Game Diversity

[miyagi]

So...i feel like this game is risking to go the same way other similar games have gone ( who said Darkfall?) and,trust me, it is a really wrong way.
The way of everyone-are-the-same.

Of course the game isn't even out yet, and we cannot know by now.
I really hope that, once other features are added ( archery, magic, shamanism etc ) player will be able to SPECIALIZE and BE UNIQUE !
I know that this is hard for a game, so i will be fine with a high number of aviable templates as well !

So what do you think? Do you feel this game will have diversity ?

[shadowlz]

unless you want to do everything ALL the time, your skills decay if you dont use them.

[KeithStone]

So...i feel like this game is risking to go the same way other similar games have gone ( who said Darkfall?) and,trust me, it is a really wrong way.
The way of everyone-are-the-same.

Of course the game isn't even out yet, and we cannot know by now.
I really hope that, once other features are added ( archery, magic, shamanism etc ) player will be able to SPECIALIZE and BE UNIQUE !
I know that this is hard for a game, so i will be fine with a high number of aviable templates as well !

So what do you think? Do you feel this game will have diversity ?

it's really hard to make assumptions until we have more info.

[orious13]

What has been stated before is that it in order to master something, you have to keep at it, which will make something else decay. You might be able to get to like 60 or 70 in all stats, but only dedicated weaponsmiths can get to 90 or 100 just like dedicated staffmen can get staff combat to 90 or 100.

[zettoz]

I am assuming you will be able to keep several abilities maxed, IE Woodcutting, Woodworking, Architecture, (as they all are similar)

[miyagi]

and what about fighting styles?

[zettoz]

Seeing as fighting will probably far and few between for quite a while you will have one and only one specialization, which is the way it needs to be.

[tilla]

Yah, can't really see fighting getting too diversified on any one game - maybe a secondary that is in the middle range and some dodging or parrying skill in addition to the main high-level weapon.

[zettoz]

Being able to specialize in everything leads to bad game play and homogenization, IE Darkfall. Not even shooters are homogenized as bad as Darkfall was, you specialized depending on what gun you chose,. ( Rifle, Shotgun, Sniper Etc)

[shadowlz]

naw theres plenty of diversity in darkfall. People who chose 2h axes, and people who suck. People who use macros, and people who suck.

[JCatano]

are there plans to have seperate skill point pools? Like, you can get so many skill points to be allocated to combat skills, some for crafting, some for harvesting?

Yes. This is already implemented. There is a soft cap for each skill group.

---

Separate pools = bad (in my opinion)

I think all skills should fall under the same soft cap, so you're either highly skilled in combat, highly skilled in crafting, or a jack-of-all-trades.

[fflhktsn]

im a black guy in game...and black people = diversity so...

oh and since stats are a secret, its going to be very hard to figure out which setup is "best"

so i think there will be lots of variety because of this

[miyagi]

im a black guy in game...and black people = diversity so...

oh and since stats are a secret, its going to be very hard to figure out which setup is "best"

so i think there will be lots of variety because of this

lol :)

well the secrets stats thing is true :D

[miyagi]

im a black guy in game...and black people = diversity so...

oh and since stats are a secret, its going to be very hard to figure out which setup is "best"

so i think there will be lots of variety because of this

lol :)

well the secrets stats thing is true :D

[blackzilla]

There is 25 sets of leather armor.... need I say more... Think of the uniqness between crafters, its like this for bonecrafting as well... can't wait.

<<< Aiming to be one of the top bone crafters serverwide.

[JCatano]

There is 25 sets of leather armor.... need I say more... Think of the uniqness between crafters, its like this for bonecrafting as well... can't wait.

<<< Aiming to be one of the top bone crafters serverwide.

How are they going to be unique?

How can you tell between 25 different sets (if they truly are unique besides look)?

How can you tell which crafter made the better version of the same set? If the only difference is going to be durability and a few different types of quality, then crafting is going to be straightforward and boring.

We need to see numbers... For crafting, economy, and just all practical purposes in general. If there are no unique numbers, code some.

- Two crafters of the same skill should be able to create different versions of the same piece.

- A lower skilled crafter should have a chance to create a better version of something if using much higher quality of resources than a more experienced crafter.

I was under the impression crafting was going to be this way. That type of system needs visible numbers.

[KeithStone]

How are they going to be unique?

How can you tell between 25 different sets (if they truly are unique besides look)?

How can you tell which crafter made the better version of the same set? If the only difference is going to be durability and a few different types of quality, then crafting is going to be straightforward and boring.

We need to see numbers... For crafting, economy, and just all practical purposes in general. If there are no unique numbers, code some.

- Two crafters of the same skill should be able to create different versions of the same piece.

- A lower skilled crafter should have a chance to create a better version of something if using much higher quality of resources than a more experienced crafter.

I was under the impression crafting was going to be this way. That type of system needs visible numbers.

I agree with this 100%

[orious13]

I think it would be interesting not to have the usual "+10 def, +5% against poison" labelled everywhere.

Maybe if you had 1 line that said "Crafter Quality level: XXX" or another line that says "Moderate Piercing Protection". Then you could do some trial and error tests instead of "by the numbers" tests, which just makes min/maxing stuff too easy.

Might have some gear that says "Crafter Quality level: 40" that has "High Piercing Protection" vs a "Crater Quality level: 80" that has "Moderate Piercing Protection". Something that makes it so you can see a little difference in the crafted item, but something that you'd actually have to test out instead of just comparing numbers like in every other game. Level 80 moderate may be higher than level 40 High... maybe not.

[JCatano]

I like min/maxing. It's going to happen, anyway. Smart people always figure out the formula and post it.

[jumpshot]

So OP is saying they didn't understand what was good about Darkfall and didn't like Darkfall.

The problem with "classes" or "specialization" or whatever is that 1 is always the "best," and Flavor of the Monthers flock to that class/specialization/whatever.

And then everyone is the same anyway.

[Ziggy]

From what I have seen stat decay will keep players from being truly good at doing everything. You either need to keep your int/dex/whatever high for your crafting or keep Str/Fort/Agility high for combat. Sure you can do it all, but you are going to be far less effective in the one that you don't have your stats aligned for. Throw on top of that skill decay which i have yet to see, but I am sure is there, and you will see people specialize. However, I like it that people can still do a everything if they are ok with being bad at it *ie solo/selfsuficiant players* It is the freedom needed in this game.

[yoori]

I agree that we should see some numbers. Even if quality is shown as one of the eight masters degrees, durability shoud be a number based on components quality, skill and luck.

This would make every item unique.

And this feature "Characters achieving the Supreme Master level of craftsmanship work with the Xsyon team to introduce a crafted item of their own design." should be enough to try to master your craft.

[Bridger]

I don't know. I kind of like what I see potentially developing. You get an item - a blade let's say. It says it's of 'good' quality and still has some durability left. It also says it's 'Crafted by so-and-so'. So you take it into a fight and your rip your opponent to pieces. "Hmm... this is a pretty good knife!"

Now... did you just happen to get lucky in that fight? If that knife is still causing mayhem several fights later, is it still just a coincidence? Or is there something about 'so-and-so's' skills?

Would you rather have the challenge of uncertainty and opinion? Or have the stats handed to you on a plate?

Call me contrary, but I kind of like the notion of uncertainty and opinion.

[yoori]

I don't know. I kind of like what I see potentially developing. You get an item - a blade let's say. It says it's of 'good' quality and still has some durability left. It also says it's 'Crafted by so-and-so'. So you take it into a fight and your rip your opponent to pieces. "Hmm... this is a pretty good knife!"

Now... did you just happen to get lucky in that fight? If that knife is still causing mayhem several fights later, is it still just a coincidence? Or is there something about 'so-and-so's' skills?

Would you rather have the challenge of uncertainty and opinion? Or have the stats handed to you on a plate?

Call me contrary, but I kind of like the notion of uncertainty and opinion.

It would only make sense if there were different numbers hidden behind "good" and every item would be a little different, otherwise you would know how good "good" was before you buy it.
But that would mean that crafter has to test every item he/she crafts to set fair price.

[Ziggy]

Well I think what will happen is people will buy things from different crafters. They will see which crafters goods are truly good and the names of the true masters of a craft will become well known and you wont need numbers to know relative quality. You will see Cudzluz Created this Item and you will know, hey i bought his stuff in the past, and so have my tribe mates and it was really good, lasted long, and seemed better than most crafters at least for this item.

Run on Sentences and unorganized thoughts for the win.

[Bridger]

yoori,

The relative quality - 'junk', 'poor', 'good', etc - already have numbers (perhaps even a range of numbers) hidden behind them. They have to for those qualities to mean something to the game engine. It's just that from our point of view they're hidden. As for the 'numbers' of an individual's crafted items and how to set the price for the things you make - well, uncertainty and opinion can be a two-edged sword. One that cuts both the prospective purchaser and the prospective vendor. (Including the person who crafted the item in the first place.) Personally, I'd still rather try to figure it out for myself rather than have the game just hand it all to me on a plate.

[marty]

The reason there are usually quantified stats at all in a game is because you can't closely examine and test objects as you could in real life. Making everything opaque just so you could have an air of mystery is a little contrived. It's not a "challenge" if you only have a vague idea of build quality and it's not handing you something on a plate if there are concrete numbers.

That said, I think keeping it the way it is is fine -- for the general public. But maybe if you have high levels in the skill used to craft the item or a high level in the skill to use it, you could get a bit more information. You don't even need to quantify it, really. But maybe if you have a high level in axe, examining an axe in your inventory will tell you "(Very High/High/Normal/Low/Very Low) + (Damage/Reach/Speed) compared to other axes"

bill, low-skilled warrior in triba a: "hey bro, i just bought this sword from tribe b. it says superior quality"

*trade*

joe, mid-level weaponcrafter in tribe a: "bad news... it's superior speed, but low damage and mediocre reach"

*war*

[yoori]

yoori,

The relative quality - 'junk', 'poor', 'good', etc - already have numbers (perhaps even a range of numbers) hidden behind them. They have to for those qualities to mean something to the game engine. It's just that from our point of view they're hidden. As for the 'numbers' of an individual's crafted items and how to set the price for the things you make - well, uncertainty and opinion can be a two-edged sword. One that cuts both the prospective purchaser and the prospective vendor. (Including the person who crafted the item in the first place.) Personally, I'd still rather try to figure it out for myself rather than have the game just hand it all to me on a plate.

I know there are numbers :) I finished two faculties one in IT and one in 3d graphics and animation.

What I'm trying to say is that, there has to be range of numbers behind them and different numbers in range have to have "visible" efect. Otherwise you'd just know how good it is before you buy it.

What I proposed earlier with visible durability number is idea from Entropia Universe(Planet Calypso now). The "quality" effect of items is the same for every item, they differ in durabilty which is based on skill of crafter, quality of components and luck. This game has very complex real-cash economy and this system works. People are investing 100's of 1000's of dollars in virtual buisnesses.

[STAR_GOD]

There is only so much diversity you can introduce on skill tree there will always be limit...

[Haphazard]

I would support more information being delivered about stats/skills/items, but kind of like the vagueness of the terms better than (Axe of +5 damage)

[Bridger]

yoori,

At this point I'm not sure if we're disagreeing.

I'm all for some objective information being delivered to the player. More than just a too generic to be helpful, 'junk...poor...good...etc'. (Unless from experience those generic categories begin to have an objective meaning. 'Okay, junk misses more often than it hits, falls apart after three fights and is marginally better than using harsh language when it comes to dealing damage. Good, on the other hand, increases my chances to hit, is fairly durable and does acceptable damage.') What I don't want is what has been suggested; 'Axe - +5 to hit, -5 to parry, +10 to damage'. I don't want specific, hard number statistics. As with the overall game concept, I want an element of 'figure it out for yourself.'

How that's achieved between those two extremes... Well, I'm willing to wait and see what the developers devise.

[jokhul]

<snip> Well, I'm willing to wait and see what the developers devise.

No need to wait, just login and you can see what the developers devised ;)

The lack of any detailed stats on items is intentional. The current general quality/durability descriptions are all that's planned.

Jooky has even said that some new features, mobs, etc. would be added to the game without being announced or appearing in patch notes. The playerbase will have to discover them on their own.

[thurgond]

I like min/maxing. It's going to happen, anyway. Smart people always figure out the formula and post it.

I dispise min/max'ers.

I like Xsyon's design because game play is hard enough to learn that it keeps the idiots away, and it hides enough of the underlying mechanics that it will keep the min/max'ers away. No flavor or the month here.

[mgilbrtsn]

Hmmmm, tough, tough, TOUGH. I can see both points of view actually. Since both systems have merit (from hidden stats to detailed stats, and anything in between), I think we need to look at what fits with this game and game mechanic. To me, this is clearly not in the realm of wanting to have detailed statistics ala most MMOs out there. On the other hand, I agree with those that say statistics help with trade and such. Since you don't like the left and right side of the argument, what do you think? Well, i'm glad you asked. I think the suggestions of having general stats would be best:

Junk/poor/good/etc is already in there
Name of the crafter is already in there

The thing I would recommend, and I don't know what hidden stats are behind the items, but if it allows and makes a difference with those stats, I would add a crafter skill. for example:

A good quality weapon made by an apprentice would be inferior to a good quality weapon made by an artisan.

in this example, you would show

Good
Artisan
mgilbertsn

There are alot of assumptions with this. Different level crafters can make different level of goods (An artisan can mess up and craft a poor weapon). Another assumption would be that there is a difference between the stats quality of the product and maker of product

This may or may not work, but in the final analysis, the general type of stats work best for this game. If the economy is broken or doesn't seem to work, I'm sure it will be easy for the Devs to add more detail to the items to get the economy started.

[Raizure]

I'm all for the idea of having your own knowledge affect how you see a weapon. This gives tribes a need to have specialization in order to know what they're dealing with and know the value of their own goods. To the contrary, not having someone specialized leaves you in the dust in terms of trade. The current Superior quality is just too generic for high levels of skills. A beginner would look at it and see that it's high quality, but a veteran might see that it's very well balanced and durable.

[yoori]

yoori,

At this point I'm not sure if we're disagreeing.

I'm all for some objective information being delivered to the player. More than just a too generic to be helpful, 'junk...poor...good...etc'. (Unless from experience those generic categories begin to have an objective meaning. 'Okay, junk misses more often than it hits, falls apart after three fights and is marginally better than using harsh language when it comes to dealing damage. Good, on the other hand, increases my chances to hit, is fairly durable and does acceptable damage.') What I don't want is what has been suggested; 'Axe - +5 to hit, -5 to parry, +10 to damage'. I don't want specific, hard number statistics. As with the overall game concept, I want an element of 'figure it out for yourself.'

How that's achieved between those two extremes... Well, I'm willing to wait and see what the developers devise.

I don't think we disagree( I usually don't disagree with people, I try to add different perspective).
After reading posts in this thread, I know what would work for me.
Quality system based on 8 master degrees with more than one value behind it(weapon speed, damage, range, etc.) and visible(by numbers) durability.
Visible durability would make it easier to set price on items, particularly "second hand" items, while quality would leave something to discover.

[Dreamcrest]

Add appraising skill which helps you to get better information from different items. Or you could integrate it with already existing skills as posters before me suggested. A skilled weaponsmith can appraise a weapon, gaining more info than someone who has no skill in weaponsmithing. Or axefighter can do same to axes, because he uses them on daily basis.