Law of unintended concequences

[Silicor]

Law of unintended consequences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences)

Many of us had fun in beta even with the half implemented systems. The great potential could be seen and we had fun figuring out how things work and building our little piece of the dream, however...

When large populations start settling in after the servers stabilize, I think we can expect to see griefing and abuse of all these half finished systems that will make us all rethink our vision of the game. I'm going to list a few here, but I'm not giving away any secrets. We all know they though of them and are ready to cause trouble.

For example

teraforming - Have a nice junk pile by your camp you plan on using. What if a big griefing guild builds a bunch of homesteads on it and starts deleting it with teraforming? Nice big walls or pits built for no purpose other than to annoy you?
village safe zones - I like the idea of having a safe home. However, in the hands of someone malicious, they can do things you don't like right next to your home and be totally safe in their safe zone too. Obviously the can teraform or build walls to limit your movement, but they could also use baskets (or any object) to put offensive words on the ground next to your camp and you won't be able to do anything about it.
easy totem placement - With no requirements to place a totem and only a 6 hour reset. Homesteads can be placed, walls constructed or natural resources destroyed with transforming. Once they ruin your area, they can pack up go to bed and ruin another area after they wake up.


There can be things done about all of these, but it won't before we start playing. I'd consider the law of unintended consequences when you are making your demands on the forums because the best intentions sometimes lead to disastrous results.

[KeithStone]

you make some vaild points.

[orious13]

You should test if you can teraform junk piles...

I doubt it... just like you can't teraform rocks.

If someone messes with some terrain in a homestead/tribe and exits it to do it somewhere else, someone can set at tribe where theres was deleted and have control of all that they did.

It wouldn't take long to undo what they did. You can't forget how much that dirt weighs while you teraform.

If it gets out of hand, the guides will probable fix it if it's an exploit. I don't see a lot of this happening.

[Silicor]

It has been tested, you destroy junk by teraforming it. How heavy dirt is is no problem, just set down a basket and you can set it in there or just destroy it.

[Viper66]

Folks that are in this game to simply gank everyone will run players from the game unless players get protection somehow, its that simple,, If I personally cant play the game as intended because everytime I try to build up my craft or Tribe area some asshats come along with no better intent than to find exploits and screw with me , I and some of my friends will leave this game period!..I love PvP but not in this type of game,, I play BadCompany 2, and World War 2 on line its pure PvP and I get my fix,, Gankers cant play those type games to long as everyone is a ganker...lol.. no advantage over anyone other than experience in those type of games..its just me and my 2 cents worth nothing more..

I posted this in another thread .. but it applies here I think.. thanks all..

[Vandali]

Adding in that a trash heap has to be depleted before that area can be terraformed wouldn't be a bad idea.

It's a guarantee that this will be abused.

[Silicor]

I'm sure things can and will be better with time. But if your going to let some griefers run you off easily, I suggest not playing at launch. This game is going to be raw and rough for a while.

[bruisie159]

im starting to think people are just going a bit mad now, worrying about extremes. Look, the devs and guides are pretty sensible and helpful here, if someone is harrasing you through use of an exploit or just purposfully trying to force you out of the game for no good reason then im sure you will be able to turn to a guide for help.

Come on people lets keep things in perspective a little, everytime i check these forums these days we seem to be discussing some scare story or another.

[SOFWarrior]

Min-maxers and power-gamers will take advantage of every loophole and exploit possible. That's why games like these need to have the most airtight, well-considered rulesets as possible from the outset.

Honestly, needing guides to interfere all the time is an indicator of a badly constructed set of sandbox rules, in that it infringes on the "freedom" that is a supposed hallmark of such games.

[darg75]

I'm detecting a "people are bad, apart from me" mindset here. Just because it could be done, does it mean that it will? If it is done, why do you think it would be done on a large scale? Would you do it to someone else?

I believe that people are generally good. It's a possibility that there will be a few out there that get kicks out of being annoying - will theyfollow you around Xyson hassling you at every step - I personally doubt it.

I think it's more likely that if (or if you prefer - when) bad behaviour like this occurs it won't be on a scale to ruin the game. If it does get out of hand the player base will deal with it. If they can't and it's impacting the game for a large group of people, the developers will deal with it.

[ifireallymust]

Yesterday, I saw a griefer get dealt with by a Guide in a rather amusing and effective way. So there's a defininte line, and definite action is taken when that line is crossed. I'd report any person or tribe pulling any of the listed garbage and see what happens, if it ever happens at all. Which I hope not, but there are some inventive little puppies out there.

[SOFWarrior]

I'm detecting a "people are bad, apart from me" mindset here. Just because it could be done, does it mean that it will? If it is done, why do you think it would be done on a large scale? Would you do it to someone else?

I believe that people are generally good. It's a possibility that there will be a few out there that get kicks out of being annoying - will theyfollow you around Xyson hassling you at every step - I personally doubt it.

I think it's more likely that if (or if you prefer - when) bad behaviour like this occurs it won't be on a scale to ruin the game. If it does get out of hand the player base will deal with it. If they can't and it's impacting the game for a large group of people, the developers will deal with it.

It's probably not a good idea to ignore history. In this case, these types of problems have negatively impacted other similar games, often on a scale that disrupts the enjoyment of a lot of people.

It won't be just the exploits listed in this thread, in that they were just an example. It'll be the totality of exploits, dupes, hacks, etc that will create an overall negative affect that the entire community will feel.

[SOFWarrior]

Yesterday, I saw a griefer get dealt with by a Guide in a rather amusing and effective way. So there's a defininte line, and definite action is taken when that line is crossed. I'd report any person or tribe pulling any of the listed garbage and see what happens, if it ever happens at all. Which I hope not, but there are some inventive little puppies out there.

If the rules allow you to do it, how will everyone know where the "line" is?

If a tribe is evil, and RP'ing it, will a guide be there to contantly interfere with the RP scenario they are trying to play out in the "freedom" of a sandbox game?

[ifireallymust]

If the rules allow you to do it, how will everyone know where the "line" is?

If a tribe is evil, and RP'ing it, will a guide be there to contantly interfere with the RP scenario they are trying to play out in the "freedom" of a sandbox game?


You better ask a guide or ask in the forum for any specifics on that one, I think I've jumped to enough conclusions for one day. My feet hurt and my legs are tired!

[orious13]

The Guides are like mythical gods and goddesses. Now it's immersive... lol.

[Silicor]

I'm not here to start mass panic, but I am here for the long haul. I started this post because people are convinced their position is best without even listening to others or considering the downstream impacts. I just want everyone to be aware that for every good idea, there may be be many issues lurking in the shadows. Just be open during discussions and listen to all view points.

I have no confidence in guides being able to control griefing if the ruleset has huge holes. Sure they can do it now with few people online, but once things get rolling look out.

Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but I'm with SOFWarrior, history tells us that many people get their kicks ruining other folks fun. With the game being so immature, it is going to take a long while to straighten out.

Looking at all the "TO BE" content and the current state of the game, I'd bet the next wipe won't be the last....

[KeithStone]

I'm detecting a "people are bad, apart from me" mindset here. Just because it could be done, does it mean that it will? If it is done, why do you think it would be done on a large scale? Would you do it to someone else?

I believe that people are generally good. It's a possibility that there will be a few out there that get kicks out of being annoying - will theyfollow you around Xyson hassling you at every step - I personally doubt it.

I think it's more likely that if (or if you prefer - when) bad behaviour like this occurs it won't be on a scale to ruin the game. If it does get out of hand the player base will deal with it. If they can't and it's impacting the game for a large group of people, the developers will deal with it.

it was proven in DF that if there is a loophole everyone wants in on it.

[coca]

I will pay guilds to surround safe zone with totems and "camp them" for being tools.

[Xx1327]

These things are the kind you would report and get those people booted from the game. Even tho the quality of our guides, GMs, is questionable, a consequence of letting players become guides... Hopi

I'm glad to say tho that Templar and its players would never sink to such levels just because of a little competition we'll grief and destroy players through fair means of gameplay, I personally go to great lengths to stop players from doing game breaking behaviors like what was stated. When it comes down to it, its up to the individual player to stop things like this.

I also agree that all the "new comers" to threads lately have greatly diminished its quality, and the majority of these threads totally redundant and just plain stupid. A consequence of allowing everyone here tho...

[coca]

"allowing me here?" I paid my 40 bux.

I also run a rather large guild and am scouting this game as a main game for us. I don't want only a pvp game.. but I dont want certain areas to be invulnerable. I loved this game at first but if the community want to just sit in their tribe area untouched crafting this game isn't the game we thought it was.

[tilla]

I love the constant implication that the devs favor Hopi. We ran for our land like everyone else, and got a corrupt totem that doesn't work to boot.

[Xx1327]

"allowing me here?" I paid my 40 bux.

I also run a rather large guild and am scouting this game as a main game for us. I don't want only a pvp game.. but I dont want certain areas to be invulnerable. I loved this game at first but if the community want to just sit in their tribe area untouched crafting this game isn't the game we thought it was.

yea comments like that don't add much. Obviously I'm not talking bout every recent player and people new to community, but adding unnecessary polls and threads that just blur whats going on and annoys the established, and in the loop people, gets old fast.

take you for example, you haven't done enough research to realize safe zones are only so that a rich game can develop, so temporary. There are no cities or sites with lore and history to intrigue the gamer, they need to be created and grown by the tribes during the prelude phase; we're essentially creating the game. Then the total war can begin.

I don't mean to talk down to you or others but its hard not to on this subject. plus i'm alil phased right now so i'm not sure if i'm making my point as clear as i want to.

[Xx1327]

I love the constant implication that the devs favor Hopi. We ran for our land like everyone else, and got a corrupt totem that doesn't work to boot.

no ones talking about that, don't worry the case will be brought to light soon enough.

[tilla]

No offense but you were talking about it. And I responded to that. We know the 'case' as it stands and it's literally nothing no other tribe can and will get out of the guides.

[Gypsy]

There is a huge problem with the ability to flag a safe zone on and off. Tribes can level up, farm, build, gear up etc in safety and when they feel they are "ready" can turn the safe zone off. The moment they feel they are losing the battle they will turn the safe zone back on and continue to grow in peace. So whats the advantage of an evil tribe? Or the tribe that chooses not to have a safe zone from day one? The current safe zone structure deters any pvp or tribal wars.

Dont get me wrong, it doesnt stop us from having pvp, but it adds a penalty for those who want to participate 100%.

[tilla]

Who says it can be turned off again? Ideally it would be at least a 24 hour timer if not longer, but if the devs were really serious about balance it would be a permanent change.

[mrcalhou]

Having it as a toggle in the first place is pretty imbalanced. Unless there are pro's and con's to every action, then the great majority will always choose the safe way. I'm not against safe zones, but I do think some thought needs to be put into properly balancing it with respect to the rest of the game. It's not impossible to cater to PvP'ers and and PvE'ers. Eve did it.

[yoori]

There is a huge problem with the ability to flag a safe zone on and off. Tribes can level up, farm, build, gear up etc in safety and when they feel they are "ready" can turn the safe zone off. The moment they feel they are losing the battle they will turn the safe zone back on and continue to grow in peace. So whats the advantage of an evil tribe? Or the tribe that chooses not to have a safe zone from day one? The current safe zone structure deters any pvp or tribal wars.

Dont get me wrong, it doesnt stop us from having pvp, but it adds a penalty for those who want to participate 100%.

I haven't seen any info that you'll be able to "change" to safezone at any time, for all I know it might be one time choice. I haven't seen any statement on what will happen with safezones when tribes go to war. We don't know if extension areas will be safe zones.

Let Jooky take care of problems with code he has now and you have full two months of free gameplay to ask question. I'm sure you'll get your answers.

And Tilla X was implying that hopi members were Guides.

[Xx1327]

No offense but you were talking about it. And I responded to that. We know the 'case' as it stands and it's literally nothing no other tribe can and will get out of the guides.

getting off topic here but oh well, you don't know what I'm talking about. no ones talking bout the devs but in game guides and if its not them then there is a serious glitch with teleporting when entering hopi territory

[Jadzia]

getting off topic here but oh well, you don't know what I'm talking about. no ones talking bout the devs but in game guides and if its not them then there is a serious glitch with teleporting when entering hopi territory

You get teleported when you enter Hopi territory ?