Comprehensive Guide: What FFA PvP really means!

[Mystais]

This is from a site from a guild I belonged to during Shadowbane's hay day (Kill Cult) *salute*

Great information and words to live by (and die by):
(Note: This is a copy/paste from another site as is and not my grammar or spelling.)
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I'm posting it here for those we are new to FFA pvp to give them a general idea of what to expect. Its been about 4 years since a good FFA game has come out. So a lot of us are rusty.

Another thing... following these guidelines can greatly ease your game play on these servers, and might help many of you anti-ffa type folks find a home.

First off you should probably read these two articles to get yourself familiar with what to expect, and to see what to look forward to.

UO event
AC event

For those who have never played on a FFA server there are a few things you need to understand before you even create a character.

#1 Your going to die, and your going to die often.

This is the cardinal rule to think about on a PvP server. No matter how good you are, how big your guild is, or how much money you buy off ebay there will always be someone bigger, better, faster, richer, quicker, and more ruthless.

Dont get frustrated when you die. Try and learn what you can, and remember who and what killed you. If it was a cheap shot, make sure to return the favor.

#2 People will kill you for no reason or provocation.

There are people on this server who will kill you for no other reason than the sounds you make when they poke you with sharp sticks. Asking why?, How come?, Im just questing cant you leave me alone? are all wastes of your time and will invite more kills.

If someone's tormenting you the best thing you can do is keep your mouth shut. The less entertainment you give them, the less likely they are to continue.

#3 It will not be fair, even, or sportsman like.

If your looking for fair fights stay in town and do the PvP minigames. People will wait till you have pulled, will wait till your low life, will wait till your fighting 2 other people, and any other advantage they can come up with. Expect to be robbed of kills, blindsided and suckered.


#4 Should you win a fight, expect to be trash talked, accused of cheating, called names.

Any time you lose its almost a cardinal rule that the person who beat you didnt play fair. Even if it was a 1 on 1 it was probably lag! ...yeah...right.

Dont expect any congratulations or GF man's when you win. Occasionally it will happen (when it does remember them!), but more often than not the 12yr old you just owned is going to call you names, insult your mother, threaten you, and maybe even report you. Ignore it and walk away.

Just remember who said what, and if you see them again, pop em again. Nothing is more satisfying then having someone trash talk you for an hour only to kill them again and have them go nuts.

The more they trash talk you, the harder you killed them. This is the only kind of fame you can expect.

#5 Anything you do in regards to pvp, guilds, etc will become part of your toon.

If your a Random PK then there will be folks who respect you and folks who hate you. You can change your playstyle... but there will be folks who wont let you or wont forget.

Therefore think carefully on how you wish to play and who you wish to group / guild with. Your guild's reputation is automatically added to yours. So if your a level 20 in a level 80 guild who kills lowbies... your going to have an extremely hard time leveling. Anyone your guild kills will take the opportunity to get back at you.

If someone kills you and says thats cause your guild ganked me... just understand this is the negative side to what ever positives your guild gives you.

You should always way the positives with the negatives from your guild. Are they going to help you level and make your playing time more fun? or are they going to just get you killed over and over.

#6 Keep a list of people and guilds who screw you over.

This way later you can exact revenge, or know who to associate with and help and who to kill and maim. Online games are great for karma. You might get killed by BoB at level 12, only to find BoB at 10 hp later that day after he has pulled to many mobs. If you have his name written down or his guild... thats your time to strike back. You can rest assured he will do it to you.

Revenge in a FFA pvp environment is what many would consider the best part of the game. Its a riot to have the guy who tormented you endlessly as you leveled up submit an application to your guild. Always remember who your friends and enemies are.


#7 Main quest lines and population centers are bad news. Anywhere there are people there will be gankers.

That quest line might have a nice exp reward... but how long will it take you to accomplish with the 500 other people trying to do the same thing. If you hang around trade and quest hubs your going to attract attention.

If you must quest make suer you group up with guildmates or friends. There is definitely strength in numbers. They might not think twice about attacking you solo, but if your rolling with six friends, they might hesitate.


#8 Friends, friends, friends. Meet people and make friends.

If you see a newbie being chased by someone 10 levels higher, help out. You never know who that person might be and what they might do for you later. Notice... I didnt say help the newbie out.

If you help the newbie, you may have a friend for life, the newbie could be a powerful guild leader on the server, or just some random guy. If he sticks with it, he might return the favor one day.

If you help the ganker he might appreciate it and his group of buddies might think twice about killing you the next time...however, he might turn immediately around and gank you next. This isnt fair... see rule #3

Friends in pvp games are exponentially more important than on a pve server. With them quests and such are much easier and groups are always harder to kill than solos.

#9 Lowbies can be threats
If your pulling mobs that get you low HP dont ignore that lowbie nearby. He might be 10 levels lower than you... but if you have 50 hp your an easy kill.

Just because they look weak doesnt mean they arent a threat.

#10 Dont trash talk when you die.

If some band of roving murderers wipes you out, keep your yap shut. Your more liable to be left alone if you "loot and scoot" than if you tell them all the wonderful things you want to do to their mom.

If you anger a ganker he might take you up as his pet griefing project and thats rarely fun for anyone. If someone does start harassing you get some friends!

#11 Stay aware of your surroundings.

When fighting always pan your camera around. If a spot looks like a good hiding spot check it. You never know who might be waiting around for you to get low hp and pounce.

Try and stay moving, this will make stealthers have a harder time setting up on you.

ALWAYS have an escape plan ready. A hill to run and hide behind, a river to swim under, whatever. If you spot the targets before they spot you, you might just be able to get away.

#12 There are two types of players in FFA. The Screwer and The Screwee

In any conflict there is the Victim and the perp. Its much more fun to be the guy inflicting pain than the one receiving it. Keep this in mind. You might not want to kill the group thats moving in on your spawn... but if you dont... they might just kill you.

#13 DONT hesitate.

If you think someone is a threat, dont think twice. Kill them. Its better to be safe than sorry, than to be dead and kicking yourself.

Anyone standing in your vicinity facing you and not doing anything is a threat. If they are AFK... not your problem. But you leave them standing there and they melt your face while your fighting 3 mobs... well your not going to be happy.


#14 Dont get frustrated.

If things start to get heated, take a break, walk out side, kick a puppy, whatever you gotta do to vent. FFA servers are different than any other server type you may have played on.

It takes a special kind of person to be able to play on them. Main thing is keep your head, stay cool, keep your goals clear and in reach, and you will make it just fine.

#15 People you kill / Who kill you can turn into friends.

I cant tell you how many times the people I killed, or who killed me, became my new buddies. Instead of trash talking, take the time to say good fight, ask them if there was something you could have done to increase your chances, and just in general be friendly.

Occasionally you will get an asshat who is just going to mock you... but the majority of us are just like you. Getting tips from people who fought you is the best way to learn and a damn good way to make friends.

People your chatting with and being friendly with are less likely to kill you.

#16 Trust no one outside of guild or RL friends.

I cant stress this enough. If someone is being nice to you... there may be a reason behind it. Dont trust anyone right off the bat... test them slowly over a period of time. Its best to find a good guild as soon as possible that way you can have a pool of folks to help you that you can trust.

#17 DO NOT transfer money, items, etc to someone you dont know.

People will take your stuff. I REPEAT people WILL take your stuff. Only have extremely trusted guild mates transfer your stuff for you.

#18 Anything on a pvp server takes longer

Dont expect to quest easily here or to grind to 80 quickly. Any time you go to turn in a quest your going to die, most likely several times. Any time you go to get a quest your going to die, most likely several times. Once you find your quest area... you get the idea. There will be lots of dying.

Leveling on a pvp server can take as long as 10x a normal server or more if your solo. Find a group or guild, make friends, and play with the same people as often as you can, this will help you level significantly faster.

#19 There is always one more(or 12 more)

Never forget that just because you think Bob is all alone and an easy kill, doesnt mean that all 40 of his friends arent closing in on you the second you engage. If you kill a target heal up and get moving. In the days of voice communication friends are just a click away, and if you have been active in an area, its highly possible folks are hunting you.

Also, anyone can attack you here at any time. There are no time outs, no half times, nowater breaks. Kill your targets, clean your blades, and be ready for the next one, it could be sooner than you expect.

#20 Post look outs

If your grinding away with your group its pretty easy to lose track of your surroundings and get tunnel vision. Its a good practice to leave one guy to keep an eye out for people sneaking up on you. Make sure his view distance is as far as he can handle... many times if your clipping plane is way out there you can spot a threat before it spots you.

Mindlessly grinding away is no fun... getting ganked cause you were in the zone and not paying attention is even less fun.

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Also an addition for Xsyon:

#21 Don't leave your safezone with any equipment/tools you do not absolutely need.

#22 Anything of value you acquire while out of your safezone (from foraging, harvesting, fishing, hunting, looting, etc)... head back and store immediately.

[jokhul]

Solid gold !

[MrKrueak]

i guess it is a good thing that pvp is not the main focus for xsyon

[Mystais]

i guess it is a good thing that pvp is not the main focus for xsyon

During Prelude? Yes you are correct sir.

[MrKrueak]

During Prelude? Yes you are correct sir.

yep during prelude, but this prelude will weed out most but not all of the pker's that are here just for the thrill, in 6 to 9 months those will have moved on to something more of their liking while the ones that are here for the tribal warfare/politics etc will stick around.

[Bridger]

yep during prelude, but this prelude will weed out most but not all of the pker's that are here just for the thrill, in 6 to 9 months those will have moved on to something more of their liking while the ones that are here for the tribal warfare/politics etc will stick around.

That's my profound hope!

[Mystais]

The way I see it is Prelude is just that, a prelude to what is to be the beginning. In games like DF there are already cities with merchants to buy and sell and store items at. That game released at their beginning... there was no prelude.

In Xsyon these 'cities' are to exist as well but will be created by players and not be npc cities created at the start (beginning). Unless folks want no merchants or storage or cities at all, perhaps they should allow players their Prelude to create such 'cities' and such. Then after Prelude there will be things worth fighting over when the 'game' actually begins... after the Prelude.

We are creating what is normally created by the developers in other games but our 'cities' will be living and breathing with player characters, not npcs.

[Bridger]

Mystais,

I'm sure that's part of what Prelude is. But the features list and developer statements make clear that it's also a 'Prelude' to some significant - perhaps even fundamental - changes in the mechanics of how the 'world' work. It's not just a 'prelude' to a world where the infrastructure has been established.

[MrKrueak]

The way I see it is Prelude is just that, a prelude to what is to be the beginning. In games like DF there are already cities with merchants to buy and sell and store items at. That game released at their beginning... there was no prelude.

In Xsyon these 'cities' are to exist as well but will be created by players and not be npc cities created at the start (beginning). Unless folks want no merchants or storage or cities at all, perhaps they should allow players their Prelude to create such 'cities' and such. Then after Prelude there will be things worth fighting over when the 'game' actually begins... after the Prelude.

We are creating what is normally created by the developers in other games but our 'cities' will be living and breathing with player characters, not npcs.

exactly i believe that is the whole point of prelude from everything i've seen.

[BigCountry]

Good post. I remember reading it when SB came out.

[Mystais]

Mystais,

I'm sure that's part of what Prelude is. But the features list and developer statements make clear that it's also a 'Prelude' to some significant - perhaps even fundamental - changes in the mechanics of how the 'world' work. It's not just a 'prelude' to a world where the infrastructure has been established.

I agree. I never meant to say that my thoughts on the Prelude were to be taken as the only purpose for Prelude but I do honestly feel it is a sizable portion of that purpose.

[fflhktsn]

FFA PvP means non consensual PVP. its a free for all in the world.

No arena pvp here (which is consensual and fair)

Adapt or struggle...simple as that

[Mystais]

FFA PvP means non consensual PVP. its a free for all in the world.

No arena pvp here (which is consensual and fair)

Adapt or struggle...simple as that

Don't think that just because someone is against griefing that they are against good ol' pvp. I'll spend all weekend hunting a griefer but I'll just leave the crafters alone. There are lions... then there are skulking opportunistic jackals. We need more lions and less jackals.

[MrKrueak]

Don't think that just because someone is against griefing that they are against good ol' pvp. I'll spend all weekend hunting a griefer but I'll just leave the crafters alone. There are lions... then there are skulking opportunistic jackals. We need more lions and less jackals.

i was planning on being a crafter but after the past few days i think i'm gonna roll combat now and do as you describe and go after the guys camping spawn points especially at the beginning and once all then adolescents are gone the reroll a crafter. It won't hurt me to be late in the crafting game was planning to be a sort of hermit anyways moving from location to location every once in awhile.

[orious13]

lol... on 13 when I first started this game. I saw a dude after a few weeks at a trash pile I've had alone for days. I had my weapons out ready to attack, but I started with "Hey dude, what's up!?". No bloodshed, but we became friends. Primarily because being solo is going to be difficult.

This community is much more friendly than the usual crowd...which is more realistic imo. In the real world you aren't going to kill someone unless you have a reason to.

But take that with a grain of salt because losing the element of surprise as I did is grounds for putting you into a fair fight and not necessarily a sure survival. I'm not afraid to take those odds, but if you're really connected to your pixels you might just have to KoS. It's more realistic to do anything to survive than to play fair in real life permadeath mode.

[fflhktsn]

Don't think that just because someone is against griefing that they are against good ol' pvp. I'll spend all weekend hunting a griefer but I'll just leave the crafters alone. There are lions... then there are skulking opportunistic jackals. We need more lions and less jackals.

If you are getting griefed you are doing something wrong.

Ok i get protecting people when the log in.... how long would it take someone to get situated upon logging in...15min...1hr....give em noob protection for 1hr then. Give them a chance to learn how to walk, and set a totem...whatever

Beyond that, theres no static and campable respawns. You have a very generous ghost form in which you can sprint the eintire time with no energy penalty, unseen.
You also have a chat, that can be used while dead...you do have friends that can assist you right?

You can learn to either come back with more people, learn to find a new spot, bribe the attacker, or you can tear up and run to a GM for assistance like a bitch.

In this game it would be VERY hard to actually grief someone who was taking measures to avoid it...very difficult. Most of the griefing accusations ive seen come from people that say "you cant make me do anything" and "you dont own this spot" in which i reply..."yes, i am in fact making you leave" and "untill otherwise proven i DO own this spot"

However they refuse to adapt and go straight for the GM, rather than ask the community or take a diffrent route to obtaining what they want..


Griefing has never been an issue in game...ever. There are a very few amount of combat evil players (since going combat forces you to be evil to progress which is a flaw in the game design) So you logged in and lost your tools....learn from it, or just keep rerolling and spawning in the same spot that you know for a fact that a ganker is, and dont bother to inform anyone about it so they can continue....people...i swear...wow has rotted their brains....

[Mystais]

If you are getting griefed you are doing something wrong.

Ok i get protecting people when the log in.... how long would it take someone to get situated upon logging in...15min...1hr....give em noob protection for 1hr then. Give them a chance to learn how to walk, and set a totem...whatever

Beyond that, theres no static and campable respawns. You have a very generous ghost form in which you can sprint the eintire time with no energy penalty, unseen.
You also have a chat, that can be used while dead...you do have friends that can assist you right?

You can learn to either come back with more people, learn to find a new spot, bribe the attacker, or you can tear up and run to a GM for assistance like a bitch.

In this game it would be VERY hard to actually grief someone who was taking measures to avoid it...very difficult. Most of the griefing accusations ive seen come from people that say "you cant make me do anything" and "you dont own this spot" in which i reply..."yes, i am in fact making you leave" and "untill otherwise proven i DO own this spot"

However they refuse to adapt and go straight for the GM, rather than ask the community or take a diffrent route to obtaining what they want..


Griefing has never been an issue in game...ever. There are a very few amount of combat evil players (since going combat forces you to be evil to progress which is a flaw in the game design) So you logged in and lost your tools....learn from it, or just keep rerolling and spawning in the same spot that you know for a fact that a ganker is, and dont bother to inform anyone about it so they can continue....people...i swear...wow has rotted their brains....

I agree with everything you've said with one exception to "In this game it would be VERY hard to actually grief someone who was taking measures to avoid it"... it is hard to avoid it when you are logging into the game with a new character and you appear in game, and can be attacked, seconds before you can actually see and move.

But this will probably not be much of an issue after the initial surge once the servers come up for good... "Go time".

[PeonSanders911]

Fellow Sber here....and I couldnt agree more with your post.

Read it...
Learn it...
Love it...
Live it...

I would add #23 You never know what someone is carrying ( regardless of level ) until you kill them and look in their pack.

[Mims44]

I agree with everything you've said with one exception to "In this game it would be VERY hard to actually grief someone who was taking measures to avoid it"... it is hard to avoid it when you are logging into the game with a new character and you appear in game, and can be attacked, seconds before you can actually see and move.

But this will probably not be much of an issue after the initial surge once the servers come up for good... "Go time".

If you didn't drop starter equipment then that wouldn't be a problem. or the timed newb safe thing someone brought up.

[randomt]

My view is: someone who goes around killing everyone just for the hell of it is no different than someone who actually goes around killing people, in real life. Serial killers and whatever.. Mental issues. Serious ones. Get yourself checked by a shrink man.

[Mims44]

By the way, little off topic.

Why did SB fail?
I know they failed to keep alot of starting players, AC darktide subs were leaving en masse for SB because it was supposed to be the next big PK thing... few months later most we're comming back complaining about this or that lol.

[Mystais]

If you didn't drop starter equipment then that wouldn't be a problem. or the timed newb safe thing someone brought up.

They'd still do it just to inconvenience you.

@Mims44
Tons of bugs that never got fixed, lag and server crashes in large battles, zerg guilds taking over entire servers, etc.

[randomt]

By the way, little off topic.

Why did SB fail?
I know they failed to keep alot of starting players, AC darktide subs were leaving en masse for SB because it was supposed to be the next big PK thing... few months later most we're comming back complaining about this or that lol.


In my opinion, these kinds of games usually "fail" because the deathmatch player PKers chase all of the actual mmo players out, and then there's no population and nothing left to do but kill the same 2 people over and over.. Zzz. Why game devs don't "get" this and keep making those kinds of games, just to go broke and have to shutdown.. yea. Crazy.

But that's just my opinion.. who knows if that's reality.


They'd still do it just to inconvenience you.



Exactly.. refer to my point about psychological and very anti-social issues. The justification of "it's just a game!" is irrelevant, these people are out to hurt others, period. Shrink time!

[Mims44]

In my opinion, these kinds of games usually "fail" because the deathmatch player PKers chase all of the actual mmo players out, and then there's no population and nothing left to do but kill the same 2 people over and over.. Zzz. Why game devs don't "get" this and keep making those kinds of games, just to go broke and have to shutdown.. yea. Crazy.

But that's just my opinion.. who knows if that's reality.



Exactly.. refer to my point about psychological and very anti-social issues. The justification of "it's just a game!" is irrelevant, these people are out to hurt others, period. Shrink time!


I'd have to disagree, AC was a very harsh enviroment thats been going for over 10 years now, and even though subs aren't where they were for the first 5 years there is still decent traffic. It's a matter of game companies so focused on PK that they forget all the other important things that make an MMO.

Recent games may have made people lose hope, but a great PvP/PvE combo can be done.... hopefully it's this one.

[Toughluck]

Another whining PVP-centric post. Give it up. This is not going to happen like it did in DFO and MO. Niche games with few players - they are useless games - Log on for meaningless PVP - get bored from the grind - Log off. No depth. No fun except for the very small PVP crowd that still plays them. Xsyon is not that game and no matter how posts you make it is not going to happen. Wishful thinking on your part.

[Bridger]

Mystais,

For what it's worth, I also profoundly hope your vision of PvP is realized.

I'm not a PvP-er. I'm not good at it and I get little entertainment out of it. (And no, I'm not ashamed of my inability to kill pixels in a video game. There was a time in my life when I was fairly proficient at real world 'PvP' so I have nothing to prove to anyone now.) But an MMO without the kind of competition and 'obstacles' to what I do enjoy doing would lessen that enjoyment for me. I want the weapons I craft to have a real purpose. I want the walls I build to actually protect my friends and to force my enemies to think and cooperate and strategize. I want the things I contribute to be genuine obstacles to my enemies.

If that's what PvP in Xsyon can be, then by all means... 'Bring it!'

[tilla]

Oh look another useless FFA PvPer post :D

[fflhktsn]

This notion that pve and pvp cannot coexist is why games fail, take off the blinders please.

SB didnt fail, it had a long life and was pretty popular. DF didnt fail (mabey the EU server is) AV would never have been able to afford a new HQ and an animation studio if it had. Failed mmorpgs lead to bankrupt companies, successful mmorpgs might get shut down when the become less than profitable, but as long as a good amount of money had been made, it was a success.

MO is failing, however its in the same state as this game is currently, and is very simialir, so id be careful about such labels.

The pvp crowd in some of these games might chase away the pve crowd, simply because the pve crowd doesnt want to play the game..they are not Real players and pvp players are fake, its just that the pve crowd wants arena consentual pvp in a game that isnt about consentual pvp. Just like this game.

Perhaps it was a huge mistake for NG to try open full loot pvp given how the game is so full of pve players so terrified of what COULD happen, and horrifed at the loss of easily replacable pixes. Makes me laugh.

[BigCountry]

x2 SB did not fail. Like ff said it had a very long lift.

They could of extended the live cycle by wiping the servers more often however. Once these online worlds get built, and winners are unofficially declared, that's when you should wipe the servers. If not, it just gets stagnant and people get bored and less motivated to play. That's just the kind of game it was.

[Mystais]

Well hopefully a mix is implemented so both pve and pvp can coexist and both can enjoy the game in their own ways. Yes sacrifices will have to be made on both sides to better ensure the most possible enjoyment for both sides. I doubt the developers intend on implementing any system that will outright scare off half the population in one fell swoop.

Funny thing is so many pvpers need pvers in their game in order to have fun (prey/fodder). It is NOT the other way around. Look at the mmorpg market today ... all of the vastly successful mmorpgs are pve-centric. Pve is surely a safe bet... mixing them is a gamble. Probably not a good idea to force a developer to make a hard choice, one or the other, for the sake of their game's survival, as pve would probably win.

[Asmodeous]

I would put forth the suggestion (btw, all good tips on the OP, english was fail though) that the optimal loadout is the EVE manner. Zoning areas, but with flag options (wardecs and such). It gives everyone their own place in the sandbox, and keeps the true Carebears (not the people that like to have a purpose for PvP, but like the risk of PvP in the game, which is the vast majority of players, but real and true Carebears that rage about PvP all the time), happy so they continue to play.

Contrary to what the pro-PvP everywhere types would like to believe, Carebears are the core of every MMO, because they are the ones that primarily hold all the manufacture and keep the economy stable.

That's not to say that PvP should not be around, people like PvP. I, personally, don't often choose to PvP but get bored quickly of an MMO if the risk of PvP isn't there (I lived my entire four years of life in EVE in lowsec or nullsec. I preferred lowsec because, quite frankly, it was a lot more dangerous). However that there should be small safe zones that the Carebears can hang out in and have their fun is, in my mind, a clear and obvious thing.

Once the Carebears leave, the game begins to die. It's an inevitability.

That said, assuming some sort of safe zone, there should be no direct access to the better grade of materials for construction there, they should, like in EVE, either have to risk the wilds to get them, or pay people to risk the wilds for them. It makes for a solid economy that way.

Further, such forced segregation of risk levels makes it much easier for developers to tweak the risk/reward ratio to the satisfaction of the players, enticing players to leave the safety of freedom for the dangers of the world. It really just ends up working out for everyone in the long run.

[randomt]

Exacly! Why isn't the EvE model ever used on land based mmos? If an area is "civilised", why is it still completely unsafe in most mmos?

In Xsyon, perhaps the radius of large settlements could spread a guarded 'semi-safe' zone around the Lake, and deeper in, and beyond the mist would be the true wilderness where anything goes, where Tribes who like to live on the edge can settle and duke it out in the typical "neutral criminal guild" fashion, the players who like it safer can stay in the smaller current area doing their thing, with traders dotting the borders passing goods to and from the wilds (which would have harder to get stuff available). Think of the potential of that, both in game content and sociopolitical systems, and in population growth..

[Mystais]

@Asmodeous: Well written and excellent points! (Oh and the original article was a copy/paste from another site, not my grammar and spelling.)

[Toughluck]

Most players would be happy with zones. Safe tribal areas for the non PVP crowd and areas of increased risk providing better resources - fair enough. Meaningless and endless PVP with open griefing equals just another small failed release. A few thousand DFO players and few hundred MO players does not make for a successful mainstream game. Last time I hopped into MO it was dead. A non existant economy. Empty cities - not much of a community. I gave up on DFO ages ago. Community sucked. Another FFA PVP full loot no safe zones game means nothing more than a niche/fringe game.

[Asmodeous]

@Asmodeous: (Oh and the original article was a copy/paste from another site, not my grammar and spelling.)

Hahaha. Yeah, it's readily apparent you didn't write it, don't worry about that. ;)

[Doc]

I would put forth the suggestion (btw, all good tips on the OP, english was fail though) that the optimal loadout is the EVE manner. Zoning areas, but with flag options (wardecs and such). It gives everyone their own place in the sandbox, and keeps the true Carebears (not the people that like to have a purpose for PvP, but like the risk of PvP in the game, which is the vast majority of players, but real and true Carebears that rage about PvP all the time), happy so they continue to play.

Contrary to what the pro-PvP everywhere types would like to believe, Carebears are the core of every MMO, because they are the ones that primarily hold all the manufacture and keep the economy stable.

That's not to say that PvP should not be around, people like PvP. I, personally, don't often choose to PvP but get bored quickly of an MMO if the risk of PvP isn't there (I lived my entire four years of life in EVE in lowsec or nullsec. I preferred lowsec because, quite frankly, it was a lot more dangerous). However that there should be small safe zones that the Carebears can hang out in and have their fun is, in my mind, a clear and obvious thing.

Once the Carebears leave, the game begins to die. It's an inevitability.

That said, assuming some sort of safe zone, there should be no direct access to the better grade of materials for construction there, they should, like in EVE, either have to risk the wilds to get them, or pay people to risk the wilds for them. It makes for a solid economy that way.

Further, such forced segregation of risk levels makes it much easier for developers to tweak the risk/reward ratio to the satisfaction of the players, enticing players to leave the safety of freedom for the dangers of the world. It really just ends up working out for everyone in the long run.

They dream of some sandbox wonderland that exists only in dreams and any attempt to crate it has failed miserably. So they go from game to game, ask to be created and to fail again. I asked them, how many more games need to fail before they get what vast majority got quite some time ago - it just doesnt work (CCP got it back in '03, well, when they started making it, so before '03)
EvE-like system could be implemented to Xsyon (i would say in one way it is implemented already, it just remains to be seen in which direction it evolves).
Wise man learns from past mistakes, stupid man repeats same mistake over and over again.

[ifireallymust]

There's nothing wrong with the content of the OP. Even though we have a small safe zone, we all go out in the world (or I do, anyway), and the basic advice is sound. I'm not a kill him before he kills me player, I like to go into hide mode and slip away if I see someone before they see me, but I stand a much better chance of doing that if I'm aware of my surroundings and panning the camera in the first place.

[bruisie159]

I would put forth the suggestion (btw, all good tips on the OP, english was fail though) that the optimal loadout is the EVE manner. Zoning areas, but with flag options (wardecs and such). It gives everyone their own place in the sandbox, and keeps the true Carebears (not the people that like to have a purpose for PvP, but like the risk of PvP in the game, which is the vast majority of players, but real and true Carebears that rage about PvP all the time), happy so they continue to play.

Contrary to what the pro-PvP everywhere types would like to believe, Carebears are the core of every MMO, because they are the ones that primarily hold all the manufacture and keep the economy stable.

That's not to say that PvP should not be around, people like PvP. I, personally, don't often choose to PvP but get bored quickly of an MMO if the risk of PvP isn't there (I lived my entire four years of life in EVE in lowsec or nullsec. I preferred lowsec because, quite frankly, it was a lot more dangerous). However that there should be small safe zones that the Carebears can hang out in and have their fun is, in my mind, a clear and obvious thing.

Once the Carebears leave, the game begins to die. It's an inevitability.

That said, assuming some sort of safe zone, there should be no direct access to the better grade of materials for construction there, they should, like in EVE, either have to risk the wilds to get them, or pay people to risk the wilds for them. It makes for a solid economy that way.

Further, such forced segregation of risk levels makes it much easier for developers to tweak the risk/reward ratio to the satisfaction of the players, enticing players to leave the safety of freedom for the dangers of the world. It really just ends up working out for everyone in the long run.

I agree the majority of players would be happy with this, its what ive been saying for weeks, you put it very well. Its just about balance, I think its more sandboxy to accomodate peoples gameplay choices it never did SWG any harm and they went even further with a flagging system. Personally i wouldnt want that here, maybe times have changed! Nothing wrong with allowing different play styles to prosper though. The all out pvp and no escaping it is desperatly flawed in so many ways and just alienates people as would the opposite - pve only. We dont need extremists but rather level headed moderate ideas that include a large part of the comminity that is looking for a game like this.

[Soulwanderer]

I don't get people saying "This isn't a PvP centric game, get used to it" and the like. It's open PvP minus some small territory around your totem (for now). So no matter how hard you cry about it in game or on the boards it isn't going to stop people from killing you. Whether you like it or not you're have to going to deal with PvP same as PvPers are going to have to deal with crafting. Take the advice above if you're not used to an open PvP game... or don't. I love the tears of the recently dead. >=)

[MrKrueak]

I don't get people saying "This isn't a PvP centric game, get used to it"

people are saying that because the developer himself has said that in interviews. he specifically says that xyson is about building the world and crafting and that PVP is not the driving force. IF it was pvp centric than it would be the driving force, you also would have the feature page devoted to pvp but it is devoted to everything else except for a couple lines for pvp. Once prelude is over than pvp becomes more centric as by that time there will have been the tribal seiges, combat mechanics implemented,

right now all there is to combat is point your character and press 1 or 2 how pvp centric is that?

[Dontaze_Mebro]

yep during prelude, but this prelude will weed out most but not all of the pker's that are here just for the thrill, in 6 to 9 months those will have moved on to something more of their liking while the ones that are here for the tribal warfare/politics etc will stick around.

What a cute little assumption.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

i bet you want be here after 1 month
Put your money where your mouth is.

[Dubanka]

people are saying that because the developer himself has said that in interviews. he specifically says that xyson is about building the world and crafting and that PVP is not the driving force. IF it was pvp centric than it would be the driving force, you also would have the feature page devoted to pvp but it is devoted to everything else except for a couple lines for pvp. Once prelude is over than pvp becomes more centric as by that time there will have been the tribal seiges, combat mechanics implemented,

right now all there is to combat is point your character and press 1 or 2 how pvp centric is that?

PVP isnot the focus. hmm.

Xsyon's primary game design element is economic...and economy of limited and depleting resources.
OK, so primary game element Economy. Check.

What happens when resources run out or get scarce? Competition. What is the inevitable result of competition? Conflict.
OK, so the secondary element is pvp.

So what is the underlying drives both the economy and the conflict?
Craft skills. They consume resources, which fuels the economy which creates conflict.

Now, you can rearrange these any way you want...really...but you don't have a 'game' if you eliminate one of them.

A pvp game without purpose, fails. For all the crying (some legit) about ganking, that's the lowest common denominator of pvp. Real pvp focuses on larger strategies and purpose, not just ganking some noob who loaded the game for th efirst time.
An economic game without conflict, or a mechanism to fuel the conflict is a friggin study course. plug in variables, watch what happens woo hoo great time.
a crafting game without the economic model or the pvp is just a simulation. How many people are actually going to play SimCraft for more than a month or two? probably not enough to pay the bills.

so, like it or not, we all need each other.

I think we all want this game to succeed...i think i can speak for the pvp crowd in that we need a game to play. everything else on the market has been found, played, and judged deeply flawed. If we're currently playing it's because we have no other recourse for for boredom. Obviously the pve crowd wnats something deeper WoW or WaR crafting...or even the Eve economic model (which is pretty substantial). There is nothing wrong with being 'neutral' and 'non violent'...altho the threat of overwhelming violence goes a long way to ensuring one's ability to play peacfully :)

anyway, pve and pvp can and should coexist...players just have to decide to make it happen.

and yes, i'm still going to kill when i see you scrounging junk because i want your hat.
and your shoes.
maybe your pants.

[MrKrueak]

Put your money where your mouth is.

what does my money have to do with anything? more likely will be an axe situation

[Dontaze_Mebro]

I wet the bed until recently

I love that story.

[Haphazard]

Excellent post Dubs. I think you hit the nail exactly on the head with why the "PVP" games out there are so boring and 1-dimensional. The PVP side just doesn't exist well without a well developed economic system and vice versa.

Yeah the current combat system is fairly undeveloped, especially when compared to other games out there. Strategy is going to be fairly rudimentary until they add in ranged combat and some type of magic/tactics system. But I still think we will see folks beating each other up up close and personal - especially as we fill up the prelude world and resources do truly become scarce.

[Dubanka]

you also wont be here after a few months

*shrug* unless the devs completely nerf pvp...unlikely.

but i've seen interest evaporate overnight when devs did stupid stuff before (Pirates of the Burning Sea for example)

if they hold true to their current vision, we'll probably be here for a very long time.

you'll have to be sure and send me your address so we can pay you a teepee warming visit.

we'll bring pie.

[ifireallymust]

PVP isnot the focus. hmm.

Xsyon's primary game design element is economic...and economy of limited and depleting resources.
OK, so primary game element Economy. Check.

What happens when resources run out or get scarce? Competition. What is the inevitable result of competition? Conflict.
OK, so the secondary element is pvp.

So what is the underlying drives both the economy and the conflict?
Craft skills. They consume resources, which fuels the economy which creates conflict.

Now, you can rearrange these any way you want...really...but you don't have a 'game' if you eliminate one of them.

A pvp game without purpose, fails. For all the crying (some legit) about ganking, that's the lowest common denominator of pvp. Real pvp focuses on larger strategies and purpose, not just ganking some noob who loaded the game for th efirst time.
An economic game without conflict, or a mechanism to fuel the conflict is a friggin study course. plug in variables, watch what happens woo hoo great time.
a crafting game without the economic model or the pvp is just a simulation. How many people are actually going to play SimCraft for more than a month or two? probably not enough to pay the bills.

so, like it or not, we all need each other.

I think we all want this game to succeed...i think i can speak for the pvp crowd in that we need a game to play. everything else on the market has been found, played, and judged deeply flawed. If we're currently playing it's because we have no other recourse for for boredom. Obviously the pve crowd wnats something deeper WoW or WaR crafting...or even the Eve economic model (which is pretty substantial). There is nothing wrong with being 'neutral' and 'non violent'...altho the threat of overwhelming violence goes a long way to ensuring one's ability to play peacfully :)

anyway, pve and pvp can and should coexist...players just have to decide to make it happen.

and yes, i'm still going to kill when i see you scrounging junk because i want your hat.
and your shoes.
maybe your pants.

A good post getting lost in a sea of troll.

[ModRamiel]

You two (MrKrueak and Dontaze_Mebro) need to both stop flaming and trolling each other immediately. I don't care who started what; neither of you have a right to be fighting on the public forums like this. Take it to a PM now.

[shadowlz]

Ban them. ;)

[billpaustin]

If your looking for fair fights stay in town and do the PvP minigames

This implies that towns are some kind of safe zone? Where you can choose to take minigames instead of PvP?

[ModRamiel]

I'll take care of the situation, don't worry about it.

[MrKrueak]

lol figured that was going to happen eventually. will shut up now about this whole debate all together.

[JCatano]

I'll take care of the situation, don't worry about it.

Do they get a free totem spot of their choice if they stop arguing?

[billpaustin]

deleted, sorry, double post

[ModRamiel]

Do they get a free totem spot of their choice if they stop arguing?

Not quite.

[shadowlz]

Do they get a free totem spot of their choice if they stop arguing?

Ramiel will find a very large rock and beat you with it if you keep that up. Also Virtus needs to fix the forum. Also fun thread, the OP that is not the flames.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Not quite.
I was given a magic belt that makes me completely invisible even while I am attacking.

[JCatano]

Not quite.

Not quite? That could be taken as getting something free.

[ifireallymust]

Not quite? That could be taken as getting something free.

Yeah, but who wants a free trip into some green mist?

[JCatano]

Yeah, but who wants a free trip into some green mist?

Hopi, so they can get a head start on another free spot!

[ifireallymust]

Is there any way we can all let this one drop until we find out what is going to happen? Even if it means waiting to find out until they launch on the new server?

Some of my first posts here were on this issue, if not my very first post. It definitely got my hackles up. Then again, I see the other side of it, too. I already said before I don't see the problem with huge tribes that have been in the same spot for awhile keeping those spots. There aren't that many really big tribes in the game that I've seen anyway, and there just aren't that many good areas for them to settle in, either. It might even be true that smaller tribes with a bone to pick would grief them deliberately by placing totems where they knew the large tribes intended to settle for no other reason than to inconvenience the large tribes.

It's of course not up to me one way or the other and I'm not going to ask about it anymore. The people with the answers are extremely overworked right now with more important issues to deal with and have done the best they could to answer this question already.

I also said before I didn't like the reasoning of at least one Hopi member on the issue, which seemed to have less to do with suitable locations for very large tribes than with beta seniority and community contribution. Though there is an argument that could be made on the contribution aspect, the suitable land area argument seems much fairier, and if action were to be taken based on that issue, I think the solution would be more limited and not abusable.

Again, none of which is up to me, none of which we need to be pestering the devs and guides about right now. You don't know me, so you have no idea how rare it is that I back down on any issue that touches in any way on 'fairness'. I'm a bulldog with a bad case of lockjaw when it comes to 'sticking up for the little guy', or in this case, 'sticking up for players who didn't start with day 1 of beta'. But these devs and guides have truly impressed me with their efforts to answer our questions and concerns and make this game unique and enjoyable for all of us and still true to their vision of it. They've even changed their original vision to make room for small tribes and solo players.

Sometimes, even I know when to let something go.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

It's your basic Internet dweller sense of entitlement. No one deserves any early claim to lands. Ooooh you played beta and gave bug reports. So what? I paid 40 dollars at a time that the game really needed the money so I deserve to have a reserved plot of land as well... Games that start showing favoritism do not keep their playerbase long once evidence leaks out as it always does.

[JCatano]

Is there any way we can all let this one drop until we find out what is going to happen? Even if it means waiting to find out until they launch on the new server?

Some of my first posts here were on this issue, if not my very first post. It definitely got my hackles up. Then again, I see the other side of it, too. I already said before I don't see the problem with huge tribes that have been in the same spot for awhile keeping those spots. There aren't that many really big tribes in the game that I've seen anyway, and there just aren't that many good areas for them to settle in, either. It might even be true that smaller tribes with a bone to pick would grief them deliberately by placing totems where they knew the large tribes intended to settle for no other reason than to inconvenience the large tribes.

It's of course not up to me one way or the other and I'm not going to ask about it anymore. The people with the answers are extremely overworked right now with more important issues to deal with and have done the best they could to answer this question already.

I also said before I didn't like the reasoning of at least one Hopi member on the issue, which seemed to have less to do with suitable locations for very large tribes than with beta seniority and community contribution. Though there is an argument that could be made on the contribution aspect, the suitable land area argument seems much fairier, and if action were to be taken based on that issue, I think the solution would be more limited and not abusable.

Again, none of which is up to me, none of which we need to be pestering the devs and guides about right now. You don't know me, so you have no idea how rare it is that I back down on any issue that touches in any way on 'fairness'. I'm a bulldog with a bad case of lockjaw when it comes to 'sticking up for the little guy', or in this case, 'sticking up for players who didn't start with day 1 of beta'. But these devs and guides have truly impressed me with their efforts to answer our questions and concerns and make this game unique and enjoyable for all of us and still true to their vision of it. They've even changed their original vision to make room for small tribes and solo players.

Sometimes, even I know when to let something go.

That was a long reply in reference to something said in jest.

"Hoppy"

[ifireallymust]

It's your basic Internet dweller sense of entitlement. No one deserves any early claim to lands. Ooooh you played beta and gave bug reports. So what? I paid 40 dollars at a time that the game really needed the money so I deserve to have a reserved plot of land as well... Games that start showing favoritism do not keep their playerbase long once evidence leaks out as it always does.

Okay, but: We have no idea if anything like this is going to happen. In fact, Xsyon said it will NOT happen and was no part of the totem restoration plan at all. So why keep going with it?

[furanku]

It's your basic Internet dweller sense of entitlement. No one deserves any early claim to lands. Ooooh you played beta and gave bug reports. So what? I paid 40 dollars at a time that the game really needed the money so I deserve to have a reserved plot of land as well... Games that start showing favoritism do not keep their playerbase long once evidence leaks out as it always does.

you can view more about that on the blog friend, hit my NewsPaper Ad at the bottom my sig for lots of interesting information about Xsyon and even ^_^ our lovely GM.

[Doc]

you can view more about that on the blog friend, hit my NewsPaper Ad at the bottom my sig for lots of interesting information about Xsyon and even ^_^ our lovely GM.

Oh, you mean you propaganda joke of blog? Anyone with 2 braincells left can see through that, its...well...to obvious.

You jaded cause your trolling was stoppend. You: I cannot troll any more! Well, Ill just bash guides, moderators and admins some more! Good luck with that! I dont see it last...long.

LAWL

[PeonSanders911]

By the way, little off topic.

Why did SB fail?
I know they failed to keep alot of starting players, AC darktide subs were leaving en masse for SB because it was supposed to be the next big PK thing... few months later most we're comming back complaining about this or that lol.

Shadowbane ran for 6+ years...I would not call that "fail"
Great game!!