Macro poll. Yes or No?

[blackice]

I would say no. Ruins the time and effort all the other players put in.


EDIT: Lets say for punishment purposes. For yes its insta ban and no its 1 warning then ban XD

[Ex0dUs101]

Its already been stated they are not allowed, theres a massive thread on Macro's already.

[Saorlan]

Hell NO.

Macroing ruined Darkfall for me.

Macroers are just assholes.

[STAR_GOD]

macro never!

[Derek]

Might not be allowed, but if enforcement is left up to player policing and GM's then it will ruin the game. If macroing gives any form of advantage, players will find a way to do it and not get caught. Anyone who says otherwise is being naive.

[neijlu]

I think the best thing is to make macros difficult to use. For now a simple autoclick can allow u to fish.

[Gamefreak]

Macros shouldn't be allowed, but because there is no way to stop them except having GMs act as a sort of secret police, it will never be enforced. Plus, if you give GMs the power to give 24 hour bans on suspected macroing individuals, you can bet safely some of them will abuse it.

Stop a macroing program? Great, buy a logitech keyboard and you can still macro. I haven't seen a game that actually deals with this problem, and I highly doubt this will be the first.

[sionide]

Blackice, we don't need polls like this.

Macroing is illegal in any MMO. Only reason attended macroing was allowed in DFO was because everyone was macroing and the devs would have had to ban like 90% of the population.

[blackice]

I really just wanted to get peoples opinions on it. i can see only around 10% of people would support that in general. Keeping in mind that its still illegal its kinda like asking a pothead if he should think weed should be legalised.

[Senusret]

If there is a zero tolerance policy on macros then I am sure it will cut down on the macroing. Just a simple rule anyone caught using macros will have their character deleted.

[Gamefreak]

While that's an ideal situation, he would have to ban half his player base on the first or second day of prelude.

He can't afford to do that.

[FPrime]

Delete character isn't the same as ban account.

Do you really think half of the playerbase is going to macro? Is that how you justify doing it yourself?

I think 0 tolerance with a char deletion is a good idea. It doesn't hurt subscriber numbers directly (although some might quit over it) but just makes the cheater start over. That's a fitting punishment.

[sionide]

I agree. Have a zero tolerance and stand by it. The reason DFO got out of hand was because the devs were wishy-washy about it, until almost all the population was doing it in one form or the other.

[FabricSoftener]

I agree. Have a zero tolerance and stand by it. The reason DFO got out of hand was because the devs were wishy-washy about it, until almost all the population was doing it in one form or the other.

in all fairness their policy was faily clear for those people who read them, its just that they never really enforced it because either they didnt have the time and methods to hunt people down or there was just so many people doing it they would have banned more than 1/2 the server. I think its more the first issue, priorities.

I think it would be hysterical in this game if people found out that swming skill actually dosent affect anything but only after getting it to 50 after swiming in the lake all month

[Derek]

Delete character isn't the same as ban account.

Do you really think half of the playerbase is going to macro? Is that how you justify doing it yourself?

I think 0 tolerance with a char deletion is a good idea. It doesn't hurt subscriber numbers directly (although some might quit over it) but just makes the cheater start over. That's a fitting punishment.

The problem with that stance is that proof of macroing is not always black and white. There are shades of grey. How do you tell if a guy is using a fishing macro for instance? Yea, the GM can send a tell and if there is no response then delete the character? What if that person has his UI hidden or responds to the tell because he is macroing but not afk? There are so many other scenerios.

Banning and GM policing is a poor way to deal with flawed game mechanics. Repetitive boring actions will always drive the player base to find ways to macro that action for the sake of sanity and avoiding carpal tunnel.

[sionide]

in all fairness their policy was faily clear for those people who read them, its just that they never really enforced it because either they didnt have the time and methods to hunt people down or there was just so many people doing it they would have banned more than 1/2 the server. I think its more the first issue, priorities.

I think it would be hysterical in this game if people found out that swming skill actually dosent affect anything but only after getting it to 50 after swiming in the lake all month


Yes, true about the policy but most conversations went like this:

FORUM:
A: Yo, can we macro?
Mod: No, read the policy
A: What about G15 keyboards it's a feature of my keyboard like typing?
Mod: Well...umm..not sure.
A: Ok, so there isn't a policy about that?
Mod: I guess not. But you have to be the one pressing the keys

Boom, attended macroing...which easily spills to full macroing.

[Derek]

Yes, true about the policy but most conversations went like this:

FORUM:
A: Yo, can we macro?
Mod: No, read the policy
A: What about G15 keyboards it's a feature of my keyboard like typing?
Mod: Well...umm..not sure.
A: Ok, so there isn't a policy about that?
Mod: I guess not. But you have to be the one pressing the keys

Boom, attended macroing...which easily spills to full macroing.

Agreed, shades of gray.

Again, you don't fix flawed game mechanics by using the ban hammer.

To be clear, I am definitely not pro-macro. I am in support of non-repetitive leveling/skilling up mechanics which I won't get into on this thread.

[FPrime]

Agreed, shades of gray.

Again, you don't fix flawed game mechanics by using the ban hammer.

To be clear, I am definitely not pro-macro. I am in support of non-repetitive leveling/skilling up mechanics which I won't get into on this thread.

Well until someone invents the perfect game with no flaws at all I prefer to see a flawed (but still fun and worthwhile) game protected by removing the cheaters. And to be clear I will say again, banning an account is not the same as deleting a character. The cheater can be given another chance to take the rules seriously, while still losing their ill-gotten gains.

The problem is that you can implement all the non-repetitive mechanics you want and players that want to get ahead will find a way to reduce the action to something repetitive that can be macro'd even if it means they are horribly inefficient because going 24/7 makes up for it. The mechanisms to the macros are very sophisticated and there is not much they can't automate. There has to be active policing and enforcement. Only the fear of losing what they are cheating to gain will stop them.

I know that it can be difficult to detect macros or to be sure that someone is macroing. I don't expect 100% success rate for that. Err on the side of caution and keep watching suspects. The kind of macroing that is problematic will be noticeable. Policing is not futile just because you can't catch every single instance of macroing, as long as you get the ones that cause a problem. I guess I am really talking about 0 tolerance for cheating taking into consideration that macroing is the most accessible method of cheating. If someone is macroing in a way that is indistinguishable from normal gameplay then the point is moot because nobody will notice. If nobody notices the act or the consequence I personally don't care if they are not caught. But if the no-macro stance is made clear in the rules, it will be their risk to take if they want to try to find where the boundary of cheating is noticeable.

The 0 tolerance I am talking about is not allowing the people who are caught to get away with it. The hidden UI or "I don't like to chat" excuse is an old one. It's easily gotten around: make the gm communication come in a pop-up window. Human interaction as a test of macroing should be only one of many ways used to detect it. Most importantly, the gms must stick to their guns and don't let players talk their way out of a punishment. If a few people quit because they got caught cheating and actually faced a punishment, good riddance!

There is no need to worry about innocent people facing persecution if the detecting process is reasonable and not hair-triggered or totally automated. Maybe some non-cheaters would quit because a good friend of theirs quit after being caught cheating, but the game will survive without them. Permitting cheating because "enforcement is too hard" will do much more harm to the game.

[Derek]

The mechanisms to the macros are very sophisticated and there is not much they can't automate.
We are talking about macroing relatively simple tasks not writing bots for combat and such. Anyway the kind of skill up systems I've eluded to, such as offline progression, are immune to macros.


There has to be active policing and enforcement.
You would rather have the majority of a GM's time spent investigating macro abuse reports instead of something like GM controlled NPC invasions?


Only the fear of losing what they are cheating to gain will stop them.
You are being naive.


I know that it can be difficult to detect macros or to be sure that someone is macroing. I don't expect 100% success rate for that. Err on the side of caution and keep watching suspects.
Again, tie up the majority of a GM's time for this sort of thing?


The kind of macroing that is problematic will be noticeable.
You are being naive again. In Darkfall, players found ways to glitch inside of walls and under the world to macro skills 24/7 without any risk. That is just one example.


Policing is not futile just because you can't catch every single instance of macroing, as long as you get the ones that cause a problem.
Policing alone should not be the manner in which to combat macroing. History has proven this fails horribly.


If someone is macroing in a way that is indistinguishable from normal gameplay then the point is moot because nobody will notice.


The point is not moot. Players who macro will gain a huge competitive advantage.


If nobody notices the act or the consequence I personally don't care if they are not caught.
Really? So you don't mind other players gaining a huge competitive advantage over you?


There is no need to worry about innocent people facing persecution if the detecting process is reasonable and not hair-triggered or totally automated.
You're being naive again.

The only mechanism currently in the game which will help combat macros is the soft cap on skills. Some people argue stamina use will help but this is just an obstacle that can be overcome with a rest/eat script. There are also rumors that a macro detection system is in place that stops skill gain but I have not seen any evidence of it.

This is my last post on this subject because it has been beaten to death and keeps going in circles.

[Gamefreak]

Can you please quote when and where I said that I macro?

Enlighten me please. I voted that they should be allowed, because there is no point in having a law you are incapable of enforcing. Also, arguing that people won't macro in a mmo is the same thing as arguing that bodybuilders don't use steroids in competition. If people have the availability to have an easy way out, they will take it. Psychology dictates this.

[FPrime]

We are talking about macroing relatively simple tasks not writing bots for combat and such. Anyway the kind of skill up systems I've eluded to, such as offline progression, are immune to macros.


You would rather have the majority of a GM's time spent investigating macro abuse reports instead of something like GM controlled NPC invasions?


You are being naive.


Again, tie up the majority of a GM's time for this sort of thing?


You are being naive again. In Darkfall, players found ways to glitch inside of walls and under the world to macro skills 24/7 without any risk. That is just one example.


Policing alone should not be the manner in which to combat macroing. History has proven this fails horribly.



The point is not moot. Players who macro will gain a huge competitive advantage.


Really? So you don't mind other players gaining a huge competitive advantage over you?


You're being naive again.

The only mechanism currently in the game which will help combat macros is the soft cap on skills. Some people argue stamina use will help but this is just an obstacle that can be overcome with a rest/eat script. There are also rumors that a macro detection system is in place that stops skill gain but I have not seen any evidence of it.

This is my last post on this subject because it has been beaten to death and keeps going in circles.

I think you and I have some differences in terminology.

When I say policing I don't mean just watching in a game client to see if someone is "acting weird." It means checking databases with scripts too. So the huge competitive advantage you are referring to would be noticeable statistically. Things like consecutive hours played, total hours played, total skill points and xp gained, should all be analyzed by a script and outliers should be investigated. One could not gain a huge competitive advantage without drawing scrutiny. Hiding in a rock wouldn't help at all. You know that GM's can tell where people are and move them right?

Games get ruined by cheaters and automation. I would definitely rather see GMs stay on top of that problem than spawn some mobs. Maintaining the integrity of the game is their job in my eyes, not running special events (which everyone will complain about afterward for some reason or another anyway).

You say you are only talking about simple macros when you respond to the beginning of my post and then in the end you talk about an eat/rest script (presumably being implemented alongside whatever skilling macro is going on) which is just the kind of complexity I was talking about. I am not talking about a full-fledged combat bot (let's wait till we get a real combat system to worry about that).

Clearly I mind people gaining a competitive advantage by cheating. That's what my whole post was about. When I said that I don't care if someone uses a macro in a way that is indistinguishable from normal gameplay it means that they are not gaining a competitive advantage. Someone who has gained a competitive advantage from macroing is distinguishable statistically. It's not technically macros that bother me, it's cheating and the accelerated pace of the game that comes from the automation arms race.

So your answer is to make the skill system a clone of Eve. The same thing gets suggested by every Eve fan in every game they go to, but yet still most games don't use that system. It's a completely different dynamic and most people who don't play Eve don't really want an offline progression system. That was one of the things I liked least about Eve when I tried it. Darkfall was "ruined" by macros according to many (I never played it I admit). The macroing essentially made it a game with offline progression... and people considered that "ruined." What does that tell you about how popular that idea would be?

The game releases in a few days, they aren't going to change the skill system to offline progression. Now who is being naive? You already said you are done with the conversation, which is fine since you aren't contributing anything constructive.

[iraclear]

I really just wanted to get peoples opinions on it. i can see only around 10% of people would support that in general. Keeping in mind that its still illegal its kinda like asking a pothead if he should think weed should be legalised.

i say yes to weed and macros.
thing is, if the game mechanics invite you to macro, for example that they put a need on you to do the same spell/click 1000 times, you might as well macro it instead of actually do the clicking - i play mmo's, i played DF, and my idea of fun isn't to do the same thing over and over again for skillgains.

That being said, there is not gonna be anywhere near the same macroing in Xsyon as in DF, because DF had the worst grind in MMO history, and in order to be competative you really had to repeat the same actions in safezones beyond the edge of sanity -> macroing was just a natural consequence. The only thing I've seen so far in X that invites you to macro is fishing, which doesnt give you any huge advantages over other players - besides it could easily be fixed the same way foraging and scavenging was; 'you were just fishing here recently'.

If they start paying out melee skillpoints for hitting friendly players, you can be sure macroing will skyrocket, at least since DFO's player base is already here:)

[Trigun]

the only way for defeat macro is make something unmacrable
this can be done with add random events
like fishing -> ur rod break/u catch a water monster
scavaging -> u get disease and need healed
foraging -> u find poisoned food
etc

[BigCountry]

We need to be able to "knock back" or push someone out of his/her safe territory. That way if he/she is macroing you can knock them out of the safe zone and kill them. This way the players can police it. It should not be a dev problem. The devs have enough to worry about as it is, and I do not want them wasting man hours on something like this. There is nothing a dev can do anyway if someone wants to press a key on his/her keyboard every 10 seconds. That's a problem with the game mechanic, not the person doing it.

[Trigun]

i made a lot of macros in other games... in wow i was a dudu tank and with 2 g15 keys i was able to tank everything... btw wow is a different case...
in others game i made small program for let me the work more easy... btw the problem is always the same... when u need to do the same repetitive command for do something... macro come out and can't be blocked easly

[iraclear]

We need to be able to "knock back" or push someone out of his/her safe territory. That way if he/she is macroing you can knock them out of the safe zone and kill them. This way the players can police it. It should not be a dev problem. The devs have enough to worry about as it is, and I do not want them wasting man hours on something like this. There is nothing a dev can do anyway if someone wants to press a key on his/her keyboard every 10 seconds. That's a problem with the game mechanic, not the person doing it.

this.

[jumpshot]

Skill cap, sillies.

[BigCountry]

skill cap helps a lot too. if darkfall would of had a skill cap it would of reduced the macroing 100x.

[Brutix]

People who macro can't be beaten easily. Let everyone macro I say and design the game for macroing. I would even go as far as having a macro program embedded in the game. If you can't beat them then join them.

[iraclear]

skill cap helps a lot too. if darkfall would of had a skill cap it would of reduced the macroing 100x.

you would rather put restrictions on a sandbox game than just tweak the game mechanics a little to render macroing useless in the first place?
as the game is now, without a skillcap (that i know of), what exactly would you macro / what are you afraid that I'd macro?

[BigCountry]

You need a skill cap for combat. Or else in the end everyone runs around fighting the exact same way, hence the "seamless quake arena" you guys refer Darkfall too.

[Helith]

Here is my feelings on macro's when it goes live.... ok a afk macro will ruin the game but a person who macro's will there say does a fishing macro but can answer any questions when a guide or gm stops by is fine, but now remember there is certain skills that will give you carpo tunnel (which i don't want again already had the surgery on both hands) and kill keyboard.. but hopefully they do something to these skills

[FPrime]

'you were just fishing here recently'.


That's a step in the right direction. Good idea.

I think they need to combine mechanics that make macroing difficult/unattractive with active policing (based on metrics analysis).

People that say "stopping automation is futile so let's design the game around the assumption that everyone will do it," are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I hope the game isn't made into an unfun timesink with no or very little user interaction (besides pvp) just because some people have no limitations on what they will do to have an advantage. Those people are missing the point of the game by trying to win it.

I think a lot of the battle is already won by the basic design of character progression. We don't get a lot more powerful compared to other games. I think the idea is that progression opens up possibilities and specialization not raw power according to the feature list:
"Unlike many game worlds where a character develops from a weakling to a god, Xsyon characters start off as heroes, above average in stats but inexperienced, unskilled and lacking knowledge."

Depending on exactly how the stat/skill decreases work this design decision could make macroing much less fruitful than in other games. If decay of infrequently used skills/attributes is relative to overall skill/attribute gain then macroing will be more like an automated form of "respeccing" than a shortcut to omnipotence. I still think it should be punishable because it would give some advantage (flexibility at the least), but that advantage may not be as game-breaking as our worst fears might predict.

I am hopeful that NG is making fairness a priority and that people who do cheat will face harsh penalties (regardless of how useful/useless cheating is).

[Dontaze_Mebro]

If there is a zero tolerance policy on macros then I am sure it will cut down on the macroing. Just a simple rule anyone caught using macros will have their character deleted.

How exactly do you PROVE that someone is macroing? Because they didn't answer your tell and kept working? There's nothing you can do except take the high ground and refuse to partake in macroing. We could do more if it weren't for these silly safe zones.

[Honelith]

No macros allowed, this ruined Darkfall for me. Instant ban for users of macros I'd say, then you'd think twice of using one.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

you'd think twice if i reported you for macroing and you were banned without proof.

[iraclear]

No macros allowed, this ruined Darkfall for me. Instant ban for users of macros I'd say, then you'd think twice of using one.

That is the policy in DF aswell, do you see them thinking twice?

[Gamefreak]

Yeah, iraclear has a point there. That's why I think having macros as a bannable offense is completely retarded, because there is no way to enforce it. It's like having a life sentence for a person who commits murder and having no jail. Is there a point? No.

[Haunt]

You need a skill cap for combat. Or else in the end everyone runs around fighting the exact same way, hence the "seamless quake arena" you guys refer Darkfall too.

I completely agree with this. A skill cap would be great. I think the soft cap they have in mind will get the job done too though.

[Cinhil124a]

let the lazy macro'ers hang!

[fflhktsn]

Well as i understand, if your logged in and NOT using a skill it decays.

So say someone takes the DF route, and AFK swims overnight. They return to really high swimming skill and lower everything else. So if you macro it is at the expense of all your other skills.

or am i missing something...

[Cinhil124a]

Set a random check in for anyone doing the same action for more than 20mins has a random click here interface from the gods stating "We have noticed you've been doing this for some time now, before we smite you click here!" and have it at random times from 20mins on LOL would be fun and funny, most people probley wouldnt mind and smiting them would do some good..

also if you see anyone macroing... FFAPVP is for the win on this one, just whack em, loot em and enjoy from their goods..

if they are smart enough to create complex macro's then so much the better for them, they may of earned it, but i tell ya making randomizing macro's isnt easy work and usually isn't done for gamming for the simple fact Macro'ers are lazy people who don't want to do the work anyways...


/end rant

[iraclear]

Well as i understand, if your logged in and NOT using a skill it decays.

So say someone takes the DF route, and AFK swims overnight. They return to really high swimming skill and lower everything else. So if you macro it is at the expense of all your other skills.

or am i missing something...

I also think you drown if you run out of stam in the water.

[coca]

Set a random check in for anyone doing the same action for more than 20mins has a random click here interface from the gods stating "We have noticed you've been doing this for some time now, before we smite you click here!" and have it at random times from 20mins on LOL would be fun and funny, most people probley wouldnt mind and smiting them would do some good..

also if you see anyone macroing... FFAPVP is for the win on this one, just whack em, loot em and enjoy from their goods..

if they are smart enough to create complex macro's then so much the better for them, they may of earned it, but i tell ya making randomizing macro's isnt easy work and usually isn't done for gamming for the simple fact Macro'ers are lazy people who don't want to do the work anyways...


/end rant

You obvisouly don't comprehend the complexity of macros I am able to write. (and for those not smart enough you can get a program that just records what you do and then loop it.. you click 2 buttons record and playback lol)

[Dontaze_Mebro]

It would be easy to kill macroers... IF they couldn't safely macro inside their tribal lands.

[Trigun]

You obvisouly don't comprehend the complexity of macros I am able to write. (and for those not smart enough you can get a program that just records what you do and then loop it.. you click 2 buttons record and playback lol)

everything can be macrable... but if the thing is complex to do and the work don't pay the time u need to write the macro then u (probably) don't have macros
btw adding stuff like a button to click or other thing is pretty useless bc is really easy to detect ... i think the only pain for a macro is a random event that can change a lot the mechanics of what u are doing
like a monster spawn during a gathering is harder to detect than a simple button (and u need to implement in the macro a combat system for just gathering, this increase the complexity of the macro :P)

for ex all the captcha question for register in a forum or download a file etc are all readable by bots (i think google don't have problem to bypass any of that stupid checks, but normal people don't have the knowledge of google :P so u can block atleast 99% of people in that way)

[KeithStone]

I also think you drown if you run out of stam in the water.

no you don't.

Also, you only unlearn something when you stop using it- it doesn't go down just because something else went up- unless there's a softcap number that they haven't told us about.

[coca]

auto-it has simple pixel detection abilities that use can use colors shapes or pictures not just simple screen positions for triggers.

But I hate to have to agree with tazerboy on this issue.. the elemination of "safe zones" whtch I have preached about would eliminate the problem of afk macroing inside your area without a player being able to intervene.

[Senusret]

A macro can be created for everything but also any macro can be detected. It is fairly obvious if someone is using a macro and not difficult to detect if you are looking. If caught character = deleted. So maybe people will still macro but that is the risk they take and I don't think anyone wants to waste their time with macros only to have their character deleted. So with that policy there will be justice at least. People should get what they deserve.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Fact is you are wanting to ban people who pay a monthly sub for playing the game more than you. I think macroing is for chumps with no skill but it doesn't actually do any harm. It just means they will have more skill points than you but typically less skill.

[ifireallymust]

Unattended macroing isn't playing the game, and it shouldn't be easier for cheaters who do this to get away with it by allowing macros. If there's too much clicking, that should be revised by the devs, macros are not the answer.

[Derek]

If there's too much clicking, that should be revised by the devs

This.

[Derek]

This.

If there's too much clicking, that should be revised by the devs

[Saorlan]

Absolutely no macros - No way - Not ever - No thank you.

However the game could be a bit more click friendly - auto forage and queue of crafting very much needed.

[Saorlan]

Absolutely no macros - No way - Not ever - No thank you.

However the game could be a bit more click friendly - auto forage and queue of crafting very much needed.

[Trigun]

i was thinking on make a macro for build ^^ like right click on items + click on make button wait and again :D
the question is why u need to select the materials + the tool for make something? u have it in the bag... isn't enought?

[Vicid]

Macroing is always the result of slow skill gain. I think an easy way to prevent most macro's is to remove skill gain when you're too hungry/thursty

[Haunt]

If they could eliminate macroing, I am all for it. I just don't know how they will do that. One way to make macroing a lot harder is to not allow skill gains on protected lands. If people had to macro out where they can be killed, the community could police it. Just a thought.

[Ikisis]

NO!

[Cyrus]

No.
And use ingame random minigame, challenge, reflexion, or whatever, to prevent macroing by game design.
And use ingame stats to detect and prevent macroing real time.
And let hidden macroers under a cascade rot to hell forever with a tracking skill to find and report them all.

[Cracky69]

Macroing is always the result of slow skill gain. I think an easy way to prevent most macro's is to remove skill gain when you're too hungry/thursty

This is would certainly help.

Macroers are already ruining this game. The only good news here is that at least there is still a majority that think it sucks. Still, this cheat your way through a game mentality is leaving me cold. I for one have no interest of playing with, or against macroers.

[schlock]

I really just wanted to get peoples opinions on it. i can see only around 10% of people would support that in general. Keeping in mind that its still illegal its kinda like asking a pothead if he should think weed should be legalised.

There is absolutely no comparison between asking a macroer if macroing should be legal and asking a pot head if weed should be legalized. Macroing gives you an advantage, smoking pot to the degree to be called a pot head dulls your senses and leaves you at a disadvantage. Just don't ask a pot head that because they will try their best to disagree...ahhh, huh huuh,....yeah......

[Plague]

There is absolutely no comparison between asking a macroer if macroing should be legal and asking a pot head if weed should be legalized. Macroing gives you an advantage, smoking pot to the degree to be called a pot head dulls your senses and leaves you at a disadvantage. Just don't ask a pot head that because they will try their best to disagree...ahhh, huh huuh,....yeah......

Dulls your senses, callms you down and kills cancer cells. That is if you don't mix it with tobacco and don't burn it (use vaporizer). Don't mix hemp with tobacco kids, you are missing the point of it entirely. You are better of making brownies then smoking it.

As for macros I do not envy dev team with this one, it will be a hard nut to crack. Say no to macros! (unless you are disabled and need them).

[Andius]

I think a good solution would be something I think at least some games need to do, macro problem or no macro problem. Kill the grind time required to become an effective PvPer. If you can grind up to a PVP build that is on even footing with any other in a week-month, of reasonable play time, it would really kill the desire to macro in a lot of players. Combine that with account deletions for people caught macroing, and you've solved about 90% of the problem at least.

PLUS, this would enhance the overall game in my opinion. Most PVPer don't want to be grinding combat stats, they want to be fighting people. Make PVP more based off skills as a player than stats, with some slight bonuses for gear to keep armor and weapon makers in demand. One of the huge reasons I left Darkfall is I said "Skrew it, I've been grinding for months and I am still missing tons of skills that give huge PVP advantages, I don't want to play a game in hopes of having fun someday. I want to have fun." People will still have crafting and city building as a time sink, but for the people who want to be fighting, we can sink our time into fighting. And I know from Freelancer, fighting for hours and hours and hours a day in a no-PVP restrictions environment can keep a combat lover like myself occupied for a very long time on its own. About five years to be more specific.

[Roxout]

I really couldn't care less about macroing in this game. The server crashes and disconnects so often I can't really see it being that much of an issue.

[Commissar123]

Allowing macroing would take out all of the fun of macroing!

You just can't stop me.

[Sirius]

Didn't read this thread. IMO the point to take home is that they're already illegal but that this rule either needs to be enforced or eliminated.

[Vandali]

If macro'ing is a problem then the only people to blame are the ones who developed the game.

Hiding i'm guessing is the most macro'd skill in this game at present, why? because it requires the spamming of your hide key over and over, so whose fault is that?

Now what if they had made hiding a mini game instead, where the right and left mouse buttons worked as steps while in the hiding stance, and there was an additional bar that required you to balance as you tip-toed along or you would become unhidden and wouldn't gain in skill because you weren't hidden long enough?
It would take advanced coding to counter the balance bar, but why would someone bother when they could stealth around the game happily knowing the skill is raising as they played.

To me macro's are rampant in games because of poor and lazy features. People are referring to how macro'ers destroyed darkfall, but it was the developers lack of vision that destroyed it by allowing everyone to raise everything in a never ending grind, so people macro'd for an edge and others to keep pace.

So at the end of the day, if a developer creates something thats tedious and dull, then proceeds to punish players for their own mistakes, then that quite frankly is absurd, as is this black and white poll that's simply been added to provoke mass hysteria, rather than a discussion as to why people are macro'ing.

[d3m0nd0]

No Macro's! Just make the game so there is no benefit to do so, focus the game so its more along the terms of gear and twitch based combat. And crafting needs more anti-macro features. And hiding needs to be less effective.

[Belight]

If macro'ing is a problem then the only people to blame are the ones who developed the game.

Hiding i'm guessing is the most macro'd skill in this game at present, why? because it requires the spamming of your hide key over and over, so whose fault is that?

Now what if they had made hiding a mini game instead, where the right and left mouse buttons worked as steps while in the hiding stance, and there was an additional bar that required you to balance as you tip-toed along or you would become unhidden and wouldn't gain in skill because you weren't hidden long enough?
It would take advanced coding to counter the balance bar, but why would someone bother when they could stealth around the game happily knowing the skill is raising as they played.

To me macro's are rampant in games because of poor and lazy features. People are referring to how macro'ers destroyed darkfall, but it was the developers lack of vision that destroyed it by allowing everyone to raise everything in a never ending grind, so people macro'd for an edge and others to keep pace.

So at the end of the day, if a developer creates something thats tedious and dull, then proceeds to punish players for their own mistakes, then that quite frankly is absurd, as is this black and white poll that's simply been added to provoke mass hysteria, rather than a discussion as to why people are macro'ing.

DING DING DING! We have a winner!!!

[Zenmaster13]

DING DING DING! We have a winner!!!

Sorry but you are wrong. You and the other mal-informed posters who keep touting "it's a design problem, it's the games fault, it's the devs fault,etc." are all wrong. This is not an opinion.

Stop your hypotheticals and give us some concrete solutions. You guys keep saying "all they have to do is program the game properly and all will be well". How exactly do you propose this? Please do not use conjecture or fanciful ideas on how it should work.

Also, seeing as how computer gaming has been around for quite a long time now, I would like you to list some games where the devs "got it right" and totally prevented macroing. Good luck to you on that journey because it will follow along something like "The Old Man and The Sea" if you catch my meaning.

[Belight]

Sorry but you are wrong. You and the other mal-informed posters who keep touting "it's a design problem, it's the games fault, it's the devs fault,etc." are all wrong. This is not an opinion.

Stop your hypotheticals and give us some concrete solutions. You guys keep saying "all they have to do is program the game properly and all will be well". How exactly do you propose this? Please do not use conjecture or fanciful ideas on how it should work.

Also, seeing as how computer gaming has been around for quite a long time now, I would like you to list some games where the devs "got it right" and totally prevented macroing. Good luck to you on that journey because it will follow along something like "The Old Man and The Sea" if you catch my meaning.

Sorry, but you are wrong. See how easy it is to claim something like that? And yes, I assure you it is an opinion. Don't kid yourself.

We have given concreate solutions. In the original post I quoted the poster gave a perfect example of how hiding could work in a fun, involving way, that strongly deters macroing. Is it my responsibility to offer a macroing solution for every single feature in Xsyon? They better put me on their payroll if that's the case.

I could turn around and say the same shit about your solution of banning macroers. How do you propose the company enforce that? How do they prove it? How do they detect it? How do they get the money to pay all the people it would take to enforce such a thing? Do you think the macroers will just be magically banned by the ToS?

Your argument supports wasting dev time and money to police players and reduce their number of paying subscribers, rather than spend that time and money on building better game mechanics that have the side effects of deterring macro use!

Again, I can just as easily turn this around on you, give me one example where enforcing the ToS against macros has removed macroing from a game?

[Zenmaster13]

Sorry, but you are wrong. See how easy it is to claim something like that? And yes, I assure you it is an opinion. Don't kid yourself.

We have given concreate solutions. In the original post I quoted the poster gave a perfect example of how hiding could work in a fun, involving way, that strongly deters macroing. Is it my responsibility to offer a macroing solution for every single feature in Xsyon? They better put me on their payroll if that's the case.

I could turn around and say the same shit about your solution of banning macroers. How do you propose the company enforce that? How do they prove it? How do they detect it? How do they get the money to pay all the people it would take to enforce such a thing? Do you think the macroers will just be magically banned by the ToS?

Your argument supports wasting dev time and money to police players and reduce their number of paying subscribers, rather than spend that time and money on building better game mechanics that have the side effects of deterring macro use!

Again, I can just as easily turn this around on you, give me one example where enforcing the ToS against macros has removed macroing from a game?

Funny stuff. Anyone in any argument can take an opposite postion. It's called debating.

I am a programmer. I know what I am talking about. I ask you a question, but you refuse to answer, then respond with a bunch of hyperbole. Very poor argument.

Go ahead name a few games that you cannot macro. Avoid this question if you like, but your proof would be in the answer.

Your "solution" was read by me, that is why I respond. It is not a solution. Any input you or anyone else provides CAN be macroed. Deny all you want, but proof is your only recourse here.

You will never be on a dev payroll with your solutions.

Though I could, I will not give you lessons on how to track offenders. The company can enforce rules however they like. Money comes from you, I, and every other customer. No macroers will not be "magically" banned, but rather quite practically, by an employee of the company. See it's not that hard to answer questions. Your turn =)

[Killarai]

I don't want to butt in too much, but the first game that comes to mind is FFXIV, no matter how horrid that game is at the moment, they managed to do away with any possible macroing aside from their own macro editor for simple key to action/text macros.

A small mini-game for crafting with a randomized invisible target that you get 3 or so chances to hit and gives you graded material or crafted item, it works brilliantly and they use it for every crafting and resource gathering skill in the game.

[Belight]

Funny stuff. Anyone in any argument can take an opposite postion. It's called debating.
Yeah, only I'm not claiming my opinions are fact.

I am a programmer. I know what I am talking about. I ask you a question, but you refuse to answer, then respond with a bunch of hyperbole. Very poor argument.
Programmers are a dime a dozen, good for you, it doesn't mean you have good ideas, and imagination, and the end all knowledge to any video game debate..

Go ahead name a few games that you cannot macro. Avoid this question if you like, but your proof would be in the answer.
No one is talking about existing games. It's completely beside the point. The point is that it's of our opinion that dev time would be better spent creating new, creative, and macro deterrant features. Or we could just accept the same old bullshit mindnumbing click, click, click systems and then bitch about people macroing them? What good is programming without imagination and innovation?

Your "solution" was read by me, that is why I respond. It is not a solution. Any input you or anyone else provides CAN be macroed. Deny all you want, but proof is your only recourse here.
I thought it was a great solution. It sounds fun and it would make macroing very hard. No one said anything about making a perfect system. We are talking about DETERRING macro usage, which is a very realistic idea.

You will never be on a dev payroll with your solutions.
Thanks, Miss Cleo, any other psychic revelations you'd like to make about a complete stranger?

Though I could, I will not give you lessons on how to track offenders. The company can enforce rules however they like. Money comes from you, I, and every other customer. No macroers will not be "magically" banned, but rather quite practically, by an employee of the company. See it's not that hard to answer questions. Your turn =)
I disagree that it is practical to ban someone (if it was this thread wouldnt even exist), and I disagree that it is a good use of money and resources, and I disagree that banning some macros will solve the issue. If you care to disprove me with your all mighty programmer wisdom, I'm all ears. If the devs don't want to take steps to create new ideas, systems, and ways for players to be immersed then there wont be any money at all, because their game will crash and burn like sooooo many others that did the exact same thing.


But, opinions are opinions I suppose.

[Killarai]

Eehh, I'd like to also say that the Dev's would like to refrain from banning any potential customers, even if they're offenders to the greatest degree.
I've managed users as customers, we'd manage their statistics and weigh in whether it was worth the removal for our own profit, this is just how an MMO works.

These were hackers, mind you.. Not even simple macroers.

It is very good practice to develop systems that sway customers to play the way the game is meant to be played and not just an easy grind fest managed through a macro application.

This is only from my own personal experience dealing with customers on an MMO in a professional setting, I have no idea how Xsyon manages the users or how they would like to in the near future. - It's not an option to keep up a management for macroers, banning and warning them, you may do this while a system for this is in the works that will sway them otherwise, however.

[ac1dtrip]

Funny stuff. Anyone in any argument can take an opposite postion. It's called debating.

I am a programmer. I know what I am talking about. I ask you a question, but you refuse to answer, then respond with a bunch of hyperbole. Very poor argument.

Go ahead name a few games that you cannot macro. Avoid this question if you like, but your proof would be in the answer.

Your "solution" was read by me, that is why I respond. It is not a solution. Any input you or anyone else provides CAN be macroed. Deny all you want, but proof is your only recourse here.

You will never be on a dev payroll with your solutions.

Though I could, I will not give you lessons on how to track offenders. The company can enforce rules however they like. Money comes from you, I, and every other customer. No macroers will not be "magically" banned, but rather quite practically, by an employee of the company. See it's not that hard to answer questions. Your turn =)

Beer pong.

[Belight]

Eehh, I'd like to also say that the Dev's would like to refrain from banning any potential customers, even if they're offenders to the greatest degree.
I've managed users as customers, we'd manage their statistics and weigh in whether it was worth the removal for our own profit, this is just how an MMO works.

These were hackers, mind you.. Not even simple macroers.

It is very good practice to develop systems that sway customers to play the way the game is meant to be played and not just an easy grind fest managed through a macro application.

This is only from my own personal experience dealing with customers on an MMO in a professional setting, I have no idea how Xsyon manages the users or how they would like to in the near future. - It's not an option to keep up a management for macroers, banning and warning them, you may do this while a system for this is in the works that will sway them otherwise, however.

Insightful! Thank you.

For the record, I voted "No" on this poll. I don't support macroing, but I don't think a witch hunt is the best solution.

[d3m0nd0]

Insightful! Thank you.

For the record, I voted "No" on this poll. I don't support macroing, but I don't think a witch hunt is the best solution.

Why not both a witch hunt and a fix for macroing form developers? And how about the community helping to? Instead of everyone point fingers at each other maybe then something would be done. Hope this thread gets closed soon.
This discussion about macros is well.....

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JeFvJtXhBaw/TMsNXTqOJMI/AAAAAAAATxA/jrsZs3Y8GU8/s400/donkey-1.jpg

Note: The Donkey isnt dead, he's just rolling over, but if he did die, This would be the best position for a picture to be taken and posted in a topic just like this one.

[Killarai]

You don't mass ban when it can potentially harm your already dwindling revenue.
A "Witch Hunt" won't do anything, best they'll get at this point is a short period suspension or a "stern talking to".

[d3m0nd0]

I said Witch hunt, not a ban, there are other effective ways of dealing with a macro'er. One is possily destroying the stats hes macro'd. But once a again, refer to the donkey.

[Sirius]

Sorry, but you are wrong. [rest deleted]

Recommend you not try having an intelligent conversation with Zenmaster.

Either he doesn't listen, or he can't follow a discussion or seriously entertain a point he disagrees with. The fact that he smugly demanded you describe a hypothetical solution to the problem under discussion without using "conjecture" should say it all. He's also one of those people who thinks programming is incredibly hard and thus that any ability in that department is an infallible sign not just of intelligence, but of intellectual superiority over those around him.

[ifireallymust]

If macroers aren't all going to be warned then banned, then I think a very public and entertaining punishment involving stat loss and name publication should be implemented. That way we'll all know who the macroers are and what happens to them when they're caught. I volunteer to dig the bear pit!

[d3m0nd0]

If macroers aren't all going to be warned then banned, then I think a very public and entertaining punishment involving stat loss and name publication should be implemented. That way we'll all know who the macroers are and what happens to them when they're caught. I volunteer to dig the bear pit!

Marry me!

And yes I believe those that Cheat/Hack/Macro Should be named and shamed. Stat Loss is the way forward vs macro'ers.

[Belight]

If macroers aren't all going to be warned then banned, then I think a very public and entertaining punishment involving stat loss and name publication should be implemented. That way we'll all know who the macroers are and what happens to them when they're caught. I volunteer to dig the bear pit!

I feel in game punishment is the best form of punishment for macroing aside from a disconnect. Stat roll backs, debuffs, and so on.

Public punishment could certainly open up a lot of possibilities for creativity and fun... But you'd have to be careful not to break game immersion.

[mindtrigger]

The game play should be made less macro-able. Period.

Trying to guess who is macroing by the way they are playing the game won't work since the nature of the game play is that it appears identical to using a macro.. Giving players the ability to "police" such activity would be misused and abused. Trying to detect it programmatically will fail, and will require a lot of resources the devs could put elsewhere. Repetitive button mashing game play is the problem, not the players.

When you build a game where the entire system is based around how many times someone presses a static key (or static combo of keys), you are going to get macroing. I'm sure a good portion of the people who are complaining about it here have already done some themselves.

This has been around forever. Programmable game controllers for consoles do the same thing as the G15 does. There are also programs out there that will allow one person to control multiple keyboards simultaneously. Welcome to the world of computers.

Make the game more interesting, interactive and variable and the macroing will slow down to a crawl all by itself.

[NexAnima]

The game play should be made less macro-able. Period.

Trying to guess who is macroing by the way they are playing the game won't work since the nature of the game play is that it appears identical to using a macro.. Giving players the ability to "police" such activity would be misused and abused. Trying to detect it programmatically will fail, and will require a lot of resources the devs could put elsewhere. Repetitive button mashing game play is the problem, not the players.

When you build a game where the entire system is based around how many times someone presses a static key (or static combo of keys), you are going to get macroing. I'm sure a good portion of the people who are complaining about it here have already done some themselves.

This has been around forever. Programmable game controllers for consoles do the same thing as the G15 does. There are also programs out there that will allow one person to control multiple keyboards simultaneously. Welcome to the world of computers.

Make the game more interesting, interactive and variable and the macroing will slow down to a crawl all by itself.


Oddly enough my g15 keyboard won't repeat in xsyon, single keystrokes work but timed intervals will not. Maybe they found a way to stop it.

[Niburu]

Oddly enough my g15 keyboard won't repeat in xsyon, single keystrokes work but timed intervals will not. Maybe they found a way to stop it.

No, works perfect.

Xsyon does a really good job since many actions require you to grab a random spot in your bin and move the mouse alot. Some actions are easy macro-able like fishing,scavanging(it's harder now since you find alot of heavy items),foraging.

Macroing should be ofc forbbiden and punished but instead like most people here in this thread who simply say ban the people and thats it there is more to this porblem. If you can macro something easy it is a boring repetetiv task and the developers should make it more interesting and less easy to macro.

For example collecting grass/metal whatever. you can ALWAYS carry 4 and it is nothing more then a left mouse click. So why not just make it auto gathering so every player has equal chance ? The non repetetiv part is to move your character around and storage the 4 ressources somewhere......

[Gustaph]

Nice necro Niburu. :)

Didn't you notice the date on which the previous post was? You think that guy has been waiting a year for a reply?

[Niburu]

Nice necro Niburu. :)

Didn't you notice the date on which the previous post was? You think that guy has been waiting a year for a reply?

Must be a system error then because it was shown to me as someone made a new post :-(

[joexxxz]

There is a way to eliminate macroing. Is to have a mini game for every skill in the game.