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View Full Version : Leaders the time has come to discuss CURRENCY!



eightonefive
02-09-2011, 08:04 PM
So what do we have so far?
Dollars
Quarters
Pennies
Can Tabs
Bottle Caps

Who wants to step forward and start putting a value on these items so we can start using it as soon as they fix the stackable item bug?

Dontaze_Mebro
02-12-2011, 06:59 AM
Unless they can be used as ammo at some point you can keep your pre-war money. It's worthless to me... I trade in rivets, screws, nails, and such.

Sakho
02-12-2011, 12:11 PM
I think currency wont be important until the establishment of the civilization.

STAR_GOD
02-13-2011, 08:35 AM
race is on

Ikisis
02-13-2011, 08:51 AM
You will just be handing us resources we wont need money.

FabricSoftener
02-13-2011, 11:57 AM
I know whats in demand atm and I aint tellin :)

Xx1327
02-13-2011, 05:19 PM
I know whats in demand atm and I aint tellin :)

why post?

otomotopia
02-13-2011, 08:30 PM
Everything has value, but we don't have a price. Also, currency needs to be assigned a value. No value on units, no 'trade'. It's going to be so much fun to work with this during our time in Xsyon.

Grushenko
02-13-2011, 09:16 PM
I guess currency won't have the same dynamics all over the map. Also i figure that different currencies are going to be adopted on zones. Maybe the trading post (or a well organized tribe) in zone 777 will start to consider buttons valuable, so evryone in the sourroundings who want to have access to their goods will be forced to use buttons as well.
The same way i don't think that barter stuff is gonna be very successfull. Or convenient at least. If i have to travel to get my new shiny axe set, i prefer to go around as lighter as possible so i can have more chances to run from an ambush; or just cover more distance and resting less.

Well probably we could see courrency very soon and influent tribes will set the exchange rate. At least i hope so :P

Edit: sorry for my english hehe

otomotopia
02-13-2011, 10:10 PM
No problem. It was very articulate here. Most people won't put stock in 'buttons' until buttons have worth. Until then, its going to be barter. Then exchange rates will be set. Hehe, war may be declared over that too. /shameless PvP plug

kilrain
02-14-2011, 12:13 AM
Unless there is a value placed on money from the start as if by a government, we wont be using it any time soon. We will simply barter with goods that are usable.

Kroom
02-14-2011, 08:09 AM
We don’t need a “government” to assign value to a currency for us to realize the burden of carrying resources back and forth to complete transactions, trade of gathered resources amplifies this. I think due to transportation and in-game communications limitations currency will be adopted by players faster then expected. In addition, it’s ingrained in our RL cultures and I don’t think RP’ing can conquer that!

rixk
02-14-2011, 09:06 AM
There has to be one central figure who is trustworty to put a value behind currency.
Let's say that trustworthy figure says, that 1 button is worth 5 nails. Now player X comes to that trustworthy player, gives him 5 nails and gets 1 button. Now he can use the button and trade something with player Y, player Y can trade with player Z and so on. Without that trustworthy figure when the chain is broken, then the last person ends up with useless button and is missing something, that he traded for that button. But when that trustworthy figure is added to the "formula", then he can always go to that guy and trade this button for 5 nails.

Basically it all comes down to trust, but when you don't have a "bank" in the game, then you have to trust the whole server(which is impossible). With him you only have to trust the bank.

AlexTaldren
02-14-2011, 11:11 AM
There has to be one central figure who is trustworty to put a value behind currency.
Let's say that trustworthy figure says, that 1 button is worth 5 nails. Now player X comes to that trustworthy player, gives him 5 nails and gets 1 button. Now he can use the button and trade something with player Y, player Y can trade with player Z and so on. Without that trustworthy figure when the chain is broken, then the last person ends up with useless button and is missing something, that he traded for that button. But when that trustworthy figure is added to the "formula", then he can always go to that guy and trade this button for 5 nails.

Basically it all comes down to trust, but when you don't have a "bank" in the game, then you have to trust the whole server(which is impossible). With him you only have to trust the bank.

Incorrect. Economies form naturally based on the interactions and agreements between people. No currency should be established by the developers or by us prior to the game's launch. This is how things will work:

Players will discover what items are rare and what items are common. Players will also figure out the value of the various items. Eventually, we'll be trading for specific items, which will become a form of currency. For example, players may discover that everyone needs nails. Therefore, players will start offering nails for specific items until before you know it, it is known that a spiked club is worth 150 nails and a set of bear bone armor is worth 500 nails, etc.

The best part about a system like this, one that naturally evolves and changes, is that the currency players use could be based on the region of the map you're in. Tribes and players close to the lake might use something more valuable as currency, such as a resource not easily found on the coast. Meanwhile, players farther in the mainland and mountains will prefer something else. You could very well see 2-10 different mainstream currencies at the same time, with exchange rates and more.

In summary... agree on a currency now? No way. Let the market (i.e. the players through trade) decide.

rixk
02-14-2011, 11:24 AM
Didn't you just describe barter system.. if someone mentions currency, for me it means money. If someone trades goods(clubs) for raw materials(nails), then it is barter system. And yes, that doesn't need any outside interference.

AlexTaldren
02-14-2011, 02:33 PM
Didn't you just describe barter system.. if someone mentions currency, for me it means money. If someone trades goods(clubs) for raw materials(nails), then it is barter system. And yes, that doesn't need any outside interference.

The definition of currency does not equal "money." Currency can be anything from bottle caps (Fallout) to Gold coins (WoW) to paper bills (real life) to nails as I mentioned in my example. Just because it is a resource found in the world doesn't mean it can't be considered a currency. Of course, a resource wouldn't be considered a currency until a large portion of the community accepts it as a means of placing value on other items.

FabricSoftener
02-14-2011, 02:52 PM
The definition of currency does not equal "money." Currency can be anything from bottle caps (Fallout) to Gold coins (WoW) to paper bills (real life) to nails as I mentioned in my example. Just because it is a resource found in the world doesn't mean it can't be considered a currency. Of course, a resource wouldn't be considered a currency until a large portion of the community accepts it as a means of placing value on other items.

It will be very intresting to see how this evolves even more so without golbal chat.
it really doesnt matter if everyone says 'bottle caps' are the currency if I can get them easily and what I really need is nails.

I am fairly sure what is needed will change over time and if you study the game and what the community is doing at any given time determining what good resources to horde will be a fun exercise and hitting that sweet spot is not something I would advertise anyway :)

rixk
02-14-2011, 11:01 PM
The definition of currency does not equal "money." Currency can be anything from bottle caps (Fallout) to Gold coins (WoW) to paper bills (real life) to nails as I mentioned in my example. Just because it is a resource found in the world doesn't mean it can't be considered a currency. Of course, a resource wouldn't be considered a currency until a large portion of the community accepts it as a means of placing value on other items.

This is barter system.. someone who needs nails, will trade for nails. The need is what drives people in situations like that. If woodworkers will accept wood, then for tailors. Money is universal, it has value for everyone.

And in the gold/bottlecaps would be totally useless in those games, when the "central" bank (read: npc vendors) wouldn't guarantee you certain amount of services/goods for your gold. I say it again, money is worth nothing on its own, thats why you can't compare them with Xsyons economic system. Read a bit about the role of central banks (Federal Reserve in US) and how the money is being "made".

otomotopia
02-15-2011, 06:34 AM
This is awesome, and the reason why there has been no listed currency. We have to go through the same process as our ancestors did to develop an economy, with or without represented wealth. Obviously its easier to carry around a bunch of little things then your entire inventory of goods, but when its accepted that carrying around all your buttons is equally dangerous to carrying around all your goods... that's the key tipping point for a legitimate currency. This isn't going to be solved any time soon, but we should address it when we have goods that we are trading.

Kroom
02-15-2011, 08:38 AM
Money is NOT universal, never was and still isn’t today...

“Tribes” of today use different forms of currency and have the ability to be exchanged for others “tribes” currency based upon global economics being overseen by an exclusive membership “tribe” (e.g. the World Bank, international financial institution).

Obviously the system works for those member tribes that have representative members (e.g. World Bank) while none represented “tribes” are repressed and suffer. One of the first steps in absorbing a foreign population is forcing them to adopt your currency.

Currency will be adopted locally but never will be globally unless one single entity dominates the world. First it will be our currency, next will be the absorption of our culture. Which isn’t going to happen without a FIGHT! I rebuke thee...

F-R-E-E-D-O-M!

otomotopia
02-15-2011, 11:47 AM
Okay, now you sound like a conspiracy theorist.

Kroom
02-15-2011, 12:47 PM
I am trying to make a point with a little RP regarding the subject...

Let it be known, I am not a leader of a tribe but will gladly leaned aid in rebelling against any regime that secretly conspiracies to implement global rule!

http://1000diamonds.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/braveheart.jpg

Jeebus
02-15-2011, 09:48 PM
I am trying to make a point with a little RP regarding the subject...

Let it be known, I am not a leader of a tribe but will gladly leaned aid in rebelling against any regime that secretly conspiracies to implement global rule!

http://1000diamonds.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/braveheart.jpg


Will you crush them like a werum?

rixk
02-16-2011, 12:41 AM
Money is NOT universal, never was and still isn’t today...


You concentrate too much on what is written on the "bill", not the "bill" itself. Money IS universal, it has value to every member in the community.

That is what is lacking in Xsyon, there is no such item, which is valuable for every citizen regardless of profession. Food is, but it is too common, everyone can keep themselves supplied. And that is, why I think there will be no money in Xsyon, for people it is easier/safer to trade their goods for something they need, than to make a buffer trade for "money agreed on forums" with the risk to get stuck with it because noone really needs it from some point on.

Kroom
02-16-2011, 05:18 AM
You concentrate too much on what is written on the "bill", not the "bill" itself. Money IS universal, it has value to every member in the community.

That is what is lacking in Xsyon, there is no such item, which is valuable for every citizen regardless of profession. Food is, but it is too common, everyone can keep themselves supplied. And that is, why I think there will be no money in Xsyon, for people it is easier/safer to trade their goods for something they need, than to make a buffer trade for "money agreed on forums" with the risk to get stuck with it because noone really needs it from some point on.

Point taken, the concept of money is universal. The value and face of the money differ…

I think what you are seeking is very different what is being asked in this thread. Not player driven but something actually hard coded into the game. Yes?

rixk
02-16-2011, 06:37 AM
Point taken, the concept of money is universal. The value and face of the money differ…

I think what you are seeking is very different what is being asked in this thread. Not player driven but something actually hard coded into the game. Yes?

No, it has to be playerdriven.

There will be definitely situation, when someone wants to sell something and actually doesn't need something special for it. I am also sure that there will be people around, who exclusively focus on trading. Now it would be great, if those bigtime traders could mark the moneybills, which we can scavenge. So person, who wants to sell the item, can get tokens from trader. In reality seller just gets tokens of credit from the trader, which assure, that whenever he wants, he can go back to trader and purchase certain amount of goods from the trader. If there are enough clients for the trader, then those tokens of credit can be used to trade between all the clients without involving trader itself in every trade. Because in the end it doesn't matter, who goes back to the trader and exchanges credits back for goods.
But using that system we can be sure, that every "bill" has been backed with goods.

Few remarks:
It can't happen straight away, there has to be time to build trust between trader and customers.
Also a problem is, what will happen when trader decides to quit the game without notice. Although, when he is trustworthy, then he probably settles his things before doing such thing.
EDIT:Marking of bills is vital, otherwise trader can never be sure, if the bills originate from him or not.
Of course all this written here doesn't mean, that this bird would lift off in Xsyon, but at least this would be a way to give value to the bills we scavenge.

As english isn't my native language, I hope all written here is clear, if not, just ask :)

FabricSoftener
02-16-2011, 09:05 AM
guys!

The real 'value' of the US dollar is based on gold which is a resource that is nearly useless in the modern era (even in any era when you think about it). Its doesnt take much to figure out that 'money' is actually nothing more than a trust document, not a document of actual use or value.

its not a theory, its just obvious.

what am I going to do with a big pile of gold when everyone needs to heat their home. well convert that gold into oil. hmm why not just have the oil instead to begin with

bodangly
02-17-2011, 06:51 AM
US dollar is NOT based upon a gold standard. This was changed many years ago. As for the difference between currency and barter I encourage anyone to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency as opposed to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money .


Fiat currency (wikipedia): The term fiat money has been defined variously as:
any money declared by a government to be legal tender.
state-issued money which is neither legally convertible to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.
money without intrinsic value

Example as applies to Xsyon: There are two ways for fiat currency to enter Xsyon. Firstly would be if the developers implemented a currency, for example, bottle caps in Fallout. The other way would be if a large tribe instituted a currency with no value behind it. This is tough since basically every item has some use in crafting, so basically anything that isn't implemented by a developer will end up being a commodity currency.



Commodity money (wikipedia): Commodity money is money whose value comes from a commodity out of which it is made. It is objects that have value in themselves as well as for use as money.[1]

Examples of commodities that have been used as mediums of exchange include gold, silver, copper, peppercorns, large stones (such as Rai stones), decorated belts, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, candy, barley etc. These items were sometimes used in a metric of perceived value in conjunction to one another, in various commodity valuation or price system economies.

Example as applies to Xsyon: Nails become a standard in measuring value. They can both be used to trade, or as actual nails. I suppose you may call it barter if trading specifically to obtain nails for use; while it is commodity money when the nails are being used as an intermediary



General barter definition (wikipedia): Barter is a method of exchange by which goods or services are directly exchanged for other goods or services without using a medium of exchange, such as money.

Example as applies to Xsyon: I need tarps and have an excess of tools, so I trade with a tailor who needs tools to get my tarp.

What we will see in Xsyon is going to be commodity money mixed with barter. Not exactly a pure barter system, but not the same as fiat or government issued currency.

Kroom
02-17-2011, 07:13 AM
There will be definitely situation, when someone wants to sell something and actually doesn't need something special for it. I am also sure that there will be people around, who exclusively focus on trading. Now it would be great, if those bigtime traders could mark the moneybills, which we can scavenge.

This requires a change in the code, great idea but *I think* the point of the thread was for tribe leaders to come to a conclusion the value of items based on what the game offers now.

RE: FabricSoftener and rixk

I don’t think we are in disagreement at all... I will chalk it up to my poor communication skills. =)

The point of my rant is tribe leaders cannot sit down and dictate the value of anything based on the current game mechanics pre-launch. Post-launch they can try but will find various points of resistance due the pvp tribe politics and pioneer aspects the game promotes.

We need to be very cautious allowing any “super-power” tribes dictating the economy of the game. If we idly allow it we risk the absorption of the player community. I had to leave my previous MMO due to this because one group consumed most of the player base and became self-appointed leaders of the game world. It killed the pvp aspects of the game. So now, they twiddle their thumbs bitching on the forums and blaming game mechanics for the lack of pvp. They managed this even without the possibility of setting currency standards within the game. With the possibility of dedicating the currency here, I see the potential of a single super-power rising faster.

Similar (RP) conflicts are going to occurring relating to resources/economy in game as in real life. Which I think is awesome!

So, the first time someone tells me “we only accept XXX...” because of a 50+ man tribe five zones away set an artificial currency based on a resource that is convenient for them I will have a new enemy in-game and so should you.

KeithStone
02-17-2011, 10:08 AM
if a strong alliance of tribes get together and all decide to use prewar money as their currency- then we will all end up using it.

However at first, I'm sure it's going to be a mostly barter trade system until tribes and cities start to get established and then at some point tribes will get together and declare a currency.

rixk
02-17-2011, 01:44 PM
I am willing to bet, that prewar money as it is now, will definitely not make as currency in Xsyon.
Money, which only flows in to the market and not out, means, that by the time you guys make an agreement, there is so much of that money in the hands of people and the amount is increasing with each day.. Inflation is simply killing it.

Basically means the same, like every person had a moneyprinting machine under their bed.

brando
02-17-2011, 01:47 PM
It would be nice if the server slowed the pace of scavenging finds based on how much currency is floating around.

purifier
02-18-2011, 08:57 AM
In regards of the barter system: i wont like walking into tribes looking for a paticular item, only to find out the seller/trader wants another item (or items) in return... item(s) i dont carry around, so ill have to get back to my own tribe to get the item(s), only to find out when i return to the seller/trader that someone else has already "bought" the items i was looking for. A barter system might work if only a small group of people are involved, but when that groups gets to big, values on items become unclear, making it a mess to trade properly. (this is what happened in the realworld too, disregard who started it, look at the benefits of a set currency.)

Heres an idea, establish a "world bank" which is purely made of people deciding things regarding the currency used to trade items. Entrance of the worldbank by tribes is voluntary, if you dont want to be part its fine. The main goal of the worldbank is to establish a currency sytem. A centralized currency system is the base of a good working tradesystem. With a currency system everyone knows exactly what to bring if you want to buy items, and know exactly what to gain with selling items. If several (if not all) tribes use this currency system trade will become fluent between those tribes but also to people outside those tribes because they also know what to bring when they want to trade.
The worldbank is represented by 1 member of each tribe (lets say tribes with over 10 members, maybe even smaller tribes of 5 if thats what people want, this is just to give a view to the idea). This way every tribe can have a say in the decisions of the worldbank regarding the currency system. (ie a democracy). We dont meddle in prices of items, thats for the buyers/sellers to decide... item prices/value cant be set, they differ according to supply and demand.

So with a worldbank, there isnt a tribe or group of tribes required to have world domination, theres an "agency" overlooking the currency, which isnt an entity just a group of people...
And to those that dont like to have a set currency.... Its in the natur of humans to give value's to everything in our lives, you cant change that.... In regard of the idea that there will be a poor/rich system building when we use a currency... sure there will be people/tribes with more money then others, but there cant be poor people/tribes in a game... If you dont get/earn anything with what you are producing, change production, in RL that might not be easy, but in a game it is :p

I hope this is somewhat clear :) Any questions i will try to answer although some questions cant be answered untill the establishing of this idea :)

psiic
02-18-2011, 10:32 AM
Hmmm I say we convince the devs to add in player capture, then we can trade in slaves.

psiic
02-18-2011, 10:34 AM
In regards of the barter system: i wont like walking into tribes looking for a paticular item, only to find out the seller/trader wants another item (or items) in return... item(s) i dont carry around, so ill have to get back to my own tribe to get the item(s), only to find out when i return to the seller/trader that someone else has already "bought" the items i was looking for. A barter system might work if only a small group of people are involved, but when that groups gets to big, values on items become unclear, making it a mess to trade properly. (this is what happened in the realworld too, disregard who started it, look at the benefits of a set currency.)

Heres an idea, establish a "world bank" which is purely made of people deciding things regarding the currency used to trade items. Entrance of the worldbank by tribes is voluntary, if you dont want to be part its fine. The main goal of the worldbank is to establish a currency sytem. A centralized currency system is the base of a good working tradesystem. With a currency system everyone knows exactly what to bring if you want to buy items, and know exactly what to gain with selling items. If several (if not all) tribes use this currency system trade will become fluent between those tribes but also to people outside those tribes because they also know what to bring when they want to trade.
The worldbank is represented by 1 member of each tribe (lets say tribes with over 10 members, maybe even smaller tribes of 5 if thats what people want, this is just to give a view to the idea). This way every tribe can have a say in the decisions of the worldbank regarding the currency system. (ie a democracy). We dont meddle in prices of items, thats for the buyers/sellers to decide... item prices/value cant be set, they differ according to supply and demand.

So with a worldbank, there isnt a tribe or group of tribes required to have world domination, theres an "agency" overlooking the currency, which isnt an entity just a group of people...
And to those that dont like to have a set currency.... Its in the natur of humans to give value's to everything in our lives, you cant change that.... In regard of the idea that there will be a poor/rich system building when we use a currency... sure there will be people/tribes with more money then others, but there cant be poor people/tribes in a game... If you dont get/earn anything with what you are producing, change production, in RL that might not be easy, but in a game it is :p

I hope this is somewhat clear :) Any questions i will try to answer although some questions cant be answered untill the establishing of this idea :)

I am sure that many of us will be posting on the forums what we have for trade and what we are looking for in exchange, and the location to find us

Sorakin
02-20-2011, 07:12 AM
You can't just decide something random is currency. Thinking back, gold was certainly not random. It was rare and usable albeit mostly for looks. A similar material would also have to be put into the game in order for currency really to get started. Think of a material that someone could definitely show off as a sign of their wealth. The rare metals of the earth seem pretty commonplace for currency, but it would be interesting to see something like animal teeth or furs. Maybe even something rare left over from the previous civilization that could be incorporated into crafting recipes for show of wealth.

purifier
02-22-2011, 09:50 PM
I totaly agree with you Sorakin, but i think we need an organ (the "world bank") to take such decision. That way we know more then 1 will accept the item(s) as currency :)

AlexTaldren
02-23-2011, 02:01 PM
In regards of the barter system: i wont like walking into tribes looking for a paticular item, only to find out the seller/trader wants another item (or items) in return... item(s) i dont carry around, so ill have to get back to my own tribe to get the item(s), only to find out when i return to the seller/trader that someone else has already "bought" the items i was looking for. A barter system might work if only a small group of people are involved, but when that groups gets to big, values on items become unclear, making it a mess to trade properly. (this is what happened in the realworld too, disregard who started it, look at the benefits of a set currency.)

Heres an idea, establish a "world bank" which is purely made of people deciding things regarding the currency used to trade items. Entrance of the worldbank by tribes is voluntary, if you dont want to be part its fine. The main goal of the worldbank is to establish a currency sytem. A centralized currency system is the base of a good working tradesystem. With a currency system everyone knows exactly what to bring if you want to buy items, and know exactly what to gain with selling items. If several (if not all) tribes use this currency system trade will become fluent between those tribes but also to people outside those tribes because they also know what to bring when they want to trade.
The worldbank is represented by 1 member of each tribe (lets say tribes with over 10 members, maybe even smaller tribes of 5 if thats what people want, this is just to give a view to the idea). This way every tribe can have a say in the decisions of the worldbank regarding the currency system. (ie a democracy). We dont meddle in prices of items, thats for the buyers/sellers to decide... item prices/value cant be set, they differ according to supply and demand.

So with a worldbank, there isnt a tribe or group of tribes required to have world domination, theres an "agency" overlooking the currency, which isnt an entity just a group of people...
And to those that dont like to have a set currency.... Its in the natur of humans to give value's to everything in our lives, you cant change that.... In regard of the idea that there will be a poor/rich system building when we use a currency... sure there will be people/tribes with more money then others, but there cant be poor people/tribes in a game... If you dont get/earn anything with what you are producing, change production, in RL that might not be easy, but in a game it is :p

I hope this is somewhat clear :) Any questions i will try to answer although some questions cant be answered untill the establishing of this idea :)

Sorry, but this is incredibly wrong and goes against everything this game stands for. I say absolutely not to this entire idea.

Kroom
02-23-2011, 04:31 PM
No thanks Purifier, you can keep your “agency” (love the name irony).

http://www.getliberty.org/content_images/NoIMF.PNG

xyva424
02-24-2011, 11:52 AM
I have a sneaking hunch nails and screws will become our common currency and then less common but more useful items will become currency as well. So we might end up with 50~100 nails being worth 1~2 tarps and then some expensive suit of armor would cost so many tarps or its equivalence in nails or screws or other more or less common substitute. Then we will have traders working exchange rates to buy low and sell high while getting more and more for themselves so they can then purchase what ever goods or services they're after. A world bank moderates exchange rates to ensure prices stay fair however we don't need that as traders will create their own rates that may fluctuate based on supply and demand as well as trust and relations.

Redemp
02-24-2011, 02:07 PM
I have a sneaking hunch nails and screws will become our common currency and then less common but more useful items will become currency as well. So we might end up with 50~100 nails being worth 1~2 tarps and then some expensive suit of armor would cost so many tarps or its equivalence in nails or screws or other more or less common substitute. Then we will have traders working exchange rates to buy low and sell high while getting more and more for themselves so they can then purchase what ever goods or services they're after. A world bank moderates exchange rates to ensure prices stay fair however we don't need that as traders will create their own rates that may fluctuate based on supply and demand as well as trust and relations.

I agree with those who have stated nails etc will become the currency, and to those who state the currency will be different in other regions. I am completely against any Dev intervention in setting a global currency, this is the fun we get to have in game establishing. I also do not think any tribal get together, alliance or forum post will determine the currency. I will trade for what I need most, and offer what is most needed in return ... if those items become currency, so be it.

randomt
02-25-2011, 03:23 PM
We have the makings of a nice complex barter system based currency, economic orientated players everywhere will rejoice! No need to settle on some arbitrary item of value, this way will be much more interesting!

Funkadelik
03-08-2011, 03:56 PM
Hmmm. I was thinking about currencies. Barter trade is ineffecient because of the double-coincidence of need. However, tribes must be well established and put out enough goods to make their money valuable. And then we need a stock market system and business suits.

Snickle1980
03-21-2011, 01:43 AM
Those that speak highly of a central banking system controlled by 1 tribe or 20 either don't understand the long term consequences and how this works in the real world...or, conversly know full and well what this would do to the power structure within the game and wish to see it rise to power.
whoever controls the currency and the value of goods within the game will hold a great deal of power and will make themselves wealthy by accepting actual goods for this "currency".

to trade, do business and along the way, advance yourself, you would have to go through this tribe or agency. this isnt something that happens over a short period of time, but once it's created and accepted, it does happen.

this tribe or group of tribes would also begin to grow larger day by day. it's good to be a member and have access to a huge stockpile of commodities while handing out buttons and bottle caps.

after a period of time, your tribe will either be with them and the benefits they offer, or you will be on the outside. and you will be outnumbered. as a matter of fact, if you try to break down the currency system set up, you'll be seen as a nuisance to those that work within the system.

thats just how it works. in real life, in other mmo's and it may be how it plays out here. it's actually more likely to happen than not and the dynamics of how it happens may be completely different than what we expect. the above is just one example of how a group of people can come to power over a period of time and it's going to be fun watchin how this plays out.

personaly, i think the xsyon community will absolutely create and support one large and powerful guild/tribe to avoid inconveniences or to be part of a power base. quite a few people will complain, but you always have the option of opting out of that system and living outside of that society.

in the meantime, lets see what gets coded in that may effect this. that would be the only wild-card in this equation.

Andius
03-21-2011, 03:56 AM
I've gone really into detail on currency in a topic about the economy under the features section but I'll detail it out here as well, and soon I will be posting a suggestion.

As is, none of the items in game are fit for use as a regular currency in my opinion.

Dollars/coins/bottcaps/beer tabs may be intended to be this games version of currency but there is a reason people aren't accepting them here like they do in other games. Because they are worthless, and as they are constantly flowing onto the market from scavenging, inflation will really punish anyone who accepts these as currencies. You sell your saw for 50 dollars today. It will be worth 150 dollars down the road because the money already in the market will stay in the market, and more is constantly flowing in. However you are still stuck with 50 dollars instead of the saw now worth 150 dollars. Why would you accept a currency like that?

On the other hand items with real value, like nails, skrews, leather etc. will weigh a ton and take up a lot of stacks in your inventory.

What we need is a currency backed by something of real worth, that is easy to carry around and fits into one stack. What do I propose as a solution? We should petition for the creation of player made currencies. Now this may sound crazy at first. But this is exactly how the real economy works. Players can create their own currency if they wish to, and they can then do things that will give it value, or do things that will keep it about as useful as monopoly money. It could become a currency of real value when its controlled by someone who prints the money responsibly and may even back the money with a reserve of things like leather and nails, to avoid inflation, and that currency is then accepted as legal tender by major allied tribes and players.

Sure it might pan out so there are many different kinds of currency out their being used as opposed to one single currency like in most MMOs, but it would be very realistic and give this game a unique flavor never before seen in an MMO. EVERYTHING about this game would be fully controlled by players, even what kind of currencies are accepted and how valuable they are. Wouldn't that be something?

Monfols
03-21-2011, 03:32 PM
I only pay in nature.

blake378
03-21-2011, 03:47 PM
I only pay in nature.

does this have some meaning? i like the barter system myself until something has real value to it.

Dubanka
03-21-2011, 03:53 PM
currency cann only evolve once a trade system evolves, which involves some semblance of organization on the players part, and a level of scarceness of resources that forces players to either trade with one another, or war, to obtain that resource.

then it is up the players to decide if some sort of common currence evolves from that trade.

imo that will only happen if there is value to the item that supercedes all others...but doesn't actually do anything by itself. THis is where precious metals and jewels come in, that have 'stat mod' effects (to persons or gear) when applied to equipment or jewelry.

I don't think you'll see a rise of a substitutionary currency just because.

Donar
03-21-2011, 04:41 PM
For currency to take place in a primitive world it needs to be backed up by something. Back in the day gold coins were in fact, gold, so they had some value. Dollars until relatively recently were backed by gold and silver.


We can't just "assign" a value, those coins and paper are as worthless now as paper and scrap metal; unless for example the devs introduce something like a pack mule to be sold by an NPC.

For example, if the pack mule were to be priced at $1000, we can derive value for other things having that pack mule as reference, for example, a nail might be worth 1/1000 of a pack mule, so the value would be $1. With the demand of money, and the short supply, the bills would become another commodity and have value themselves; but first we need some kind of comparison point to determine a currency.

Another way of establishing currency would be to have a tribe specialize in working as a bank, issuing money and having it backed up by small logs or another resource, therefore anyone that comes in contact with a dollar can go to that tribe and redeem it for X amount of logs, or 1/X amount of logs.

Then again, the dollars collected by the tribe would only serve as a RP element rather than to buy something to issue it as an IOU.

So...currency? Tricky situation. But I'm willing to work in establishing a bank of some sort with the knowledge of economics that I have; PM if you are really interested, no trolls please. If we are to really establish some kind of currency this early in the game it'll have to be in agreement with a lot of tribes and some kind of commitment will be expected.

Or we can just stick to Bartering, assigning value to things according to the need of each individual tribe.

Some tribes value nails more than others, others have a special need for wood. Bla bla bla, I could go on forever.


I have a sneaking hunch nails and screws will become our common currency and then less common but more useful items will become currency as well. So we might end up with 50~100 nails being worth 1~2 tarps and then some expensive suit of armor would cost so many tarps or its equivalence in nails or screws or other more or less common substitute. Then we will have traders working exchange rates to buy low and sell high while getting more and more for themselves so they can then purchase what ever goods or services they're after. A world bank moderates exchange rates to ensure prices stay fair however we don't need that as traders will create their own rates that may fluctuate based on supply and demand as well as trust and relations.


Yeah, that's bartering.

"Exchange rates" are subjective and answer to supply and demand, bro.

Dontaze_Mebro
03-23-2011, 09:52 AM
Destroy all the junkpiles and trees to give them value then we will talk dollars and tabs.

xyberviri
03-23-2011, 10:10 AM
moral of the story is that scavenging skill = gold mine.

Sorakin
03-23-2011, 01:18 PM
Scavenging does feel like a gold mine, but its such a common skill that anyone can use it.

Resources currently feel unlimited for the most part... and unless that feeling changes then trade/barter/currency is going down the drain. The only thing worth trading are items that require large numbers of people to carry a reasonable amount of them (logs, sand, large cloth stacks?). And even then you aren't buying the resource, you are buying manual labor lol.

Miyukini
03-25-2011, 06:58 PM
Casino we use Dollars and peny as currency. look at it (https://sites.google.com/site/casinoxyon/home/currancy-exchange)

Plague
03-31-2011, 02:35 AM
Nails. It takes effort to get them and they get spent a lot on skilling. Money? Pffft, what am I supposed to do with money after apocalypse? Or bottle caps? Pay me in somthing I can use like nails or bolts or even feathers.

Vysara
03-31-2011, 03:55 AM
I'm sorry but with all the actual usefull resources that are around I will not be using any items which do not have value in themselves as any form of currency.

One of the reason we use the money we do in the real world is that access to our own resources are not an option due to issues such as population density.

The most likely trade system will involve people putting a price against the various usefull items and resources, things like nails.. old saw blades.. that sort of stuff. The prices might fluctuate and there will certainly be some bartering going on but that's how it's going to work.

To understand why trying to use pre-apocolypse stuff like tabs and bills is not what we want you need to understand why we use the currency we do in the real world.

Most currencies were tied to some rare material, usually in weight. A nice example would be in Britain there would be sterling pennies. 240 would be a Pound Sterling, which now days is simply known as £1. Of course the worth of £1 is no longer tied to the value of one pound of silver but serves as a nice example of how the currency has evolved over time.

If you want to use these tabs and stuff as currency you need to realise that we already have currency in that all the community has equal access to items of actual worth via junk piles and crafting. There is no need to have an item act as a go between for these items since none of us will lack the items carrying actual worth, imo.

Miyukini
03-31-2011, 08:26 AM
Its easier to use an item that can stack over 1k and do not weight.

xyberviri
03-31-2011, 11:55 AM
Yup i belive its Dollars, quarters, pennies, beer tabs and buttons that stack up to 1k and dont have any weight.

possibly bolts/screws and nails.

Vysara
04-01-2011, 12:21 AM
And what is to stop people paying you in tabs or whatever and then those tabs stop being used as currency? It's like I said, if that item on it's own has no worth then it is worthless. This is why a lot of early currency was made from rare metals etc.

If you want a proper banking/currency system to be set up in game then you are going to have to place your trust in humans to honor their promise and EVE would be a great example here of how vulnerable it leaves you.

In the real world we get messed around all the time and we have laws protecting us. In this game we have nothing.

I would strongly recommend everyone avoid using items with no actual worth as currency

d3m0nd0
04-01-2011, 01:01 PM
We should use people as currency.

I'll trade you 1 hopibear for a Bryan.

Lithosphere
04-01-2011, 11:13 PM
The only real use I can see for currency will be within tribes, as laws and standards can be enforced by leadership, and gives a quicker way to in-trade. Outside of that as mentioned before there's no security on your investment, so one day sitting on a fortune could become nothing within a day.

Malivius
04-02-2011, 06:36 AM
The only real use I can see for currency will be within tribes, as laws and standards can be enforced by leadership, and gives a quicker way to in-trade. Outside of that as mentioned before there's no security on your investment, so one day sitting on a fortune could become nothing within a day.

Unless something changes, this! Right now, due to demand and rarity, I use bones as my major form of "currency". If there were a patch today that increased animal spawns and numbers, my currency wouldn't be nearly as valuable as it is now.

I'd be sitting on a pile of (another useless and overabundant resource). Of course, without decay in and working, all of this is moot as, without it, Xsyon will look like post-WWI Germany.

"Okay..I'm bringing you four storage bins full of dollar bills and bottle caps...can I PLEASE have a knife?"

Ferraro
04-02-2011, 07:03 AM
Like others said money dont have any value actually on Xsyon...one prove, what are you trading for 8 pennies, for exemple? I do nothing for that unless i can use the material of it for something...

...i believe in what just said the currency will be, are, what we need. In others MMO's the money have value cause its predeterminated in that world...here for now we determine what have value...unless will be crate NPC trading posts so it will make sense.

genkedama
04-14-2011, 03:56 PM
I know its probably been said time and time again, but currency is a hollow term that gives value to whatever is called currency. To have currency you must be exchange it for any other item. If nobody excepts the fact that you give them $1 for something and they cant turn around and buy something else with that $1 then its a useless system that will fail to work. Every person would have to be in agreement to except it as a currency. Doesn't sound difficult. But the only way i see it working is to refuse trading anything else until everyone caves to using it. Good luck with that.

With that said, nothing has value until you need it.

boomer0901
04-14-2011, 07:38 PM
Hey now, lol


We should use people as currency.

I'll trade you 1 hopibear for a Bryan.

Throne
04-19-2011, 04:22 PM
Generally, currency starts when there are two groups (tribes) who agree on assigning a currency value to a few normalized resources and allowing the market to decide the rest. Because the market is being decided between the two groups, it's fairly stable as long as the agreement remains in place...it mostly involves trust and stability. When other tribes join in on the agreement, the standard will eventually be set and currency will become standardized and begin to ebb and flow with market demands, new patches, game upgrades, player findings, etc.

I don't see this really happening until certain cities become natural marketplace hubs and trading posts become more widespread.

The specific ability for large groups of people or multiple allied tribes to suddenly decide to use another currency or do away with it altogether with the sole purpose being to undermine another set of allied tribes who hold large amounts of currency (trust) will also be a major detractor to ingame currency coming to permanent fruition.

I think the most likely system will be based on items of value (similar to trading 'motes' for 'crystals' in Asheron's Call) since there is little chance of a game (dev) based currency being established. I remember often trading motes for certain items of value, but rarely trading motes or crystals for ingame currency (pyreals).

darkbladed
04-20-2011, 08:19 AM
"Okay..I'm bringing you four storage bins full of dollar bills and bottle caps...can I PLEASE have a knife?"

Sold come to my camp later today; it is going to be a real crappy knife though :)

Creator
05-22-2011, 08:55 AM
well its either "in god you trust" ( pop caps, dollar bills etc. ) or "in supply demand you trust" which I place my bet on. so far when people say can you make me or give me something I say, let me look at what I need.

the most efficient trade is between two players able to compliment eachother with a supply to the others needs.

the monetary system simply acts more like a .. converter of needs. Introducing one ore more parties needs at a time and place not as specific as now when a resource may or may not be available or demand and supply ratios may have changed.

still I keep plenty in stock of everything I can... if I need something, let me know what you need.

MrDDT
05-22-2011, 11:26 AM
My tribe is going to be on demand for type of stuff used.
Screws, nails, bolts, bones etc.

NorCalGooey
05-22-2011, 12:17 PM
Wedges, metal buckles, saw blades, human heads...over time we will figure out an approximate value using rarity of the resources as well as how important the resources are. An old saw blade might be worth 500 nails, for instance. Depending on how rare and how useful saws are compared to nails....and saws are more useful than nails even though nails

edit: when i say nails i mean screws, rivets, nails...all lightweight and have there use.

Fluffball
05-24-2011, 11:59 AM
I've not found an answer as yet, are there certain resources and items that are only located in specific areas? If it's yes then would that effect their value or potential use as a form of currency? (and is it a worthwhile project to map locations of resources/items/geology, I have a cartographic interest.. I have seen maps of zones/terrain but not what's where, including settlements etc.. H&H has an impressive map, maybe Xsyon needs one too?).

Aiden
05-24-2011, 01:03 PM
I've not found an answer as yet, are there certain resources and items that are only located in specific areas? If it's yes then would that effect their value or potential use as a form of currency? (and is it a worthwhile project to map locations of resources/items/geology, I have a cartographic interest.. I have seen maps of zones/terrain but not what's where, including settlements etc.. H&H has an impressive map, maybe Xsyon needs one too?).

As far as anyone's been able to ascertain, there are no regional resources at this time. All resources appear to be available at all points across the map.

Xx1327
05-26-2011, 10:27 AM
what about tar?

Redfoot
05-26-2011, 10:54 AM
Tar does appear be a rare resource, maybe not regional. I found a small pit and it has now been depleted. Not been able to find any more. The next question would be, what is it good for? Does it have any value?

Jadzia
05-26-2011, 11:13 AM
Tar does appear be a rare resource, maybe not regional. I found a small pit and it has now been depleted. Not been able to find any more. The next question would be, what is it good for? Does it have any value?

Tar has no use right now. It will be used for buildings later on, but who knows when.

Trenchfoot
05-26-2011, 01:21 PM
Tar is planned as a companion to feathers in a secret upcoming feature.

Bizley
07-11-2011, 02:43 AM
Wedges, metal buckles, saw blades, human heads...over time we will figure out an approximate value using rarity of the resources as well as how important the resources are. An old saw blade might be worth 500 nails, for instance. Depending on how rare and how useful saws are compared to nails....and saws are more useful than nails even though nails

edit: when i say nails i mean screws, rivets, nails...all lightweight and have there use.

The way it's looking right now with the ratio between lightweight metal and saw blades + how useful saws are compared to nails would seem to make 5,000 nails a more reasonable price, if not more.

EDIT: Honestly, it's ridiculous.

MrDDT
07-11-2011, 08:29 AM
The way it's looking right now with the ratio between lightweight metal and saw blades + how useful saws are compared to nails would seem to make 5,000 nails a more reasonable price, if not more.

EDIT: Honestly, it's ridiculous.


Even so the point is that screws, nails, bolts, and rivits are still lightweight, and useful. They just set the basic price. So you could then convert other items also.
Say sawblades are worth 5000 nails (I would think thats too higher of a price but lets just say).
So getting 5k nails would be hard, but maybe you could get other things like say round bones are worth 20 nails each. You would then need 250 round bones. Then you could say that Obsidian is worth 250 nails. So you would need only 20 of those.

Point is you can figure it by how useful nails/screws/rivits,bolts are. Unlike something like dollar bills which have no real value. Right now I see no one ever giving me a saw for any amount of dollar bills.

NorCalGooey
07-11-2011, 05:39 PM
Yup. I think those will set the prices of other items. This will take a long long time and will never be universal across the entire world of Xsyon. Perhaps different regions may have different prices.

Again, this will a long long time before it naturally falls into place (everyone knowing the value of an item by region i mean, and what the rivet/nail/screw/bolt equivalent is).