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View Full Version : Penalties for being 'evil'/red



Eonwe
03-15-2010, 12:28 PM
I know the developers have said that they want to make PvP meaningful, not just something people do for no reason. As a red in almost every game, it really bothers me that for every 1 decent red player there are 10 drooling morons who want nothing more than to just kill everyone for no reason. A big problem with this is that there aren't really any meaningful consequences for death. If players really had to worry about death I think the only players that would be 'evil' for any length of time are the fairly good red players.

Someone in IRC mentioned permadeath could be a consequence. I'm not really opposed to that, but it is a very harsh penalty. I do also recognize that lag spikes and other things out of the control of the player do happen, so it might be a bit too rough of a thing to simply kill them off immediately.

I was thinking of tying this in with the aging system. Since players all age, I think it would be good if 'evil' players aged a number of years on their character. I'm not sure what the revival system is in this game. Maybe they make use of pre-Apocalypse 'cloning' technology, and the evil mindset of the player causes the player to age at a greatly accelerated rate for a certain amount of time.

I know that idea might sound a little silly, but science has shown that people with 'positive' life outlooks do tend to improve better as compared to 'negative' outlooks. I'm guessing it has something to do with stress/depression, which both do affect your health negatively. In any case, I guess the 'lore' reason could be worked on, but what do you think of this idea?

What ideas do you have on 'evil' penalties?

brando
03-15-2010, 01:00 PM
I think it has a solid basis and is a reasonable trade off to be made. I appreciated your comment about the 10 drooling morons wanting to mindlessly PK everyone as it makes no sense in context of the gameworld, but if there aren't any mechanics to prevent it, then you can't really do anything about it. On the other hand I can't stand the PVE no PvP at all or the OMG he PK'd me he must hack mentality.

I'm hoping for a hidden flag system that doesn't tell you someone is red or blue or whatever color. It should be more of a reputation note for NPC guards. Your reputation as a murderer should be spread by through other players either witnessing the act or via the rumor mill. I like player driven solutions the most when it comes to these situations. Bounty systems that are contributed to by players and NPCs can help keep players in check. If you're constantly hunted by everyone because you're infamous it adds a bit of risk. You also add a Bounty Hunter element to the game that gives traditional reds something else to do.

I've always wanted to see a PVE bounty system too. Let's say you hunt a certain faction of human NPCs to no end. Why shouldn't they be able to put a bounty on you as well? Traditional Blues should have some risk as well if they want to slap penalties on Reds. I know people will whine about this not being fair, but c'mon, its the apocalypse. You have to assume some risk no matter what you do. Obviously bears and pigs wouldn't place a bounty on you unless some fanatical hippies come chasing you down one day.

I generally stay Blue in most games, but its because there's usually enough Reds around for me to PvP and not even risk going Red myself these days. I spent some Red time in MO after people kept killing my damn pets. Its not that I was trying to become Red, its just that there were enough idiots en masse acting like total idiots that needed to be whacked. That's why I don't like the whole Red vs. Blue, Good vs. Evil game so much. Sometimes people do things that deserve a good hack and slash and you shouldn't have to pay with a permanent flag of any sort. If a guy tries to break into my house he's going to get a face full of shotgun.

Sometimes the game cannot account for dynamic situations since its a pre-programmed thing. To make up for this there should be a way to stay "Red" if you want to be "Red" yet have the freedom to be able to defend your territory and take action in those grey areas of moral judgement. Maybe with the bounty system you could pay the bounty yourself to get it reduced. Maybe I'd take a hit to the aging process if I wanted to do that as well.

I'd rather have a player enforced system with some NPC supplements and perhaps some of what Eonwe is suggesting rather than a brick wall of a feature.

Cradlejoe
03-15-2010, 01:03 PM
I'm really not in the mood for masses of text so I haven't read it all but I think a penalty for being undead is a need for human flesh.

Eonwe
03-15-2010, 01:15 PM
I'd definitely like a player driven solution as much as possible as well. For most encounters I'd definitely like player interaction to be the driving force behind PvP, especially in regards to red punishment. The problem is, I just don't really know how much punishment the idiots are willing to take before they get filtered out. The lightest possible coded punishment is what should be given to 'evil' players that will make being 'evil' meaningful rather than being filled with a bunch of mindless PKers.

brando
03-15-2010, 01:21 PM
Heh, I guess my solution to this is to make my own MMO one day and have a private dev-invite only server that would be pure heaven of only the best players that didn't whine and complain all the time or act like idiots 24/7.

Kuroi
03-15-2010, 01:23 PM
brando wrote:

I'm hoping for a hidden flag system that doesn't tell you someone is red or blue or whatever color. It should be more of a reputation note for NPC guards. Your reputation as a murderer should be spread by through other players either witnessing the act or via the rumor mill.this would be really, but really cool :) very nice idea imho

Reynolds
03-15-2010, 01:40 PM
Kuroi wrote:

brando wrote:

I'm hoping for a hidden flag system that doesn't tell you someone is red or blue or whatever color. It should be more of a reputation note for NPC guards. Your reputation as a murderer should be spread by through other players either witnessing the act or via the rumor mill.this would be really, but really cool :) very nice idea imho

One issue with this would be "red" would have to be perma, otherwise you'd get issues of "aha, dirty pk scum lets get him" "wtf, I'm red now?"

If you murder my friends or kin, I have a cassus belli against you, regardless of if you say sorry and promise to be nice afterwards.

Lily
03-15-2010, 02:08 PM
brando wrote:

Heh, I guess my solution to this is to make my own MMO one day and have a private dev-invite only server that would be pure heaven of only the best players that didn't whine and complain all the time or act like idiots 24/7.

An empty server in other words?

Virtus
03-15-2010, 02:33 PM
The flag system will be name tags.

Good and neutral players you will have to meet before a name tag appears over their head, good players will have green ones.

Evil, on the other hand, their name tags will always be displayed to everyone and in red.

treyu
03-15-2010, 02:57 PM
Virtus wrote:

The flag system will be name tags.

Good and neutral players you will have to meet before a name tag appears over their head, good players will have green ones.

Evil, on the other hand, their name tags will always be displayed to everyone and in red.


This is a very bad design in my opinion. If evil players have their names floating so that everybody can see them, you take out ALL the skill in hiding that a pvp game should have. So now, if I am red, I CAN'T hide behind rocks or trees, because my name will be floating on top of me and people will say: you idiot, i know you are behind that tree i can see your name. Totally silly in my opinion, you take out all the sneaking skill from players that want to be evil. Note that I won't be evil, but I won't like to see evil players name, it takes out SO much inmersion.

TangerineSky
03-15-2010, 03:01 PM
treyu wrote:

Virtus wrote:

The flag system will be name tags.

Good and neutral players you will have to meet before a name tag appears over their head, good players will have green ones.

Evil, on the other hand, their name tags will always be displayed to everyone and in red.


This is a very bad design in my opinion. If evil players have their names floating so that everybody can see them, you take out ALL the skill in hiding that a pvp game should have. So now, if I am red, I CAN'T hide behind rocks or trees, because my name will be floating on top of me and people will say: you idiot, i know you are behind that tree i can see your name. Totally silly in my opinion, you take out all the sneaking skill from players that want to be evil. Note that I won't be evil, but I won't like to see evil players name, it takes out SO much inmersion.
Darkfall did this right. They have the name tags but you can't see the name tag unless your crosshairs are over them. This allowed hiding while still being able to determine alignment.

JCatano
03-15-2010, 03:09 PM
Virtus wrote:

The flag system will be name tags.

Good and neutral players you will have to meet before a name tag appears over their head, good players will have green ones.

Evil, on the other hand, their name tags will always be displayed to everyone and in red.

Horrible, horrible mechanic.

"Hey, why does that bush over there have a name?"

Eonwe
03-15-2010, 03:10 PM
Tangerine's way is the best way.

Cradlejoe
03-15-2010, 03:20 PM
Eonwe wrote:

Tangerine's way is the best way.

Much agree'd. Mix crosshair hover and a reasonable distance and possibly even a small amount of time that you need to have the mouse over them (To stop people just scanning bushes like they're using a scanner from star trek).

I have to say I don't like the idea of Reds having an always showing name tag.
I like the good/neutral idea though.

Virtus
03-15-2010, 04:29 PM
TangerineSky wrote:

treyu wrote:

Virtus wrote:

The flag system will be name tags.

Good and neutral players you will have to meet before a name tag appears over their head, good players will have green ones.

Evil, on the other hand, their name tags will always be displayed to everyone and in red.


This is a very bad design in my opinion. If evil players have their names floating so that everybody can see them, you take out ALL the skill in hiding that a pvp game should have. So now, if I am red, I CAN'T hide behind rocks or trees, because my name will be floating on top of me and people will say: you idiot, i know you are behind that tree i can see your name. Totally silly in my opinion, you take out all the sneaking skill from players that want to be evil. Note that I won't be evil, but I won't like to see evil players name, it takes out SO much inmersion.
Darkfall did this right. They have the name tags but you can't see the name tag unless your crosshairs are over them. This allowed hiding while still being able to determine alignment.

This could be the case also. I'm sure if it is't and the community would prefer it to be Jooky would act like number 1 and make it so.

warzenkai
03-15-2010, 04:59 PM
To be red is like a religion son.Let me explain this properly and how it is good to be done.To be the real deal the hated/loved god that own all and all knell before it is the best reward.To be feared is not to bad and being red will grant you 800 young females next to respawn spot.Another great thing is that you may get some stat penalties if you get killed and some tribes/city's will not want to talk/trade/give you quests ,and this will be great for you and the game being harder will make you more stronger than others and you will be even more stronger in your continues battles.To finish this ,you have all the reasons to be red and you need to be happy ,just like me.

brando
03-15-2010, 11:12 PM
I love the good/neutral idea, so I suppose if its that way for them, its possibly to make it so for reds mechanically.

The bi polar carebear in me goes 'yay,' but the common sense part of me goes, 'wtf?' when it comes to reds. At the end of the day I guess the blue/grey/neutral thing supplements your character's knowledge of a person's reputation versus the guy sitting behind the screen. More of a game mechanic vs. realism kind of sacrifice.

In Haven and Hearth you had to right click and memorize a person before they were added to you friend's list or there name would even show up in chat or when you moused over them. That would provide a 'delay' in determining alignment. Of course by then if they're still charging at you with an ax or jump out of the bush at you you've probably figured it out.

Palo god
03-15-2010, 11:26 PM
Virtus wrote:

The flag system will be name tags.

Good and neutral players you will have to meet before a name tag appears over their head, good players will have green ones.

Evil, on the other hand, their name tags will always be displayed to everyone and in red.

So red players wont be able to hide in bushes?

Virtus
03-16-2010, 12:09 AM
Palo god wrote:

Virtus wrote:

The flag system will be name tags.

Good and neutral players you will have to meet before a name tag appears over their head, good players will have green ones.

Evil, on the other hand, their name tags will always be displayed to everyone and in red.

So red players wont be able to hide in bushes?

*points up to his previous post*

Palo god
03-16-2010, 12:13 AM
Virtus wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Virtus wrote:

The flag system will be name tags.

Good and neutral players you will have to meet before a name tag appears over their head, good players will have green ones.

Evil, on the other hand, their name tags will always be displayed to everyone and in red.

So red players wont be able to hide in bushes?

*points up to his previous post*

I can't be damned to read every post.

Farmerbob
03-16-2010, 12:25 AM
Brando, you gave me a good idea, I think.

Make being red based on reputation, but only allow word to spread if someone witnesses you acting as a red - and lives... Require witnessing to take some sort of action, and require them to be within a certain range.

Unskilled red characters would pile up penalties.

Clever reds who leave few if any witnesses would only very slowly build penalties.

Do not allow people who are killed to be able to report you - they just do not remember well enough to convince anyone, though they can certainly know as a player...

How to penalize for being red?

Force logout and do not allow to log back in. The redder you are, the longer you have to wait before playing again.

Players would report to either NPC's, or perhaps to Mayors or even a bulletin board type item. (Xyson's Most Wanted, heh)

comestible
03-16-2010, 12:28 AM
Farmerbob wrote:

Brando, you gave me a good idea, I think.

Make being red based on reputation, but only allow word to spread if someone witnesses you acting as a red - and lives... Require witnessing to take some sort of action, and require them to be within a certain range.

Unskilled red characters would pile up penalties.

Clever reds who leave few if any witnesses would only very slowly build penalties.

Do not allow people who are killed to be able to report you - they just do not remember well enough to convince anyone, though they can certainly know as a player...

How to penalize for being red?

Force logout and do not allow to log back in. The redder you are, the longer you have to wait before playing again.

Players would report to either NPC's, or perhaps to Mayors or even a bulletin board type item. (Xyson's Most Wanted, heh)

There could be a whole skill set based on sleuthing. Find the culprit and the spirits rest in peace after due karma has been brought to the surface.

Farmerbob
03-16-2010, 12:34 AM
Hrm, sleuthing, will there be tracking in the game? With a high enough skill, might someone be able to identify the player who left prints? Would a good tracker be able to hide their own prints or make it more difficult for others to identify them? I can see a few interesting possibilities if so.

JCatano
03-16-2010, 02:43 AM
Farmerbob wrote:

Brando, you gave me a good idea, I think.

Make being red based on reputation, but only allow word to spread if someone witnesses you acting as a red - and lives... Require witnessing to take some sort of action, and require them to be within a certain range.

Unskilled red characters would pile up penalties.

Clever reds who leave few if any witnesses would only very slowly build penalties.

Do not allow people who are killed to be able to report you - they just do not remember well enough to convince anyone, though they can certainly know as a player...

How to penalize for being red?

Force logout and do not allow to log back in. The redder you are, the longer you have to wait before playing again.

Players would report to either NPC's, or perhaps to Mayors or even a bulletin board type item. (Xyson's Most Wanted, heh)

That would never, ever fly.

The only fair thing would be for a red to be able to hold you hostage. The time he holds you hostage is the time you are not allowed to login after your next sign-in attempt.

:huh:

Teotwauki
03-16-2010, 04:22 AM
I think he was joking...

Question, I;m still not sure about this...

Is everyone open PK, if I'm evil, can I kill anyone, and if I'm neutral/good can I kill all evil people?

I think there will be quite a few "good" gank squads running around killing everyone who is evil.

warzenkai
03-16-2010, 04:42 AM
Teotwauki wrote:

I think he was joking...

Question, I;m still not sure about this...

Is everyone open PK, if I'm evil, can I kill anyone, and if I'm neutral/good can I kill all evil people?

I think there will be quite a few "good" gank squads running around killing everyone who is evil.



You will be my first victim that i will abuse

Lily
03-16-2010, 07:02 AM
warzenkai wrote:


You will be my first victim that i will abuse

You'd better be able to look after yourself in game, as you're rapidly climbing to the top of people's kill lists. Even mine.

Virtus
03-16-2010, 10:07 AM
alrighty so...when a evil person is hidden, so is the name tag, just confirmed :)

Lily
03-16-2010, 10:24 AM
Well that's nice to know - not a lot of point hiding if you have a big "he's here" sign hovering above your head. :cheer:

Reynolds
03-16-2010, 10:26 AM
Virtus wrote:

alrighty so...when a evil person is hidden, so is the name tag, just confirmed :)

Er, what if a non evil person is hidden? We get the neon arrow of death above us?

Virtus
03-16-2010, 10:28 AM
...same goes for both sides...I didn't mention good because this is a topic for evil.

Right now 5 kills make you evil.

Zeno
03-16-2010, 10:52 AM
Right now 5 kills make you evil.

Will time or some atonement reduce your kills in that you may become neutral again?

Virtus
03-16-2010, 10:57 AM
that is to say there is no repent system.
and there will be good deeds but they do not +rep as much as bad deeds -rep

Cradlejoe
03-16-2010, 10:59 AM
Virtus wrote:

alrighty so...when a evil person is hidden, so is the name tag, just confirmed :)

What is classed as hidden?

Virtus
03-16-2010, 11:01 AM
not being seen

Cradlejoe
03-16-2010, 11:06 AM
As in people need to mouse over you or you can be close to them just sat behind a rock?

Virtus
03-16-2010, 11:07 AM
lol sorry, I couldn't resist that.

No clue to that answer, don't want to bug Jooky to much else you won't be playing till April :-P

Cradlejoe
03-16-2010, 11:11 AM
Virtus wrote:

lol sorry, I couldn't resist that.

No clue to that answer, don't want to bug Jooky to much else you won't be playing till April :-P

Ah fair enough man, well they took into consideration the communities views on combat so hopefully if there is uproar about reds having constant silly floating names they will do something about it.

Reynolds
03-16-2010, 11:43 AM
I assume it means hidden as in successfully passed a hide skill check.

As for the +rep being harder to collect than the -rep that sounds realistic and reasonable. I hope there isn't a cap (or at least if there is a cap it's big) on the amount of -rep you can collect.

TangerineSky
03-16-2010, 12:10 PM
Reynolds wrote:

I assume it means hidden as in successfully passed a hide skill check.

As for the +rep being harder to collect than the -rep that sounds realistic and reasonable. I hope there isn't a cap (or at least if there is a cap it's big) on the amount of -rep you can collect.There should be a cap. Or else you will have people farming for rep and then go kill crazy. There needs to be a cap to maintain balance.

MrDDT
03-16-2010, 12:11 PM
TangerineSky wrote:

Reynolds wrote:

I assume it means hidden as in successfully passed a hide skill check.

As for the +rep being harder to collect than the -rep that sounds realistic and reasonable. I hope there isn't a cap (or at least if there is a cap it's big) on the amount of -rep you can collect.There should be a cap. Or else you will have people farming for rep and then go kill crazy. There needs to be a cap to maintain balance.

I think the cap is 5kills.

Virtus
03-16-2010, 12:13 PM
5 kills will make you evil no matter what

Sophist
03-16-2010, 12:13 PM
Is the cap 5 kills? I thought that would just be the minimum required to be a murderer.

Virtus
03-16-2010, 12:19 PM
to be evil, yes it's the min

brando
03-16-2010, 12:39 PM
Since the horse still has life left in him; If I kill 5 evil people does that make me evil as well or do you gain +rep for killing them? In that case can I gain +rep as an evil person for killing other evil people or evil is permanent like you said earlier and no matter how many evil people you kill you're still evil?

I think I've met my quota of saying evil in a post today.

MrDDT
03-16-2010, 12:55 PM
brando wrote:

Since the horse still has life left in him; If I kill 5 evil people does that make me evil as well or do you gain +rep for killing them? In that case can I gain +rep as an evil person for killing other evil people or evil is permanent like you said earlier and no matter how many evil people you kill you're still evil?

I think I've met my quota of saying evil in a post today.

Nothing bad happens if you kill Evils, only if you are killing neut/good people.

brando
03-16-2010, 12:58 PM
As a good person do I get rep for killing evil people?

Virtus
03-16-2010, 12:58 PM
/me points to DDt's post

HamsterofDoom
03-16-2010, 03:36 PM
I think there should be a LONG hour count to work off murders. Sometimes "good/neutral" people need to be killed and accidents can happen. :(

JCatano
03-16-2010, 04:39 PM
Virtus wrote:

alrighty so...when a evil person is hidden, so is the name tag, just confirmed :)

So, "stealth" or "camo" has to be used in order for the tag not to be seen?

Don't be afraid to take good ideas from other games. The only time you should see a tag is when you mouse over another player within a certain distance. Good, neutral, evil... Any type of player.

This helps with screen clutter, but more importantly... Immersion.

Virtus
03-16-2010, 04:42 PM
Virtus wrote:

lol sorry, I couldn't resist that.

No clue to that answer, don't want to bug Jooky to much else you won't be playing till April :-P

JCatano
03-16-2010, 04:45 PM
It was a rhetorical question.

Farmerbob
03-16-2010, 11:09 PM
There really needs to be a way to redeem killing of "good" players.

In Wurm Online, a game much like this one looks like it will be, there have been issues with alignment during various changes to the alignment and reputation systems over the years. In a pvp environment, there will be spies and subverters. Evil characters WILL have good alts.

The "good" alts might be used to gain access to a town, then cause harm by stealing, destroying infrastructure, opening holes in defenses, etc. The natural inclination of fellow townsfolk will be to kill them. If there is no game mechanic to fairly rapidly recover good standings after killing spies, staying good will mean simply allowing the "good" alts of evil players to cause absurd amounts of problems.

As a suggestion: Mayors of good or neutral towns should be allowed to pardon their townsfolk for killing other townsfolk from the same village. The problem with this is that if a mayor goes on vacation in RL, his good or neutral town might be significantly incapacitated if critical players end up going evil before he can pardon them.

Ideally, alignment penalties for killing fellow village mates should be deferred for a significant time. The mayor could be given up to 2 weeks to make a ruling on a player's actions, whether to pardon or punish. If no ruling within 2 weeks, the default would be that the character's actions are considered unwarranted, and the evil counter is ticked up.

Please remember that there must be a way to deal with spies and sabateurs. Don't force the good and neutral players to become evil just to protect themselves from spies.

Persha
03-03-2011, 10:19 AM
If Xsyon is true to the real world in some ways then shouldn't it be true to the fact that walking down the road you can not tell if someone is good or bad just by looking at them?
Then shouldn't the same be true here?
The battle of good and evil is as old as dirt, but to be clear and honest no war or battle ever faught was done so with floating red or black text above someones head and no bad person ever had "BAD MAN OR WOMAN" above thier heads..
If so, there would not be 1/2 the crime, violance or abuse in the real world.

Now then, That being said... this is not Real life.. it is a simulation of it..
So, why not allow names to be red or black etc?

Anyways, perfection is in the eye of the creator and we are mearly players in his world...
We can offer thoughts and feelings but in the end it is the creators, developers etc who will make it come to life.
In the time till then.. i'll just be a willing particapent in this amazing and thought provoking world we have.

NexAnima
03-03-2011, 01:13 PM
If Xsyon is true to the real world in some ways then shouldn't it be true to the fact that walking down the road you can not tell if someone is good or bad just by looking at them?
Then shouldn't the same be true here?
The battle of good and evil is as old as dirt, but to be clear and honest no war or battle ever faught was done so with floating red or black text above someones head and no bad person ever had "BAD MAN OR WOMAN" above thier heads..
If so, there would not be 1/2 the crime, violance or abuse in the real world.

Now then, That being said... this is not Real life.. it is a simulation of it..
So, why not allow names to be red or black etc?

Anyways, perfection is in the eye of the creator and we are mearly players in his world...
We can offer thoughts and feelings but in the end it is the creators, developers etc who will make it come to life.
In the time till then.. i'll just be a willing particapent in this amazing and thought provoking world we have.

The real world, has law, prisons and death. Which keeps 90% of the population from dissolving into complete chaos...

Persha
03-03-2011, 04:49 PM
The real world, has law, prisons and death. Which keeps 90% of the population from dissolving into complete chaos...

same thing i'm saying lol