal stakes.




No...dont be silly B) I've fought against smaller and larger men than myself, and usually had a much harder time with the larger..and the idea wasnt to "restrain" them, it was to hurt/kill them, just like in game right? We're not PvPing to control a daycare.


No way! How many people have you hurt and/or killed then? Im eager to know.

[Vandali]

disagree 100%

if new content requires, or of balance implications require, 'balancing'...by all means it HAS to get done.

If the game is made correctly there shouldnt be a 'fotm'...since fotm usually revolves around new/and or overpowered abilities that are generally imbalancing. ie. a game should not try to make a treadmill of fotms.

if the sandbox is designed correctly the content is player created and driven and while 'new' content infusion is necessary to some degree; its introduction shouldn't be a regular occurrence.

In a dream world, but players will find that flavour and everyone else will copy, the choices will be either nerf or change. How will stealth archers be dealt with once bows are in, as thats what every man and his dog will be playing once its live.

[jokhul]

The fable of David and Goliath seems to be where most MMO's drew their combat system inspiration from, lol

You see, little David beat Goliath because Goliath had a bigger hitbox ! That large forehead made it much easier to land a killing blow with a ranged weapon (David used a slingshot).

Obviously, slings were OP and should have been nerfed. In fact, they must have been severely nerfed, because I can't recall any other major battles that were won by a guy using a slingshot...

[Deacon]

Short people should have smaller hitboxes, taller people faster run speed. That is ALL that is needed.

Why do people have to get so damn pedantic about things like this? Why not mention that characters over 60 shouldn't be able to do basketry due to arthritis? Or black characters should get some sort of advantage during winter because it's easier to see them in the snow, such as a free snowmobile. Oh and for definite, heroes shouldn't be able to sit or lay on scrap piles to remove risk of impalement on metal stakes.



No way! How many people have you hurt and/or killed then? Im eager to know.

I have 23 confirmed kills....while most were not H2H...a few were. I've more than my share of bar fights as well, where restraining them wasnt the idea...but hurting them was. In your eagerness to try and disparage me, you seemed to overlook the hurt part of hurt/kill of my statement.

as far as the part where hit boxes and run speed is only difference needed...it is your opinon...which holds no more weight that the others presented here.

[YamiOkami]

I have 23 confirmed kills....while most were not H2H...a few were. I've more than my share of bar fights as well, where restraining them wasnt the idea...but hurting them was. In your eagerness to try and disparage me, you seemed to overlook the hurt part of hurt/kill of my statement.

as far as the part where hit boxes and run speed is only difference needed...it is your opinon...which holds no more weight that the others presented here.

/doubt

[Atreyu]

I have 23 confirmed kills....while most were not H2H...a few were. I've more than my share of bar fights as well, where restraining them wasnt the idea...but hurting them was. In your eagerness to try and disparage me, you seemed to overlook the hurt part of hurt/kill of my statement.

as far as the part where hit boxes and run speed is only difference needed...it is your opinon...which holds no more weight that the others presented here.

Nice. What do you do to get the kill in your hand to hand fights? Snap of the neck? Or the more impressive five pointed palm exploding heart technique?

[Haunt]

especially if the advantages and disadvantages are significant (like carry weight, weapon reach, and run speed).

The developer has said that this is a feature that will get added so you either ignore that and go for immediate gratification or you plan for it and make your character knowing a change is coming. This is not a change that is going to surprise you or catch anyone off guard. You know it is coming, deal with it now or quit your bitch'n later.

I ran around a halfling size pker all through my Beta experience. I like it, but I also will not like being slower, weaker, or have a shorter reach later. So for live I have rolled a slightly taller then average person for balance. I also made choices to my STATs with the future in mind (I want to be able to tame animals someday). I am sacrificing benefits now, for rewards later. If they let everyone respec after implimenting the change they said was coming, then I am being punished for playing "gimped" now while waiting for the change.

Live for the moment or plan for the future? I am planning for the future.

[Armand]

Nice. What do you do to get the kill in your hand to hand fights? Snap of the neck? Or the more impressive five pointed palm exploding heart technique?

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/4382/kenshiro.gif

Planning for tomorrow?

No offense to Jooky, but we can't even plan properly for today at the rate things are being changed.

[Deacon]

Nice. What do you do to get the kill in your hand to hand fights? Snap of the neck? Or the more impressive five pointed palm exploding heart technique?

hmmm...I see where this is going...so I'll say this last thing about it.

Yeah, I'm an old guy. I served Recondo SOG MACV. when I say hand to hand, it means no rounds fired....like bayonet or Kbar, not actual bare hands.

@Yamiokami...your belief is not required, or even important to me.

[Viper66]

SOG MACV... loved working with you Deacon.. Marine Recon... BTW,, smaller people you can throw farther...lol

[noiseed]

Its not the meat, its the motion ;]

[jumpshot]

prob not good business to force a player reroll (with only one toon) to try the 'new stuff'.

I think those believe changes "force" them to reroll expose shortcomings in themselves, not in the game.

[Armand]

I think those believe changes "force" them to reroll expose shortcomings in themselves, not in the game.

Are we typing in the same post here? No one's suggested having to reroll over anything minor. When the playing field is altered beyond a point where you can properly cope, then you're left with very few options.