Starting an Economy of some sort...

[Herrlich]

Why don't we use the money and pennies that we get from scavenging to start a real economy? I mean, at the beginning it will be only find by scavengers, but later on, it could be implemented so if someone needs a hammer for example, it cost 1 dollar and 50 pennies... The economy itself could be reestablish by the players!

It needs though the cooperation of all the players as it could enhance the role play experience to!

[Sultan]

no thanks i rather stick 2 trading i dont want to buy stof

also if there was a system of money i rather have pants as currencey

[TrackerEcanus]

Each tribe can have their own system of currency.

[naters4lad]

I too would rather not have an official economy. It invites gold farmers and a whole lot of other complications.

[KeithStone]

no thanks i rather stick 2 trading i dont want to buy stof

also if there was a system of money i rather have pants as currencey

that sounds retarded.

[XeoStyle]

that sounds retarded.

No shit sherlock :)

[Plague]

Laugh at it but this will happen if Xsyon survives months of stable gameplay. But I think it will not be money as money has no value around lake Tahoe. It will be something hard to obtain but very usefull, like nails for example. I would rather trade something for nails then for money that never had true value (not even now, its worth only paper its printed on minus interesst you own on it to your central bank).

Economy will evolve, nails, small bones, bear brains... Not paper that can not even be used as toilet paper.

[Andius]

I would rather trade in beer tabs and bottle caps. ;)

Anyway I have thought about this but the reason this wouldn't work is these currencies are not backed anything (Like the dollar is backed by the US government etc.), and have no real value themselves. By using them as a currency we are giving people who have access to these items the right to get nothing for something.

What it would take to start a currency is:

A. An item that is of real value itself, light or valuable enough it can be carried in large quantities but still be broken down into small units if the transaction is small. Some possible in-game items like this might be certain food items like fish, berries, and herbs. Or things like nails bolts and skrews. A real world example would be gold. Gold is not valuable because of any backing by countries. Its valuable because it is a beautiful, rare, and extremely non-reactive metal. Since it is non-reactive it can be used for items of lasting beauty unlike iron which rusts.

B. Any form of exchange backed by some very major parties. If some of the larger tribes across the server were to start accepting dollars or beer tabs or... pants, as payment for their goods and services, it would give these items value as once people had these items they could trade them with these parties for whatever they want. I mean you would take dollars as a form of currency if you knew you could go to Aegis or Animal Crackers, or one of the other major tribes and buy the saw you need for 300 dollars wouldn't you?

The problem with Plan B is until dollars became a universally accepted currency the tribes who took part in this would be losing money hand over fist. They would be accepting dollars that are worth nothing in exchange for real valuable items and services. And they don't even have control of the printing press. Imagine I am leading a 100 man tribe and I make it tribe policy that we will accept dollars as currency along with 10 other major tribes. What would you do? I would start scavenging more as I would get a ton of recipes and truly valuable items already, and now the worthless dollars I am finding have real value. The rate of dollars flowing onto the market would be insane and since they are passed from hand to hand instead of discarded after they are used, the amount of them on the market would be huge, and constantly growing. Meaning insane inflation rates. The saw that was 300 dollars today would be 600 dollars next week.

Perhaps a valid plan C would be for tribes to be able to make their own unique forms of currencies that only their leader can make. So that one Aegis trading shell would be backed by the economy and trustworthiness of Aegis and one Animal Cracker cookie would be backed by the economy and trustworthiness of Animal Crackers. People could assign them values based on how much they trust those tribes. I think a tribe doing this might eat costs a little in the beginning, but if they established themselves as a reliable tribe that can back their money, and that won't just create more of it every time they want to buy something, it could work. I know if I was trying to run a tribe that wanted its own currency. I would give handouts of my money in the beginning to get it out there on the market, and promise to honor that money if they bring it back to me and try to trade. When people started bringing it back, I would honor my promises and thus establish worth to my money. Then I print it at a rate that won't devalue it, but would just get enough out there that everyone wanting to use it could. Possibly doing this by printing money for people who bring me saw blades, nails, or some other item of value, and then hoarding those items to help back the currency. (Like Fort Knox.)

[Morketh]

How bout we worry about this after we find out how long it is going to take for the lag to end.. then after that we can see how many people are still playing then maybe we can think of some sort of trading system.

[Andius]

Because this is really interesting. The idea of tribes having the ability to create their own currencies. Its so realistic... it would be an amazing experiment in real world economics. Its possibilities like this that make me willing to suffer through this lag.

[darg75]

I think the most interesting question is; why did they put dollars and pennies (and bottle lids) into the game to begin with?

Surely the placement of these is a social experiment?

[Ceronic]

Yes use bottle caps as coins, then i will be wealthy ;)

[Andius]

Its surely a failed experiment though. There is nothing to back these currencies so no one will accept them. But if they allowed the creation of tribal currencies I would start releasing my own item back currency onto the market tonight. With a game focusing on giving all the power to the players instead of NPCs, player backed currencies would be a unique, logical, and highly interesting way to do things. I'm really, really, excited about the possibilities of this idea.

[lazyfroguk]

of course money doesnt have any in game use, remember money in real life doesnt have a use either. apart from toilet paper i guess. it is simply the meaning that we give money in the real world that gives it its power, and that is why the economy is a huge mysterious ever evolving dynamic cultural trade system. i think seeing what place money has on xsyon will turn out to be very interesting.

in the history of mankind trading resources only got us so far - economy is in a big way responsible for our worldwide development =)

[Toxic]

I would rather trade than have an economy. IMO its more flexible

[XeoStyle]

Because this is really interesting. The idea of tribes having the ability to create their own currencies. Its so realistic... it would be an amazing experiment in real world economics. Its possibilities like this that make me willing to suffer through this lag.

Yeah.... lets trade nails and grasspants on the stockexchange in irl ^^... Sounds like a pretty bad idea dude :)

[Andius]

Money DOES have meaning though. The way paper money started out were certificates entitling you to however much of a currency of real worth. Mainly gold. So when I would trade you a piece of paper currency it would mean, you can take this piece of paper to whoever issued it, and they will give you that much gold. Likewise our own currency is, or at least was backed in gold originally:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_dollar

So why would we accept dollars knowing that the United States no longer exists, is no longer backing these notes, and that dollars are produced by randomly scavenging around, and have no real value in themselves?

What is REALISTIC about what I want to do is that tribes are the new governments. They are the only holders of power, the only law, the only ones who can give a currency value in this game. If they could print their own money they could do EXACTLY what the original makers of paper currency did. I could release a currency of my own and say. "If you bring this currency back to me, it is backed in various items of real worth like leather, fabric, nails, etc. Give me the note and I'll give you its value in real items." What gives that currency advantage over the actual items themselves, is it is light, easy to carry in large quantities, and has obvious value.

Why is this such a big deal? Well because as the system stands. If I want to give you something of value, you either need to directly need it, or go out and find someone who needs the exact item you were paid with. Where as a currency has a huge advantage in that once its circulation gets wide enough, people will accept it as payment for any item, because they know they can go and trade it to someone else who will accept it. You may not actually need any of the items backing my currency, or whatever tribes currency, but if you know all your neighbors or some very powerful tribes will accept that currency in exchange for items you do need, then it is very useful.

Obviously that gives currency a greater use than the barter system in itself but now I want you to consider some community events things that can enhance people's game experience:

Bounty hunting and mercenary contracts
Lotteries and raffles
Tournaments and contests

Are you going to go and custom make a bunch of items the winner will want? What is the price you put on someone's head going to be measured with? Are you going to accept any random item as entry into the raffle?

In every other game the currency has value because you can use it to buy things. Items from NPCs, player owned housing, skills, armor repairs, etc. It has real value. Here EVERYTHING is backed by the players. Why not give the players control of the printing presses, and what kind of currencies they want to use?

Added after 13 minutes:


Yeah.... lets trade nails and grasspants on the stockexchange in irl ^^... Sounds like a pretty bad idea dude :)

I didn't say current world economics I said real world economics. But I'm not saying items like the items in this game have real world value. In the real world I would back a currency in silver and/or gold. Those items don't exist/wouldn't have the same value as they do in real life in Xsyon so in Xsyon you would have to back it with other things.

What does make it an amazing experiment in real world economics both past and current is how the tribes will be able to make their own currency like a real world government. They will have control of the printing press and have to decide how to use it. Its like shoving a ton of little tiny governments all on the land surrounding one big lake. Which currencies will rise to the top? Which will fail? Will tribes back all their currency in items or will they just make more currency without backing it with anything? Will they honor their promises they make, or will they build up a huge reserve and then dump the currency altogether. Will tribes come together to back a single currency like the Xsyon version of the Euro. Will one tribes currency be accepted almost everywhere like the US dollar?

Of course things will be different because this is a game, and games are different from real life, but it will still be an interesting experiment that could help yield some answers about real world economics.

[Trenchfoot]

Money is the accounting of an incomplete transaction. That's all it is.

Let's say some men are stranded on a deserted island. One of them takes to fishing, another one gathers coconuts.

If one man trades his coconuts for fish, that's barter/trade.

But let's say they agree to accept a precious mineral in return for their labors or the fruits thereof. They agree on this one kind of shiny rock because it's rare and cannot be easily reproduced. Which tends to keep things honest.

So they say: I agree to accept shiny rocks and give you fish, as long as I can buy coconuts from you with the same shiny rocks.

The shiny rocks of themselves are worthless. They are just a way to keep account of who gave fish (when no coconuts were given in return) and who gave coconuts (without getting any fish for them).

It's like saying : I want some of your fish, but I don't have any coconuts on me. So if you'll take these shiny rocks, you can use them to get your coconuts back at my place.

Therefore, anything you agree to use to keep track of 'unfinished' transactions IS by definition 'money'.

[rajaxone]

This is how the economy will build itself over time according to my point of view:

Once the game progresses, we will find a few very valuable items in game that are necessary for further development of tribes. These items will be in rarity and high demand. Once these items become the bases of trading in the game like (bronze, silver, gold) they will automatically give birth to "paper" currency. For example, if nails are so valuable that all tribes or players want them in the game, than tribes/players can decide among that selves that "1 nail" is worth "100 dollars". This will give value to dollars, cents and other currency that we find in game. I believe this can only be done once we know how much dollars are in rotation all together so their value can be determined. Lets see what happens, this is why this game is so much fun because no one knows the progression of it or the end game.

[Andius]

But if the shiny rocks can be found by anyone just out gathering, they will use those shiny rocks. People would go out scavenging for shiny rocks all the time, even though shiny rocks have no real value outside what people assign them. Since shiny rocks can be used to pay for everything, and nobody would even think of throwing out shiny rocks, the amount of shiny rocks on the market will build and build and build.

If you allow someone to buy your coconut for 50 shiny rocks, a month later there will be even more shiny rocks on the market, and the 50 shiny rocks now is half the value of the shiny rocks when you accepted them because of hyper-inflation that comes from using an easy to obtain currency with no real value.

If I am a responsible tribe leader that can print my own currency and I back every Andian shiny rock I produce with a piece of leather, then my currency will always be worth ~1 piece of leather. (Around because how trustworthy I am factors in to the worth of my currency and even though I am a trustworthy person who would seek to prove that. I'm human making my currencies value slightly less than 1 leather to most people.)

ALSO since I am the sole provider of my currency people aren't going out spending all their time looking for Andian shiny rocks. Which would greatly reduce market productivity and hurt the economy. Instead they practice their trade and trade things to people for Andian currency or a currency of another tribe they trust. Either that or they give me leather to put in my reserve, and I give them Andian currency.

As little effort as it would take to implement my idea I think its worth a try once the server is more stable. If you wanted to trade in dollars you still could. But given that nobody is trading in dollars right now.....

[rajaxone]

But if the shiny rocks can be found by anyone just out gathering, they will use those shiny rocks. People would go out scavenging for shiny rocks all the time, even though shiny rocks have no real value outside what people assign them. Since shiny rocks can be used to pay for everything, and nobody would even think of throwing out shiny rocks, the amount of shiny rocks on the market will build and build and build.

If you allow someone to buy your coconut for 50 shiny rocks, a month later there will be even more shiny rocks on the market, and the 50 shiny rocks now is half the value of the shiny rocks when you accepted them because of hyper-inflation that comes from using an easy to obtain currency with no real value.

If I am a responsible tribe leader that can print my own currency and I back every Andian shiny rock I produce with a piece of leather, then my currency will always be worth ~1 piece of leather. (Around because how trustworthy I am factors in to the worth of my currency and even though I am a trustworthy person who would seek to prove that. I'm human making my currencies value slightly less than 1 leather to most people.)

ALSO since I am the sole provider of my currency people aren't going out spending all their time looking for Andian shiny rocks. Which would greatly reduce market productivity and hurt the economy. Instead they practice their trade and trade things to people for Andian currency or a currency of another tribe they trust. Either that or they give me leather to put in my reserve, and I give them Andian currency.

As little effort as it would take to implement my idea I think its worth a try once the server is more stable. If you wanted to trade in dollars you still could. But given that nobody is trading in dollars right now.....

Yes, but what happens when you give me some Audian currency for free initially, I trade it for some armor than never come back. The reason I wont come back is because I Can't use Audian currency anywhere except with you and unless you are the sole provider of everything, I would rather keep the armor. But, if 3 tribes agree to use Audian currency to trade amongst themselves, than that would make sense.

[Trenchfoot]

@rajax

You only need to know the dollars in rotation if you intend to monitor/tamper with/control the value of things.

But as you said an economy will be born out of the need to do business. I don't see that there's anything we really HAVE to do. It will happen as the natural course of commerce. Commerce likes convenient transactions. It's as certain as gravity.

Also as you stated, people will determine their own value of things. This too is the natural order of commerce because beauty(read value) is in the eye of the beholder.

Every man inherently knows the level of difficulty it took to get what he owns, and through that he'll quickly determine what it's worth to him.

Again, I don't see that we really have to DO anything. The second two people begin to use tokens to account for incomplete transactions, we'll have a monetary system.

Exactly my point rajax. It's not your money that has fortitude, it's really your word to finish the transaction. And if no one can finish the transaction or it becomes too difficult to complete the transaction then your currency will die.

@and

Which is why I stated that the shiny rocks were rare (meaning it takes time and effort to acquire them thereby not worth it to do as you suggested) and you couldn't counterfeit them (make shiny rocks out of dull gray ones). You don't choose a currency that anyone can produce. This is the very reason Gold has been used by economies all over the world for ages. Shiny rocks was just an example.

[Andius]

Yes, but what happens when you give me some Audian currency for free initially, I trade it for some armor than never come back. The reason I wont come back is because I Can't use Audian currency anywhere except with you and unless you are the sole provider of everything, I would rather keep the armor. But, if 3 tribes agree to use Audian currency to trade amongst themselves, than that would make sense.

If Andian (I assume that is what you meant.) currency is not honored by anyone other than me, this would surely be an issue, and initially I am sure it will be like that for all currencies. But as time goes on I believe you will see different forms of currencies become more widely accepted. Like I have my neighbors Animal Crackers. We agree to accept eachother's currencies. That means you can go to them or to me to get the items you want using my currency. Then I go out and make the same agreement with the Hopi tribe which is on some other corner of the map. Now I have two tribes in two locations that agree to accept my currency. Now I'm going out gathering a lot of items leather to put in my reserve and printing a lot of currency. The currency starts to catch on in my local area. Everyone in my local area starts to use it because it is available, and because its honored by Animal crackers. AND the some thing happens in the area around Hopi, and more tribes start agreeing to accept my currency. Then my currency starts spreading to people who live near some of my more remote neighbors that use it. People are bringing me leather to put in my reserve because its the dominate form of currency in the area, and they want it.

You get the idea. Either that, or I try to get it out there, nobody wants to use it, and/or there is another tribe with a more dominant currency people are more interested in.

Thats why I say its an experiment. Sure it could fail. I can guarantee some currencies will fail. But I'll bet that if you implemented this, you would get some pretty solid currencies that would become accepted by people over some pretty decent chunks of the map. You might even get multiple competing currencies accepted across the entire map.

Added after 6 minutes:


Which is why I stated that the shiny rocks were rare (meaning it takes time and effort to acquire them thereby not worth it to do as you suggested) and you couldn't counterfeit them (make shiny rocks out of dull gray ones). You don't choose a currency that anyone can produce. This is the very reason Gold has been used by economies all over the world for ages. Shiny rocks was just an example.

Gold isn't just valuable because it is accepted as money. Gold is valuable because it is a rare, beautiful, and extremely non-reactive metal. Non-reactive is a good thing because it means that things made with gold will last an extremely long time and withstand the elements.

I assumed your shiny rock was an argument toward "Why not just use dollars as currency." Which is what the post was trying to address.

[Trenchfoot]

OK the @ the other And now (ius). Should have stated but was being lazy, sorry.

Totally agree with you on that. People only want two things out of currency and that is 'trust' (that you can use it to complete your transaction or in your words honored), and 'convenience' (that you don't have to go out of your way to use it).


Gold isn't just valuable because it is accepted as money. Gold is valuable because it is a rare, beautiful, and extremely non-reactive metal. Non-reactive is a good thing because it means that things made with gold will last an extremely long time and withstand the elements.

I assumed your shiny rock was an argument toward "Why not just use dollars as currency." Which is what the post was trying to address.

No one who rushed out west during the gold rush went there to have the gold to make a necklace. They went there for what the gold could buy. Again, it's simply a means by which you account for an incomplete transaction. It became a natural standard because you could spend your life looking for it and often times not only end up penniless but loose your life as well. That and the fact that you couldn't make gold out of lead or counterfeit it makes it a more stable currency (read keeps things more honest).

Shiny rock was just a shiny rock. It might as well have said <insert item here>. And that's my point. It really doesn't matter whether it's sea shells or tribe currency or whatever.

I'm not proposing a dollar currency at all. I don't know what I said that made you think that?

I'm just proposing that we not tout any money system as a whole like the title of this thread suggests. No one says 'Hey you know what, let's all print up/agree on/use this for money.' All of a sudden out of the blue.

You don't create currency for currencies sake in other words. First you have to have a need to purchase before you produce. Then currency will come in naturally as the people doing business will find it a convenient way to grease the wheels of commerce. Which they agree upon in the course of their business. And as you said things will catch on. We all know nature hates a vacuum. It will happen, with no need for everyone to agree on a single currency.

If your tribes currency is good and easy for me to use, that's exactly what I'll be using. If several tribes currency is good and easy, I may end up using 'many' currencies. When it begins to become too inconvenient for me to do business with so many currencies, then you'll see things start to fall into place as people will gravitate to what is best for them.

A currency will birth itself given time. No effort involved.

[Andius]

They weren't going out and getting it because they wanted to make a necklace but the point is that is what made it such a solid currency worldwide. Even though they wouldn't use it for the purpose, some people would. Because it could be used to make a necklace, or ring, or crown, or decoration. If instead say, petrified turds were used as currency... people would ask. "Why should I accept this? This is worthless. Its rare, its hard to counterfeit, but it is useless. Certain governments might back the use of petrified turds but do you really think it become as solid of a currency as gold? And imagine how much of a waste of time it would be to have petrified turd miners.

Really all I am pushing for here is for people to back the creation of tribal currencies or some form of coinage or currency making skill. As it stands right now, I can't just go make a currency and see how it works. There needs to be some form of game system allowing me to do it. And we won't get one without support.

[Trenchfoot]

You don't need a government to back a currency for it to be useful. You only need one vendor who says I will honor this currency in exchange for my wares. To this day you have small towns in America who have and use their own currency (mainly in the farmers coops). The government didn't print it or regulate it. The business owners did. It's nothing more than a certified IOU. Leave it to the people doing business, not the governments. If your government exists to make a profit, it's no longer a government, it's a corporation where citizens by the nature of profit margins quickly become employees. Governments can adopt currency already in use, or adopt a standard to facilitate commerce, but to create (instead of adopt) a standard before you have a need to make commerce easier is putting the horse before the cart.

And that's what I've noticed here. People here don't want to make currency for the purpose of making commerce easier, they want it for political gain and power. If you print currency just so you can say, 'Hey look at us we have our own money.', your currency will almost assuredly fail anyway.

On the other hand this thread has brought up a good point. And that is: Wouldn't it be nice to have some kind of way to create certified documents?

And that I agree with. For a government to run efficiently we could really use a way to create our own documents and have those said documents be certified (a time stamp and signature or something that says it is authentic). This could benefit the game in so many ways when it comes to governments running smoothly in the area of providing infrastructure and in the area of diplomatic relations. Too many to list really because these could be as useful to individuals as they are to governments/tribes.

So yes, I am all for the 'create certified documentation' feature. If you then want to call the documents you make money that's up to you. But I do not agree that you should only have this ability through tribes. Everyone should have this ability.

Of course the question that comes to my mind is: How will this effect the game database? hehehe To create thousands of 'possibly useless, definitely useful' items?

If they can pull it off I'd like to see a way to create documents.

[Andius]

The point is to make commerce easier. I won't lie and say it wouldn't be an ego boost to see a currency I started being traded by many other players for trade, but I also just feel I could create a currency which would be a more stable and better alternative to anything currently existing in game. Or someone else might create one. A currency that might even get used unlike anything currently in-game.

I can agree that anyone could create their own currency. You could do some form of skill for creating currency that all players have access to. I mean without proper connections and backing of the currency it would be monopoly money anyway so why not let whoever wants to print their own currency print it?

[Trenchfoot]

@Andius

I think what you're talking about is banking not necessarily currency by itself. And for that all you need is the ability to create certified documents. No skills needed. Let's say two vendors are using 'tokens' for example to keep track of their transactions between one another. Another vendor steps in and begins honoring tokens too. Pretty soon, the people who do business with these vendors begin using 'tokens' too.

Then a banker steps in and says 'We'll buy up your tokens in exchange for our currency, and you can come and redeem our currency for tokens.'. If all goes well pretty soon people and vendors alike are using 'Token Bills' instead of tokens. It's a process that begins on the ground level, not from the top down.

For all of that to go down all you need is a way to create documents.

EDIT: You might implement a paper making/ printing? skill or something similar. That would be neat combined with document creation.

[Andius]

A paper printing skill would allow for the making of currency, as long as there was some way to make documents that had some sort of signature or way to authenticate them like you said, that couldn't be replicated by anyone who hasn't been given permission by whoever is overseeing the currency.

So yes, if printing comes with some form of signature or stamp of authentication feature, this would be an entirely valid solution for me.

[notintime]

First off all, there wont be any kind of economy in this game or maybe i should say "market" rather, thx to the guy who implemented the crafting and resources system(unless it changes which I doubt).
Almost everything is very easy to make or gather/find(with few exceptions like human skulls). All craftable items require very little materials usually so you can make tons of everything in short amount of time.
If you are in tribe with 5+ members where you can "cover" every craft then there wont be any need for trading.
Its been only few weeks from release and my small very unactive tribe have probably around 150 baskets full of EVERYTHING(and i dont even wanna think how many things we discarded cos who need 300 hats or 300 tools of same kind?). Hundrets of armor parts,tools, weapons. Hundrets or even thousends of scavangable materials/items(and we have actually only one guy who was scavenging a lot, hit 99 few days ago).
Tell me who will care to trade if in 2-3 months everybody will have tons of everything? What will be the reason to do that? Even if they will turn on the item decay? It wont help at all. Cos so what that my tool or weapon will decay after lets say few days if i have another 200 same tool/weapons waiting in baskets?
The only things that may be traded will be very rare items like human skulls that are really hard to obtain, and how many such rare items are in game? 5(+maybe some recipies)? :P

Only ppl who may want(need) to trade would be hermits( to get a tool they dont have at start or some armor set they want). So they will go to tribes to get desirable item, but what would tribe want from a hermit if they have everything(and tons of it)? ;) They will just give stuff away for free :P
Depletable junkpiles? Yeah... by the time they will be gone, there will be mountains of baskets full of stuff everywhere, and everybody will be "set" for very very long time.

I hope im wrong but i really dont see how we can have any economy in this game with current state of crafting/resources system. Unless we all abandon tribes and become hermits :P

[unclean666]

I dont think we really need a currency any time soon.Trading seems to work just fine for now.I have yet to see 2 people not come to some fine of agreement on a trade.

[Kazkid]

I must agree. Trading works perfectly. Concerns I had about trading was that I couldnt produce quality items so what would I have to trade? I took the time to ask and got several responses, the best of which I have used is fish, hey everyone gotta eat ya know!

[MrDDT]

I must agree. Trading works perfectly. Concerns I had about trading was that I couldnt produce quality items so what would I have to trade? I took the time to ask and got several responses, the best of which I have used is fish, hey everyone gotta eat ya know!

Wow, you find trading useful in the game? I rarely see trade going on. I ask a lot of people and they dont trade, and its not just not trading with me. They just dont trade.
Why people would trade for fish also is beyond me.

[fatboy21007]

ddt your full of shit, everytime im ingame some1 is trading with me, most folks dont trade with ya cuz they dont like ya. ( which btw recipes seem to be high demand now) XD

[MrDDT]

ddt your full of shit, everytime im ingame some1 is trading with me, most folks dont trade with ya cuz they dont like ya. ( which btw recipes seem to be high demand now) XD

Think what you will, but I've asked many people. Plus I can even make a new guy you never heard of before, and ask same reply. Nothing.

[NorCalGooey]

DDT is right. People don't like to trade and here's why.

You can likely get the items you need in the time it takes to run across the world to trade. This will be even worse when death penalties are added and death porting is no longer a "viable" option. If you cannot make them yourselves, there is no real NEED to have any items anyway, so most people don't even bother. If there was a NEED to have master bone armor, then I would go across the world and trade for it, despite how tedious it is to do so.

Certain trades (not light items) will take hours upon hours just to setup and complete without death penalties.

Give us horses for small trades (and faster transportation obviously) and carts for large trades. Even still, the cart is going to have to hold like 10-20x the amount someone can carry.

Can you imagine how hard it will be to trade metal, when 5 metal boards fill up your entire stamina bar? Even at 20x, that's 100 metal boards is all you can bring with you across the world. It would likely be faster to scavenge them yourself, depending on the RNG (getting steel boards instead of the ones you want, like titanium for example)

[eric]

Sadly its true. What NorCalGooey wrote I mean.

Whenever I feel like starting a trade for something I need or when I want to 'sell' the stuff I craft (these being Bricks or Mortar) its easier to just go to the people who show interest and craft the damn things at their location.
I sincerely hope carts (horses/mules or whatever) will make trading more interesting, because at this time I don't see it happen.
Most tribes are self sufficient, the only things most want are the tedious ones (like masonry or hauling trees).

And a currency is not needed at all. I set 'bottlecaps' in my totem, but I haven't yet gotten any for anything I traded with.. usually its tools, armour or eh.. tools ;).

[Fergie]

Currency will be needed if trade can be brought into the game..... right now, trade is very limited.

Two big things we need

A The game needs to have demand for items...... Totems need an upkeep, other items need to have up-keeps....items that players deem useful, but need items crafted or found to keep them going.... this creates demand, but its still player driven since players have to setup the totem or whatever item and upkeep it (will only do so if the player finds the totems useful) (think about large totems that give bigger bonus, but more upkeep...and small ones that let you setup outposts for trade but smaller upkeeps, but very limited bonus or area size.

B Setup faster ways to travel and carry more goods.... right now its tough enough for me to make a few hundred bricks and then move them 100 yards to help our Tribe Project. Let alone make them and move them a zone or two.

Carts need to hold about 25-40 times more than you can carry (this is realistic too, even a wheel barrel can help you lift 10x what you can lift.) make them really slow on grass or rock, much quicker on roads.

(carts should be, Wheelbarrow, two wheeled pull cart, cart with an ox, and upgrade) Ox carts could come from farming and animal handling..... Ox should have an upkeep, creating demand for grain or food farmed and pushing trade (Ox can help move goods, but also demands goods to be used)

Connections will be made, trade will start to happen.......

If the community gets bigger, a trade hub will get setup by the players (see Jita in EVE)

Then a currency will get setup....

[MrDDT]

Currency will be needed if trade can be brought into the game..... right now, trade is very limited.

Two big things we need

A The game needs to have demand for items...... Totems need an upkeep, other items need to have up-keeps....items that players deem useful, but need items crafted or found to keep them going.... this creates demand, but its still player driven since players have to setup the totem or whatever item and upkeep it (will only do so if the player finds the totems useful) (think about large totems that give bigger bonus, but more upkeep...and small ones that let you setup outposts for trade but smaller upkeeps, but very limited bonus or area size.

B Setup faster ways to travel and carry more goods.... right now its tough enough for me to make a few hundred bricks and then move them 100 yards to help our Tribe Project. Let alone make them and move them a zone or two.

Carts need to hold about 25-40 times more than you can carry (this is realistic too, even a wheel barrel can help you lift 10x what you can lift.) make them really slow on grass or rock, much quicker on roads.

(carts should be, Wheelbarrow, two wheeled pull cart, cart with an ox, and upgrade) Ox carts could come from farming and animal handling..... Ox should have an upkeep, creating demand for grain or food farmed and pushing trade (Ox can help move goods, but also demands goods to be used)

Connections will be made, trade will start to happen.......

If the community gets bigger, a trade hub will get setup by the players (see Jita in EVE)

Then a currency will get setup....


Very well said.

[simple69]

Very well said. I was also thinking that they should have like a bazaar area in game were you could rent vendors and such so you could place items for trade. Make it easier to do trades and such.

[MrDDT]

Very well said. I was also thinking that they should have like a bazaar area in game were you could rent vendors and such so you could place items for trade. Make it easier to do trades and such.

I dont want this at all. I want players to make their own bazaars. Problem right now isnt that players cant make them, its that no one needs to. They can do everything, have access to just about everything, and need nothing.

Plus to haul their goods they have to die, or go VERY VERY slow.

[simple69]

Thats why a central area for a bazaar might work better. A neutral area as well. That way the travel is equal distance for everyone. Nothing worse then trading for a saw and the guy is on the other side of the map. Makes the though of going to get it less appealing, and the idea that I'll just grind it out myself instead more appealing.

[MrDDT]

Thats why a central area for a bazaar might work better. A neutral area as well. That way the travel is equal distance for everyone. Nothing worse then trading for a saw and the guy is on the other side of the map. Makes the though of going to get it less appealing, and the idea that I'll just grind it out myself instead more appealing.

The whole point is that people will make a bazzar area themselves. Some outposts will be great for trading, because they are located near the hard to reach areas, while other trading places will be near the center of the map for ease of access. The center places likely will have less resources, because people around them use them up. While the outpost will have more because they are out near them.

Making a center place, will hurt player choice. Making it safe will hurt PVP, and again player choice. If trader's kill their merchants or buyers, it wont be long before word gets out they are not to be trusted.

[Fergie]

What makes you think anyone is ever going to trade in this game?

First off, it defeats the purpose of the game. 99% of the game is gathering resources; the other 1% is making useless junk out of it. Why not just play the game you're paying to play (or playing for free, if you're like me).

Second, in Xsyon, trading only saves people time since there is nothing else really stopping you from going out there and getting it yourself. Also, since everyone still playing this game clearly has a lot of extra time on their hands, then obviously they'll just do it themselves.

Finally, the lack of fast travel means everything you will ever need is in reach -- and if it isn't, you need to move.


I think your missing the big picture here........

If the Dev team wants more than 60-70 players logged online at one time then you need more stuff to do, so you dont have 99% of your time being "free"

The Mutant add on is to turn the game more towards that. Kill zombies, instead of crafting (now you need to trade more often than before)

Skill Decay = more trade, since you now cant master 3 or 4 skill types

More Trade Skills (Cooking, Animal Handling, Farming) all makes more things to do and get, making it harder to do them all on your own, = more trade, its harder to do everything now


and the game keeps moving that way, they need end game content if they ever want to make money off the game to support their lives. They need a reason to make armor, to create homes, to play the game.

The Dev team is moving that way, its obvious from the things they are adding in (carts being one of them) we are just trying to be helpful with some ideas

[simple69]

I agree with your Fergie on all those points. If the game doesn't have a economy then whats the point in crafting all this time or spending time grinding crafting. There needs to be some sort of economy to make all that time spent grinding it to be worth while.

[MrDDT]

The Dev team is moving that way, its obvious from the things they are adding in (carts being one of them) we are just trying to be helpful with some ideas


I agree with everything you said. But this line here is specially it. Carts are part of it, but so are other things. Armor having a bigger effect (up to 65% protection right now vs new players, 30% vs high skilled), bonuses of items. Weapons having up to 50% more damage based on QL.
Hunger and Thirst effects coming into play soon a lot more.

Zombies, mutants and contested resources will all play major roles into what is going to be the biggest effects on econ. After that skill decay and skill caps.

Modes of selling wares, modes of shipping goods, and more styles/favor of crafting also. Cooking and farming will play parts into this, but really without local and regional resources they will just be like any other skill.

I really hope the focus after Zombies/mutants/contested resources the push going to be ECON. Item decay needs balancing, the way you skill up with items and resources needs to be changed and balanced. Making 10000000 wooden needles out of wood which is almost unlimited isnt a great answer to making economy work. People should be tossing out Master Supreme QL tools because they dont need the 1000th one. These items should be much more rare, and useful.

[MrDDT]

Leveling up your tradeskills should be for the purpose of using those tradeskill products, not so that you can sell your product into an economy...

Huh?

It should be both, the tradeskiller should either level it up to use it for themselves/tribe and/or to make a profit off it. It doesnt need to only be for their own personal or tribe use. Making money off a skill is very useful.

[MrDDT]

Maybe if you live in modern day New York and you can go slave away at a call center and hate your life, then come home and smoke weed and play video games all day.

However, this is a god damn apocalyptic Indian magic/religion/zombies/mutants survival game. Our characters shouldn't be looking to cleverly profit off neighboring tribes by performing some menial task.


Works in just about every game and economy I know. You do X I do Y we trade to save us time from doing X and Y.

You specialize in X, I specialize in Y. If we were to do both we would do it less effective and efficiency.

[MrDDT]

Yet it doesn't work in this game.

You're rewarded with general XP and self-sufficiency by doing the grind yourself. That in itself demolishes any reason to trade, even within your own tribe. How are you even typing these posts, don't you have like every skill maxed?

You hit the problem why econ isnt working, and making my point. Not hurting my point. My point is that if people were to focus they should be rewarded. Not rewarded for doing everything. In this game currently there is no reward to focus, and no need not to focus. You just said before.

"Leveling up your tradeskills should be for the purpose of using those tradeskill products, not so that you can sell your product into an economy..."

Which means you should level up for items so you can use them and not for econ. While normally they are used for econ and not ONLY for use. Making items for trade is a very valid use of leveling up a skill. I remember in UO I would level up mining while I was mostly a Tailor because mining made more money and was easy for me due to being near rare ore spawns. So I leveled up mining to trade people for tailoring mats I needed.

[fotuenti]

So far it's just a competition to make the coolest mountain of wasted time.

i lol'd, well done sir

[fatboy21007]

Hi, to start an economy, id like to say server wipe. after skill decay is in, XD

[MrDDT]

It's so simple. This guy's got it. Just wipe the server = economy. Brilliant!

Wiping the server does nothing for economy if the basic problems are still there, it just restarts it to a point where there are less # of problems but still the same % of problems.

[fatboy21007]

idea isnt stupid if skill decay and stat decay is in :-P

[kiwibird]

Another way of creating an economy is not even using game resources.

Using an external currency you are able to then use supply and demand. You would have a group of elders that would set the likely demand for each item the venue would trade. You would sell your Grass to them in exchange for this currency credit.

So for example, Grass would be a common item that people would nearly always want, so to start opening of grass the elders of the trade would say they need 1k grass to open that item for sales. In players giving the grass to the elders, they get a "currency" credit note. When Grass has got to 1k, it is allowed to be sold to the players.

To purchase items from the elders you would need to either use already acquired credit from them, trade enough resources to equate to the same value, or trade more than the value and obtain a credit note.

Supply and demand would change the prices, so when the elders have 10k grass selling them more grass would give very little credit, and buying it would be very cheap. But if you wanted to buy grass and the stock only had 3k grass, it would be X amount times higher but would give more credit to sell grass to them at that time.

This way the exploiting of the system is open to everyone, and everyone is on the same path to exploit the system, but is still controlled by the player base.

A suggestion I would also have is a "Currency Press" in which could allow for currency to be printed. Doing so, would mean other players can't forge the currency, but could also then have the ability to trade currency between players... this also comes with the risk of being robbed of said items.

[joexxxz]

I cant see page 7.

[Asharad]

Page 7... are you there?

[fatboy21007]

I think page 7 ran away!