If you cant lose your Totem....what's the Endgame?

[PeonSanders911]

A question I have been asking myself about Xyson.....

If you have no chance of losing your city......or taking over your enemies......what is this game going to be like in a month or two? What is the endgame? Get your guy to the soft cap, then work on Basketweaving? And what happens when the junkpiles are gone?
Without conflict with others, I dont see how you can have an endgame. And this "Safezone" is going to be a game killer IMO.

In Shadowbane, when you had more gold/resources than you could spend....was the best part of the game, because the focus of the game was War. Taking over other players/guild cities...Defending yours from your enemies. It was the most fun of any game I've ever played for that reason. It was non-stop action. Major fights every other day/night....and it was glorious.

The big powerfull guilds were always trying to take your city, and your Alliance of several smaller guilds were always trying to take theirs. And it was a blast. Politics became a huge factor......That, to me, was endgame.

With Xyson....( and dont get me wrong, I'm not a hater, I love the game).....I see a BIG problem with the endgame. When players max out their only character....get their city the best it can be........WHAT IS NEXT? You can't go make another guy and work on Healing, or Magic, or whatever...and even if you could....the question still stands? What's next?

The ability to lose or take over a city, was the endgame. And I am having a big problem imagining what this game will be like in a few months, when most of the players have maxed out their characters, and have nothing to do, but run around and try to find someone to kill.

I hope the Dev's have a solution for this, but as of now, I just dont see it. Thoughts of endgame? What you think will happen?

Hate away, flame on, it's just a thought while I wait for the game to come back up.

[Proto]

hail brother Shadowbane player and well met!

[Tehroth]

For the first 6-9months is the building stage of Xyson, the prelude. After this is up is when the tribal warfare will be activated. Whether or not we will take the main tribal territories is up in the air, but nonetheless we will be pvping for plots of land.

[djext2000]

Did someone say endgame in a sandbox game?


BAHAHAHA!!!! Good one, good one...

[DeVelyvion]

What's this end game you speak of? Hi friend meet my friend here named sandbox.

[PeonSanders911]

hail brother Shadowbane player and well met!\

/wave

Fear/Vengence/Moruning Server here.......

[Xidian]

I remember watching a video about Xsyon and the guy said, "There is no endgame, there is no startgame, there is just the game." Now quit whining and go play in the sandbox.

[Tehroth]

Did someone say endgame in a sandbox game?


BAHAHAHA!!!! Good one, good one...

What he means is a goal once you get tired of making underwear and rping a hobo wanting to have sex for crack. Something that will keep one enterained beyong the value of the game if there aren't enough sandbox tools to keep one preoccupied. Pvp is the main reason why most games have it these days it basically adds a whole other element to the game.

Eventually I will get bored of crafting and terraforming because although the game has great sandbox things to do currently we will need more content. I know alot of stuff is still not in game. I just hope the 6-9 months of prelude is not too much time to get everything situated, because if terriotry conquest can destroy all that work...then its for naught.


I remember watching a video about Xsyon and the guy said, "There is no endgame, there is no startgame, there is just the game." Now quit whining and go play in the sandbox.

As said numerous times on the darkfall boards. What is a sandbox without sand, a pail and shovel? Just an empty box to imagine things to do in.

[baka77]

You guys are getting too caught up in the semantics of the word "end game." Rather than end game, substitute the words "recurring game."

The OP's point is valid. When there is nothing else to build, nothing else to train, & no reason to kill anybody other than boredom...what's next? Does anyone from a large tribe REALLY think it's going to take their entire tribe 6-9 months to flesh out their villages? I can't imagine that...

[PeonSanders911]

hail brother Shadowbane player and well met!

And your Sig is Epic!!!

[djext2000]

Not everyone feels compelled to "beat the game"...some people actually just like playing the game. There doesn't need to be an endgame. It's not a themepark game, there is no rush to cap and then "endgame"...you play and exist in sandbox games, not become the best in them and beat them. If you get bored, you do something else that maybe seems interesting. But if everything bores you, then stop playing...the game is no longer fun, it happens. It's like the pvp focused players who just can't understand crafting people.."why would you want to just sit and pick grass and craft things all day in game????" ..people actually like that. Some people just like logging into games like this, sitting around a campfire and chatting with friends or guildmates and doing nothing at all *GASP!*.... no endgame sir.


*edit*: That aside, remember, the developers vision is to release new areas, new crafts, new things to do, etc as time goes on. Some people will get bored faster than others, it happens in all games. Show me one game that has managed to keep all of it's players for years and years by releasing "endgame".

[DeVelyvion]

You guys are getting too caught up in the semantics of the word "end game." Rather than end game, substitute the words "recurring game."

The OP's point is valid. When there is nothing else to build, nothing else to train, & no reason to kill anybody other than boredom...what's next? Does anyone from a large tribe REALLY think it's going to take their entire tribe 6-9 months to flesh out their villages? I can't imagine that...

That's where meta gaming comes in.

[Chavoda]

There will be "end game" even if you core base (let assume the current land is your core) cant be destroyed there will be extended land , maybe even land far away from your core land you can claim and hold, land whit resources. land to fight over.

Save zones will be gone, warfare can and will happen even whiteout the "need" to have full destruction.. fact is, we all know shit (nothing) about the "end game" the end game will be when everything is in place. Mines and mining,blacksmithing, house building. farming. the 300+ resources that are in the datafile. we only can fantasize how things will go and give a "educated guess" but discussing this "end game" now is as useful as discussing how the world will look in five hundred years.

[sionide]

Did someone say endgame in a sandbox game?


BAHAHAHA!!!! Good one, good one...

That was my thoughts exactly.

We really should as a community stop promoting this game.

In the past week the forums and global filled with crap by .... (we all know who). It's just a matter of time before more people who think they are the kings of PvP (y0, I am hardcore I played Shadowbane! I played DF!) come and try to change this game, WoWers, and Goons, then it's gg Xsyon.

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/headquarters/comics/00070_2.jpg

[Proto]

That was my thoughts exactly.

We really should as a community stop promoting this game.

In the past week the forums and global filled with crap by .... (we all know who). It's just a matter of time before more people who think they are the kings of PvP (y0, I am hardcore I played Shadowbane! I played DF!) come and try to change this game, WoWers, and Goons, then it's gg Xsyon.

And I'm sure there's absolutely nothing about or within this game that you would like to be different.

yeah right.

Anyway, us SBers aren't trying to change this game, we're trying to bring this game to its full potential. We've been told of an open world, with pvp and eventual city/asset destruction. Those are the things we hold most dear, and they are things that we have a significant amount of experience with, there's few games with the longevity of the SB playerbase dedicated to one game. It's not that we think we're hard core, it's just that we know how fun it can be when group versus group pvp and asset destruction is done properly. It would be stupid of us to not want to implement the best system possible for such things.

And hey, we paid the same amount as you, so we're entitled to ask for changes we feel would benefit our time spent playing this game.

Get off your soap box.

[caldrin]

The crafting in this game is great and will keep me occupied for a few weeks i guess but then ill want to be doing other things..
Going out finding PVE mbos to kill and so forth.. then ill also want to go out pvping now and then and tribal war will hopefully be a big part of this game..

IF it just stays a pure crafting game i know ill get bored after ive maxed out a few skills.

[darth_vato]

lol @ people taking the term "end-game" so literally. There will become a point when crafting gets old. There will be a point where you won't progress any further in a certain craft.

Then what?

Some of you people are so dense it's mind-blowing.

[PrinceReaper]

I kinda agree, and crafting doesn't really have a purpose anyway, its just like grinding in another form to get a better product, which is mostly related to itself, in the sense you make better tools to make better stuff etc, but once you reach the end tier in crafting, and you well stocked, and you maxed your character out, and with very restrictive forms of terraforming and house building, the paths you can take are quite restricted.

[esudar]

i think after 1-2 months when people built everything they wanted and when they get tired of running to their neighbours to fight them people will start to play less and less

[SotekOne]

once you reach the end tier in crafting, and you well stocked, and you maxed your character out, and with very restrictive forms of terraforming and house building, the paths you can take are quite restricted.

You don't think they will add new functionality?

[Michse]

Hm, discussion is a bit confusing.
End Game..is or will there be an End Game?
Sure, some people will quit after a couple of weeks, cause they expect a guided game where everyone can tell you: Go, do that, kill that, bring me that...

But, why should crafting has an end? if things aren't build for eternity, they decreasing in durability and get destroyed if there can't be repaired..so crafting never ends.
If tents and houses have to repaired after a couple of ingame weeks...if walls and bridges needs attention by a crafter to upkeep them.

Some statements are disturbing me: PVP is fine, but its not the best and ultimate game feature. I don't want pvp all over, there have to bee safe places. Its called civilization for some reasons...players have to been able to trade, travel...and and and

Personaly i hope they gave us more and more tools to play in our sandbox and implement some important rules to stop players overwhelming others and destroying there fun in the game. And calling someone a carebear because he just wants to start with his starter tools is just on step in that direction. Security is nothing without freedom and freedom is nothing without security.

I enjoy Xsyon in the state it is, i like it realy much. I'm convinced, devs will create more and more things to do or to explore, there will never be an end game for me.
I look forward to go to a safe trading place where well known crafter deliver there superior goods, traveling back in fear of evil robbers, maybe i hire a merc to protect me for my way, maybe i travel in a caravon to increase selfdefending...and so on and so on...enough to do with my precious free time i'm willing to spend in a game.

Hope i see u in game
Michse

[Salvadore]

Its pretty amazing how some people of this community really get confused on common terms in mmos. Case in point - end game. I almost think a portion of you slightly change the meaning of it for your own benefit or attempt to derail by acting ignorant of xsyon's potential AGAIN for your own benefit and personal desires.

What will this game be at its APEX? An apex is its tip/point/vertex/SUMMIT. We shall use summit as to hopefully not get people confused.

What happens when you've crafted everything 10 times over? You've built several villages. Your skills are maxed out even after you've changed your character several times. Hell, lets say you are on your third generation toon due to old age. You cant possibly tell me you wont get bored of this game within AT LEAST 6 months to a year. So what if they add 18 different types of hammers, or 50 different types of houses? You will still eventually get bored of grinding them out.

OK, so you've got a community. The reality of those communities is they usually stick together from game to game. You've pioneered that xsyon be as safe and pvp minimal as possible. You get tired of game, move on. Chances are your community goes with it, sticking together, wherever you go. Your gonna do what YOU wanna do, right?

Adding the ability for full scale tribal warfare with asset destruction IS the apex. However, it is a constant apex, meaning that everything in the game you do points to it. A goal in other words. Currently, what exactly IS the goal? Thats debatable im sure. Adding tribal sieges and asset destruction gives much more risk and reason to EVERYTHING that you can do in this game.

FYI on Shadowbane - lasted over 7 years. It had transfered to a horrible host (UBI) and devs DID NOT LISTEN to the community. They constantly favored the "carebear" type of player because they were the ones that would scream the loudest and the most. This slowly killed it. Got taken down. That day, a small group of people started to build an emulator for it. 2 years later its almost working. The majority of that playerbase keeps in touch throught all games either by being enemies or friends. Shadowbane got something right that NO OTHER mmo has been able to do and many have tried - siege warfare. Xsyon has the absolute best potential ive ever seen to possibly be the absolute funnest mmo out there. Disregarding full out asset destruction simply because the tenured beta player believes that THEY want to build build build forever without anything ever being destroyed seems like yet another mmo tragedy to me.

[FabricSoftener]

end game is when you have completed the game and no longer play.
you dont want to get to end game because that is when you cancel your subscription anyway

[Jadzia]

I've played a sandboxish game for 3 years. Free character progression, lot of non-combat skills, player housing, player run economy. It has a PvP zone for the ones who likes it but you are not forced to go there in any way. It has no territory control. I've never got bored with that game. I understand some people find PvP the main source of their fun, but not everyone is like that. I believe that PvP oriented players may get bored after some months or weeks, but the crafter-builder types will greatly enjoy the game without tribewar-style endgame.

[PeonSanders911]

You guys are getting too caught up in the semantics of the word "end game." Rather than end game, substitute the words "recurring game."

The OP's point is valid. When there is nothing else to build, nothing else to train, & no reason to kill anybody other than boredom...what's next? Does anyone from a large tribe REALLY think it's going to take their entire tribe 6-9 months to flesh out their villages? I can't imagine that...

Yes, I should not have used the term "End Game".....

[FabricSoftener]

Yes, I should not have used the term "End Game".....

re-asking the question without the word 'end game' would provide you with an intresting exercise in logic that I would now like to see :)

re-ask the question if you please.

[neestas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4

That is all.

[Salvadore]

I've played a sandboxish game for 3 years. Free character progression, lot of non-combat skills, player housing, player run economy. It has a PvP zone for the ones who likes it but you are not forced to go there in any way. It has no territory control. I've never got bored with that game. I understand some people find PvP the main source of their fun, but not everyone is like that. I believe that PvP oriented players may get bored after some months or weeks, but the crafter-builder types will greatly enjoy the game without tribewar-style endgame.

3 years? Awesome! Ive got about 11 years of MMO experience. Rock on!!!

Ok seriously. I understand that YOU want to sit and craft all day. A good portion of the population does. However, theres a huge niche market and also a portion of this population that wants pvp/asset destruction. I understand that you didnt get bored with that game (although you are here because?) but i would see it as mind numbing.

Nothing personal, but I would like to have the ABILITY to burn everything you have to the ground IF I felt the need to do so. Im sure you could understand this with all the harrassment certain tribes are giving your tribe specifically? Wouldn't you just LOVE to stand up for yourselves, burn THEM to the ground, shut their mouths, and then move on? They've obviously asked for it and are pushing you to do it...

[FabricSoftener]

3 years? Awesome! Ive got about 11 years of MMO experience. Rock on!!!

Ok seriously. I understand that YOU want to sit and craft all day. A good portion of the population does. However, theres a huge niche market and also a portion of this population that wants pvp/asset destruction. I understand that you didnt get bored with that game (although you are here because?) but i would see it as mind numbing.

Nothing personal, but I would like to have the ABILITY to burn everything you have to the ground IF I felt the need to do so. Im sure you could understand this with all the harrassment certain tribes are giving your tribe specifically? Wouldn't you just LOVE to stand up for yourselves, burn THEM to the ground, shut their mouths, and then move on? They've obviously asked for it and are pushing you to do it...

this game doesnt even have a combat engine and you are talking about assest destruction mechanics?

yes there will be assest destruction mechanics IF, the server lag gets fixed, IF combat system actually get put in place, IF armor stats gets put in, IF farming gets put in, IF cooking gets put in, IF taming gets put in. (I think I have missed a few more items but that should be at least a small list).

and NO, he will not spend time talking about how that mechanic will work when he is busy working on other things atm. Seige mechnanics is likely a year away, in fact, 6 months to tribal warfare expansion is delusional, its more likely a year

[Marcus]

3 years? Awesome! Ive got about 11 years of MMO experience. Rock on!!!

Ok seriously. I understand that YOU want to sit and craft all day. A good portion of the population does. However, theres a huge niche market and also a portion of this population that wants pvp/asset destruction. I understand that you didnt get bored with that game (although you are here because?) but i would see it as mind numbing.

Nothing personal, but I would like to have the ABILITY to burn everything you have to the ground IF I felt the need to do so. Im sure you could understand this with all the harrassment certain tribes are giving your tribe specifically? Wouldn't you just LOVE to stand up for yourselves, burn THEM to the ground, shut their mouths, and then move on? They've obviously asked for it and are pushing you to do it...

11? awesome! I've got 16 years... what that has to do with anything, not entirely sure...

I see where you are coming from with the ABILITY to burn everything to the ground if you felt the need to do so, the only problem i have with it is, i really haven't seen games like that survive very long..

why? i don't know. I never played Shadowbane, as i was still in UO at the time. Everyone speaks so highly of it, but all i remember is the constant complaints, and it going FTP very quickly.... I wish i could remember why...

I love PvP, and want it a big part of this game, but i just don't see people building castles in this sandbox, and watching the zerg guild coming over to kick it over, because "they felt the need to do so", very long...

I don't have the answer, and I'm curious to see how it plays out... its a pretty fine line to balance out to keep both sides happy....

[Mims44]

I think people confuse "endgame" with "the end of the game".

The term "endgame" actually has nothing to do with actually ending the game.
It refers more to your chars development, and level of success in the game.

When you start you have basically nothing, no idea of the world around you. limited stats,equipment, knowledge, etc.
When these things start getting to a very high level for you, then what you do after that point is endgame.

The ones who said "sandbox has no endgame, we'll be building more villages and/or making constant repairs and new armor/weapons/etc"
Guess what you just described.... endgame stuffs;)

Whatever aspects of the game there are to do to occupy your time once your char is maxxed (hard or softcap). That is endgame.


Oh and now a quick response to the original question:
I don't think we'll be seeing destructible tribe stuffs for awhile. Right now the combat engine is ... uhhh... yeah. Along with the fact you cannot make a secure perimeter around your land. It wouldn't make sense to put it in now.
Best way to implement the changes are defense first, then offense. Or 2nd best implement them both at the same time. But if they implemented all offensive parts of siege before players have the ability to fortify their homes... then you'll just have one big landmass of crater=)

[BigCountry]

I think people confuse "endgame" with "the end of the game".

The term "endgame" actually has nothing to do with actually ending the game.
It refers more to your chars development, and level of success in the game.

When you start you have basically nothing, no idea of the world around you. limited stats,equipment, knowledge, etc.
When these things start getting to a very high level for you, then what you do after that point is endgame.

The ones who said "sandbox has no endgame, we'll be building more villages and/or making constant repairs and new armor/weapons/etc"
Guess what you just described.... endgame stuffs;)

Whatever aspects of the game there are to do to occupy your time once your char is maxxed (hard or softcap). That is endgame.

/this

[djext2000]

3 years? Awesome! Ive got about 11 years of MMO experience. Rock on!!!

Holy shit 11 years!?!?! Well....I guess the discussion is over, who among us can argue with your wisdom sir.


Ok seriously. I understand that YOU want to sit and craft all day. A good portion of the population does. However, theres a huge niche market and also a portion of this population that wants pvp/asset destruction. I understand that you didnt get bored with that game (although you are here because?) but i would see it as mind numbing.
Well in your 11 years why are you not still playing a game that caters to this "huge" niche market? The difference is, what one portion wants (pvp) is for every portion to be forced into what they want regardless. Well, you said it yourself, a good portion of this population doesn't want or care about that. I will even say the vast majority of this population doesn't share your fiery combat utopia. The man was simply stating he has played one game for 3 years that was basically a crafting social game with no pvp or "endgame"....people just existed and played in the world.


Nothing personal, but I would like to have the ABILITY to burn everything you have to the ground IF I felt the need to do so. Im sure you could understand this with all the harassment certain tribes are giving your tribe specifically? Wouldn't you just LOVE to stand up for yourselves, burn THEM to the ground, shut their mouths, and then move on? They've obviously asked for it and are pushing you to do it...

Again we have to see the difference here. Would he or those like him just LOVE to stand up and burn THEM to the ground? You bet your ass! And then would like to be left alone. But that is not how it would end...it would be constant attacks and harassment to the point that they would no longer be playing THEIR game...but playing YOUR game..

This is why the pvp crowd are met with such disdain. You don't see crafters and socials and 'carebears' going into PVP games demanding "crafting! dancing! more emotes! houses you can put paintings and carpets into! the ability to make anyone who bothers me be ignored 100%!"

[yoori]

I'm actually like the idea of safe main towns. It gives us much more options for playstyles. Tribes have choice if you want to be economical empire you need to claim resources(extension lands) and fight to defend them, if you want to stay out of war you'll just stay with your main territory and find a way to trade for what you need, maybe run trading hub, if you want to fucus on PvP you can become mercenary tribe and fight for other tribes.

More diversity means more fun for me, deeper politics, deeper economy. That's sandbox for me you decide how you want to play and game gives you tools to play that way.

If none of the tribes decides to claim a land(small chance), we'll just have heavy PvP zones around rare resources.

[Chavoda]

3 years? Awesome! Ive got about 11 years of MMO experience. Rock on!!!

Ok seriously. I understand that YOU want to sit and craft all day. A good portion of the population does. However, theres a huge niche market and also a portion of this population that wants pvp/asset destruction. I understand that you didnt get bored with that game (although you are here because?) but i would see it as mind numbing.

Nothing personal, but I would like to have the ABILITY to burn everything you have to the ground IF I felt the need to do so. Im sure you could understand this with all the harassment certain tribes are giving your tribe specifically? Wouldn't you just LOVE to stand up for yourselves, burn THEM to the ground, shut their mouths, and then move on? They've obviously asked for it and are pushing you to do it...


Why are you making this thread about PvP full destruction ? why do you use the -I- word constantly.

Dear Player Salvadore, there will be APEX Game play in this game, There will be APEX warfare for you and there will be APEX Non-warfare for Jadzia (just pulling a players name) .

Rock on whit your 11 years mmo exp, I bin playing MUDS before mmo's even existed!
Anyway, A sandbox you make your own content, if you get bored, its your fault , not the games, -you- make the content, -you- are the content. Sure the more options we have the better. -pre-CU-SWG was a sandbox, and loads and laod of players played it for years -+5 whiteout going ever into the whole PvP warfare scene. EvE has loads of players who never fire a single gun but enjoy them self whit craft or market. Others Like Limeted PvP based on reasons , some like Mindless PvP just for the sake of it. ( I consider fps games rather mindless, yet I play them everyday, I also play the sims and Fluffy games )

The thread discussion was about APEX game play not about PvP alone.
I like everyone else have a view on how the game will be in "some time(tm)" In my view it will be as much as a trade game as a PvP game. we will have fully conquer able Territory's . I even have a Idea based on data how it would work if im right.
You will have your APEX PvP game play and crafter will have their Crafting APEX game. and Hunters will Hunt the game APEX mutated monsters. and others will try to meddle in APEX tribal politics, and yet others will not give a damn about it all meddle a litttle in everyting and role play their APEX character story.

As for my view on PvP APEX game play. one day we have way more resources. in the craft datafile there are Totem parts. lots of them.. based on forum sources and combined whit the data files I came to the assumption that one day we be able to craft totems, claim more land (mines and stuff) and those will be fully conquest able (destroy enemy totem/take it over. that you core land (current tribe land) will be save from destruction but open to PvP at any time will only make sure people can contineu the APEX Epic battles around the world of Xsyon.

Uch..think im done now..

PS: never mean any insults if one feels that way, sorry in adv.

[Delvie]

We're talking end game before we've even launched. Personally I'm hoping the game changes so much over the next year that we'll look back at this discussion in disbelief. So far as I know animal taming, cooking, farming, religion, healing, magic, bows and arrows, mining, etc are all planned to go in during Prelude. Let's say only 4 of those make it in - all of them are game changers in their own way. Not to mention the combat upgrade. Heck we've even asked for carts before horses are in game:)

[Jadzia]

3 years? Awesome! Ive got about 11 years of MMO experience. Rock on!!!

Ok seriously. I understand that YOU want to sit and craft all day. A good portion of the population does. However, theres a huge niche market and also a portion of this population that wants pvp/asset destruction. I understand that you didnt get bored with that game (although you are here because?) but i would see it as mind numbing.

Nothing personal, but I would like to have the ABILITY to burn everything you have to the ground IF I felt the need to do so. Im sure you could understand this with all the harrassment certain tribes are giving your tribe specifically? Wouldn't you just LOVE to stand up for yourselves, burn THEM to the ground, shut their mouths, and then move on? They've obviously asked for it and are pushing you to do it...

No I don't feel the urge to burn them to the ground. This would only mean that I let them to force me to play the game in their way, not in mine.

I do understand that you would find the game extremely boring without the ability to conquer other tribes and territories. A lot of players are PvP oriented and they hate to craft or build for long. The current setup of the game doesn't allow that mechanic, and I understand your frustration (don't know why you bought the game though when it was clearly stated that it has no territory control and won't have for like 6-9 months).

Thats why I hope that we get 2 different PvP servers very soon. I'm sure a lot of PvP players would quit after some weeks or months if they don't get their war game. That would harm the game and the developers too. Its much better to give it them asap, and everyone is happy then.

[dxwarlock]

Thats why I hope that we get 2 different PvP servers very soon. I'm sure a lot of PvP players would quit after some weeks or months if they don't get their war game. That would harm the game and the developers too. Its much better to give it them asap, and everyone is happy then.

The only harm I can see in that, is that it may not solve the "hardcore gankers" issue..

As those looking for pure equal, honorable, mass tribal warfare and PvP will goto the PvP server. but the ones looking for easy kills will stay on the PvE server. KNOWING that on the other server, the people are ready and willing to fight back, and not easy to kill. and KNOWING the PvE server now has less PvP types, and more crafters..they will see it as a mass buffet of easy ganks and kills.

but I guess a good side effect of that, is it will be easier to tell the actual PvP crowd from the easy e-peen needing gankers. the ones actually wanting PvP will be on the true PvP server, and the gankers on the PvE server can no longer hide behind the "its PvP, you knew that" as a excuse to kill people at spawns and such.

as I have to utmost respect for those that want a true and fair PvP fight for the challenge and respect it earns them, and hate accidentally lumping one of them into the "I enjoy the game by ruining it for you" types, as so many PK'ers try to blur the line and give them a bad name by using a legitimate reason, as a cop-out.

[Ripp]

I think most people don't want to lose everything or even have that possible. That was a problem with Shadowbane, people who lost everything either left or joined the zerg and the "end game" was the Borg zerg gobbling up everyone else. Not really all that fun.

I'd like to see some kind of system where the victors recieved some kind of rewards for winning the Tribe battles. This could be in the form of looted goods and wares, skill/gain bonus, something that creates interest in raiding but not to the point where everyone quits or joins the zerg.

[Tehroth]

Perhaps for the main starting tribal areas they can't be taken, but looted of their goods for a siege victory, but tribal expansions can be fully taken. I can foresee alot of people getting bored of crafting for 6-9 months. Not to mention Jordi's dev team is pretty small so they won't be having new content out very fast. This is what is worrying alot of players.

[Dubanka]

I think most people don't want to lose everything or even have that possible. That was a problem with Shadowbane, people who lost everything either left or joined the zerg and the "end game" was the Borg zerg gobbling up everyone else. Not really all that fun.

I'd like to see some kind of system where the victors recieved some kind of rewards for winning the Tribe battles. This could be in the form of looted goods and wares, skill/gain bonus, something that creates interest in raiding but not to the point where everyone quits or joins the zerg.

I'm actualy going to agree with the carebear militia :)

SB ate it's young. It was too hardcore...it bled players like a cut throat in its first year...loss was devastating and final, you lost your home, ability to train, make gear, etc. I think even those of us who learned to love it realize that it was, especially at the beginning (when cities were much more time consuming and expensive to build) too hardcore for it's own good.

So...Tribal warfare.
- No city should be exempt from seiging
- Prelude cities can not be captured or destroyed by seiging (but can be raided and looted [to be defined later])
- Expansion land territories will be conquerable and controllable..as necessity because they will contain new and valuable resources required to make new technologies and major improvements on old technologies.

So. If i want to wage war on your pathetic excuse for a tribal organization i will attempt to:
- raid and conquer and expansion territories you control
- seige and raid your prelude city to hinder your logistics (crafting) and generally for demoralization.

of course, seige lessons -
- timer between seiges, you shouldnt be able to seige someone 24-7.
- self seiging has to be an exploit
- defender should be able to pick the window when the seige will occur.

general thought - no tribe should be able to sit back and talk massive amounts of poop without being able to be held accountable for it. Prelude cities may be safe from capture/destruction, but the inhabitants have to be able to be held accountable by other players.

[Ripp]

I'm actualy going to agree with the carebear militia :)

No offense but if you think me, my Tribe, or anyone with similar views is carebear then you're sadly mistaken. If we were carebears, we'd be playing on a Rift PvE server right now. Just because we don't want Shadowbane 2 doesn't mean we don't want PvP.

[neestas]

I'm actualy going to agree with the carebear militia :)

SB ate it's young. It was too hardcore...it bled players like a cut throat in its first year...loss was devastating and final, you lost your home, ability to train, make gear, etc. I think even those of us who learned to love it realize that it was, especially at the beginning (when cities were much more time consuming and expensive to build) too hardcore for it's own good.

So...Tribal warfare.
- No city should be exempt from seiging
- Prelude cities can not be captured or destroyed by seiging (but can be raided and looted [to be defined later])
- Expansion land territories will be conquerable and controllable..as necessity because they will contain new and valuable resources required to make new technologies and major improvements on old technologies.

So. If i want to wage war on your pathetic excuse for a tribal organization i will attempt to:
- raid and conquer and expansion territories you control
- seige and raid your prelude city to hinder your logistics (crafting) and generally for demoralization.

of course, seige lessons -
- timer between seiges, you shouldnt be able to seige someone 24-7.
- self seiging has to be an exploit
- defender should be able to pick the window when the seige will occur.

general thought - no tribe should be able to sit back and talk massive amounts of poop without being able to be held accountable for it. Prelude cities may be safe from capture/destruction, but the inhabitants have to be able to be held accountable by other players.

This guy talks sense. Only iffy part is defender picking the window of siege. Would rather have a system where attacker signs up and then defender has a 4 hours wide slider (to both + and -, so total window of 8 hours) to adjust the siege start. As in, tribe A decides to siege at 6 PM and signs up for siege, tribe B who is getting sieged can choose the start of the siege anywhere between 2 PM and 10 PM.

[Dsk954]

yes there will be assest destruction mechanics IF, the server lag gets fixed, IF combat system actually get put in place, IF armor stats gets put in, IF farming gets put in, IF cooking gets put in, IF taming gets put in. (I think I have missed a few more items but that should be at least a small list).

and NO, he will not spend time talking about how that mechanic will work when he is busy working on other things atm. Seige mechnanics is likely a year away, in fact, 6 months to tribal warfare expansion is delusional, its more likely a year[/QUOTE]

------------------------------

thats the thing, every MMO is a race against the clock. of course every cool aspect could be added in time but the trick is to do it before the player base gets bored and leaves.

I figure that being a small production they are releasing the game now to make money and allow themselves to keep producing. But, this game is missing a few very basic things that should have been put in before launch (combat, at the very least).

[Doc]

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/3869-My-PvP-Idea

Toss your own idea, revise presented ideas...

[d1g1talbuddha]

I am an avid pvp'r. And I am all for the main tribe towns remaining a safe zone. I've seen what happens to a player driven economy when the merchants and crafters get greifed completely out of a game. Not only do they suffer, but in the end pvp suffers as well. Not sure how many of you have ever had the experience of playing Jump Gate, during its first years.. there really was no safe zone. Guilds patrolled and protected the traders and merchants. But as the pvp guilds became stronger, and the crafters and supporters of the economy started to disappear.. the economy went to crap, and it took near forever to find the equipment to even launch into half decent pvp.

With the tribes host settlement protected, crafters and merchants left to do what they enjoy in peace, I believe everything will become win/win.

The secondary towns, and better materials should be in contested pvp areas.. forcing tribes to fight for the very best of supplies and land. And any successful tribe would know that not only do the pvpers depend on the crafters, but crafters will depend on the pvpers for the superior supplies they can bring in.

Crafters = medicine men, artisans, builders etc....
PvPers = hunter gatherers...

There is a reason we have had both throughout the history of mankind. We have always depended on eachother. Why should it be any different here?

[Mitsarugii]

i really wish soo many ppl in this game were not so focused on pvp/tribal warfare/sieges/destruction

then game hasnt even launched yet so calm down, take a deep breath and ENJOY what you can do for now >.<

EDIT : in the words of the immortal legend ... quit j0r jibba jabber !!

[esudar]

i really wish soo many ppl in this game were not so focused on pvp/tribal warfare/sieges/destruction

then game hasnt even launched yet so calm down, take a deep breath and ENJOY what you can do for now >.<

EDIT : in the words of the immortal legend ... quit j0r jibba jabber !!

i guess those people have played a few mmos for more than 2 months

[vorg]

If you want an "end game", go play checkers :)

[Tandarie]

And I'm sure there's absolutely nothing about or within this game that you would like to be different.

yeah right.

Anyway, us SBers aren't trying to change this game, we're trying to bring this game to its full potential. We've been told of an open world, with pvp and eventual city/asset destruction. Those are the things we hold most dear, and they are things that we have a significant amount of experience with, there's few games with the longevity of the SB playerbase dedicated to one game. It's not that we think we're hard core, it's just that we know how fun it can be when group versus group pvp and asset destruction is done properly. It would be stupid of us to not want to implement the best system possible for such things.

And hey, we paid the same amount as you, so we're entitled to ask for changes we feel would benefit our time spent playing this game.

Get off your soap box.


You just joined the game 2 days ago. Get your feet off the coffee table and stop drinking the good beer.


This game doesn't need to be * fixed* by SBers whoever you are. Not to mention, not everyone thinks clubbing baby seals the first day of launch is a good time. let the game launch first for God sakes!! Then I'm sure the developers will have a little more time to tell you what their vision for the game is.

[Proto]

You just joined the game 2 days ago. Get your feet off the coffee table and stop drinking the good beer.


This game doesn't need to be * fixed* by SBers whoever you are. Not to mention, not everyone thinks clubbing baby seals the first day of launch is a good time. let the game launch first for God sakes!! Then I'm sure the developers will have a little more time to tell you what their vision for the game is.

Hey Tandarie

Thanks for your concern, but I'll voice my opinions when it pleases me, not you.

[Dubanka]

Only iffy part is defender picking the window of siege.

reason being is just anti grief mechanic for the defender.

the defender shoudl have 24 hours to set a time, which should be between 36 and 72 hrs from the point of seige/war/whatever you want to call it. Then another 96 hr window if 'no_seige' following a defense...an attacker should not be able to grief a defender into losing by just repeated seiging them (can't say i've ever done that before :/ ) ...but if you can't handle a min 1 seige per week...wtf.

again, this mechanic is abuseable by creating a bogus tribe to lay seige to yourself, to gain the protection window...just something devs and the community should have to watch for.

[BigCountry]

PLAY TO CRUSH!

[Proto]

PLAY TO CRUSH!

hah! indeed!

or there's the other saying.

Post to crush!

[Proto]

reason being is just anti grief mechanic for the defender.

the defender shoudl have 24 hours to set a time, which should be between 36 and 72 hrs from the point of seige/war/whatever you want to call it. Then another 96 hr window if 'no_seige' following a defense...an attacker should not be able to grief a defender into losing by just repeated seiging them (can't say i've ever done that before :/ ) ...but if you can't handle a min 1 seige per week...wtf.

again, this mechanic is abuseable by creating a bogus tribe to lay seige to yourself, to gain the protection window...just something devs and the community should have to watch for.

lol not quite sure why all of that sounds very familiar

[Dubanka]

quite. just trying to fix the minor flaws to a system that worked very effectively (at the end...not so effectively for the first couple years)

[PeonSanders911]

PLAY TO CRUSH!

Well said!!

[coca]

Ican has boat with cannon?

Ican dig lake next to your tribe while you sleep?

[Gradishar]

This game has some incredible potential. An open world with terraforming has a great deal of appeal. However, if the ability to terraform and create keeps/strongholds is purely for aesthetics, then an incredible opportunity will be lost. A system which allows one to to seek defensible locations for asset creation...but does not also allow some form of competitive asset destruction...will be truly tragic IMHO.

I urge the developers of Xsyon to create a balanced, compelling and entertaining system of both asset construction and destruction. The framework is certainly there...it need only be fleshed out.

[mrcalhou]

This game has some incredible potential. An open world with terraforming has a great deal of appeal. However, if the ability to terraform and create keeps/strongholds is purely for aesthetics, then an incredible opportunity will be lost. A system which allows one to to seek defensible locations for asset creation...but does not also allow some form of competitive asset destruction...will be truly tragic IMHO.

I urge the developers of Xsyon to create a balanced, compelling and entertaining system of both asset construction and destruction. The framework is certainly there...it need only be fleshed out.

This! A thousand times this!

[Arcturus]

It seems silly to allow us to build stuff if we can't knock it down.

[Salvadore]

This game has some incredible potential. An open world with terraforming has a great deal of appeal. However, if the ability to terraform and create keeps/strongholds is purely for aesthetics, then an incredible opportunity will be lost. A system which allows one to to seek defensible locations for asset creation...but does not also allow some form of competitive asset destruction...will be truly tragic IMHO.

I urge the developers of Xsyon to create a balanced, compelling and entertaining system of both asset construction and destruction. The framework is certainly there...it need only be fleshed out.

THANK YOU for saying perfectly what I've failed to get across!!!

Major +1.

[Salvadore]

I really have hope for this community yet. I honestly do. Its almost like a cute little baby tiger that has the potential to really pwn some peoples faces off...or get caught by a zoo keeper and be caged all day and have cute little stuffed baby tigers for sale all around its safe home and takes pictures with chinese tourists all day.

/sarcasm off

Glad I got so many panties in a bind. Good to see you are all alive and really concerned about this game. Hopefully, in 6 months, many will see the potential that im talking about with siege warfare. So many people get appalled when they see words like "asset destruction" and "ffa pvp".

Stressing it - I'm not personally trying to make this game a clone of any other. I'm simply trying to seek out optimistic ideas and open-minded people that hopefully see how great the potential for this game is. NOT ruin it as a whole regardless of one's own personal beliefs.

[Xidian]

I really have hope for this community yet. I honestly do. Its almost like a cute little baby tiger that has the potential to really pwn some peoples faces off...or get caught by a zoo keeper and be caged all day and have cute little stuffed baby tigers for sale all around its safe home and takes pictures with chinese tourists all day.

/sarcasm off

Glad I got so many panties in a bind. Good to see you are all alive and really concerned about this game. Hopefully, in 6 months, many will see the potential that im talking about with siege warfare. So many people get appalled when they see words like "asset destruction" and "ffa pvp".

Stressing it - I'm not personally trying to make this game a clone of any other. I'm simply trying to seek out optimistic ideas and open-minded people that hopefully see how great the potential for this game is. NOT ruin it as a whole regardless of one's own personal beliefs.

I believe you should be able to do almost anything you can in real life that you can do in-game. But in real life you just don't go out and pwn some noobs and destroy towns. If you do that in real life there are consequences, and there should be consequences in-game as well.

[Salvadore]

No I don't feel the urge to burn them to the ground. This would only mean that I let them to force me to play the game in their way, not in mine.

I do understand that you would find the game extremely boring without the ability to conquer other tribes and territories. A lot of players are PvP oriented and they hate to craft or build for long. The current setup of the game doesn't allow that mechanic, and I understand your frustration (don't know why you bought the game though when it was clearly stated that it has no territory control and won't have for like 6-9 months).

Thats why I hope that we get 2 different PvP servers very soon. I'm sure a lot of PvP players would quit after some weeks or months if they don't get their war game. That would harm the game and the developers too. Its much better to give it them asap, and everyone is happy then.

Honestly, it would be impossible for me to see this game as "boring" because the ability to conquer other tribes does not exist. I would definitely see it as a tragedy, as in xsyon having missed such a great potential opportunity...even if it be 1 year down the road. Remember, myself and everyone involved with me are going to be doing the exact same amount of crafting as everyone else...we just are enjoying the risk/reward potential.

I bought the game fully aware of everything stated on the forums. I bought it agains the majority that I know criticizing the combat system and various other aspects of the game and scope. I bought it because im positive it will be massively enjoyable REGARDLESS of how I personally hope it ends up. I have fanatical faith, and hope, in this whole project.

I dont think 2 servers are the answer. My tribe will NEED the things YOUR tribe are making, most likely by trade rather than force. Underneath my pvp exterior is someone who appreciates all the same things you do...however...I simply prefer good competition and risk/reward over all the rest. Believe it or not, you guys need MY type of player because, as recruitment pm's have proven to me, you've personally got quite a good bit of "evil" interested in you guys anyway. AKA - im not above merc'in ;]

[Salvadore]

I believe you should be able to do almost anything you can in real life that you can do in-game. But in real life you just don't go out and pwn some noobs and destroy towns. If you do that in real life there are consequences, and there should be consequences in-game as well.

First off, dont mention RL: too many around here take it way too far and waaaaay too seriously. Sad, really.

Secondly, you are completely right and i agree 100%. Im SUPER excited about enjoying every aspect of it! However, if we are in a post apocalyptic world, and someone starts stealin what's rightfully MY junkpile...well...theres friction...and probably someones gonna get a busted head.

Highly doubt it would be all rainbows and glitterfarts with everyone saying "lets craft together" and "sure ill share my limited resources with you even though it might cost my survival, lets talk around the fire..." Just aint gonna happen 100% of the time, ya know?

[Xidian]

First off, dont mention RL: too many around here take it way too far and waaaaay too seriously. Sad, really.

Secondly, you are completely right and i agree 100%. Im SUPER excited about enjoying every aspect of it! However, if we are in a post apocalyptic world, and someone starts stealin what's rightfully MY junkpile...well...theres friction...and probably someones gonna get a busted head.

Highly doubt it would be all rainbows and glitterfarts with everyone saying "lets craft together" and "sure ill share my limited resources with you even though it might cost my survival, lets talk around the fire..." Just aint gonna happen 100% of the time, ya know?

I agree that things would be different in a post apocalyptic world, and what I meant by RL is that "RL if it were post apocalyptic".

[Salvadore]

I agree that things would be different in a post apocalyptic world, and what I meant by RL is that "RL if it were post apocalyptic".

Gotchya, glad we can speak on the same level, unlike some of the other playerbase around here.

It just doesnt seem logical, while everyone is out for survival, that there wouldnt be tribes attempting to take EVERYTHING from others...even their lives, homes, etc.

[Xidian]

Gotchya, glad we can speak on the same level, unlike some of the other playerbase around here.

It just doesnt seem logical, while everyone is out for survival, that there wouldnt be tribes attempting to take EVERYTHING from others...even their lives, homes, etc.

The only thing that makes me iffy is the whole tribal seiging thing, if you were in a post apocalyptic world you would have someone on watch at the tribe at all times and people would only leave to get supplies and such. This is a game, so you cannot have that. That's why I think tribal safezones are good.

[Salvadore]

The only thing that makes me iffy is the whole tribal seiging thing, if you were in a post apocalyptic world you would have someone on watch at the tribe at all times and people would only leave to get supplies and such. This is a game, so you cannot have that. That's why I think tribal safezones are good.

Right on, I agree with you. Now, would you imagine that some other tribe would be VERY interested in another tribes junk pile, especially since theirs is gone? Or another tribes bountiful fishing location, or extremely defensible/strategic location, or even encroachment and overpopulation of their borders? If a tribe has nowhere else to go...what are they going to do? Venture peacefully and nomadically completely across the map to an open area that potentially has less than where they are? Or would they consider taking over (potentially violently) another tribe's area that has mysteriously vacated the premesis? (consider tribes /quitting game here)

I honestly shudder to think of the reality that would really be in the "real world". Consider the conquistadores and native americans for example.

[BigCountry]

This game has some incredible potential. An open world with terraforming has a great deal of appeal. However, if the ability to terraform and create keeps/strongholds is purely for aesthetics, then an incredible opportunity will be lost. A system which allows one to to seek defensible locations for asset creation...but does not also allow some form of competitive asset destruction...will be truly tragic IMHO.

I urge the developers of Xsyon to create a balanced, compelling and entertaining system of both asset construction and destruction. The framework is certainly there...it need only be fleshed out.

Well said.

I think when they release the zombie AI (from the green haze), the AI should target totems. If you have not built walls (mechanism to keep the zombies out), the zombies will destroy your totem (over a balanced time frame or something).

This would warm the players up to what other players will do etc when they remove the safe zones and bring in war and asset destruction.

Sorta thinking mindcraft here.
:D

[Gradishar]

The only thing that makes me iffy is the whole tribal seiging thing, if you were in a post apocalyptic world you would have someone on watch at the tribe at all times and people would only leave to get supplies and such. This is a game, so you cannot have that. That's why I think tribal safezones are good.

I absolutely agree. I played SB in beta when assets could be destroyed 24/7. There was nothing worse than logging in to discovered your city a smoldering ruin because you decided to get some sleep. Assets should be immune from destruction except during designated periods of sieging/warfare/whateveryouwanttocallit. Knowing when you need to defend is essential for maintaining a long term (and happy) player base. However, I am against making such areas generally "safe" from pvp. Does this mean that crafters should be unable to sit inside their cities and weave baskets? No...not at all. If a basket weaver builds walls to keep intruders out...and builds gates that can be locked by the tribe...then (and only then) their village (at least within their walls) WOULD be safe from attackers until the seige/warfare period is initiated. If a crafter does not build such a keep/stronghold/defensive position...than yes...if he's sitting next to his totem making baskets (without walls or a locked gate)...then he should be able to be killed/camped by roving bands of marauders.

I always thought that a post-apocalyptic world carried certain inherent violent implications. I guess I didn't realize post-apocalypse was actually a euphemism for crafters paradise.

[Mitsarugii]

this game has an awesome crafting system, and unbelieveable town creation system and develepment system and MASSIVE potential for a social MMO ... all the tribe warfare and siege blah blah blah blah system will do is discourage ppl from putting any effort into building their townships up.

whats the point of spending time building a spot up into a nice little township if some other tribe of douches can come along and go " ooh u know what, i like the way the flowers grow here and the sun hits the plains so lets walk all over this tribe of 5-10 pplk with our tribe of 100 and claim it as our own because i need a new location to build a summer house" ..... darkfall was a great game and gave u all the options u needed todo something likee this but with Xyson i personally are paying for this game BECAUSE of the crafting system and how u can just build a small town in a spot u find untaken and then craft stuff or hunt monsters etc etc etc

the whole " aaaaaaargh my epeen is bigger then urs and my <<guild> is biggers then yours so i now take all your toys for myself just because i can" style of gameplay is OLD AND FRANKLY BORING. why for ONCE cant we have an awesome game designed for so0cial exploration and play ????? i mean if you are THAT desperate to gang up on ppl and rape their stuff to satisfy your egos then go play EVE or go donate money to Bethesda to win the court case thats stopping them from making Fallout Online

[Xidian]

Okay, I think I agree with the seiging options. The defender should be able to chose the seiging times, also the defender should have an advantage. Like they can shoot attackers from atop their tower. I don't think any seiging equipment should be implemented for AWHILE. That way defenders get an advantage, and once seiging equipment is introduced there needs to be a counter to the seiging equipment to keep it balanced.

[Proto]

I really have hope for this community yet. I honestly do. Its almost like a cute little baby tiger that has the potential to really pwn some peoples faces off...or get caught by a zoo keeper and be caged all day and have cute little stuffed baby tigers for sale all around its safe home and takes pictures with chinese tourists all day.

/sarcasm off

Glad I got so many panties in a bind. Good to see you are all alive and really concerned about this game. Hopefully, in 6 months, many will see the potential that im talking about with siege warfare. So many people get appalled when they see words like "asset destruction" and "ffa pvp".

Stressing it - I'm not personally trying to make this game a clone of any other. I'm simply trying to seek out optimistic ideas and open-minded people that hopefully see how great the potential for this game is. NOT ruin it as a whole regardless of one's own personal beliefs.

hay, enough wit the cats okay? I'm deeply sensitive.

[Proto]

I agree that things would be different in a post apocalyptic world, and what I meant by RL is that "RL if it were post apocalyptic".

I'm glad that you know in a post apoc world, things would be different and not everyone would be fuckin happy happy joy joy with each other singing cumbaya around a campfire.

People would be dying, people would be stealing, people would be doing whatever it takes to survive. I've seen far too many posts going "blah blah you don't know what would happen if there were some crisis apocalypse."

Yeah, we do. Shit would go down hill. It's pretty easy to work it all out.

[Proto]

I absolutely agree. I played SB in beta when assets could be destroyed 24/7. There was nothing worse than logging in to discovered your city a smoldering ruin because you decided to get some sleep. Assets should be immune from destruction except during designated periods of sieging/warfare/whateveryouwanttocallit. Knowing when you need to defend is essential for maintaining a long term (and happy) player base. However, I am against making such areas generally "safe" from pvp. Does this mean that crafters should be unable to sit inside their cities and weave baskets? No...not at all. If a basket weaver builds walls to keep intruders out...and builds gates that can be locked by the tribe...then (and only then) their village (at least within their walls) WOULD be safe from attackers until the seige/warfare period is initiated. If a crafter does not build such a keep/stronghold/defensive position...than yes...if he's sitting next to his totem making baskets (without walls or a locked gate)...then he should be able to be killed/camped by roving bands of marauders.

I always thought that a post-apocalyptic world carried certain inherent violent implications. I guess I didn't realize post-apocalypse was actually a euphemism for crafters paradise.

qft

good post as usual

[ifireallymust]

this game has an awesome crafting system, and unbelieveable town creation system and develepment system and MASSIVE potential for a social MMO ... all the tribe warfare and siege blah blah blah blah system will do is discourage ppl from putting any effort into building their townships up.

whats the point of spending time building a spot up into a nice little township if some other tribe of douches can come along and go " ooh u know what, i like the way the flowers grow here and the sun hits the plains so lets walk all over this tribe of 5-10 pplk with our tribe of 100 and claim it as our own because i need a new location to build a summer house" ..... darkfall was a great game and gave u all the options u needed todo something likee this but with Xyson i personally are paying for this game BECAUSE of the crafting system and how u can just build a small town in a spot u find untaken and then craft stuff or hunt monsters etc etc etc

the whole " aaaaaaargh my epeen is bigger then urs and my <<guild> is biggers then yours so i now take all your toys for myself just because i can" style of gameplay is OLD AND FRANKLY BORING. why for ONCE cant we have an awesome game designed for so0cial exploration and play ????? i mean if you are THAT desperate to gang up on ppl and rape their stuff to satisfy your egos then go play EVE or go donate money to Bethesda to win the court case thats stopping them from making Fallout Online

This is my issue with the whole thing. And I think an easy fix would be to make it so that, no matter how big or small your tribe (right down to the misanthropic mud hut dwelling solo player) if you put in the time, skill, and effort to build fortifications, no tribe, no matter how large, is going to be able to get in.

This need not apply to outposts and settlements in all areas, just the starting ones and whatever land is opened up for starter areas in the future.

Why do I get the feeling the next post will complain this is unrealistic and stupid, numbers always triumph in real life, and no mud hut dwelling misanthrope is going to hold off 100 enemies no matter how well she builds her walls?

Waits...

[Proto]

this game has an awesome crafting system, and unbelieveable town creation system and develepment system and MASSIVE potential for a social MMO ... all the tribe warfare and siege blah blah blah blah system will do is discourage ppl from putting any effort into building their townships up.


I'm sorry Mits, but 6 years of playing Shadowbane, a game with regular city construction and asset destruction, proves you wrong in that it discourages people from putting any effort into building their towns up. SB was possibly the best (imo the best) city building and sieging game to have hit the market, and regardless that any city on the map could be torn down, people NEVER stopped building them, NEVER stopped upgarding them. Hell, even in Darkfall they kept building, and that game was terribad.

Now I'm not saying that pvp won't discourage people from building their cities here, it probably will, I've noticed that there's some pretty weak minded folks here, but my experience in SB proves your statement otherwise.

[Bridger]

I suppose I'm what the uber-warriors would call a stone carebear. As I've already said elsewhere, personally I have no interest in PvP. I'm not good at it. I don't get much enjoyment out of it. I'd rather build than destroy.

But that being said...

I don't want to see a PvP-less Xsyon. I don't want to see that because building without risk of destruction will quickly become an empty, boring pursuit. Perfect safety would drain all the purpose out of construction and creation.

As I see it, the trick is to balance the risk against the reward. If I can build a beautiful sandcastle only to have the first mindless bully to come along kick it down, what's my motivation to build another? (Assuming I'm not a masochist, which I'm not.) But if I can build a beautiful sandcastle that is safe from destruction, and then use it as a base from which to move down the beach to try and build another... and if some bully does kick that one down... Well, then I have a choice don't I? I can go back to my safe, beautiful creation and hide in the shadows and eventually get bored to the point that I risk another attempt at building that second castle down the beach. Or maybe I can content myself with making buckets and shovels (and swords and spears) and supplying them to the more adventurous types who get enjoyment out of building sandcastles further down the beach and then defending them.

Now I realize there would have to be some details worked out. But I don't see why this wouldn't be a workable core model for Xsyon. It works pretty well for EVE Online, anyway.

And speaking of workable mechanics and borrowing from EVE, that could be a solution for the question of how siege warfare would work in Xsyon. Make besieging a fortified position a protracted affair, just like it is in the real world. You don't destroy a fortified position in a matter of minutes. At the very least - and perhaps depending on the level of fortification present - you'd be talking a matter of hours.

Perhaps even days.

[Marcus]

I'm sorry Mits, but 6 years of playing Shadowbane, a game with regular city construction and asset destruction, proves you wrong in that it discourages people from putting any effort into building their towns up. SB was possibly the best (imo the best) city building and sieging game to have hit the market, and regardless that any city on the map could be torn down, people NEVER stopped building them, NEVER stopped upgarding them. Hell, even in Darkfall they kept building, and that game was terribad.

Now I'm not saying that pvp won't discourage people from building their cities here, it probably will, I've noticed that there's some pretty weak minded folks here, but my experience in SB proves your statement otherwise.

And Shadowbane went free to play in what? 3 years? closed down 3 years later? What was the height of the playerbase for it? i honestly don't know.

Look I'm not saying that destroyable assets are a bad thing, and i like the idea, to an extent, but using Shadowbane as an example, seems somewhat silly to me. Can they take what Shadowbane started and work with it? sure. But its sorta obvious thats not exactly the road you want to go down, especially with a game so deep in crafting as this one. Shadowbane was created for PvPers, that was obvious, this game seems to cater to something different.

As someone pointed out to me, take a look at the features page, and see how much PvP it alludes to as compared to crafting and building...

http://xsyon.com/features

Trying to make this game Shadowbane 2.0 i would think is against what that features page has in mind.. I'm not a "carebear", and i like pvp (with a purpose), I'm just not sure a lot of people know what they are getting into here. Destroyable assets sounds great to me, I just don't think that most of the people that want it, are going to get it in the aspect they wish.....

just my opinion.

[Bridger]

As someone pointed out to me,take a look at the features page, and show much how much PvP it alludes to as compared to crafting and building...


This, together with that interview comment in which Jooky states his vision for the game and the secondary role he sees PvP playing in it, is a very good point that seems to get (conveniently?) over-looked a lot. At least by some folks.

[Bridger]

... If a tribe has nowhere else to go...what are they going to do? Venture peacefully and nomadically completely across the map to an open area that potentially has less than where they are? ...

Salvadore,

This is a good point. But I think in asking it the way you are, you're missing the obvious, easily-implemented answer.

What if that newly-opened frontier has more to offer than the now depleted, 'civilized' areas? What if you can hunker down safe and secure in your lake-side territory, but the price for that is stagnation for want of opportunity and resources? Sure, it's a choice you can make. And who knows? Maybe you can make a go of it by being so good at trade and manufacture that you can survive by getting the more adventurous types to bring you those resources and opportunities you need.

Or maybe there's a sort of 'care-bear PvP' when, if you're not successful enough at that kind of 'civilized competition', the only other choice open to you is to 'grow a pair' and get out into the dangerous frontier yourself.

[coca]

I think you should be able to knock down what you want, when you want it, without much consequence. However to destroy a totem and remove a tribe by force you must officially declare a war. You must knock down their totem. Totem destruction should only be allowed at certain times. I like the idea of that time being totally random. Maybe have a message that tribes with active wars will have their totems vulnerable for the next 3 hours. Even the amount of time not just the time itself should be random. .. the totems might go vulnerable for 10 minutes or several hours. It might be vulnerable one day at 6 pm eastern the next at 7:30 am the next day. They should only be vulnerable to the warring tribes.
This will also prevent the whole server for showing up to an event because there will be multiple unplanned events during the same time. I don't think the whole server should get a war warning like in darkfall. The only ones that should get a heads up about a war is the two tribes that are involved, or people they have physically told.

This system willl make removing a tribe by combat difficult enough that it isn't done on a whim but easy enough for a well thought out plan and strategy along with some luck to make it happen. It will allow for other tribes to fight in an area.. do a little destruction without having their totem destroyed.

Just some thoughts out loud. A system like that would be pretty innovative. Does this sound remotely fair or fun to anyone else?

[BigCountry]

You people all need to take a good hard look at the image at the top of this Web page. Like most sandboxes, this game will revolve around PvP in the end.

[bruisie159]

You people all need to take a good hard look at the image at the top of this Web page. Like most sandboxes, this game will revolve around PvP in the end.

Someone better tell Jooky. Now he has incliuded that picture at the top of the page he must change his whole vision for the game. Damn he must be so annoyed that a picture over rules the games creators plans for what we have in store later on.

[Redemp]

I'm all about discussion on this as I would enjoy the pvp systems to fleshed out a bit more, a little more risk without encumbering those in the community who do not wish for it all day long like the rest of us.

I will however point out that the rallying cry of a games destruction is normally that "carebears" whined for to many changes which altered the on track design direction of the Developer team. I think the hardcore pvpers are doing the same thing here, the games not even launched yet. There is a common ground where design direction meets the needs of avid pvpers, and the less inclined.

I do think the majority of you are missing the point that this is not a PvP game, its a sandbox with pvp, they aren't the same thing.

[Bridger]

Someone better tell Jooky. Now he has incliuded that picture at the top of the page he must change his whole vision for the game. Damn he must be so annoyed that a picture over rules the games creators plans for what we have in store later on.

What's worse is the confusion caused by those two cooperating bear hunters on the log-in page. Shouldn't they be depicted as being at each other's throats fighting over the bear?

[BigCountry]

What's worse is the confusion caused by those two cooperating bear hunters on the log-in page. Shouldn't they be depicted as being at each other's throats fighting over the bear?

One has his hands down his pants.....not good!
:D

[coca]

think about my system and flame me some..

I want some input..

I think it would be a rush logging in to find you had 20 minutes left to knock down a totem... and this really annoying crafting guild has been talking junk on the forums how they had the best place to get lavendar fabric. and just to be a dick you want to crush them to keep lavender shirts to a minimum.... so you get on the bat phone have everyone meet up and you CRUSH the CRAFTERS and force them to move to a place that they can only get drab green cloth... and you get to read on the forums the next day about how aweful it is in their "new" home.
and to rub it in.. as much as we hated it.. my tribe could prance around near their "new home" wearing the lavendar shits we looted from them just to rub it in... and we would post screen shots about it.. Thats what I call a fun time.. srsly.

come on chuckle heads .. wake up out there in forum land.. I'm at work bored.

[Redemp]

I don't mind your system Coca , it needs a bit more work and clarification but its a good base ... as a matter of fact thats how I thought the war system would work.
I think asset destruction should be limited to those windows as well though, even being an old school pvper I won't enjoy having my town attacked for the sole purpose of " we just wanted to destroy your stuff". I also think that upon declaring war upon a tribe if those windows are implemented BOTH tribal areas should be open for asset damage and totem destruction. This I attacked and you must defend stuff is for the birds ... I want to see actual repercussion for arbitraily attacking another tribe.

[coca]

Thats what I was thinking.. anyone in a war both ways would be vulnerable during the same time frame.

I could get super refined.. how and when a war could be declared.. if both sides had to "agree to it" if it "costs anything" how long they would last for.. and if a "truce" could be called to end it. This was just some random thoughts hopeing to gauge a basic idea.

Thanks for the input I look forward to hearing more people come up with some stuff.

I just think the randomness of the "totem wars" would be fun and bring another level to the combat and offer the crafter a little more safety then totally opening it up to 100% asset destruction all the time.

[Mitsarugii]

from what i can see all ppl are talking about is a modified or varied system that they use/used ( played it at release and quit a month or so later ) in Darkfall

just jog on back to darkfall if u want that. the game ISNT RELEASED yet, so stop whining about all the pvp changes you want implemented ingame and play iot for what it is when it comes out. they haver said pvp stuff will be coming into the game eventually sao wait and see what they say is gonna happen THEN make comments about it and what u would like to see

[NexAnima]

Thats what I was thinking.. anyone in a war both ways would be vulnerable during the same time frame.

I could get super refined.. how and when a war could be declared.. if both sides had to "agree to it" if it "costs anything" how long they would last for.. and if a "truce" could be called to end it. This was just some random thoughts hopeing to gauge a basic idea.

Thanks for the input I look forward to hearing more people come up with some stuff.

I just think the randomness of the "totem wars" would be fun and bring another level to the combat and offer the crafter a little more safety then totally opening it up to 100% asset destruction all the time.

Here's a hypothetical abuse of the system of war. Tribe 1 wars tribe2, Tribe 2 agrees but not before having a member leave the tribe and set up a homestead. Thus before the war actually happens all supplies are moved from tribe 2 to the homestead. leading to the destruction of a ghost town.

[BigCountry]

Here's a hypothetical abuse of the system of war. Tribe 1 wars tribe2, Tribe 2 agrees but not before having a member leave the tribe and set up a homestead. Thus before the war actually happens all supplies are moved from tribe 2 to the homestead. leading to the destruction of a ghost town.

That woud be fine. It would still be considered a win for Tribe 1. They are after the land. They would place a new totem there.

[Bridger]

How about a system where it costs the aggressor as much to knock something down as it takes the defender to build it in the first place? Again, I point to the successful EVE Online model. You don't just waltz into a hostile system on the spur of the moment because you have a sudden itch to 'knock shit down.' If you try that in an even marginally organized hostile system, you get your head handed to you on a stick. (And if the hostile system isn't even marginally organized... well, maybe there's a lesson to be learned from that too.)

I'll say again what's been said several times already: IF the PvP is for a purpose, IF it's true competition with victory going to the better prepared, better organized contender - aggressor or defender - IF the system takes into account the fact that to have carebears supporting your war economy, you have to make some allowances for their orientation toward something other than 'all war, all the time', then I'll be here for a while. But if Xsyon becomes just another gratification fix for people who only want to 'knock shit down' because it makes them feel like they've accomplished something, do it without me.

[NexAnima]

How about a system where it costs the aggressor as much to knock something down as it takes the defender to build it in the first place? Again, I point to the successful EVE Online model. You don't just waltz into a hostile system on the spur of the moment because you have a sudden itch to 'knock shit down.' If you try that in an even marginally organized hostile system, you get your head handed to you on a stick. (And if the hostile system isn't even marginally organized... well, maybe there's a lesson to be learned from that too.)

I'll say again what's been said several times already: IF the PvP is for a purpose, IF it's true competition with victory going to the better prepared, better organized contender - aggressor or defender - IF the system takes into account the fact that to have carebears supporting your war economy, you have to make some allowances for their orientation toward something other than 'all war, all the time', then I'll be here for a while. But if Xsyon becomes just another gratification fix for people who only want to 'knock shit down' because it makes them feel like they've accomplished something, do it without me.


Eve has turrets, we should have War Bears!

[chaosegg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4

That is all.
YAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

@OP:
I am concerned with the balance of not being able to lose or get rid of totems as well.
What if someone doesn't log in for a week? Weeks? Month, months? Seems a waste that someone can't take/use the space.

EVE-Online is the best example I can think of, so if you don't know how territory works in EVE then sorry cause I am not going to write it all out here,
but basically if you don't log in and fuel something, or flip a few switches once in a while, you lose your claim.

Also, in a good game (sandbox or otherwise) you have people who make things (metaphysical things like attack/defense or more physical items), but there is a purpose to making them because you actually need them for something (warfare/survival against people, environment etc).

[BigCountry]

How about a system where it costs the aggressor as much to knock something down as it takes the defender to build it in the first place?

Why have terraforming then? Just make everything static.

The terraforming and construction is the kicker here. It's what makes this so cool and strategic, regardless of tribal war numbers (players).

[Dubanka]

And Shadowbane went free to play in what? 3 years? closed down 3 years later? What was the height of the playerbase for it? i honestly don't know.

Look I'm not saying that destroyable assets are a bad thing, and i like the idea, to an extent, but using Shadowbane as an example, seems somewhat silly to me. Can they take what Shadowbane started and work with it? sure. But its sorta obvious thats not exactly the road you want to go down, especially with a game so deep in crafting as this one. Shadowbane was created for PvPers, that was obvious, this game seems to cater to something different.
.....
Destroyable assets sounds great to me, I just don't think that most of the people that want it, are going to get it in the aspect they wish.....

justt my opinion.

Shadowbane released as a top 10 pc game in 2003...was trying to google the number, but havent quite tracked it down, but i want to say box saless were in the neighborhood of 300K copies within the first week of release. THis was good, but also horribly horribly bad since the servers/code couldnt handle the level of people that descended upon the game. From a box sale perspective the game was a hit. Free to play occurred in 2006, after the TOO expansion (puke). And the game went on to live 3 more years closing in July of 2009.

Defining the 'who' this game caters to is actually an interesting discussion unto itself...simultaneously a fundamental strength and weakness of the game.
Crafter: IT CATERS TO ME!! Look at all the crafting stuff!!
Builder: NO TO ME!! Terraforming! Walls! I can build a kingdom!!
Carebear: *sigh* cant we all just get along? I want to explore and smell the flowers, tame bambi and live a life of peaceful introspection...mmmmmmmm...The combat system is barely developed, so this game can't be about pvp.
PVPr: Uh, i'm here to kill you. FFA World, promised tribal warfare, look at all these weapon and armor options...hmm, we can build walls, that must mean we will be able to rip them down. Sweet. it's obvious this game was built for me.

We're all seeing what we want to see in the sandbox...which is fantastic.

Hopefull the devs have the skill and energy to find a balance to cater to all the audience that is projecting themselves into the game...We'll see.

as a side note, from a market standpoint...the sbemu project at 1,623 'active' members registered on their forums (over 12k total, but bots and all that so that isn't a real number). For every one of those active members, there are probably 5-7 that they have access to (guilds, etc.)/ influence with. Thats a captive audience that currently has nothing worthwhile/satisfactory to play who is WAITING for the 'game' to be made. No, those are not WoW numbers, this is not wow.

Finally

...personally I have no interest in PvP. I'm not good at it. I don't get much enjoyment out of it. I'd rather build than destroy.

Do you have any idea how much pvp groups LOVE dedicated craft people? City builders? Farmers? And i'm not talking about as prey, i'm talking about on their own side. If you ENJOY building cities and walls and terraforming and making the ultimate indestructible, unseigable fortress...that means we can leave it to you and go out and kill stuff.

One of the misconceptions in this game, already, is the pvp and the craft elements are mutually exclusively...Your pvp tribes that are in it (hopefully) for the tribal warfare element will be just as skilled and focused on the craft element as anyone else in the game. It brings a competetive edge to have the absolute best stuff (once 'stuff' actually works :p ) possible.

You want all the raw materials you can get your hands on? You want tell the L337s what to do? get on board, and tell them you need x, y, and z ingredients in whatever quantities and THEN you'll be able to make them the legendary armor of uberdom. It's even better if ingredient z is only found on somebody elses land. You get to craft to your heart's content, pvprs get to kill people and take their stuff, win win. Hopefully the end result is that someone gets mad enough to come try to burn down your uber fortress (then you can laugh at their feeble skills from atop the walls you built).

If done right it will will all tie seamlessly together.

[Bridger]

Why have terraforming then? Just make everything static.

I guess I don't understand the question. You have terraforming so you can alter the terrain to your eventual tactical advantage. You have terraforming so you can raise defensive berms and build moats - along with other, less combat-oriented things. And if, as an aggressor, it doesn't cost you something to overcome all the defender's terraforming efforts - things like having to build and then drag huge, vulnerable siege engines and scaling ladders and moat bridging equipment and so forth to the enemy's gates and then defend it while you're trying to get it into operation, and bring superior numbers to overcome the tactical advantage fixed fortifications are supposed to provide (that's sort of why you build them) - then yes, I would agree that terraforming is indeed pointless.

That's what I mean by 'make it cost the aggressor as much effort to knock something down as it originally took the defender to build it'.

[Salvadore]

I suppose I'm what the uber-warriors would call a stone carebear. As I've already said elsewhere, personally I have no interest in PvP. I'm not good at it. I don't get much enjoyment out of it. I'd rather build than destroy.

But that being said...

I don't want to see a PvP-less Xsyon. I don't want to see that because building without risk of destruction will quickly become an empty, boring pursuit. Perfect safety would drain all the purpose out of construction and creation.

As I see it, the trick is to balance the risk against the reward. If I can build a beautiful sandcastle only to have the first mindless bully to come along kick it down, what's my motivation to build another? (Assuming I'm not a masochist, which I'm not.) But if I can build a beautiful sandcastle that is safe from destruction, and then use it as a base from which to move down the beach to try and build another... and if some bully does kick that one down... Well, then I have a choice don't I? I can go back to my safe, beautiful creation and hide in the shadows and eventually get bored to the point that I risk another attempt at building that second castle down the beach. Or maybe I can content myself with making buckets and shovels (and swords and spears) and supplying them to the more adventurous types who get enjoyment out of building sandcastles further down the beach and then defending them.

Now I realize there would have to be some details worked out. But I don't see why this wouldn't be a workable core model for Xsyon. It works pretty well for EVE Online, anyway.

And speaking of workable mechanics and borrowing from EVE, that could be a solution for the question of how siege warfare would work in Xsyon. Make besieging a fortified position a protracted affair, just like it is in the real world. You don't destroy a fortified position in a matter of minutes. At the very least - and perhaps depending on the level of fortification present - you'd be talking a matter of hours.

Perhaps even days.

This fella gets it!

A big aspect to your sandcastle metaphore...one word: politics!

That is where your campfire friendships, trade agreements, mutual defence contacts, mercs for hire, and all of those other options come into play.

Id give you a case of beer in game if we could craft it yet simply for being optimistic! Thank you!

[Dubanka]

the attacker should absolutely have to build war engines to break walls.
battering rams, trebs, catapults.
tactically the defender should be slashing and burning all resources in the window immediately prior to a seige to force the attacker to have to import the materials to build their 'machines of war'.

that would be awesome.

seiging a city should not be an easy task. It shoudl in fact be incredibly difficult, and should, like the rest of the game, be reliant upon logistics, and crafting, to do it successfully. Hannibal could not take Rome because he lacked seige equipment. Thems the breaks. Walls > barbarians.

[BigCountry]

I guess I don't understand the question. You have terraforming so you can alter the terrain to your eventual tactical advantage. You have terraforming so you can raise defensive berms and build moats - along with other, less combat-oriented things. And if, as an aggressor, it doesn't cost you something to overcome all the defender's terraforming efforts - things like having to build and then drag huge, vulnerable siege engines and scaling ladders and moat bridging equipment and so forth to the enemy's gates and then defend it while you're trying to get it into operation, and bring superior numbers to overcome the tactical advantage fixed fortifications are supposed to provide (that's sort of why you build them) - then yes, I would agree that terraforming is indeed pointless.

That's what I mean by 'make it cost the aggressor as much effort to knock something down as it originally took the defender to build it'.

Gotcha.

[Bridger]

... Finally

Do you have any idea how much pvp groups LOVE dedicated craft people? City builders? Farmers? And i'm not talking about as prey, i'm talking about on their own side. If you ENJOY building cities and walls and terraforming and making the ultimate indestructible, unseigable fortress...that means we can leave it to you and go out and kill stuff ...

Actually, yes - I do know how much some dedicated PvP-ers - usually the more mature ones - appreciate dedicated crafters. (I'm one of the humble drones in a construction corporation in EVE. We feed the war machine and are universally loved and appreciated by our alliance's combat fleets for our efforts. I get to do what I like to do, and as a result they get to do what they like to do. Win/win all around.)

Also, as I sort of hinted in my prior post, the more mature crafters usually appreciate that kind of mature PvP to the same extent. Building something with no purpose other than to build it, and with no risk to it once it's made, inevitably becomes a dull, empty exercise in rote repetition. I'm no more interested in that than I am in paying a monthly subscription fee so I can build sand castles for mindless bullies to destroy.

The problem - and I'm sorry, but all the rationalizations and posturing aside this is the simple truth - is that not all PvP-ers are mature enough to appreciate the symbiotic relationship you and I recognize. They are in it for the quick gratification of 'knocking shit down cuz I can.' That's a dead end. Eventually the crafters come to realize they're paying a monthly subscription so some asshat can get his jollies by being an asshat and there goes not only a subscription, but the contribution that 'carebear' is bringing to the game in the form of something more than 'all war, all the time.' This being so, the trick for the developers is to create a game mechanic that nurtures the kind of mature PvP you and I both want, while at the same time restraining the immature punks.

[Bridger]

...

A big aspect to your sandcastle metaphore...one word: politics!

That is where your campfire friendships, trade agreements, mutual defence contacts, mercs for hire, and all of those other options come into play.
...

Clearly, I'm not the only one who 'gets it' either. :) A big 'yes' to everything you say.

[Bridger]

Thems the breaks. Walls > barbarians.

Until I invent gunpowder. :eek:

[Dubanka]

The problem - and I'm sorry, but all the rationalizations and posturing aside this is the simple truth - is that not all PvP-ers are mature enough to appreciate the symbiotic relationship you and I recognize. They are in it for the quick gratification of 'knocking shit down cuz I can.' That's a dead end. Eventually the crafters come to realize they're paying a monthly subscription so some asshat can get his jollies by being an asshat and there goes not only a subscription, but the contribution that 'carebear' is bringing to the game in the form of something more than 'all war, all the time.' This being so, the trick for the developers is to create a game mechanic that nurtures the kind of mature PvP you and I both want, while at the same time restraining the immature punks.

I agree with you. Fortunately, at least in my experience, this 'gank window' is usually only prevalent at the very outset of a game (when throwaway startup toons are all equally powerful). As soon as we step past the immediate settlement issue, what SHOULD happen, is we will move into an environment of who can craft and build the fastest, and then make that translate into territorial / pvp dominance. HOPEFULLY the gear equation will be 'fixed' to some degree so that will come to pass.

If we remain in a Nekkid+PO weapon = best solution, we've obviously got a huge gameplay problem (to the point, a large portion of my group is really 'meh' about the game right now because of that massive problem...there is no point to doing anything if the best solution is what you were borne with).

So, if they get their basic mechanics that are currently in game fixed (not even talking about fixing the wonky combat system), the ubergank issue should be but an annoyance (heyena's and jackals picking off the unwary/unprepared). I don't want the devs restraining them. I'd prefer to have the tools to do it myself...the only thing the devs need to do is make their systems work :)

[Bridger]

Dubanka,

Indeed, I think you and I are reading from the same page. One point though: "Hyenas and jackals picking off the unwary/unprepared" - provisionally yes, dependent upon just how prevalent the problem is. If I get ganked every time I step outside the walls by a pack of nekkid slap fighters, nope. Not interested. If, on the other hand, I get complacent to the point that every once in a while I get successfully mugged on the highway by a hairy barbarian... 'Note to self: hire some dependable mercenaries for the next trade caravan.'

[Dubanka]

Dubanka,

Indeed, I think you and I are reading from the same page. One point though: "Hyenas and jackals picking off the unwary/unprepared" - provisionally yes, dependent upon just how prevalent the problem is. If I get ganked every time I step outside the walls by a pack of nekkid slap fighters, nope. Not interested. If, on the other hand, I get complacent to the point that every once in a while I get successfully mugged on the highway by a hairy barbarian... 'Note to self: hire some dependable mercenaries for the next trade caravan.'

That's the point of the tribe/clan system tho.

Situation: bad guys in the trash pile.

/t bad guys - looks like 2 or 3- in the trash pile. make them go away please
/t [uberleetpvpguy1] sweet on it
/t [uberleetpvpguy2] dude wait for me i need some stam
/t [therealdealuberleetdude] uh sorry guys, they were just wannabe ganks...killed em already...

now if you're trying to play the game solo...obviously you've got a potential problem (unless you are, in fact the uberl337 craftingpvpwunderkid)...but that's a road you've chosen.

[NexAnima]

That's the point of the tribe/clan system tho.

Situation: bad guys in the trash pile.

/t bad guys - looks like 2 or 3- in the trash pile. make them go away please
/t [uberleetpvpguy1] sweet on it
/t [uberleetpvpguy2] dude wait for me i need some stam
/t [therealdealuberleetdude] uh sorry guys, they were just wannabe ganks...killed em already...

now if you're trying to play the game solo...obviously you've got a potential problem (unless you are, in fact the uberl337 craftingpvpwunderkid)...but that's a road you've chosen.

But the reality of the situation if left unchecked:

Situation: go out to scavenge

/t bag guys - looks like 2 or 3 - they're naked
/t tribesmen- on the way
/t tribesmeN- OHSHI HERE COMES ANOTHER 7 ALSO NAKID
ZERGRUSH!!!1ONE
/y zerg- KEKEKEKEKEKE
rinse and repeat...

[kleetus]

I just wanna know when I can go VC on the PvPers asses? and by VC I mean Viet Cong.. I want pungee sticks.. I want gigantic log traps that spring out and impale you on a 30 foot sharpened log, I want tunnels... I want it all.. and the ability to make animals out of scrap and set them loose to do my bidding..

also it would be cool if I could enslave pvpers and gankers who come on my territory, then make them do gather quests to win their freedom..

and a fish made from bacon while im asking for stuff.

[Marcus]

Shadowbane released as a top 10 pc game in 2003...was trying to google the number, but havent quite tracked it down, but i want to say box saless were in the neighborhood of 300K copies within the first week of release. THis was good, but also horribly horribly bad since the servers/code couldnt handle the level of people that descended upon the game. From a box sale perspective the game was a hit. Free to play occurred in 2006, after the TOO expansion (puke). And the game went on to live 3 more years closing in July of 2009.

Defining the 'who' this game caters to is actually an interesting discussion unto itself...simultaneously a fundamental strength and weakness of the game.
Crafter: IT CATERS TO ME!! Look at all the crafting stuff!!
Builder: NO TO ME!! Terraforming! Walls! I can build a kingdom!!
Carebear: *sigh* cant we all just get along? I want to explore and smell the flowers, tame bambi and live a life of peaceful introspection...mmmmmmmm...The combat system is barely developed, so this game can't be about pvp.
PVPr: Uh, i'm here to kill you. FFA World, promised tribal warfare, look at all these weapon and armor options...hmm, we can build walls, that must mean we will be able to rip them down. Sweet. it's obvious this game was built for me.

We're all seeing what we want to see in the sandbox...which is fantastic.

Hopefull the devs have the skill and energy to find a balance to cater to all the audience that is projecting themselves into the game...We'll see.

as a side note, from a market standpoint...the sbemu project at 1,623 'active' members registered on their forums (over 12k total, but bots and all that so that isn't a real number). For every one of those active members, there are probably 5-7 that they have access to (guilds, etc.)/ influence with. Thats a captive audience that currently has nothing worthwhile/satisfactory to play who is WAITING for the 'game' to be made. No, those are not WoW numbers, this is not wow.

.
I completley agree with you here.

It really seems that a lot of people read/hear, full loot PvP and come in with the preconcieved notion they can do anything and everything they want, because its a sandbox, and fail to look at the features section of this website.

Since the release of Shadowbane, "sandbox" has become a "niche'" market, perhaps in part because of said preconcieved notions, i don't know. Someone really need to step outside the (sand)box, and see where they can take this "niche'" market, because honestly, i don't think i can stand another themepark MMO, or "play to crush" sandbox game. I've been through enough of them.

As you alluded to, these guys seem to be trying to balance it out, and I honestly hope it works for them.

[NexAnima]

I completley agree with you here.

It really seems that a lot of people read/hear, full loot PvP and come in with the preconcieved notion they can do anything and everything they want, because its a sandbox, and fail to look at the features section of this website.

Since the release of Shadowbane, "sandbox" has become a "niche'" market, perhaps in part because of said preconcieved notions, i don't know. Someone really need to step outside the (sand)box, and see where they can take this "niche'" market, because honestly, i don't think i can stand another themepark MMO, or "play to crush" sandbox game. I've been through enough of them.

As you alluded to, these guys seem to be trying to balance it out, and I honestly hope it works for them.

All you need to do is look to early UO (ultima online), It was great till they made it "safer". Pks use to sit on the edge of the brit brige and the newbs would stand on the other side debating if they should try to run through them. Then the Anti-Pks would catch wind of this and rush forth and battle the Pks. All was right in the world, and everyone had fun.

[Marcus]

All you need to do is look to early UO (ultima online), It was great till they made it "safer". Pks use to sit on the edge of the brit brige and the newbs would stand on the other side debating if they should try to run through them. Then the Anti-Pks would catch wind of this and rush forth and battle the Pks. All was right in the world, and everyone had fun.


I had an anti-pk in UO. I don't really remember it being that cut and dry, especially for the guys on the bridge debating......

[NexAnima]

I had an anti-pk in UO. I don't really remember it being that cut and dry, especially for the guys on the bridge debating......

I do, since I was one of them once. Was it fun being the newb? Well, yea it was, it was a rush getting past the Pks by sneaking by when the Antis came. And then I got smarter and found other ways around it. Thats the thing about memories, they are subjective...

[coca]

I guess I don't understand the question. You have terraforming so you can alter the terrain to your eventual tactical advantage. You have terraforming so you can raise defensive berms and build moats - along with other, less combat-oriented things. And if, as an aggressor, it doesn't cost you something to overcome all the defender's terraforming efforts - things like having to build and then drag huge, vulnerable siege engines and scaling ladders and moat bridging equipment and so forth to the enemy's gates and then defend it while you're trying to get it into operation, and bring superior numbers to overcome the tactical advantage fixed fortifications are supposed to provide (that's sort of why you build them) - then yes, I would agree that terraforming is indeed pointless.

That's what I mean by 'make it cost the aggressor as much effort to knock something down as it originally took the defender to build it'.

None of your post matters if pvp isn't a HUGE factor in the game.... you say you don't want hardcore pvp.. but without it why would you be building up defenses and stratigic things? I am confused..

[coca]

Actually, yes - I do know how much some dedicated PvP-ers - usually the more mature ones - appreciate dedicated crafters. (I'm one of the humble drones in a construction corporation in EVE. We feed the war machine and are universally loved and appreciated by our alliance's combat fleets for our efforts. I get to do what I like to do, and as a result they get to do what they like to do. Win/win all around.)

Also, as I sort of hinted in my prior post, the more mature crafters usually appreciate that kind of mature PvP to the same extent. Building something with no purpose other than to build it, and with no risk to it once it's made, inevitably becomes a dull, empty exercise in rote repetition. I'm no more interested in that than I am in paying a monthly subscription fee so I can build sand castles for mindless bullies to destroy.

The problem - and I'm sorry, but all the rationalizations and posturing aside this is the simple truth - is that not all PvP-ers are mature enough to appreciate the symbiotic relationship you and I recognize. They are in it for the quick gratification of 'knocking shit down cuz I can.' That's a dead end. Eventually the crafters come to realize they're paying a monthly subscription so some asshat can get his jollies by being an asshat and there goes not only a subscription, but the contribution that 'carebear' is bringing to the game in the form of something more than 'all war, all the time.' This being so, the trick for the developers is to create a game mechanic that nurtures the kind of mature PvP you and I both want, while at the same time restraining the immature punks.

Or we "PK's" are out risking our reputation.. gear and time to kill fockers, ultimately to have you crafters be able to make things you couldn't make without us supplying the items to make it with. Because you either didn't have the skill, the ability to get it , or you would rather sit in your city then the stuff yourself.


You can look at it either way.. I'm just playing devils advocate. This type of game needs people to rely on each other for things.. it plays to people strength and weaknesses and to their gaming desires. Its sand box.. thats how it is meant to be.

The reason the pvpers are being loud and talking alot is because so far we haven't gotten any attention... the crafting system looks somewhat stable.. alot of options and focus has gone into it so far.. we want to see if we have a place in this game or not and we want to make sure we are represented and our ideas are taken into consideration when the code is writen.

[coca]

I just wanna know when I can go VC on the PvPers asses? and by VC I mean Viet Cong.. I want pungee sticks.. I want gigantic log traps that spring out and impale you on a 30 foot sharpened log, I want tunnels... I want it all.. and the ability to make animals out of scrap and set them loose to do my bidding..

also it would be cool if I could enslave pvpers and gankers who come on my territory, then make them do gather quests to win their freedom..

and a fish made from bacon while im asking for stuff.


I'm good with anything that has bacon involved. The tunnels and traps would be pretty damn cool too.

[Gradishar]

Finally

Do you have any idea how much pvp groups LOVE dedicated craft people? City builders? Farmers? And i'm not talking about as prey, i'm talking about on their own side. If you ENJOY building cities and walls and terraforming and making the ultimate indestructible, unseigable fortress...that means we can leave it to you and go out and kill stuff.

One of the misconceptions in this game, already, is the pvp and the craft elements are mutually exclusively...Your pvp tribes that are in it (hopefully) for the tribal warfare element will be just as skilled and focused on the craft element as anyone else in the game. It brings a competetive edge to have the absolute best stuff (once 'stuff' actually works :p ) possible.



You are absolutely correct Dubs. I am not a good pvper...frankly, I suck. However, I do get off on building fortresses and anticipating offensive/defensive tactics. In SB I built over 30 cities over a roughly 8 year period. Some of my designs were crap...some were works of art...some were incredibly effective...some were like swiss cheese. I enjoyed building each and every one of them. To me, the building of a fortress was more fun than the actual pvp in defending or tearing one down. Now, if my designs were never tested...if there was never an opportunity to see if that double wall vs triple wall..or inset cross or triple gatehouse..was effective or not...I would have lost an incredible opportunity as a city designer and as a gamer. If aesthetics is all this game is about...making pretty villages that look like they would be defensible...but are never actually ever attacked...than this is clearly not the game for me. Sims can certainly be entertaining games....just as an etchasketch can be a lot of fun for a while...but creating a fortress on an etchasketch ...to display for anyone who wanders by...would be a tragic and disappointing missed opportunity for Xyson IMHO.

[Proto]

from what i can see all ppl are talking about is a modified or varied system that they use/used ( played it at release and quit a month or so later ) in Darkfall

just jog on back to darkfall if u want that. the game ISNT RELEASED yet, so stop whining about all the pvp changes you want implemented ingame and play iot for what it is when it comes out. they haver said pvp stuff will be coming into the game eventually sao wait and see what they say is gonna happen THEN make comments about it and what u would like to see

I'm sorry but this is just a blatantly dumb post. I think you're trolling but that's okay, I'm not the sort to turn someone in.

It's absolutely ridiculous for you to posit the notion that one should wait for something to be implemented before we are allowed to have suggestions on what would make a good system. Maybe your suggestion would be less ridiculous had we some idea of the type of system the dev guy plans on but we don't, so given that and the fact that I've spent money on this game, I damn well intend to try and get the most out of it that I can which will make me the most happy.

[Proto]

Shadowbane released as a top 10 pc game in 2003...was trying to google the number, but havent quite tracked it down, but i want to say box saless were in the neighborhood of 300K copies within the first week of release. THis was good, but also horribly horribly bad since the servers/code couldnt handle the level of people that descended upon the game. From a box sale perspective the game was a hit. Free to play occurred in 2006, after the TOO expansion (puke). And the game went on to live 3 more years closing in July of 2009.

Defining the 'who' this game caters to is actually an interesting discussion unto itself...simultaneously a fundamental strength and weakness of the game.
Crafter: IT CATERS TO ME!! Look at all the crafting stuff!!
Builder: NO TO ME!! Terraforming! Walls! I can build a kingdom!!
Carebear: *sigh* cant we all just get along? I want to explore and smell the flowers, tame bambi and live a life of peaceful introspection...mmmmmmmm...The combat system is barely developed, so this game can't be about pvp.
PVPr: Uh, i'm here to kill you. FFA World, promised tribal warfare, look at all these weapon and armor options...hmm, we can build walls, that must mean we will be able to rip them down. Sweet. it's obvious this game was built for me.

We're all seeing what we want to see in the sandbox...which is fantastic.

Hopefull the devs have the skill and energy to find a balance to cater to all the audience that is projecting themselves into the game...We'll see.

as a side note, from a market standpoint...the sbemu project at 1,623 'active' members registered on their forums (over 12k total, but bots and all that so that isn't a real number). For every one of those active members, there are probably 5-7 that they have access to (guilds, etc.)/ influence with. Thats a captive audience that currently has nothing worthwhile/satisfactory to play who is WAITING for the 'game' to be made. No, those are not WoW numbers, this is not wow.

Finally

Do you have any idea how much pvp groups LOVE dedicated craft people? City builders? Farmers? And i'm not talking about as prey, i'm talking about on their own side. If you ENJOY building cities and walls and terraforming and making the ultimate indestructible, unseigable fortress...that means we can leave it to you and go out and kill stuff.

One of the misconceptions in this game, already, is the pvp and the craft elements are mutually exclusively...Your pvp tribes that are in it (hopefully) for the tribal warfare element will be just as skilled and focused on the craft element as anyone else in the game. It brings a competetive edge to have the absolute best stuff (once 'stuff' actually works :p ) possible.

You want all the raw materials you can get your hands on? You want tell the L337s what to do? get on board, and tell them you need x, y, and z ingredients in whatever quantities and THEN you'll be able to make them the legendary armor of uberdom. It's even better if ingredient z is only found on somebody elses land. You get to craft to your heart's content, pvprs get to kill people and take their stuff, win win. Hopefully the end result is that someone gets mad enough to come try to burn down your uber fortress (then you can laugh at their feeble skills from atop the walls you built).

If done right it will will all tie seamlessly together.

I'm so glad that you're here to answer these questions more eloquently than I'm willing to (political threads different story).

And to further point regarding SB's life and just a point to throw at Marcus...amidst SB's technical problems which was the biggest downfall of the game, we also had to contend with the release of WoW, I'm sorry but that's not something that any of the latest games out there have had to contend with. I mean the Warcraft universe was already hugely popular and the release put a good size dent in SBs population.

[ifireallymust]

I just wanna know when I can go VC on the PvPers asses? and by VC I mean Viet Cong.. I want pungee sticks.. I want gigantic log traps that spring out and impale you on a 30 foot sharpened log, I want tunnels... I want it all.. and the ability to make animals out of scrap and set them loose to do my bidding..

also it would be cool if I could enslave pvpers and gankers who come on my territory, then make them do gather quests to win their freedom..

and a fish made from bacon while im asking for stuff.

<3

This puts the whole public humiliation in stocks idea to shame. And now I want to see a pker impaled on a 30ft sharpened log.

[Proto]

<3

This puts the whole public humiliation in stocks idea to shame. And now I want to see a pker impaled on a 30ft sharpened log.

Even the PKers would love to see pkers on a pike infront of someone's town.

[Gradishar]

Even the PKers would love to see pkers on a pike infront of someone's town.

QFT

[Marcus]

I'm so glad that you're here to answer these questions more eloquently than I'm willing to (political threads different story).

And to further point regarding SB's life and just a point to throw at Marcus...amidst SB's technical problems which was the biggest downfall of the game, we also had to contend with the release of WoW, I'm sorry but that's not something that any of the latest games out there have had to contend with. I mean the Warcraft universe was already hugely popular and the release put a good size dent in SBs population.

I think that, is in fact part of my point...

before i get started, please, i don't want WoW, or anything like it.. But i also don't think a lot of people want Shadowbane, at least a lot of the folks who purchased this game reading its feature section.

If the game was appealing as most seem to say with its destructable cities, and the like, why didnt they return after trying WoW? WoW was nothing like Shadowbane, probably quite the opposite really. Not that I expect they would all return, or it would get WoW numbers by any stretch, but if it was a decent game, it should have at least survived. There were plenty of others that did.

Like i said earlier, I hope these guys can find that happy medium where both sides can enjoy it...

[Bridger]

The reason the pvpers are being loud and talking alot is because so far we haven't gotten any attention...

My reply to you depends upon what you mean by 'getting any attention.'

If by that you mean that PvP needs more substance and structure and reason for being, I'd probably agree. If you mean a more robust and dynamic combat mechanism, I'd probably agree.

But if you mean, 'the developers aren't changing their concept to fit what we want Xsyon to be versus what they want it to be' then I, for one, hope you never get any attention. That's confrontational and probably not what some folks want to hear, but there it is.

Again, read the features list. Read Jooky's interview where he states, pretty unambiguously, that PvP exists to serve the over-arching concept of rebuilding society after Armeggedon. That is; Xsyon is primarily about crafting and politics and invention and progress and all the scorned in some circles 'carebear' stuff. Not the other way around. Now to be perfectly clear; you need PvP to make all that carebear stuff ultimately have an edge and a risk. It's symbiotic. In a true sandbox game like Xsyon, either one without the other is ultimately empty. The question is; which drives the other? Which comes first?

Again - I'm pretty confident that Jooky's comments regarding his vision for the game make the answer clear.

Now there's nothing at all in any of that to say that PvP in Xsyon can't be wonderful and fulfilling and full of all sorts of genuinely marvelous opportunities to 'risk your reputation', if that's what you truly want to do. Just look at the previous posts where folks are discussing epic siege warfare and convoluted political intrigue driven maneuvering and so forth and so on. It's only to say that if the attention you're demanding is that the devs turn this into 'I can knock down shit where-ever I want, when-ever I feel like it', I think ... I hope... you're in for a long, disappointing wait.

[byrgar]

My reply to you depends upon what you mean by 'getting any attention.'

If by that you mean that PvP needs more substance and structure and reason for being, I'd probably agree. If you mean a more robust and dynamic combat mechanism, I'd probably agree.

But if you mean, 'the developers aren't changing their concept to fit what we want Xsyon to be versus what they want it to be' then I, for one, hope you never get any attention. That's confrontational and probably not what some folks want to hear, but there it is.

Again, read the features list. Read Jooky's interview where he states, pretty unambiguously, that PvP exists to serve the over-arching concept of rebuilding society after Armeggedon. That is; Xsyon is primarily about crafting and politics and invention and progress and all the scorned in some circles 'carebear' stuff. Not the other way around. Now to be perfectly clear; you need PvP to make all that carebear stuff ultimately have an edge and a risk. It's symbiotic. In a true sandbox game like Xsyon, either one without the other is ultimately empty. The question is; which drives the other? Which comes first?

Again - I'm pretty confident that Jooky's comments regarding his vision for the game make the answer clear.

Now there's nothing at all in any of that to say that PvP in Xsyon can't be wonderful and fulfilling and full of all sorts of genuinely marvelous opportunities to 'risk your reputation', if that's what you truly want to do. Just look at the previous posts where folks are discussing epic siege warfare and convoluted political intrigue driven maneuvering and so forth and so on. It's only to say that if the attention you're demanding is that the devs turn this into 'I can knock down shit where-ever I want, when-ever I feel like it', I think ... I hope... you're in for a long, disappointing wait.

+1
I totally agree.

[Proto]

I think that, is in fact part of my point...

before i get started, please, i don't want WoW, or anything like it.. But i also don't think a lot of people want Shadowbane, at least a lot of the folks who purchased this game reading its feature section.

If the game was appealing as most seem to say with its destructable cities, and the like, why didnt they return after trying WoW? WoW was nothing like Shadowbane, probably quite the opposite really. Not that I expect they would all return, or it would get WoW numbers by any stretch, but if it was a decent game, it should have at least survived. There were plenty of others that did.

Like i said earlier, I hope these guys can find that happy medium where both sides can enjoy it...

People were sick of the technical limitations of Shadowbane, if SB ran lag free without sb.exe errors during large scale fights and they had fixed item/gold duping, the game would have remained pretty active as the combat and seige systems themselves worked well and were mostly importantly, pretty balanced. Though WoW didn't have the asset destruction and whatnot, it was and remains a very polished game, the antithesis of SB.

I think the reason that many of us SBers are vocal about this is that we know the SB system was balanced, we know that it could work in this type of community. For those that didn't play SB, they hear about seiging and whatnot and probably imagine that there was just rampant fighting and it was totally uncontrolled and cities were falling hourly but that wasn't the case. It was generally pretty difficult for the offensive side to win banes, even if heavily outnumbering the defense, which is how it ought to be. None of us SBers at least want 24/7 reckless pvp with seiges every night if the week, shit most of us are too old for that sort of commitment anymore, and we also don't want the battles to be so easy that they become stagnant. I think most of us would probably even be ok with just an inventory loot system liek SB was.

We're not trying to change this game, we're just trying to let the community know that you can have a great pvp and seige system in place even though it may not be the focus of the game. Just because it isn't the focus doesn't mean that it should have crappy mechanics, ya know?

[Marcus]

I like siege and great PvP. Learning from games that have done it, can only be a good thing ;)

[Yuyito]

People were sick of the technical limitations of Shadowbane, if SB ran lag free without sb.exe errors during large scale fights and they had fixed item/gold duping, the game would have remained pretty active as the combat and seige systems themselves worked well and were mostly importantly, pretty balanced. Though WoW didn't have the asset destruction and whatnot, it was and remains a very polished game, the antithesis of SB.

I think the reason that many of us SBers are vocal about this is that we know the SB system was balanced, we know that it could work in this type of community. For those that didn't play SB, they hear about seiging and whatnot and probably imagine that there was just rampant fighting and it was totally uncontrolled and cities were falling hourly but that wasn't the case. It was generally pretty difficult for the offensive side to win banes, even if heavily outnumbering the defense, which is how it ought to be. None of us SBers at least want 24/7 reckless pvp with seiges every night if the week, shit most of us are too old for that sort of commitment anymore, and we also don't want the battles to be so easy that they become stagnant. I think most of us would probably even be ok with just an inventory loot system liek SB was.

We're not trying to change this game, we're just trying to let the community know that you can have a great pvp and seige system in place even though it may not be the focus of the game. Just because it isn't the focus doesn't mean that it should have crappy mechanics, ya know?

QFT!

(Old vet of SB War server)

[Dubanka]

People were sick of the technical limitations of Shadowbane, if SB ran lag free without sb.exe errors during large scale fights and they had fixed item/gold duping, the game would have remained pretty active as the combat and seige systems themselves worked well and were mostly importantly, pretty balanced. Though WoW didn't have the asset destruction and whatnot, it was and remains a very polished game, the antithesis of SB.

I think the reason that many of us SBers are vocal about this is that we know the SB system was balanced, we know that it could work in this type of community. For those that didn't play SB, they hear about seiging and whatnot and probably imagine that there was just rampant fighting and it was totally uncontrolled and cities were falling hourly but that wasn't the case. It was generally pretty difficult for the offensive side to win banes, even if heavily outnumbering the defense, which is how it ought to be. None of us SBers at least want 24/7 reckless pvp with seiges every night if the week, shit most of us are too old for that sort of commitment anymore, and we also don't want the battles to be so easy that they become stagnant. I think most of us would probably even be ok with just an inventory loot system liek SB was.

We're not trying to change this game, we're just trying to let the community know that you can have a great pvp and seige system in place even though it may not be the focus of the game. Just because it isn't the focus doesn't mean that it should have crappy mechanics, ya know?

Preach it proto.

and for the non-sb players...seiging <> losing the seige. Defenders should have the advantage of defensive positions, lay of the land, and logistics. attackers need to bring the party, stretch a logistics train, and thus should have a much more difficult time prosecuting a war. A competent guild in sb. could realistically hope to defend against 1.5:1 odds. 2:1 was possible with a little luck. and there were not too infrequent cases of guilds prevailing defensively against odds greater than 3:1. It should be difficult to take a well built city.

[Dubanka]

My reply to you depends upon what you mean by 'getting any attention.'

If by that you mean that PvP needs more substance and structure and reason for being, I'd probably agree. If you mean a more robust and dynamic combat mechanism, I'd probably agree.

But if you mean, 'the developers aren't changing their concept to fit what we want Xsyon to be versus what they want it to be' then I, for one, hope you never get any attention. That's confrontational and probably not what some folks want to hear, but there it is.

Again, read the features list. Read Jooky's interview where he states, pretty unambiguously, that PvP exists to serve the over-arching concept of rebuilding society after Armeggedon. That is; Xsyon is primarily about crafting and politics and invention and progress and all the scorned in some circles 'carebear' stuff. Not the other way around. Now to be perfectly clear; you need PvP to make all that carebear stuff ultimately have an edge and a risk. It's symbiotic. In a true sandbox game like Xsyon, either one without the other is ultimately empty. The question is; which drives the other? Which comes first?

Again - I'm pretty confident that Jooky's comments regarding his vision for the game make the answer clear.

Now there's nothing at all in any of that to say that PvP in Xsyon can't be wonderful and fulfilling and full of all sorts of genuinely marvelous opportunities to 'risk your reputation', if that's what you truly want to do. Just look at the previous posts where folks are discussing epic siege warfare and convoluted political intrigue driven maneuvering and so forth and so on. It's only to say that if the attention you're demanding is that the devs turn this into 'I can knock down shit where-ever I want, when-ever I feel like it', I think ... I hope... you're in for a long, disappointing wait.

By attention, it's being vocal about the importance of a quality pvp / territorial warfar experience to a large percentage of the audience.

The pve crowd is pretty vocal, and has had it 'their' way for a long time (being the folks that put in the time and effort to get the game to where it is today...thanks for that, truly testing a product can be a pita). However with the influx of new blood, some new(er?) ideas of whats important have come to fore. We see the game as a very capable venue for delivering what we want in a sandbox...we just want to help it flesh out that side of the puzzle.

[orious13]

Well.. I personally always thought a SB 2.0 would be pretty legit. I'd rather people talk about SB than DF any day. Although I often had more fun doing mine def/atks than sieging on account of my other computer.

The number one thing I think about suggestions etc is that you all should create a suggestion for sieges and throw up a thread on the suggestions area. Then you can discuss pros/cons and other fixes. Either this or search for previous mechanics that have already been suggested and build upon those. I'd say that would be much more constructive than this thread. I figure that in a few months after combat is "awesome", Xsyon himself might create a "siege mechanics" thread, thereby, everyone can put in the entire sum of their suggestions on the system. If any of you were following Dawntide, they did this some months ago (and are in open beta/alpha whatever you want to call it atm).

[Doc]

I dont know exactly what Jordi has in store, but part of the desing suggest that initial tribe towns built in prelude wont be conquerable.

Now, before you go in rant mode, consider that Xsyon has no prebuilt towns like other games. In addition to that, it was said current spawn locations will be gone and will be substituted with tribe towns. I always considered that current towns will act like NPC towns in other games. Just player ran. Iirc it was said that after prelude you will probably be able to play the game like quest grinder, visiting towns, taking (player provided) quests at totems.

Territorial conquest can be pretty much achieved by expansion totems and claiming addtional land for tribe, probably on locations with new/high/rare resources, on which you can build sand castles to be sieged and conquered. Initial towns should provide small amount of basic resources so tribe that went down can slowly recuperate and be back in action in resonable amount of time, current towns would provide that. Players do need some permanence and staying power to continue playing. You have to think of system sustainable in the long run, system that wont drive people away.

[Proto]

I don't think you'll find many of us who mind that the early months of the game are limited in asset destruction, I mean we like competitive PVP, we don't want it to be easy to waltz to a city and drop it in 10 minutes (generally speaking, there are some exceptions). That being said, what we do want for example, is to be able to at least raid a city, let those owners make it their safehold, don't just cheapen it by having a game mechanic do the rightfully tough work for you. From having built cities before, it's a good feeling to make it a strong, defensively sound city! I think the anti-pvp crowd is unfortunately not considering this aspect of the world building enough. Take pride in your cities!

[NexAnima]

I don't think you'll find many of us who mind that the early months of the game are limited in asset destruction, I mean we like competitive PVP, we don't want it to be easy to waltz to a city and drop it in 10 minutes (generally speaking, there are some exceptions). That being said, what we do want for example, is to be able to at least raid a city, let those owners make it their safehold, don't just cheapen it by having a game mechanic do the rightfully tough work for you. From having built cities before, it's a good feeling to make it a strong, defensively sound city! I think the anti-pvp crowd is unfortunately not considering this aspect of the world building enough. Take pride in your cities!

A complete circle around the boundary, 3 dirt levels high...welcome to my impenetrable fortress

[orious13]

A complete circle around the boundary, 3 dirt levels high...welcome to my impenetrable fortress

Oh snap... use large tree logs as "ramps"->siege ladders.

[Salvadore]

Addressing Shadowbane 2.0 - NO PLEASE DONT!!! Please get that out of the community right now!!! I would say the majority of the sb guys agree to that. Shadowbane had a plethora of character builds/types and multitudes of designs per build/type. The scope of this game is nowhere near that, nor does anyone want it to be. However, the sieging possibilities are amazingly similar. Still, none of us want it to be EXACTLY the same, however, possibly take the good parts? We are all here for Xsyon, even if we have different hopes for it!

Addressing Sieging - Pretty much Proto's post. However, in the latter half of sb, you didnt just walk up to a city and start sieging it. The prep for it took a couple months with everything included. The logistics, planning, resources, and strategies were more complex than most small countries do involving their own nation's military exercises! NOT kidding. Even with all of the aforementioned, it did not guarantee an automatic "win" for the aggressor. The majority were won by the defensive side. Some tribes would war for months as much as possible and NEVER EVER take a city from each other. This was due to balance...a specific thing that many (myself included) are pressing for involving the issue.

In a siege based system, the crafter or dubbed "carebear" is KING. They always have the people like me supplying them with WHATEVER they want and as much as they want. THEY decide the layout of the cities. THEY decide how to attack another city due to their experience with city building. THEY provide everything the pvp'er needs, thus is the pvp'ers number 1 dude. Who gets protected...yup, the KING crafter.

If you are a crafter and dont have a few guys like me planning to supply you...im tellin ya...YER DOING IT WRONG!!!

[Salvadore]

Oh snap... use large tree logs as "ramps"->siege ladders.

Wouldn't the guy standing on the wall of the city be able to just merely take the log?

*Of course, if they were online...

Im all about crafted siege equipment...like ladders, bullwarks, trebuchets, battering rams, siege carts, siege towers, etc. THATS depth!!!

[orious13]

Wouldn't the guy standing on the wall of the city be able to just merely take the log?

*Of course, if they were online...

Im all about crafted siege equipment...like ladders, bullwarks, trebuchets, battering rams, siege carts, siege towers, etc. THATS depth!!!

Yes, but you can run up them pretty fast during the pick up animation. Unless they didn't make the inner side of the wall sloped so they could get up there in time hehe. Just saying that 3 dirts high isn't too high really. The really high walls will definitely need some awesome siege gear.

[Dubanka]

factor in not just walls, but placement...my city placement for live would be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT if i needed to make it seige proof. I have found some awesome spots...sheer walls on 3 sides sheer drop from a waterfall going out with only a small path going down...helms deep type stuff. The ability to terraform adds a completely different dimmension to seiging (again, assuming we get things like seige equipment and ranged weapons....defense in depth, maze like entrances to confuse breachers...possibilities to do some really really cool stuff..

but, of course, it's all just unproven window decoration if we don't get the mechanics to break things.

[Doc]

I don't think you'll find many of us who mind that the early months of the game are limited in asset destruction, I mean we like competitive PVP, we don't want it to be easy to waltz to a city and drop it in 10 minutes (generally speaking, there are some exceptions). That being said, what we do want for example, is to be able to at least raid a city, let those owners make it their safehold, don't just cheapen it by having a game mechanic do the rightfully tough work for you. From having built cities before, it's a good feeling to make it a strong, defensively sound city! I think the anti-pvp crowd is unfortunately not considering this aspect of the world building enough. Take pride in your cities!

Well, thats the problem. As i see it, game doesnt really start in prelude, but players are tasked to build "NPC" part of game in prelude.

Actual game will start after prelude. Just instead people logging in in NPC town/area, they will spawn in player built area. Theres nothing anti-pvp about it, just that actual game you (and i guess most of the players) want to play wont start till after prelude, when you will have to build fortresses outside of current area and thats where majority of fighting/sieging happen. *shrug* thats what i concluded from limited available info, as current area is supposed to be ~10% of the map.

[Dubanka]

Well, thats the problem. As i see it, game doesnt really start in prelude, but players are tasked to build "NPC" part of game in prelude.

Actual game will start after prelude. Just instead people logging in in NPC town/area, they will spawn in player built area. Theres nothing anti-pvp about it, just that actual game you (and i guess most of the players) want to play wont start till after prelude, when you will have to build fortresses outside of current area and thats where majority of fighting/sieging happen. *shrug* thats what i concluded from limited available info, as current area is supposed to be ~10% of the map.

i know you have a lot more experience with the game, dev's, their vision and all that, but i'm not sure how you could be right.
- T v T mechanics are currently not in game.
- many pvp mechanics are not in game.
- post prelude is supposed to focus on some higher level of pvp / tvt
- how do you test these features if you don't do it in prelude?

i would hope that prelude 'seiging' would be just a little more limited...a 'points' reward or something...breach the city, hold the totem for 20 mins, everything is then lootable for the next 15 mins, 1 hour transtion phase (parties over), and then back to normal, so th edefender can repair any damages etc.

if you dont have the seige elements in prelude, we'll be flying blind when we head into that mythical post prelude window (of course first we actually have to get the game launched).

[Doc]

i know you have a lot more experience with the game, dev's, their vision and all that, but i'm not sure how you could be right.
- T v T mechanics are currently not in game.
- many pvp mechanics are not in game.
- post prelude is supposed to focus on some higher level of pvp / tvt
- how do you test these features if you don't do it in prelude?

i would hope that prelude 'seiging' would be just a little more limited...a 'points' reward or something...breach the city, hold the totem for 20 mins, everything is then lootable for the next 15 mins, 1 hour transtion phase (parties over), and then back to normal, so th edefender can repair any damages etc.

if you dont have the seige elements in prelude, we'll be flying blind when we head into that mythical post prelude window (of course first we actually have to get the game launched).

You have same info as everyone else. Info that clearly says tribe wars/territorial control is scheduled for after prelude. Even for second update after prelude (someone posted some dev reply, but not the source so its unreliable). Will "testing" of systems be available in limited form before prelude is over is anyones guess. Its not "mythical post prelude window" its what and when they plan to add stuff.

"What is Prelude?
Prelude is the first chapter of Xsyon. It is a time of discovery, building, and exploration and will continue through summer as the game evolves to include more content and features."


When will we be able to raid other tribes? And what systems are you planning for that?

Not for a while. This was planned for after the Prelude, which will last at least 6 months. When a raiding system is implemented I will first look at what other games do and what systems have had success.

Also, will we be able to participate in wars soon? What are the conquest victory conditions? Can we take more then one territory now?
As with raiding tribes, this won't happen for a while. The first implementation will allow for players to claim and fight over additional territories, but not their main tribal zone.

[coca]

Addressing Shadowbane 2.0 - NO PLEASE DONT!!! Please get that out of the community right now!!! I would say the majority of the sb guys agree to that. Shadowbane had a plethora of character builds/types and multitudes of designs per build/type. The scope of this game is nowhere near that, nor does anyone want it to be. However, the sieging possibilities are amazingly similar. Still, none of us want it to be EXACTLY the same, however, possibly take the good parts? We are all here for Xsyon, even if we have different hopes for it!

Addressing Sieging - Pretty much Proto's post. However, in the latter half of sb, you didnt just walk up to a city and start sieging it. The prep for it took a couple months with everything included. The logistics, planning, resources, and strategies were more complex than most small countries do involving their own nation's military exercises! NOT kidding. Even with all of the aforementioned, it did not guarantee an automatic "win" for the aggressor. The majority were won by the defensive side. Some tribes would war for months as much as possible and NEVER EVER take a city from each other. This was due to balance...a specific thing that many (myself included) are pressing for involving the issue.

In a siege based system, the crafter or dubbed "carebear" is KING. They always have the people like me supplying them with WHATEVER they want and as much as they want. THEY decide the layout of the cities. THEY decide how to attack another city due to their experience with city building. THEY provide everything the pvp'er needs, thus is the pvp'ers number 1 dude. Who gets protected...yup, the KING crafter.

If you are a crafter and dont have a few guys like me planning to supply you...im tellin ya...YER DOING IT WRONG!!!

Yup

[orious13]

factor in not just walls, but placement...my city placement for live would be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT if i needed to make it seige proof. I have found some awesome spots...sheer walls on 3 sides sheer drop from a waterfall going out with only a small path going down...helms deep type stuff. The ability to terraform adds a completely different dimmension to seiging (again, assuming we get things like seige equipment and ranged weapons....defense in depth, maze like entrances to confuse breachers...possibilities to do some really really cool stuff..

but, of course, it's all just unproven window decoration if we don't get the mechanics to break things.

IMO...

It would not be wise to even consider building a non-siege proof city regardless of its current usefulness. The "why build a wall?" question should be followed by the answer "just in case" at the very least.

But I agree with Doc. After reading a lot of the forums and the interviews and the features, I told myself that Prelude seemed to basically be making the world for when the game will truly begins. I think an interview actually pointed towards that.The only tools we have available right now are the tools that can create the physical presence of the world. Not the complete mental/emotional or spiritual one.

[mindtrigger]

Why does there need to be an end-game? Stop thinking in terms of theme park games. In a game like Xsyon, you can reinvent yourself as you see fit and have whatever adventures you want.

[orious13]

Why does there need to be an end-game? Stop thinking in terms of theme park games. In a game like Xsyon, you can reinvent yourself as you see fit and have whatever adventures you want.

And mindtrigger smacks the thread for 2000 dmg, forcing it to return to the original topic.

+1