No risk to crafting, Needs Penalties

[fflhktsn]

Currently in game there is little to no risk in being a pve focused crafter.

A crafing character can set his totem near reources, harvest in saftey, and once they are all depleted, abandon the totem, log off during the cooldown and place a new one near new resources.

A crafter doesnt need to leave the safezone to skill up and progress, in fact most stay at home near the saftey of their premission locked baskets to do so.

You cant even terraform without remaining inside your magical safe zone.

A combat character on the otherhand, needs to do all of his skill leveling far from any safe zone, animals are so hard to come by that other players are the better route. However if a death penalty that removes stats and skills is implimented, it puts all of the risk of the game on the combat characters.

Currently the largest tribe is full of crafters...how many crafters does one tribe need? Does a tribe of 10 or 20 need to have 15 crafters? Is this realistic in a dangerous and new world ravaged by an apocalypse? Civilizations of past relied on a few "crafters" in which to support the many "combat" people of their armies, defense of the tribe was the number one important factor of their survival, not who can weave the most baskets.

My hope is that this turns into a civilized and respectfull discussion about the purpose of a crafter heavy game, removing the no risk gameplay invloved with crafting, and why all of the risk must be plased on a player who chooses to defend said crafters, having to progress outside the safe zone and without any other means to progress other than hunting people.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

This game does seem horribly unbalanced. It's rewarding those who don't want any sort of challenge. I do have faith that this will change later.

[kombi]

combat is always the risky part... however i really hope they do make it so the crafter bunch has to actualy step up and defend them even if that means supporting fighters to protect there lifestyle.. its how it should be.. your tribe fighters protect the crafters and keep out the preditors... otherwise.. just give everyone everthing.. nothing will be worth anything

[kombi]

you also gotta realize this game is designed that there will be a point when the junk is gone.... and those crafters cant just hide in there homes anymore to survive..

[fflhktsn]

combat is always the risky part... however i really hope they do make it so the crafter bunch has to actualy step up and defend them even if that means supporting fighters to protect there lifestyle.. its how it should be.. your tribe fighters protect the crafters and keep out the preditors... otherwise.. just give everyone everthing.. nothing will be worth anything

No i like that having crafters as somewhat defenseless, it creates a balanced need for combat character to protect them. That is my aim here, create balance.

During our limited time in game, i have come across too few combat character protecting crafters, it was mostly crafter, harvesting alone, which is unrealistic. My hope if that we can give purpose to both crafter and combat characters, by either creating some sort of penalty for crafting inside a safezone, a penalty for crafter only tribe or penalties for really doing anything inside a safezone, as any combat character must leve said safezone in order to progess.

[FabricSoftener]

the crafting risk is identical to Darkfall as it has been for nearly 2 years.

[fflhktsn]

you also gotta realize this game is designed that there will be a point when the junk is gone.... and those crafters cant just hide in there homes anymore to survive..


Ive thought about that, not much stopping them from abandoning their totem, logging off for the cooldown, returning to place their totem in a new location.

[blackzilla]

Currently in game there is little to no risk in being a pve focused crafter.

A crafing character can set his totem near reources, harvest in saftey, and once they are all depleted, abandon the totem, log off during the cooldown and place a new one near new resources.

A crafter doesnt need to leave the safezone to skill up and progress, in fact most stay at home near the saftey of their premission locked baskets to do so.

You cant even terraform without remaining inside your magical safe zone.

A combat character on the otherhand, needs to do all of his skill leveling far from any safe zone, animals are so hard to come by that other players are the better route. However if a death penalty that removes stats and skills is implimented, it puts all of the risk of the game on the combat characters.

Currently the largest tribe is full of crafters...how many crafters does one tribe need? Does a tribe of 10 or 20 need to have 15 crafters? Is this realistic in a dangerous and new world ravaged by an apocalypse? Civilizations of past relied on a few "crafters" in which to support the many "combat" people of their armies, defense of the tribe was the number one important factor of their survival, not who can weave the most baskets.

My hope is that this turns into a civilized and respectfull discussion about the purpose of a crafter heavy game, removing the no risk gameplay invloved with crafting, and why all of the risk must be plased on a player who chooses to defend said crafters, having to progress outside the safe zone and without any other means to progress other than hunting people.

Risk is when you see "Crafting failed" trust me the heart pounds when it takes forever to get some components and only watch them vanish. Just sayin...

[fflhktsn]

the crafting risk is identical to Darkfall as it has been for nearly 2 years.

No in DF, there were ways to get around tower defenses ( friend does the dmg and kills...dies in the process, hes friend nearby loots)

Anyone who was warring another guild had no saftey whatsoever.

There was no ability to pick up your safe zone and move it to a new location

Resource nodes respawned

[MrCarrier]

So?

Looks to me you're singling out the solo player. That player better be able to keep everything he owns in his backpack and pouches. Because if I come strolling across a bunch of baskets in a recently stripped area of ground, you know what I'm gonna do?

Communicate to my tribe that I just found a lot of stuff. Temp leave my tribe, place my own homestead totem right next to all them goodies. Then they belong to me. (Yes, it works. Me and my tribe-mates tested it) I take everything I can, take down my totem, and sit safely in my tribe area for the 30 minute timer to tick away so I can get invited back to my original tribe.

And if that solo crafter is able to carry all his stuff in his backpack and pouches, chances are he is moving pretty darn slow. This makes for an easy kill. All his stuff will get looted anyway.

Sounds like a risk to me...

[fflhktsn]

Risk is when you see "Crafting failed" trust me the heart pounds when it takes forever to get some components and only watch them vanish. Just sayin...

as a combat character, i can loose all those items i cant make quite quickly. also if the death penalty is implimented, not only will i lose my stuff but my hard earned stats, stats that a crafter will never lose, especially if they stay inside of their safzone, and move it when needed.

[dxwarlock]

how is it as little risk as you state?
we dont have unlimited trees inside out ring, after an hour..we need to leave to get trees.
and nothing more vulnerable than a crafter with low strength and stamina, trying to drag a full log to his camp at snail speed...its like going downtown at midnight with money taped to your pants and wearing handcuffs trying to fight people off of you.
we don't have fish in our ring usually, we are defenseless of sort while fishing(nothing in one hand fishing pole in the other..which doesn't do much for damage)

even if we DO manage to see you right before the first swing, we have to stop fishing, try to switch to a combat weapon, and fight you back
by that time the combat PvP player has hit us twice, for massive damage due to the 90str/90agility...us fighting back usually is useless mostly, as we have more stats in crafting related, compared to HP, combat speed, and damage.

so we try to run..with out non-90 agility, we are easy slow targets just giving you free back slaps until we die.

so granted the 'active" risks we have that we purposely put ourselves into are low 9as compared to a PvP that goes in knowing its a fight)
but our 'passive' risks of what CAN happen isn't as low as your vision of the impenetrable bubble of safety makes it seem :)

[fflhktsn]

So?

Looks to me you're singling out the solo player. That player better be able to keep everything he owns in his backpack and pouches. Because if I come strolling across a bunch of baskets in a recently stripped area of ground, you know what I'm gonna do?

Communicate to my tribe that I just found a lot of stuff. Temp leave my tribe, place my own homestead totem right next to all them goodies. Then they belong to me. (Yes, it works. Me and my tribe-mates tested it) I take everything I can, take down my totem, and sit safely in my tribe area for the 30 minute timer to tick away so I can get invited back to my original tribe.

And if that solo crafter is able to carry all his stuff in his backpack and pouches, chances are he is moving pretty darn slow. This makes for an easy kill. All his stuff will get looted anyway.

Sounds like a risk to me...

Im talking about in a tribe, the crafter stay at home in safety, harvesting and terriforming insides the safe zone, all while progressing....me as the tribe defender must venture out and skill my cobat skills while risking my loot and possibly my stats. see the diffrence?

[fflhktsn]

how is it as little risk as you state?
we dont have unlimited trees inside out ring, after an hour..we need to leave to get trees.
and nothing more vulnerable than a crafter with low strength and stamina, trying to drag a full log to his camp at snail speed...its like going downtown at midnight with money taped to your pants and wearing handcuffs trying to fight people off of you.
we don't have fish in our ring usually, we are defenseless of sort while fishing(nothing in one hand fishing pole in the other..which doesn't do much for damage)

even if we DO manage to see you right before the first swing, we have to stop fishing, try to switch to a combat weapon, and fight you back
by that time the combat PvP player has hit us twice, for massive damge due to the 90str/90agility...which usually is useless mostly, as we have more stats in crafting related, compared to HP, combat speed, and damage.

so we try to run..with out non-90 agility, we are easy slow targets just giving you free back slaps until we die.

so granted the 'active" risks we have that we purposely put ourselves into are low 9as compared to a PvP that goes in knowing its a fight)
but our 'passive' risks of what CAN happen isn't as low as your vision of the impenetrable bubble of safety makes it seem :)

How many trees do you need? Trees can grow back. The problem is the junk piles and mobil safezones. Depleted your resources? Just abandon the totem, log off for a while, return and place it near a new resource heavy location. You really dont need to be building defenses anyway if you got a magical safe zone.

[dxwarlock]

How many trees do you need? Trees can grow back. The problem is the junk piles and mobil safezones. Depleted your resources? Just abandon the totem, log off for a while, return and place it near a new resource heavy location. You really dont need to be building defenses anyway if you got a magical safe zone.

you ever waited for a tree to grow back? or made a wall? they need 10 logs each..so the 5 trees we have makes 3 walls secrions and 1/2 a tent..
6 of us cleared out the entire junk pile inside our ring in 4 days..
you really think crafters want to build a village, waste that time getting baskets, buildings to put them in, walls, etc..to go
'lets move, abandon all this we did, and start over..because we have no junk within 50m of us"
no we dont..

[ifireallymust]

Civilizations even in especially dangerous eras have never been able to muster the resources to have more than a fraction of their population dedicated to combat (or for that matter to religion, science, or anything else beyond food, clothing, and shelter). The more intricate the combat gear, the more non-combat labor was required to make and maintain it. It took the labor of many farmers and artisans to support one knight and a warhorse. It took far more labor to construct and maintain defense fortifications. Although Xsyon isn't identical to medieval Europe, I still don't see why a tribe of 20 with more than half of them crafters is unrealistic. It seems very realistic to me, and if mining, farming, and the keeping of livestock are implemented, more crafters will be necessary.

[MrCarrier]

Im talking about in a tribe, the crafter stay at home in safety, harvesting and terriforming insides the safe zone, all while progressing....me as the tribe defender must venture out and skill my cobat skills while risking my loot and possibly my stats. see the diffrence?

No. IMO, if that's the life a crafter wants to lead, then let them go for it. Sounds boring to me, but to each his own. The 'sandbox' game allows them this privilege.

Want an easier way to skill up your combat? Have one tribe-mate volunteer to leave the tribe for 30 minutes. Beat on each other for 30 minutes. Little risk of losing your stuff since you guys are friends, right? Skill up, rinse, repeat.

[Xidian]

How many trees do you need? Trees can grow back. The problem is the junk piles and mobil safezones. Depleted your resources? Just abandon the totem, log off for a while, return and place it near a new resource heavy location. You really dont need to be building defenses anyway if you got a magical safe zone.

Those magical safe zones are only temporary. =P

[Armand]

I came out of Eve where MANY players were happy with the near total security of guarded systems. Rapid gains were to be had in low/nul security space, and reflected a proper risk/reward ratio.

If some people are happy crafting grass baskets all day, leave them be (tribal land warfare will address this after prelude). You'll have plenty of chances to gank hunters and scavengers who are more likely to be ready for your antics for the time being.

A lot of you should also come to realize that your way of playing does not reflect everyone else's. If you're so starved for blood and recognition, go have a shot at some 0.0 sec space in Eve or some Battlefield 2.

[yoori]

The role of the crafter is to supply others with what they need. They're not combat speced so why would they engage combat if they can't win, they have people to protect them.

If crafters would loose stats on fail craft they would loose all their stats in one day. It's in combat speced person interest to have highly skilled crafter on their side when your weapon dmg and durability depends on crafting skill. It's the same with armor. If there is no one to build you a house, your comfort will drop affecting your combat skills.
You can do it yourself but it'll be low quality and break after few days or faster(combat decreases item durability further).

If you think you'll be able to loot every thing you need, than you'll probably wrong couse crafters won't be carrying anything and others will be PvP players.

[Chavoda]

Guys :P don't feed the troll :P fflhktsn Loves to make you all angry

[Yokilla]

Those magical safe zones are only temporary. =P

No they are not. Xsyon stated that he was looking at making the safe zones optional. Not temporary.

[fflhktsn]

I came out of Eve where MANY players were happy with the near total security of guarded systems. Rapid gains were to be had in low/nul security space, and reflected a proper risk/reward ratio.

If some people are happy crafting grass baskets all day, leave them be (tribal land warfare will address this after prelude). You'll have plenty of chances to gank hunters and scavengers who are more likely to be ready for your antics for the time being.

A lot of you should also come to realize that your way of playing does not reflect everyone else's. If you're so starved for blood and recognition, go have a shot at some 0.0 sec space in Eve or some Battlefield 2.

EvE is a totally diffrent game. The safezones weakend those who clung to them. It was quite boring inside the safezones, but as the pvp areas had the best reources, the long time players and blobs only got stronger, while those in the safezones struggled to compete.

[fflhktsn]

The role of the crafter is to supply others with what they need. They're not combat speced so why would they engage combat if they can't win, they have people to protect them.

If crafters would loose stats on fail craft they would loose all their stats in one day. It's in combat speced person interest to have highly skilled crafter on their side when your weapon dmg and durability depends on crafting skill. It's the same with armor. If there is no one to build you a house, your comfort will drop affecting your combat skills.
You can do it yourself but it'll be low quality and break after few days or faster(combat decreases item durability further).

If you think you'll be able to loot every thing you need, than you'll probably wrong couse crafters won't be carrying anything and others will be PvP players.

Perhaps then training dummies for combat characters so i too can progress without leaving the safety of my safezone? I know its boring but its an advantage a crafter has that a combat does not enjoy. Im looking for balance.

[Xidian]

No they are not. Xsyon stated that he was looking at making the safe zones optional. Not temporary.

I could have sworn that the devs said that after prelude (6-9months) or something like that they would remove all safe zones and then you can get killed anywhere.

[dxwarlock]

Perhaps then training dummies for combat characters so i too can progress without leaving the safety of my safezone? I know its boring but its an advantage a crafter has that a combat does not enjoy. Im looking for balance.

but your one of the same asking for more realism..the current state is more realism.
just like mankind long ago..those that wanted to risk it all, and gain valor for it went off to fight, those that didnt stayed behind..and worked and crafted for those wanting to take on more danger by joining the legions of fighters..

for every blacksmith that did it because he like the job, there was ones that did it because they didnt like the alternative of possibly dying in combat..and prefered the safety of the town unless it got raided.

[fflhktsn]

I could have sworn that the devs said that after prelude (6-9months) or something like that they would remove all safe zones and then you can get killed anywhere.

If they are removed, a crafter can still progress within the confines of their fortified camp, where a combat character must take on risk to hunt something in which to porgress on.

Baskets dont fight back, and skill your character, bears and people do.

[yoori]

Ive thought about that, not much stopping them from abandoning their totem, logging off for the cooldown, returning to place their totem in a new location.

But what's the point in that, you'll need house to keep your comfort up. Comfort affects every skill. Building isn't something you do instantly, it requires lots of resources.
Besides what's the point of moving and crafting, just to craft what's fun in that, if you craft something, it's to supply your tribe or sell it.

Resources disapear very quickly why would anyone want to waste it by rebuilding village every few days.

[fflhktsn]

but your one of the same asking for more realism..the current state is more realism.
just like mankind long ago..those that wanted to risk it all, and gain valor for it went off to fight, those that didnt stayed behind..and worked and crafted for those wanting to take on more danger by joining the legions of fighters..

for every blacksmith that did it because he like the job, there was ones that did it because they didnt like the alternative of possibly dying in combat..and prefered the safety of the town unless it got raided.


A blacksmith was required to feed the kings armies with needed armor. these armies would in turn protect the blacksmith from invading barbarians. It took few blacksmiths to supply a whole army. That is my point, there shouldnt be 90% of the game running around making baskets, there should only be a need for a few crafters to support the combat characters defending their saftey.

What we have now, is a world full of blacksmiths, pumping out armor in saftey, with few combat soldiers in which to protect them and use said armor. that is the balance issue im talking about.

[dxwarlock]

If they are removed, a crafter can still progress within the confines of their fortified camp, where a combat character must take on risk to hunt something in which to porgress on.

Baskets dont fight back, and skill your character, bears and people do.

but isnt that risk and rush of them fighting back what draws people to want to take that path? isnt it want drew you to want to be a fighter, the thrill of the hunt and the risk involved?
so in turn the same risk that attracted you, is now the one you complain is unfairly put upon you..

[Yokilla]

I could have sworn that the devs said that after prelude (6-9months) or something like that they would remove all safe zones and then you can get killed anywhere.

I looked it up. I was partially mistaken. Here is a direct quote from a post dated 2/21/2011
Hey guys, sorry for not clearing this up earlier. I only just saw it a little while ago and had to confirm what I thought was going to happen.

Here is the plan:

At first all tribal areas will be safe then, at some point down the road, tribal safe zones will be optional.

If your tribe wishes to play more realistically with the chance of being attacked at any point you may do so. However, if you wish to be more of a crafting tribe and not have to look over your shoulder all the time you may keep the safe zone on.

Hope this clears things up.

[djext2000]

Perhaps then training dummies for combat characters so i too can progress without leaving the safety of my safezone? I know its boring but its an advantage a crafter has that a combat does not enjoy. Im looking for balance.

Balance? You don't want "balance", you as the fox just want let into the henhouse. You just want to be able to rape anyone you come across with no barriers. You say you want the "realism" of a post-apocolyptic world? Well, then let's just have total game permadeath. You engage in combat and you die, your account is cancelled, game over. In "real life" you don't get to respawn a few moments later. You die. This would never happen of course because IT'S A GAME. It's not a full on combat to the full 100% game either. It's a game like many others that feature crafting, society building, and combat. PVP is not the be all end all. Neither is crafting.

[byrgar]

A blacksmith was required to feed the kings armies with needed armor. these armies would in turn protect the blacksmith from invading barbarians. It took few blacksmiths to supply a whole army. That is my point, there shouldnt be 90% of the game running around making baskets, there should only be a need for a few crafters to support the combat characters defending their saftey.

What we have now, is a world full of blacksmiths, pumping out armor in saftey, with few combat soldiers in which to protect them and use said armor. that is the balance issue im talking about.

as I already replied in another thread you were posting drivel in, this game is not based around PVP ;P so why shouldnt it have more crafter types, as that IS what it is based around

[ifireallymust]

A blacksmith was required to feed the kings armies with needed armor. these armies would in turn protect the blacksmith from invading barbarians. It took few blacksmiths to supply a whole army. That is my point, there shouldnt be 90% of the game running around making baskets, there should only be a need for a few crafters to support the combat characters defending their saftey.

Few blacksmiths, yes, but lots of farmers, weavers, tanners, masons, and carpenters. In this game, we aren't Mongol or Native American horse tribes (which probably had the maximum percentage of fighters per population of any group, ever, but I'm too lazy to look it up and find out for sure). We're not especially nomadic and we do build defensive structures, so a few blacksmiths wouldn't cut it.

[fflhktsn]

but isnt that risk and rush of them fighting back what draws people to want to take that path? isnt it want drew you to want to be a fighter, the thrill of the hunt and the risk involved?
so in turn the same risk that attracted you, is now the one you complain is unfairly put upon you..

Whats the thrill in nerfing my character though combat, risking all my gear in the process, when i could just sit in my safezone and craft to progress?

The safezones and penalties (if implimented) towards those who choose the combat route are why 90% of this game is sitting at their totem weaving baskets. Its not balanced.

fact of the matter is, theres not enough combat characters. its no fun killing crafters who dont even fight back...but theres nothing else for me to progress on.

if they made combat characters more appealing, there would be people to fight against, who fight back.

this is why the whole game, aside from a handful, are crafters. We got too much crafting....what need is there for all those crafted items?

its the games policy towards protecting crafters is what is nullifying a need for combat characters, which is why so few are.

[dxwarlock]

by that note, can I not also say its unfairly biased that fighters get the thrill of person to person combat to level..when us crafters have to stand around and grind inanimate objects to gain levels, with possibility of failure and loosing that sawblade that we searched days for in the process? its unfair and unjust that the fighters have a higher risk factor, and sense of thrill while using their gameplay style vs us crafters.

and that fighters should have to grind on test dummies for hours on end to gain points, with the possibility of breaking his weapons on the dummy.

its 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other..grass on the other side of the fence thing...

[dxwarlock]

Whats the thrill in nerfing my character though combat, risking all my gear in the process, when i could just sit in my safezone and craft to progress?

The safezones and penalties (if implimented) towards those who choose the combat route are why 90% of this game is sitting at their totem weaving baskets. Its not balanced.

fact of the matter is, theres not enough combat characters. its no fun killing crafters who dont even fight back...but theres nothing else for me to progress on.

if they made combat characters more appealing, there would be people to fight against, who fight back.

this is why the whole game, aside from a handful, are crafters. We got too much crafting....what need is there for all those crafted items?

then why are you a fighter, if the risk/gain/thrill of doing so is what you abore? its like me asking why would I go sky diving..risking my life..for the small gain of a rush for 45 seconds of free fall...its the risk/thrill itself that makes the one doing such actions enjoy it..not seeing the risk as a negative.

[djext2000]

The safezones and penalties (if implimented) towards those who choose the combat route are why 90% of this game is sitting at their totem weaving baskets. Its not balanced.




lol...90% of the game is sitting around crafting because that's what 90% of the community chooses to do with thier time...CRAFT. Why is there a need to come into a game and force people to play your way? Seems like the community has already decided how they want to play. Go play a freakin shooter or something ....

[Gypsy]

Reduce the amount of xp that crafters gain from crafting. It would force them to leave the tribal boundaries to hunt and level up.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

So once your camp is built and yoru walls up. Why will anyone trade with you and what will you craft if there is no need for combat? How do you think the game will survive if there is no need of your services? Will you pay 15 a month to craft baskets?

[fflhktsn]

by that note, can I not also say its unfairly biased that fighters get the thrill of person to person combat to level..when us crafters have to stand around and grind inanimate objects to gain levels, with possibility of failure and loosing that sawblade that we searched days for in the process? its unfair and unjust that the fighters have a higher risk factor, and sense of thrill while using their gameplay style vs us crafters.

and that fighters should have to grind on test dummies for hours on end to gain points, with the possibility of breaking his weapons on the dummy.

its 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other..grass on the other side of the fence thing...

Well perhaps crafting would be more of a thrill if you were not protected by a safe zone...

Perhaps people would absolutly need you so much that they were willing to fight to the death for your survival, because your crafted goods were actually needed.

Right now your just one crafter out of a thousand, who cares if you die, the tribes got 15 of you.

Also, when i was a crafter...no one attacked me, there were no combat characters looking to harm me, it was boring, which is why i decided to go combat, it was a path that no one was choosing.

[dxwarlock]

The safezones and penalties (if implimented) towards those who choose the combat route are why 90% of this game is sitting at their totem weaving baskets. Its not balanced

no thats not the only reason, they could have no penalties, and great rewards for even when you loose..and Id still craft.
its not the reward or lack of that motivates me, its what I enjoy doing in my offtime from work and family that drives my playstyle.

so dont assume its the risk of loss that drives everyone to be a crafter..when many of its its not even a factor in the decision

[Dontaze_Mebro]

I can justify neglecting my family to play a game that gets my adrenaline pumping, but you must be a monster to ignore them to craft baskets.

[fflhktsn]

no thats not the only reason, they could have no penalties, and great rewards for even when you loose..and Id still craft.
its not the reward or lack of that motivates me, its what I enjoy doing in my offtime from work and family that drives my playstyle.

so dont assume its the risk of loss that drives everyone to be a crafter..when many of its its not even a factor in the decision

The game needs crafters like you...its just that everyone is a crafter because its the easiest rout to take currently. Theres the balance issue right there.

Your not special as a crafter....your a nobody...your tribe has nothing but people who can make stuff becasue theres no need to defend you.

Wouldnt you want to be something special, something needed in the game? I bet you would....

[byrgar]

Well perhaps crafting would be more of a thrill if you were not protected by a safe zone...

Perhaps people would absolutly need you so much that they were willing to fight to the death for your survival, because your crafted goods were actually needed.

Right now your just one crafter out of a thousand, who cares if you die, the tribes got 15 of you.


What sets Xsyon apart is a focus on building and creating a new world and not relying on PvP as the driving force.

taken from

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/01/06/massively-exclusive-jordi-grau-davis-answers-our-xsyon-question/

get over it, the focus is not on PVP, the balance you claim you want would be against what the game is all about.

[dxwarlock]

I guess what im getting at..is at the end of the day, its a game..people want to play a game to enjoy it..
as apposed to real life..where the risk of a job is a unfortunate sideffect that you have no control over.

In a game, its wide playerbase needs to have a wide range of "risk vs playtime" spectrum to keep its "varying degree of willingness to do so" playerbase around.

for one crafter that may enjoy the risk, and craft outside his ring just for the thrill someone might jump him, there is one that doesn't think thats wise.

for every fighter like you that sees the chance of loosing it all when someone else cant as a negative, there is one that sees the risk of loosing it all at the chance to gain all what they other has in under a minute a huge bonus.

it takes all kinda to 'round' out a successful game, he needs to cater to at least a small range of some of those types to keep it going.

with no diversity in playstyle you have no diversity of playerbase..

[MrKrueak]

A combat character on the otherhand, needs to do all of his skill leveling far from any safe zone, animals are so hard to come by that other players are the better route. However if a death penalty that removes stats and skills is implimented, it puts all of the risk of the game on the combat characters.
.

as you know i disagree with most of your op but the above you are forgetting that currently there are only 4 types of animals but in the not so distant future there will be more eventually i believe for a total of 40 if i remember correctly. you are also assuming that the crafters will not venture out, i don't see that as being the case there is not one place you can place your totem and get everything you need especially once the scrap piles are depleted. besides you know what they say about assumptions :P

[Zephyr]

Civilizations of past relied on a few "crafters" in which to support the many "combat" people of their armies, defense of the tribe was the number one important factor of their survival, not who can weave the most baskets.

Are you talking about the real world? Prior to the 20th century, 90% of the population was involved in food production in some way. Even with ancient hunter-gatherer tribes, the vast majority of their time and effort was involved with what we gamers would call "crafting."

[Dontaze_Mebro]

taken from

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/01/06/massively-exclusive-jordi-grau-davis-answers-our-xsyon-question/

get over it, the focus is not on PVP, the balance you claim you want would be against what the game is all about.

You can throw that quote up all you like, but fact is without a driving pvp force you will have no reason to craft weapons or armor, and noone will need to trade with you if they have 15 crafters in their tribe already. You will eventually get bored with crafting grass tents and go play something else that lets you craft and not pay a monthly fee.

[orious13]

you also gotta realize this game is designed that there will be a point when the junk is gone.... and those crafters cant just hide in there homes anymore to survive..

This...

I'm going to say this generally and not to the OP directly. I know you wanted a "peaceful" debate, but this thread really is no different than others that have been posted and it's tiring.

You act like every crafter will have a spot next to a junk pile. You act like junk piles will be in forever. You act like no one is going to leave their little safe zone.

The prelude is made specifically so that the crafting basis can be built up. The risk with crafting is losing all crafting resources just like the risk of combat is losing all combat resources. Gathering resources should have varying risks. It makes sense to me. You can say "oh well loosing resources isn't the same as losing armor". You can't really judge that as that is quite subjective.

/rant_on
People keep saying that "PvE" players (not the same as crafting players) do nothing but whine, but that's not really the case here. I'm just as tired of PvE/themepark players trying to change the mechanics of PvP focused/sandbox games as I am hearing PvP focussed players trying to change the mechanics of this game. That doesn't mean things will not change because they WILL. It's just that the whining is on the other foot now, and you all need to realize this. You can be hardcore...you can be a PvP GOD, but you still are whining. Let them make the game and if you have non-whining suggestions put them in the suggestions thread.

The key here is compromise. Being someone who loves pvp and really could care less about crafting... I actually want to craft in this game. I believe that there is a great compromise at the moment and great compromises planned. The game is for multiple play styles. Currently 1 style is really working (crafting) the second is coming soon (pve) the third may be in a few weeks to a month (combat) and the fourth might be in 6 months (warfare).
/rant_off

[dxwarlock]

Wouldnt you want to be something special, something needed in the game? I bet you would....

not really no, I enjoy being the faceless helpful player that gives to who needs, without need for recognition to do so..

if I spend 2 years in the game, and help those that need things enjoy it..my job is done.I can leave the game and no one remember my name from adam..my personal satisfaction of knowing that I furthered others enjoyment of the game is enough for me.

[fflhktsn]

taken from

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/01/06/massively-exclusive-jordi-grau-davis-answers-our-xsyon-question/

get over it, the focus is not on PVP, the balance you claim you want would be against what the game is all about.

Thats not what this is about. its about creating balance, and creating a need for the crafting you all enjoy. Without penalties towards crafting, inorder to give people a reason to roll a combat character, you have no puropse in game, you are just one of 15 crafters, all able to make the same things, in a 15 man tribe...thats no fun.

Im not trying to force you the crafter to pvp, im trying to give people who would do either, to choose a combat character to protect you the crafter. Currently there is no need to protect a crafter who spend all of his time scavanging near the safezone or crafting inside the safezone.

Balance gives all paths chosen a better use and better function, and everyone is happy with the choice they made.

[ifireallymust]

PKer posts tend to contradict themselves a bit. First you guys yell at us for going out of our safe areas with anything valuable, then you get mad that we stay in our safe areas and make baskets (those baskets are to put our valuables in so we can leave our safe zones!).

[Yokilla]

I can justify neglecting my family to play a game that gets my adrenaline pumping, but you must be a monster to ignore them to craft baskets.

That is just sad. I love crafting. I love pvp in many games (not this one though). I love my family (wife n 3 kids). I neglect them too often to nurish my endorphin habit (endorphins are released when we do things we like/excite us such as fall in love, have an orgasm, totaly gank some n00b, etc). Regardless of how much I love my endorphins I cannot justify it. When my children are grown, I am certain I will look back on this time with regret.


At least, I will when I'm not playing whatever game has my attention at that time. :D

[MrKrueak]

No they are not. Xsyon stated that he was looking at making the safe zones optional. Not temporary.

i believe that statement was clarified to be only for the prelude as the last statement i read was that he was thinking of allowing tribes to not have a safe zone early with the full intent of all safe zones being gone once prelude is over unless he stated differently more recent.

[fflhktsn]

This...

I'm going to say this generally and not to the OP directly. I know you wanted a "peaceful" debate, but this thread really is no different than others that have been posted and it's tiring.

You act like every crafter will have a spot next to a junk pile. You act like junk piles will be in forever. You act like no one is going to leave their little safe zone.

The prelude is made specifically so that the crafting basis can be built up. The risk with crafting is losing all crafting resources just like the risk of combat is losing all combat resources. Gathering resources should have varying risks. It makes sense to me. You can say "oh well loosing resources isn't the same as losing armor". You can't really judge that as that is quite subjective.

/rant_on
People keep saying that "PvE" players (not the same as crafting players) do nothing but whine, but that's not really the case here. I'm just as tired of PvE/themepark players trying to change the mechanics of PvP focused/sandbox games as I am hearing PvP focussed players trying to change the mechanics of this game. That doesn't mean things will not change because they WILL. It's just that the whining is on the other foot now, and you all need to realize this. You can be hardcore...you can be a PvP GOD, but you still are whining. Let them make the game and if you have non-whining suggestions put them in the suggestions thread.

The key here is compromise. Being someone who loves pvp and really could care less about crafting... I actually want to craft in this game. I believe that there is a great compromise at the moment and great compromises planned. The game is for multiple play styles. Currently 1 style is really working (crafting) the second is coming soon (pve) the third may be in a few weeks to a month (combat) and the fourth might be in 6 months (warfare).
/rant_off

abandon the totem, logoff for cooldown, return and place totem in new spot, repeat. how dangerous does that sound....mobil safezones.....

[dxwarlock]

abandon the totem, logoff for cooldown, return and place totem in new spot, repeat. how dangerous does that sound....mobil safezones.....

you keep missing my reply of "what crafters are really going to get an entire village up, and go "hmm we ran out of junk here..lets just ditch the 2 months of stuff here, and move down the road to start over from scratch".

by your logic, its MUCH easier for a PvP nomad to do this so he has a safe haven to run to to regen and rest to go back out..than a crafting village with weeks of work and investment into building up their area.

[byrgar]

You can throw that quote up all you like, but fact is without a driving pvp force you will have no reason to craft weapons or armor, and noone will need to trade with you if they have 15 crafters in their tribe already. You will eventually get bored with crafting grass tents and go play something else that lets you craft and not pay a monthly fee.
PVP is not the driving force, as much as some of you seem to want it to be. PVP is a part of the game, sure, but a small part compared to everything else.
And as for getting bored? I think you are projecting, as without PVP being the driving force, it is the PVPers that will get bored and leave.
But lets face it, the PVPers will be off like a swarm of locusts to the next game that has a hint of FFA PVP, regardless of what happens here.

[mgilbrtsn]

As someone pointed out, there are always the fails in crafting to make their job more difficult. Also, when the safety zones are removed, this issue will remedy itself. I don't think we need to put any artificial things in place at this time and go with the current lore/process that is unfolding.

[MrKrueak]

EvE is a totally diffrent game. The safezones weakend those who clung to them. It was quite boring inside the safezones, but as the pvp areas had the best reources, the long time players and blobs only got stronger, while those in the safezones struggled to compete.

i played eve for almost 7 years and very rarly visited 0.0 spaces as i didn't like the blob warfare but i was in low sec to high most often and i can guarantee you atleast on a individual basis your statement isn't true as i could go toe to toe with anyone given a fair fight sometimes unfair depending on opponents skill level. even a 1 year player could compete against a 7 year vet if skilled correctly since only so many sp were used for a specific ship type.

I've said it before EVE online is the only sandbox full loot mmo that has done it right and have not failed infact they just keep expanding feature wise and subcription wise.

[bruisie159]

why should there actually be more risk for a pve crafter? There is little risk because there really is little risk. If you're going around in the wilds looking for fights there is more risk, obviously.

Why should an artificial risk to quietly staying at home be created?

Join the army = increased risk.
Get involved in street fights = increased risk
Stay at home and make baskets = low risk

its the way it should be!

and this part of the OP is most relevant - risk placed with the person who CHOOSES to defend crafters.

[MrKrueak]

I looked it up. I was partially mistaken. Here is a direct quote from a post dated 2/21/2011

you quoted virtus not xyson the next day when he clarified what virtus meant :)

[fflhktsn]

i played eve for almost 7 years and very rarly visited 0.0 spaces as i didn't like the blob warfare but i was in low sec to high most often and i can guarantee you atleast on a individual basis your statement isn't true as i could go toe to toe with anyone given a fair fight sometimes unfair depending on opponents skill level. even a 1 year player could compete against a 7 year vet if skilled correctly since only so many sp were used for a specific ship type.

I've said it before EVE online is the only sandbox full loot mmo that has done it right and have not failed infact they just keep expanding feature wise and subcription wise.

you stated exaclty the issue at hand. In seven years of time you rarely visited the dangerous areas. people are not going to visit dangerous areas if given the choice not to.

[Vandali]

I'd like to give crafters a reward for killing those that see them as easy prey.

I'm thinking the ability to put their wannabe assailants in crafted stocks for a time period, so their tribe and passersby can laugh and throw rotten eggs at them for being beaten. It could be based on the difference in a combat skill, so losing to a crafter type has a penalty for the self proclaimed baddies. :D

[fflhktsn]

why should there actually be more risk for a pve crafter? There is little risk because there really is little risk. If you're going around in the wilds looking for fights there is more risk, obviously.

Why should an artificial risk to quietly staying at home be created?

Join the army = increased risk.
Get involved in street fights = increased risk
Stay at home and make baskets = low risk

its the way it should be!

and this part of the OP is most relevant - risk placed with the person who CHOOSES to defend crafters.

Yes but you have no need and no purpose without the combat characters. no need for defenses in a safe zone, and your nothing special or unique, or even needed as the 15th crafter in your 15 man tribe, especially since everyone can craft everything. You dont need armor either if you spend your time within a 10 second sprint of your safezone either.

it all completely nullifies a large part of the game.

[orious13]

you stated exaclty the issue at hand. In seven years of time you rarely visited the dangerous areas. people are not going to visit dangerous areas if given the choice not to.

If YOU will visit the dangerous areas, you can expect MANY other people will. Not everyone, but many. Not necessarily most, but many. I definitely would in time.

[MrCarrier]

abandon the totem, logoff for cooldown, return and place totem in new spot, repeat. how dangerous does that sound....mobil safezones.....

Why do you care? Ignore those VERY FEW folks who would do something similar to that, and go find other people you can gank. Thats the beauty of a sandbox type game, you have a choice!

You make it sound like the whole server is going to do something like this. Which is not the case.

Let the Devs finish the game. Let it play out for a bit. Then come back with your suggestions on how you can more easily gank other players w/ no risk to yourself.

[Yokilla]

i believe that statement was clarified to be only for the prelude as the last statement i read was that he was thinking of allowing tribes to not have a safe zone early with the full intent of all safe zones being gone once prelude is over unless he stated differently more recent.

My bad, it wasn't Xsyon. From 2/21/2011:
Hey guys, sorry for not clearing this up earlier. I only just saw it a little while ago and had to confirm what I thought was going to happen.

Here is the plan:

At first all tribal areas will be safe then, at some point down the road, tribal safe zones will be optional.

If your tribe wishes to play more realistically with the chance of being attacked at any point you may do so. However, if you wish to be more of a crafting tribe and not have to look over your shoulder all the time you may keep the safe zone on.

Hope this clears things up.

[fflhktsn]

I guess at the heart of this issue is a sandbox where the game rules, not the player rules, are dictating the paths that players will choose. This is why we see so few combat characters and everyone is a friendly crafter. Not exactly a dangerous post apocalypic world with tribal warfare over resources now is it....

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Sounds like Hello Kitty they way they describe it.

[dxwarlock]

why should there actually be more risk for a pve crafter? There is little risk because there really is little risk. If you're going around in the wilds looking for fights there is more risk, obviously.

Why should an artificial risk to quietly staying at home be created?

Join the army = increased risk.
Get involved in street fights = increased risk
Stay at home and make baskets = low risk

its the way it should be!

i think its more he enjoys PvP, but lothes it for the exact reason he enjoys it..
the risk (him dying and loosing it all) vs reward (the other guy dies and looses it all) are 2 sides of the same coin. but he prefers to only see one side as being moderataly good gain, and the other a huge devestating loss.

and crafters are a different breed than the action packed, high risk vs high reward path he chooses (which is what that path is about to start with) he prefers that others also have that same 'balance"

by contrast, say I do day trading and risk my entire nestegg on turning a profit...I demand that any other jobtype, also go into the workplace with the ability to loose thier entire savings in the course of a normal work day...as its the only way to balance people into the same risk/reward ratio I choose to live by.

[MrCarrier]

I guess at the heart of this issue is a sandbox where the game rules, not the player rules, are dictating the paths that players will choose. This is why we see so few combat characters and everyone is a friendly crafter. Not exactly a dangerous post apocalypic world with tribal warfare over resources now is it....

Wait until the game goes live. I'm sure you'll get your fill of PvP when ever you desire it. Give it some time bro. Patience.

[fflhktsn]

If YOU will visit the dangerous areas, you can expect MANY other people will. Not everyone, but many. Not necessarily most, but many. I definitely would in time.

Thats not what im seeing in game...totems placed on top of junk piles so they dont have to leave the safe zones, people scavanging and foraging within 5 second sprint of the safe zones. Once the resources run out they can move the safe zones to a better spot. its all quite ridiculous. there is no risk involved with crafting currently, the only risk resides in the combat characters, but since there are so few, its just as boring as weaving baskets at your totem.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

really crafters NEVER have to leave their tribal area. They can just offer quests to get all the materials they need.

[bruisie159]

Reduce the amount of xp that crafters gain from crafting. It would force them to leave the tribal boundaries to hunt and level up.

or..reduce xp gained from combat and force pvpers to sit in tribe lands and craft?

[ifireallymust]

I'd like to give crafters a reward for killing those that see them as easy prey.

I'm thinking the ability to put their wannabe assailants in crafted stocks for a time period, so their tribe and passersby can laugh and throw rotten eggs at them for being beaten. It could be based on the difference in a combat skill, so losing to a crafter type has a penalty for the self proclaimed baddies. :D

Yes! But let solo players build the stocks and bring defeated miscreants to a nearby, receptive friendly tribe. We could drag them to the nearby tribe in crafted chains, for a more realistic feel, and to give the prisoner's friends a chance to rescue their defeated pal.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

or..reduce xp gained from combat and force pvpers to sit in tribe lands and craft?

Or link the game to the forums and you lose XP for trolling.

[dxwarlock]

you seem to be missing the entire "risk vs reward" aspect of it..combat high risk, high reward...
you risk all you own, to gain all he owns in a 30 second battle. you can get full set of tools, armor, weapons..etc

crafter..low risk, low reward..in the time it took you to suddenly gain an entire weapon and armor set killing someone, I gathered 1/4 of the cloth I need to make a pair of shoes..

[KeithStone]

Ive thought about that, not much stopping them from abandoning their totem, logging off for the cooldown, returning to place their totem in a new location.

I don't think this will happen, land is going to be a valuable commdity. You disband and you won't have another place to put a totem down.

[FabricSoftener]

I guess at the heart of this issue is a sandbox where the game rules, not the player rules, are dictating the paths that players will choose. This is why we see so few combat characters and everyone is a friendly crafter. Not exactly a dangerous post apocalypic world with tribal warfare over resources now is it....

its really not.

at this time this really isnt a pvp game, yeah its got pvp in it, yeah its full loot even though all the loot you can get from pvp you can get literally by bending over and picking it up from the ground but when it comes to pvp games this really isnt the game guys. It might be later I dont know. I personally dont care, I come from Darkfall and if I want pvp I can get all I can possibly stand so I dont need a pvp fix anymore (barely ever need it to be honest but it is fun during warfare).

so really guys, lets get back to talking about stuff like building canoes and the ablity to deficate in the forest and leave the pvp talk for real pvp games...seriously

[fflhktsn]

or..reduce xp gained from combat and force pvpers to sit in tribe lands and craft?

I think that no XP should be gained while inside a safezone. Perhaps the further away from your totem the more xp gained. This way people wont have a reason to set their totem on top of a junk pile, or craft inside the safe confines of it. It would require you to have a combat character friend for protection, it would create a need for the combat characters and the game could be somewhat balanced in this aspect.

[Yokilla]

you quoted virtus not xyson the next day when he clarified what virtus meant :)

Refering to the quote as being from Xsyon was the mistake part. I looked for the Xsyon post and couldn't find it. Will you please quote it/link it?

[MrKrueak]

you stated exaclty the issue at hand. In seven years of time you rarely visited the dangerous areas. people are not going to visit dangerous areas if given the choice not to.

you have it wrong, 0.0 is actually pretty safe. it's all alliance controlled and alliance protected even if you were not part of their alliance you could pay them for access and be protected all the same. basically the alliances is what concord was for high sec(0.5 to 1.0 sec). the real dangerous area was 0.1 to 0.4 sec that is where all the PK'ers or in eve talk Pirates were at. that is where all the ganking took place. 0.0 is to eve what tribal warfare will be for xsyon.

[orious13]

Sounds like Hello Kitty they way they describe it.

You're blind.

There is FFA pvp.

You will find people to kill, protect, and befriend.

Wars are coming.

You have to WAIT.

Man these people are so thick.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

I want the option to defecate in my victims backpack and have ti become bound to them

[fflhktsn]

you have it wrong, 0.0 is actually pretty safe. it's all alliance controlled and alliance protected even if you were not part of their alliance you could pay them for access and be protected all the same. basically the alliances is what concord was for high sec(0.5 to 1.0 sec). the real dangerous area was 0.1 to 0.4 sec that is where all the PK'ers or in eve talk Pirates were at. that is where all the ganking took place. 0.0 is to eve what tribal warfare will be for xsyon.

it is safe because you have combat ships to escort you, we need to create the need for combat ships in this game, so that we can escort you.

Also eve safezones were static, this game offers mobil safezones. very diffrent

[Dontaze_Mebro]

You're blind.

There is FFA pvp.

You will find people to kill, protect, and befriend.

Wars are coming.

You have to WAIT.

Man these people are so thick.

I was referring to the carebear crafters. I know that it's coming, and i can't wait.

[dxwarlock]

moved.

[bruisie159]

Yes but you have no need and no purpose without the combat characters. no need for defenses in a safe zone, and your nothing special or unique, or even needed as the 15th crafter in your 15 man tribe, especially since everyone can craft everything. You dont need armor either if you spend your time within a 10 second sprint of your safezone either.

it all completely nullifies a large part of the game.

But you act like nobody will be interested in pvp if its niot totally open and FFA, obviously this is not true, plenty of games have been succesful both crafting and pvp wise with some rules in place to regulate whats going on. SWG for example. PVP will still happen on a tribal level and in the wilds as people move around.
It really seems like this is just not the game for you personally but i do beleive plently will continue to play and enjoy both crafting and pvp with the current ruleset plans.

[MrKrueak]

it is safe because you have combat ships to escort you, we need to create the need for combat ships in this game, so that we can escort you.

Also eve safezones were static, this game offers mobil safezones. very diffrent

i think you are worrying over nothing, this same talk went on in the eve forums back in 2002/2003 before they launched. everyone worried that no one was going to leave high sec, that really never panned out, high sec is very populated but so is low and 0.0 space too.

[fflhktsn]

You're blind.

There is FFA pvp.

You will find people to kill, protect, and befriend.

Wars are coming.

You have to WAIT.

Man these people are so thick.

There are hardly any combat characters as is, and even less evil aligned tribes and players. There will be no one to war against if the game rules favor those who play nice and stay within their safe zones.

Once the few evil aligned tribes get zerged by the masses of good aligned tribes, they eventually will give up and move on, leaving no one to war against. Doesnt sound very fun

[MrKrueak]

it is safe because you have combat ships to escort you, we need to create the need for combat ships in this game, so that we can escort you.

Also eve safezones were static, this game offers mobil safezones. very diffrent

i think you are worrying over nothing, this same talk went on in the eve forums back in 2002/2003 before they launched. everyone worried that no one was going to leave high sec, that really never panned out, high sec is very populated but so is low and 0.0 space too.

[dxwarlock]

fflh, if you going to keep tossing that "mobile safezone" buzzword around, at least acknowledge and respond to the counter argument to it I keep stating..or stop claiming its as easy and sensible to do as you claim.

you keep making out like the crafters can just up and move, with no worries in the world..or things to consider..like we can drag it around like an umbrella as we move around the world..

[orious13]

it is safe because you have combat ships to escort you, we need to create the need for combat ships in this game, so that we can escort you.

Also eve safezones were static, this game offers mobil safezones. very diffrent

Mobile safezones are fine, but are not viable to people who are not solo players. A crafter will never move unless resources are depleted. A pvp player can move when he wants.

You can't have combat patrols if you don't have a basic economy or basic combat. Removing protection will ruin the build up of the game because there is no basic economy nor is there any basic (working) combat. WAIT until things get going before trying to figure out what may or may not happen.

[fflhktsn]

i think you are worrying over nothing, this same talk went on in the eve forums back in 2002/2003 before they launched. everyone worried that no one was going to leave high sec, that really never panned out, high sec is very populated but so is low and 0.0 space too.

again, we need to stop using other and very diffrent games as a backdrop to xsyon. this isnt eve, this isnt darkfall, this is xsyon. what worked for a space based, time progression, sci fi sandbox with 100k+ players on one server isnt going to work for this game. stop trying to turn this game into eve

and no im not trying to turn the game into darkfall, im not asking them to take out all content other than combat, im just asking for them to condiser a balance, as there currently is no balance.

[bruisie159]

I think that no XP should be gained while inside a safezone. Perhaps the further away from your totem the more xp gained. This way people wont have a reason to set their totem on top of a junk pile, or craft inside the safe confines of it. It would require you to have a combat character friend for protection, it would create a need for the combat characters and the game could be somewhat balanced in this aspect.

so would you enjoy standing next to a crafter to protect him as he walks out into the middle of the woods to craft his leather armour? Man this thread gets more and more ridiculous.

[MrKrueak]

Refering to the quote as being from Xsyon was the mistake part. I looked for the Xsyon post and couldn't find it. Will you please quote it/link it?

it's in the update section


Hello everyone!

I don't have time to read through all the recent discussions, but I want to clarify things as I see a lot of incorrect speculation.

The pending launch is for the Prelude, which is intended to last at least 6-9 months as originally planned. The Prelude is meant to be as described in the Features section. During the Prelude the game will evolve based on the community. The vision is and always has been to do this.

As those of you that have been around for a while already know, I've been paying attention to feedback and features have already changed based on what the community asks for. The tribe and rank system has changed from it's initial implementation. Combat was completely revised, though I admit it needs work and that's why we're bringing on another specialist this coming month.

The main discussion seems to be regarding safe zones. Some players are imagining 'safe switches' that can be turned on and off. That's not part of any plan. I am considering allowing tribes that want to war sooner than others to remove their safe zone if they so desire. A separate zone (as the mist clears) or server with no safe zones at all is also under consideration depending on the world's population. My goal is not to impose new limits as solutions but to give more choices.

I hope this clears things up. The game plan is to continually evolve and improve the game to listen to feedback and accomodate many types of players, and we're sticking to that.

[fflhktsn]

so would you enjoy standing next to a crafter as he walks out into the middle of the woods to craft his leather armour? Man this thread gets more and more ridiculous.

i offerd a suggestion, you offerd nothing but insults, and here we are....

is that the best solution...i dont think so. however i think the best solution would be the removal of safezones so that all tribes would need a few combat defender, and drop any ideas of a death penalty for some but not for all. balance...

[dxwarlock]

Mobile safezones are fine, but are not viable to people who are not solo players. A crafter will never move unless resources are depleted. A pvp player can move when he wants.

exactly what I keep saying..NO crafting tribe is going to spend months making a village to go "crap out of trash, lets just ditch all we made here to move and start over near that pile"

I am a crafter, Im giving you input on how a crafter sees that situation you keep claiming..
if you cant take input from a person thats the exact type you claim will do such actions on the subject at hand..I have nothing more to say.

I mean who else to point out a invalid argument on a subject, than a person the subject is about?

[ifireallymust]

i think you are worrying over nothing, this same talk went on in the eve forums back in 2002/2003 before they launched. everyone worried that no one was going to leave high sec, that really never panned out, high sec is very populated but so is low and 0.0 space too.

You would think otherwise from the rain of forum tears that fall every day over the the very existence of high sec and the empty loneliness of low sec.

[orious13]

There are hardly any combat characters as is, and even less evil aligned tribes and players. There will be no one to war against if the game rules favor those who play nice and stay within their safe zones.

Once the few evil aligned tribes get zerged by the masses of good aligned tribes, they eventually will give up and move on, leaving no one to war against. Doesnt sound very fun


There is either a post in the FAQ section or it was an interview, but what xsyon said is this: There should be less evil players and many more good/neutral. Good and neutrals can war against each other, but it will be more "Friendly". Evil is already supposed to be in the minority. There will still be wars, they just might be for fun.

BUT... this is all after prelude. You might just have to wait 6 months.

[fflhktsn]

You would think otherwise from the rain of forum tears that fall every day over the the very existence of high sec and the empty loneliness of low sec.

QFT

i dont want that to happen to this game, static safezones are bad enough....but mobil safezones....much worse.

[dxwarlock]

You would think otherwise from the rain of forum tears that fall every day over the the very existence of high sec and the empty loneliness of low sec.

and its stil growing, despite the existence of said safezones..they know regardless of what people say they want..they know what makes better business sense.
Im sure many many players in eve would want the ability to punch others in the face over the internet, and if it was possible would cry that it needs to be added..doesnt mean it would help the game gain more subscribers..what a group of players want, and what makes a game survive as a successful game are usually 2 different things.

[MrKrueak]

again, we need to stop using other and very diffrent games as a backdrop to xsyon. this isnt eve, this isnt darkfall, this is xsyon. what worked for a space based, time progression, sci fi sandbox with 100k+ players on one server isnt going to work for this game. stop trying to turn this game into eve

and no im not trying to turn the game into darkfall, im not asking them to take out all content other than combat, im just asking for them to condiser a balance, as there currently is no balance.

it is balanced IMO, there should be more risk for you pker's than a crafter. There will be plenty of people looking for a fight so why pick on the ones that will never be able to fight back? no animals to skill up on is no excuse because that will change, besides like i said there will be plenty of pvp focused tribes for you to go fight against. instead of trying to change their vision now when no one knows how the world is going to pan out, why not take the logical course of action and wait to see once we are live? you cannot use your game experience right now because most of us are not even logging in due to knowing wipes are coming

[fflhktsn]

There is either a post in the FAQ section or it was an interview, but what xsyon said is this: There should be less evil players and many more good/neutral. Good and neutrals can war against each other, but it will be more "Friendly". Evil is already supposed to be in the minority. There will still be wars, they just might be for fun.

BUT... this is all after prelude. You might just have to wait 6 months.

hey man, if your ok with tribal wars being as rare as old saw blades before the bug fix then so be it. have fun with that

[FabricSoftener]

exactly what I keep saying..NO crafting tribe is going to spend months making a village to go "crap out of trash, lets just ditch all we made here to move and start over near that pile"

I am a crafter, Im giving you input on how a crafter sees that situation you keep claiming..
if you cant take input from a person thats the exact type you claim will do such actions on the subject at hand..I have nothing more to say.

I mean who else to point out a invalid argument on a subject, than a person the subject is about?

pvp players are more mobile IF they decide to leave all their pvp loot behind, otherwise they will have to spend the day moving baskets just like everyone else. The only exception is architecture

[Dontaze_Mebro]

and its stil growing, despite the existence of said safezones..they know regardless of what people say they want..they know what makes better business sense.
Im sure many many players in eve would want the ability to punch others in the face over the internet, and if it was possible would cry that it needs to be added..doesnt mean it would help the game gain more subscribers..what a group of players want, and what makes a game survive as a successful game are usually 2 different things.

I'd sub just for that reason.

[dxwarlock]

QFT

....but mobil safezones....much worse.
are you just ignoring finding a response to my retort of your "super mobile safe zones" now?

[dxwarlock]

I'd sub just for that reason.

and I know 10 that would leave...10 to 1 ratio of leaving to joining..smart business sense!

[fflhktsn]

it is balanced IMO, there should be more risk for you pker's than a crafter. There will be plenty of people looking for a fight so why pick on the ones that will never be able to fight back? no animals to skill up on is no excuse because that will change, besides like i said there will be plenty of pvp focused tribes for you to go fight against. instead of trying to change their vision now when no one knows how the world is going to pan out, why not take the logical course of action and wait to see once we are live? you cannot use your game experience right now because most of us are not even logging in due to knowing wipes are coming

there already is more risk for a combat character, far too much risk when compared to the unlimited saftey of a crafter. combat characters will always be in more risk, however when you make crafting that much safer, it leads to a game of nothing but crafters, which is what we have now. not going to be very fun come tribal warfare when theres nobody to war against is it?

[bruisie159]

ok bye for now

[FabricSoftener]

there already is more risk for a combat character, far too much risk when compared to the unlimited saftey of a crafter. combat characters will always be in more risk, however when you make crafting that much safer, it leads to a game of nothing but crafters, which is what we have now. not going to be very fun come tribal warfare when theres nobody to war against is it?

as I mentioned earlier crafting in this game is not anymore safe then in darkfall. The system for crafting safety is almost exactly the same. The only difference in Darkfall is that clans can declare war on your clan and thus you cant craft 100% safely even in NPC cities.

I doubt this game will ever be more risky for crafters than darkfall is.

[MrKrueak]

You would think otherwise from the rain of forum tears that fall every day over the the very existence of high sec and the empty loneliness of low sec.

that is because those people hung around the wrong sectors and or just wanted more targets popping in front of them instead of actually hunting out players and scanning systems. I was a low sec pirate and had many engagements but it took a bit of effort on my part of searching for said targets. i don't remember how many kills i had but was enough for me to have fun, 10k to 20k of kills or more if i had to guess.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

and I know 10 that would leave...10 to 1 ratio of leaving to joining..smart business sense!
I know 15 that would sub with me. Look we can both make up numbers to make ourselves sound right.

[FabricSoftener]

I know 15 that would sub with me. Look we can both make up numbers to make ourselves sound right.

holy shit! 15? wow

[ifireallymust]

there already is more risk for a combat character, far too much risk when compared to the unlimited saftey of a crafter. combat characters will always be in more risk, however when you make crafting that much safer, it leads to a game of nothing but crafters, which is what we have now. not going to be very fun come tribal warfare when theres nobody to war against is it?

Calm down, it's not going to be a game of just crafters. All but the most dedicated (some might even say OCD) crafters will go looking for a fight eventually. The difference is, instead of being forced to fight before they're ready, they'll be eager to fight and happy about it, and hence, still subbing. Plus, some changes could come that would make crafters more viable in pvp before then, and those changes are needed, since we can only have one character per account and since a crafter character is a pretty sad sight in a fist fight, or so you pvpers keep saying.

[MrKrueak]

there already is more risk for a combat character, far too much risk when compared to the unlimited saftey of a crafter. combat characters will always be in more risk, however when you make crafting that much safer, it leads to a game of nothing but crafters, which is what we have now. not going to be very fun come tribal warfare when theres nobody to war against is it?

your unlimited safety is your imagination as others have pointed out, if you fail to realize you are imagining an issue that will not happen than no use trying to tell you different as then i'm pretty sure we are just feeding the troll

[Dontaze_Mebro]

When the safe zones disappear I am gonna laugh at all the rage quit posts.

[dxwarlock]

I know 15 that would sub with me. Look we can both make up numbers to make ourselves sound right.

and we both can be wrong..we can only trust in the numbers and actions of CCP, obviously they see an advantage business wise for leaving them in.
if you don't want to take the companies logic on why they do what they do, and wish to argue 3rd party outside observer on what they should do..be my guest :)

[fflhktsn]

as I mentioned earlier crafting in this game is not anymore safe then in darkfall. The system for crafting safety is almost exactly the same. The only difference in Darkfall is that clans can declare war on your clan and thus you cant craft 100% safely even in NPC cities.

I doubt this game will ever be more risky for crafters than darkfall is.

its much more safe, you have hardly any evil combat characters running around, as DF had nothing but that, you can easily harvest inside a safezone with no way to circumvent the defenses as in DF and all the best resources (junk piles) can be placed within a mobil safezone. its much safer

[orious13]

hey man, if your ok with tribal wars being as rare as old saw blades before the bug fix then so be it. have fun with that

Well...in a month I wonder what I'll be doing... But as long as the game gets a foundation for the future, I'm all for it. I like war systems more than pretty much any other mechanic. Yet, I feel that the current decisions are the correct ones and I want to be here to put my hand in the community discussions on how the war system could pan out in the future. This is not my game. This is the game of the community that has been testing with Jordi and his vision. And frankly the genre might even need this.

[FabricSoftener]

its much more safe, you have hardly any evil combat characters running around, as DF had nothing but that, you can easily harvest inside a safezone with no way to circumvent the defenses as in DF and all the best resources (junk piles) can be placed within a mobil safezone. its much safer

well that is a point. Its safer for harvesters but not exactly crafting. I was thinking crafting only

[jokhul]

There's a very good reason why 75% of the EVE playerbase can be found in the so-called "safe-zone" at any given time of day...

CCP knows what makes their game tick, that's why they've never removed the "safe-zone". :D

[fflhktsn]

Well...in a month I wonder what I'll be doing... But as long as the game gets a foundation for the future, I'm all for it. I like war systems more than pretty much any other mechanic. Yet, I feel that the current decisions are the correct ones and I want to be here to put my hand in the community discussions on how the war system could pan out in the future. This is not my game. This is the game of the community that has been testing with Jordi and his vision. And frankly the genre might even need this.

i agree with this, i just want to lay a foundation for future balance. nerfing combat characters, or the evil faction at every oppertunity is only going to make matters much less enjoyable down the road.

i want there to be plenty of evil faction tribes in which to war against, not just a small handfull all in alliance with eachother and with each tribe camp placed close by to their allied buddes. That wont be any fun.

I also dont want a situation where the game is 99% crafters down the road, the need to make being combat more viable than just farming players becoming evil and losing stats on death.

the future needs a foundation for balance if we are going to actually enjoy it all down the road.

i see them getting a bit carried away by requests from fearful pve'ers who want no part in what this game will be about down the road.

[fflhktsn]

well that is a point. Its safer for harvesters but not exactly crafting. I was thinking crafting only

it doesnt get any more risk free than crafting currently, park your ass at your totem and get to work, hell in a tribe you dont even need to leave the safezone, you can progress simply by avoiding all risk. this is bad.

[yoori]

there already is more risk for a combat character, far too much risk when compared to the unlimited saftey of a crafter. combat characters will always be in more risk, however when you make crafting that much safer, it leads to a game of nothing but crafters, which is what we have now. not going to be very fun come tribal warfare when theres nobody to war against is it?

Plaese read some more about the game, your points doesn't make much sense. There will be war with PvP players or without them, crafters need resources to craft and everyone needs crafted items just to survie. Once scrap piles are gone there will be war, probably over mines. No one is trying to force no PvP rule on this game, we just trying to tell you that PvP will not look like you see it.
Serious wars will start when scrap piles are gone and WAR system is implemented. Just wait till it happens or come back then.

[MrKrueak]

There's a very good reason why 75% of the EVE playerbase can be found in the so-called "safe-zone" at any given time of day...

CCP knows what makes their game tick, that's why they've never removed the "safe-zone". :D

and they have become very successfull by catering to both the pvp and pve crowds, giving the players the freedom to choose. You do forget that you can still pvp in high sec, there is wardecs that happen all the time and alot of pkers wardec just to go after what some of you all call carebears.

[yoori]

double post :/

[MrKrueak]

There's a very good reason why 75% of the EVE playerbase can be found in the so-called "safe-zone" at any given time of day...

CCP knows what makes their game tick, that's why they've never removed the "safe-zone". :D

and they have become very successfull by catering to both the pvp and pve crowds, giving the players the freedom to choose. You do forget that you can still pvp in high sec, there is wardecs that happen all the time and alot of pkers wardec just to go after what some of you all call carebears.

[FabricSoftener]

i agree with this, i just want to lay a foundation for future balance. nerfing combat characters, or the evil faction at every oppertunity is only going to make matters much less enjoyable down the road.

i want there to be plenty of evil faction tribes in which to war against, not just a small handfull all in alliance with eachother and with each tribe camp placed close by to their allied buddes. That wont be any fun.

I also dont want a situation where the game is 99% crafters down the road, the need to make being combat more viable than just farming players becoming evil and losing stats on death.

the future needs a foundation for balance if we are going to actually enjoy it all down the road.

i see them getting a bit carried away by requests from fearful pve'ers who want no part in what this game will be about down the road.

how everything will eventually pan out nobody really knows 100% for sure, not even the developer. That said, what you can count on is that this game will be crafting/building primarly with pvp as a secondary focus. the developer has said that more than once and reading the feature list on the game as well as taking a close look at what he has decided to code first should give everyone a general idea of what to expect.

This game will be pvp light, exactly how he plans to do it is less important. what is important is for players to understand the objective.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

how everything will eventually pan out nobody really knows 100% for sure, not even the developer. That said, what you can count on is that this game will be crafting/building primarly with pvp as a secondary focus. the developer has said that more than once and reading the feature list on the game as well as taking a close look at what he has decided to code first should give everyone a general idea of what to expect.
This game will be pvp light.
Without an active pvp crowd this game WILL die.

[fflhktsn]

Plaese read some more about the game, your points doesn't make much sense. There will be war with PvP players or without them, crafters need resources to craft and everyone needs crafted items just to survie. Once scrap piles are gone there will be war, probably over mines. No one is trying to force no PvP rule on this game, we just trying to tell you that PvP will not look like you see it.
Serious wars will start when scrap piles are gone and WAR system is implemented. Just wait till it happens or come back then.

a combat character doesnt have to be a pvp only character, well currently it does as theres nothing else to progress on. Im not trying to force crafter into pvp, just force tribes to actually need a decent combat character defense squad to protect the pve players. pvpers get a goal and a need, and crafter get the pve in saftey they want, but now also have a very significant need, a need to make sure their defenders are well equipped.

[dxwarlock]

just look at it this way, within reason, the game will become what the playerbase as a whole desires..jook is rather open to adaptation.

if in 9 months its pure FFA PvP with crafting a side only to be for combat related items, so be it..its what the whole as a mass wants.
if its a crafting carebear land with 'duels' and "both side agree to" tribe wars, so be it is what the playerbase as a whole wants.

so let the masses decide as a whole and it evolve into whatever it becomes..and not so much a "well I dont want this, regardless of what others want" type of viewpoint.

In the end, the MMO playerbase looking for what it wants as a whole will be what it will become.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

how everything will eventually pan out nobody really knows 100% for sure, not even the developer. That said, what you can count on is that this game will be crafting/building primarly with pvp as a secondary focus. the developer has said that more than once and reading the feature list on the game as well as taking a close look at what he has decided to code first should give everyone a general idea of what to expect.
This game will be pvp light.
Without an active pvp crowd this game WILL die.

[FabricSoftener]

Without an active pvp crowd this game WILL die.

there goes that 'if you dont do what I want I am going to leave' bullshit again.

There are plenty of games with no pvp or pvp light that are pulling in plenty of money I am hardly worried about that.

[dxwarlock]

Without an active pvp crowd this game WILL die.

way to be biased and narrowviewed...by that factor, without an active PvE and crafting crowd it will die to a darkfall,MO,earhtrise, etc death also.
dont state one side of the fact without the other...

[fflhktsn]

Without an active pvp crowd this game WILL die.

if they went full out sandbox pvp, this game woul be flooded with people looking for the sandbox pvp ruleset in a game with more to do than just combat, it will be in perfect harmony as the crafters will have a much more significant need, making sure their tribes defenders are the best equipped, and the pvp crowd will have plenty of other combat character to fight.

us pvpers are tired of there only being weak and defenseless crafter to gank...give us something to do...

[dxwarlock]

if they went full out sandbox pvp, this game woul be flooded with people looking for the sandbox pvp ruleset in a game with more to do than just combat, it will be in perfect harmony as the crafters will have a much more significant need, making sure their tribes defenders are the best equipped, and the pvp crowd will have plenty of other combat character to fight.

us pvpers are tired of there only being weak and defenseless crafter to gank...give us something to do...

and you as a PvPer seem to 'know' what type of demand and enviroment us crafters want..why do you keep putting words in our mouths..while at the same time ignoring the ones that do come out of ours?

[fflhktsn]

and you as a PvPer seem to 'know' what type of demand and enviroment us crafters want..why do you keep putting words in our mouths..while at the same time ignoring the ones that do come out of ours?

because i know you want a purpose in the game....

[fflhktsn]

way to be biased and narrowviewed...by that factor, without an active PvE and crafting crowd it will die to a darkfall,MO,earhtrise, etc death also.
dont state one side of the fact without the other...

DF didnt die, and AV has done quite well. MO never implimented crafting or combat, it was all just words on paper, Earthrise is about in the same spot we are...only their servers are allowing people to play currently.

[ifireallymust]

us pvpers are tired of there only being weak and defenseless crafter to gank...give us something to do...

I'm going to quote this back at you if crafters are ever viable in pvp due to taming, magic, or any other mechanic, so don't come crying about how it's not fair that a crafter can kill you, okay?

[dxwarlock]

did you read my reply before? I dont want to "make a name for myself" or care to.
if I supply one guy with what he needs to make a tent all day long..or 400 people on tools..long as Im doing "time killing" in real life in game and enjoying it..the demand to validate myself by my following of users that needed me isnt a goal of mine.

my purpose in the game? to waste the time between work and bed, nothing more...be it flattening land for my own area for 9 hours, or making baskets for weeks to hand out to others..my satisfaction is in my own enjoyment of that time spent playing.

[ifireallymust]

double post

[MrKrueak]

Without an active pvp crowd this game WILL die.

without an even more active pve crowd the game will die faster than not having the pvp crowds. believe it or not PVE is the driving force of most MMO's. I have asked this before and no one proves me wrong, name one mmo that is a sandbox, ffa full loot with no kind of protection that has not failed or in the process of failling?

[MrKrueak]

Without an active pvp crowd this game WILL die.

damn forums keep double posting

[Jadzia]

Wow 15 pages in like 2 hours...fflhktsn is the most successful troll I've ever seen ! You guys should stop feeding him, otherwise he will blow up lol

[dxwarlock]

without an even more active pve crowd the game will die faster than not having the pvp crowds. believe it or not PVE is the driving force of most MMO's. I have asked this before and no one proves me wrong, name one mmo that is a sandbox, ffa full loot with no kind of protection that has not failed or in the process of failling?

dont ask that, the darkfall,MO and earhtrise crowd that left there bored to come here will also ironically defend those 3 saying that are doing better than ever..

[Robbhood]

I would venture to say the majority of people who play and who will play, wanna carve out a tribe/camp/town, make stuff, explore and do a little fighting now and then. The "fight all the time" crowd is gonna be dissapointed. If the game didn't let folks do the crafting/creating thing without being harrased, that majority will seek greener pastures. Careful what ya wish for.

[fflhktsn]

I'm going to quote this back at you if crafters are ever viable in pvp due to taming, magic, or any other mechanic, so don't come crying about how it's not fair that a crafter can kill you, okay?

the point is, if you want your crafters to be targets, then so be it, i dont really care. its not fun currently picking on defenseless crafters, i wish i could go pick on your tibes defensive combat characters...only they dont exist.

the 5-10 combat character i have found offerd pretty entertaining fights to say the least, all while crafters hung around doing what they do in saftey. promote a reason to go combat, and killing the defensles no longer becomes what little combat characters are int he games favoriot and only past time.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

without an even more active pve crowd the game will die faster than not having the pvp crowds. believe it or not PVE is the driving force of most MMO's. I have asked this before and no one proves me wrong, name one mmo that is a sandbox, ffa full loot with no kind of protection that has not failed or in the process of failling?
Haven and Hearth/Salem

[Dontaze_Mebro]

without an even more active pve crowd the game will die faster than not having the pvp crowds. believe it or not PVE is the driving force of most MMO's. I have asked this before and no one proves me wrong, name one mmo that is a sandbox, ffa full loot with no kind of protection that has not failed or in the process of failling?
Haven and Hearth/Salem

[orious13]

i agree with this, i just want to lay a foundation for future balance. nerfing combat characters, or the evil faction at every oppertunity is only going to make matters much less enjoyable down the road.

i want there to be plenty of evil faction tribes in which to war against, not just a small handfull all in alliance with eachother and with each tribe camp placed close by to their allied buddes. That wont be any fun.

I also dont want a situation where the game is 99% crafters down the road, the need to make being combat more viable than just farming players becoming evil and losing stats on death.

the future needs a foundation for balance if we are going to actually enjoy it all down the road.

i see them getting a bit carried away by requests from fearful pve'ers who want no part in what this game will be about down the road.

Yes, the alignment on evil players must be so that they don't take over the world (because they will if given the ability and good/neutral might just quit from lack of fun), but also so that the evil players won't leave due to lack of fun themselves.

Currently the ONLY "in-immersive" "PvE" mechanic is the tribal safe zone. This is assuming death is fixed and that we have no clue how war and beyond the fog will play out. It might take a week or so, but people will need to leave their tribe zones for sanity reasons in addition to resource reasons. Simply removing these small zones will leave the game with 0 compromise. It would be as if DF launched with 0 guard towers, 0 alignment system, more broken combat.... that is a bad idea. There may be very few percent at the moment that have such a blood thirst, but it will still cause a severe problem. It might level out later, but the damage would have already been done.

The entire thing is a balancing act. Right now the non-pvp side is slightly closer to the ground, but that will change once combat is fixed and an alignment system is working.

[MrKrueak]

Wow 15 pages in like 2 hours...fflhktsn is the most successful troll I've ever seen ! You guys should stop feeding him, otherwise he will blow up lol

i figured he was hungry, i also like to slit my wrists occassionally too. it's all about the pain!

[ifireallymust]

Wow 15 pages in like 2 hours...fflhktsn is the most successful troll I've ever seen ! You guys should stop feeding him, otherwise he will blow up lol

Oh sir! It's only wafer-thin!

[bruisie159]

Haven and Hearth/Salem

ive never heard of salem, sorry must be just me. I wonder if anyone can name any mmo's that catered mainly to the like to a bit of everything crowd that did well?

[fflhktsn]

i figured he was hungry, i also like to slit my wrists occassionally too. it's all about the pain!

it was a legitimate topic for a game in development, and an actual concern. feel free to read the origional post, as i was aware of the controversy it would create.

i could have worded my OP much diffrently to create a better troll thread, but i didnt, this was a legitimate concern,

[Xidian]

Yeah wow, I leave for 30mins and it jumps 10 pages.

[Robbhood]

the point is, if you want your crafters to be targets, then so be it, i dont really care. its not fun currently picking on defenseless crafters, i wish i could go pick on your tibes defensive combat characters...only they dont exist.

the 5-10 combat character i have found offerd pretty entertaining fights to say the least, all while crafters hung around doing what they do in saftey. promote a reason to go combat, and killing the defensles no longer becomes what little combat characters are int he games favoriot and only past time.

Maybe you need a different game.

[dxwarlock]

Wow 15 pages in like 2 hours...fflhktsn is the most successful troll I've ever seen ! You guys should stop feeding him, otherwise he will blow up lol
hey, if he likes repeating the same mantra over and over regardless of numerous points that shows flaws in the logic anyway..so be it :)

his 15 pages boils down to
"mobile safezones FTL!" (pointed out the flaws in it, he refuses to refute )
"you need as big a risk/reward ratio for ALL playstyles" (also pointed them out for it also)
"PvP people need more PvE targets to fight, that fight back..but yet we need more pure PvP targets" (that in itself flaws itself)

[Belight]

Currently in game there is little to no risk in being a pve focused crafter.

A crafing character can set his totem near reources, harvest in saftey, and once they are all depleted, abandon the totem, log off during the cooldown and place a new one near new resources.

A combat character on the otherhand, needs to do all of his skill leveling far from any safe zone, animals are so hard to come by that other players are the better route. However if a death penalty that removes stats and skills is implimented, it puts all of the risk of the game on the combat characters.

But isn't that how it works in real life? Who risks more in life? A factory worker or a Marine?
Each has it's role. Each has it's rewards.

[FabricSoftener]

I really have to ask and I dont mean this to try and spark an arguement but everytime I read about Xsyon and pvp I wonder to myself why dont player just play Darkfall? Its actually a very good pvp game and its a bit of a myth that competition will happen more in this game because of resources. People really dont need a reason to seige although in Darkfall there are good reasons to want specific cities.

Anyway, not trying to make the question about Darkfall but still, why not play darkfall?

[fflhktsn]

hey, if he likes repeating the same mantra over and over regardless of numerous points that shows flaws in the logic anyway..so be it :)

his 15 pages boils down to
"mobile safezones FTL!" (pointed out the flaws in it, he refuses to refute )
"you need as big a risk/reward ratio for ALL playstyles" (also pointed them out for it also)
"PvP people need more PvE targets to fight, that fight back..but yet we need more pure PvP targets" (that in itself flaws itself)

when the developers create a system to penalize a chosen path in game, people run from it. Its more thanb obvious in game, and will have consequences down the road.

balance means your not penalized for whatever path you take

that is all

all ive seen are old quotes from old develoepr posts that have changed and could change. i want this to be a topic. if you create a game that penalizes you for being anything other than a safe zone crafter, thats all your going to get, and ive have yet to see otherwise in game...wont be fun if this foundation is layed as tribal wars will be a snooze fest.

were all here for the sandbox, dont hate me bro because of the path i chose, however a sandobx is suppose to be void of any rules and nudges from the game system, its suppose to be player based, not sure if you guys actually want a sandbox or dont know what it really means. im not talking about a semi-sandbox like DF, UO, or EvE either. you say you like sandbox but i dont think you really know what it is.

im talking about the first true sandbox. this game will go down in history if it achieves this.

[dxwarlock]

I really have to ask and I dont mean this to try and spark an arguement but everytime I read about Xsyon and pvp I wonder to myself why dont player just play Darkfall? Its actually a very good pvp game and its a bit of a myth that competition will happen more in this game because of resources. People really dont need a reason to seige although in Darkfall there are good reasons to want specific cities.

Anyway, not trying to make the question about Darkfall but still, why not play darkfall?
I wonder that too..they hate lots of crafters, safezones, people having different risk reward ratios..then leave a game that fits that to a tee.. to come here and demand it be more like the game they left that failed because of it.

[MrKrueak]

it was a legitimate topic for a game in development, and an actual concern. feel free to read the origional post, as i was aware of the controversy it would create.

i could have worded my OP much diffrently to create a better troll thread, but i didnt, this was a legitimate concern,

the problem is your vision of what this game should does not match Xyson's vision. you are trying to change a vision that brought alot of us here, maybe even yourself to this game to fit your vision. I believe in another thread you were talking about the need for us pve players to adapt, why can't the pvp players adapt to something a little different than they are used too in a ffa game? we pve players already know we will get ganked in 95% of the game, why can't that other 5 percent be a safety zone? your mobile saftey zone is just imagination to try and put a bit of relevance to your change of xyson's vision.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

But isn't that how it works in real life? Who risks more in life? A factory worker or a Marine?
Each has it's role. Each has it's rewards.
i think more factory workers die everyday than Marines

[FabricSoftener]

I wonder that too..they hate lots of crafters, safezones, people having different risk reward ratios..then leave a game that fits that to a tee.. to come here and demand it be more like the game they left that failed because of it.

my insticts tell me because they arent good at it. When it comes to pvp combat that game takes friggin skill

[esudar]

..obviously....
this game is more sandbox like and that is what darkfall players miss.
building your tribe where you want, terraforming and stuff like that.
sadly the combat system is a big fail still at the moment.

[dxwarlock]

no Ive replied to each one with an example..maybe you just missed them in the flury of posts.

the mobile safezones.. what tribes going to build a huge village..to ditch it and start from scratch because they are a little too far from junk in thier ring?
the risk vs reward...I gave 2 examples..an ingame, and in life example of how the logic is flawed.

and how do you get more PvE people that fight back? wouldnt that just mean they are PvP? as they are wanting to fight? then where does that leave the PvE people that dont? just a version of the ones that need to hurry up and get with the PvP?

[Dontaze_Mebro]

What's to keep a solo player from doing the mobile homestead thing? They strip mine out an area, and trade all the goods off to a friend or an alt in a large tribe. They then move on to deplete the next area's resources entirely.

[dxwarlock]

What's to keep a solo player from doing the mobile homestead thing? They strip mine out an area, and trade all the goods off to a friend or an alt in a large tribe. They then move on to deplete the next area's resources entirely.

that the biggest concern? a single player eating up a junkpile and moving around?
the only person safe on that area is that one guy..so it would only be him getting an advantage from safety on it.

so your more concerned that one guy using it for safety to kill the pile over a month solo..than the big tribe next door that has 10 harvesters chewing thru a pile in the open over 4 days, gathering in numbers for safety?

[fflhktsn]

no Ive replied to each one with an example..maybe you just missed them in the flury of posts.

the mobile safezones.. what tribes going to build a huge village..to ditch it and start from scratch because they are a little too far from junk in thier ring?
the risk vs reward...I gave 2 examples..an ingame, and in life example of how the logic is flawed.

and how do you get more PvE people that fight back? wouldnt that just mean they are PvP? as they are wanting to fight? then where does that leave the PvE people that dont? just a version of the ones that need to hurry up and get with the PvP?

they clearly stated they wanted to keep mobil safezones as an option. what dont you understand about that. if its an option it will be abused.

the only flawed logic is the logic you are using in thinking that such a system wont be abused. you know people already have multiple account, you know large tribes will have sub tribes in safezones that can be mobil to support them. you know small tribes with safezones will be able to deplete resources and there will be no recourse.

lets hear some more of this wonderful logic of yours please....i didnt reply because your just trolling, since your missing the obvious here

this might be your first mmorpg, but its not my first, i know all the tricks large guilds use to gain the upperhand, abusing safezones will be the first one they abuse. it will come at the expense of the small tribes that its suppose to protect, all while creating an imbalance of crafters to combat.

gonna suck when you find out that a large tribe has mobil safezoned a terraform wall around their main camp, causing a choke point in which youll have to pass though their small sub tribes safezone inorder to attack them.

[Yokilla]

it's in the update section

Thanks! That's the post I was looking for. It confirms what I said and confirms the Virtus post: safe zones will not be turned off. Areas/servers without safe zones may be created. But safe zones (as of now) will not get turned off.

[orious13]

What's to keep a solo player from doing the mobile homestead thing? They strip mine out an area, and trade all the goods off to a friend or an alt in a large tribe. They then move on to deplete the next area's resources entirely.

They can if they want. Alts only help the games revenue since you can't have but one char per account. The key word their is "trade". The player is indeed giving back to the players what he had. Also the player will need to spend a LOT of time in that area. It's not like he's changing paces every 5 hours. Maybe every week, but he can not trade everything. The more you move, the larger the chance that you will be confronted by an unfortunate turn of events that strips you of the tools you had on you. Regardless if you're moving or not, you can't steal all of the resources without tools or a bin. You can destroy junk piles and toss out all of the goods, but eventually that will just accumulate back into the pile.

[dxwarlock]

they clearly stated they wanted to keep mobil safezones as an option. what dont you understand about that. if its an option it will be abused.

it will be abused by PvP too..dont try to play it off as only the PvE will do it.
PvP has more advatages to doing so...a mobile safespot to stalk a given tribe from..and move as needed as he finds new targets.

why not lock totems in place for a week at a time then? instead of removing the safezone for now?
or is it really you more want no safezones, and using the mobile aspest as an unrelated argument to prove your reasoning.

[jokhul]

they clearly stated they wanted to keep mobil safezones as an option. what dont you understand about that. if its an option it will be abused.

If it is abused, there will most likely be a change to the system, like a limit to how often a totem can be moved...

[MrKrueak]

Thanks! That's the post I was looking for. It confirms what I said and confirms the Virtus post: safe zones will not be turned off. Areas/servers without safe zones may be created. But safe zones (as of now) will not get turned off.

you miss the part that said "AT FIRST THERE WILL BE SAFE ZONES, but he is considering allowing tribes to opt out earlier" the plan that has always been said was after prelude was over there wouldn't be safe zones. of course that plan can be changed but i have not heard the devs say differently yet. People are just misinterpreting what has been said recently just as you have.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

They can if they want. The key word their is "trade". The player is indeed giving back to the players what he had. Also the player will need to spend a LOT of time in that area. It's not like he's changing paces every 5 hours. Maybe every week, but he can not trade everything. The more you move, the larger the chance that you will be confronted by an unfortunate turn of events that strips you of the tools you had on you. Regardless if you're moving or not, you can't steal all of the resources without tools or a bin. You can destroy junk piles and toss out all of the goods, but eventually that will just accumulate back into the pile.

The key word is "trade without risk" Why should they be able to trade in complete safety when others can't.

[dxwarlock]

The key word is "trade without risk" Why should they be able to trade in complete safety when others can't.

whats stopping you from trading safely? you refuse to use the same mechanic as they are by trading in a tribal area?

[fflhktsn]

they clearly stated they wanted to keep mobil safezones as an option. what dont you understand about that. if its an option it will be abused.

the only flawed logic is the logic you are using in thinking that such a system wont be abused. you know people already have multiple account, you know large tribes will have sub tribes in safezones that can be mobil to support them. you know small tribes with safezones will be able to deplete resources and there will be no recourse.

lets hear some more of this wonderful logic of yours please....i didnt reply because your just trolling, since your missing the obvious here

this might be your first mmorpg, but its not my first, i know all the tricks large guilds use to gain the upperhand, abusing safezones will be the first one they abuse. it will come at the expense of the small tribes that its suppose to protect, all while creating an imbalance of crafters to combat.

gonna suck when you find out that a large tribe has mobil safezoned a terraform wall around their main camp, causing a choke point in which youll have to pass though their small sub tribes safezone inorder to attack them.

in case you missed it warlock, im waiting for your logic applied here

[yoori]

What's to keep a solo player from doing the mobile homestead thing? They strip mine out an area, and trade all the goods off to a friend or an alt in a large tribe. They then move on to deplete the next area's resources entirely.

Are you aware of comfort feature, are you aware that items has to be transported you can't (fast)trade between tribes and you can be looted while transporting.

Are you ALL aware that WAR system isn't in game yet and open PvP is supposed to be a minor feature. Go and read some of the old posts if you're bored and stop QQ'ing.

Jooky won't change his vision becouse of your whining.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

whats stopping you from trading safely? you refuse to use the same mechanic as they are by trading in a tribal area?
The fact that my tribal area doesn't move with my resource pile I'm selling. It just needs to be tweeked tomake sure that the system is FAIR to everyone. Jut because you do not enjoy PVP does not mean that you should have any advantage over someone who does or vice versa.

[fflhktsn]

Are you aware of comfort feature, are you aware that items has to be transported you can't (fast)trade between tribes and you can be looted while transporting.

Are you ALL aware that WAR system isn't in game yet and open PvP is supposed to be a minor feature. Go and read some of the old posts if you're bored and stop QQ'ing.

Jooky won't change his vision becouse of your whining.

im sure he will when he realizes that the pve crowd cannot support the game alone, and knows he can tap into a huge pvp corwd waiting for a game like this...

[Dirt]

I'm a crafter / builder guy. always have to leave my homestead, you pk'ers find and kill me every day, for nothing. Quit yer bitchen. Hit yourself.

[fflhktsn]

I'm a crafter / builder guy. always have to leave my homestead, you pk'ers find and kill me every day, for nothing. Quit yer bitchen. Hit yourself.

welcome to the thread.

i support your comments, and the reason you are the target is because the game system favors crafters and pve types, leading to a lack of combat character in which to enjoy fighting against. this is the reason for my OP, however the thread is now in the gutter as expected.

once they stop nerfing the combat side of the game, and making pvp not viable,we wont need to go after anyone we see... the only people we have to kill is you, for no reason. this needs to change, and making combat and pvp viable will increase the need to combat character to protect people like you, giving griefers free reign is what the problem is, we have nothing else to do or any other means to progress at the moment,.

read my OP this isnt a troll post or a QQ thread.

[orious13]

The key word is "trade without risk" Why should they be able to trade in complete safety when others can't.

There is always a risk while trading. Non-tribe members can always attack other non-tribe members in an area that is not their tribe. Regardless of safe zones in this case, the trader will probably be protected once they reach the tribe or if they have guards protecting them. A trader must walk through hostile territory. A trader bringing goods is the best and most important find for a ganker.

The only instance where there is very little risk is purely crafting within a safe zone. I say little risk because while you can't die and lose your gear, you still can lose your crafting resources while crafting. A trader can lose everything from resources needed to trade to the gear they carry for protection. A combat character loses their combat gear. There is never a "without risk" situation. There are just some situations that have different levels of risk.

[jokhul]

im sure he will when he realizes that the pve crowd cannot support the game alone, and knows he can tap into a huge pvp corwd waiting for a game like this...

The "pvp crowd" you are referring to will not play a game like this. But if Jooky TOTALLY CHANGES his game design, they might... that's a lot of ifs and maybe's...

[fflhktsn]

Currently in game there is little to no risk in being a pve focused crafter.

A crafing character can set his totem near reources, harvest in saftey, and once they are all depleted, abandon the totem, log off during the cooldown and place a new one near new resources.

A crafter doesnt need to leave the safezone to skill up and progress, in fact most stay at home near the saftey of their premission locked baskets to do so.

You cant even terraform without remaining inside your magical safe zone.

A combat character on the otherhand, needs to do all of his skill leveling far from any safe zone, animals are so hard to come by that other players are the better route. However if a death penalty that removes stats and skills is implimented, it puts all of the risk of the game on the combat characters.

Currently the largest tribe is full of crafters...how many crafters does one tribe need? Does a tribe of 10 or 20 need to have 15 crafters? Is this realistic in a dangerous and new world ravaged by an apocalypse? Civilizations of past relied on a few "crafters" in which to support the many "combat" people of their armies, defense of the tribe was the number one important factor of their survival, not who can weave the most baskets.

My hope is that this turns into a civilized and respectfull discussion about the purpose of a crafter heavy game, removing the no risk gameplay invloved with crafting, and why all of the risk must be plased on a player who chooses to defend said crafters, having to progress outside the safe zone and without any other means to progress other than hunting people.

since its now buried, this is what im talking about...balance

[dxwarlock]

I gave you my response, lock time to move totems and drop/join/drop a tribe to a week..your logic to remove safezones because of this has no bearing on the terraforming of the land around them by "sub-tribes" they could and will still do the tactics your complaining about, a lack of safezones would not stop that.

and not once have I insulted or assumed your level, or lack of MMO experience, gaming experience, or level of intellect as your now doing to me..and I refuse to stoop to that level to continue this.

Im off, im not even arguing anymore..now your resorting to tatics of discrediting and insulting by using lines such as "this might be your first mmorpg, but its not my first,". then continuing after trying to debase my experince by proudly stating your own.. unbased insults meant to infer that any reply I may make is based on a small or non-existent experience of MMO gametime and it's vastly inferior to yours, and all responses should be treated as such by all ...

So lets just agree to disagree, since this went from a debate, to what now seems an alpha male, peacock feather strutting contest that i want no part in.

so strut your feathers proudly my friend, your shit flinging has ran me out of the cage with you, its your own private shit covered cage now...enjoy it :)

[fflhktsn]

The "pvp crowd" you are referring to will not play a game like this. But if Jooky TOTALLY CHANGES his game design, they might... that's a lot of ifs and maybe's...

part of the reason games like DF were not a smashing success (although it was and currently is successful) is because these types of games offerd combat combat combat. THis game already has a foundation for pve, a lot of foundation. However its not in balance, and is clouded by talks of forcing the community into a good pve path.this does not bode well for a sandbox. I dont want this game to be DF 2.0, as they would have to remove a ton of content. Im not asking for a total game design change, just to stop prodding the community into taking a specific path, stop protecting people who dont want to participate in pvp and allow the community to decide what is acceptable and what isnt, like a true sandbox should be. Its all this talk about optional pvp and penalizing characters who choose one faction over another thats bothering a lot of us, and preventing us from pulling many more players into the game.

[MrKrueak]

might as well just stop posting here, there are some that will never understand until they have it their way, hope those minority will not be listened to but if i go by past experiences it will happen and the game will be hurt by it in the long run, again no one has properly answered the question what legitimate sandbox mmo with no protection what so ever has not failed or is failing?

beating a dead horse here, so thread is over for me.

[fflhktsn]

I gave you my response, lock time to move totems and drop/join/drop a tribe to a week..your logic to remove safezones because of this has no bearing on the terraforming of the land around them by "sub-tribes" they could and will still do the tactics your complaining about, a lack of safezones would not stop that.

and not once have I insulted or assumed your level, or lack of MMO experience, gaming experience, or level of intellect as your now doing to me..and I refuse to stoop to that level to continue this.

Im off, im not even arguing anymore..now your resorting to tatics of discrediting and insulting by using lines such as "this might be your first mmorpg, but its not my first,". then continuing after trying to debase my experince by proudly stating your own.. unbased insults meant to infer that any reply I may make is based on a small or non-existent experience of MMO gametime and it's vastly inferior to yours, and all responses should be treated as such by all ...

So lets just agree to disagree, since this went from a debate, to what now seems an alpha male, peacock feather strutting contest that i want no part in.

so strut your feathers proudly my friend, your shit flinging has ran me out of the cage with you, its your own private shit covered cage now...enjoy it :)

lock times for totems? log out, log back in,....i said this like 15 pages ago and you ignored it. of course we disagree, you want a real life/sim game and i want a sandbox.

although i guess this all is futile, as you cant pull anyone into a game that isnt playable, and when the full game is years away...

[MrKrueak]

you want a real life/sim game and i want a sandbox.

ok i lied, had to respond to this, what you or he want does not matter at all...... all that matters is what Xsyon wants. we pay to play his game not yours or anyone elses.

[dxwarlock]

allow the community to decide what is acceptable and what isnt, like a true sandbox should be.
well crawled back into the feces covered cage to respond to this...
wait a sandbox? where people can play how they see fit? isnt that the opposite of your declaration of "everyone should have the same risk/reward and negative that my playstyle does..because I disagree"
how can you both demand a sandbox where all playstyles and risk/vs reward is on a player by player basis based on the "sandbox" they want to play in, when you also want everyone to have the same gameplay?

[fflhktsn]

ok i lied, had to respond to this, what you or he want does not matter at all...... all that matters is what Xsyon wants. we pay to play his game not yours or anyone elses.

no my little friend, the customer is right...always...and there is a HUGE crowd waiting for such a game....huge


....FORUM FATALITY....

[FabricSoftener]

no my little friend, the customer is right...always...and there is a HUGE crowd waiting for such a game....huge


....FORUM FATALITY....

no there isnt.

they are busy playing those other games

[fflhktsn]

no there isnt.

they are busy playing those other games

yes but are bored with them, and they all are missing the pve that this game has...which is why its important to have a blance of the two...trust me people are watching this game and there is a huge crowd that wants a true sandbox with both pve like this game offers and the pvp with this game is close to offering. big numbers there

[dxwarlock]

no there isnt.

they are busy playing those other games

wait wait, no they arent, because what they wanted they got..then realized they didnt like what they got, and went to the next one..demanded what they wanted, realized it still sucked, went to the final one a few months ago..demanded changes, got them and went "damnit, we wanted change, got it..and STILL it doesnt work...onto the next game boys!"

[dxwarlock]

yes but are bored with them, and they all are missing the pve that this game has...which is why its important to have a blance of the two...trust me people are watching this game and there is a huge crowd that wants a true sandbox with both pve like this game offers and the pvp with this game is close to offering. big numbers there

but that "balance" of PvP and PvE is a holy grail, a imperfect perfection that can never happen.
its like saying there is a huge group waiting to see the perfect balance between Israel and Palestine..just someone needs to make it.

its 2 groups that dont mix, and never will..you can have the best aspects of the game for both..but its not the aspects or lack of in the game itself that runs one side off or the other..its the players of the otherside.

remove the player aspect of it, and you can have that balance...but then you have no one playing to disrupt it.
no one side is to blame more than the other...

but jsut as an example..look at the arguments this thread caused just TALKING about it being in game.
you suspect there is some magic mix that when it's actually ingame both side will go "this is great!"

if we cant agree on just ideas and theories of how it should work, what makes you think anyone can create one where we wouldnt think the same thing?

name one MMO where there isnt a PvP vs PvE raging debate that went from launch to current days..and a middleground was found, and the debate/elements added to try to please either side didnt run people off from the other...

[fflhktsn]

wait wait, no they arent, because what they wanted they got..then realized they didnt like what they got, and went to the next one..demanded what they wanted, realized it still sucked, went to the final one a few months ago..demanded changes, got them and went "damnit, we wanted change, got it..and STILL it doesnt work...onto the next game boys!"

i think the point has flown clear over your head there...

its not that the community decides the actual structure and mechanisms, its that the world is self regulated without rules, without saftey. Xsyon could (if it was launch ready and full) easily fufull this, since the sandbox has more sand than any others out there...much more...this is what people want. However its not a sandbox with death penalties for one faction and not the other, its not a sandbox if you can opt out of pvp. the players themselves are suppose to create their own safe zones, through the tools given to them in game, mainly alliances, protectors, defensive structures ect...not by pappa jookie and his magical code. Hes done great laying one of the biggest sandboxes and filling it with sand...now lets take the life guards out of the sandbox and let people play as they want.

this is why i said you dont understand what a true sandbox is. i still dont think youll get it because it doesnt fit your argument,.

[MrKrueak]

no my little friend, the customer is right...always...and there is a HUGE crowd waiting for such a game....huge


....FORUM FATALITY....

if there was a huge crowd why aren't they playing the other failed sandbox ffa mmos unless you mean huge as in a thousand or so.....and the community\customer is never right, that is the problem with most developers they ruin there own game by trying to change their original vision of what it's supposed to be. if you change your vision towards the end of the development when most qq'ers like you show up than you screw the customer that was there long before helping with their original vision.

most mistake that makes a mmo fail is right before launch or just after by implementing a feature that was not originally in their vision. Xyson has already said that the PVP aspect of this game was not going to be up to par with other features until after prelude, his vision is for the prelude to be all about building up the world and once tribal warfare opens up the pvp aspect will have been fleshed out including combat mechanics etc. this was not going to happen until the transition from prelude to whatever he calls the next phase.

[FabricSoftener]

wait wait, no they arent, because what they wanted they got..then realized they didnt like what they got, and went to the next one..demanded what they wanted, realized it still sucked, went to the final one a few months ago..demanded changes, got them and went "damnit, we wanted change, got it..and STILL it doesnt work...onto the next game boys!"

very true..

or. they are getting what they want but havent realized yet that they suck at it once they get it.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

but that "balance" of PvP and PvE is a holy grail, a imperfect perfection that can never happen.
its like saying there is a huge group waiting to see the perfect balance between Israel and Palestine..just someone needs to make it.

its 2 groups that dont mix, and never will..you can have the best aspects of the game for both..but its not the aspects or lack of in the game itself that runs one side off or the other..its the players of the otherside.

remove the player aspect of it, and you can have that balance...but then you have no one playing to disrupt it.
no one side is to blame more than the other...

but jsut as an example..look at the arguments this thread caused just TALKING about it being in game.
you suspect there is some magic mix that when it's actually ingame both side will go "this is great!"

if we cant agree on just ideas and theories of how it should work, what makes you think anyone can create one where we wouldnt think the same thing?

name one MMO where there isnt a PvP vs PvE raging debate that went from launch to current days..and a middleground was found, and the debate/elements added to try to please either side didnt run people off from the other...

They don't mix because of narrow minded people like yourself that believe that they could never mix.

[orious13]

The "true sandbox" is an unrealistic vision. It's as simple as that. I've wanted one for the longest time, but now it is the morality loss of players that prevents it. MMO developers understand this. You will have to compromise.

[dxwarlock]

i think the point has flown clear over your head there...

its not that the community decides the actual structure and mechanisms, its that the world is self regulated without rules, without saftey. Xsyon could (if it was launch ready and full) easily fufull this, since the sandbox has more sand than any others out there...much more...this is what people want. However its not a sandbox with death penalties for one faction and not the other, its not a sandbox if you can opt out of pvp. the players themselves are suppose to create their own safe zones, through the tools given to them in game, mainly alliances, protectors, defensive structures ect...not by pappa jookie and his magical code. Hes done great laying one of the biggest sandboxes and filling it with sand...now lets take the life guards out of the sandbox and let people play as they want.

this is why i said you dont understand what a true sandbox is. i still dont think youll get it because it doesnt fit your argument,.


so since my definition of how I want to play in a sandbox is different from yours, im not playing in the sandbox right?
Im making a castle on my side of the sandbox, your on the other side digging holes and playing with tonka trucks screaming "WTF you doing? its sand..people dig sand, move it around drive trucks thru it..you dont even know how to use this playground box of sand right...geez"

we are PvP vs PvE.
I want to stock the store with coke, you with pepsi..we will never agree. and both think the other is doing it wrong :)

why I was leaving...since getting you to see my point of
"well if its a sandbox, what if I dont want to have to hide so I dont die while taking a piss..give me my safe area"
and I cant see yours of "its a sandbox, I should be abel to kill you anywhere anyhow"

then is it truly a sandbox either way?
is its a sandbox if a PvE is forced into someone elses playstyle because they want to PvP inside thier totem? on the other hand, is it a sandbox if the PvPer cant attack anyone anywhere?

either side of out argument is biased towards what we want, BOTH pushing it away from sandbox gameplay..

[fflhktsn]

if there was a huge crowd why aren't they playing the other failed sandbox ffa mmos unless you mean huge as in a thousand or so.....and the community\customer is never right, that is the problem with most developers they ruin there own game by trying to change their original vision of what it's supposed to be. if you change your vision towards the end of the development when most qq'ers like you show up than you screw the customer that was there long before helping with their original vision.

most mistake that makes a mmo fail is right before launch or just after by implementing a feature that was not originally in their vision. Xyson has already said that the PVP aspect of this game was not going to be up to par with other features until after prelude, his vision is for the prelude to be all about building up the world and once tribal warfare opens up the pvp aspect will have been fleshed out including combat mechanics etc. this was not going to happen until the transition from prelude to whatever he calls the next phase.

they are not true sandboxes, they failed to deliver the amount of sand the community was looking for. most offers just the pvp and combat, with no features that matterd. thats why this game is diffrent from them all.

theres no comparison to this game at the moment, and that is why it is special...should they be able to deliver all stated features and overcome their technical difficulties that is...thechnical difficulties will chase away even the most hardcore sandbox fans unfortunatly.

also, this game would kill for an audience the size of darkfalls, so dont knock what they have done, they just failed to cater to the pve crowd by not making any pve in the game sanbox or entertaining, as this game already has done.

[dxwarlock]

They don't mix because of narrow minded people like yourself that believe that they could never mix.
yea ahs nothing to do with the millions and millions of MMO players that can testify to the fact that many many others like them left games because of PvE vs PvP arguements or disagree ments..
its all MY fault that these people can never agree...I admit the blame is mine..I am solely the reason that a good PvE/PvP mmo has never made it..

[NexAnima]

no my little friend, the customer is right...always...and there is a HUGE crowd waiting for such a game....huge


....FORUM FATALITY....

No they are not always right, look at UO from what it was to what EA gave the wanting little gimmes. A person could have a good idea, but people are always stupid. For once devs need to stay true to their vision instead of trying to make one product fit the image of the entitlements

[MrKrueak]

so since my definition of how I want to play in a sandbox is different from yours, im not playing in the sandbox right?
Im making a castle on my side of the sandbox, your on the other side digging holes and playing with tonka trucks screaming "WTF you doing? its sand..people dig sand, move it around drive trucks thru it..you dont even know how to use this playground box of sand right...geez"

we are PvP vs PvE.
I want to stock the store with coke, you with pepsi..we will never agree. and both think the other is doing it wrong :)

why I was leaving...since getting you to see my point of
"well if its a sandbox, what if I dont want to have to hide so I dont die while taking a piss..give me my safe area"
and I cant see yours of "its a sandbox, I should be abel to kill you anywhere anyhow"

then is it truly a sandbox either way?
is its a sandbox if a PvE is forced into someone elses playstyle because they want to PvP inside thier totem? on the other hand, is it a sandbox if the PvPer cant attack anyone anywhere?

either side of out argument is biased towards what we want, BOTH pushing it away from sandbox gameplay..

perfect post. i've tried getting my point accross about a sandbox being subjective but not as well as you just did

[Dontaze_Mebro]

so since my definition of how I want to play in a sandbox is different from yours, im not playing in the sandbox right?
Im making a castle on my side of the sandbox, your on the other side digging holes and playing with tonka trucks screaming "WTF you doing? its sand..people dig sand, move it around drive trucks thru it..you dont even know how to use this playground box of sand right...geez"

we are PvP vs PvE.
I want to stock the store with coke, you with pepsi..we will never agree. and both think the other is doing it wrong :)

why I was leaving...since getting you to see my point of
"well if its a sandbox, what if I dont want to have to hide so I dont die while taking a piss..give me my safe area"
and I cant see yours of "its a sandbox, I should be abel to kill you anywhere anyhow"

then is it truly a sandbox either way?
is its a sandbox if a PvE is forced into someone elses playstyle because they want to PvP inside thier totem? on the other hand, is it a sandbox if the PvPer cant attack anyone anywhere?

either side of out argument is biased towards what we want, BOTH pushing it away from sandbox gameplay..

What makes it a sandbox is also my ability to come kick your castle over if I don't like it, and bloody your lip if you got something to say about it. What kind of pansy sandboxes did you grow up in?

[dxwarlock]

What makes it a sandbox is also my ability to come kick your castle over if I don't like it, and bloody your lip if you got something to say about it. What kind of pansy sandboxes did you grow up in?

sorry dont remember my kindergarden sandbox having a full contact, testosterone driven aspect to it.

[fflhktsn]

No they are not always right, look at UO from what it was to what EA gave the wanting little gimmes. A person could have a good idea, but people are always stupid. For once devs need to stay true to their vision instead of trying to make one product fit the image of the entitlements

again you missed the point as to fit your argument

UO moved away from a sandbox, it got old, its audience changed and they were never a full frontal sandbox to begin with. they were close however.

if this game stuck to a true sandbox mentality, create the world and drop the people in it, a lot of people would flock to it, im not talking wow sized community, but several times its current following to say the least.

that is if this game doesnt turn into another MO, where all the features never make it and it gets stuck in alhpa stage for life.

[dxwarlock]

@fflhktsn

how about this, we all just play our way..see where the devs take it, and ride it and see where the destination ends up?

forum arguments aside, i have no ill will against you ingame, I see you need a basket or tool and I got and extra its yours.
inversely, you see me carrying a log, or fancy hat you particularly like outside my area and I have no mats to make one for you, come kill me and its yours :)

[fflhktsn]

so since my definition of how I want to play in a sandbox is different from yours, im not playing in the sandbox right?
Im making a castle on my side of the sandbox, your on the other side digging holes and playing with tonka trucks screaming "WTF you doing? its sand..people dig sand, move it around drive trucks thru it..you dont even know how to use this playground box of sand right...geez"

we are PvP vs PvE.
I want to stock the store with coke, you with pepsi..we will never agree. and both think the other is doing it wrong :)

why I was leaving...since getting you to see my point of
"well if its a sandbox, what if I dont want to have to hide so I dont die while taking a piss..give me my safe area"
and I cant see yours of "its a sandbox, I should be abel to kill you anywhere anyhow"

then is it truly a sandbox either way?
is its a sandbox if a PvE is forced into someone elses playstyle because they want to PvP inside thier totem? on the other hand, is it a sandbox if the PvPer cant attack anyone anywhere?

either side of out argument is biased towards what we want, BOTH pushing it away from sandbox gameplay..

the definition of a sandbox, at least a true sandbox is pretty standard, its because of how you want to play, which involves nullification of other peoples choices, that makes it incompatable with the sandbox idea.

you dont want a game where the community makes its own safe zones given the tools in game, you want that safe zone to be given to you by the developer.

you dont want the community to ban together to create safe havens for crafters, you want the game to punish pvpers

in a sadbox its not up to the game to decide its up the the people playing, to decide and the enact given the tools avaliable.

im not asking for them to inhibit your pve, just that your pve wishes dont inhibit my pvp...see how that works.

sandboxes provide you with the tools to do it all yourself, and not rely on a developer to code it in for you.

that is why you dont understand what a sandbox is, you think its the player deciding on the tools and mechanics, when they are really just left alone with said tools and mechanics and are able to do what they want with them, without game system interference.

[Yokilla]

you miss the part that said "AT FIRST THERE WILL BE SAFE ZONES, but he is considering allowing tribes to opt out earlier" the plan that has always been said was after prelude was over there wouldn't be safe zones. of course that plan can be changed but i have not heard the devs say differently yet. People are just misinterpreting what has been said recently just as you have.

The statements made by Notorious Game are unambigous and clear. Interpretaion is not necessary. At first safe zones everywhere. The begining area we have now out to the mist. Later that area may be allowed to opt out. Xsyon says he is still considering this option. Later zones will be added and the mist will get pushed back from the begining area. Some or all of the newly added zone(s) may entirely be free of safe zones--maybe not--he is going to watch the server population to determine our course. Later servers will not all have safe zones. I suspect--given enough clients--there will be servers like ours with a begining safe zone optional area. But maybe this will be the only server with safe zone guarenteed areas. That part is unlcear.
I haven't, by any means, read much of the threads in this forum. No where that I've read has said a word about revoking a tribe's option to remain safe in the original area the game launches with.

[fflhktsn]

@fflhktsn

how about this, we all just play our way..see where the devs take it, and ride it and see where the destination ends up?

forum arguments aside, i have no ill will against you ingame, I see you need a basket or tool and I got and extra its yours.
inversely, you see me carrying a log, or fancy hat you particularly like outside my area and I have no mats to make one for you, come kill me and its yours :)

cool i look forward to hunting you down like the carebear you are and fully looting you...possibly dropping dirt on your dead body as to inhibit you further...CHEERS!

[dxwarlock]

you dont want a game where the community makes its own safe zones given the tools in game, you want that safe zone to be given to you by the developer.

that is why you dont understand what a sandbox is, you think its the player deciding on the tools and mechanics, when they are really just left alone with said tools and mechanics and are able to do what they want with them, without game system interference.

no I nevre said that, All im asking for is whats there..for somewhat safe timeperiod so I can build my own safe haven..because even you had to admit if it was just dropped in, no way to get started safely..most would never be able to, as they would have people kicking down thier wall they started and stabbing them everytime they tried to move to a new spot and hide.

Im all for "drop us in the box, give us tools, and let us create what we need to survive" just saying we need some bit of safetynet to get started against those that will take the startup time..just running around stopping others from starting.

only element I was arguing with you about was that risk/vs needs to be level and static across the board for all actions, regardless of outcome. i think each needs its own different ratio..so a player can find the one hes comfortable with, but still feels that the reward aspect is worth it.

[fflhktsn]

no I nevre said that, All im asking for is whats there..for somewhat safe timeperiod so I can build my own safe haven..because even you had to admit if it was just dropped in, no way to get started safely..most would never be able to, as they would have people kicking down thier wall they started and stabbing them everytime they tried to move to a new spot and hide.

Im all for "drop us in the box, give us tools, and let us create what we need to survive" just saying we need some bit of safetynet to get started against those that will take the startup time..just running around stopping others from starting.

only element I was arguing with you about was that risk/vs needs to be level and static across the board for all actions, regardless of outcome. i think each needs its own different ratio..so a player can find the one hes comfortable with, but still feels that the reward aspect is worth it.

22 pages an im spent...whatever...hope you can carry a lot of dirt in game =D


http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/42/210171-farva_punchisize_large.jpeg

[dxwarlock]

dont have 90str/agility for nothing...dragging logs all day slowly sucks..LOL

[Dade512]

I think it's funny that any time I see people talking about a game being a sandbox the primary idea that people have about what it should be is just running around killing whoever they want, whenever they want. As though the scope of their imagination is limited to just ganking, not pvp - actual "balanced" combat but just pk'ing - running around killing people you know can't really fight back.
And this, I think, is the primary reason the PvP vs. PvE discussion, if you can really call it that, will never be settled. The loudest voices for the "PvP" side want nothing but to kill the weaker players and crafters who won't fight back to take their stuff. Which, of course, sets off the weaker players and crafters. It's an endless cycle.

Also, this entire thread seems to be pointing directly to the solo-crafter. In 6-9 months it won't matter, on the assumption safe zones will in fact be removed. So for now, you have solo-players you can't get at. Big deal.

[dxwarlock]

22 pages an im spent...whatever...hope you can carry a lot of dirt in game =D

plus unless the patch/fix didnt work..wasnt that fixed in last patch?
Update February 22

Fixes

Swapping to soulbound items should be blocked.
Dropping dirt to dead players should be blocked.

[JCatano]

The statements made by Notorious Game are unambigous and clear. Interpretaion is not necessary. At first safe zones everywhere. The begining area we have now out to the mist. Later that area may be allowed to opt out. Xsyon says he is still considering this option. Later zones will be added and the mist will get pushed back from the begining area. Some or all of the newly added zone(s) may entirely be free of safe zones--maybe not--he is going to watch the server population to determine our course. Later servers will not all have safe zones. I suspect--given enough clients--there will be servers like ours with a begining safe zone optional area. But maybe this will be the only server with safe zone guarenteed areas. That part is unlcear.
I haven't, by any means, read much of the threads in this forum. No where that I've read has said a word about revoking a tribe's option to remain safe in the original area the game launches with.

No.

For Prelude, tribal zones are safe. He is considering allowing people to remove the safety of their tribe zone during Prelude. After Prelude, safety in tribe zones will be turned off.

The separate zone or server he is speaking of seems to reference this:

"We are considering setting up additional servers in both the US and Europe that will be more war oriented where we will remove safe zones and make some adjustments. At the moment this is very likely, but we have no set date for this."

Either a separate server or zone without any safety during Prelude.

[fflhktsn]

I think it's funny that any time I see people talking about a game being a sandbox the primary idea that people have about what it should be is just running around killing whoever they want, whenever they want. As though the scope of their imagination is limited to just ganking, not pvp - actual "balanced" combat but just pk'ing - running around killing people you know can't really fight back.
And this, I think, is the primary reason the PvP vs. PvE discussion, if you can really call it that, will never be settled. The loudest voices for the "PvP" side want nothing but to kill the weaker players and crafters who won't fight back to take their stuff. Which, of course, sets off the weaker players and crafters. It's an endless cycle.

Also, this entire thread seems to be pointing directly to the solo-crafter. In 6-9 months it won't matter, on the assumption safe zones will in fact be removed. So for now, you have solo-players you can't get at. Big deal.

if the players of a sandbox want to run around just killing eachother then they are free to do so in a sandbox..often that is the case becasue you are referenceing sandboxes that offerd that as the only form of entertainment.

also i pointed out some pretty obvious forms of abuse that larger tribes could do using their other account in sub tribes using safezones

and they said they wanted to keep safezones as an option during tribal warfare.

[orious13]

I think it's funny that any time I see people talking about a game being a sandbox the primary idea that people have about what it should be is just running around killing whoever they want, whenever they want. As though the scope of their imagination is limited to just ganking, not pvp - actual "balanced" combat but just pk'ing - running around killing people you know can't really fight back.
And this, I think, is the primary reason the PvP vs. PvE discussion, if you can really call it that, will never be settled. The loudest voices for the "PvP" side want nothing but to kill the weaker players and crafters who won't fight back to take their stuff. Which, of course, sets off the weaker players and crafters. It's an endless cycle.

Also, this entire thread seems to be pointing directly to the solo-crafter. In 6-9 months it won't matter, on the assumption safe zones will in fact be removed. So for now, you have solo-players you can't get at. Big deal.

exactly...

The big picture has been missed. This true sandbox is a pipe dream and has far too many problems to be viable for any producer to take it seriously.

[fflhktsn]

exactly...

The big picture has been missed. This true sandbox is a pipe dream and has far too many problems to be viable for any producer to take it seriously.

only because people like you refuse to take off the blinders.

no true sandbox has EVER been made.

you must be a game developer, because that is exactly the attitude that gets us 500 wow clones

[NexAnima]

again you missed the point as to fit your argument

UO moved away from a sandbox, it got old, its audience changed and they were never a full frontal sandbox to begin with. they were close however.

if this game stuck to a true sandbox mentality, create the world and drop the people in it, a lot of people would flock to it, i'm not talking wow sized community, but several times its current following to say the least.

that is if this game doesn't turn into another MO, where all the features never make it and it gets stuck in alhpa stage for life.

I for one see, both sides of the argument. My statement was the customers don't always know what they want...correction, they know what they want but they don't care how it affects others or the world. Hell, they scrapped the biggest (IMO) MMO (UO:X) because players didn't want to start over. The original UO was as close to a sandbox as you could get.

There's a reason we will never see a complete sandbox, the players. In pure anarchy, do you truly believe the player base has the ability/maturity to create a fully functional game world? No..without system checks and balances griefers would roll over every starting tribe and create a power imbalance. Without going to far into it, there's a reason modern society exists as it does...fear. In the case of real life, death is the fear that keeps us all in line. But what about the game world? You die respawn with perhaps less stuff but nothing you can't get back later. Where's the fear to guide the path of the players?

We the players do not have the ability to control the world as a community, because the minute our vision or objective changes we turn on one another like rabid dogs. Which would be fine if such a thing caused the fear need to control the the masses, but alas there is no fear or long term consequences for ones action, No there is no ability to control without coded system to keep the peace.

[fflhktsn]

I for one see, both sides of the argument. My statement was the customers don't always know what they want...correction, they know what they want but they don't care how it affects others or the world. Hell, they scrapped the biggest (IMO) MMO (UO:X) because players didn't want to start over. The original UO was as close to a sandbox as you could get.

There's a reason we will never see a complete sandbox, the players. In pure anarchy, do you truly believe the player base has the ability/maturity to create a fully functional game world? No..without system checks and balances griefers would roll over every starting tribe and create a power imbalance. Without going to far into it, there's a reason modern society exists as it does...fear. In the case of real life, death is the fear that keeps us all in line. But what about the game world? You die respawn with perhaps less stuff but nothing you can't get back later. Where's the fear to guide the path of the players?

We the players do not have the ability to control the world as a community, because the minute our vision or objective changes we turn on one another like rabid dogs. Which would be fine if such a thing caused the fear need to control the the masses, but alas there is no fear or long term consequences for ones action, No there is no ability to control without coded system to keep the peace.

again your missing the point. a sandbox isnt where the players choose how the game is created, what tools are in the game, or anything of the sort. they are simply allowed to do whatever they want in a world using the tools created for them

this doesnt involve penalizing people for choices, or creating optional safe areas, these are anti-sandbox features being discussed by development. also whatever that quite from jookie saying he wanted 90% of the community good aligned...that isnt a sandbox move. its up to the players to decide how they use the tools given to them in game

if they change their maind, and all of a sudden hate the pvp world they created, then they are free to regulate in game as they see fit, easily banding together to stomp out any reckless gankers, however in the process of doing this, they are in fact playing the game.

its not about bitching for arena pvp, getting it, then hating it, thats not sandbox...

[Dade512]

ffhktsn, I think you're the one missing a lot of points. All you keep doing is telling people they're missing the point, because they don't agree with your assessment.
Nex, I believe, was referring to not the creation of the game but the creation of a functional society within the game. Atleast that's what I got out of his post.

If 23pgs of people are "missing the point", maybe the point is flawed?

[MrKrueak]

again your missing the point.

if we are missing the point then point us somewhere where it defines a sandbox? fact is you can't because it is subjective, anywhere you look it defines a sandbox as a game with "limited rules" not "0 rules".

[Treepoet]

ffhktsn, I think you're the one missing a lot of points. All you keep doing is telling people they're missing the point, because they don't agree with your assessment.
Nex, I believe, was referring to not the creation of the game but the creation of a functional society within the game. Atleast that's what I got out of his post.

If 23pgs of people are "missing the point", maybe the point is flawed?

And your point is...?

[MrKrueak]

And your point is...?

had to laugh at that *lol*

[Dade512]

shhh...not need to point out my double standard in the first sentence! =P

[NexAnima]

ffhktsn, I think you're the one missing a lot of points. All you keep doing is telling people they're missing the point, because they don't agree with your assessment.
Nex, I believe, was referring to not the creation of the game but the creation of a functional society within the game. Atleast that's what I got out of his post.

If 23pgs of people are "missing the point", maybe the point is flawed?

Yea that's what I was shooting for, kind of rambled off. A true sandbox is the players using the tools to build a functional world. Unfortunately the only tools the majority want to use is an axe...

We will never see a true sand box in an MMO, peoples play-styles differ to greatly. I'm sure its been said before, to play as you want impairs the ability for others to play as they want. Its simple facts...

[orious13]

Yea that's what I was shooting for, kind of rambled off. A true sandbox is the players using the tools to build a functional world. Unfortunately the only tools the majority want to use is an axe...

We will never see a true sand box in an MMO, peoples play-styles differ to greatly. I'm sure its been said before, to play as you want impairs the ability for others to play as they want. Its simple facts...

Yayafication!

Is everyone getting the "can't post twice msg?"

It seems either my mouse is screwy or the forums think you're clicking twice on accident.

[NexAnima]

Yayafication!

Is everyone getting the "can't post twice msg?"

It seems either my mouse is screwy or the forums think you're clicking twice on accident.
Nope, I'm getting it too

[MrKrueak]

Yayafication!

Is everyone getting the "can't post twice msg?"

It seems either my mouse is screwy or the forums think you're clicking twice on accident.

not just you, happens to me too

[fflhktsn]

not just you, happens to me too

hopi tribe has declared this thread unacceptable, as such it is being shut down?

[Yokilla]

Either a separate server or zone without any safety during Prelude. Ok. But he doesn't say:"Tribal saftey zones will be removed." Or revoked or anything like that at all. I don't care when/if he adds zones without safty. I don't care if he adds the ability for tribes to remove their safty. I care about and want my magic safe zone where I can disengage from any pvp fight at any time. I've been paying close attention to what I've read about it. If they said that they were planing on removing the safty zones then I would plan on likely leaving the game at that time. I will eventuall have some fictional diety to thank for my magic safe zone. Thank <insert diety name> that <insert caster's name> has such a good connection to the spirit world.

[fflhktsn]

Ok. But he doesn't say:"Tribal saftey zones will be removed." Or revoked or anything like that at all. I don't care when/if he add zones without safty. I don't care if he adds the ability for tribes to remove their safty. I care about and want my magic safe zone where I can disengage from any pvp fight at any time. I will eventuall have some fictional diety to thank for my magic safe zone. Thank <insert diety name> that <insert caster's name> has such a good connection to the spirit world.

im very concerned with larger tribes using smaller "sub tribes" with protection. people do have multiple accounts, and you could easily create a choke point where you would have to pass through the sub tribes safe zone in order to attack the larger tribe. things like this concern me.

[MrKrueak]

im very concerned with larger tribes using smaller "sub tribes" with protection. people do have multiple accounts, and you could easily create a choke point where you would have to pass through the sub tribes safe zone in order to attack the larger tribe. things like this concern me.

you are very concerned about everything, each day it is something different.

[fflhktsn]

you are very concerned about everything, each day it is something different.

way to add something both relevant and interesting to this thread. I appreciate your bumping efforts.

[oneyedwang]

Currently in game there is little to no risk in being a pve focused crafter.

A crafing character can set his totem near reources, harvest in saftey, and once they are all depleted, abandon the totem, log off during the cooldown and place a new one near new resources.

A crafter doesnt need to leave the safezone to skill up and progress, in fact most stay at home near the saftey of their premission locked baskets to do so.

You cant even terraform without remaining inside your magical safe zone.

A combat character on the otherhand, needs to do all of his skill leveling far from any safe zone, animals are so hard to come by that other players are the better route. However if a death penalty that removes stats and skills is implimented, it puts all of the risk of the game on the combat characters.

Currently the largest tribe is full of crafters...how many crafters does one tribe need? Does a tribe of 10 or 20 need to have 15 crafters? Is this realistic in a dangerous and new world ravaged by an apocalypse? Civilizations of past relied on a few "crafters" in which to support the many "combat" people of their armies, defense of the tribe was the number one important factor of their survival, not who can weave the most baskets.

My hope is that this turns into a civilized and respectfull discussion about the purpose of a crafter heavy game, removing the no risk gameplay invloved with crafting, and why all of the risk must be plased on a player who chooses to defend said crafters, having to progress outside the safe zone and without any other means to progress other than hunting people.

You're really looking at the whole concept all wrong. You're question or argument is that crafters have no reason to leave their safe area and that solo crafters can just pickup and leave. Well flip that around, where is more reliance on combat from crafters.
IMO there is nothing wrong with the current safe zones as long as a more engaging (doesn't need a complete overhaul) combat system with more points of PVE interest to cause pvp strife. If a crafter needs a mutated deer skull to make l33t headgear_001 it should require a player or group of players to hunt. The two worlds need more synergy more reliance not necessarily forcing crafters to leave a safe point to get ganked by a 5yr old. Causing players to become easy targets to all when they've chosen a path that doesn't really give them the skill to defend themselves against such a thing isn't the answer.
Think outside the box or expand the conception of the box to include new facets. Ganking a guy fishing shouldn't be removed from the game While people find it annoying it's part of this games style and premise, but causing strife through pve elements that are limited by quantity or location or both thus forcing tribes to move into or near those areas in an attempt to control those resources might be a reasonable solution in the long run and would make for a more enjoyable game for both opposing views.

[fflhktsn]

I think its time to really think outside the box, ditch your safe zone and use the community for protection. We have plenty of games with safe zones and consensual pvp, this doesnt need to be just another one.

Also you have noticed how most people are crafters...theres not much reason to be a combat, hence the few of us that are have free reign on all the defenseless crafters who roam too far from their magical safe zone.

removing safe zones and any idea of death penalties only for evil aligned players and tribes will create a need for combat protection, give evil players some people to actually fight against, and wont create and eve type hot spots...where the powerful can camp and wait for anyone dumb enough to enter.

having the game system nudge you towards a good aligned crafter, by creating penalties, and removing any real way to progress as a combat without recieving harsh penalties isnt a sandbox.

the point was, i can craft and progress inside a safe zone, as a combat i have to kill people to progress, making me evil in the process. this is what im talking about. not my ability to gank a guy fishing...i know that isnt going away.

[oneyedwang]

the point was, i can craft and progress inside a safe zone, as a combat i have to kill people to progress, making me evil in the process. this is what im talking about. not my ability to gank a guy fishing...i know that isnt going away.

Guess my point was directed more at the two opposing views of "go back to DFO" or "go play atitd" There are games who have provided roadmaps on how to bridge these two worlds into one mmo. This game is attempting such a feat, but the combat and crafting need to have more reliance. The combats need more to do than gank a guy fishing Combat needs to provide more than I killed this guy or omfg deers do exsist.

[fflhktsn]

Guess my point was directed more at the two opposing views of "go back to DFO" or "go play atitd" There are games who have provided roadmaps on how to bridge these two worlds into one mmo. This game is attempting such a feat, but the combat and crafting need to have more reliance. The combats need more to do than gank a guy fishing Combat needs to provide more than I killed this guy or omfg deers do exsist.

understood

my aim is to give the combats a reason not to gank to progress, as it is currently the only way to progress. I know mobs are comming in the next part of the game, however to lay the foundation for a balanced game now will only serve to benifit the game later on.

[Yokilla]

Xyson says in update thread that server will be up round 1123 pm central.

[JCatano]

Ok. But he doesn't say:"Tribal saftey zones will be removed." Or revoked or anything like that at all. I don't care when/if he adds zones without safty. I don't care if he adds the ability for tribes to remove their safty. I care about and want my magic safe zone where I can disengage from any pvp fight at any time. I've been paying close attention to what I've read about it. If they said that they were planing on removing the safty zones then I would plan on likely leaving the game at that time. I will eventuall have some fictional diety to thank for my magic safe zone. Thank <insert diety name> that <insert caster's name> has such a good connection to the spirit world.

I'm telling you exactly what he posted in the past year. During Prelude, there are safety zones (tribe areas). After Prelude, that safety is being turned off. We may have an option to turn off safety zones in tribes areas during Prelude. We may also get another server without tribal safety zones during Prelude if there are enough subscriptions.

Even the people who dislike PvP in here know what he has said about them.

[fflhktsn]

I'm telling you exactly what he posted in the past year. During Prelude, there are safety zones (tribe areas). After Prelude, that safety is being turned off. We may have an option to turn off safety zones in tribes areas during Prelude. We may also get another server without tribal safety zones during Prelude if there are enough subscriptions.

Even the people who dislike PvP in here know what he has said about them.


Its all to cater to the solo player, which is always a terrible idea, especially in a game like this. Join an alliance, make your homestead within friendly territory pick a spot far from the lake, there are plenty of ways for players who do not wish to partake in the "crowd" and yet remain relativly safe.

The longer these safe zones remain, the less able our community who relies on them will be able to adapt. So since totems are not attackable anyway...why not just get rid of them all together?

this really isnt about the safezone however. its about what route a combat character must take in order to progress, and what options a crafter has to progress...resulting in 90% of the game being crafters. They need to get rid of this notion that crafters must be protected by game systems, and create an actual need to have combat characters in your tribe and as friends.

THis isnt about forcing pvp on crafter either, its all about creating a need for a chosen path and creating balance. A tribe of all crafters should have a more difficult time surviving than a well balanced tribe with both player types.

This also has to do with removing any intentions or talk about nerfing your choice to go evil ( a choice that is currently forced upon all combat characters) we need a foundation for factional balance as well. Choosing evil should mean you remain evil, same with going good, it shouldnt change, there is no body of law in the lore in which to label you good or evil based on actions. The current system may result later on on one faction being a zerg...not fun. Any "good" alignment tribe that is actually evil in intentions, could then be shunned by the rest of the good tribes for their actions, and possibly removed using neuteral merc tribes to do thier biddings.

[Dade512]

I'm just not understanding how you won't have anyone to fight against as a combat player. There's other people making combat oriented characters, not to mention, as you pointed out, the crafters who have to leave their safe zone to go find new materials or hunt, thus needing protection.
You keep telling people how YOU want them to play, man. You were the annoying kid in the sandbox "No! You're building it all wrong!! *kicks over castle* You HAVE to do it like this!"
FFS, the game hasn't even officially launched and you're saying it's all wrong. Let them get it going and let's see what develops.
Who knows...maybe you'll find all these crafters you're looking to get a "fight" out of.


this really isnt about the safezone however.
It isn't??

They need to get rid of this notion that crafters must be protected by game systems,...

Totems, btw, are also the tribal quest and tribal management hub. Getting rid of those would impair the tribe...

What it all boils down to is how YOU wish you could play...that's all

its about what route a combat character must take in order to progress
You're having a frustrating time right now because tribes currently have safe zones. Safe zones that will be eventually going away. Safe zones that some clans may eventually be able to turn off during Prelude if they so decide.
You want the game and other players to fit how you want to play, right now, and to hell with anyone else.
You keep talking about how the only way to play a combat character is a way that forces you to be evil. Did it ever occur to you that because of the way you CHOOSE to play your combat character is why you're becoming evil. Perhaps methods other than random pk's allow a combat character NOT to be evil. Just an idea not founded in any sort of functional theory...

[ifireallymust]

Its all to cater to the solo player, which is always a terrible idea, especially in a game like this. Join an alliance, make your homestead within friendly territory pick a spot far from the lake, there are plenty of ways for players who do not wish to partake in the "crowd" and yet remain relativly safe.

The longer these safe zones remain, the less able our community who relies on them will be able to adapt. So since totems are not attackable anyway...why not just get rid of them all together?

this really isnt about the safezone however. its about what route a combat character must take in order to progress, and what options a crafter has to progress...resulting in 90% of the game being crafters. They need to get rid of this notion that crafters must be protected by game systems, and create an actual need to have combat characters in your tribe and as friends.

THis isnt about forcing pvp on crafter either, its all about creating a need for a chosen path and creating balance. A tribe of all crafters should have a more difficult time surviving than a well balanced tribe with both player types.

This also has to do with removing any intentions or talk about nerfing your choice to go evil ( a choice that is currently forced upon all combat characters) we need a foundation for factional balance as well. Choosing evil should mean you remain evil, same with going good, it shouldnt change, there is no body of law in the lore in which to label you good or evil based on actions. The current system may result later on on one faction being a zerg...not fun. Any "good" alignment tribe that is actually evil in intentions, could then be shunned by the rest of the good tribes for their actions, and possibly removed using neuteral merc tribes to do thier biddings.

Back to the anti solo player issue again. I think you're smarter than that. I think you know as well as I do that a tribe of 5 against a tribe of 50 with no safe zones, no walls, no buildings, no defenses of any kind, jumping into the game and trying to find a place to put a totem is dead meat, same as the solo player is dead meat against a tribe of 5. Please don't make up excuses for why you want the safe zones gone at launch if those excuses are going to pin some sort of blame on me for somehow 'ruining' your game play with my tiny little safe spot and my solo play style. You're wrong, you know you're wrong, and it's getting old.

[fflhktsn]

Back to the anti solo player issue again. I think you're smarter than that. I think you know as well as I do that a tribe of 5 against a tribe of 50 with no safe zones, no walls, no buildings, no defenses of any kind, jumping into the game and trying to find a place to put a totem is dead meat, same as the solo player is dead meat against a tribe of 5. Please don't make up excuses for why you want the safe zones gone at launch if those excuses are going to pin some sort of blame on me for somehow 'ruining' your game play with my tiny little safe spot and my solo play style. You're wrong, you know you're wrong, and it's getting old.

Catering to solo players is a fundamantal error that wrecks the game for a majority of players. People will choose the path of least resistance always, if its easyer to progress as a solo player, protected by the game system, people will take that route, a lot will. You can still play solo, with out any protections, and still be a participant in the multiplayer aspect of this game, its just your going to have to work harder at it than those who dont, simple as that. That is how it should be