Do you have a misconception about this game?

[KeithStone]

This is the very first thing in the very first paragraph of the home page.


War has destroyed life as we know it. The Apocalypse is at hand!
Will you fight for justice to stop the chaos or will you join in the ranks of evil to bring upon the ultimate destruction of the earth?

I'm not targeting one type of player here, both sides the pve/crafter side and the pvp/combat side only see what they want to see when they read the features list posted here: http://www.xsyon.com/features

[MrKrueak]

and i keep seeing posts with people saying that xyson is all about pvp since it is ffa full loot. The feature page shows differently if look at the vast ammount of other features planned with a small section devoted toward PVP, if the game was pvp oriented then the features would be listed in a way to entice the pvp crowd but instead they are enticing the pve crowd.

wait now i get it, it is all part of the plan to lure us here as targets, damn demonic devs :P (j/k)

[orious13]

True at the home page the first line of the "lore" leaves a little misconception, but I read all features and MANY/MUCH of the forum before choosing to pre-order. So in the end my conception was not missed...

...not that conception...

[mrcalhou]

I STILL fail to see how people think that either play-style has to be mutally exclusive within the game. There can be both meaningful pvp and safe-zone pve in one game. I don't even think it'd be that hard to balance, either. Hell, they can even go the Eve-online route and make some of the zones safe in general. Put crafting materials, animals, and dungeons (whatever) in that area, and then put other types of materials and animals and so on into other parts of the map that's designated as PvP.

People complain that it's "not realistic" but this game is about demons and gods and a magical apocalypse. I don't think the dev's care THAT much about realism.

All they have to do is make it balanced and make it fun. I honestly think most people don't care that much about lore in an MMO, unless the lore is emergent based on player actions.

[mrcalhou]

Double post.

[JCatano]

If you ask me both crowds see what they want to see in that feature list.

Yep, and I saw lots of cool features. Even better, I also saw a long post from Jordi about open-PvP, looting, and no safe zones after Prelude.

[MrKrueak]

Yep, and I saw lots of cool features. Even better, I also saw a long post from Jordi about open-PvP, looting, and no safe zones after Prelude.

i don't think anyone is denying that about after prelude, the whole arguement has been for prelude not after.

[FabricSoftener]

holy crap this game has pvp I didnt see it in the feature list.

[Vicid]

Uh... so could a pve/crafter explain to me how one 'fights for justice' without leaving a safe zone?

[JCatano]

Uh... so could a pve/crafter explain to me how one 'fights for justice' without leaving a safe zone?

Guides do it for them.

[Volcom]

I am new too mmos, can anyone tell me what PVP and PVE stand for?

[JCatano]

I am new too mmos, can anyone tell me what PVP and PVE stand for?

Download WWII Online, noob.

[MrKrueak]

I am new too mmos, can anyone tell me what PVP and PVE stand for?

i'm sure you are joking but just incase i will be a nice guy and take the bait.

PVP = player vs player
PVE = Player vs enviroment

[KeithStone]

Uh... so could a pve/crafter explain to me how one 'fights for justice' without leaving a safe zone?

it's not about that, a crafter doesn't have to fight for anything if that's how they choose to play.

this is not a post about safe zones, it's a post about what this game is about.

Fighting for justice, or creating chaos.

A crafter can choose to fight for justice by crafting and trading with good players- or said crafter can choose to help create the chaos by crafting and trading with evil tribes.

Fighting melee/range is not the only way to fight in Xsyon.

Combat is my preferred method to fight the good fight, however with Xsyon having the complex city building mechanics that's where you will see me most of the time, forever building and expanding our city.

[Soulwanderer]

it's not about that, a crafter doesn't have to fight for anything if that's how they choose to play.

this is not a post about safe zones, it's a post about what this game is about.

Fighting for justice, or creating chaos.

A crafter can choose to fight for justice by crafting and trading with good players- or said crafter can choose to help create the chaos by crafting and trading with evil tribes.

Fighting melee/range is not the only way to fight in Xsyon.

You cannot 'fight' for justice by essentially being a merchant. That's just not being a problem. Face it. The game includes PvE and PvP, and if it's going to succeed it's going to have to pander to both markets. As we plan on being an evil tribe and killing everyone on site I appreciate that. Where else am I gonna find my fodder?

[KeithStone]

You cannot 'fight' for justice by essentially being a merchant. That's just not being a problem. Face it. The game includes PvE and PvP, and if it's going to succeed it's going to have to pander to both markets. As we plan on being an evil tribe and killing everyone on site I appreciate that. Where else am I gonna find my fodder?

I think you misunderstand me- I am a big pvp fan and believe in absolutely no safe zones, period.

My point is that the crafting crowd will play a big role for tribes like you and me- they will be there for your slaghtering enjoyment and you will also need crafters to get supplies to keep on fighting.

You will come to rely on the neutral trading players that will deal with evil tribes.

My pvp fun comes from fighting other combat oriented players, killing a crafter holding some valuable merchandise is just a plus.

[Soulwanderer]

I think you misunderstand me- I am a big pvp fan and believe in absolutely no safe zones, period.

My point is that the crafting crowd will play a big role for tribes like you and me- they will be there for your slaghtering enjoyment and you will also need crafters to get supplies to keep on fighting.

You will come to rely on the neutral trading players that will deal with evil tribes.

My pvp fun comes from fighting other combat oriented players, killing a crafter holding some valuable merchandise is just a plus.


Then I believe I did misunderstand. If the game really takes off and become long term though I don't think anyone will be heavily reliant on others for resources if they have enough members. Even as a PvPer you won't generally 100% of the time feel like hunting others... we sit around BSing in vent sometimes and can craft during downtime. Not to mention, eventually killing people and looting their gear just gets stockpiled and you can snag replacements from the baskets as needed.

[ifireallymust]

You cannot 'fight' for justice by essentially being a merchant. That's just not being a problem. Face it. The game includes PvE and PvP, and if it's going to succeed it's going to have to pander to both markets. As we plan on being an evil tribe and killing everyone on site I appreciate that. Where else am I gonna find my fodder?

Of course you can, just as some companies (IBM, for example) failed to fight for justice (or to uphold any shred of decency) by doing business with Nazi Germany. A merchant can choose to fight for justice by choosing who she will or will not do business with. The word Boycott comes from the name of an Irish land agent that local merchants refused to do business with after Irish tenants were evicted from their homes.

[Soulwanderer]

Of course you can, just as some companies (IBM, for example) failed to fight for justice (or to uphold any shred of decency) by doing business with Nazi Germany. A merchant can choose to fight for justice by choosing who she will or will not do business with. The word Boycott comes from the name of an Irish land agent that local merchants refused to do business with after Irish tenants were evicted from their homes.

We may have to agree to disagree on that. From my PvP MMO experience I don't usually expect to be doing business with another guild unless I'm stealing from them. Their unwillingness to 'allow' me to pay for something doesn't really enter into the picture of my expectations. They're either in my range and about to die/kill me or they're not much of a concern. It seems that with a fair sized guild (10-20) you should have plenty of people to craft what you need, and killing other people is a great way to not have to craft weapons/armor at all if you're good at it.

[ifireallymust]

We may have to agree to disagree on that. From my PvP MMO experience I don't usually expect to be doing business with another guild unless I'm stealing from them. Their unwillingness to 'allow' me to pay for something doesn't really enter into the picture of my expectations. They're either in my range and about to die/kill me or they're not much of a concern. It seems that with a fair sized guild (10-20) you should have plenty of people to craft what you need, and killing other people is a great way to not have to craft weapons/armor at all if you're good at it.

It's fine that you and I have different play styles. The fact that choosing to do business with some players while refusing to do business with others doesn't fit with your play style does not make it impossible for me to fit it into my play style, however.

[KeithStone]

It's fine that you and I have different play styles. The fact that choosing to do business with some players while refusing to do business with others doesn't fit with your play style does not make it impossible for me to fit it into my play style, however.

I think what ifireallymust is trying to say is that he can be part of the fight for justice by not trading with Evil tribes, regardless if your (soulwanderer) tribe uses other crafters outside your tribe or not.

What I'm curious to see is how hard/easy it will be to craft decent gear with most stats put into combat- I'm not talking about alts, I know lots of people use them, me included.

If it's done right imo a tribe who spends most of their time in combat and doesn't have any dedicated crafters would have a hard time keeping up with the demand for more gear.

[ifireallymust]

I think what ifireallymust is trying to say is that he can be part of the fight for justice by not trading with Evil tribes, regardless if your (soulwanderer) tribe uses other crafters outside your tribe or not.

What I'm curious to see is how hard/easy it will be to craft decent gear with most stats put into combat- I'm not talking about alts, I know lots of people use them, me included.

If it's done right imo a tribe who spends most of their time in combat and doesn't have any dedicated crafters would have a hard time keeping up with the demand for more gear.

If a good tribe wants to trade for it, I'll certainly be willing to do so, and I'm sure plenty of other solo and small tribe merchants will do the same, with good, neutral, or evil tribes, depending on their own alignment and in game morals. I'm not a 'thee' 'thou' roleplayer, I don't wander around in character, but I do have some roleplaying tendencies, and who I do business with in a game is one of them.

[Soulwanderer]

It's fine that you and I have different play styles. The fact that choosing to do business with some players while refusing to do business with others doesn't fit with your play style does not make it impossible for me to fit it into my play style, however.


I think you've lost track of the initial point of the thread which is that this game is designed for both PvP and Crafting (I'd say PvE, but the most I've seen of it so far are a handful of bears). Doesn't have much to do with individual playstyles and whether you choose to be stingey about whose money you'll take.

[ifireallymust]

I think you've lost track of the initial point of the thread which is that this game is designed for both PvP and Crafting (I'd say PvE, but the most I've seen of it so far are a handful of bears). Doesn't have much to do with individual playstyles and whether you choose to be stingey about whose money you'll take.

I believe a quote regarding fighting for forces of good or evil or some such was posted, and then someone said you can't do that as a merchant, and I said you can (using IBM as a disgraceful example of businessmen who chose to fight for evil and mentioning the origin of the word 'boycott' just because I felt like being a know it all). So I'm still on topic. I don't have to kill an evil player every day to 'fight the forces of evil' in a game (although that's not to say I won't do so).

[Soulwanderer]

I believe a quote regarding fighting for forces of good or evil or some such was posted, and then someone said you can't do that as a merchant, and I said you can (using IBM as a disgraceful example of businessmen who chose to fight for evil and mentioning the origin of the word 'boycott' just because I felt like being a know it all). So I'm still on topic. I don't have to kill an evil player every day to 'fight the forces of evil' in a game (although that's not to say I won't do so).

IRL there is economic warfare and it even makes its way into certain games. I haven't spotted a mechanic yet for it in this one. :p

[ifireallymust]

IRL there is economic warfare and it even makes its way into certain games. I haven't spotted a mechanic yet for it in this one. :p

Sadly, in real life, economic warfare by the powerless against the powerful is usually met with a beatstick and evil triumphs quite handily. In a game, we don't need a mechanic, it's a sandbox, remember? I keep a list of who I will and won't trade with, individuals and tribes, and I go about my business, happy in the knowledge that if I am killed for it, I'll be back again in a minute or so, if minus a few belongings!

[fflhktsn]

I support this thread. A foundation of balance needs to be laid down for proper future growth of the game. If a safe route is offerd, most will take that, leading to imbalances in the future.

If the safest route would be a combat ganker, like in darkfall, then everyone would just do that. Likewise with the current intentions from the developer to create optional pvp and stat/skill losses upon death for anyone choosing the evil alignment. All this does is create a path of least resistance, where like water, the players will flow towards.

[Banok]

I STILL fail to see how people think that either play-style has to be mutally exclusive within the game. There can be both meaningful pvp and safe-zone pve in one game. I don't even think it'd be that hard to balance, either. Hell, they can even go the Eve-online route and make some of the zones safe in general. Put crafting materials, animals, and dungeons (whatever) in that area, and then put other types of materials and animals and so on into other parts of the map that's designated as PvP.

People complain that it's "not realistic" but this game is about demons and gods and a magical apocalypse. I don't think the dev's care THAT much about realism.

All they have to do is make it balanced and make it fun. I honestly think most people don't care that much about lore in an MMO, unless the lore is emergent based on player actions.

Eve system please. I dont even like the game tbh but in that area they nailed it. PvP hostspots are better than global pvp anyway.

[fflhktsn]

Eve system please. I dont even like the game tbh but in that area they nailed it. PvP hostspots are better than global pvp anyway.

eve's safezones create issues that wont work in a game this small, its already been disproven as a good thing in eve anyway...this isnt eve...dont try to make this like eve.

[Dubanka]

I think there is less a misconception about the game than a misconception about the parties involved...

all pvprs are not rabid pk's
all pvers are not flaming carebears.

most of the long term pvp guilds are well honed machines that can outcarebear the carebears when it's required...logistics wins wars.

I've seen many pve guilds turn quite nasty when push came to shove...they aren't all pacifist whiners.

I'd wager that most of us on a pvp side of the house want a sustainable, balanced game that has the ability to hold our interests on a long term level.

Yes, of course this is FFA, so open field combat is of course an subject, Tribal warfare is an even bigger focus...but along with that it's the support elements, the crafting, trading, econonic and political systems and dynamics that keep us here.

Most of us realize that yes, it takes different types of players to make a game...and i presume most of you understand that a population of rabid crafters isn't going to be enough to keep this dev team in business very long.

SO at the end of the day, most of us, i think, want balance. Unfortunatelyl, just as irl, our tactics are fight from the periphery and hope it arrives at the center.

at the end of the day, it's the devs game, and they'll make it however the hell they please...i just hope they make it so they stay in business long enough to get out of the prelude.

[MrKrueak]

eve's safezones create issues that wont work in a game this small, its already been disproven as a good thing in eve anyway...this isnt eve...dont try to make this like eve.

just FYI eve online started off with a smaller player base then this game with a system that you say won't work with a game this small. Nothing has been disproven about eve system being good thing or not, you are injecting your opinion as fact as anyone with an IQ knows an opinion can not be disproven or proven only facts and the fact is eve's system works there is a reason why it has only kept growing since 2003.

also this isn't dark fall, don't try to make it like darkfall.
also this isn't mortal online, don't try to make it like mortal online.

[ifireallymust]

just FYI eve online started off with a smaller player base then this game with a system that you say won't work with a game this small. Nothing has been disproven about eve system being good thing or not, you are injecting your opinion as fact as anyone with an IQ knows an opinion can not be disproven or proven only facts and the fact is eve's system works there is a reason why it has only kept growing since 2003.

also this isn't dark fall, don't try to make it like darkfall.
also this isn't mortal online, don't try to make it like mortal online.

All true.

And we don't even know what will happen between now and 6-9 months from now as far as game population, land mass, features, or anything else goes. Time to not stress this issue for awhile.

[fflhktsn]

to make the game like DF, we would have to remove content, no one wants that

to make the game like MO we would...well its close to MO imo, but still

you are just using forum buzz phrases to prove your point

we dont need the game to follow eve either, that game has issues and has issues related to its static safe zones.

enough with the buzz phrases or "it worked in this game so...."

[MrKrueak]

to make the game like DF, we would have to remove content, no one wants that

to make the game like MO we would...well its close to MO imo, but still

you are just using forum buzz phrases to prove your point

we dont need the game to follow eve either, that game has issues and has issues related to its static safe zones.

enough with the buzz phrases or "it worked in this game so...."

if i'm using forum buzz phrases than what the hell are you using?

[fflhktsn]

if i'm using forum buzz phrases than what the hell are you using?

read my OP in my thread discussing this please, mabey you can understand both what a true sandbox is and what safezones (like eve or not) and penalties twords a chosen path in game mean

thank you

[MrKrueak]

read my OP in my thread discussing this please, mabey you can understand both what a true sandbox is and what safezones (like eve or not) and penalties twords a chosen path in game mean

thank you

you don't know what a true sandbox is, you just have your opinion about it. like i said show me where a sandbox is defined as you describe it. a sandbox is a player term not a genre defining term and since it is a player term it has different meanings for different players thus being subjective.

[fflhktsn]

read my OP in my thread discussing this please, mabey you can understand both what a true sandbox is and what safezones (like eve or not) and penalties twords a chosen path in game mean

thank you

[Dubanka]

you don't know what a true sandbox is, you just have your opinion about it. like i said show me where a sandbox is defined as you describe it. a sandbox is a player term not a genre defining term and since it is a player term it has different meanings for different players thus being subjective.

we're really arguing over who has the better definition of sandbox.

serioulsy?

[JCatano]

just FYI eve online started off with a smaller player base then this game with a system that you say won't work with a game this small. Nothing has been disproven about eve system being good thing or not, you are injecting your opinion as fact as anyone with an IQ knows an opinion can not be disproven or proven only facts and the fact is eve's system works there is a reason why it has only kept growing since 2003.

also this isn't dark fall, don't try to make it like darkfall.
also this isn't mortal online, don't try to make it like mortal online.

On that note... This game isn't EVE, either. Also, EVE has no space-MMO competition, yet. No idea if Black Prophecy and Jumpgate 2 are going to be released.

[mrcalhou]

It's foolish to be different for the sake of being different. It's a much better idea to look back and see what works well and what doesn't work well. It's also not wrong to experiment, but you have to be willing to adjust accordingly. They can release the game like it is now, but if something seems broken with how the way the systems work with respect to each other, then it'd be really foolish not to try to make it better after the game is released just because it might upset a couple people.

I'm going to say that I think having tribal safe zones is a good idea. Since, like it's been pointed out, that's a relatively small area. However, are there any "exploits" with this? Well, yes I think there are. People can set up individual homesteads that function as safe zones, so a bunch of individuals could form a de facto tribe of homesteads around a lot of resource nodes, practically cornering the market for those items if they don't appear in suitible quantities. This might not be so bad knowing that they can be killed while transporting their goods amongst their "tribe" mates, but it's still just one scenerio that might not be balanced as well as it otherwise could be.

Another issue is the ghost form. Good players can just stalk and spy on people when they are dead and no one can do anything about it. Or they can keep respawning over an evil player until they wear that person down enough to kill them. This effectively makes good players invulnerable. The Good vs. Evil system needs to be tweaked to make it more fair. It should certainly be harder for an evil player, but only if the rewards for doing so are good enough to compensate. Just that it'd be a harder, more difficult, playstyle would be enough of a detterent for many people to choose to be good. But it MUST be balanced.

[mrcalhou]

It's foolish to be different for the sake of being different. It's a much better idea to look back and see what works well and what doesn't work well. It's also not wrong to experiment, but you have to be willing to adjust accordingly. They can release the game like it is now, but if something seems broken with how the way the systems work with respect to each other, then it'd be really foolish not to try to make it better after the game is released just because it might upset a couple people.

I'm going to say that I think having tribal safe zones is a good idea. Since, like it's been pointed out, that's a relatively small area. However, are there any "exploits" with this? Well, yes I think there are. People can set up individual homesteads that function as safe zones, so a bunch of individuals could form a de facto tribe of homesteads around a lot of resource nodes, practically cornering the market for those items if they don't appear in suitible quantities. This might not be so bad knowing that they can be killed while transporting their goods amongst their "tribe" mates, but it's still just one scenerio that might not be balanced as well as it otherwise could be.

Another issue is the ghost form. Good players can just stalk and spy on people when they are dead and no one can do anything about it. Or they can keep respawning over an evil player until they wear that person down enough to kill them. This effectively makes good players invulnerable. The Good vs. Evil system needs to be tweaked to make it more fair. It should certainly be harder for an evil player, but only if the rewards for doing so are good enough to compensate. Just that it'd be a harder, more difficult, playstyle would be enough of a detterent for many people to choose to be good. But it MUST be balanced.