Skill degrade concerns

[Deacon]

- Stat gain and decay system. This is a gradual gain and decay based on what skills you use. The system is designed to adjust your stats over time and has limits to prevent advantages from grinding.

I have concerns about this. I have never had a gain in hunting or any combat skill, in spite of killing and harvesting many many creatures. I'd hate that because I'm not constantly fighting, or just a non-crafting PKer, what skills I do manage to gain in those areas, will be dwindled because I am busy helping my tribe do constructive things around the camp.

[Gamefreak]

I completely agree with Deacon.

I have never once gained a single combat skill for killing an animal or person. The skill would decay faster than any of us could maintain or improve it.

[Xsyon]

What was implemented is a stat gain and decay system (strength, agility, intelligence etc.). Your stats shift based on skills that you use (not necessarily skills that you gain skill in).

Skill decay will work in a similar fashion, but it will take into account skills gained using skill points when you level up. If some skills are not gaining fast enough, these will be balanced out.

Both stat and skill decay are minor and meant to create balance instead of having everyone trying to grind to max everything out.

[Meziahn]

Skill decay isn't really that bad of a thing as long as the time in which said skill will decay without use is moderate... Any other game i've played with skill decay, you never really notice a decrease unless yougo AWOL for a week or more.

[vier]

What was implemented is a stat gain and decay system (strength, agility, intelligence etc.). Your stats shift based on skills that you use (not necessarily skills that you gain skill in).

Skill decay will work in a similar fashion, but it will take into account skills gained using skill points when you level up. If some skills are not gaining fast enough, these will be balanced out.

Both stat and skill decay are minor and meant to create balance instead of having everyone trying to grind to max everything out.


Any chance of the formula you are going to use?

[Gamefreak]

Ok, I feel the need to post on this update.

I fail to see the logic behind how this is going to offer a solution to the grind involved in the game. In fact, I would go ahead and say that in my opinion, it is going to make it worse. It's already a meticulous grind as it is, but forcing us to have a constant battle with the decay system isn't making what is there any better. The bottom line is that if we strive to be useful in any aspect of this game, we are going to have to spend hours grinding. Having the stat decay system in is just going to make us spend more time on stuff we don't want to do in the first place. I mean, who wants to sit here and make grass baskets and bricks all day? I'm not going to judge you if you do, however, I doubt many of the people in this community would actually like to do something so monotonous.

I just don't see how this update "fixes" grinding, because after approaching it from all logical viewpoints I've come to the conclusion that it does not.

Unless you meant that it forces people to work together, as people would only have the availability to be proficient in one aspect of the game at a time. This is, however, not what you said.

[Gandhi]

What was implemented is a stat gain and decay system (strength, agility, intelligence etc.). Your stats shift based on skills that you use (not necessarily skills that you gain skill in).

Skill decay will work in a similar fashion, but it will take into account skills gained using skill points when you level up. If some skills are not gaining fast enough, these will be balanced out.

Both stat and skill decay are minor and meant to create balance instead of having everyone trying to grind to max everything out.

That means, it will be not a grind-game like Darkfall, in which you were able to max almost every skill out with sepending enough time for grinding?

Because in Darkfall, the developers also promised a kind of soft cap to prevent the game of becoming a grind-ame. But that didnt work.

I would hate to see Xsyon turning into a grind-game. In my opinion the best thing would be a hard skill-cap like in UO.

[JCatano]

That means, it will be not a grind-game like Darkfall, in which you were able to max almost every skill out with sepending enough time for grinding?

Because in Darkfall, the developers also promised a kind of soft cap to prevent the game of becoming a grind-ame. But that didnt work.

I would hate it, so see Xsyon turning into a grind-game. In my opinion the best thing would be a hard skill-cap like in UO.

It didn't work, because they never finished the mechanic of soft cap/skill decay. It was never turned on. The skill management commands were ingame via /help (not working, obviously), but I'm quite certain that once they noticed how fast everyone was macroing and exploiting their way far past the soft cap curve in those first few months, they were like: "Oops. Now what?"

The commands were taken out of /help about 4 months after launch.

Skill decay needs to come with a soft cap. Once at the soft cap, any skill points earned over it should decay in a quick fashion. This basically acts as a hard cap. Or... Just put in a hard cap to make it simple.

Whatever happens, all points should count towards the cap. I have no idea if anything has changed with combat versus crafting skills, but every skill should be taken out of the same pool of points. It worked very well for Pre-NGE SWG. Players were either combat focused, crafting focused, or any style in between. There was rarely ever an "OMG I can't be a master of everything" post in those forums.

[Kinslayer]

I think that if someone wants to spend enough time grinding skills, they should be aloud to master many skills. But it needs to be made hard, and made to be a lot of work, so that it would turn most people off. As long as skill gain is "macro-proof", we dont want another Darkfall.

It shouldnt matter if combat and craft skills are in the same points pool, just so long as there is plenty of room to move. What I mean is, we dont want the point restriction of MO when we only have 1 character.

[Jadzia]

I think that if someone wants to spend enough time grinding skills, they should be aloud to master many skills. But it needs to be made hard, and made to be a lot of work, so that it would turn most people off. As long as skill gain is "macro-proof", we dont want another Darkfall.

It shouldnt matter if combat and craft skills are in the same points pool, just so long as there is plenty of room to move. What I mean is, we dont want the point restriction of MO when we only have 1 character.

Absolutely agree.

[mrcalhou]

I think having characters able to max any skill they want, but only being able to have the benefits from a few "active" skills at any one time is the best option. And make skills branch out into specalizations and sub-specializations so players can better differientiate themselves from one another.

As far as crafting. Have lots of crafting skills with branches and sub-branches and make it take a while to max any one particular branch, but have useful items through the leveling curve so crafters can actually sell their items.

[Gamefreak]

I think some of you have misunderstood what is being said here. There is not a skill decay, there is a stat decay. So you can have 100 weapon skill in something, and it will never decay. The stat it effects (strength, endurance, agility) will decay if you do not perform tasks that make use of the stats. For example, picking up a log would involve strength, running in bursts and distances would involve agility, and a result of combat and other strenuous tasks would result in fortitude increases.

With this system, if you perform abilities only respective to one stat, only expect that one stat to be high.

[Kinslayer]

I think some of you have misunderstood what is being said here. There is not a skill decay, there is a stat decay. So you can have 100 weapon skill in something, and it will never decay. The stat it effects (strength, endurance, agility) will decay if you do not perform tasks that make use of the stats. For example, picking up a log would involve strength, running in bursts and distances would involve agility, and a result of combat and other strenuous tasks would result in fortitude increases.

With this system, if you perform abilities only respective to one stat, only expect that one stat to be high.Im not concerned with stat decay at all. You'll find, that most things you do in game will involve 2 stats, so as long as you are doing stuff that you normally do, the stats you want to be maxed, will be maxed.

[Gandhi]

I think that if someone wants to spend enough time grinding skills, they should be aloud to master many skills. But it needs to be made hard, and made to be a lot of work, so that it would turn most people off. As long as skill gain is "macro-proof", we dont want another Darkfall.

It shouldnt matter if combat and craft skills are in the same points pool, just so long as there is plenty of room to move. What I mean is, we dont want the point restriction of MO when we only have 1 character.

I do not agree with that. I think i shoudlnt be possible to master many skills with spending enough time on grinding. Moreover combat and craft skills shold be in the same pool. If everyone can do everything there wouldnt be much need for specialized crafters. I think, that you should have to choose, if you want to be a fighter or a crafter.

[yoori]

I can't agree with you Gandhi, combat should be in separate pools. Crafters should be able to defend them selves and their tribe as well as fighters after all it's open PVP and you won't be able to avoid all the fights.

Besides someone who focuses on crafts won't be able to gain as much combat skills as someone who focuses on fighting, also combat requires player skill as well as in game skills.

[aliksteel]

Decay divided Grind Times Time Equals Diversity

There will be a soft cap on all skills, But even if your someone that can't play forty plus hours a week, I'm sure that we are going to be able to max out a few skills. Combat, Crafting, Fishing, What ever.

[Vandali]

I like it, it adds realism to the game. Skill and stat decay makes perfect sense, whats the point in just maxing something out because you can, then not using it for ages only to find your still a master at it etc. If your using something on a regular basis i doubt it will even be noticed.

One example of benefits outside of the game is when a player leaves and then returns, they then have a goal to reach again, rather than returning with all those skills that they raised before hand still in place.

[Kinslayer]

Hmm, Im not sure skills and stats will decay while logged out. Other games Ive played with skill and stat decay, they only decayed while you were in game, and not using them, if you were logged out, they wouldnt be effected.

I would like some clarification from Jooky there if we could.

[JCatano]

I can't agree with you Gandhi, combat should be in separate pools. Crafters should be able to defend them selves and their tribe as well as fighters after all it's open PVP and you won't be able to avoid all the fights.

Besides someone who focuses on crafts won't be able to gain as much combat skills as someone who focuses on fighting, also combat requires player skill as well as in game skills.

They can defend themselves if they choose to spend their skill points in that manner. It's a choice. A skill-based system should allow people to use most skills on a very basic level, anyway. You'd have them, but just wouldn't be very good unless points were invested.

Trade-offs give games depth with regard to interdependency, which affects the entire scope of things and creates a lot of metagame situations (a good thing). Without any of that, you may as well cut out all character development and just give us maxed characters from the start.

[yoori]

Spending skill points from leveling will be less relevant than skill gain form using skills(I guess). With softcap where it's harder to get next point with every point gain limiting to one pool with 3 skill groups is forcing classes into classless sytem. As I said someone how devotes themself to carfting won't be as good at fighting as hunter/bountyhunter or smothing like that. There's plenty of skills in these 3 gropus to focus on, no need to limit people to one skill/skill group.

[Gandhi]

So is there a softcap for all skillpoints or is there a softcap for each skillgroup?

[MoonDragn]

I hope skill/stat decay will be based on play time and not actual time. I would hate to take a vacation for a week and come back to find half of my skills/stats have decayed.

[yoori]

I think decay work only for play time and it should work that way.

For softcap you have to ask Jooky couse I'm not sure how it realy works.

[Kinslayer]

Im pretty sure I read that there is a softcap for each group. One for combat skills, one for gathering skills, and one for crafting skills.

[JCatano]

Spending skill points from leveling will be less relevant than skill gain form using skills(I guess). With softcap where it's harder to get next point with every point gain limiting to one pool with 3 skill groups is forcing classes into classless sytem. As I said someone how devotes themself to carfting won't be as good at fighting as hunter/bountyhunter or smothing like that. There's plenty of skills in these 3 gropus to focus on, no need to limit people to one skill/skill group.

There will be an investment number whether you see it or not. That's how a soft cap has to work. It needs to know when to slow down.

I didn't say anything about choosing from different pools. Hence, why I said all skills should be in the same pool. That way, you can make your own "class" and also have tradeoffs. If the skills are divided into separate combat and crafting pools, everyone will be an elite combatant and elite crafter. The overall metagame loses a lot if that is the case.

[Kinslayer]

I tend to agree that all skills should be in the one pool. As JCatano says, otherwise everyone will be a master combatant, and a master crafter. I dont mind if skills like running, jumping, swimming arent included in the cap, basic skills like these should be exempt.

[Saintbob]

I tend to agree that all skills should be in the one pool. As JCatano says, otherwise everyone will be a master combatant, and a master crafter. I dont mind if skills like running, jumping, swimming arent included in the cap, basic skills like these should be exempt.

agreed

[Gandhi]

I tend to agree that all skills should be in the one pool. As JCatano says, otherwise everyone will be a master combatant, and a master crafter. I dont mind if skills like running, jumping, swimming arent included in the cap, basic skills like these should be exempt.

Yes, i agree with that.

[Gandhi]

Perhaps Virtus or Xsyon could give us a statement, if the skills are all in one pool or not.

[yoori]

Well I want to hunt mutants for fun and craft for living, one pool is seriously limiting my character growth. I don't see fighter, crafter as separete professions,

I see pikeman, axeman, archer, toolsmith, weaponsmith, architect as separate professions and I REALLY want to be bow hunting architect that's why I chose classless skill based system.
I guess it can be one with one pool if you can master two skills and be proficient with supporting skills like masonry, hiding, doge, parry. I just don't like seperating fighting from crafting.

[Gamefreak]

I also agree with having all of the skills in the same pool, one should not be able to master every aspect of the game. The whole point is to have people work together, and if mastering everything is an option, what reason would people have for doing so?

Separate fighting from crafting is going to be essential in this game to ensure there is not one "superior" build.

[Niburu]

skill points for crafting and fighting need to be in the same pool. Otherwise we will see strong PVP tribes which can supply themself with the best items. This leaves players out who don't like or who are not so good in PVP. If you want to be a bad ass fighter with high stats in these paths you need to drop your self supply abilities and need to work together with dedicated crafters. also a good archer should be a bad meele player and a good weaponsmith shouldn not be able to craft the best armor.


Also i don't really understand these softcap stats decay thing because for me it means player who spend more time will have more stats.....i would like to see a hard cap and by doing things you can change your direction of playing everytime

[Badaboom]

So still no word on the skill decay rate?

[zettoz]

We can't all be MacGyver

[FabricSoftener]

from the description of how skill degrade works it almost sounds like what surging is in darkfall.
0-99 doesnt degrade 100 degrades on use for combat related skills.

I doubt its that extreeme but I bet its similar, just something to worry about at very high levels