One Giant PEACE Server

[baka77]

Well, I'm glad Jooky decided to think outside the box to fix the animal/homestead issue & keep us all together.

I just wish he had chosen to keep the rule set for WAR rather than PEACE. As it stands, the concept of WAR is gone & we're all left playing on a huge PEACE server.

I'm fine with this under one condition. There need to be some major benefits to declaring as a warring tribe. It should not just be for shits & giggles. There should be some big juicy carrot to tempt the crafter tribes to declare for war. I'm thinking rare resources only available to tribes that declare for war, or something along those lines. No tribe should be able to have full access to everything without some element of risk involved.

[benz17]

I'm not fine with it.

In a real open world, if someone pisses you off enough at mines, resources, whatever, just open field, you come and destroy his crap.

In what Jordi 'envisioned' (this morning), someone pisses you off, and you can't do jack shit to their holdings because they've chosen to be a non-warring tribe (freaking nonsense).

Jordi, gratz on implementing trammel even before the launch.

[Jagsman32]

This had already been planned with Good, Neutral, and Evil tribes. Good and Evil would fight each other while Neutral would stay uninvolved. If a Neutral tribe is stealing resources and is caught, after enough times this may force the Neutral tribe to declare itself a Warring tribe aligning it with Good or Evil.

[benz17]

This had already been planned with Good, Neutral, and Evil tribes. Good and Evil would fight each other while Neutral would stay uninvolved. If a Neutral tribe is stealing resources and is caught, after enough times this may force the Neutral tribe to declare itself a Warring tribe aligning it with Good or Evil.

The next steps to making this game another [insert whatever trivial mmorpg you can think of] are, in this order:

- faction-based pvp;
- more safe zones;
- consentual pvp on arenas;
- [this is way too far beyond the point where great concepts were ruined, once again].

[orious13]

AND... people still whine.

The particulars behind war/non-war tribes is not set. Take this time to come up with a great suggestion into how this can be created, using as baka had said some sort of carrots or sticks. We have many months to find out (as a community) how we all can come up with a compromise. I believe that safe zones should still be removed completely, but just not all tribes will technically fight to conquer/destroy.

As I had said yesterday... the war server was a chance for people to create something interesting as a community, but the fear of the split refused that. Don't expect to see it again. As last month has unfolded, the peace server has always seemed to be closer to what I've read, but I'm only a February.

[Kroom]

No one can say "I signed up to play on the war server..." so thread is moot.

[benz17]

No one can say "I signed up to play on the war server..." so thread is moot.

Yea but I can say "Sorry, wont pay for a restricted ruleset in a sandbox game anymore".

[Yuyito]

Wait, did people forget this from the update:

"Both warring and non-warring tribes could claim resources that would be up for contest by both types of tribes."

So even non-warring tribe will have to defend resource locations if they wish to prosper...

[Chevron]

The next steps to making this game another [insert whatever trivial mmorpg you can think of] are, in this order:

- faction-based pvp;
- more safe zones;
- consentual pvp on arenas;
- [this is way too far beyond the point where great concepts were ruined, once again].

I am all for PVP and i disagree with your statment.

Jookie made a good decision and it is not a peace or war server but it is in the middle. Remember that tribes leaving thier land are still fair game to be attacked and that weather they are a peace or warring tribe you can still collect some of their recources if you need them and happen to be passing through. Do you guys really think tribes will live out thier game life without ever leaving their land..bull.

For now lets see how it plays out. It has basically been reverted to initial plan with safe zones so lets wait and see what after prelude brings

[Sultan]

I'm not fine with it.

In a real open world, if someone pisses you off enough at mines, resources, whatever, just open field, you come and destroy his crap.

In what Jordi 'envisioned' (this morning), someone pisses you off, and you can't do jack shit to their holdings because they've chosen to be a non-warring tribe (freaking nonsense).

Jordi, gratz on implementing trammel even before the launch.

did u real read it nonwaring tribes cant attack ur zone its safe

[Dubanka]

Wait, did people forget this from the update:

"Both warring and non-warring tribes could claim resources that would be up for contest by both types of tribes."

So even non-warring tribe will have to defend resource locations if they wish to prosper...

which is problematic.

again, basic accountability issue.

need to hear what the benefits are for flagging red.

what is the default setting?

What do i give up to become, for all intents and purposes, invulnerable?

[Kroom]

Yea but I can say "Sorry, wont pay for a restricted ruleset in a sandbox game anymore".

So you would have left any ways... Best of luck to you and I hope you find what you are looking for else where.

[Mystais]

Only problem I see now is twice the population fighting over one server for space.

"You are too close to an existing tribe."

Live it, love it, learn it. :rolleyes:

PS - And yes I realize he reduced the homestead radius, modified the tribe placement radius as well as created clans. Still going to be a lot more people in the same amount of space.

[baka77]

Mods, can this thread be merged into the "official" discussion thread? I made it before the official one was up.

[Chevron]

I'm not fine with it.

In a real open world, if someone pisses you off enough at mines, resources, whatever, just open field, you come and destroy his crap.

In what Jordi 'envisioned' (this morning), someone pisses you off, and you can't do jack shit to their holdings because they've chosen to be a non-warring tribe (freaking nonsense).

Jordi, gratz on implementing trammel even before the launch.

It is not a tram version as that would constitute two identical worlds with one being completly safe and the other not ie would have been tram if there were two servers.

Tribes simply have a small safe zone which is not unlike UOs towns being safe for the most part. So he made a good solid decision. Everyone is still fair game off their land. Lets just wait it out and see what happen during the end and after prelude.

I am by the way Pro PVP .

[Aramanu]

which is problematic.

again, basic accountability issue.

need to hear what the benefits are for flagging red.

what is the default setting?

What do i give up to become, for all intents and purposes, invulnerable?

Dubanka see here for some info concerning going evil:
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/32-Conflict-Death-Consequences-and-Decisions

In that thread (granted it is an old thread) evil players will be able to full loot people, is that not a good enough carrot?
Btw Good players won't be able to loot or fight other good players or risk automatic tribe booting.

[benz17]

It is not a tram version as that would constitute two identical worlds with one being completly safe and the other not ie would have been tram if there were two servers.

Tribes simply have a small safe zone which is not unlike UOs towns being safe for the most part. So he made a good solid decision. Everyone is still fair game off their land. Lets just wait it out and see what happen during the end and after prelude.

I am by the way Pro PVP .


Oh wow, glad to hear from a Pro Pee Vee Pee!


Now sarcasm aside, there is a huge difference between being able to destroy any assets that you desire (granted you have the skill, or the numbers, or some politician mastermind) AND being able to destroy assets only of those people who officially agreed to it.

Most people seem to not realize that, in 2011, in an open PvP game, it's not enough to be able to kill any person anywhere any way you like. It's also important to be able to stomp their crap into the ground. Burn down. Freaking disintegrate.

My problem is not safe zones. My problem is that carebears will be able to avoid being completely destroyed, just by clicking 'I DONT WANT A WAR' button.

[Dubanka]

Dubanka see here for some info concerning going evil:
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/32-Conflict-Death-Consequences-and-Decisions

In that thread (granted it is an old thread) evil players will be able to full loot people, is that not a good enough carrot?
Btw Good players won't be able to loot or fight other good players or risk automatic tribe booting.

full loot is mostly a joke right now...you just permission your bags so they can't be looted...if it's of value you put it in there and it's untouchable.

the pve crowd likes to throw up 'full loot' as the ultimate pvp carrot...it's nto really. It's nice. We like getting stuff for our effort, but it's not the end all and be all.

In a game like this we want to be able to shape the world through our actions, and we want everyone to be on the same page.

So if you can be invuln, and have the ability to completely dodge all accountability for your actions, or your mouth (in game)...what penalty do you get for that? or what bonus to i get for accepting more risk.

[Jadzia]

The bonus is that you will be able to siege and conquer other tribes who wish to do the same. If thats not enough then just don't be a warring tribe.

[Aramanu]

Thats a bug, and alignment is not even implemented yet, so i guess we will have to wait and see how it turns out. If you don't like that you can always get a refund until the game improves enough.

[baka77]

Jordi's decision today leads me to believe there is still hope that he will recognize what the game needs when the time for war comes. There are tons of ways he can make this work well, many of which have already been discussed in this & other threads. In the meantime, it's up to us to help convince him of it. :)

[baka77]

The bonus is that you will be able to siege and conquer other tribes who wish to do the same. If thats not enough then just don't be a warring tribe.

If Jordi makes it so only warring tribes have access to certain levels/styles of technology & crafting development, will Hopi have the balls to declare for war?

[wulvgar]

HAHA told you all things change nothing set in STONE

told you told you, going buy all the hardcore Pkers a box of tissues for there return trip to darkfail...bye bye

[randomt]

Well, I'm glad Jooky decided to think outside the box to fix the animal/homestead issue & keep us all together.

I just wish he had chosen to keep the rule set for WAR rather than PEACE.

Congrats you bunch of whining nitwits, now we're going to be stuck with over-population and no player growth, max-pop busy queues all the time, etc.

You should have whined to make the 2 servers stay equal with the original ruleset, not make him do bandaid quickfixes to the code to try to cram all of us into one server.

Idiots..

[jokhul]

If Jordi makes it so only warring tribes have access to certain levels/styles of technology & crafting development, will Hopi have the balls to declare for war?

Hopi will be declaring for war when the time comes, we don't need any incentives, lol.

But of course, incentives will be a nice cherry on top :D

[baka77]

Congrats you bunch of whining nitwits, now we're going to be stuck with over-population and no player growth, max-pop busy queues all the time, etc.

You should have whined to make the 2 servers stay equal with the original ruleset, not make him do bandaid quickfixes to the code to try to cram all of us into one server.

Idiots..

Be careful with bandying the word "idiot" around when you clearly don't understand why he needed two servers in the first place. He said point blank that it had NOTHING to do with lag or queues. It had to do with homesteads & animal populations. Use the search function. His team has come up with some cool resolutions to the issue (overlapping homesteads, hibernation, & expanding the mist soon), so now we all get to enjoy the game we signed up for & the game he always intended.

[baka77]

Hopi will be declaring for war when the time comes, we don't need any incentives, lol.

But of course, incentives will be a nice cherry on top :D

Super duper news, cheers! Being evil would have no meaning if there weren't paragons of good for us to attempt to topple.

[randomt]

Be careful with bandying the word "idiot" around when you clearly don't understand why he needed two servers in the first place. He said point blank that it had NOTHING to do with lag or queues. It had to do with homesteads & animal populations. Use the search function. His team has come up with some cool resolutions to the issue (overlapping homesteads & expanding the mist soon), so now we all get to enjoy the game we signed up for & the game he always intended.

Before acting all high and mighty there sir, maybe you should read the part where I said he's going to be doing bandaid quickfixes to try to make it work, despite the fact that it obviously didn't, or he'd never have suggested 2 servers to start with.

You people don't use your reasoning skills, you just have knee-jerk reactions to change, without even considering the underlying issues.

And Jooki is mighty dumb to be listening to you guys.. Haven't they learned anything from Roma Victor and the examples of other devs and such?

[Jadzia]

If Jordi makes it so only warring tribes have access to certain levels/styles of technology & crafting development, will Hopi have the balls to declare for war?

This question shows the main problem properly. Its not about having balls or epeens or anything like that...its about playing the game in the way you like. This is what Jordi does...gives options to every playstyle. You keep trying to push others to play the game in the way YOU like...you should understand that this is a game and we pay to have fun. What is fun for you is not fun for others. I'd never declare war to prove I have balls lol...I'd only declare if I find it fun. If anyone needs further bonuses for playing a warring tribe aside of the fun he gets from it then there is something wrong with his/her preferences. At the very moment when I find that being a warring tribe provides more fun than being a peaceful one I'll vote for war immediately.

[meatypickle]

Most people seem to not realize that, in 2011, in an open PvP game, it's not enough to be able to kill any person anywhere any way you like. It's also important to be able to stomp their crap into the ground. Burn down. Freaking disintegrate.




What game has this? I have not seen any open PvP games that are like this.

[randomt]

Don't mind the PVP types, they are back to being second class citizens, a minority player group in the grand scheme of things.. That's what they get for crying about 'splitting the population' (which is retarded, just about ALL mmo's do this.. it's the way it's done.. duh).

They will get to war when we consent to waring with them, else they can sit around looking pretty like everyone else :p

[TheDevi]

In my opinion 1 server with any ruleset is better than 2 servers with no players like darkfall.

[randomt]

In my opinion 1 server with any ruleset is better than 2 servers with no players like darkfall.

Until he has to sell the game to SoE for lack of subs on account of there being no room for new players to join in, no new tribes or homesteads.. what we start the game with will be all we have, because ALL viable land will be taken the first day (of totem placement)

Go explore the world, it's already pretty much the case.

[Escargot]

Be careful with bandying the word "idiot" around when you clearly don't understand why he needed two servers in the first place. He said point blank that it had NOTHING to do with lag or queues. It had to do with homesteads & animal populations. Use the search function. His team has come up with some cool resolutions to the issue (overlapping homesteads, hibernation, & expanding the mist soon), so now we all get to enjoy the game we signed up for & the game he always intended.


There's nothing in there about expanding the mist sooner. He directly said in another update they wouldn't be expanding the mist sooner, and why. You made that up in your head, just like you've made up in your head that he always intended a full ffa pvp game (he's directly said the opposite).

You persist in the idea that there needs to be some further penalty for not wanting to put up with silly kids who want to gank you any time, anywhere, and destroy what you've built. These ideas do not work in MMO's, because there's never enough accountability to offset the real mental, maturation, and sociopathic issues that cause people to want to gank, crush, and destroy at a whim, for imagined slights, and to vent childish frustration. Kids, mentally, physically, or both.

Not everyone who does that stuff does it for those reasons, but there's a HUGE number of them that do. There's no escaping having to deal with them in the full ffa world you want. I don't want to have to form a war party or join a huge tribe because Jimmy didn't get his daily dose of ritalin. This quote from you: "Most people seem to not realize that, in 2011, in an open PvP game, it's not enough to be able to kill any person anywhere any way you like. It's also important to be able to stomp their crap into the ground. Burn down. Freaking disintegrate." leads me to believe you're one of the ritalin kids.


Some people, who like pvp, dislike HAVING to deal with the kids ALL THE TIME, EVERYWHERE. It's nice that we're being given the choice.

[Banok]

Well, I'm glad Jooky decided to think outside the box to fix the animal/homestead issue & keep us all together.

I just wish he had chosen to keep the rule set for WAR rather than PEACE. As it stands, the concept of WAR is gone & we're all left playing on a huge PEACE server.

I'm fine with this under one condition. There need to be some major benefits to declaring as a warring tribe. It should not just be for shits & giggles. There should be some big juicy carrot to tempt the crafter tribes to declare for war. I'm thinking rare resources only available to tribes that declare for war, or something along those lines. No tribe should be able to have full access to everything without some element of risk involved.
I'm very happy with the decision but yes I agree about the carrot. there needs to be MASSIVE rewards to be had on non safezone territory, risk vs reward baby.

[baka77]

Before acting all high and mighty there sir, maybe you should read the part where I said he's going to be doing bandaid quickfixes to try to make it work, despite the fact that it obviously didn't, or he'd never have suggested 2 servers to start with.

You people don't use your reasoning skills, you just have knee-jerk reactions to change, without even considering the underlying issues.

And Jooki is mighty dumb to be listening to you guys.. Haven't they learned anything from Roma Victor and the examples of other devs and such?

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I read the situation like this. When he decided to split the servers, he was took a "easier but not better" route to deal with the problems. Now, after some spirited debate yesterday, he has reconsidered. He has now come up with some innovative solutions that may actually enhance game play, while allowing him (and us) to enjoy his original vision of the game. He is taking the "more difficult but better" route. I applaud him for it!

[TheDevi]

Until he has to sell the game to SoE for lack of subs on account of there being no room for new players to join in, no new tribes or homesteads.. what we start the game with will be all we have, because ALL viable land will be taken the first day (of totem placement)

Go explore the world, it's already pretty much the case.

Lmao... as the mist lifts there will be more space to put down your totem. Are you really scared of a little competition? Or are you just wanting to keep your precious spot you played with during beta? I think if you want to play a singleplayer game go play minecraft.

[Kiriath]

One server is how it should be, now its just up to the devs to figure out how to manage it, I have faith in them though.

[baka77]

There's nothing in there about expanding the mist sooner. He directly said in another update they wouldn't be expanding the mist sooner, and why. You made that up in your head, just like you've made up in your head that he always intended a full ffa pvp game (he's directly said the opposite).

You persist in the idea that there needs to be some further penalty for not wanting to put up with silly kids who want to gank you any time, anywhere, and destroy what you've built. These ideas do not work in MMO's, because there's never enough accountability to offset the real mental, maturation, and sociopathic issues that cause people to want to gank, crush, and destroy at a whim, for imagined slights, and to vent childish frustration. Kids, mentally, physically, or both.

Not everyone who does that stuff does it for those reasons, but there's a HUGE number of them that do. There's no escaping having to deal with them in the full ffa world you want. I don't want to have to form a war party or join a huge tribe because Jimmy didn't get his daily dose of ritalin. This quote from you: "Most people seem to not realize that, in 2011, in an open PvP game, it's not enough to be able to kill any person anywhere any way you like. It's also important to be able to stomp their crap into the ground. Burn down. Freaking disintegrate." leads me to believe you're one of the ritalin kids.


Some people, who like pvp, dislike HAVING to deal with the kids ALL THE TIME, EVERYWHERE. It's nice that we're being given the choice.

Although the lands beyond the green mist were created a long time ago, we spent a lot of time this past year improving the central active Tahoe zone. Our terrain artists are currently revising and improving the outer lands to match the central zone. The first expansion zone should be ready by the end of April. Currently, however, we can't clear the mist so we are limited to the Tahoe starting zone.

This was from yesterday's first update. The end of April is less than two months. Please link me to where he has rescinded this & stated that the mists won't be rolled back until later than this.

And I never said anything about a penalty for not flagging war...just no benefits. As I've stated here & in other threads, I'm thinking of a situation where certain crafting recipes will only be available to war tribes. You can play the rest of the game as you see fit. I'm not for forcing anyone to do anything. EvE works fine like this. If you want the very best stuff, you need to head down to 0.0 space.

[baka77]

Its not about having balls or epeens or anything like that...its about playing the game in the way you like.

LOL That was just some tongue-in-cheek teasing, dear.

As I've mentioned, I hope to see some tangible benefits for warring tribes like special combat weapon/armor recipes that are superior to what non-warring tribes can make. Special defensive structures that are cooler looking & stronger than what the peaceful can create. It really only makes sense. The natural progression of technology has often been directly related to the development of better war machines throughout human history.

This can be accomplished by having recipes that require certain crafting apparatuses that can only be placed on war-flagged tribe land.

The carebears can frolic in their safe zones all they like, but I don't think they should expect to have all the cool bells & whistles of tribes that are willing to risk everything for a small advantage. There are always consequences for both action & in-action. :)

[Escargot]

[B][I]
And I never said anything about a penalty for not flagging war...just no benefits. As I've stated here & in other threads, I'm thinking of a situation where certain crafting recipes will only be available to war tribes. You can play the rest of the game as you see fit. I'm not for forcing anyone to do anything. EvE works fine like this. If you want the very best stuff, you need to head down to 0.0 space.


I LIKE the idea that there would be, beyond the mist, areas of the map that are full ffa pvp. So the concept (like EVE) of heading out to 0,0 space to get the better stuff is fine. I'm all for the "sub-totem" thing where a tribe goes out and claims another area (beyond the mist), not thier original area, that has full ffa war attributes.

What I also want, is a refuge from all the garbage. So having our original tribe areas able to stay no-war gives me that...a place where I can do my thing in peace.

If that's the way it ends up, I'm a happy camper...cause I have the choice, day in and day out, whether I want to put up with increased risk and B.S. by heading out into the wilds, or have a quiet night "at home" getting stuff done.

[baka77]

I LIKE the idea that there would be, beyond the mist, areas of the map that are full ffa pvp. So the concept (like EVE) of heading out to 0,0 space to get the better stuff is fine. I'm all for the "sub-totem" thing where a tribe goes out and claims another area (beyond the mist), not thier original area, that has full ffa war attributes.

What I also want, is a refuge from all the garbage. So having our original tribe areas able to stay no-war gives me that...a place where I can do my thing in peace.

If that's the way it ends up, I'm a happy camper...cause I have the choice, day in and day out, whether I want to put up with increased risk and B.S. by heading out into the wilds, or have a quiet night "at home" getting stuff done.

Obviously I can't be sure of this, but I'd suspect the reputation/alignment system will prevent people from "having their cake & eating it too." If a tribe/person goes to the expansion zones & raises some hell, I'd guess their "home" settlement status will change with the tribe's alignment. We really don't know how it's gonna be shaped at this point, though.

[Bear5732]

Well obviously all you people wanting a "War" server, joined this game 9 months too early - I say come back after prelude and you will get your war server. Until then, why not let the developers finish the game as intended and already stated - I mean really?

Won't Pvp be more fun with ranged, magic, animal taming, and mounts? Not to mention a complete FFA PVP environment - thats what is slated for after prelude in roughly 9 months. You should just go play rift until then.

[ifireallymust]

It's not going to be peaceful for the solo players. The more I think about this change, the more I hate it. What the hell am I going to do when a tribe's land encompasses my (now even smaller) patch of land, and the tribe builds a damn fence around me? How will I even get out? I'll be killable, with no recourse to self-defense, in their fenced in territory.

This won't even work. This hasn't been thought through.

[Aramanu]

you negotiate with them.

[baka77]

you negotiate with them.

That, or you actually put a little thought into your homestead placement. Large tribes are going to be looking to set up shop in large flat areas right next to junk piles. Maybe explore a little until you find a smaller junk pile up in the mountains or on a nice flat spot far away from a starter zone.

[ifireallymust]

Oh yes, negotiating from the position of ultimate weakness.

That will go well.

Please stop pretending to be rationale when in reality, this doesn't affect your play style, gives you, in fact, every advantage, and you are in fact being selfishly, smugly pleased by the entire thing.

[wolfmoonstrike]

LOL That was just some tongue-in-cheek teasing, dear.

As I've mentioned, I hope to see some tangible benefits for warring tribes like special combat weapon/armor recipes that are superior to what non-warring tribes can make. Special defensive structures that are cooler looking & stronger than what the peaceful can create. It really only makes sense. The natural progression of technology has often been directly related to the development of better war machines throughout human history.

This can be accomplished by having recipes that require certain crafting apparatuses that can only be placed on war-flagged tribe land.

The carebears can frolic in their safe zones all they like, but I don't think they should expect to have all the cool bells & whistles of tribes that are willing to risk everything for a small advantage. There are always consequences for both action & in-action. :)

I agree, much of the technology we have today is due to countries trying to one up eachother in times of war or in preparation for war. I don't think we'd have microwaves, internet or other technologies if it wasn't for competition.

[Grass_Ninja]

u may want to look into that before u make ur assumptions as we can all see the first 3 letters of that word. and no i know for sure that is NOT how the internet came around :P try harder ur doing it wrong.

as for the small homesteads WTF? u have the ability to go ANYWHERE, ANY TIME!!! yet u would choose to take up land right on top of a massive tribe? lol what a joke. playstyle or not no one is stoping u; U CHOOSE to place ur playstyle in the way of the fires of proggress

[ifireallymust]

u may want to look into that before u make ur assumptions as we can all see the first 3 letters of that word. and no i know for sure that is NOT how the internet came around :P try harder ur doing it wrong.

as for the small homesteads WTF? u have the ability to go ANYWHERE, ANY TIME!!! yet u would choose to take up land right on top of a massive tribe? lol what a joke. playstyle or not no one is stoping u; U CHOOSE to place ur playstyle in the way of the fires of proggress

There isn't enough resources to go around. As you well know. And as you well know, a crafter can't craft, and a builder can't build much, and even a hunter or fighter can't do much without having access to a junkpile.

Once again, you tribes this benefit need to just admit, to yourselves, if not aloud, that this is fine with you because you aren't the ones getting screwed.

There is no rational, logical argument you can make beyond that, ultimately selfish one.

[baka77]

There isn't enough resources to go around. As you well know. And as you well know, a crafter can't craft, and a builder can't build much, and even a hunter or fighter can't do much without having access to a junkpile.

Once again, you tribes this benefit need to just admit, to yourselves, if not aloud, that this is fine with you because you aren't the ones getting screwed.

There is no rational, logical argument you can make beyond that, ultimately selfish one.

I was always under the impression that the original design never included homesteads & they are rather recent development. Also, the game is designed on purpose to have limited resources. If Jordi wanted everyone to have everything all the time & never have any conflict, then every totem would come with its own small unlimited junk pile.

I know you homestead guys feel like you're getting bent over today, but I'm sure if the game is so horribly balanced against you once we're live...Jordi will do something. If anything, the last couple days have shown that he cares a lot about trying to please everyone as best he can.

[Aethaeryn]

LOL That was just some tongue-in-cheek teasing, dear.

As I've mentioned, I hope to see some tangible benefits for warring tribes like special combat weapon/armor recipes that are superior to what non-warring tribes can make. Special defensive structures that are cooler looking & stronger than what the peaceful can create. It really only makes sense. The natural progression of technology has often been directly related to the development of better war machines throughout human history.

This can be accomplished by having recipes that require certain crafting apparatuses that can only be placed on war-flagged tribe land.

The carebears can frolic in their safe zones all they like, but I don't think they should expect to have all the cool bells & whistles of tribes that are willing to risk everything for a small advantage. There are always consequences for both action & in-action. :)

I will argue that just because it is what I do. The progression of technology as it relates to war machines only happened after people started to settle. Once they really started to settle and take on peaceful pursuits like reading, writing. . science etc. is when it really started to take off. War drives the greatest inventions out of necessity but pulls from all of the peaceful practices that take place the rest of the time. THE US since Vietnam might be the exception since they have pretty much always been at war. . but look at where they are now economically.

Also consider this. Who risks less. . the tribe of warriors who want to PvP all day or the tribe of crafters if safe zones are turned off? PvPers plan combat and do crafting in their downtime. Crafters do the opposite.

If you would argue that warring tribes should get some cool armour etc. I would agree. I would also think that peaceful tribes focused on technology should get something as well. More wall types whatever. They are putting as much into the game playing they way they like.

I would chose PvP and a warring tribe because that is how I want to play. The reward you get is the fun of knowing someone could attack your tribe.. . hunting down and fighting and ultimately destroying a tribe that thinks they can handle it. . the reward is the chance to play the game you want. The reward for PvErs is the safety of their village and only their village mind you. Both playstyles are rewarded with the game they want.

[benz17]

What game has this? I have not seen any open PvP games that are like this.

Darkfall: kill anyone anywhere AND come to their city, destroy it, burn it to the ground and take it from them. Penalties for PK are pretty much non-existant. Best PvP game ruined by terrible, unbearable grind.

Shadowbane (dead but almost revived via SBEmu): kill anyone anywhere AND come to their city, destroy it, burn it to the ground and either take it from them, OR wipe the hell off the map. Not only penalties for PK are non-existant, but there are actually rewards (except for loot), for example, you get experience for PKing another player. Best MMORPG ever, was when it started in 2002 and still is.

The only two games which are worth mentioning (besides UO) when you talk about open PvP world.

[ifireallymust]

I was always under the impression that the original design never included homesteads & they are rather recent development. Also, the game is designed on purpose to have limited resources. If Jordi wanted everyone to have everything all the time & never have any conflict, then every totem would come with its own small unlimited junk pile.

I know you homestead guys feel like you're getting bent over today, but I'm sure if the game is so horribly balanced against you once we're live...Jordi will do something. If anything, the last couple days have shown that he cares a lot about trying to please everyone as best he can.

I know he cares, or I would ask for my money back, shut up in disgust, and leave.

But I wish he'd never put homesteads in if he didn't intend to make solo play viable.

However, I don't think he came up with this idea in order to make solo play unviable. I hope not. Otherwise, I can't play. :( Or I can play, but in a PKer, nasty style that I really don't enjoy, and that no one I encounter will much enjoy, either.

[baka77]

If you would argue that warring tribes should get some cool armour etc. I would agree. I would also think that peaceful tribes focused on technology should get something as well. More wall types whatever. They are putting as much into the game playing they way they like.


Funny enough, I just posted this exact same thing in another thread. War tribes will get faster access to combat-related crafting, while peace tribes will get faster access to social/world-building crafting (I chose the example of ping pong tables & fountain gardens lol). Either way, I think we're working toward some cool compromises.

If the crafters want to have the best gear to protect their gatherers in the field, let 'em flag up. Conversely, if a war tribe wants a cooler looking town with more social structures, they better start being nice & hope Jordi includes a means to become peaceful over time.

[Aethaeryn]

Funny enough, I just posted this exact same thing in another thread. War tribes will get faster access to combat-related crafting, while peace tribes will get faster access to social/world-building crafting (I chose the example of ping pong tables & fountain gardens lol). Either way, I think we're working toward some cool compromises.

If the crafters want to have the best gear to protect their gatherers in the field, let 'em flag up. Conversely, if a war tribe wants a cooler looking town with more social structures, they better start being nice & hope Jordi includes a means to become peaceful over time.

That sounds great.

[Escargot]

Obviously I can't be sure of this, but I'd suspect the reputation/alignment system will prevent people from "having their cake & eating it too." If a tribe/person goes to the expansion zones & raises some hell, I'd guess their "home" settlement status will change with the tribe's alignment. We really don't know how it's gonna be shaped at this point, though.


I'm not planning on going out to the wilds to raise hell. I'd be going out there to kill critters, get resources, and explore. I very much doubt I'll ever attack anyone in this game I don't have very good reason to think is about to attack me first. I'm just a nice guy like that and all :P

On the other hand, I've spent over 20 rl years playing multiplayer/mmo games on the internet. I can more than take care of myself :)

[wolfmoonstrike]

Funny enough, I just posted this exact same thing in another thread. War tribes will get faster access to combat-related crafting, while peace tribes will get faster access to social/world-building crafting (I chose the example of ping pong tables & fountain gardens lol). Either way, I think we're working toward some cool compromises.

If the crafters want to have the best gear to protect their gatherers in the field, let 'em flag up. Conversely, if a war tribe wants a cooler looking town with more social structures, they better start being nice & hope Jordi includes a means to become peaceful over time.

I have a couple of problem with the peace side of this. One is you can go from peace to war with a switch but not back to peace easily, so a peaceful tribe could build social structures and what not but then switch to war to start gettign all the war stuff. Second is when you flag for war you are risking your neck and having better tech is just a carrot for going to war; the peaceful aren't risking anything more than what everybody risks, why should they get buffs?

[Aethaeryn]

I have a couple of problem with the peace side of this. One is you can go from peace to war with a switch but not back to peace easily, so a peaceful tribe could build social structures and what not but then switch to war to start gettign all the war stuff. Second is when you flag for war you are risking your neck and having better tech is just a carrot for going to war; the peaceful aren't risking anything more than what everybody risks, why should they get buffs?

I guess one way around this is decay of items and loss of skills etc. . that is the only way I can see around what you mention. Once they go war they simply lose the peace recipies (these are bonus not core) and the things they have build are decaying. By the time they start learning new things their old stuff is crumbling.

OR the war stuff comes with actual combat experience. ie. war tribes gain experience for combat. . it would be exploited all to #$%# but there might be some way.

[wolfmoonstrike]

I guess one way around this is decay of items and loss of skills etc. . that is the only way I can see around what you mention. Once they go war they simply lose the peace recipies (these are bonus not core) and the things they have build are decaying. By the time they start learning new things their old stuff is crumbling.

OR the war stuff comes with actual combat experience. ie. war tribes gain experience for combat. . it would be exploited all to #$%# but there might be some way.

Well the peaceful also likely will have the benefit of being trade hubs and will end up richer than a warring tribe (wars cost money, you need equips). I mean for me tech always seems to get better with competition and if the peaceful have a way to risk their stuff but in a peaceful way, maybe through trading or other big things that doesn't necessarily mean fighting then I totally agree with peace getting other game mechanic benefits. If not, they don't deserve rewards just for being peaceful.

[Aethaeryn]

Well the peaceful also likely will have the benefit of being trade hubs and will end up richer than a warring tribe (wars cost money, you need equips). I mean for me tech always seems to get better with competition and if the peaceful have a way to risk their stuff but in a peaceful way, maybe through trading or other big things that doesn't necessarily mean fighting then I totally agree with peace getting other game mechanic benefits. If not, they don't deserve rewards just for being peaceful.

Well maybe they should just get vendor stalls :)

Of course there is nothing from stopping a Pandemic Craft tribe that is full of recruited carebears. . has trade stalls and is right beside Pandemic KLLZJU tribe. You also would have the advantage or selling what you loot there. Well. . loot is mostly going to be garbage though I suppose. Have the warriors in the war tribe. Honestly that is what a large tribe should be looking at. Hopi for example might benefit from that and then you could duke it out all you want and tear down each others war factions.. . . man that makes it no risk for anyone and is already possible given what we expect to happen. I think I just argued against having safe tribal areas at all. Stream of thought that changed my own mind FTW.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Well maybe they should just get vendor stalls :)

Of course there is nothing from stopping a Pandemic Craft tribe that is full of recruited carebears. . has trade stalls and is right beside Pandemic KLLZJU tribe. You also would have the advantage or selling what you loot there. Well. . loot is mostly going to be garbage though I suppose. Have the warriors in the war tribe. Honestly that is what a large tribe should be looking at. Hopi for example might benefit from that and then you could duke it out all you want and tear down each others war factions.. . . man that makes it no risk for anyone and is already possible given what we expect to happen. I think I just argued against having safe tribal areas at all. Stream of thought that changed my own mind FTW.

Yup my same thoughts and problems with safezones. I honestly don't think peace should be given but should be earned. Either through diplomacy or by force. IF you want peace, be the best defensive minded tribe in the game and enforce peace in your cities. I honestly think safezones may make it where people don't have to take accountability for their actions by abusing the safezones. Though I also believe their should be harsher penalties for death, and everybody should be included in those penalties. People should have to pay for both their actions and inactions.

[river111]

Well, I'm fine with this under one condition. There need to be some major benefits to declaring as a warring tribe. It should not just be for shits & giggles. There should be some big juicy carrot to tempt the crafter tribes to declare for war. I'm thinking rare resources only available to tribes that declare for war, or something along those lines. No tribe should be able to have full access to everything without some element of risk involved.


I'm very happy with the decision but yes I agree about the carrot. there needs to be MASSIVE rewards to be had on non safezone territory, risk vs reward baby.

I'm completely missing this one here, you chose to engage in a particular play style. By choice, and you expect a reward for chosing it?

Let me see if I get this one right. If the game has some carrot for the war tribes, lets say this rare crafting mat or something. Does this not FORCE the peopel who craft to be a part of the war tribes even if they do not want to in order to get that rare crafting mat?

So while you actively chose to go to war, you want a carrot that forces those that do not want to go to war, to have to go to war. Is that what I'm seeing here?

I'm fine with risk vs reward yes, but allowing one to chose and others having no choice is not acceptable to me. Any reward put in must NOT be something that those on the other side of the choice need as well to play the way they chose.

This idea you have here is similar to the rare mats in WoW dungeons and raids. Which forces people who like to craft but do not like doing raids to have to do raids to get the mats and recipes so they can play as a crafter. Yet in reverse, there is no requirement for a raider to have to craft in order to do what they like, raiding. It has to go both ways. If your reward, your carrot is only usable by those who chose your path thats fine and good to go, but I will not go for a carrot that forces people to play a style they do not want to play.

[wolfmoonstrike]

I'm completely missing this one here, you chose to engage in a particular play style. By choice, and you expect a reward for chosing it?

Let me see if I get this one right. If the game has some carrot for the war tribes, lets say this rare crafting mat or something. Does this not FORCE the peopel who craft to be a part of the war tribes even if they do not want to in order to get that rare crafting mat?

So while you actively chose to go to war, you want a carrot that forces those that do not want to go to war, to have to go to war. Is that what I'm seeing here?

I'm fine with risk vs reward yes, but allowing one to chose and others having no choice is not acceptable to me. Any reward put in must NOT be something that those on the other side of the choice need as well to play the way they chose.

This idea you have here is similar to the rare mats in WoW dungeons and raids. Which forces people who like to craft but do not like doing raids to have to do raids to get the mats and recipes so they can play as a crafter. Yet in reverse, there is no requirement for a raider to have to craft in order to do what they like, raiding. It has to go both ways. If your reward, your carrot is only usable by those who chose your path thats fine and good to go, but I will not go for a carrot that forces people to play a style they do not want to play.

The peaceful aren't being hampered in their play style by rewarding the warriors, but the warriors are accenting the peaceful players. See the peaceful chose to be peaceful and thus are being rewarded by not having to fight or even defending themselves and trading for what they want. The warriors are risking their land to gain more land and thus are rewarded by having better resources and technologies derived from those resources.

No Risk means No Reward imo. If you want something you should risk something to get it, which the warriors are.

[river111]

The peaceful aren't being hampered in their play style by rewarding the warriors, but the warriors are accenting the peaceful players. See the peaceful chose to be peaceful and thus are being rewarded by not having to fight or even defending themselves and trading for what they want. The warriors are risking their land to gain more land and thus are rewarded by having better resources and technologies derived from those resources.

No Risk means No Reward imo. If you want something you should risk something to get it, which the warriors are.

Thats fine yes, as long as the reward you get for going to war is NOT something needed by those who do not chose to go to war. Not sure your understanding what I'm saying here. Its not that the peaceful deserve no reward or that the ones taking the risk deserve one, its WHAT that reward is.

If you make that reward anythign that places a significant margin between the two types over time you risk a complete imbalance in the game. Lets say for instance you give the war tribes access to a rare resource that allows them to make a type of armor that normal crafted weapons can't hit. That the only way to hurt someone wearing this armor is to craft a weapon that also requires this rare resource to make. Now, add 6 months to the timeline.

In 6 months time all the war tribes have become completely invulnerable to all the peaceful tribes. And any peaceful or 'new' tribe that just entered the game will never be able to compete on the same level with the existing war tribes. Sure this is great if your in the game called EvE where if you have been in it since launch, your corp is basically untouchable by anyone who just enters the game today. But is that what you really want here?

And on the other hand, if that rare resource you get for becoming a war tribe allows for something to be crafted that lets you build a special building which decreases the decay timers on everything stored in it. Now you give an unfair advantage to the war tribes, and if the peaceful tribes want that building they would be forced to become a war tribe to get it, even if they really do not want to.

Hopefully you can see my point on this carrot issue. Its not that I dont think there should be one, and I do not think there shouldnt be a risk/reward added, but you have to be very careful on what that reward is.

[baka77]

Thats fine yes, as long as the reward you get for going to war is NOT something needed by those who do not chose to go to war. Not sure your understanding what I'm saying here. Its not that the peaceful deserve no reward or that the ones taking the risk deserve one, its WHAT that reward is.

If you make that reward anythign that places a significant margin between the two types over time you risk a complete imbalance in the game. Lets say for instance you give the war tribes access to a rare resource that allows them to make a type of armor that normal crafted weapons can't hit. That the only way to hurt someone wearing this armor is to craft a weapon that also requires this rare resource to make. Now, add 6 months to the timeline.

In 6 months time all the war tribes have become completely invulnerable to all the peaceful tribes. And any peaceful or 'new' tribe that just entered the game will never be able to compete on the same level with the existing war tribes. Sure this is great if your in the game called EvE where if you have been in it since launch, your corp is basically untouchable by anyone who just enters the game today. But is that what you really want here?

And on the other hand, if that rare resource you get for becoming a war tribe allows for something to be crafted that lets you build a special building which decreases the decay timers on everything stored in it. Now you give an unfair advantage to the war tribes, and if the peaceful tribes want that building they would be forced to become a war tribe to get it, even if they really do not want to.

Hopefully you can see my point on this carrot issue. Its not that I dont think there should be one, and I do not think there shouldnt be a risk/reward added, but you have to be very careful on what that reward is.

Your scenario is too extreme. The margin should not be to the level of invulnerability, but it should be to the level of advantage. The carebears should have to decide if having combat capability on equal footing is worth giving up their precious safe zones. It's all about choices. I think it would be silly to allow only one side to have their cake & eat it too.

[Maciver]

Personally, I would prefer no safe zones. Mainly because it's artificial, and dumbs down the game.

On the other hand. Theres entirely way to many people who wont see the bigger picture, what this game can actually become. These are the people that run around, grief, kill for no reason, and be an immature pos. They are the ones we can thank for the need of artificial boundries in gaming.

PvP is alot of fun. I love it, which is why I wouldnt want the safe area. The mechanics that are in mind now, make the game less appealing.

If it were me, I would make a simple compromise. On server open, turn pvp off completely for a week or two. Enough time for people to get a peice of land and throw a wall up. Then turn it on fully. No magic safe area. Griefers are bricked for the open, then its up to the player to protect his community/town/area. Just my opinion.

[Burnt]

Personally, I would prefer no safe zones. Mainly because it's artificial, and dumbs down the game.

On the other hand. Theres entirely way to many people who wont see the bigger picture, what this game can actually become. These are the people that run around, grief, kill for no reason, and be an immature pos. They are the ones we can thank for the need of artificial boundries in gaming.

PvP is alot of fun. I love it, which is why I wouldnt want the safe area. The mechanics that are in mind now, make the game less appealing.

If it were me, I would make a simple compromise. On server open, turn pvp off completely for a week or two. Enough time for people to get a piece of land and throw a wall up. Then turn it on fully. No magic safe area. Griefers are bricked for the open, then its up to the player to protect his community/town/area. Just my opinion.

Thats basically what is planned anyway, just replace "two weeks" with 6-9 months, and "throw a wall up", to build walls, gates, defense and so on. The 6-9 months is time for development of features that are needed before there are no safe zones, such as pvp, alignment, tribal warfare etc. etc.

[river111]

Your scenario is too extreme. The margin should not be to the level of invulnerability, but it should be to the level of advantage. The carebears should have to decide if having combat capability on equal footing is worth giving up their precious safe zones. It's all about choices. I think it would be silly to allow only one side to have their cake & eat it too.

I think it would be silly to give one side their cake % eat it too, and thats exactly what I'm saying just form the other side. How about we reverse your statement a little. Lets give a rerward to those that can successfully foster diplomacy and a healthy polical structure, and NOT to the warmongers. Still in favor of a level of advantage? The way I see this argument is simple, you believe the advantage should go to those who foster war, and only those that foster war, and that if you dont foster war, then you shouldnt' get a level advantage. I say no. I think the warmongers should have to try and play poletics, I think they should have to decide it having to maintain peace is worth getting an equal footing with the carebears.

I know your going to twist this all around and say its stupid, I expect nothing less to be honest. Fact remains though, you want it your way, to your advantage, because you chose to play one style, and you feel anyone who doesn't chose your style of play should either get on bored or get lost. I agree, I think you should get on board with my chosen play style or get lost. I think all PvPers should be forced to become carebears or they wont get the advantages they get.

Still think its a fair argument?

[Bear5732]

You people complaining about homesteads need to get out of your comfort zone and explore. There are tons of junk piles in and around the mist, where very few tribes settle (if any) - there are junkpiles in the mountains, there are resources everywhere. Hell, you can live in a junkpile in the mist, near water/trees and animals, and no one will ever even know you are there.

[Aethaeryn]

You people complaining about homesteads need to get out of your comfort zone and explore. There are tons of junk piles in and around the mist, where very few tribes settle (if any) - there are junkpiles in the mountains, there are resources everywhere. Hell, you can live in a junkpile in the mist, near water/trees and animals, and no one will ever even know you are there.

Shhhhh

[ArrakisTheDragon]

Whats with all the bickering? Can't we all just get along and sit around the campfire like in Avatar (everyone must wear the weird speedo thong looking things...hope you dont have saggy balls) Anyway......

From all the other posts of War, Peace, Neutral blah blah blah.....
When it comes to war, I am for the "sub-totems" for new lands, gives a tribe a chance to expand but..... if that tribe goes to war in the mist, all of their lands should be vulnerable. I mean, lets get real. Its like if the US were to invade China and then tells Russia that they cant invade our homeland because its in "the safe zone" because otherwise we would be vulnurable. When war is the final answer, tribes must actually stop and think before they go about attacking other tribes and look at it from all angles. For the "Neutral Tribes" honestly..... tell me when have you heard of a "neutral people", there is no neutrality in RL, if someone says so they are lying (its like a dude that doesnt admit to jacking off ever in his life). Theres always.....always something that the neutral state will not tell you that they are doing, just saying.

Junkpiles.....Google Earth anyone????? Doesnt take that long to download it and it will show you a good estimate for prospecting possible junk sites, so far its pretty accurate. The place where we are at is some type of manufactoring company ruin. When the mist opens up, Carson City (Which you can see from the Eastern Mountains) will be up for grabs and its literally junk far beyond the eyes can see. Sorry south, dont see big cities down your way according to Google Earth, the west has a few but Los Vegas will definately be up for grabs if they expand that far. Then again thats probably further down the road when mounts/vehicular transportation come about.

[jumpshot]

Since he brought up the new unopened areas in the same breath as the single server...

And i hate to make the eve reference, but...

... could it be the new areas that are No Safe Zone will be the only place to get resources other than junk?

If not they should be.

[chase78]

Remember everyone, this is just the starter area...

[baka77]

Whats with all the bickering? Can't we all just get along and sit around the campfire like in Avatar (everyone must wear the weird speedo thong looking things...hope you dont have saggy balls) Anyway......

From all the other posts of War, Peace, Neutral blah blah blah.....
When it comes to war, I am for the "sub-totems" for new lands, gives a tribe a chance to expand but..... if that tribe goes to war in the mist, all of their lands should be vulnerable. I mean, lets get real. Its like if the US were to invade China and then tells Russia that they cant invade our homeland because its in "the safe zone" because otherwise we would be vulnurable. When war is the final answer, tribes must actually stop and think before they go about attacking other tribes and look at it from all angles. For the "Neutral Tribes" honestly..... tell me when have you heard of a "neutral people", there is no neutrality in RL, if someone says so they are lying (its like a dude that doesnt admit to jacking off ever in his life). Theres always.....always something that the neutral state will not tell you that they are doing, just saying.

Junkpiles.....Google Earth anyone????? Doesnt take that long to download it and it will show you a good estimate for prospecting possible junk sites, so far its pretty accurate. The place where we are at is some type of manufactoring company ruin. When the mist opens up, Carson City (Which you can see from the Eastern Mountains) will be up for grabs and its literally junk far beyond the eyes can see. Sorry south, dont see big cities down your way according to Google Earth, the west has a few but Los Vegas will definately be up for grabs if they expand that far. Then again thats probably further down the road when mounts/vehicular transportation come about.

Shhhh...you're ruining the advantage for the people smart enough to figure this out. Natural selection, baby! :)