Trade with tribes beyond the impenetrable mist.

[aliksteel]

This is from the Features List, Under the "Evolution" area of the features.

Trade with tribes beyond the impenetrable mist.

I have questions,
Does this mean that we may be able to trade with unknown NPC tribes that are not in-game?

Are is this more like a way for to spend, or make money without dealing people inside the game?

Will there be new area's opened up for players to start with, And some how hire an NPC to make the runs that we can not because of the mist?

Very lost as to how or even what that line means. :huh:

[WillBingham]

I hope there will NEVER be be money in this game. If money ever does come into play the "Gold Farmers" will not be far behind.

[Eusi]

Does this mean that we may be able to trade with unknown NPC tribes that are not in-game?

Are is this more like a way for to spend, or make money without dealing people inside the game?

Will there be new area's opened up for players to start with, And some how hire an NPC to make the runs that we can not because of the mist?

My understanding is that over time there will be other areas introduced into the game from other parts of the world in the form of expansions, and with that will come the ability for existing tribes to trade with tribes located in these new areas.

How that will work I don't know, but I would imagine that by that time, we will have developed the necessary technology to have some sort of currier system in place.



I hope there will NEVER be be money in this game. If money ever does come into play the "Gold Farmers" will not be far behind.

I hate Gold Farmers as much as you, but the introduction of money is both an exciting prospect for me as well as vital to the development of any civilization. In my opinion, game or reality, an economy can only develop so far by using strictly a goods for goods bartering system. Not to mention the idea of hitting master crafter and helping the devs develop money is great. Get my avatars face on some billz. :p

[Xsyon]

Does this mean that we may be able to trade with unknown NPC tribes that are not in-game?

Yup. It means this. :)

The idea is to have trade totems representing tribes beyond the mist as a means of introducing new things into the game.

[aliksteel]

Thanks for the reply, I remember you telling us this a long time ago, Well a few months ago at lest.

Sounds good to me, Carry on my good man ;)

[Kitsume]

There are other economies besides currency based, but for practical purposes, currency is the easiest system.

Barter is ok, but has limitations. What if I don't need what you are offering?

Gift based works only if everyone pulls their fair share.

There are others as well, but eventually some sort of currency would emerge, be it logs, leaves, bottle caps, metal medallions or paper. The real trick is to not have currency easily added into the economic system, as it is in most MMOs with drops from mobs.

Personally I think it would be great if tribes could designate their own currencies, then we could have currency exchange rates between different tribes. Tribes who produce quality goods would have better exchange rates than tribes which produce little. Eventually a dominant currency will take over a region, based on tribe and/or alliance influence.

[Jadzia]

Xsyon wrote:

1) Buildings have different access levels. You can share access with friends.

Storage containers can be kept in buildings.

2) Lore isn't very developed for the Prelude, but we have some interesting plans for this...

3) Currency is lootable. We will have banks in the near future.

4) Melee. Evolving to archery, soon. Evolving to magic in the future.

5) Skills go to a master level of 100. Beyond that, you can keep building your skill but it becomes very difficult.

Seems we will have currency.

[bruisie159]

Currency is not required for succesful trading. Check out the game " a tale in the desert" to see how. a large amount of different resources are available all stocked by a clan called "the goods". They use a virtual currency that does not really exist in game to value items according to stock level (demand) anyone can take any item - have it converted into its virtual value - aand "buy" something else of equal value.

For example in atitd 100 charcoal may be the same value as 1 ruby or 15 glass bottles if there was 10000 charcoal in stock. but if someone comes and buys half the charcoal it would then require 200 charcoal to buy 1 ruby or 15 glass bottles. this is of course a dynamic system that changes with supply and demand.

A dedicated tribe would be required to run the "warehouse" but in atitd no money ever changes hands but u can trade anything for anything pretty much

[WillBingham]

Kitsume wrote:

Personally I think it would be great if tribes could designate their own currencies, then we could have currency exchange rates between different tribes. Tribes who produce quality goods would have better exchange rates than tribes which produce little. Eventually a dominant currency will take over a region, based on tribe and/or alliance influence.

I generally agree with your ideas and thoughts or atleast the spirit of the ideas. This time I will have to say NOOOOO!(Sorry LOL) I do think your idea would have merit if EVERYONE played as part of a tribe. But, there are many of us that do not plan on joining a tribe and if your idea came into fruition here is what would happen:

Player A: (logs into Tribal vent) Hey guys guess what I traded for last night?

Player B: (Player A's Tribe mate) What???

Player A: 1732 of the Flying Elfeses (Fictional Tribe Name) coins they have GREAT value we can live for 3 months off of that.

Player B: A month ago that would have been OK but, the 3 Flying Elfeses (Fictional Tribe Name) that did all the crafting left to go play The Sim's 6 (The please let me get to a bathroom version)
and now they are not worth anything.

Player A: ........................ $@%$@*$)* &^&%^)*)& ^(*&^& $#$#*&^ ...........................

-OR-

I was just killed and this is what they got:

3 Hopi Scorpion coins
6 Shinra Dolphin coins
2 BAC Skull coins
7 Templar Fang coins
4 Shrimps
ETC..........

Now as a Solo player that has done you no harm why would you want to put me through that? :lol:

[Kitsume]

:laugh:

True, but Medieval Europe had hundreds of different currencies. In the USA, until there was a standard currency around the 1860s, each state had it's own. Until the 1930s, Banks could issue their own 'bank notes'.

But from all indications, we will have dollars, hopefully there will be some mechanism to prevent a player from continuously rerolling to build up a cache of cash. Maybe your starting money is limited by account?

[Pino]

WHY NPCs??
The game does not need NPCs!!

All you need to survive, can you making self or in a another player City trade.


Crafting stuff for NPCs to making money??
If so, Xsyon would be no better than Mortal Online.

The players stand in the foreground and not the NPCs with their endless trade bags!
(NPCs / Cities for tutorials, ..., ... is ok but not for trade) Take a example of "Haven and Hearth"





(Sorry for my very bad english :blush:)

[Deacon]

I didnt even realize there'd be currency. I figured tribes would trade for what was important to them...like 5 zippers for 60 rivets type of bartering. The tribe leaders would decide on what was needed most, and deal/barter with other tribe leaders for fair rates of exchange. Or possibly even services...like we'll escort your merchant to Shinra city for 10 rubber scraps (shoe soles).

But I guess it'd be hard to tax items, as opposed to currency for towns/tribal areas.

[Shrimps]

I personally don't think currency will be effective in a game world not dominated by NPC's.

Even in Darkfall NPC's run everything and it requires a gold sink to make any item or to buy anything from the many traders.

Unless this game ends up being full of easily accessible NPC's I don't think the currency they choose will be very dominant over bartering at all.

But at this point nothings set in stone and we'll see how it turns out when we start getting into all that.

Edit : Also our currency would not be called Shrimps, it would be called something more streamlined and elegant, like Shrimpenheiguhousenfeist. Rolls off the tongue no?

[joexxxz]

If currency will be in game, then I will set the standard for currency. JK
10 grass - - - > = 20 Shinra coins.
10 large metal = 30 Shinra coins... lol
and so on.. If u dont like it, bite it then. :P

For example:
If 10 grass takes about 100 seconds to produce, then
(100sec / 20coins) = (5sec = 1 coin)
It means, anything i do, convert those seconds into coins, and thats how much it should cost... Just my thought

If u scavange for something, and let say on an average it takes 10 mins to find that item.
10min * 60sec = 600sec.
600sec / 5sec = 120 coins..
that item then should cost about 120 coins...

TIME = MONEY

[Pino]

Even in Darkfall NPC's run everything and it requires a gold sink to make any item or to buy anything from the many traders.

Darkfall and Fallen Earth can not be compared with Xsyon.
These type of games are just stupid PvP games and nothing else.
"Sandbox games" no, not for me.

Some do not understand "sandbox" in Xsyon!!

Plays first "Haven and Hearth" and you will see real Sandbox.
Many die in the first few minutes because they forgot to make food.
(They know not what Sandbox) :P

[Ashanti]

Hi everyone, I find this topic very interesting and would like to interject my thoughts, if I may ...

I think the obvious outcome to currency and an eventual economy in Xsyon will be dictated by the simple concept of "supply and demand"

In other words, I don't think the economy will be something that any of us can simply define, and "poof," thus it shall be. I think it will be more like, as Xsyon evolves, we, as tribes or individuals, will naturally become in need of certain resources or items, and we will exchange whatever we have of value to the another, to acquire said resources or items.

As to the question of currency dropping as loot from animals and such, this may simply be due to the fact that at some time before the apocalypse there was currency, and as such, it is sometimes found via loot, or even perhaps as found treasure via exploration in remote locations.

This does not mean that, at this time, in our current world and our current situation, currency will have any value. It does, however, offer us another option in developing a new Xsyon economy, should we, as a emerging society, decide to go this route.

The eventual outcome may well be that we ignore currency all together, and found currency will be worth nothing more than finding New York City subway tokens.

For the sake of brevity (because we all know I can write walls of text Ie., witness the Nomad recruitment thread :laugh: ), I don't think we need to concern ourselves with the economy at this time. The economy will be something that will naturally evolve as a result of necessity. A tribe or individual will need, or find value in, a resource or item; they will seek out another tribe or individual who has said item aplenty, and exchange it for another resource or item that the opposing tribe or individual finds valuable.

Where currency may eventually come into play is a scenario were a tribe or individual has stockpiles of a rare commodity, resource or item. That tribe or individual could then establish a monetary system where they will accept coins in exchange for their goods. Because they have now established "value" for those coins in the form of it being an acceptable exchange for said rare commodity, others will now be in the market to acquire those coins because they know they will be able to conveniently exchange said coins for said rare commodity. In an effort to acquire those coins, these tribes or individuals will then also decide to exchange their own goods and merchandise for said coins, hence the establishment and reinforcement of an acceptable currency.

Ok, so let me stop now because I can write for ever. Just couldn't resist the topic and thank you for reading :cheer:

[Xsyon]

The original plan for currency was the use of dollars that would come with each player account and could be found scavenging.

The 'evolution' of currency was to add several types of objects such as bottlecaps, buttons, beer tabs, etc. that could be stacked in large amounts in a player's pocket slots.

Tribes could then assign one of these as an official currency for their tribe, but it wouldn't be as complex as creating Shinra coins or 'Shrimps'. ;)

Tribes could also assign exchange rates.

Right now, after discussing with players and reading threads such as this one, we might stick with bartering at the beginning, and later add the tools for tribes to designated currencies if they wish to do so, as mentioned above.

We'll soon see once the tribe totems are in and players start trading more.

[WillBingham]

Xsyon wrote:

The original plan for currency was the use of dollars that would come with each player account and could be found scavenging.

The 'evolution' of currency was to add several types of objects such as bottlecaps, buttons, beer tabs, etc. that could be stacked in large amounts in a player's pocket slots.

Tribes could then assign one of these as an official currency for their tribe, but it wouldn't be as complex as creating Shinra coins or 'Shrimps'. ;)

Tribes could also assign exchange rates.

Right now, after discussing with players and reading threads such as this one, we might stick with bartering at the beginning, and later add the tools for tribes to designated currencies if they wish to do so, as mentioned above.

We'll soon see once the tribe totems are in and players start trading more.

That is what I like about this game. We CAN have a voice in what the end product will be. Not to mention that starting with a barter only system is not only more realistic but, is actually easier on the devs (no currency issues right off).

I am still not sure if I would want to have a pocket full of these:

http://a.imageshack.us/img706/9278/shrimpscoin1.png

[Xsyon]

I am still not sure if I would want to have a pocket full of these:

The more you mention those Shrimp coins, the more I like the idea. :P

[Snake]

@ashanti: ah well, I love your 'walls of text', it on the one side trains my English :P and on the other side makes me feel this will be not just an MMORPG but 'another world' because this 'perception is reality' is the foundation of those social concepts you write about and work on. Very nice, thanks and keep it rockin ;)

And concerning content: I find the idea of a currency developing through 'finding it useful' (or not) and having a tribe producing a rare and exchangable item to make barter easier (like currencies developed originally) and so that this tribe/city has a kind of "coinage prerogative" very nice.

Cheers.

[WillBingham]

I do have a feeling that if there is a "Currency of the Realm" it would look something like this:

http://a.imageshack.us/img409/8839/washoewasher1.png

[Cracky69]

I love the idea of just letting it develop.

I'm more than happy to trade 4 metal decorations for a golf club or whatever. To be honest I can see a useful, but fairly rare item becoming the predominant form of currency as such as item will be most widely traded.

To be honest, I think if the market is left entirely free we're more likely to end up with the Buckle - perhaps - as our standard unit.

Please though, lets just find out how it goes. If the economy never really gets started then a standard note or token can be added later.

Ashanti, I loved your post. This game intrigues me more and more every day.

[Ashanti]

Thank you Snake and Cracky for your kind words :)

Ok, so now this topic has my imagination overflowing with excitement and I would like to share with everyone lol.

It would also be nice if in addition to bartering channels, we could also be able to set up individual merchant stalls, and tribal merchant stalls if tribes so desired, to display our available resources and merchandise to interested barters.

Barterers could then click on our merchant stalls to view our available merchandise and counter with items/merchandise that they would like to trade for our displayed resources and merchandise.

These merchant stalls could be available in various sized backpacks so that we could be mobile and carry our merchandise, or stationary stalls, in which we could use to store and display more items, but they would, of course, be stationary.

With the backpacks, all interested barterers would have to do is right click on us and pick the "Backpack" option, and a list of our resources and merchandise for bartering would be displayed for the interested barterer to view. All the barterer would have to do then is initiate a conversation and make a verbal offer, and an exciting bartering negotiation would then ensue, followed by a successful exchange.

Backpacks and merchant stalls would of course be crafted by skilled crafters in the various skills. And their worth would increase according to the amount of available slots in the backpack or stall, and the strength and quality of the particular backpack or merchant stall.

But that's not all lol.

As far as merchant stalls are concerned, we could also go as far as implementing where these merchant stalls could be located, how they are manned, and their relative security. In other words, depending on our wealth, we could also have the option of manning them ourselves, hiring others to man them, or purchasing/crafting a reinforced theft[proof merchant stall, so that we could place them in the wild unmanned, and all a random barterer would have to do is PM us to negotiate a barter.

And ... and ...

ok, I'll stop ...

... for now? :laugh:

[Snake]

rofl, I can see her vanishing in the sky leaving a trace of bubbles with ideas and those ideas talk to each other because they feel kind of alive and produce while talking to others again brand-new ideas of ideas and so on and so on ... On the floor two people are standing and one asks the other: Where do all those bubbles come from? And the other answers: Oh well, that is a great mystery and they whisper in the mist that there is a mysterious bubble-fay inspiring them all and if one falls on your head you suddenly have an idea. :P

[kiwibird]

ATitD used to have currency but it turned out to be a big flop. It just didn't work, players could literally make their own form of currency, with the goal of one currency dominating. No other player was able to duplicate one players currency so it couldn't be ripped off - at least easily.

In the end, what resulted in the currency standard was 'The Goods'. A system where a blade of grass equals the same amount of a piece of alloy metal if the supply and demand saw it happen.

They would judge the good on its value, ask players to trade to them this item (so they themselves didn't have to collect everything) sell their "Goodscript" to the player, and they could spend it at any time.

So if the game just started, and grass was just being listed at the store, The Goods would be buying grass for a high amount to the player, selling it others at the higher rate, and as more players gave grass the buying price would decrease, along with the buying price, but it would be a balance of real supply and demand.

When rare items came about, it was fair game to see lots of million dollar mushrooms - mushrooms where used in research, produced acids and lots of other interesting things.

So a system (in game or not) was created, in this situation it is a external system, so that players don't lose the goodscript and they can keep track of the currency floating around.

[Shrimps]

WillBingham wrote:

Xsyon wrote:

The original plan for currency was the use of dollars that would come with each player account and could be found scavenging.

The 'evolution' of currency was to add several types of objects such as bottlecaps, buttons, beer tabs, etc. that could be stacked in large amounts in a player's pocket slots.

Tribes could then assign one of these as an official currency for their tribe, but it wouldn't be as complex as creating Shinra coins or 'Shrimps'. ;)

Tribes could also assign exchange rates.

Right now, after discussing with players and reading threads such as this one, we might stick with bartering at the beginning, and later add the tools for tribes to designated currencies if they wish to do so, as mentioned above.

We'll soon see once the tribe totems are in and players start trading more.

That is what I like about this game. We CAN have a voice in what the end product will be. Not to mention that starting with a barter only system is not only more realistic but, is actually easier on the devs (no currency issues right off).

I am still not sure if I would want to have a pocket full of these:



dude.....yes.. I love it. I can see Shrimpenheiguhousenfeist dominating the economy in no time flat.