Another long rant from the rantmaster

[REVKhA]

Ok so i have not posted in a while ... or should i say ranted?

Here's a few thing annoying me about this ... project (because it's not a game it seems)

Why is this 'sandbox' such a great virtual world and had absolutely no feeling of a game to it? This project feels like a great sandbox but there is no fun to it. There's like 3 animals and very poor combat and very little role playing elements.

When will Xsyon become a game and not some stale virtual sandbox ? When will things have attributes and conditions and pop up information ? When will i be able to find skill books to learn ? Does it matter if i know all skills since there is a soft cap we still need each other in the long run.

Why does it take 15 minutes to reach the mist and there is no point of exploring ? i still cant rest to regain stamina and exploring is pointless since there is nothing to explore because of the mist.

When will this game get the much needed content to make things diverse and immersible as well as having rpg elements ? Is this Xsyon project a mmorpg with open sandbox mechanics or just a virtual world with few limited roles ?

When will things matter ? when will rain take your fire out ? when will winter make grass a rare ressource ? when will there be rare content and secrets ?

Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, Karma and Luck... where is that feature ?

Over 50 skills ? there is barely 20

When can we make tribe quests for us to have something to do ? Why are buildings so useless and only aesthetics ?

Only items that are important are tools... weapons have no condition or attributes... no way to maintain, enhance or repair them and they have no stats. Same for all clothes and such...

Why does this project feel so far from becoming a game that feels fun to play ? it feels like it's only a sandbox with skills to grind right now. You cannot teach others or learn skills from books you find. There is no way to build and spec properly.

When can I expect this project to feel like a game ? or is it just a virtual sandbox with no gaming or rpg elements ? I do not expect this to launch anytime soon and hopefully after the holidays this game gets some gameplay elements to make this whole true open sandbox a game as well and not some virtual world with no meaning.

[Foreseer]

+1, I too want to see a few features added that will keep players around longer then 3-12 days. It been getting lonely fairly quickly.

[trenixdecease]

Even with so many features not released, this game definitely has potential. The atmosphere and user friendliness is definitely worth the while. However, this game isn't even released yet. The only real reason of buying Xsyon now is to find bugs, make suggestions, and to support an awesome idea. It's pretty funny though, people always push the developers to release the game as soon as possible, but when they do, they then complain that there is too many bugs and it's unplayable. Give them time, so once it's released, you will get what you anticipated for.

[joexxxz]

Yes, they are working hard, so lets be patience. Everything what REVKhA said will be in the game. Just at some point :)

[Digby Caesar]

<insert facepalm.jpg> Why is it some people lack the common sense to realise that a game/project cannot be literally done overnight (unless your an AI from 200 years in the future). It takes time to implement things, bug hunt, bug fix, design etc. Have patience like the rest of us, Keep thinking about suggestions, Help the Dev's hunt them Bugs.

[Cheyene]

I have to agree with the OP in most cases but i know that a game needs time too.. In my pers. opinion we need atm only some new things that ppl log in.

I think about stuff like open world for pvp, the tribe safe zones suck or maybe the possibility to easy declare war to other ones to bring a little action in. For combat i would wish to lock the camera because the far zoom out in a combat makes it look like Diablo 2. Best would be a first person view in combat mode... about the attributes on armor or weapons, we dont need to see them atm but they should have it so a grass armor should protect less than a bone for example (dont know if its allready in).

Me and my guildmates come from Mortal Online, some of us since first beta days...ther was mutch less ingame than xsyon now gots but combat was funny and exciting, this was enough for us to play it for months so i think good hard pvp gives the devs enough time to add more features and new customers that will support them with money.

New creatures would be nice too, maybe humanoids in a dangerous zone with good loot so we get a point of interesst (wich are very less ingame atm).

Most of my guildys where about 1 week in xsyon, after this everyone gets bored, i know it should not be the problem of the devs because we allready have purchased the game but at this point we dont want to give positive feedback to our other players so they wont buy for now (what devs should care about).

I hope xsyon will be a sucess because there are not that mutch games out like that and i am sure there is a big community (ex UO ..) waiting for another great sandbox game.

[aliksteel]

A rant from the member of the community that has quit the game so many times I lost count.

I want to know,
Was this rant ment for the people playing the game? Did we not know that parts of the feature list was not ingame yet? OR was this an attempt to sabotage the game, In trying to make people not want to buy/play the game?

Not sure what your agenda is, But it's getting tiresome.

[Xx1327]

ahem*
beta
/thread

[SOFWarrior]

<insert facepalm.jpg> Why is it some people lack the common sense to realise that a game/project cannot be literally done overnight (unless your an AI from 200 years in the future). It takes time to implement things, bug hunt, bug fix, design etc. Have patience like the rest of us, Keep thinking about suggestions, Help the Dev's hunt them Bugs.

It might have something to do with the fact that this game was supposed to be released back in April - you know, back when they were trying to drum up money for the game with preorders.

Then, they delayed it 1 month because in the developer's professional opinion, that's all the time he needed to complete and release the game. Now, eight months later, the game still doesn't have many of the features it's supposed to have. Obviously, the developer's ability to gauge what his own game needs was horribly, HORRIBLY wrong. Not just a little off - A LOT OFF, and the game still isn't anywhere near ready with the planned features. I'm sure that, by maintaining the illusion that release was imminent, the money kept coming in.

Not to worry - when the game finally does launch, and is a train wreck, they'll just attempt to pass it off as "Prelude".

In short, I agree with the OP. So far, this isn't a game, it's work disguised as a game. They've forgotten one key element of a game - FUN. Xsyon doesn't have it yet.

[trenixdecease]

It might have something to do with the fact that this game was supposed to be released back in April - you know, back when they were trying to drum up money for the game with preorders.

Is that so? So why were they telling us not to promote the game for them?

[trenixdecease]

Not sure how you figure this disproves what you're implying it disproves. Wouldnt it do the opposite?

No, they said that if they wanted to promote the game, they'd do it themselves rather than ask for us to do it for them. Another words, if they really wanted to rack up money with pre-orders, they would of. It's not like this game hasn't progressed so I don't get what's all this bitching about.

[Pandamin]

When can I expect this project to feel like a game ? or is it just a virtual sandbox with no gaming or rpg elements ? I do not expect this to launch anytime soon and hopefully after the holidays this game gets some gameplay elements to make this whole true open sandbox a game as well and not some virtual world with no meaning.

This is a valid question.

I enjoy hanging out in Xsyon but where is the hook?
I'm playing the game now and I hope to play come release day.
Though I'm past the days of playing a sandbox where the 1st question of new players revolves around, "So what am I supposed to do here, where's the game?".

[trenixdecease]

This is a valid question.

I enjoy hanging out in Xsyon but where is the hook?
I'm playing the game now and I hope to play come release day.
Though I'm past the days of playing a sandbox where the 1st question of new players revolves around, "So what am I supposed to do here, where's the game?".

Just like every game, Xsyon will be about competition which we don't see much of yet. So far there is no land disputes, pvp system, good combat system, and even resource depletion. Even some meters for our characters don't work yet. It's no wonder why it's lacking attention.

[MrDDT]

This is a valid question.

I enjoy hanging out in Xsyon but where is the hook?
I'm playing the game now and I hope to play come release day.
Though I'm past the days of playing a sandbox where the 1st question of new players revolves around, "So what am I supposed to do here, where's the game?".


I couldnt agree with this more. Give them a few small goals to focus on, then they can fend for themselves. But right now they are dropped on a world and have no idea how to do anything, what to do, nor where to go.
Plus the tools they are given they cant even do anything with normally unless getting help from others.

So to me its like, I install the game then log in, make a toon using stats I have no idea how they will effect me. Then I start up and go "What do I do now?" Normally they will wonder about, try a few things but after that there isnt much to do. No focus, no drive nothing. Only the people that really want to tough it out will keep playing and not be upset.
Plus as a new toon, you are very easy to get lost or and tired, unable to feed yourself. It can be very disconcerting.

[Luculus]

Revkha - I agree with your questions. I think the basic answer is "they are coming", but there has been quite a bit of unforeseen problems with server performance etc. A release date of last April was horribly misplaced considering the size of the Dev team and the fact that so few of the features had been tested. I have no problem with that personally, and I was also very wary after the BS that was/is Mortal Online. I would totally understand anyone who is not happy with the delay.

The only bit I disagree with is "what is there to do?". You can build your own society. From scratch. Terrain, housing, rules, laws, hierachy, quests etc. That is feckin amazing for those of us that are into that sort of thing. I can't think of another game that comes close to that level of sandbox except perhaps EVE.

[MrDDT]

Revkha - I agree with your questions. I think the basic answer is "they are coming", but there has been quite a bit of unforeseen problems with server performance etc. A release date of last April was horribly misplaced considering the size of the Dev team and the fact that so few of the features had been tested. I have no problem with that personally, and I was also very wary after the BS that was/is Mortal Online. I would totally understand anyone who is not happy with the delay.

The only bit I disagree with is "what is there to do?". You can build your own society. From scratch. Terrain, housing, rules, laws, hierachy, quests etc. That is feckin amazing for those of us that are into that sort of thing. I can't think of another game that comes close to that level of sandbox except perhaps EVE.

Wurm, and A tale in the desert by far.

Also, there are some that are able to push past the basic need to be told what to do, but its not all that many. Most need to be at least shown a little of what they can do, then they will catch on. Leaving it up to the new player to figure out what they want to do in a sandbox is hard. But you give them a few tools, and show them a few small tricks and off they go. Next thing you know they are making huge sand castles and having fun.

But if you just sit them in sand with water sprayer, bucket and knife. Then tell them have at it make some stuff. They will be bored in mins.

[aliksteel]

I'm confused, Do we want a sandbox, or something somewhat like a sandbox?

What you are talking about now is not having your hand held(Being told what to do). Which is surprising, As I'm a carebear and I don't want my hand held. The unknown is what this game is supposed to be about. At lest I thought that it was about the unknown.

So what do you want, An NPC to tell you what to do and how to do it?

[mrcalhou]

I'm confused, Do we want a sandbox, or something somewhat like a sandbox?

What you are talking about now is not having your hand held(Being told what to do). Which is surprising, As I'm a carebear and I don't want my hand held. The unknown is what this game is supposed to be about. At lest I thought that it was about the unknown.

So what do you want, An NPC to tell you what to do and how to do it?

Please define your sandbox. It is clear to me that your definition of a sandbox would be different than my definition of a sandbox. I define a sandbox as a game that gives players different ways in which they can advance in the game while also not making them follow a pre-defined path in order to do so. I also consider games that have an open world environment that lets me complete tasks at my pace to be sandbox. This does not mean that a game cannot have an over-arching story, but rather that I can go about playing the game without having to do the story stuff until I want to. In a nutshell: A sandbox is a game that gives the players options. Some games I consider sandboxes include: Eve-Online, Fallout 3 and New Vegas (I haven't played the first two), The Elder Scroll Series, and the Grand Theft Auto series.

In my opinion, having NPCs does not take away a game's ability to be a sandbox. Neither does having a sort of tutorial to introduce players to some of the mechanics that they will run into.

[REVKhA]

Please... if you think i want to make a bad name out of this project you are insanely wrong. I gave away a music album for free (no license) that album too more than a year to complete... not counting the years of experience. Sure it wasn't a tribal oriented album but a space ambient project (good for the night) but the intention is there. I want this project to survive more than you can imagine (Neocron 3 is ways off , Black Prophecy is pretty boring, cannot find any good games out there).

What i meant is that i want to play this game but there is no game yet . The tools, items and buildings have no statistics , no condition, no quality, no information about them. The armor has no resistance buffs against anything , there is no way to spec properly except with trial and error which makes no sense. There needs to be some basic rpg elements for this game to feel like a game , i do not like tradeskilling that much, i'm more of an explorer and killer/hunter as well as someone who like repairing, upgrading, maintaining and such, and right now those functions are nowhere near the acceptable state.

When there is more animals and pop up information in the char creation (i am against a 3rd party manual, we need all the information in game since the devs want us to find about all the secrets... it needs to be centralized and focus should be in game, not in some third party pdf but i do not condemn people who did that manual at all) the game might feel like a game. There needs to be a way to look at item information. Buildings should 'buff' tradeskills and such. There needs to be a label system on containers. There needs to be a full logistic aspect to the game (carts, horses, etc).

There is a whole lot still missing to the game, while i might be ranting , you should see it as somehow being impatient to play the full Xsyon. I just hope they can pull it off, this game needs a lot more work and i'm starting to wonder if they have enough cash to finnish this huge project. You have to realise that these features they announced is why people have joined. There is a lot to do still and this game is a huge project but we are getting there sooner or later it's just that the pace of improvement is somehow not regular and it seems that progress stales sometimes.

The combat is somehow acceptable right now but will eventually need a major overhaul sooner or later. I just hope that the missing features get implemented real fast so that the game feels like a game and people will play it more regularly because right now there is no point to grind , there is so much of the big picture missing. I can run for 15 minutes and i am at the mist. There is no mystery to the game yet because it feels like a shoebox more than a sandbox. I want to go and explore and fight some special beasts and bring back what i gush out of it to my tribe. I want to make roads and connect tribes to diplomacy and roleplay.

This current economy is almost a joke... everyone will farm for various worthless currency without any having a real function. It seems that old official statements (dollar = currency and people start with 50 or 100 iirc) are no longer valid and that things change all the time. I am open to this but with a game that's supposed to have people 'discovering' things there is also a major problem with all these sudden changes.

I just want the game to be clear and simple but with such a complex rpg/rts/fps project there is a whole lot of hardcore elements to it and that's why i am here because true open sandbox games are not simple although we can simplify the rules and objectives.

Looking forward to a couple of big updates where i can find the missing features and then the current project might start to feel like a real game and not a virtual world with no meaning. I guess time will tell , like it did in the past 9 months. My guess is that this game will start to really shape up in mid-summer 2011 and maybe feel complete in about 9-12 months from now if this current pace does not change.

I am here to stay but with magic and religion having priority on guns and ranged combat i felt like this game will turn like Wurm when they implemented religion , it totally destroyed the game and created a very theme park feeling and destroyed the true sandbox feeling. Let us create the lore with proper tools, don't impose some shitty themepark elements like magic and religion. Implement content and skills and let us create the lore with item lore made by players , we should be able to write a description to items.

This game needs more functions like right click on items with an info box with condition, weight, quality, and any other stat. It should not only be visual ( rotten food, rusty knives, broken tools , etc) but it should also have an information box.

I just want this game to be balanced in terms of gameplay functions and events. We NEED natural disasters, migration, and lots of random scripted events. Depleted grass in the winter forcing players to stack up. I am not afraid of players not doing teamwork , i am affraid that this game never gets completed at all.

Hopefully you guys can see my point of view. I want this project more than anything because other games are PURE JUNK. Please do not let this project die . Thank you

[MrDDT]

I'm confused, Do we want a sandbox, or something somewhat like a sandbox?

What you are talking about now is not having your hand held(Being told what to do). Which is surprising, As I'm a carebear and I don't want my hand held. The unknown is what this game is supposed to be about. At lest I thought that it was about the unknown.

So what do you want, An NPC to tell you what to do and how to do it?

Im not sure how giving someone a few quests at the start to help them along is telling them what to do or holding their hands.

Instead of dropping them off on a blank paper of a world and saying here are some tools to make brushes, then you have to figure out how to make colours, then you have to figure out how to paint with those brushes and colours.
You could say, here is a quest on how to make your first colour, here is a quest on how to use a tool, here is a quest on how to paint something small.

You tell people that the world is open for them to do anything in and dont tell lead them to do anything, you will find they will just do something else (not in game).

[aliksteel]

It's almost like two people are using the same account, REVKhA. Your OP made me think that you was doing all you could to destroy the game, Then this ....


Please... if you think i want to make a bad name out of this project you are insanely wrong. I gave away a music album for free (no license) that album too more than a year to complete... not counting the years of experience. Sure it wasn't a tribal oriented album but a space ambient project (good for the night) but the intention is there. I want this project to survive more than you can imagine (Neocron 3 is ways off , Black Prophecy is pretty boring, cannot find any good games out there).

...... Link to comment (http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/2648-Another-long-rant-from-the-rantmaster?p=36023&viewfull=1#post36023)

I just want this game to be balanced in terms of gameplay functions and events. We NEED natural disasters, migration, and lots of random scripted events. Depleted grass in the winter forcing players to stack up. I am not afraid of players not doing teamwork , i am affraid that this game never gets completed at all.

Hopefully you guys can see my point of view. I want this project more than anything because other games are PURE JUNK. Please do not let this project die . Thank you

I understand you and now am with you on most of this. And With all the new post you have started, I understand that you do want the best for the game. Thank you for making me understand. This REVKhA is the guy that I hope to be running way from, Trying to stay alive with you right behind me trying to slice and dice me to death, Good;)times to come.



Please define your sandbox. It is clear to me that your definition of a sandbox would be different than my definition of a sandbox. I define a sandbox as a game that gives players different ways in which they can advance in the game while also not making them follow a pre-defined path in order to do so. I also consider games that have an open world environment that lets me complete tasks at my pace to be sandbox. This does not mean that a game cannot have an over-arching story, but rather that I can go about playing the game without having to do the story stuff until I want to. In a nutshell: A sandbox is a game that gives the players options. Some games I consider sandboxes include: Eve-Online, Fallout 3 and New Vegas (I haven't played the first two), The Elder Scroll Series, and the Grand Theft Auto series.

In my opinion, having NPCs does not take away a game's ability to be a sandbox. Neither does having a sort of tutorial to introduce players to some of the mechanics that they will run into.

No we are much alike, My point was about .... and Forgive me if your not one of them, people on the forums when talking about combat want to say that a sandbox is open and no one should be able to hide behind any type of game feature to save them. Then a few of you started talking about game quest for new players, I found that funny. Any way I am with you on some of that. Don't want NPC's.




Im not sure how giving someone a few quests at the start to help them along is telling them what to do or holding their hands.

Instead of dropping them off on a blank paper of a world and saying here are some tools to make brushes, then you have to figure out how to make colours, then you have to figure out how to paint with those brushes and colours.
You could say, here is a quest on how to make your first colour, here is a quest on how to use a tool, here is a quest on how to paint something small.

You tell people that the world is open for them to do anything in and dont tell lead them to do anything, you will find they will just do something else (not in game).

I think like a short instance that you go to after you make your toon, Would work nice. Say a short five to ten minute game tutorial. Then from there you pick your spawn point. I'm not hardcore sandbox, But in the last five or so years so many games came out and I felt like I was chained to them as they pushed me down a long hallway that I could not get out of. I have a fear that when you start adding a little hand holding here and a little there, That you may push it over into that type of game. But if it took us having NPC's and quest to have a good game population, I will be for it. I want like it, But I want this game to work.

[Shrimps]

I think the first problem is that people keep referring to this game as a sandbox. Anyone who has ever played in a sandbox as a child can tell you this is more of an insult than a compliment. A sandbox is a box full of dirt with 2 broken toys, ants, and lots of cat poo that sits in the sun that parents use to keep their kids busy for an hour. Honestly if you're going to label it I would call it more of a freeform MMO than a sandbox.

As for the OP Revkha obviously has schizophrenia and his two personalities both know his forum password. It's the only reasonable explenation for his wild ranting mood swings.

Don't judge the game too much as it is. There are well over 1k pre orders and less than 1/5 of that are in game playing. So it will be easier to figure out what you want to do once people start getting into it and tribes start building up and the political landscape starts to form itself.

[MrDDT]

REVKhA,

I might disagree with some of the minor points in here (like magic in Wurm messing it up etc) but I see your point about the game not being fun and not feeling like its even close to being ready to be fun.

I log in, to test stuff, and really I cant even do that because I dont know where to start? It feels to me like there are so many major things that need to be completed (Im not talking about 100%, Im talking about working and fun) that I dont know where to start.

Combat?
PVE?
Crafting?
GUI?

These are MAJOR parts of the game, which you can break down into MANY things yet they are lacking in so many ways.
Who here can tell me combat is fun? Really? No skills/powers/moves? Dodging and Parry dont work well at all (parry I dont even think works at all).
Crafting really is boring as boring gets. Moving the tools each time for no real reason. No idea what starts are on the item you DO make. Make a bone armor out of deer? Well is that better than One out of human bones? Or Bears? Who the flip knows. Cant even see the weight. Does it effect movement speed? Or attack speed? Comfort? Food or water use? WHO KNOWS!!!

PVE? You are lucky if you find something to attack (or it attacks you most likely even deer). But when you do its over in 2 seconds. You die? No biggie, you come back all your stuff, no exp loss nothing (not that Im aware of), with 1/2 your life to beat on the NPC you just die too again, likely not even healed up.

GUI is a nightmare. Feels like Im fighting it more than using it. Moving 1 item at a time, bags that you cant rename or really move around. Dropping takes no time but dont try to open something or pick up something on the ground, thats going to take about 5 seconds EACH TIME. Bags close when you open up another bag, you cant move from 1 bag to another on the ground. Seeing effects on the screen, you cant see blood, or even really if you hit someone (sorta looks like they could have just been moving or maybe dodged). Jumping is buggy as all heck.

Im just listing a FEW of the MAJOR things that are messed up and lacking in this game.

Do I think the game can be fun? Of course I wouldnt be typing this if I didnt. Im not looking for a finished game, Im looking for something thats close to being fun. So far in the last 8 months, Ive seen very little work in the "fun" area. Really its almost the same game. Sure there have been updates and changes. Mostly minor (even though I know it took a LOT of work), but its going to take many more updates and changes at this rate to have a game thats worth playing.

1k people is a joke for an MMO. If this game is released and there is only 1k people playing it at the start, you will find the world bare and empty at first, and getting worse over time.

[Pandamin]

I think like a short instance that you go to after you make your toon, Would work nice. Say a short five to ten minute game tutorial. Then from there you pick your spawn point. I'm not hardcore sandbox, But in the last five or so years so many games came out and I felt like I was chained to them as they pushed me down a long hallway that I could not get out of. I have a fear that when you start adding a little hand holding here and a little there, That you may push it over into that type of game.

Actually the bounderies between a sandbox and a themepark have nothing to do with there being quests or npc's.

One of the differences is that in a sandbox the game is open ended.
Though even there we could debate for hours.
Themeparks and sandboxes share a lot of the same elements.
We can say Xsyon is more like a sandbox then it is a themepark, but for now thats all anyone could say.
Its only after launch that a game can transtition from "playing pretend" to an actual "sandbox".

Words like ' holding hands, carebears denote styles of play.
A sandbox game can't magically turn into a themepark just by adding a tutorial or an npc.
So these ideas of 'I'm afraid this game might turn into That game because they add X or Y are silly.

Personally I feel that if you need a manual or a tutorial to do it, then it is badly designed.
Its also not said that a sandbox has to throw you into the deep end from day 1.
There is no reason why a player can't experience a linear progression that fans out into the typical sandbox tree design. Though it might be too late for Xsyon to implement that.

At this point I think what the player in Xsyon needs (IMO) is clear immediate goals.
(not the same as a tutorial)

It needs more game and less simulation.

Though I'm not trying to knock down Xsyon it is fun, for now.
Its just that I know that "sandboxes" need a certain critical mass of players to work and I'm still quite unsure as to how Xsyon hopes to hook those people.

I'm afraid it always comes back to the same idea, where is the game?

[MrDDT]

There is no reason why a player can't experience a linear progression that fans out into the typical sandbox tree design. Though it might be too late for Xsyon to implement that.

At this point I think what the player in Xsyon needs (IMO) is clear immediate goals.
(not the same as a tutorial)

It needs more game and less simulation.

Though I'm not trying to knock down Xsyon it is fun, for now.
Its just that I know that "sandboxes" need a certain critical mass of players to work and I'm still quite unsure as to how Xsyon hopes to hook those people.

I'm afraid it always comes back to the same idea, where is the game?


You took the thoughts right out of my head.

This is where I feel this game is lacking the most. Where is the game?

Im not asking for a how to instructions for new people. Im asking for them to have short goals at the start to get them into the game so they can figure out what the game is about. Dropping them into it with nothing but "Have at it you can do anything you want" isnt the way to go.
Giving them a few goals to start off with, show them the way, after that they will find a place to fit in and start creating and doing.

[aliksteel]

At what point do you stop? OK say you add some NPC's, And add the starter quest, How much is to much? At what point do you say that it's just another MMO?

Not trying to be a pain in the ass, But I do worry that when you start going down that road, And you start bringing in some of the WOW type players who starts yelling for more to do. How do you deal with that? You can't tell then that its not that type of game, Because it is already that type of game to a point when you add NPC Quest into the game.

[MrDDT]

At what point do you stop? OK say you add some NPC's, And add the starter quest, How much is to much? At what point do you say that it's just another MMO?

Not trying to be a pain in the ass, But I do worry that when you start going down that road, And you start bringing in some of the WOW type players who starts yelling for more to do. How do you deal with that? You can't tell then that its not that type of game, Because it is already that type of game to a point when you add NPC Quest into the game.

Why cant you tell them?
First off this and WOW are not even remotely close. WOW has classes, and static world.
This world is ever changing, there are no classes there are nothing like that.

I think the point you stop is when you feel that people are able to grasp that they can make their own goals instead of being fed what to do. Like in WOW, you are pushed down a storyline, told to level to max level (what is that 85 now?) and you can see all the world that the devs made.
Xsyon is about making yourself in ways you want to do it. Some people will want to be builders, others will want to be fighters. Some will want fame, others will want items, others will want to just make a dent on the world.
WOW you are told what to do the whole way, you have a main story line. Here the players make the storyline. You go make a town and get it taken by XYZ tribe. That goes down in history of the game and you were a part of it good or bad. Now those tribes are sworn to fight each other. Only later to have another bigger tribe beat on them so they must make an alliance to hold off that tribe, until that tribe breaks up....... It goes on and on. Thats just part of the fighting. Not even talking about building cities that make a trade network or clearing the land so you change something from a desert to a place with rivers and fields.

These things cant be done in themepark MMO's. Sure some of the things in some of the games. But this game has so much sand to play with. You will be able to MAKE your own quests in this game. No story line to follow, no main theme.

Key is really, I doubt the devs could put in enough now to make it a theme park. They would have to add long huge story lines to the game. Even then, I dont see that as a bad thing. As long as they keep the sand in there to play with Im cool about it. Sand in this game is mostly the changing of the world, open PVP, and how there are no classes.
If they start putting in classes, and making it so you cant change the world or limit the PVP to tribe wars only. Then we have major problems. None I really see happening. PVP is said to be open, but its not now. Which is understandable because having FFA PVP without risks would be bad.

[mrcalhou]

I don't see how having more things to do makes a game less of a sandbox. Having NPC quest givers that have their own agenda (like side-quests from single-player games) wouldn't make the game linear. If the game world is open to players, regardless of their levels and stats, and the players can play the game and still progress in the way that particular player wants, then that's a sandbox.

Eve-Online has NPC quest givers, but players can mine, become pirates, wage territory wars, be merchants, whatever. In all of these cases the player is progressing in the game at their leisure, and through their personal abilities.

This video is how I think of a sandbox game:
http://play.eveonline.com/en/home.aspx


I think the point you stop is when you feel that people are able to grasp that they can make their own goals instead of being fed what to do. Like in WOW, you are pushed down a storyline, told to level to max level (what is that 85 now?) and you can see all the world that the devs made.
Xsyon is about making yourself in ways you want to do it. Some people will want to be builders, others will want to be fighters. Some will want fame, others will want items, others will want to just make a dent on the world.
WOW you are told what to do the whole way, you have a main story line. Here the players make the storyline. You go make a town and get it taken by XYZ tribe. That goes down in history of the game and you were a part of it good or bad. Now those tribes are sworn to fight each other. Only later to have another bigger tribe beat on them so they must make an alliance to hold off that tribe, until that tribe breaks up....... It goes on and on. Thats just part of the fighting. Not even talking about building cities that make a trade network or clearing the land so you change something from a desert to a place with rivers and fields.

I think this is a good way of putting it.

[Pandamin]

At what point do you stop? OK say you add some NPC's, And add the starter quest, How much is to much? At what point do you say that it's just another MMO?

Not trying to be a pain in the ass, But I do worry that when you start going down that road, And you start bringing in some of the WOW type players who starts yelling for more to do. How do you deal with that? You can't tell then that its not that type of game, Because it is already that type of game to a point when you add NPC Quest into the game.

I'm not quite sure why that is even a concern.

I don't see any situation where you would add elements to the sandbox where at some point you transition into a themepark. It just does not work that way.
Adding a quest does not make a sandbox a themepark.

Something being a sandbox has no relation to there being npc's, quests, open pvp or even predefined content.

Furthermore why would a "WoW type" player be interested in a game like Xsyon?
How could Xsyon even convince such a player to come and play? Xsyon is a sandbox, WoW is a themepark.
Both fruit but 1 of them tastes funny.

If such a player does come into Xsyon and he is not happy Xsyon has no obligation to deal with that or even respond to it for that matter. Do you see EvE trying to mimic WoW?

Adding some basic structure for the new player experience is not a bad thing.
Nor does it fundamentally change Xsyon.

I think the 1 thing Xsyon should avoid at all cost is to tip over into a 2nd job type of gameplay.
Sandbox good, 2nd job simulation baaad. :)

[aliksteel]

Thank you MrDDT, mrcalhou, Pandamin, and Shrimps. All had good points, And I understand where you are coming from. Like I said, I worry. I thank you for making some good points, You have gave me some things to think on, And ever how it goes, I hope when the game goes live we all have fun.

[joexxxz]

@mrcalhou.
Why in the world would u want to have a NPC quests in this game?
Xsyon said specifically. THIS GAME HAVE NO NPCS !!!!!!!!!!!

This game is for total player economy.!!!!

[Jadzia]

@mrcalhou.
Why in the world would u want to have a NPC quests in this game?
Xsyon said specifically. THIS GAME HAVE NO NPCS !!!!!!!!!!!

This game is for total player economy.!!!!
NPC quests have nothing to do with game economy. A quest reward is not necessarily an item or money, it can be skill point, a new recipe, learning a new skill or whatever.

[VeryWiiTee]

Well, he might not have the best argument, but he is right Jadzia.
- For those who yet haven't -and it sounds like A LOT of people, read the FAQ- About and Feature list on the official webpage, should head over and either read it more thoroughly or actually read it for the first time I think. A lot of these 'things' you are missing, have already been announced to be incoming, it takes time to code. Just try to make a simple website through oh let's cut you some slack and say Microsoft Office Frontpage (as it fills out a lot of the coding.) but only through coding not drag and drop.


So to me its like, I install the game then log in, make a toon using stats I have no idea how they will effect me.
... Did you ever consider to open your manual and read how they affected you? Jesus ...... It was my first reaction when I saw that I needed to choose my attributes.

I have to disagree a bit with you Revh, weapons do differ now, both in damage and swing time.
The rest is coming a long as the game is coming a long.

If people cannot figure out what to do in a sandbox, which is to create your own little world in a virtual world. Then they ought to go back to their theme park world and play in a linear progression.
If you do not lack imagination it won't take you long to have fun - but as stated it requires friends as this is a social game not a "Single Player MMO" (so start making them :)?)

Edit:
Oh that sounded incredibly annoyed.. I gotta stop that.

[MrDDT]

... Did you ever consider to open your manual and read how they affected you? Jesus ...... It was my first reaction when I saw that I needed to choose my attributes.



Sure did, can you please tell me the effect that STR has in combat? Or with axes? or with a blade? or with any other skill? All I see is that it has some effect but not how much at all or anything. Even after playing I still dont even know the effects of these. These stats you are stuck with for a long time (right now they dont even change at all). So making a choice at the start of the game on stats that you have no idea how they will effect you or your real play style yet is pretty major.

It would be like picking a class and you know nothing about. You can pick A B C or D. Based on which one you pick, you will be stuck with them for a long long time in the game. We dont know what effect any of them really have on you, but they will have effects some how.

[REVKhA]

Well, he might not have the best argument, but he is right Jadzia.
- For those who yet haven't -and it sounds like A LOT of people, read the FAQ- About and Feature list on the official webpage, should head over and either read it more thoroughly or actually read it for the first time I think. A lot of these 'things' you are missing, have already been announced to be incoming, it takes time to code. Just try to make a simple website through oh let's cut you some slack and say Microsoft Office Frontpage (as it fills out a lot of the coding.) but only through coding not drag and drop.


... Did you ever consider to open your manual and read how they affected you? Jesus ...... It was my first reaction when I saw that I needed to choose my attributes.

I have to disagree a bit with you Revh, weapons do differ now, both in damage and swing time.
The rest is coming a long as the game is coming a long.

If people cannot figure out what to do in a sandbox, which is to create your own little world in a virtual world. Then they ought to go back to their theme park world and play in a linear progression.
If you do not lack imagination it won't take you long to have fun - but as stated it requires friends as this is a social game not a "Single Player MMO" (so start making them :)?)


That's some mad bullcrap there ... information needs to be centered ingame not in some 3rd party .pdf . There is no excuse for that stuff missing the information should pop up (tooltip) ingame. Nough said.

[mrcalhou]

@mrcalhou.
Why in the world would u want to have a NPC quests in this game?
Xsyon said specifically. THIS GAME HAVE NO NPCS !!!!!!!!!!!

This game is for total player economy.!!!!

Sure, sounds good in theory. Hope that works in practice! Leave everything up to the player and then you get Face of Mankind. Total freaking flop. You should check it out. You might like it.

Now, Eve-Online on the other hand, is a very successful game. The player-base is actually increasing in that game. Can you believe it? An MMO where the player-base is increasing! Why? Because it works. The economy works and it's very, very player driven. It also has NPCs. Oh noes! What is this madness!? A real working sandbox with emergent gameplay that is created by player choices and the game also has NPCs too? Impossible! But wait, what's that? It isn't? Nope, not impossible. And unlike Darkfall, Mortal online, and Face of Mankind, it actually works really, really well. Sure those other games have great ideas but they all have critical flaws. Lack of content is one of the most prominent. The economies aren't good either.

As long as nothing is mandotory (Eve-Online is end-game the moment you leave the tutorial as far as I'm concerned), then I see no reason not to have story-lines, and quests/missions with different objectives, and God, especially the holy-grail of MMOs: A variety of different things to do.

[mrcalhou]

If people cannot figure out what to do in a sandbox, which is to create your own little world in a virtual world. Then they ought to go back to their theme park world and play in a linear progression.
If you do not lack imagination it won't take you long to have fun - but as stated it requires friends as this is a social game not a "Single Player MMO" (so start making them :)?)

This is the great fallicy. Lack of content does not make a sandbox. Lack of content makes a dead game. It does not make a game a sandbox just because the players are thrown into the game with no direction or with no helping hand. Making a game user-unfriendly does not make a sandbox. Giving players things to do makes a sandbox. Giving players choices and options makes a sandbox. Helping players get acclimated to the controls and the basics doesn't make a game more of a sandbox, but it certainly is good desgin.

In his article for this week, Magic: The Gathering Lead Designer Mark Rosewater wrote: "Scott said the most valuable advice was one he got from Gleemax (yes the alien brain in a jar that runs R&D): "The goal of a game designer is not to outwit the players."" I think that this is a great way to look at things. There's nothing wrong with giving players tools, but it's better when you give them tools and show them how to use them.

[aliksteel]

Not sure, But we may be http://www.mini2.com/galleries/data/521/beatingadeadhorse.gif

[Foreseer]

mrcalhou: Really don't understand why Eve is being compared to this game at all. Really, space combat / ships / planets / ext. = hack slash / earth forming / ext.
Don't see the comparison; games are nothing alike. Eve is successful due to ship customization, to being a space game, and being an entirely original mmorpg. Xsyon won't be like eve it will be an entirely different genre imo.

Correct comparison's imo have been: Darkfall, UO, & Wurm. UO being the one I know best.

~~

Now, as far quest go. Ultima didn't have any real quest either tmk(Again; I only played 1998-2001 then F2P server's using UOR remake of those years before changes). You could at most: Escort NPC's to dungeons for money, or find Treasure Maps & Messages in the bottle. Which many players didn't bother to do. Although they were a sure fire way of income. Treasure maps & motb could be an interesting addition but don't see any real need.

Ultima online didn't however have an quest system players could manipulate as will be featured to present player maintained reward system. Don't know why people are speculating and complaining when you don't know how whether this will be fail. To me, it sounds great and will easily help get new players into the game.

Lack of Information: I agree there is a lack of information in regard to how stats effect individual skills, and combat. However don't see a need for it to be published in game as a #. It should be available in the manual, on the website, and with a general term stating this item is of greater or greatest quality.(FI: Ultima online items stated that they were crafted by a Grand Master or that they had a level of magical property.)

Mmm hopefully what i said has any relevancy.

[mrcalhou]

mrcalhou: Really don't understand why Eve is being compared to this game at all. Really, space combat / ships / planets / ext. = hack slash / earth forming / ext.
Don't see the comparison; games are nothing alike. Eve is successful due to ship customization, to being a space game, and being an entirely original mmorpg. Xsyon won't be like eve it will be an entirely different genre imo.

Correct comparison's imo have been: Darkfall, UO, & Wurm. UO being the one I know best.

~~

Now, as far quest go. Ultima didn't have any real quest either tmk(Again; I only played 1998-2001 then F2P server's using UOR remake of those years before changes). You could at most: Escort NPC's to dungeons for money, or find Treasure Maps & Messages in the bottle. Which many players didn't bother to do. Although they were a sure fire way of income. Treasure maps & motb could be an interesting addition but don't see any real need.

Ultima online didn't however have an quest system players could manipulate as will be featured to present player maintained reward system. Don't know why people are speculating and complaining when you don't know how whether this will be fail. To me, it sounds great and will easily help get new players into the game.

Lack of Information: I agree there is a lack of information in regard to how stats effect individual skills, and combat. However don't see a need for it to be published in game as a #. It should be available in the manual, on the website, and with a general term stating this item is of greater or greatest quality.(FI: Ultima online items stated that they were crafted by a Grand Master or that they had a level of magical property.)

Mmm hopefully what i said has any relevancy.

I compared this game to Eve because both games are player-driven sandboxes. The respective settings are irrelevant to any points that I have made. The only thing that is different enough to matter are the way combat and movement are handled, but that doesn't affect anything that I have been using as the basis of my arguements. It would certainly be a fallicy on my part to say that the setting doesn't have any impact on getting a player's interest, but in terms of what the design teams seem to want players to be able to do in the respective games, I would say that both games are really similar. That's why I was interested in this game. To me, it seemed like a twitch-based version of Eve-online: Player-driven crafting economy, territory conquest, emergent and mostly unscripted gameplay (I know this game has NO npc quests, but Eve's quests don't tie into a storyline, maybe just a small arc, though some of the writing made me go "WTF"). Whether I'm playing as a ship shooting cannons, or a human beating something with a fishing pole, it doesn't really matter. Different settings, same gameplay goals.

[VeryWiiTee]

I still liek you.


That's some mad bullcrap there ... information needs to be centered ingame not in some 3rd party .pdf . There is no excuse for that stuff missing the information should pop up (tooltip) ingame. Nough said.

Well so many whine about stuff that are being implemented or under construction. Instead of whining about such things, they ought to read up. No the feature list is not completely imported yet.. Thought we had stated that loads of times now. It is also being imported into the game as the CONTENT gets CODED and FINISHED.
That includes Tool tips so, instead of complaining, be happy that you even -got- some sort of guidance in the manual. 'nough said.
You sound like you expect it all to happen over night, over a week or over a month. It doesn't. So stop taking forth the subjects that have been discussed over and over again? You like the game, great =).. But this is getting tiresome to see on the forums. I'd rather see less important things that is written down somewhere, be pushed back and have some more content pushed forth, such as quests, tribe systems and combat mechanics. Especially decay would be a very good thing to introduce soon to quell some of the 'we lack stuff to do' as then you'll have to keep yourself supplied, because your housing (if you have any tribe), your tools, armor, weapons and food will decay. It'll force you to search for other players to repair, replace etc.
But you said that already :). So it isn't that I disagree all that much with you, actually I agree with quite a lot of what you said..

Did I mention content? I just said, if you don't know what to do in a sandbox, you ought to go back to your theme park where you are guided.
"Can't think for yourself." (Hey I'm a woodcrafter, I need wood. Where can I get some.. Oh there!. *Chopping* Now what can I do with these logs. *Opens crafting* aah I can make some poles. I'll do that and see what they are.), yell to the world and hear if anyone can help you.
We only have a scarce game population at the moment, but at least we have a shout now, so you can actually contact people and band together easily now. That opens up A HELL lot of content :)? You can suddenly terraform, build houses etc. No atm, all we can pretty much do is to terraform/craft/hunt/explore. Which is. Oh in line with the About on the website. Yay!

The About. (And we have moved quite far from this scenario anywho)

The players of the Prelude begin as scavengers, hunters and gatherers..

What did you expect in a game that tries to follow a concept of evolution. A completely polished game and total war from the beginning?!

And I doubt we will ever agree on what a sandbox is and isn't. So can we drop the issue permaybehaps :)?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/206045 (you get why after this thread, even though I agree with the top posters..)

[Gamefreak]

A game should be bug free and have its features polished regardless of its concept. By release, that is.

Anything other than this makes little sense to me.

[Chile]

You are correct OP with the things that don't seem finished; hence the game is not yet finished. I ordered back in April 2010. I jumped in for about 3-4 weeks and played around. I realized this was a game that had so much potential and knew it would take time so I left. I had recently come back a few days ago and what I can see from June, things have changed.

The changes made since June of 2010 show me that the devs are progressing and their ideas for Xsyon are becoming, if ever slowly, a reality. The long list of great 'game' ideas listed is starting to get checked off.

I know like you I want to play in this world as listed in the features now. I also know that a concept like this takes time and the devs don't have the cash like EA (cough), Blizzard, Sony or Bioware has. You like me were won over with the features this game will have. Even if they are coming slowly they are at least starting to appear as stated. A suggestion!

Play something else for a bit. Take a few weeks off and then get ready for Prelude. Will Prelude solve everything? No, at least not at launch, but those features listed will get in and the game will gain momentum and recognition. Don't you want to be one of the few to say, "I've been here since the beginning! I saw what potential this game had. I wish more MMO's were like this."

I do.

[Weeks]

You are correct OP with the things that don't seem finished; hence the game is not yet finished. I ordered back in April 2010. I jumped in for about 3-4 weeks and played around. I realized this was a game that had so much potential and knew it would take time so I left. I had recently come back a few days ago and what I can see from June, things have changed.

The changes made since June of 2010 show me that the devs are progressing and their ideas for Xsyon are becoming, if ever slowly, a reality. The long list of great 'game' ideas listed is starting to get checked off.

I know like you I want to play in this world as listed in the features now. I also know that a concept like this takes time and the devs don't have the cash like EA (cough), Blizzard, Sony or Bioware has. You like me were won over with the features this game will have. Even if they are coming slowly they are at least starting to appear as stated. A suggestion!

Play something else for a bit. Take a few weeks off and then get ready for Prelude. Will Prelude solve everything? No, at least not at launch, but those features listed will get in and the game will gain momentum and recognition. Don't you want to be one of the few to say, "I've been here since the beginning! I saw what potential this game had. I wish more MMO's were like this."

I do.

they would be much farther along if they didnt have to recode everything

[Chile]

they would be much farther along if they didnt have to recode everything

You are right but it is what it is.

[Weeks]

Sure did, can you please tell me the effect that STR has in combat? Or with axes? or with a blade? or with any other skill? All I see is that it has some effect but not how much at all or anything. Even after playing I still dont even know the effects of these. These stats you are stuck with for a long time (right now they dont even change at all). So making a choice at the start of the game on stats that you have no idea how they will effect you or your real play style yet is pretty major.

It would be like picking a class and you know nothing about. You can pick A B C or D. Based on which one you pick, you will be stuck with them for a long long time in the game. We dont know what effect any of them really have on you, but they will have effects some how.

actully there a guide on what stat does what. but right now some of it isnt working like xsyon said

[Weeks]

You are right but it is what it is.

of course i cant blame jooky for it but it looks like th recode has gone very good