PvP vs. PK and some general impressions [Archive] - Page 3

Whitehawk

03-31-2010, 03:37 AM

I think a lot of us that came over from Darkfall arent seeing the big picture of this game. We're used to no softcap on skills, and (basically) no punishment for being "evil." Those two no-brainer ideas will make this a very different game. We wont be masters of everything and above the law here.

That being said, its not going to be carebear heaven either. Its open pvp, and despite the penalties (which will scare off most of the retards) you're still going to have dedicated pkers. Its fun to be the badguy, and its fun to fight against the odds. People will do it.

PKers will be the least of your worries though. People will pay for two accounts, pk you with one, and join your tribe with their crafter alt and pretend to be your best friend. Your tribe will have spies that give info to your enemies, steal from the clan, and sabotage you in every way they can. Its political competition, and its going to be dirty.

So, like i said in an earlier post, i think you carebear guys are gonna need to grow a thicker skin to play a game like this. I think the DF crowd is going to have to realize that this is a very different game too. Hopefully the devs will be able to force both groups to cooperate and form a symbiotic relationship in order to succeed, where tribes have armies and civilians, like a real society..... but I'd be amazed if it worked out that well.

Crisco Twister

03-31-2010, 03:46 AM

True this is a different game, but a lot of people are attracted to the pvp and how good it is. The other features are definetily cool, but the pvp (and this is in like all games) draws people to or away from it.

Lardocrul

03-31-2010, 03:56 AM

I am sure most players are smart enough to play a style that brings joy to PVP-Players as well as to the so-called carebears.

Extensiv PVP or "Carebearing" will destroy the fun for all players but the devs will hopefully balance it.

VowOfSilence

04-01-2010, 03:26 PM

some food for thought about pvp sandboxes in general:

Maybe like a couple articles I've read at mmorpg suggested, sandbox games are doomed to failure despite the huge desire in the gaming world to have someone make a good one. It's because of the 2 distinct types of gamers it attracts, whom when they meet, clash in an unbalancable manner and so all sandboxes fail. I guess the answer could be a double server sandbox in which some simple mechanic is allowed on one but not the other. I think I've seen a couple games do that in the high grade pvp genre.

In the end such a thing may be the only way to finally make a sandbox that actually lasts. Espcially since the dislike between the two types is so venomous. 2 opposite and not very nice views could hardly ever co-exist within the same game in a successful level. This may be why no gaming company with real money at stake has even taken this genre seriously or as a possible workable gaming platform.

Jadzia

04-01-2010, 03:40 PM

VowOfSilence wrote:

some food for thought about pvp sandboxes in general:

Maybe like a couple articles I've read at mmorpg suggested, sandbox games are doomed to failure despite the huge desire in the gaming world to have someone make a good one. It's because of the 2 distinct types of gamers it attracts, whom when they meet, clash in an unbalancable manner and so all sandboxes fail. I guess the answer could be a double server sandbox in which some simple mechanic is allowed on one but not the other. I think I've seen a couple games do that in the high grade pvp genre.

In the end such a thing may be the only way to finally make a sandbox that actually lasts. Espcially since the dislike between the two types is so venomous. 2 opposite and not very nice views could hardly ever co-exist within the same game in a successful level. This may be why no gaming company with real money at stake has even taken this genre seriously or as a possible workable gaming platform.

Interesting read, may I ask where did you find it ?

Ciik

04-01-2010, 05:10 PM

Some additional food for thought about sandboxes in-general.

Why not? Build a proper sandbox. (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3365/Dana-Massey-Asks-Why-Not-Build-A-Proper-Sandb)

The idea of freedom is where so many more recent attempts at sandbox MMOs have gone terribly wrong. A sandbox MMO is not necessarily a hardcore experience. Ultima Online could be quite hardcore, but that was the beauty of it. It was, at its root, whatever the user made of it. For some, that meant hardcore PvP. For others, that meant picking berries or begging for change. What made UO magical is that it brought everyone in. It was open, it was inclusive.

Sandbox MMOs are also about far more than combat. This is where Darkfall misses the mark for me. Yes, it has a wealth of options in its design, but fair or not, it's developed a reputation as a hardcore PvP world. It's all about killing and looting. This is not options. The beauty of UO was the ability to be a minstrel, an author, or fisherman. Not everyone wanted to be a warrior, and even those that were, could easily slip off that one persona and show off a whole new side to their personality.

In fact, UO took it even a step further. Not only did the skill system promote the mastery of skills that had absolutely no combat benefit or application, but the world itself allowed people to develop themselves even further. There were poets in UO. There was no poetry skill, but people used the books to create their own niche inside that world.

Jadzia

04-01-2010, 06:00 PM

Sigh...thats what I'm trying to find in Xsyon...a game what is not built only around combat...

sisler86

04-01-2010, 06:05 PM

Jadzia wrote:

Sigh...thats what I'm trying to find in Xsyon...a game what is not built only around combat...

I think this game is aiming better than most to be that balance like UO was.

Jadzia

04-01-2010, 06:10 PM

I do hope so !

Ruinous

04-01-2010, 06:30 PM

As a PVPer, if crafters were to have me in their tribe and kit me with the best armour, weapons, kit I'd have a ball protecting them from PKs. The PKs get someone to fight who will put up a 'challenge', I get my kicks out of being the hero and being well rewarded for my service and the Pve-orientated folks get protected.

Just food for thought... ofc I know being the sole protector is likely to get me killed, but a tribe of pve'ers could afford to have plenty warrior types around I would think. Win/Win for all concerned imho.

sisler86

04-01-2010, 06:43 PM

Ruinous wrote:

As a PVPer, if crafters were to have me in their tribe and kit me with the best armour, weapons, kit I'd have a ball protecting them from PKs. The PKs get someone to fight who will put up a 'challenge', I get my kicks out of being the hero and being well rewarded for my service and the Pve-orientated folks get protected.

Just food for thought... ofc I know being the sole protector is likely to get me killed, but a tribe of pve'ers could afford to have plenty warrior types around I would think. Win/Win for all concerned imho.

You in a tribe yet? If not you should definitely check us out. We could use someone like you.

Ruinous

04-01-2010, 07:17 PM

I'm not sure if some friends are joining or not, but I'll be sure to check your tribe out. Thanks :)

Karasu

04-02-2010, 08:50 AM

Ruinous wrote:

Just food for thought... ofc I know being the sole protector is likely to get me killed, but a tribe of pve'ers could afford to have plenty warrior types around I would think. Win/Win for all concerned imho.

I assume there are going to be many tribes like this in Xyson. At least that what ATS is shaping up to do. We have a lot of players who really like to spend their time crafting and gathering, and we have a lot of players who like to spend their time killing other people, the two compliment each other...thought this was normal for a game like this?

Ajax

04-02-2010, 10:52 AM

I did not read the previous 52 pages of text (skimmed over some of it) so I am sorry if some of what I say reflects similar thoughts of others.

After reading some of this thread I thought I would throw my 2 cents in on the matter.

Please Note : The views expressed here are simply my opinions.

First off I would like to define a sandbox mmo in my own words. A sandbox mmo is one in which the players make the bulk of the rules and game play is determined based on players actions and interactions with little intervention on the part of the development team.

This being the case, in this particular situation, griefers must be dealt with by the player base. It is up to us as players to determine what laws we lay down in the lands of Xsyon, what rules are enforced, much the same as a clan has rules within itself to maintain order and harmony. PvE'ers and PvP'ers should be working hand in hand to provide for each others weaknesses, there is no need to play the game as if it was a console game, this is a MULTIPLAYER GAME, if the only thing you care about is yourself then go play xbox or something. Our interactions as players will be what determines weather or not the game is fun or successful, not the griefers.

The question that should be being asked is not "Why do they allow ffa pvp?" or "what do pve'ers have to gain from ffa pvp?". What should be being asked is what are we, as the players, going to do about the griefing? The table is already set, now we need to decide how we are going to eat at it.

Some tribes may take the honorable route of forbidding the "ganking/griefing" of noobs and crafters. Some may create pacts with non-pvp clans and exchange protection for goods. Some PvE tribes may take the route of bribing the enemy to leave them alone. Some tribes may form up purely to combat griefers.

Without pve'ers yes the griefers won't have anyone to grief, but without pve'ers the pvp'ers also lose a purpose for pvp, one that has been around for eternity, defense of the weak. All throughout every form of civilization there have been the warriors who defended the townspeople. If we choose to play the game as a mmo instead of a single player game then we could work together well to create a community where griefing is not rampant, where PvP is honorable between those who wish a challenge, where crafters and rp'ers can live in peace.

Think about the game from the perspective of what it is intended to be, an Online Virtual Fantasy World where anything is possible. Once you have done this you will realize that we as players can make anything happen or not happen.

kiwibird

04-05-2010, 02:01 AM

I read up to page 10~ and then decided to screw reading and post, I want to play my game :P

@ PKers:
I risk the possibility that real life with have a twist and the time I registered to the game goes unused, I risk the possibility of finding some creature in the wild and finding out that one snap of its jaws and I now no longer have a left left.

I risk a lot when I play with someone who thinks its okay to take what they like without regards to how someone else got such items. But who cares about me, when all said and done, you are the only one that matters?

(Did you ask me how to get such item? How about asking if I would sell such item? Have you talked to me at all other than thinking I may or may not have a item of worth if you decided to attack my avatar? Do you not care about these questions?)

What I care about is the ability to sanction such players. Be it place you in a jail system run by players, where you have to pay me back 1.5x the amount you stole, or a month (game time) of hard labour per person you are convicted of killing. Or more easier ways to inflict a punishment on you. I don't care if that means your game sucks, you did something that you know is wrong, I don't care if its in a game or not; I paid for this game, why should I suffer if you choose to play this style of character. You choose the choices to do whatever, live with it.

At the end of the day, my 60 dollars for an initial fee and an 25 dollar on-going fee is just as good as yours. (Dollars round-up to closet 5 in local currency.)

@ Carebears:
PKing has its value in that it's acceptable to happen because the game allows it. If a game don't allow it, it's simply don't possible or possible with consequences.

But that means at the end of the day, that it becomes something of a, "wait {time_frame} for a fix" or develop skills to fight the players.

@ Everyone:
Forcing someone to play a role in a game is not going to happen. I don't care if PvP and PvE is merged into one server, provided I know that if KillerAttackingBot goes on to attack players for no reason other than "I'm bored", "It's fun", "Noob"... I can do something about it, but by not using violence.

I won't play the role of Village Guard, nor will I play the role of Village Dead_Person. I wont choose either even if its PvP or Carebear - choose one and only one. I mix and match when and if I feel like it and should be free to do so whenever and however I like, not because KillerAttackingBot forced my hand.

How about ways to prevent it? Traps, magic, skills and knowledge could all be used to stop it. How about land ownership and NPC guards?

Traps could be as simple as a tree covering the mine entrance, or as advanced as wire strung from the tree that will cut you to pieces.

Pits that fall into the ground with sharp sticks at the bottom, lets hope an ambush wasn't planned and someone places a wooden barrier between the surface and the pit and trapping you down they log out. It sucks to be PKed... but it also sucks to be forced to keep a PKer trapped till the time is right.

How about a magic charm that detects movement, upgrade it and it detects movement of non-allied players, upgrade it again and it sense players before they come in-contact with the charm, upgrade again and it becomes a mini-map of the area. At each stage the warning types increase.

Just imagine an email system. At the highest stage of the charm being upgraded it takes 1hour to send out a warning email message, "Warning, charm {charm_name} has detected hostile forces approaching." Upgrade it again to get that email after 30minutes of detection. Upgrade to increase the size it can detect and monitor and warns you with 1hour delay, and the final upgrade to have the larger area with a delay of 30minutes.

Travel could be an issue as well and depending on what is and is not possible in the game a link to "teleport" to a certain location could be great.

We know nothing of the game, so any ideas or the like are what we feel is right. But the problem is code and resources, can that be coded and be tested for bugs in a timely manner? Probably not.

Kyrmius

04-07-2010, 02:08 PM

Largion wrote:

Why do you even want to play a game that have pvp options or even a online game?

Good question, a worthy question.

Almost all of the best Sandbox MMOs are PvP. So if you like/love PvP and also like/love experiencing a virtual reality in regards to altering the environment, REAL crafting, realistic virtual living, then you are all set. Especially it seems in Xsyon.

But what if you want to experience everything a sandbox MMO has to offer EXCEPT PvP/PK (to me there is absolutely no difference)?

Then you are screwed like me. I love sandbox MMOs except for the killing characters part. If you can't understand why I am this way or why I can't PvP, well even I am not completely sure myself, all I can say is it is the way I am. All I know is it makes me sick even to watch it take place in a MMO even if I don't participate. I am not alone, there are other Players like myself, but generally Developers are of the PvP type and they don't understand us either.

Online games do NOT have to have any PvP at all.... they are just always made that way, the biggest reason is that Players enjoy killing each other in a game where the Law doesn't show up to arrest them for the activity. I seriously have never heard a single argument that proves to me that we must kill in online games... it's just how they have been done. There is infact many other possibilities that Developers and Players have never considered much.

I STILL crave a sandbox MMO style virtual world. I have played Wurm and loved most of it, and I have derived a massive amount of enjoyment just from interacting... living.. tin the virtual world of Wurm. Terraforming to make a necessary road or a deed, cutting sprouts and planting trees and shrubs for hours, foraging/botanizing ad nausium, these are the features I love. I don't need a feature like PvP for my game enjoyment, living in the virtual world itself and making a livng are all I could ask for. However Wurm is dated, and has it's limits, and I am watching Xsyon to see if it is truely what I seek. Xsyon looks like the next generation, new and improved, yet it's own unique world. I will be watching Xsyon from a far, and if it appears that there will be a place for me, then I will be spending a lot of time there. If Xsyon looks too hostile for the likes of me then I will be waiting again for years for another sandbox MMO.

In the meantime, enjoy Xsyon, it does indeed look very good longterm, and that compliment is coming from a Player that hates PvP in all forms. I will not ask that Xsyon be changed for the sake of Players like myself. Just keep Xsyon on it's heading and may fair winds keep your ship moving swiftly along to full feature release. :)

Palo god

04-07-2010, 02:15 PM

Kyrmius wrote:

Largion wrote:

Why do you even want to play a game that have pvp options or even a online game?

Good question, a worthy question.

Almost all of the best Sandbox MMOs are PvP. So if you like/love PvP and also like/love experiencing a virtual reality in regards to altering the environment, REAL crafting, realistic virtual living, then you are all set. Especially it seems in Xsyon.

But what if you want to experience everything a sandbox MMO has to offer EXCEPT PvP/PK (to me there is absolutely no difference)?

Then you are screwed like me. I love sandbox MMOs except for the killing characters part. If you can't understand why I am this way or why I can't PvP, well even I am not completely sure myself, all I can say is it is the way I am. All I know is it makes me sick even to watch it take place in a MMO even if I don't participate. I am not alone, there are other Players like myself, but generally Developers are of the PvP type and they don't understand us either.

Online games do NOT have to have any PvP at all.... they are just always made that way, the biggest reason is that Players enjoy killing each other in a game where the Law doesn't show up to arrest them for the activity. I seriously have never heard a single argument that proves to me that we must kill in online games... it's just how they have been done. There is infact many other possibilities that Developers and Players have never considered much.

I STILL crave a sandbox MMO style virtual world. I have played Wurm and loved most of it, and Xsyon looks like the next generation, new and improved, yet it's own unique world. I will be watching Xsyon from a far, and if it appears that there will be a place for me, then I will be spending a lot of time there. If Xsyon looks too hostile for the likes of me then I will be waiting again for years for another sandbox MMO.

In the meantime, enjoy Xsyon, it does indeed look very good longterm, and that compliment is coming from a Player that hates PvP in all forms. I will not ask that Xsyon be changed for the sake of Players like myself. Just keep Xsyon on it's heading and may fair winds keep your ship moving swiftly along to full feature release. :)

You sound like a care bear. Why are you afraid of pixels dieing?

Kyrmius

04-07-2010, 02:21 PM

Palo god wrote:

Kyrmius wrote:

Largion wrote:

Why do you even want to play a game that have pvp options or even a online game?

Good question, a worthy question.

Almost all of the best Sandbox MMOs are PvP. So if you like/love PvP and also like/love experiencing a virtual reality in regards to altering the environment, REAL crafting, realistic virtual living, then you are all set. Especially it seems in Xsyon.

But what if you want to experience everything a sandbox MMO has to offer EXCEPT PvP/PK (to me there is absolutely no difference)?

Then you are screwed like me. I love sandbox MMOs except for the killing characters part. If you can't understand why I am this way or why I can't PvP, well even I am not completely sure myself, all I can say is it is the way I am. All I know is it makes me sick even to watch it take place in a MMO even if I don't participate. I am not alone, there are other Players like myself, but generally Developers are of the PvP type and they don't understand us either.

Online games do NOT have to have any PvP at all.... they are just always made that way, the biggest reason is that Players enjoy killing each other in a game where the Law doesn't show up to arrest them for the activity. I seriously have never heard a single argument that proves to me that we must kill in online games... it's just how they have been done. There is infact many other possibilities that Developers and Players have never considered much.

I STILL crave a sandbox MMO style virtual world. I have played Wurm and loved most of it, and Xsyon looks like the next generation, new and improved, yet it's own unique world. I will be watching Xsyon from a far, and if it appears that there will be a place for me, then I will be spending a lot of time there. If Xsyon looks too hostile for the likes of me then I will be waiting again for years for another sandbox MMO.

In the meantime, enjoy Xsyon, it does indeed look very good longterm, and that compliment is coming from a Player that hates PvP in all forms. I will not ask that Xsyon be changed for the sake of Players like myself. Just keep Xsyon on it's heading and may fair winds keep your ship moving swiftly along to full feature release. :)

You sound like a care bear. Why are you afraid of pixels dieing?

because even though a character is pixels, that blob of pixels represents a living breathing human creature. It's Energy, and in real life we are matter... which can be energy... frankly I don't see a real difference between the real world and the virtual.

As a result, I do not kill, nor do I steal, in any Online Game/ MMORPG/MMOG/ Virtual World.

I do not ask anyone to understand or agree, just this is who I am. If that makes me a carebear, then here's my sign.

I do not expect I will be playing Xsyon... even though it's world tempts me. I do wish you all the very best of good servers and lag free gametime.

Palo god

04-07-2010, 02:35 PM

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

Jadzia

04-07-2010, 02:47 PM

Kyrmius wrote:

Largion wrote:

Why do you even want to play a game that have pvp options or even a online game?

Good question, a worthy question.

Almost all of the best Sandbox MMOs are PvP. So if you like/love PvP and also like/love experiencing a virtual reality in regards to altering the environment, REAL crafting, realistic virtual living, then you are all set. Especially it seems in Xsyon.

But what if you want to experience everything a sandbox MMO has to offer EXCEPT PvP/PK (to me there is absolutely no difference)?

Then you are screwed like me. I love sandbox MMOs except for the killing characters part. If you can't understand why I am this way or why I can't PvP, well even I am not completely sure myself, all I can say is it is the way I am. All I know is it makes me sick even to watch it take place in a MMO even if I don't participate. I am not alone, there are other Players like myself, but generally Developers are of the PvP type and they don't understand us either.

Online games do NOT have to have any PvP at all.... they are just always made that way, the biggest reason is that Players enjoy killing each other in a game where the Law doesn't show up to arrest them for the activity. I seriously have never heard a single argument that proves to me that we must kill in online games... it's just how they have been done. There is infact many other possibilities that Developers and Players have never considered much.

I STILL crave a sandbox MMO style virtual world. I have played Wurm and loved most of it, and I have derived a massive amount of enjoyment just from interacting... living.. tin the virtual world of Wurm. Terraforming to make a necessary road or a deed, cutting sprouts and planting trees and shrubs for hours, foraging/botanizing ad nausium, these are the features I love. I don't need a feature like PvP for my game enjoyment, living in the virtual world itself and making a livng are all I could ask for. However Wurm is dated, and has it's limits, and I am watching Xsyon to see if it is truely what I seek. Xsyon looks like the next generation, new and improved, yet it's own unique world. I will be watching Xsyon from a far, and if it appears that there will be a place for me, then I will be spending a lot of time there. If Xsyon looks too hostile for the likes of me then I will be waiting again for years for another sandbox MMO.

In the meantime, enjoy Xsyon, it does indeed look very good longterm, and that compliment is coming from a Player that hates PvP in all forms. I will not ask that Xsyon be changed for the sake of Players like myself. Just keep Xsyon on it's heading and may fair winds keep your ship moving swiftly along to full feature release. :)

You worded my thoughts exactly.
Don't give up hope :) The developers of Xsyon do seem to care about the peaceful type of players and they stated many times that this game won't be a PvP focused one, and will never turn into a gankfest.
And have you ever tried ATITD ( A Tale in the Desert) ? In that game there is no combat at all, unfortunately the game mechanic is kind of grindy and boring for me.

Kyrmius

04-07-2010, 02:49 PM

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

Kitsume

04-07-2010, 02:53 PM

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

Don't worry about him, we have trolls here, just like you will find in about any open forum.

Palo god

04-07-2010, 03:23 PM

Kitsume wrote:

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

Don't worry about him, we have trolls here, just like you will find in about any open forum.

Someone needs to make a sand box version of hello kitty online for Kyrmius.

Ciik

04-07-2010, 06:48 PM

Palo god wrote:

Kitsume wrote:

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

Don't worry about him, we have trolls here, just like you will find in about any open forum.

Someone needs to make a sand box version of hello kitty online for Kyrmius.

Not necessarily as a post-apocalyptic pve sandboxy game already exists; Fallen Earth.

sisler86

04-07-2010, 07:54 PM

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

I wouldn't let some of these others players on here ruin your experience. Not all players in this community are focused on PvP. In fact, there are several tribes like Nomads of Xsyon or Hopi that are primarily peaceful tribes. If you do decide to give the game a try, you should check one of us out. NoX would love to have someone like you as an addition and you'd never have to PvP if you do not wish to.

Crunch

04-07-2010, 07:57 PM

sisler86 wrote:

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

I wouldn't let some of these others players on here ruin your experience. Not all players in this community are focused on PvP. In fact, there are several tribes like Nomads of Xsyon or Hopi that are primarily peaceful tribes. If you do decide to give the game a try, you should check one of us out. NoX would love to have someone like you as an addition and you'd never have to PvP if you do not wish to.

Yeah, but don't lie. All you carebear tribes will eventually fall to the power of my massive hammer of justice force x22

sisler86

04-07-2010, 08:15 PM

Crunch wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

I wouldn't let some of these others players on here ruin your experience. Not all players in this community are focused on PvP. In fact, there are several tribes like Nomads of Xsyon or Hopi that are primarily peaceful tribes. If you do decide to give the game a try, you should check one of us out. NoX would love to have someone like you as an addition and you'd never have to PvP if you do not wish to.

Yeah, but don't lie. All you carebear tribes will eventually fall to the power of my massive hammer of justice force x22

You really think that a tribe focused solely on crafting and and progression isn't going to be prepared for a fight?

If anything we'll all leave before we are taken over. ;)

Crunch

04-07-2010, 08:20 PM

sisler86 wrote:

Crunch wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

I wouldn't let some of these others players on here ruin your experience. Not all players in this community are focused on PvP. In fact, there are several tribes like Nomads of Xsyon or Hopi that are primarily peaceful tribes. If you do decide to give the game a try, you should check one of us out. NoX would love to have someone like you as an addition and you'd never have to PvP if you do not wish to.

Yeah, but don't lie. All you carebear tribes will eventually fall to the power of my massive hammer of justice force x22

You really think that a tribe focused solely on crafting and and progression isn't going to be prepared for a fight?

If anything we'll all leave before we are taken over. ;)

You mean you'll notice the downfall rising and say you just want to quit before it gets rough? yeah, it's been done,

sisler86

04-07-2010, 08:29 PM

Crunch wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Crunch wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

I wouldn't let some of these others players on here ruin your experience. Not all players in this community are focused on PvP. In fact, there are several tribes like Nomads of Xsyon or Hopi that are primarily peaceful tribes. If you do decide to give the game a try, you should check one of us out. NoX would love to have someone like you as an addition and you'd never have to PvP if you do not wish to.

Yeah, but don't lie. All you carebear tribes will eventually fall to the power of my massive hammer of justice force x22

You really think that a tribe focused solely on crafting and and progression isn't going to be prepared for a fight?

If anything we'll all leave before we are taken over. ;)

You mean you'll notice the downfall rising and say you just want to quit before it gets rough? yeah, it's been done,

lol, that's not quite what I meant, no.

1. PvP's and Non-PvP's do not play well
2. Non-PvP's get tired of being dragged into PvP and leave because they are not having fun.
3. PvP's get bored because the game feels empty without the Non-PvP's
4. Game fails

It's the old "yet another failed attempt at a sandbox" routine. :)

JCatano

04-07-2010, 08:43 PM

sisler86 wrote:

Crunch wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Crunch wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

I wouldn't let some of these others players on here ruin your experience. Not all players in this community are focused on PvP. In fact, there are several tribes like Nomads of Xsyon or Hopi that are primarily peaceful tribes. If you do decide to give the game a try, you should check one of us out. NoX would love to have someone like you as an addition and you'd never have to PvP if you do not wish to.

Yeah, but don't lie. All you carebear tribes will eventually fall to the power of my massive hammer of justice force x22

You really think that a tribe focused solely on crafting and and progression isn't going to be prepared for a fight?

If anything we'll all leave before we are taken over. ;)

You mean you'll notice the downfall rising and say you just want to quit before it gets rough? yeah, it's been done,

lol, that's not quite what I meant, no.

1. PvP's and Non-PvP's do not play well
2. Non-PvP's get tired of being dragged into PvP and leave because they are not having fun.
3. PvP's get bored because the game feels empty without the Non-PvP's
4. Game fails

It's the old "yet another failed attempt at a sandbox" routine. :)

EVE isn't having any problems.

sisler86

04-07-2010, 08:47 PM

JCatano wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Crunch wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Crunch wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Kyrmius wrote:

Palo god wrote:

Freaking hippies and their free love and pseudo wisdom.

lol

I will make sure I avoid the world of Xsyon.

I wouldn't let some of these others players on here ruin your experience. Not all players in this community are focused on PvP. In fact, there are several tribes like Nomads of Xsyon or Hopi that are primarily peaceful tribes. If you do decide to give the game a try, you should check one of us out. NoX would love to have someone like you as an addition and you'd never have to PvP if you do not wish to.

Yeah, but don't lie. All you carebear tribes will eventually fall to the power of my massive hammer of justice force x22

You really think that a tribe focused solely on crafting and and progression isn't going to be prepared for a fight?

If anything we'll all leave before we are taken over. ;)

You mean you'll notice the downfall rising and say you just want to quit before it gets rough? yeah, it's been done,

lol, that's not quite what I meant, no.

1. PvP's and Non-PvP's do not play well
2. Non-PvP's get tired of being dragged into PvP and leave because they are not having fun.
3. PvP's get bored because the game feels empty without the Non-PvP's
4. Game fails

It's the old "yet another failed attempt at a sandbox" routine. :)

EVE isn't having any problems.

True, but the EVE universe is huge. It's large enough for Non-PvP's to not feel bothered.

necoo

04-07-2010, 11:24 PM

let me remind you that this game will have an ever expanding world... it should be big enough to house the intentionally small amount of people that will be playing this game

sisler86

04-08-2010, 02:18 AM

necoo wrote:

let me remind you that this game will have an ever expanding world... it should be big enough to house the intentionally small amount of people that will be playing this game

But will it grow at a comfortable rate for the Non-PvP's to not feel bothered? It can grow all it wants, but if the Non-PvP's leave before then, then it's all for nothing. Hopefully the minuscule size of the starting community is diverse enough to not make this a PvP dominated game.

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 07:40 AM

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

let me remind you that this game will have an ever expanding world... it should be big enough to house the intentionally small amount of people that will be playing this game

But will it grow at a comfortable rate for the Non-PvP's to not feel bothered? It can grow all it wants, but if the Non-PvP's leave before then, then it's all for nothing. Hopefully the minuscule size of the starting community is diverse enough to not make this a PvP dominated game.

Seeing the techniques and features the developers are building into the game to avoid griefing and ganking, I'm not worried anymore. I think it won't be the non-PvPers who are gonna leave, more the pure PKers who won't find this game fun ( I mean the players who are not interested in any feature but Pking).

Reynolds

04-08-2010, 07:50 AM

Jadzia wrote:

Seeing the techniques and features the developers are building into the game to avoid griefing and ganking, I'm not worried anymore. I think it won't be the non-PvPers who are gonna leave, more the pure PKers who won't find this game fun ( I mean the players who are not interested in any feature but Pking).

If you mean the players who only want to target easy targets because they can't handle competitive pvp, you might well be right.

The sort of people who hang around newbie zones to grief new players will probably find this game not as fun as other games that encourage that playstyle.

I'm sure there will be more than enough pvp to satisfy serious pvpers.

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 08:03 AM

Reynolds wrote:

If you mean the players who only want to target easy targets because they can't handle competitive pvp, you might well be right.

The sort of people who hang around newbie zones to grief new players will probably find this game not as fun as other games that encourage that playstyle.

Exactly, I meant these type of players.

VowOfSilence

04-08-2010, 08:13 AM

JCatano wrote:

EVE isn't having any problems.

EVE has huge carebear safe zones...

Benedikt

04-08-2010, 08:23 AM

problem is, there is more or less no way to "deal" with pk's/gankers in game which doesnt have permadeath (or at least jail where you can throw captured pk for extensive period of time when he/she wouldnt be able to do anything at all)
i would deal with it this way:
there would be 3 types of players:
1. "white" - nonpvper
2. "blue" - pvper (switched on pvp flag, cd to turn it off would be 1hr)
3. "red" - pk (red flag would go off after 24 hr since last PK kill)

killing red player would be ok and anyone could do it (only if it would do white player, it would turn on his pvp flag)
killing blue player would be also ok, but if a white player would attack blue player, it would turn on pvp flag with 2hrs cd
killing white player would give you a red PK flag.

what is the catch? if you die as a red flagged PK, there would be 1% chance of permadeath

Largion

04-08-2010, 08:26 AM

Benedikt wrote:

problem is, there is more or less no way to "deal" with pk's/gankers in game which doesnt have permadeath (or at least jail where you can throw captured pk for extensive period of time when he/she wouldnt be able to do anything at all)
i would deal with ok this way:
there would be 3 types of players:
1. "white" - nonpvper
2. "blue" - pvper (switched on pvp flag, cd to turn it off would be 1hr)
3. "red" - pk (red flag would go off after 24 hr since last PK kill)

killing red player would be ok and anyone could do it (only if it would do white player, it would turn on his pvp flag)
killing blue player would be also ok, but if a white player would attack blue player, it would turn on pvp flag with 2hrs cd
killing white player would give you a red PK flag.

what is the catch? if you die as a red flagged PK, there would be 1% chance of permadeath

Permadeath is just stupid. Just make is so that reds are ffa without any downside and you get 12 hours per kill so if you kill 10 persons you get 120 hours of beeing red.

Benedikt

04-08-2010, 08:34 AM

Largion wrote:

Benedikt wrote:

problem is, there is more or less no way to "deal" with pk's/gankers in game which doesnt have permadeath (or at least jail where you can throw captured pk for extensive period of time when he/she wouldnt be able to do anything at all)
i would deal with ok this way:
there would be 3 types of players:
1. "white" - nonpvper
2. "blue" - pvper (switched on pvp flag, cd to turn it off would be 1hr)
3. "red" - pk (red flag would go off after 24 hr since last PK kill)

killing red player would be ok and anyone could do it (only if it would do white player, it would turn on his pvp flag)
killing blue player would be also ok, but if a white player would attack blue player, it would turn on pvp flag with 2hrs cd
killing white player would give you a red PK flag.

what is the catch? if you die as a red flagged PK, there would be 1% chance of permadeath

Permadeath is just stupid. Just make is so that reds are ffa without any downside and you get 12 hours per kill so if you kill 10 persons you get 120 hours of beeing red.

and? what would be the point? what would be the difference between being red and blue? why you would want NOT to be red all the time if you like pvp?

Largion

04-08-2010, 08:40 AM

Well if nothing else you know what sort of person it is.
I cant see anything good comming out of restrictig players in a sandbox game.

Benedikt

04-08-2010, 08:42 AM

Largion wrote:

Well if nothing else you know what sort of person it is.
I cant see anything good comming out of restrictig players in a sandbox game.

where do you see any restriction in it? it is just consequence of your actions.

Largion

04-08-2010, 08:46 AM

Benedikt wrote:

Largion wrote:

Well if nothing else you know what sort of person it is.
I cant see anything good comming out of restrictig players in a sandbox game.

where do you see any restriction in it? it is just consequence of your actions.

So why stop with 1%? lets make it 50%..

Reynolds

04-08-2010, 08:50 AM

Largion wrote:

So why stop with 1%? lets make it 50%..

Sounds fair to me, we have an agreement! 50% chance of permadeath for griefers!

Largion

04-08-2010, 08:52 AM

Reynolds wrote:

Largion wrote:

So why stop with 1%? lets make it 50%..

Sounds fair to me, we have an agreement! 50% chance of permadeath for griefers!

You see Benedikt. Now we would have no pvp and everyone could run around giving out flowers.

Benedikt

04-08-2010, 08:54 AM

Largion wrote:

Reynolds wrote:

Largion wrote:

So why stop with 1%? lets make it 50%..

Sounds fair to me, we have an agreement! 50% chance of permadeath for griefers!

You see Benedikt. Now we would have no pvp and everyone could run around giving out flowers.

what response did you expect for your (have to say it: stupid) post? :)
and no, we dont have no pvp - we still have blue vs blue pvp, just no pks

Benedikt

04-08-2010, 08:58 AM

truth is, pvpers always say how "if you are afraid to lose something, then dont play, carebear, boohooo" but in fact it is bullshit

why? because pvpers dont have to carry anything around besides what they are wearing - they dont need anything else to pvp. but crafters/harvesters need to carry/gather materials and tools with them

so you know what? lets level playerfield - lets do the fullloot this way: when you get pvp killed, winner can take anything you was WEARING and all your money, but nothing of what you are carrying.
ok?

Largion

04-08-2010, 09:02 AM

Benedikt wrote:

Largion wrote:

Reynolds wrote:

Largion wrote:

So why stop with 1%? lets make it 50%..

Sounds fair to me, we have an agreement! 50% chance of permadeath for griefers!

You see Benedikt. Now we would have no pvp and everyone could run around giving out flowers.

what response did you expect for your (have to say it: stupid) post? :)
and no, we dont have no pvp - we still have blue vs blue pvp, just no pks

So whats so stupid about that post? Its stupid because I add 49% when the end result would be the same?

And yes there would be tribe wars but the freedom for those that wants to play a certen style would be lost.

Benedikt

04-08-2010, 09:07 AM

Largion wrote:

So whats so stupid about that post? Its stupid because I add 49% when the end result would be the same?

And yes there would be tribe wars but the freedom for those that wants to play a certen style would be lost.

again i am asking: why? they can still play that style, they just have a (small) chance of really bad consequence
why? are you affraid of a loss?

Bruise187

04-08-2010, 09:11 AM

Is this going to have a bounty system in place? I like that if you get PKed and lose a lot or anything you can place a bounty/reward on the player. If he is gotten in the the next (however many PLAYED hours) you might get some of your loot back reguardless of if they have sold it or not or a % of your money back. they could put in a way to track a red player by saying he was last seen in this area at this time and so on. Think that might be as mch fun a doing pvp to me. The thrill of the hunt or hunted. try to avoid the posey that is after you. Can also go the rout of if you accept a bounty on someone and they kill you the bounty is wiped off. A lil risk for trying to hunt someone down and not let it be just a free kill for the bounty hunter.

Largion

04-08-2010, 09:14 AM

Benedikt wrote:

Largion wrote:

So whats so stupid about that post? Its stupid because I add 49% when the end result would be the same?

And yes there would be tribe wars but the freedom for those that wants to play a certen style would be lost.

again i am asking: why? they can still play that style, they just have a (small) chance of really bad consequence
why? are you affraid of a loss?

Well I will most likerly not even pvp alot outside the tribewars but I would not like to restict the ones that do.

After thinking about if for a min I realised that they could just create a tribe that delcare war on all outher tribes and they could kill everyone without anything happening.

Largion

04-08-2010, 09:16 AM

Bruise187 wrote:

Is this going to have a bounty system in place? I like that if you get PKed and lose a lot or anything you can place a bounty/reward on the player. If he is gotten in the the next (however many PLAYED hours) you might get some of your loot back reguardless of if they have sold it or not or a % of your money back. they could put in a way to track a red player by saying he was last seen in this area at this time and so on. Think that might be as mch fun a doing pvp to me. The thrill of the hunt or hunted. try to avoid the posey that is after you. Can also go the rout of if you accept a bounty on someone and they kill you the bounty is wiped off. A lil risk for trying to hunt someone down and not let it be just a free kill for the bounty hunter.

Things like this have been talked about in every game that have pvp but in the end the person would just ask a m8 to kill him and collect the bounty so now he killed you took your stuff and you payed him for it. ;)

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 09:34 AM

Benedikt wrote:

problem is, there is more or less no way to "deal" with pk's/gankers in game which doesnt have permadeath (or at least jail where you can throw captured pk for extensive period of time when he/she wouldnt be able to do anything at all)
i would deal with it this way:
there would be 3 types of players:
1. "white" - nonpvper
2. "blue" - pvper (switched on pvp flag, cd to turn it off would be 1hr)
3. "red" - pk (red flag would go off after 24 hr since last PK kill)

killing red player would be ok and anyone could do it (only if it would do white player, it would turn on his pvp flag)
killing blue player would be also ok, but if a white player would attack blue player, it would turn on pvp flag with 2hrs cd
killing white player would give you a red PK flag.

what is the catch? if you die as a red flagged PK, there would be 1% chance of permadeath

My personal opinion is that permadeath is really harsh. There is a combat mode implemented in the game...when someone wants to attack another player, he has to enter combat mode. In this mode his movement speed is way slower, so the target can easily run away. The developer stated that the goal of this feature is to allow those who want to run away to do so. Griefing/ganking/random PKing is kind of impossible this way.

Benedikt

04-08-2010, 09:42 AM

Jadzia wrote:

My personal opinion is that permadeath is really harsh. There is a combat mode implemented in the game...when someone wants to attack another player, he has to enter combat mode. In this mode his movement speed is way slower, so the target can easily run away. The developer stated that the goal of this feature is to allow those who want to run away to do so. Griefing/ganking/random PKing is kind of impossible this way.

well, that could work, as long as he will not be able to kill you with ranged weapons before you get out of reach :)

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 11:13 AM

Benedikt wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

My personal opinion is that permadeath is really harsh. There is a combat mode implemented in the game...when someone wants to attack another player, he has to enter combat mode. In this mode his movement speed is way slower, so the target can easily run away. The developer stated that the goal of this feature is to allow those who want to run away to do so. Griefing/ganking/random PKing is kind of impossible this way.

well, that could work, as long as he will not be able to kill you with ranged weapons before you get out of reach :)

You are right, I wonder how ranged weapon aiming works in the game...if they have to aim manually, it would be fun to run in zig-zag to avoid arrows :P And I wonder as well if we can hide behind trees or other landscape elements.

MrDDT

04-08-2010, 11:15 AM

Geez this thread never ends.

My ideas on what FFA PVP on how to work for most people.

PVP anywhere is the first rule.
You attack someone, you should be flagged unless they are already flagged.
If you are a murderer / Evil, you should get the reward of killing people anywhere and just be more Evil and whatever loots you get from that, having said that you should also have punishments put on you to limit who and why you attack someone.
Attacking someone just because they are there and no threat to you isnt normally going to be an option because the reward (loot, or fame whatever) isnt high. But if you see say a lone guy with pockets full of loot, attacking them with little other risks (like people attack you right then too) out weighs the consequences killing/attacking normal people. Its worth some stats/skill loss or bad karma to attack these people.

Now I believe that people should be able to get away MOST of the time (90+%) of the time if they see a fight coming and jet. If you get jumped and you jet right away you should have a good chance (60+%) to get away. If you stand there and fight for a bit and then see that you are out matched, you should have a very small chance (10% to 40% depending on your life when you started to jet).

This would allow people to craft and not be super worried of being killed, BUT still allow people to be killed, and controlling areas. A PKer could force you out of an area by forcing you to run. Now they didnt get to kill you but they now control that area. Also with good planning they might be able to trap and kill you better using numbers. But then again if you are a crafter all alone out there, your risking it yourself.

Ways to make it so this can happen.
1) Use the current system of movement for combat, to attack someone you move about 5 to 10x slower than someone not in combat. This allows people to get away.
2) Make it so every 2 or 3% life down, you move like 1% slower. This would mean if you were in a middle of a fight, and you were down to 1/3 life left you would move about 20% slower. This would allow you a small chance to get away, but not really all that good. Also this would allow if you were jumped and only hit once or twice before running you would run at near full speed. The attacker would have to go out and in combat mode making it very hard to catch you. Moving 20% slower would make you a much easier target for him, and any of his allies.
3) Make it so there are semi safe areas so that people can have a little protection like maybe a locked house, or use gates of your city, something that would slow there attack but still allow them to get you if you just try to camp there forever.
4) Also make it so some areas are more value than others, thus if you are a crafter/non combatant there you can get resources or mats better/faster/ or of higher value so you would want to fight or stay there and being forced to run would be a larger negative.

Using systems like this would allow for most parties to be happy I believe.

Crafters would tend to stay near back, and there towns, and have little fear of being killed IF they were active. If you are afk or not watching whats going on, you are likely to be a much higher risk and die. Also if you are far away from your back up / town you are at a higher risk.

Pkers(gankers,Evils, reds etc) will be happy because they can fight for things that matter, resources and your loots. They would have to use teamwork, or fore planning to get some of there skills, and other kills it would be with people that want to fight them.

I think that would be a win win.

Im not going into how combat is now, and balances it should have due to the fact that we dont know how its going to work because features are off. But these are basic ideas.

I want people not focus on things that are in the details but talk about overall how things should be.

Do you believe that non PVP people should be safe anywhere? Do you believe non PVP people should get away as they choose? Do you believe its ok to flee mid fight and get away most,some,all, none etc.
Please dont focus on how to fix it with snares, or Mez, or ranged weapons, or digging a trap etc. Talk about the overall until the public and devs can understand what overall is wanted. Then after they come back with how they want it done (which they already sorta did) we can debate how to get it done with snares, or ranged weapons etc.

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 11:48 AM

MrDDT wrote:

Im not going into how combat is now, and balances it should have due to the fact that we dont know how its going to work because features are off. But these are basic ideas.

I want people not focus on things that are in the details but talk about overall how things should be.

1.Do you believe that non PVP people should be safe anywhere?
2.Do you believe non PVP people should get away as they choose?
3.Do you believe its ok to flee mid fight and get away most,some,all, none etc.

Please dont focus on how to fix it with snares, or Mez, or ranged weapons, or digging a trap etc. Talk about the overall until the public and devs can understand what overall is wanted. Then after they come back with how they want it done (which they already sorta did) we can debate how to get it done with snares, or ranged weapons etc.

Since you asked to focus on these questions, I won't comment your whole post, though I do like some of your ideas, I don't like others, and some of them aren't clear for me :)

I numbered your questions to make it easier to reply.

1. I'm not sure what do you mean by this...safe zones ? The game has open PvP so noone can be safe everywhere...

2. Yes, I do believe they should be able to get away, with the chance of 90-95%. Its enough punishment to be forced away from their resources or activity, dieing just adds more to the irritating factor.

3. No, I think if someone decided to fight back, then he shouldn't be a coward later on :P If he decided to fight, he has to face the consequences.

sisler86

04-08-2010, 12:41 PM

Jadzia wrote:

MrDDT wrote:

Im not going into how combat is now, and balances it should have due to the fact that we dont know how its going to work because features are off. But these are basic ideas.

I want people not focus on things that are in the details but talk about overall how things should be.

1.Do you believe that non PVP people should be safe anywhere?
2.Do you believe non PVP people should get away as they choose?
3.Do you believe its ok to flee mid fight and get away most,some,all, none etc.

Please dont focus on how to fix it with snares, or Mez, or ranged weapons, or digging a trap etc. Talk about the overall until the public and devs can understand what overall is wanted. Then after they come back with how they want it done (which they already sorta did) we can debate how to get it done with snares, or ranged weapons etc.

Since you asked to focus on these questions, I won't comment your whole post, though I do like some of your ideas, I don't like others, and some of them aren't clear for me :)

I numbered your questions to make it easier to reply.

1. I'm not sure what do you mean by this...safe zones ? The game has open PvP so noone can be safe everywhere...

2. Yes, I do believe they should be able to get away, with the chance of 90-95%. Its enough punishment to be forced away from their resources or activity, dieing just adds more to the irritating factor.

3. No, I think if someone decided to fight back, then he shouldn't be a coward later on :P If he decided to fight, he has to face the consequences.

These are my personal beliefs:

1. I do not believe that Non-PvP players should be safe anywhere, however, I also believe that they should never be forced to PvP if they choose not to. My remedy for this is safe zones for those who absolutely do not like PvP.

2. This next one depends. IF there were safe zones then I think that Non-PvP's outside of those safe zones should not have any advantage to get away (it's fair and balanced). If, however, there are no safe zones then yes, I believe that a Non-PvP should have the escapist advantage.

3. Again, to be fair, if you start to fight then you should forfeit your advantage to get away.

MrDDT

04-08-2010, 01:38 PM

sisler86 wrote:

These are my personal beliefs:

1. I do not believe that Non-PvP players should be safe anywhere, however, I also believe that they should never be forced to PvP if they choose not to. My remedy for this is safe zones for those who absolutely do not like PvP.

Im not doubting your opinion but its not clear here, you are flip flopping.

You say no they shouldnt be safe anywhere, but then say there should be safe zones. Doesnt make since. Again no an opinion on your beliefs just confusion of them.

sisler86

04-08-2010, 01:55 PM

MrDDT wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

These are my personal beliefs:

1. I do not believe that Non-PvP players should be safe anywhere, however, I also believe that they should never be forced to PvP if they choose not to. My remedy for this is safe zones for those who absolutely do not like PvP.

Im not doubting your opinion but its not clear here, you are flip flopping.

You say no they shouldnt be safe anywhere, but then say there should be safe zones. Doesnt make since. Again no an opinion on your beliefs just confusion of them.

I think I just didn't explain myself well enough. I'll rephrase.

I personally feel that there should be safe zones for players that absolutely do not like to PvP, but still enjoy other aspects of this game. I do not think that any player should be forced to PvP against their will so the choice of not PvPing would be to go to a safe zone to play.

I do not, however, feel that the entire game should be made to protect non-PvP's which is why I think there should be safe zones.

Basically, I think there should be safe zones, not because I want them, but because there are other players out there that do not enjoy any type of PvP, but other than that, this is their dream game. It's a bit unfair to penalize either party because of their playstyle, so safe zones are the fair and balanced alternative. In my opinion of course.

aliksteel

04-08-2010, 02:14 PM

EDIT: Sorry for late post, I'm at work and had to step away for a little bit.

sisler86 wrote:

These are my personal beliefs:

1. I do not believe that Non-PvP players should be safe anywhere, however, I also believe that they should never be forced to PvP if they choose not to. My remedy for this is safe zones for those who absolutely do not like PvP.

MrDDT wrote:

Im not doubting your opinion but its not clear here, you are flip flopping.

You say no they shouldnt be safe anywhere, but then say there should be safe zones. Doesnt make since. Again no an opinion on your beliefs just confusion of them.

I am sure she can answer for herself, But what I think what she was saying was that she feels like there should be no safe aerea's for people that don't want anything to do with PVP(I would have to ask why buy the game then), But if there has to be something done for them. A safe zone for all non-PVP players is what would work..

I am not a big PvP, And I am sure that many of you will find me a fast kill, But I do love the feeling that any minute that someone could cut me down.
The only PVP I have really done is in EQ2 when they first added it to the game,I know most of you would not call the real PVP, But that's the only type I have played. And even at that, I only went out with large groups. So I think I will be staying close to home and hoping that my tribe will keeps me as safe as you can get in the game.

JCatano

04-08-2010, 02:21 PM

VowOfSilence wrote:

JCatano wrote:

EVE isn't having any problems.

EVE has huge carebear safe zones...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puiWUYxx2EE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X9wes4z3-E

That happens 24/7. Totally safe! :P

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 02:34 PM

I like safe zones (its the same as PvP zones just from the other point of view), but since the game has open-PvP it seems it wasn't the developers choice....if it was, the safe zones would need to be big enough to keep the non-PvPers entertained and not make them feel locked in.If we want to be fair to both sides then safe-PvP zones should be 50-50% of the whole map, but I'm sure noone would be happy with this version.

For me it seems so that the developers want to keep one open world without zones (except towns), but still they want to give the opportunity to non-PvP players to avoid forced PvPing. Virtus said that the removal or modification of the current combat mode is not an option, so I guess they are going into this direction, not safe zones.

pid73

04-08-2010, 02:40 PM

Beyond spatial protection (safe zones) there also can be "logical protections" that are not bound to any spatial place.

For example a safety that makes it impossible for much higher level players to attack, hurt or whatever another player who's much lower.

In wow terms: disallow pvp between players who have more than 10 levels of difference. Think about it: what chance does a level 40 have vs a level 50? And, on the other side, what does a level 50 gain from a level 40? The gear would be so low it's near to useless for the higher level.

Also, this would only apply between tribes not a war. Warring tribes could have no safety at all.

Deadman Munn

04-08-2010, 02:41 PM

Give new players a few safe zones that have the things needed to get them ready for the rest of the game.

Rest of the game should be FFA loot and open PvP. I know some don't like this, but for me it makes the game more exciting. Take WoW for example. Could open world PvP but there was no consequence, it was just griefing, so this was just people being pure f**ktards.

Take Darkfall. Open world PvP, but FFA loot. If someone killed you and took yourstuff you could go get them back and take their stuff.

Would like Xsyon to expand on that tho, ain't sure entirely how to do that tho. Maybe bounty boards to highlight people going ape on the PK'ing, thats for the devs to create.

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 02:58 PM

Deadman Munn wrote:

Give new players a few safe zones that have the things needed to get them ready for the rest of the game.

Rest of the game should be FFA loot and open PvP. I know some don't like this, but for me it makes the game more exciting. Take WoW for example. Could open world PvP but there was no consequence, it was just griefing, so this was just people being pure f**ktards.

Take Darkfall. Open world PvP, but FFA loot. If someone killed you and took yourstuff you could go get them back and take their stuff.

Would like Xsyon to expand on that tho, ain't sure entirely how to do that tho. Maybe bounty boards to highlight people going ape on the PK'ing, thats for the devs to create.

This game isn't a PvP focused one, though it has PvP to entertain the players who like it. The PvP feature should please the PvPers, while it shouldn't piss off the peaceful players. This goal can be achieved by a system which encourage competitive and challenging fights, while at the same time it gives the opportunity to avoid PvP for the ones who choose so.

Since Darkfall is absolutely focused on PvP, I think you shouldn't expect Xsyon to be anything like that, or even an expanded version of it.

Edit: if I remember correctly, bounty system is in the game, players can set a bounty price on evil players.

MrDDT

04-08-2010, 03:04 PM

Edit: if I remember correctly, bounty system is in the game, players can set a bounty price on evil players.

I think they can do it on any player, but Im not sure. Just makes them bad joo joo or something.

Ciik

04-08-2010, 03:17 PM

Deadman Munn wrote:

Give new players a few safe zones that have the things needed to get them ready for the rest of the game.

Rest of the game should be FFA loot and open PvP. I know some don't like this, but for me it makes the game more exciting. Take WoW for example. Could open world PvP but there was no consequence, it was just griefing, so this was just people being pure f**ktards.

Take Darkfall. Open world PvP, but FFA loot. If someone killed you and took yourstuff you could go get them back and take their stuff.

Would like Xsyon to expand on that tho, ain't sure entirely how to do that tho. Maybe bounty boards to highlight people going ape on the PK'ing, thats for the devs to create.

Yes, this game isn't PvE focused. Even though the prelude might have more restriction to open pvp, that will loosen-up as the game progresses, which is a pretty good system.

And there will be consequences to PvP, not realized in Darkfall. So yes, the game is player-centric, and you will should have ample opportunity to pvp and get alot of fun out of it.

So, again, even though safe-areas would be more prevalent in the starting map area (Prelude), the game shouldn't gravitate to an open gank-fest as Darkfall is, but ease players into more individual and tribal conflict as the game opens up.

sisler86

04-08-2010, 04:03 PM

This whole thread is a classic "chicken or the egg" scenario.

Ciik

04-08-2010, 04:11 PM

The chicken or the egg causality dilemma is commonly stated as "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

To ancient philosophers, the question about the first chicken or egg also evoked the questions of how life and the universe in general began.

Cultural references to the chicken and egg intend to point out the futility of identifying the first case of a circular cause and consequence. It could be considered that in this approach lies the most fundamental nature of the question. A literal answer is somewhat obvious, as opposed to the logical fallacy of the metaphorical view, which sets a metaphysical ground on the dilemma.

So, to understand its metaphorical meaning better, it could be reformulated as follows: "Which came first, X that can't come without Y, or Y that can't come without X?

pid73

04-08-2010, 04:39 PM

Ciik wrote:

The chicken or the egg causality dilemma is commonly stated as "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

To ancient philosophers, the question about the first chicken or egg also evoked the questions of how life and the universe in general began.

Cultural references to the chicken and egg intend to point out the futility of identifying the first case of a circular cause and consequence. It could be considered that in this approach lies the most fundamental nature of the question. A literal answer is somewhat obvious, as opposed to the logical fallacy of the metaphorical view, which sets a metaphysical ground on the dilemma.

So, to understand its metaphorical meaning better, it could be reformulated as follows: "Which came first, X that can't come without Y, or Y that can't come without X?

Excellent post.
I don't get the point, though.

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 04:41 PM

MrDDT

04-08-2010, 04:45 PM

No chickens in Xsyon.

Back to the topic.

Ikisis

04-08-2010, 04:52 PM

MrDDT wrote:

No chickens in Xsyon.

Back to the topic.
Lies

Draug wrote:

we even have chickens)))) http://www.xsyon.com/images/fbfiles/images/chicken_m.jpg

pid73

04-08-2010, 04:57 PM

We also need sheep!
This thread is now about sheeps.

Kitsume

04-08-2010, 05:22 PM

There are several different types of PvPers. Some might fit in more than one category. Here are a few examples.

There are the types who want meaningful fights, to challenge themselves and they seek out opponents that are at or above their skill/ability level.

There are the types that love epic battles and they seek out large scale engagements.

There are the types that want easy kills, and they usually seek out easy prey.

It is the easy kill PvPers, who are also the majority of the PK/Gankers/Griefers who give PvP a bad reputation. Unfortunately this is a natural instinct. In the wild, predators do not go after the leader of a herd, but they select the easiest target possible. Minimal effort for maximum gain. Unless these PvPers actively discouraged from preying on the weak, they will do so for their own ego boosting self-gratification.

I have been trying to think of a way to encourage PvPers to fight other PvPers without crippling PvP itself. We will still have the types who wish an easy kill, but if they receive no rewards for those kills, then they will hopefully become bored and leave, instead of them being the main force for driving away other players.

One way would be to have a merit based PvP ranking board. I'm not completely sure this is a good thing, even having a PvP leader board, but here is how I would set it up:

For each time you defeat someone, you receive 1 point if your opponent was of equal rank to you. For each rank your opponent was below you receive 25% less points. For each rank your opponent is above you you receive 10% more points. This would encourage PvPers to seek out other PvPers of equal or greater skill/rank than themselves.

But if you lose a fight, you lose 1 point, with a floor at zero. If you defeat someone with a score of zero, then you get nothing.

Everyone starts out with 1 point in their PvP ranking. The non-PvPers will quickly be at zero, while the PvPers will find fights with those who have close to their own ranks.

As a safeguard, I would say tribe members can not gain points from their other tribe members. And you can't get more points immediately from someone you just defeated for a certain amount of time. Or maybe you can only get 10% of the points for every minute since you defeated that person.

If the player is defeated by more than one person, then the points are divided among the victors based upon the total damage they dealt.

This way PvPers are encouraged to seek out other like minded players. Yes they still can defeat players that prefer not to PvP, but they will get no rewards for those kills. Consented training sparring may or may not award points, depending on the circumstances.

Having rankings based on kills alone, only encourages PvPers to seek out easy prey of new or non-PvP players. By using a point system this sets a reward matrix for Pvp players to engage other PvP players in meaningful fights.

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 05:51 PM

Interesting idea, and perhaps it could work.
I would add one more thing, because I've seen way too much PKer to kill newbies only for fun, and not for reputation or loot.

Perhaps this system would work better, if the PvPer lost points when he kills someone who has much lower PvP rank. He would gain points for kills around his rank and for the higher ones, and would loose points for killing lower ranks, the lower is the rank the more point is lost.

Kitsume

04-08-2010, 06:01 PM

Jadzia wrote:

Interesting idea, and perhaps it could work.
I would add one more thing, because I've seen way too much PKer to kill newbies only for fun, and not for reputation or loot.

Perhaps this system would work better, if the PvPer lost points when he kills someone who has much lower PvP rank. He would gain points for kills around his rank and for the higher ones, and would loose points for killing lower ranks, the lower is the rank the more point is lost.

I gave that some thought, but I was thinking about how that would shape out in larger scale engagements. Maybe if the low ranked person was at zero and that person did not initiate combat.

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 06:07 PM

Kitsume wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

Interesting idea, and perhaps it could work.
I would add one more thing, because I've seen way too much PKer to kill newbies only for fun, and not for reputation or loot.

Perhaps this system would work better, if the PvPer lost points when he kills someone who has much lower PvP rank. He would gain points for kills around his rank and for the higher ones, and would loose points for killing lower ranks, the lower is the rank the more point is lost.

I gave that some thought, but I was thinking about how that would shape out in larger scale engagements. Maybe if the low ranked person was at zero and that person did not initiate combat.

Lol your last words made me think what if the lower ranked person initiate the fight...I imagined PKers running in horror from newbies because they are scared to loose their rank :laugh:

Kitsume

04-08-2010, 06:12 PM

Jadzia wrote:

Lol your last words made me think what if the lower ranked person initiate the fight...I imagined PKers running in horror from newbies because they are scared to loose their rank :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That comment made my day!

MrDDT

04-08-2010, 06:14 PM

Ive said before that a ranking system is great. Just as long as its not like DAoC, Aion, WOW where you make it another grind to get items, or powers.

Make it so its bragging rights only. Nothing more.

Kitsume

04-08-2010, 06:18 PM

MrDDT wrote:

Ive said before that a ranking system is great. Just as long as its not like DAoC, Aion, WOW where you make it another grind to get items, or powers.

Make it so its bragging rights only. Nothing more.

I agree, only a list. No items or benefits. There should be no designated PvP gear.

Jadzia

04-08-2010, 06:24 PM

MrDDT wrote:

Ive said before that a ranking system is great. Just as long as its not like DAoC, Aion, WOW where you make it another grind to get items, or powers.

Make it so its bragging rights only. Nothing more.

Exactly. Only rank, in a way that is visible in the game...so no need to check websites to know your rank.

kiwibird

04-08-2010, 07:10 PM

"Bragging rights" is another power grind in and of itself. It will simply be another "I beat your arse to a pulp".

But then again, I don't care about PvP, so leader board or not, it wont rank me as anything important.

Hopefully things of a PvE nature can be ranked too, or at least 'entombed forever more'. Jadzia found the cure for boxxie-ickius.

Ciik

04-08-2010, 07:21 PM

pid73 wrote:

We also need sheep!
This thread is now about sheeps.

And we'll need a restraining order and minimum kept distance for DDT :) j/k :)

Ciik

04-08-2010, 07:23 PM

MrDDT wrote:

Ive said before that a ranking system is great. Just as long as its not like DAoC, Aion, WOW where you make it another grind to get items, or powers.

Make it so its bragging rights only. Nothing more.

Yea. Looting the foe should be bragging rights enough without some cash-in points.

kiwibird

04-09-2010, 12:46 AM

I could say the same to you, and your comrade above you. http://www.xsyon.com/images/fbfiles/avatars/1031.jpg

kiwibird

04-09-2010, 12:59 AM

prokop15 wrote:

60 pages of shakin' in your boots at virtual murders is different than 2 concise posts though matey.Sorry, who's shaking?

kiwibird

04-09-2010, 01:37 AM

I'm not shaking, nor do jump up and down if I get drawn into PvP, I just rather not have to deal with it.

I don't get sick by PvP, I just think its bad practise to simply do that. Then again its bad practice to say "mines bigger than yours". At the end of the day, I will likely create a second character to simply have PvP as a option, but I rather ensure PKing as that quote was taken from was addressing.

[edit=1]
Actually I find it comical, CBs as you insult people with, don't shake and quiver as much as you guys do when we call out "PVE Server please." For some reason you need us... yet we can live without you ;)

HamsterofDoom

04-09-2010, 05:48 AM

I'm not a fan of any kind of ranking system. If the game isn't compelling enough to want to pvp for more territory, or to clear cut a rival tribe's forest, then the developers have failed. See DDT's post for examples of how point based ranking ends up.

However, I really liked UO's reputation and title system at least early on Pre-Ren. When you saw a "The Dread Lord [insert name}" it was actually pretty scary and awe inspiring. And well, getting the title felt pretty nice too.

Jadzia

04-09-2010, 08:57 AM

HamsterofDoom wrote:

I'm not a fan of any kind of ranking system. If the game isn't compelling enough to want to pvp for more territory, or to clear cut a rival tribe's forest, then the developers have failed. See DDT's post for examples of how point based ranking ends up.

However, I really liked UO's reputation and title system at least early on Pre-Ren. When you saw a "The Dread Lord [insert name}" it was actually pretty scary and awe inspiring. And well, getting the title felt pretty nice too.

The goal of Kitsume's original idea wasn't to encourage PvP in general (no need for that, many players love it anyway) but to encourage PvPers to look for a challenging and balanced fight instead of picking on the weak ones.

And this being achieved by points or titles really doesn't make any difference.

Bruise187

04-09-2010, 11:48 AM

[b]kiwibird wrote]
[quote]
What I care about is the ability to sanction such players. Be it place you in a jail system run by players, where you have to pay me back 1.5x the amount you stole, or a month (game time) of hard labour per person you are convicted of killing. Or more easier ways to inflict a punishment on you. I don't care if that means your game sucks, you did something that you know is wrong, I don't care if its in a game or not; I paid for this game, why should I suffer if you choose to play this style of character. You choose the choices to do whatever, live with it.

At the end of the day, my 60 dollars for an initial fee and an 25 dollar on-going fee is just as good as yours. (Dollars round-up to closet 5 in local currency.)
--------------------------
Why would you care about getting some of your money or xp back...your dead. In this lawless world you have no rights yet. I'm sure that some of our settler brothers and sisters for times past were raped and pillaged and no one cared. Casue if there is no witness there is no crime, dead men tell no tells I think it goes. So when I kill your toon and no one is around to see it, why should I have penalty? there was no crime other than you crying in local or general chat about how you were just owned like cattle lol.

On the bounty system, someone said that it wouldn't work because they would just have a friend collect on it. Why not have the bounty system by tribe or alignment maybe. the safest being the one where you use your tribe to collect on it.

Brutix

04-09-2010, 02:17 PM

oh god please no pvp ranking system in this game. I hate all ranking systems and all they do is benefit the no life losers. PVP should have a real in-game purpose.

Kitsume

04-09-2010, 02:31 PM

Brutix wrote:

oh god please no pvp ranking system in this game. I hate all ranking systems and all they do is benefit the no life losers. PVP should have a real in-game purpose.

I would be interested in hearing your ideas for encouraging PvPers to fight with other PvPers, instead of going after the easy kill newbies and gatherers/crafters.

sisler86

04-09-2010, 02:32 PM

Bruise187 wrote:

[b]kiwibird wrote]
[quote]
What I care about is the ability to sanction such players. Be it place you in a jail system run by players, where you have to pay me back 1.5x the amount you stole, or a month (game time) of hard labour per person you are convicted of killing. Or more easier ways to inflict a punishment on you. I don't care if that means your game sucks, you did something that you know is wrong, I don't care if its in a game or not; I paid for this game, why should I suffer if you choose to play this style of character. You choose the choices to do whatever, live with it.

At the end of the day, my 60 dollars for an initial fee and an 25 dollar on-going fee is just as good as yours. (Dollars round-up to closet 5 in local currency.)
--------------------------
Why would you care about getting some of your money or xp back...your dead. In this lawless world you have no rights yet. I'm sure that some of our settler brothers and sisters for times past were raped and pillaged and no one cared. Casue if there is no witness there is no crime, dead men tell no tells I think it goes. So when I kill your toon and no one is around to see it, why should I have penalty? there was no crime other than you crying in local or general chat about how you were just owned like cattle lol.

On the bounty system, someone said that it wouldn't work because they would just have a friend collect on it. Why not have the bounty system by tribe or alignment maybe. the safest being the one where you use your tribe to collect on it.

Fist of all, the devs said that they had a system in place to prevent players from exploiting the bounty system like that, but wouldn't give any details on it so just take that for what you will.

Second. Every paying customer has the right to play the game how they choose, especially since this is a sandbox game. If Non-Pvp's start to feel like this game is just turning into a giant arena then they will leave because it's not worth the money to play a game that has been ruined for you. In order for this game to succeed, there has to be that balance and it cannot shift. If it shifts in favor of either side then the game will ultimately fail because the game world and community will slowly deplete.

I think once all the features get turned on and the game launches, both sides are going to be a bit disappointed in the mechanics, and the one's who enjoy both play styles will be happy. This game is not a PvP game, nor is it a "better Darkfall," but it's not WoW or LOTRO either.

Also, I'm not big on the ranking system, but I wouldn't mind a system that earn's you titles for different PvP feats. You could extend the title system to PvE players too for doing certain things. A HoF wouldn't be too bad though for like picking up the highest bounties or whatever.

Palo god

04-09-2010, 03:33 PM

VowOfSilence

04-09-2010, 03:34 PM

Palo god

04-09-2010, 03:43 PM

VowOfSilence wrote:

Kitsume wrote:

Brutix wrote:

oh god please no pvp ranking system in this game. I hate all ranking systems and all they do is benefit the no life losers. PVP should have a real in-game purpose.

I would be interested in hearing your ideas for encouraging PvPers to fight with other PvPers, instead of going after the easy kill newbies and gatherers/crafters.

I'd suggest a karma system, stat loss when killed depends on how much bad karma you have. Max bad karma takes quite a while to reach, but means 100% skill loss.

Bad karma is gained for ganking, looting items, defeating players of lower level and combat skills, if there is no war declaration, and so on. It should also depend on the karma of the victim and the owner of the territory.

Bad karma gained is exponential, so simply looting some items would be a minimal gain if nothing else factors in.

No one will go red if it means 100% skill loss, and thus will be a pointless mechanic. A game with no bad guys is no fun. If you gank players people will just put bounties on your head in game.

Brutix

04-09-2010, 04:29 PM

Kitsume wrote:

Brutix wrote:

oh god please no pvp ranking system in this game. I hate all ranking systems and all they do is benefit the no life losers. PVP should have a real in-game purpose.

I would be interested in hearing your ideas for encouraging PvPers to fight with other PvPers, instead of going after the easy kill newbies and gatherers/crafters.Wow someone wants to hear my opinion, thats a first:) All in all I don't have too many ideas at the moment but give me some time, i'll start brainstorming now.

Personally I think there should be nothing in place to stop or hinder pvpers from killing newbs/crafters, however having pvpers mass killing newbs/crafters is a major issue and something does need to be done.

One idea I just had is this. I would like to see a system where if someone kills you, it will be much, much easier to track them down,get revenge and grieve the bastards back. Maybe if someone kills someone else who has low stats or never went into combat mode when they are killed, that the person and all members of the victims tribe are notified instantly about the victims death and able to see the location of the griefer on their map at all times, in real time. The griefer can't hide and his location will always be known to all in the victims tribe until the victim himself kills the griefer. This could give the victim and his tribe a very powerful tool to grief back the grievers, because the victim doesn't have to go get revenge right away, and give his friends plenty of time to kill and re-kill the griefer. Also if a solo newbie gets killed maybe everyone in the victims faction get to see the grievers location in real-time, all the time on their map.

Well I am going to think about this subject more, the idea I just posted just came from the top of my head and could be retarded for all I know, I haven't thought about all the nuances yet. The point is that maybe their should be nothing to stop griefers but somethign in-game to make getting revenge much easier than what we seen in mmo's so far.

VowOfSilence

04-09-2010, 04:34 PM

Palo god wrote:

VowOfSilence wrote:
I'd suggest a karma system, stat loss when killed depends on how much bad karma you have. Max bad karma takes quite a while to reach, but means 100% skill loss.

Bad karma is gained for ganking, looting items, defeating players of lower level and combat skills, if there is no war declaration, and so on. It should also depend on the karma of the victim and the owner of the territory.

Bad karma gained is exponential, so simply looting some items would be a minimal gain if nothing else factors in.

No one will go red if it means 100% skill loss, and thus will be a pointless mechanic. A game with no bad guys is no fun. If you gank players people will just put bounties on your head in game.

Well, no one will kill and loot newbies all day long, and that's the whole point. Unless the killer is skilled enough to get away with it in the long run - in that case, we'll have a "Jack the Ripper"-legend now and then. But most thieves/murderers will plan their attacks instead to make sure that their coup actually pays off.

edit: bad karma would decrease over time of course.

sisler86

04-09-2010, 04:42 PM

VowOfSilence wrote:

Palo god wrote:

VowOfSilence wrote:
I'd suggest a karma system, stat loss when killed depends on how much bad karma you have. Max bad karma takes quite a while to reach, but means 100% skill loss.

Bad karma is gained for ganking, looting items, defeating players of lower level and combat skills, if there is no war declaration, and so on. It should also depend on the karma of the victim and the owner of the territory.

Bad karma gained is exponential, so simply looting some items would be a minimal gain if nothing else factors in.

No one will go red if it means 100% skill loss, and thus will be a pointless mechanic. A game with no bad guys is no fun. If you gank players people will just put bounties on your head in game.

Well, no one will kill and loot newbies all day long, and that's the whole point. Unless the killer is skilled enough to get away with it in the long run - in that case, we'll have a "Jack the Ripper"-legend now and then. But most thieves/murderers will plan their attacks instead to make sure that their coup actually pays off.

Maybe there could be a system in place that prevents you from PvP'ng until you reach a certain level. That would protect the new players. I'm sure someone will have some decent counter arguments for that, but it's just something that kinda popped into my head.

Seizon

04-09-2010, 05:41 PM

Excuse my newbishness;
In my own opinion,
Open PvP encourages teamwork and evokes a sense of danger. For instance; crafters will obviously be targets because of the relationship between the two; the pvper produces nothing but requires something, and has developed a means to obtain it, while the crafter produces things but (usually) lacks the means to properly defend it. Because of this, warriors aligned to an organization will find they have an important job; protect the crafters.
Town guard KoS list (Karma system featured in the game could also help accomplish town security should a PvPer's karma drop too low, causing NPCs to attack.) and/or other mechanicisms would of course be welcome in aiding the defense against PvPers, and ways to protect items, such as locked containers and/or 'bound' important items, so to speak, which could last for one or two deaths before requiring a new 'bind'.

Restricting a sandbox game reduces player enjoyment, imo, and while dying may be frustrating, a game without death is hard to pull off, especially in such a player oriented game. (ATITD is an obvious exception.) Even restricted PK/only animal deaths could be less preferable compare to open PvP.
on another note;
Automatic game punishment of pvpers would also make the mechanic a much less enjoyable one, whereas player-imposed punishments assisted by game mechanics can be quite satisfying and add an element of danger to the pvper as well.

Hope I could at least make one point there. ;)

Jhael

04-09-2010, 05:42 PM

sisler86 wrote:

VowOfSilence wrote:

Palo god wrote:

VowOfSilence wrote:
I'd suggest a karma system, stat loss when killed depends on how much bad karma you have. Max bad karma takes quite a while to reach, but means 100% skill loss.

Bad karma is gained for ganking, looting items, defeating players of lower level and combat skills, if there is no war declaration, and so on. It should also depend on the karma of the victim and the owner of the territory.

Bad karma gained is exponential, so simply looting some items would be a minimal gain if nothing else factors in.

No one will go red if it means 100% skill loss, and thus will be a pointless mechanic. A game with no bad guys is no fun. If you gank players people will just put bounties on your head in game.

Well, no one will kill and loot newbies all day long, and that's the whole point. Unless the killer is skilled enough to get away with it in the long run - in that case, we'll have a "Jack the Ripper"-legend now and then. But most thieves/murderers will plan their attacks instead to make sure that their coup actually pays off.

Maybe there could be a system in place that prevents you from PvP'ng until you reach a certain level. That would protect the new players. I'm sure someone will have some decent counter arguments for that, but it's just something that kinda popped into my head.I'm sorry, the levels-the-what-now? :huh:
*cough* No counterargument required... :silly:
EDIT: But lets counter anyway.
Minimum "Level" requirements in a sandbox type of play? Are you out of your mind? That's everything that term goes against...

sisler86

04-09-2010, 05:49 PM

Seizon

04-09-2010, 06:20 PM

sisler86 wrote:

Seizon wrote:

Excuse my newbishness;
In my own opinion,
Open PvP encourages teamwork and evokes a sense of danger. For instance; crafters will obviously be targets because of the relationship between the two; the pvper produces nothing but requires something, and has developed a means to obtain it, while the crafter produces things but (usually) lacks the means to properly defend it. Because of this, warriors aligned to an organization will find they have an important job; protect the crafters.

That's using the assumption that everyone that plays MMO's does so for the social aspect of them. Some people aren't social butterflies like others and would prefer to play on their own and not get too involved with their tribe.
It seems that this game encourages cooperation, however I'm sure lone-wolfing it would be preferable to some players.
Their life would of course be harder, because doing it all with one person and scratching out much more then basic requirements for surviving isn't too easy. (especially with skill degrade!)
PKers wouldn't have much of a reason to target these people unless they're doing exceptionally well, in that case, it'd be in the solo player's best interst to have some good fighting equipment.

Kitsume

04-09-2010, 06:45 PM

I don't think limiting PvP from a certain group will solve any problems, it usually causes more problems that it is worth with players abusing that immunity.

What I am looking for is open-PvP but with ways to encourage the PvPers to fight other PvPers. Sure there will be some players no matter what the incentive will go for the easy kills, but if you make those type of kills less attractive, then some of them might try more challenging targets.

I've never said eliminate PvP for any group, but I do strongly dislike those players that seek out to Grief/Gank other players who are weaker than themselves for the easy kill with little to no risk to themselves. Some people choose to make a positive impact on the world, some choose to make a negative impact. I think these choices should reflect on how the world treats them in the long scheme of things.

Jadzia

04-09-2010, 06:47 PM

Seizon wrote:

Excuse my newbishness;
In my own opinion,
Open PvP encourages teamwork and evokes a sense of danger. For instance; crafters will obviously be targets because of the relationship between the two; the pvper produces nothing but requires something, and has developed a means to obtain it, while the crafter produces things but (usually) lacks the means to properly defend it. Because of this, warriors aligned to an organization will find they have an important job; protect the crafters.
Town guard KoS list (Karma system featured in the game could also help accomplish town security should a PvPer's karma drop too low, causing NPCs to attack.) and/or other mechanicisms would of course be welcome in aiding the defense against PvPers, and ways to protect items, such as locked containers and/or 'bound' important items, so to speak, which could last for one or two deaths before requiring a new 'bind'.

Restricting a sandbox game reduces player enjoyment, imo, and while dying may be frustrating, a game without death is hard to pull off, especially in such a player oriented game. (ATITD is an obvious exception.) Even restricted PK/only animal deaths could be less preferable compare to open PvP.
on another note;
Automatic game punishment of pvpers would also make the mechanic a much less enjoyable one, whereas player-imposed punishments assisted by game mechanics can be quite satisfying and add an element of danger to the pvper as well.

Hope I could at least make one point there. ;)

I think your ideas could work well in a combat oriented game, but not in Xsyon. In this game we are after an apocalypse, the word is destroyed and we have to rebuild it...now imagine how much resource is needed for that :) Noone can expect players to stand beside their gathering-crafting tribemate for hours to bodyguard him, they would be bored out of their head.
So the risk of being Pked does encourage teamwork, but not in a very good way...it can be encouraged in much better way, where all of the players can take part in the current activity (like building a huge thing which requires more players).

The are no NPCs in Xsyon right now, and as far as I know there won't be any during the Prelude, so no town guards.

Binding items won't help crafters too much, when they gather-craft-build they don't use armor or weapon, and resources cannot be binded. Apart of that, binding system in a sandbox game...I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like a sandbox type of feature :)

Cochran1

04-09-2010, 08:11 PM

Jadzia wrote:

Seizon wrote:

Excuse my newbishness;
In my own opinion,
Open PvP encourages teamwork and evokes a sense of danger. For instance; crafters will obviously be targets because of the relationship between the two; the pvper produces nothing but requires something, and has developed a means to obtain it, while the crafter produces things but (usually) lacks the means to properly defend it. Because of this, warriors aligned to an organization will find they have an important job; protect the crafters.
Town guard KoS list (Karma system featured in the game could also help accomplish town security should a PvPer's karma drop too low, causing NPCs to attack.) and/or other mechanicisms would of course be welcome in aiding the defense against PvPers, and ways to protect items, such as locked containers and/or 'bound' important items, so to speak, which could last for one or two deaths before requiring a new 'bind'.

Restricting a sandbox game reduces player enjoyment, imo, and while dying may be frustrating, a game without death is hard to pull off, especially in such a player oriented game. (ATITD is an obvious exception.) Even restricted PK/only animal deaths could be less preferable compare to open PvP.
on another note;
Automatic game punishment of pvpers would also make the mechanic a much less enjoyable one, whereas player-imposed punishments assisted by game mechanics can be quite satisfying and add an element of danger to the pvper as well.

Hope I could at least make one point there. ;)

I think your ideas could work well in a combat oriented game, but not in Xsyon. In this game we are after an apocalypse, the word is destroyed and we have to rebuild it...now imagine how much resource is needed for that :) Noone can expect players to stand beside their gathering-crafting tribemate for hours to bodyguard him, they would be bored out of their head.
So the risk of being Pked does encourage teamwork, but not in a very good way...it can be encouraged in much better way, where all of the players can take part in the current activity (like building a huge thing which requires more players).

The are no NPCs in Xsyon right now, and as far as I know there won't be any during the Prelude, so no town guards.

Binding items won't help crafters too much, when they gather-craft-build they don't use armor or weapon, and resources cannot be binded. Apart of that, binding system in a sandbox game...I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like a sandbox type of feature :)

A system like group harvesting/crafting would make it a bit easier, saftey in numbers and a more profitable yield. Besides who ever heard of a mining or a deforestation project being run by a single person?

r0ss0

04-09-2010, 08:38 PM

Eve is the most ruthless place to be alone , or in any security sector, Your not forced into a corp, And yes you can solo if you wish, But the game is slow, And in my eyes not nearly as fun,

What is more fun sitting on vent with around 30 of you mining an asteroid belt , With cargo runners , miners , protectors and scouts all working together,

Those that dislike pvp dont neccesarily have to ever fight , Just find the right tribe , Get involved.

And those that dont want to be forced into a tribe , Regardless of any mmo , i dont think i have ever seen many players unguilded or not with a corp etc,

This is what mmos are about

sisler86

04-09-2010, 08:41 PM

r0ss0 wrote:

Eve is the most ruthless place to be alone , or in any security sector, Your not forced into a corp, And yes you can solo if you wish, But the game is slow, And in my eyes not nearly as fun,

What is more fun sitting on vent with around 30 of you mining an asteroid belt , With cargo runners , miners , protectors and scouts all working together,

Those that dislike pvp dont neccesarily have to ever fight , Just find the right tribe , Get involved.

And those that dont want to be forced into a tribe , Regardless of any mmo , i dont think i have ever seen many players unguilded or not with a corp etc,

This is what mmos are about

Very rarely in any MMO do I ever join guilds or clans. I almost always stick to myself and solo everything, but I did manage to find some friends in this community and helped start our own tribe. I'm not big on getting too involved with other players in gaming communities, but I see myself making an exception with Xsyon.

Jhael

04-10-2010, 05:17 AM

Well, a ranking system would be pretty simple to do and it wouldn't/shouldn't be forced on any other game mechanics. People are vain enough for just that to work...

Just make players who are new or have not killed anyone not be worth anything in this ranking system. The more experienced fighter you kill the more it's worth in terms of points in the ranking system.

That way there will be more fighting among the fighters. Although it wouldn't necessarily decrease the killing of the weak. It merely suggests other targets and only suggests more glorious paths. No forcing (so we don't spit on the sandbox theme) and no prizes or something that would make the choice not a choice.

HamsterofDoom

04-11-2010, 01:50 AM

My problem with rankings and achievements as a form of social engineering are...

1.It doesn't work. People will find a way to exploit it, or go nuts to max it out, then they will have nothing left to do... except grief newbies. Not to mention it has ABSOLUTELY no effect on me at all as a murderer. Consider this... given the choice of "behaving" and grinding out points to get some achievement or title that people will have to dig for.. OR making a name for myself in the game world through my actions.... I'd rather bathe in the blood of newbies and jump rope with their entrails just to be the most hated by PEOPLE... not a game mechanic.

2. It is a horrible mechanic. MMO's are designed to hide the grind... ranking/achievements just spits it in your face. Instead of implementing a system that has no real value.. why not make consensual pvp intrinsically desirable? I could gank newbies for 10 logs all day OR fight with my brethren to raze and pillage a town.....

Instead of funneling game play in a rather boring and non creative direction you COULD implement something like....

New skills for a NON-combat character... (I'll use UO as my example). Introduce skills like tracking, Forensics, recon...etc etc. So when you get murdered you call a PLAYER.. (see it's creating game play!) This PLAYER checks out your corpse and finds out who did it. From that point there is a limited amount of time for the PLAYER to find the murderer... perhaps the golden 48 hours would work. Then he/she uses his skills or recon and tracking to figure out where the criminal is hiding. From there, he/she could call on a group of anti-pk's to clean up. The bounty board could be used in conjunction with a system such as mine, especially for murderers that escaped justice.

If the criminal chooses not to log in that character for the duration the trail is lost.

If a system like mine were implemented it would do a few things...

1. Create a whole new marketable skill and style of game play in the "detective".

2.Give murderers a very real danger other than having a group of anti-pk's accidentally find you.

3.Allow victims to have some potential personal retribution, maybe even recover some lost goods.

4.Provide the devs with a non arbitrary method of social engineering to provide a balance of risk vs. reward for victims and criminals alike.

The problem with ALL of the PVP vs PVE arguments is that they all DETRACT from emergent game play. Whether it's creation of safe zones, immune status, or conversely... heavy handed punishments that prohibit a murderer from playing in a fun a meanful manner. ie. Having to regrind stats, afk macroing death counts off, or jailing them preventing ANY play. This problem not exclusive to Xsyon... it's existed for over a decade. Until developer spends time to create "meaningful" mechanics that are FUN for EVERYONE. We will all continue to walk this proverbial Moebius strip of "carebear" vs. "hardcore".\\

Edit- TLDR...... Give us tools to make a murderer's life miserable... make the hunter the hunted.

sisler86

04-11-2010, 04:57 AM

HamsterofDoom wrote:

My problem with rankings and achievements as a form of social engineering are...

1.It doesn't work. People will find a way to exploit it, or go nuts to max it out, then they will have nothing left to do... except grief newbies. Not to mention it has ABSOLUTELY no effect on me at all as a murderer. Consider this... given the choice of "behaving" and grinding out points to get some achievement or title that people will have to dig for.. OR making a name for myself in the game world through my actions.... I'd rather bathe in the blood of newbies and jump rope with their entrails just to be the most hated by PEOPLE... not a game mechanic.

2. It is a horrible mechanic. MMO's are designed to hide the grind... ranking/achievements just spits it in your face. Instead of implementing a system that has no real value.. why not make consensual pvp intrinsically desirable? I could gank newbies for 10 logs all day OR fight with my brethren to raze and pillage a town.....

Instead of funneling game play in a rather boring and non creative direction you COULD implement something like....

New skills for a NON-combat character... (I'll use UO as my example). Introduce skills like tracking, Forensics, recon...etc etc. So when you get murdered you call a PLAYER.. (see it's creating game play!) This PLAYER checks out your corpse and finds out who did it. From that point there is a limited amount of time for the PLAYER to find the murderer... perhaps the golden 48 hours would work. Then he/she uses his skills or recon and tracking to figure out where the criminal is hiding. From there, he/she could call on a group of anti-pk's to clean up. The bounty board could be used in conjunction with a system such as mine, especially for murderers that escaped justice.

If the criminal chooses not to log in that character for the duration the trail is lost.

If a system like mine were implemented it would do a few things...

1. Create a whole new marketable skill and style of game play in the "detective".

2.Give murderers a very real danger other than having a group of anti-pk's accidentally find you.

3.Allow victims to have some potential personal retribution, maybe even recover some lost goods.

4.Provide the devs with a non arbitrary method of social engineering to provide a balance of risk vs. reward for victims and criminals alike.

The problem with ALL of the PVP vs PVE arguments is that they all DETRACT from emergent game play. Whether it's creation of safe zones, immune status, or conversely... heavy handed punishments that prohibit a murderer from playing in a fun a meanful manner. ie. Having to regrind stats, afk macroing death counts off, or jailing them preventing ANY play. This problem not exclusive to Xsyon... it's existed for over a decade. Until developer spends time to create "meaningful" mechanics that are FUN for EVERYONE. We will all continue to walk this proverbial Moebius strip of "carebear" vs. "hardcore".\\

Edit- TLDR...... Give us tools to make a murderer's life miserable... make the hunter the hunted.

The word "hardcore" is a hardly appropriate stereotype for PvPers. I've met plenty of PvE players and RP's that I would consider hardcore as well.

Bruise187

04-11-2010, 07:21 AM

He had that huge thread and all you got out of it was pvpers are hardcore and pveers aren't lol.

I liked the his thoughts on how to handle pvp. Was a first that I have seen that idea come up.

Seizon

04-11-2010, 08:58 AM

Jadzia wrote:

Seizon wrote:

Excuse my newbishness;
In my own opinion,
Open PvP encourages teamwork and evokes a sense of danger. For instance; crafters will obviously be targets because of the relationship between the two; the pvper produces nothing but requires something, and has developed a means to obtain it, while the crafter produces things but (usually) lacks the means to properly defend it. Because of this, warriors aligned to an organization will find they have an important job; protect the crafters.
Town guard KoS list (Karma system featured in the game could also help accomplish town security should a PvPer's karma drop too low, causing NPCs to attack.) and/or other mechanicisms would of course be welcome in aiding the defense against PvPers, and ways to protect items, such as locked containers and/or 'bound' important items, so to speak, which could last for one or two deaths before requiring a new 'bind'.

Restricting a sandbox game reduces player enjoyment, imo, and while dying may be frustrating, a game without death is hard to pull off, especially in such a player oriented game. (ATITD is an obvious exception.) Even restricted PK/only animal deaths could be less preferable compare to open PvP.
on another note;
Automatic game punishment of pvpers would also make the mechanic a much less enjoyable one, whereas player-imposed punishments assisted by game mechanics can be quite satisfying and add an element of danger to the pvper as well.

Hope I could at least make one point there. ;)

I think your ideas could work well in a combat oriented game, but not in Xsyon. In this game we are after an apocalypse, the word is destroyed and we have to rebuild it...now imagine how much resource is needed for that :) Noone can expect players to stand beside their gathering-crafting tribemate for hours to bodyguard him, they would be bored out of their head.
So the risk of being Pked does encourage teamwork, but not in a very good way...it can be encouraged in much better way, where all of the players can take part in the current activity (like building a huge thing which requires more players).

The are no NPCs in Xsyon right now, and as far as I know there won't be any during the Prelude, so no town guards.

Binding items won't help crafters too much, when they gather-craft-build they don't use armor or weapon, and resources cannot be binded. Apart of that, binding system in a sandbox game...I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like a sandbox type of feature :)
Fighters could easily leave when there are no dangers in the vicinity to hunt animals or somesuch should they all agree it's a good idea. (or not,it IS a sandbox game!)

VowOfSilence

04-11-2010, 03:16 PM

HamsterofDoom wrote:

The problem with ALL of the PVP vs PVE arguments is that they all DETRACT from emergent game play ... heavy handed punishments that prohibit a murderer from playing in a fun a meanful manner ... Until developer spends time to create "meaningful" mechanics that are FUN for EVERYONE.

Edit- TLDR...... Give us tools to make a murderer's life miserable... make the hunter the hunted.

Your suggested features are nice, but they're not a solution to the problem. How is your average griefed newbie going to make a high-level griefer's life miserable? What can he possibly offer to other high-level players to help him out?

Quite frankly, i don't think a game can be fun for everyone. A game cannot cater to newbies and newbie-killers alike...

HamsterofDoom

04-11-2010, 04:25 PM

How is your average griefed newbie going to make a high-level griefer's life miserable?

By giving the murderer 48 hours of being hunted...

What can he possibly offer to other high-level players to help him out?

It's pretty likely that murderers will have more than one person with a bounty on them. And even if that is not the case.. there are people that like to hunt murderers for fun and sport. Kind of like there are people that like to hunt newbies for fun. And with a system such as the one I have proposed, the anti-pks would have a tool to actually locate murderers who have killed recently. In other games you kind of just patrol around trying to find someone.

Also... given how easy it is to escape currently a system like this would allow for the anti-pks to set up a strategy to capture and/or kill the murderer.

And yes.. maybe I placed too much emphasis on EVERYONE, you can never truly make everyone happy. But is that an excuse not to try? Does it justify either making a game with split servers, safe zones, pointless rankings, and developer implemented rewards/punishments? In current and past open pvp games, the mechanics that have been used to encourage certain behaviors and discourage others all have a few things in common... they alienate one side or the other, and add no FUN to the game for anyone(WoW's High Warlord Grind anyone?).

In MMO's it seems to be a common theme to use subtractive measures(nerfs) to balance everything out rather than additive measures(buffs and player driven mechanics).

Wingnut

04-11-2010, 06:03 PM

Can't imagine why a murderer would only be such (a murderer) for 48 hours. There is no statute of limitation on murder. (time limit for punishment) People will hunt you until the end of your life. That is the way it should be. Gee, that might not be fun for the murderer. Well gosh, murdering is not a good thing. Folks who decide to do bad things should expect life to change for them. And not in a good way. Granted, its their game (the devs) and they can make it any way they want to. Personally I vote with my money. Bad game, no money.
So far I'm looking at an interesting game. Good ideas and some pretty well thought out limits. Looking forward to see how it all comes out.

sisler86

04-12-2010, 12:07 AM

prokop15 wrote:

VowOfSilence wrote:

Your suggested features are nice, but they're not a solution to the problem. How is your average griefed newbie going to make a high-level griefer's life miserable? What can he possibly offer to other high-level players to help him out?

Quite frankly, I don't think a game can be fun for everyone. A game cannot cater to newbies and newbie-killers alike...

Now this is about newbies being griefed? Y'all are grasping at straws. This argument that people are solo players is nuts too,

I'd honestly be willing to bet that the solo community in the MMORPG world outnumber the PvP's and group players.

Blue Pig

04-24-2010, 01:07 AM

I've been reading some of the posts here on PvP/PK. Here's my recollection of a very fun text based MUD I played called The Eternal City. It's still around, but Scott, the owner, sold it to... you can google it and find out. It's pretty much a mess now with open PvP but there are problems with changed mechanics as well. The game was much better when it had.. open PvP. Well now how can that be?

The original game had roleplaying as the Prime Directive. You could kill anyone you wanted but there was... permadeath (you could come back if you had luck points and those were not that hard to get, but they were hard enough to get that you had to be careful when engaging in activity that could get you killed. If you didn't have a luck point, you had to wait, or risk death, permanently. And if you hunted NPCs and they killed you... permadeath (unless you had a luck point).

Now, if you had a very good in game reason to kill a PC (player character), then you could do so. However, that reason would always be looked at by Scott, the developer. And if you did not have a very good in game roleplaying reason for killing someone then you were led out to the chop block and were beheaded (permadeath and no luck points to save you from Scott). As a note, playing a crazy maniac who was a murderer was not a good roleplaying reason to kill someone. People who did that were banned from the game. True, Scott only had about 200-300 people to monitor, but he did so. And the game was better for it.

Playing the game was great. There was always the threat that someone could kill you so you were always on your toes. The threat of permanent death was enough to get your adrenaline going--though I only heard of several (maybe 3 or 4) legal killings happening in a year or two. And the game let you focus on medicine (Healer), being a fighter, a politician and so forth.

Remember that there was permadeath (you took a year to build a character?--too bad, he's dead--if you had no semi-hard to come by luck points--and you might get one or two luck points a month). Got killed by a NPC? Too bad. Start over. So reading how some players here label themselves as hardcore is at times amusing to me. Any game that doesn't have permadeath is not hardcore to me.

That game was fun because of the roleplaying, the politics, the events (where you could wind up dead forever) and it really kept you on your toes. I obviously can't explain the whole thing, you had to play the game to feel it. It was a good game, but then he sold it and it went to hell.

Now, I'm not suggesting that permadeath be implemented here, and I know that roleplaying to many people draws a huh?

I'm saying that a game can have permadeath (I died once but was lucky enough to have three whole luck points), roleplaying as the Prime Directive, and active developer moderation and events and be fun.

The DAoC RvR model was great too. That's the best model (outside of The Eternal City's strict developer moderation) that I've ever seen. And DAoC was very popular.

Essentially the developers make the game fun, or they make the game not fun (and that's subjective as well). And here, I sense a that the developers might have more involvement than in other games--given the somewhat limited (projected) participation.

Whatever they do, if the game isn't fun for people, those people will leave.

I think people shouldn't say, "Oh, this game sounds so great to me, I just have to play it." That's a bit too rabid for me. I'm a Star Trek fan and pretty much knew Cryptic was going to botch STO beyond belief as soon as I heard they bought out Perpetual. I played the closed and open beta and I saw it was a horrible game (the space based PvP was very interesting and fairly good though--I played the Kingon faction). And I'll be damned but I actually bought the game. Foolish. I quit three weeks later. No content for Klingons, idiotic content for Feds, and space was a shoebox, not a galaxy. Space, the final shoebox. No thanks.

So I ask this of the developers. Meaningful PvP, please. PvP that's somewhat cerebral. No dumb PvP, please. Let PvP have meaningful consequences and make it so people have to consider well before they attempt it. Otherwise it's just another open PvP game and Darkfall is a good example of a game that failed. There are many other examples. Let's put it this way: I can play a crazed maniac who kills people. I'd rather not. I mean, if I kill a person, I expect them to stay dead, or expend something hard to get to come back to life. Otherwise, what's the point?

And content. People will leave quickly without content :)

JCatano

04-25-2010, 11:27 PM

Pig -

Come down to Kalthadar, already.

:)

Blue Pig

04-26-2010, 11:55 PM

I'm scared JC :ohmy: I like the walls and towers of my newbie town. Oh well, have to die sometime. I'll make it down there and see if there's anything I can do.

***Edit.

My 7 day trial expired and I tried to buy a sub using the PayPal option. That failed and I submitted a ticket. So until DF gets their act together I have to wait, lol. Never heard of a company that couldn't take money. I mean, it's like they're from Greece or something :S

**Edit 2. It works using FireFox, lol. All is okay.

Shrimps

04-28-2010, 08:12 PM

If people say that they're "Hardcore" from darkfall, it generally means that they hardcore macroed.

Just saying.

Most open world pvp games that are refrenced to as being "hardcore" are usually not.
But I guess that was your point

Blue Pig

04-29-2010, 04:16 AM

Yes, JC has explained the unfortunate problems with Darkfall to me. Aside from that, I personally think an open PvP world and mechanics to make it work well is very hard to create and maintain. People are initially excited, but then they leave as uncontrolled/unrelenting ganking wears them out.

Don't get me wrong, some people like this very much and will continue to play, but the population of the server will not be large, relatively speaking. And if the developers want that, then there is no problem.

For instance, Eve Online is a very harsh PvP game, but even there you have safe zones (1.0 - .6 space). These safe zones are not "absolutley" safe, but they come close enough.

I wrote of The Eternal City, but that game had no more than 300-350 people tops playing it (and usually not at once, and usually more like 50-75 people) so Scott had an easy time controlling it.

Before I croak, I'd like to see a game like The Eternal City (TEC) in an MMORPG format. Atriarch was supposed to have semi-permadeath in it (Atriarch.com) but that game has been in development for 10 years and I think it's dead. Scott actually tried to launch an MMORPG version of TEC but that didn't work out.

You really can't force people to roleplay, although you can certainly limit their "ganking" exploits by having permadeath (and softening that with "points" or some such, rationed out on a monthly basis or some other criteria, that can "revive" you). You can also make it harder to actually kill people and easier for them to disengage and escape, at least 1 vs 1, (which TEC had) but that won't be for everyone either.

And "meaningful" PvP has different meanings to different people. I've purposefully not read too much about Xsyon so I can just experience it.

Kunra

04-30-2010, 03:21 PM

Just discovered Xsyon today and have to say I was loving it reading all the Features. Everything I have ever loved about MMO's since I first started playing SWG.

Here we have a game that seems to be a Crafting centric game and has features that harken me back to all tose offline "building" games.

All those game where you had to chop down trees and mine minerals to build your town. Here is a game exactly like those and it's an MMO! I love it!

Then I hit a brick wall, open world PvP. Not my cup of tea and, to be honest, really doesn't go well with a crafting centric game, imo.

Wanna know what happens when you make a crafting centric game then try and force PvP on the Crafter/PvE crowd? I suggest you take a VERY good look at Fallen Earth. Another "indie" game that was created to be crafting centric yet focused on PvP after release.

I can guarantee you, this game without open world PvP would instantly draw all of the FE crowd. Not sure how many players are there but you could expect a few thousand playing this game.

I have 1 question though, have the devs stated unequivicably that open worl PvP is permanent? Have they indicated that's something that might change?

Okie

04-30-2010, 03:38 PM

If i see some1 pven or wearing or gathering something I want I will kill him. Stat loss for this is retarded but it should affect my rep and not allow me into some citys thats fine.

cbowsin

04-30-2010, 03:52 PM

Kunra wrote:

Then I hit a brick wall, open world PvP. Not my cup of tea and, to be honest, really doesn't go well with a crafting centric game, imo.

Well I don't think this is a crafting centric game per-se, but more of a struggle to survive centric game. The crafting is necessary for players to obtain food, clothes, and shelter (basic needs of surviving) but there are risks in this virtual world not only from the environment but from others. I love the post-apocalyptic theme and many movies I've enjoyed such as Postman, Road Warrior, Book of Eli, Waterworld, etc, they always explored the theme of civilized men who become outlaws in a lawless world as their means of survival. So I'm not all that interested in running around and killing everyone I see but I expect to encounter some situations where the "live and let die" attitude is necessary for as a means to survive.

Kunra

04-30-2010, 04:02 PM

cbowsin wrote:

Kunra wrote:

Then I hit a brick wall, open world PvP. Not my cup of tea and, to be honest, really doesn't go well with a crafting centric game, imo.

Well I don't think this is a crafting centric game per-se, but more of a struggle to survive centric game. The crafting is necessary for players to obtain food, clothes, and shelter (basic needs of surviving) but there are risks in this virtual world not only from the environment but from others. I love the post-apocalyptic theme and many movies I've enjoyed such as Postman, Road Warrior, Book of Eli, Waterworld, etc, they always explored the theme of civilized men who become outlaws in a lawless world as their means of survival. So I'm not all that interested in running around and killing everyone I see but I expect to encounter some situations where the "live and let die" attitude is necessary for as a means to survive.

From a Crafter perspective, I saw a game I wanted to play untill I saw those words. I saw what I thought to be a perfect Crafters game, a game I would be willing to to play for years untill I saw Open World PvP.

Chances are, I am not alone but I took the time to register and give my opinion. Most others won't even bother after reading Open World PvP.

Okie

04-30-2010, 04:05 PM

Kunra wrote:

Just discovered Xsyon today and have to say I was loving it reading all the Features. Everything I have ever loved about MMO's since I first started playing SWG.

Here we have a game that seems to be a Crafting centric game and has features that harken me back to all tose offline "building" games.

All those game where you had to chop down trees and mine minerals to build your town. Here is a game exactly like those and it's an MMO! I love it!

Then I hit a brick wall, open world PvP. Not my cup of tea and, to be honest, really doesn't go well with a crafting centric game, imo.

Wanna know what happens when you make a crafting centric game then try and force PvP on the Crafter/PvE crowd? I suggest you take a VERY good look at Fallen Earth. Another "indie" game that was created to be crafting centric yet focused on PvP after release.

I can guarantee you, this game without open world PvP would instantly draw all of the FE crowd. Not sure how many players are there but you could expect a few thousand playing this game.

I have 1 question though, have the devs stated unequivicably that open worl PvP is permanent? Have they indicated that's something that might change?

There are plenty of crafting and safezone games plz go to those and leave the few open world pvp games with item loss alone.

Kunra

04-30-2010, 04:14 PM

Okie wrote:

Kunra wrote:

Just discovered Xsyon today and have to say I was loving it reading all the Features. Everything I have ever loved about MMO's since I first started playing SWG.

Here we have a game that seems to be a Crafting centric game and has features that harken me back to all tose offline "building" games.

All those game where you had to chop down trees and mine minerals to build your town. Here is a game exactly like those and it's an MMO! I love it!

Then I hit a brick wall, open world PvP. Not my cup of tea and, to be honest, really doesn't go well with a crafting centric game, imo.

Wanna know what happens when you make a crafting centric game then try and force PvP on the Crafter/PvE crowd? I suggest you take a VERY good look at Fallen Earth. Another "indie" game that was created to be crafting centric yet focused on PvP after release.

I can guarantee you, this game without open world PvP would instantly draw all of the FE crowd. Not sure how many players are there but you could expect a few thousand playing this game.

I have 1 question though, have the devs stated unequivicably that open worl PvP is permanent? Have they indicated that's something that might change?

There are plenty of crafting and safezone games plz go to those and leave the few open world pvp games with item loss alone.

And here we have the kind of attitude towards new prospective players that the FE forums had. Ck the FE website to see how that worked out for them.

Good talking to ya folks, i'll let myself out.

Okie

04-30-2010, 04:20 PM

Kunra wrote:

Okie wrote:

Kunra wrote:

Just discovered Xsyon today and have to say I was loving it reading all the Features. Everything I have ever loved about MMO's since I first started playing SWG.

Here we have a game that seems to be a Crafting centric game and has features that harken me back to all tose offline "building" games.

All those game where you had to chop down trees and mine minerals to build your town. Here is a game exactly like those and it's an MMO! I love it!

Then I hit a brick wall, open world PvP. Not my cup of tea and, to be honest, really doesn't go well with a crafting centric game, imo.

Wanna know what happens when you make a crafting centric game then try and force PvP on the Crafter/PvE crowd? I suggest you take a VERY good look at Fallen Earth. Another "indie" game that was created to be crafting centric yet focused on PvP after release.

I can guarantee you, this game without open world PvP would instantly draw all of the FE crowd. Not sure how many players are there but you could expect a few thousand playing this game.

I have 1 question though, have the devs stated unequivicably that open worl PvP is permanent? Have they indicated that's something that might change?

There are plenty of crafting and safezone games plz go to those and leave the few open world pvp games with item loss alone.

And here we have the kind of attitude towards new prospective players that the FE forums had. Ck the FE website to see how that worked out for them.

Good talking to ya folks, i'll let myself out. Well im a new player too havent tried the game yet but your bitching about the things that attract me to the game.

Arcturus

04-30-2010, 04:27 PM

The only problem I have with open world pvp is it tends to attract douchebags. I'm fine getting killed and looted. I'm not fine with the trash talk and immature behaviour that sometimes goes along with these sort of gaming environments. If I'm out gathering and someone kills me that is fine I wasn't watching my back. I don't appreciate the "rofl u newb!! get shit on!!" tells that sometimes follow. This sadly is a hazards of mmos of any genre.

Kitsume

04-30-2010, 04:29 PM

I am a crafter/explorer and I will admit it, I'm also a little bit of a carebear. But I also believe that open PvP adds a good balance to a game, as long as the game does not become all about the PvP and gangs of gankers roaming the fields looking for easy prey. Open PvP does not mean Free for All PvP though, and that is one thing that appeals to me with Xsyon. The PvP can have consequences, depending on your actions, your alignment and combat mode.

Open PvP limits one of the potential of resource stealing and annoyance creation by griefers. Without safe zones, the griefers won't have a place to go to be safe from retribution. The only other choice they would have to escape an angry mob would be to log out, hopefully there will be some sort of timer on logging out as well. (obviously I dislike griefers)

For sometime the Open PvP games have given the upper hand to the FFA PvP crowd, but lately I have been seeing a trend in new games to limit the griefing/ganking by a portion of the population. The devs and producers of these games are coming to realize that this segment of the population is driving out another segment of their players, and once gone, the griefers/gankers leave because they have no one left to pick on.

I don't know how Xsyon will eventually turn out, I am hopeful with Jordi's vision and a good balance of all player types that we end up with a fun and entertaining game environment.

Okie

04-30-2010, 04:32 PM

Arcturus wrote:

The only problem I have with open world pvp is it tends to attract douchebags. I'm fine getting killed and looted. I'm not fine with the trash talk and immature behaviour that sometimes goes along with these sort of gaming environments. If I'm out gathering and someone kills me that is fine I wasn't watching my back. I don't appreciate the "rofl u newb!! get shit on!!" tells that sometimes follow. This sadly is a hazards of mmos of any genre.

I agree with all of this. I love to pvp and it will be my main focus as long as its good but I dont grief or pick on noobs. I dont think alot of people understand that there is a difference between griefers and pvpers.

Jadzia

04-30-2010, 04:49 PM

Okie wrote:

If i see some1 pven or wearing or gathering something I want I will kill him. Stat loss for this is retarded but it should affect my rep and not allow me into some citys thats fine.
Its not sure that you'll be able to do that in Xsyon, and since you said you ordered the game when you were drunk and you kind of know nothing about it, I suggest you to start reading Xsyon's posts :)

JCatano

04-30-2010, 05:28 PM

Kunra -

Fallen Earth does not have open-PvP.

Anyway... Jadzia, he will be able to plant your face in the dirt at any time if he doesn't mind dealing with the consequences.

Jadzia

04-30-2010, 05:35 PM

JCatano

04-30-2010, 06:01 PM

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Kunra -

Fallen Earth does not have open-PvP.

Anyway... Jadzia, he will be able to plant your face in the dirt at any time if he doesn't mind dealing with the consequences.
Since the combat system isn't done yet, and the former posts said he wouldn't be able to, what did you base your statement on?

Where does it say you can't attack anyone you want? (Besides towns for "early" Prelude.)

You can't start this, again, just because Xsyon's "run" speed change post in reference to combat-mode was deleted in the rollback, as was the post from rosso(?) that said he was able to catch up to players about 50% of the time. It came down to stamina management.

Okie

04-30-2010, 06:03 PM

Kunra

04-30-2010, 07:34 PM

JCatano wrote:

Kunra -

Fallen Earth does not have open-PvP.

Anyway... Jadzia, he will be able to plant your face in the dirt at any time if he doesn't mind dealing with the consequences.

Though it did have PvP, it did not have OPen World PvP..yet it still failed.

You think Open World PvP is more attractive to the Crafter types then localized PvP?

Fe had 45k forum users at release, Xsyon has 2400 and release is, what, 2 weeks away?

Get rid of the Open World PvP and I will pre-order tommorrow, keep it and never see me or my money again.

Crafting and Open World PvP do not go together. Simple as that.

Jadzia

04-30-2010, 07:44 PM

JCatano wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Kunra -

Fallen Earth does not have open-PvP.

Anyway... Jadzia, he will be able to plant your face in the dirt at any time if he doesn't mind dealing with the consequences.
Since the combat system isn't done yet, and the former posts said he wouldn't be able to, what did you base your statement on?

Where does it say you can't attack anyone you want? (Besides towns for "early" Prelude.)

You can't start this, again, just because Xsyon's "run" speed change post in reference to combat-mode was deleted in the rollback, as was the post from rosso(?) that said he was able to catch up to players about 50% of the time. It came down to stamina management.
You can attack of course, but that doesn't mean he can 'plant your face in the dirt at any time'. Being able to attack doesn't mean being able to win or even to fight till the end every time.

Xsyon didn't say a word about combat movement speed in his post. He said 'players are able to run every direction in combat mode now.' If they haven't been able to run forward before then yes, this means they can move faster in combat now, but if they haven been, this only means that they are able to run into a new direction now (like aside or back).

And if the handicap is stamina based or speed based it really doesn't matter...the point is that there is handicap for the attackers.

JCatano

04-30-2010, 08:24 PM

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Kunra -

Fallen Earth does not have open-PvP.

Anyway... Jadzia, he will be able to plant your face in the dirt at any time if he doesn't mind dealing with the consequences.
Since the combat system isn't done yet, and the former posts said he wouldn't be able to, what did you base your statement on?

Where does it say you can't attack anyone you want? (Besides towns for "early" Prelude.)

You can't start this, again, just because Xsyon's "run" speed change post in reference to combat-mode was deleted in the rollback, as was the post from rosso(?) that said he was able to catch up to players about 50% of the time. It came down to stamina management.
You can attack of course, but that doesn't mean he can 'plant your face in the dirt at any time'. Being able to attack doesn't mean being able to win or even to fight till the end every time.

Xsyon didn't say a word about combat movement speed in his post. He said 'players are able to run every direction in combat mode now.' If they haven't been able to run forward before then yes, this means they can move faster in combat now, but if they haven been, this only means that they are able to run into a new direction now (like aside or back).

And if the handicap is stamina based or speed based it really doesn't matter...the point is that there is handicap for the attackers.

Your reply to Okie implied he couldn't even attack you.

Yes, Xsyon did mention it. In the patch notes and the "Combat Changes" thread he said "players are now allowed to run in all directions while in combat-mode". (Paraphrased). That means they were not allowed to run in all directions while in combat-mode before. Then, r0ss0 expanded on that with his examples of how he could now catch up to people about 50% of the time, which was not possible to do before the change.

You even realized this in that thread, since you replied to Palo about something with regard to "running" versus "sprinting" when he said you wouldn't be able to run away, anymore.

VowOfSilence

04-30-2010, 09:08 PM

Kunra wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Kunra -

Fallen Earth does not have open-PvP.

Anyway... Jadzia, he will be able to plant your face in the dirt at any time if he doesn't mind dealing with the consequences.

Though it did have PvP, it did not have OPen World PvP..yet it still failed.

What makes you think FE failed?
As far as i know, it's going pretty well...

Kunra

04-30-2010, 09:14 PM

VowOfSilence wrote:

Kunra wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Kunra -

Fallen Earth does not have open-PvP.

Anyway... Jadzia, he will be able to plant your face in the dirt at any time if he doesn't mind dealing with the consequences.

Though it did have PvP, it did not have OPen World PvP..yet it still failed.

What makes you think FE failed?
As far as i know, it's going pretty well...

Icarus announced a "restructuring" of the entire company(corporate speak for "we canned alot of folks). "restructuring" also is synonomis with Chapter 11.

Most rumors have the staff loss at 80% of all staff. Officially, they have stated they "downsized" to a total of 28 Devs.

Add the fact that the Test servers currently have the next NGE of mmo's due to go live soon with less then 2 weeks testing, you do the math.

Jadzia

05-01-2010, 05:31 AM

JCatano wrote:

Your reply to Okie implied he couldn't even attack you.

Okie wrote:

If i see some1 pven or wearing or gathering something I want I will kill him.
I replied to this, saying its not sure he will be able to do that.

Yes, Xsyon did mention it. In the patch notes and the "Combat Changes" thread he said "players are now allowed to run in all directions while in combat-mode". (Paraphrased). That means they were not allowed to run in all directions while in combat-mode before.

Hmm, lol, did you read my post ? I said the exactly same, and wrote 2 conclusions...only 1 of them means they can be faster now.

Then, r0ss0 expanded on that with his examples of how he could now catch up to people about 50% of the time, which was not possible to do before the change.

I'm not sure about that, this should be tested better, because friends said that out of combat mode they were able to run like "energized bunnies" lol. Thats obviously a bug, so things will change I'm sure.I'm looking forward to see more posts about this from players actually in game.

You even realized this in that thread, since you replied to Palo about something with regard to "running" versus "sprinting" when he said you wouldn't be able to run away, anymore.
You are mixing me up with someone else, I've never said anything like that :)

necoo

05-01-2010, 10:46 AM

Kunra wrote:

Though it did have PvP, it did not have OPen World PvP..yet it still failed.

You think Open World PvP is more attractive to the Crafter types then localized PvP?

Fe had 45k forum users at release, Xsyon has 2400 and release is, what, 2 weeks away?

Get rid of the Open World PvP and I will pre-order tommorrow, keep it and never see me or my money again.

Crafting and Open World PvP do not go together. Simple as that.

i see that someone fails to realize that this is a post-apocalyptic game... have you ever seen a non-violent post-apocalyptic game... just look at fall out, you don't go around all happy happy, you go around blasting people with mini-nukes and watching them go boom in all the blood and gore that you would only see in the most pleasant of nightmares.

JCatano

05-01-2010, 01:33 PM

Jadzia wrote:
Its not sure that you'll be able to do that in Xsyon, and since you said you ordered the game when you were drunk and you kind of know nothing about it, I suggest you to start reading Xsyon's posts :)

If that isn't implying he has no idea about the mechanics and wouldn't be able to attack you, then... Yeah.

You said:

"Xsyon didn't say a word about combat movement speed in his post." - Jadzia

I told you where he did post it (in two places). There were many posts after the change, and a whole lot of happy people (except you). He also said other tweaks would be coming and that more suggestions (like more stamina use while swinging and running/sprinting) would possibly be tried.

About r0ss0 (99% sure it was him - could of been that reuben guy - something with an "r")... You aren't sure about what? He said he was able to catch up about 50% of the time while in combat-mode, which felt about right to him. Seems fair to me.

And, nope... Not mixing you up. Palo called you out by name, and you came in and made a reply about "run" not meaning "sprint" or something along those lines.

Jadzia

05-01-2010, 01:47 PM

necoo wrote:

Kunra wrote:

Though it did have PvP, it did not have OPen World PvP..yet it still failed.

You think Open World PvP is more attractive to the Crafter types then localized PvP?

Fe had 45k forum users at release, Xsyon has 2400 and release is, what, 2 weeks away?

Get rid of the Open World PvP and I will pre-order tommorrow, keep it and never see me or my money again.

Crafting and Open World PvP do not go together. Simple as that.

i see that someone fails to realize that this is a post-apocalyptic game... have you ever seen a non-violent post-apocalyptic game... just look at fall out, you don't go around all happy happy, you go around blasting people with mini-nukes and watching them go boom in all the blood and gore that you would only see in the most pleasant of nightmares.
Lol don't we players keep complaining about that games are the same old same old...and now you are saying a post-apocalyptic game can only be done one way ? If there are so many games with the same setting, why to make another one ? Its better to create something new and fresh. After a real apocalyps after a short period of chaos people would reorganize society, law and order...chaos simply doesn't work in long term. Only a small amount of the populations are criminals, and they would be hunted down fast or would be forced to live in outlaw areas.

Jadzia

05-01-2010, 01:50 PM

JCatano wrote:

Jadzia wrote:
Its not sure that you'll be able to do that in Xsyon, and since you said you ordered the game when you were drunk and you kind of know nothing about it, I suggest you to start reading Xsyon's posts :)

If that isn't implying he has no idea about the mechanics and wouldn't be able to attack you, then... Yeah.

Lol if thats implying to you that I said he can't attack me, then its no wonder we argue so much...you read something else not what I've written. So further debate is pointless :)

necoo

05-01-2010, 08:43 PM

Jadzia wrote:

necoo wrote:

Kunra wrote:

Though it did have PvP, it did not have OPen World PvP..yet it still failed.

You think Open World PvP is more attractive to the Crafter types then localized PvP?

Fe had 45k forum users at release, Xsyon has 2400 and release is, what, 2 weeks away?

Get rid of the Open World PvP and I will pre-order tommorrow, keep it and never see me or my money again.

Crafting and Open World PvP do not go together. Simple as that.

i see that someone fails to realize that this is a post-apocalyptic game... have you ever seen a non-violent post-apocalyptic game... just look at fall out, you don't go around all happy happy, you go around blasting people with mini-nukes and watching them go boom in all the blood and gore that you would only see in the most pleasant of nightmares.
Lol don't we players keep complaining about that games are the same old same old...and now you are saying a post-apocalyptic game can only be done one way ? If there are so many games with the same setting, why to make another one ? Its better to create something new and fresh. After a real apocalyps after a short period of chaos people would reorganize society, law and order...chaos simply doesn't work in long term. Only a small amount of the populations are criminals, and they would be hunted down fast or would be forced to live in outlaw areas.

Once again you are overestimation people i believe i have already explained that such idealistic peace will never happen. even today it is far from peaceful, whatever peace we do have is only here because of the fear of complete annihilation due to nuclear weapons... without that we would undoubtedly be in war world 3 already. History itself can even tell you never once since the dawn of time has there been peace, since the begging of man their have always been disputes, these disputes eventually lead to fights, and then people die, we have always found ways to kill others weather it be merely killing them by hand or by blasting them with explosives, in the end these fights eventually lead to war, the true embodiment of chaos. "Chaos simply doesn't work in long term" huh... is that really so, then what has the world been experiencing all this time if not chaos? Well i say to you that chaos is the naturally state of the universe. The stars, the sky, and even the heavens themselves are in a constant state of chaos. Our earth, our moon, our sun, our solar system, our galaxy, our universe... it was all formed, and is continuing to be formed due to this constant state of chaos. It is peace that is unnatural and it is peace that cannot work in the long term, even if it is feasible the people of the world will not allow it disputes will always arise and that is the beginning of chaos, it is in our blood, and fighting our blood will prove fruitless. Such a pity that any glimpse of order, no matter how strong it is, is so easily shattered.

Kunra

05-01-2010, 08:57 PM

Spitfire5

05-01-2010, 09:07 PM

What's wrong with world PvP??

Look at WoW fanboys, being a Ex player myself... All i ever hear about is people crying that world pvp is dead.

Once world pvp is taken out of a game there's really no need for it to be played - If darkfall had instanced pvp it wouldn't of been played at all.

INB4 "Well xsyon isn't darkfall" No shit, all i'm trying to say you have PvP players and Pve/crafters (I like both).. Never have i once seen a post about how this game wont have open world pvp (other than tribe safe zones) But clearly that's not good enough for some people eh?

necoo

05-01-2010, 09:44 PM

Kunra wrote:

necoo wrote:

Kunra wrote:

Though it did have PvP, it did not have OPen World PvP..yet it still failed.

You think Open World PvP is more attractive to the Crafter types then localized PvP?

Fe had 45k forum users at release, Xsyon has 2400 and release is, what, 2 weeks away?

Get rid of the Open World PvP and I will pre-order tommorrow, keep it and never see me or my money again.

Crafting and Open World PvP do not go together. Simple as that.

i see that someone fails to realize that this is a post-apocalyptic game... have you ever seen a non-violent post-apocalyptic game... just look at fall out, you don't go around all happy happy, you go around blasting people with mini-nukes and watching them go boom in all the blood and gore that you would only see in the most pleasant of nightmares.

As a Day 1 Alpha Tester/Player for Fallen Earth, yes, I know what it means to play that type of game.

How is FE doing now?

yes yes we all know about your crappy FE obsession... anyway it might not be doing to well but can you really contribute it all to open pvp... oh and here is another example dark fall is doing quite well and it is open pvp... as such you cannot contribute a games failure, or success based on one aspect of the game... anyway i don't really see much of a difference from pvp and pve in the first place, what if there was advanced npc that would grow in strength, attack you, and even steal your stuff... would that npc be any different that if a regular player attacked you, killed you and stole your stuff. in the end it is all the same the only difference now is that players are able to attack you just like animals and other npc

JCatano

05-01-2010, 11:02 PM

Jadzia wrote:
Lol if thats implying to you that I said he can't attack me, then its no wonder we argue so much...you read something else not what I've written. So further debate is pointless :)

Then, why would he need to read Xsyon's posts? Xsyon never said you couldn't attack or kill someone.

Kunra -

FE may not be doing well, because it sucks. I played it. It is just not a good game, in my opinion, and it's not because it has PvP.

One reason Xsyon has 2400 registered forum members is because the game was intentionally kept under wraps. I think Xsyon even made a post about it. It should be somewhere around here. Most of us found out about this game around 6-8 weeks ago.

Darkfall had 300,000+ registered forum members and has open-PvP/full-loot. While it is currently hurting population-wise, it's not because of PK/loot. DF's main problems are the grind, and no depth with relation to character development and crafting. Also, not much "fluff". There's nothing interesting to do in DF except PvP.

Open PvP is a niche market, especially with looting, but there is a place for it.

Jadzia

05-02-2010, 07:40 AM

necoo wrote:

Once again you are overestimation people i believe i have already explained that such idealistic peace will never happen. even today it is far from peaceful, whatever peace we do have is only here because of the fear of complete annihilation due to nuclear weapons... without that we would undoubtedly be in war world 3 already. History itself can even tell you never once since the dawn of time has there been peace, since the begging of man their have always been disputes, these disputes eventually lead to fights, and then people die, we have always found ways to kill others weather it be merely killing them by hand or by blasting them with explosives, in the end these fights eventually lead to war, the true embodiment of chaos. "Chaos simply doesn't work in long term" huh... is that really so, then what has the world been experiencing all this time if not chaos? Well i say to you that chaos is the naturally state of the universe. The stars, the sky, and even the heavens themselves are in a constant state of chaos. Our earth, our moon, our sun, our solar system, our galaxy, our universe... it was all formed, and is continuing to be formed due to this constant state of chaos. It is peace that is unnatural and it is peace that cannot work in the long term, even if it is feasible the people of the world will not allow it disputes will always arise and that is the beginning of chaos, it is in our blood, and fighting our blood will prove fruitless. Such a pity that any glimpse of order, no matter how strong it is, is so easily shattered.
No, you misunderstood me. I didn't talk about war, I was talking about criminals inside a society. Wars have always happened and will always happen, humankind doesn't learn :P
What I meant that a society can't exist in long term if there are no rules and laws. You can't just walk up to your neighbour and kill him because he has a better car and you want it. This type of behavior has always been severely punished during the history, not counting short periods of chaoses here and there. A society can't prosper and grow in chaos, so making rules and forcing them to keep it isn't some naive unrealistic philosophy, its necessary for surviving.

On a side note, you are very wrong about planets and stars being in chaos, they are under very strict physical and astronomical laws.

pid73

05-02-2010, 07:50 AM

Is it just me or has this thread become completely useless?

What is this all about? What is the definition of "chaos" in these posts? Mathematical chaos theory? Do we have a Ph.D. from MIT here? Oh... look at those spelling errors... No, I think not.

Those "philosophical" questions should be left alone... and :laugh:.

EDIT: I didn't mean you, dear Jadzi :)

Reynolds

05-02-2010, 10:03 AM

Actually three isolated bodies acting in each others gravitational fields strictly speaking are "chaotic" as their exact motions are not predictable.

Over the course of a year these difference between the prediction and reality will be negligible. These negligible differences will grow and grow, meaning in 250,000 years our predictions are near enough useless.

Chaotic just means a system is unpredictable, the time scale at which the predictions a reality diverge do no determine how "chaotic" a system is.

That's your physics lesson for the day!

necoo

05-02-2010, 10:40 AM

Jadzia wrote:

necoo wrote:

Once again you are overestimation people i believe i have already explained that such idealistic peace will never happen. even today it is far from peaceful, whatever peace we do have is only here because of the fear of complete annihilation due to nuclear weapons... without that we would undoubtedly be in war world 3 already. History itself can even tell you never once since the dawn of time has there been peace, since the begging of man their have always been disputes, these disputes eventually lead to fights, and then people die, we have always found ways to kill others weather it be merely killing them by hand or by blasting them with explosives, in the end these fights eventually lead to war, the true embodiment of chaos. "Chaos simply doesn't work in long term" huh... is that really so, then what has the world been experiencing all this time if not chaos? Well i say to you that chaos is the naturally state of the universe. The stars, the sky, and even the heavens themselves are in a constant state of chaos. Our earth, our moon, our sun, our solar system, our galaxy, our universe... it was all formed, and is continuing to be formed due to this constant state of chaos. It is peace that is unnatural and it is peace that cannot work in the long term, even if it is feasible the people of the world will not allow it disputes will always arise and that is the beginning of chaos, it is in our blood, and fighting our blood will prove fruitless. Such a pity that any glimpse of order, no matter how strong it is, is so easily shattered.
No, you misunderstood me. I didn't talk about war, I was talking about criminals inside a society. Wars have always happened and will always happen, humankind doesn't learn :P
What I meant that a society can't exist in long term if there are no rules and laws. You can't just walk up to your neighbour and kill him because he has a better car and you want it. This type of behavior has always been severely punished during the history, not counting short periods of chaoses here and there. A society can't prosper and grow in chaos, so making rules and forcing them to keep it isn't some naive unrealistic philosophy, its necessary for surviving.

On a side note, you are very wrong about planets and stars being in chaos, they are under very strict physical and astronomical laws.

there is little difference between war and crime.. in the end countries steal land and resources from other countries just as one would steal a car from another human... just as most countries are not punished for their actions the majority of crime is left unpunished for long periods of time.

also the universe itself is in a constant state of chaos... although it is governed by the laws of physics, or perhaps i should say because it is governed by the laws of physics that this chaos can still rain supreme... stars my seem to be peaceful for long periods of time but a closer look will prove otherwise constant destructive flares from their service, its energy comes from nuclear fusion such a powerful and destructive force that is. pull back a little bit and you will see that it is surrounded by billions of rocks. we have named them planet, asteroids, meteors, and comets. these things tumble and crash into one another creating explosive energies at a large scale. pull back even further and you will see a galaxy with billions of stars these stars spin around a super massive black hole and then there is many more black holes scattered around the galaxy... if one of these stars come close to one, destroyed will that star be... and even without that influence stars eventually die and explode in massive explosions called super novas and in some cases result in a new black hole. pull back even further and you will see a universe which was formed by an explosion on a scale in and of itself called the big bang, further more the galaxies sometimes collide with each other merging and in the process billions of stars die... in short the universe is in a constant state of chaos

Jadzia

05-02-2010, 11:03 AM

necoo wrote:

Jadzia wrote:
there is little difference between war and crime.. in the end countries steal land and resources from other countries just as one would steal a car from another human... just as most countries are not punished for their actions the majority of crime is left unpunished for long periods of time.

This is a very interesting and uncommon point of view about war, and I can't say I'm not agreeing with you...still in a game war and random PKing makes a huge difference.

About the universe lol....something being in change doesn't mean at all its in chaos.

Reynolds

05-02-2010, 11:37 AM

Jadzia wrote:

About the universe lol....something being in change doesn't mean at all its in chaos.

Only if the differential equations governing them have no exact solution.

Jadzia

05-02-2010, 11:43 AM

Reynolds wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

About the universe lol....something being in change doesn't mean at all its in chaos.

Only if the differential equations governing them have no exact solution.
That may happen because of lack of knowledge too....if we leave some factors out of the equation no wonder if there is no exact solution. There may be factors in astronomy unknown by us yet. But we are getting offtopic :P

TheMap

05-02-2010, 12:09 PM

I thought this thread was about PVP and what it should be like? I think we need to start another thread.

pid73

05-02-2010, 12:19 PM

Reynolds wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

About the universe lol....something being in change doesn't mean at all its in chaos.

Only if the differential equations governing them have no exact solution.

Actually, differential equations have 0, 1, a finite set or infinite set of solutions in the real or imaginary.

When the solution contains more than one single point then *ANY* point in the solution is valid.

So... what do you mean with "no exact solution"?

Reynolds

05-02-2010, 12:38 PM

pid73 wrote:

Reynolds wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

About the universe lol....something being in change doesn't mean at all its in chaos.

Only if the differential equations governing them have no exact solution.

Actually, differential equations have 0, 1, a finite set or infinite set of solutions in the real or imaginary.

When the solution contains more than one single point then *ANY* point in the solution is valid.

So... what do you mean with "no exact solution"?

A solution that is only solvable numerically, the 3 body problem is an example of such.

pid73

05-02-2010, 12:44 PM

Reynolds wrote:

A solution that is only solvable numerically, the 3 body problem is an example of such.

But it *is* deterministic. The fact that we can't compute it doesn't mean it's random. Also, don't confuse a mathematical/physical MODEL with the real world it is supposed to describe.

jessebfox

05-03-2010, 07:10 AM

Wow it amazes me this thread continues. Over 40 new messages since I checked no Friday. Not worth reading, but I see there are some people new to Xsyon so they should know what they are getting in to. By design the PVP in Xsyon will be very easy to escape from for those who don't want to fight.

See this thread for an answer about the devs direction with the game and the end result they are striving for

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/7-public-support/16083-very-long-4-questions-for-jooky

TLDR: By design players will easily be able to run from pvp.

Munion

05-03-2010, 08:51 AM

So I've only read up to like page 16, can't read anymore right now =P, but I just have to say one simple yet perfect argument against splitting servers is Pre-Trammel UO vs. Post-Trammel UO.

TheMap

05-03-2010, 09:08 AM

TheMap

05-03-2010, 10:35 AM

jessebfox

05-03-2010, 11:21 AM

Illmaculate wrote:

jessebfox wrote:

Wow it amazes me this thread continues. Over 40 new messages since I checked no Friday. Not worth reading, but I see there are some people new to Xsyon so they should know what they are getting in to. By design the PVP in Xsyon will be very easy to escape from for those who don't want to fight.

See this thread for an answer about the devs direction with the game and the end result they are striving for

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/7-public-support/16083-very-long-4-questions-for-jooky

TLDR: By design players will easily be able to run from pvp.

Wrong.

Have you even played the game recently?

What does the current state of the game have to do with the developers long term goals? It is ironic that you say:

So much misinformation is being spread by people who want so dearly for the combat mechanics to be dumbed down and made easy to cater to their playstyle.

When it is you who qq about the mechanics being changed. Ask yourself this: If the game ends up how it is stated in that post that the devs want it, would you play the game, or qq about 'dumbed down' mechanics?

pro tip: when checking out a new game to play, make sure the focus you want is listed in the 'features' section or maybe even the 'about' section, otherwise find another game. I originally came here because I was told it was gonna be open pvp. After research I am still making the purchase but at least I am aware it's not a pvp focused game. Others should be aware of the direction of the game too. Not your direction, but the devs'

Iron Maiden

05-03-2010, 11:32 AM

Nice man, you got a "Very long question" answered by the main dev!

Almost a month ago... Since then there's been posts from that same dev saying that combat mode "CAN" be changed and it's up for discussion.

Since the forum rollback those threads have been deleted - but they were there for a while.

Pro tip: There wasn't anything said about how this game will or will NOT be a pvp focused game, the discussion was about combat speed which has nothing to do with a PvP focused game, next time you bring your worthless posts in at least put something useful to the topic.

TheMap

05-03-2010, 12:36 PM

jessebfox wrote:

Illmaculate wrote:

jessebfox wrote:

Wow it amazes me this thread continues. Over 40 new messages since I checked no Friday. Not worth reading, but I see there are some people new to Xsyon so they should know what they are getting in to. By design the PVP in Xsyon will be very easy to escape from for those who don't want to fight.

See this thread for an answer about the devs direction with the game and the end result they are striving for

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/7-public-support/16083-very-long-4-questions-for-jooky

TLDR: By design players will easily be able to run from pvp.

Wrong.

Have you even played the game recently?

What does the current state of the game have to do with the developers long term goals? It is ironic that you say:

So much misinformation is being spread by people who want so dearly for the combat mechanics to be dumbed down and made easy to cater to their playstyle.

When it is you who qq about the mechanics being changed. Ask yourself this: If the game ends up how it is stated in that post that the devs want it, would you play the game, or qq about 'dumbed down' mechanics?

pro tip: when checking out a new game to play, make sure the focus you want is listed in the 'features' section or maybe even the 'about' section, otherwise find another game. I originally came here because I was told it was gonna be open pvp. After research I am still making the purchase but at least I am aware it's not a pvp focused game. Others should be aware of the direction of the game too. Not your direction, but the devs'

The question on your thread is:

3) and how easy would it be for someone to run away from a pvp ambush?

a) nearly impossible: if you get hit in combat you are locked in, you better see them coming and run right away and have a better running skill
b) hard: must have some high skills to get away, and even then can be countered by your opponent's high skills
c) somewhat hard: if you get hit a couple times you won't get away, but it is easy to run right away when you get tagged
d) not hard: even down to half health, it will be pretty easy to disengage and get away
e) easy: you can retreat from a fight even after you see things are going bad.
f) very easy: you can get away even at very low health, and if you want to you can avoid all combat situations by fleeing.

The answer is:
3.) Right now, it is F. I, and I think everyone else would like to see this change to C

Now to me he is saying its very easy to get away. But we would like to have it changed. I agree it needs to be somewhat hard to get away but not impossible.

Also the whole post of questions is loaded. You could have just asked him instead of leading him to what you want to hear.

Also you say the vision is for pve and if we read the features list that we can easily see it. Well I am sorry, but I cant easily see any side of the fence. There is nothing in that features list that points this as a PVE game. If it was made for PVE they would remove the PVP all together and make it guild wars only. Its OPEN pvp for a reason. I am a murderer/pk in most pvp games I play. And this one will be no different. So please get used to the fact that other type of people would like to enjoy the game as well.

Kitsume

05-03-2010, 01:05 PM

TheMap wrote:
So please get used to the fact that other type of people would like to enjoy the game as well.

Same comment back at you. You want to enjoy the game at other players' expense.

The devs has said they will monitor the PvP and not allow it to become a gank fest like some other open PvP games. I saw the ability to run from a fight one of the ways to accomplish this. Still the game has not been released, it still could change. You want to be able to attack and kill anyone you choose, there are some us may want to avoid the fight and run away.

You want to force your play style on others but do not want to be affected by a different play style. Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

JCatano

05-03-2010, 01:26 PM

TheMap wrote:

Illmaculate wrote:

Combat mode speed has since been changed so that you move at the SAME speed as out of it.

So much misinformation is being spread by people who want so dearly for the combat mechanics to be dumbed down and made easy to cater to their playstyle.

And you are ingame who? Because I seen barely anyone pvpin let alone testing out combat speed.

A confirmation from a dev would be best right now. I have killed many people and none have ran from me from what I can remember the movement is hindered.

As far as any other game, Mortal Online slows down your walk speed in combat but as far as sprinting you can sprint faster with your weapon out. This is to keep players from running. As is the stamina drain/regen with lower health.

Personally I don't care as long as its even. I don't want people weighted down so that people can run easily and I don't want to be handed the kill, so to speak.

It was already posted by Xsyon, but many threads were lost in the forum rollback. He posted it in a Combat Changes thread and a patch note thread. It said something like "Players can now run in each direction at normal speed while in combat-mode". I don't remember the exact quote.

In general, it needs to be even with regard to run/sprint speed. But... If a weapon is pulled out, sprint speed should be reduced by a small percentage. If you swing a weapon while sprinting, more stamina should used used for that swing. Xyson also said that some of these ideas may be implemented in order to test, among some other ideas thrown around about skills that lower stamina use while sprinting, etc.

There are just too many situations where simply being able to run faster than another while they are in "combat-mode" would break PvP. People who enjoy PvP would exploit it. I love PvP, but if something allowed me to get away on a whim, I'd do it. It would be a game where anyone not getting the first hit in would just run away. Fortunately, it seems that Jordi can see this, too.

Jadzia

05-03-2010, 01:28 PM

TheMap wrote:

Also you say the vision is for pve and if we read the features list that we can easily see it. Well I am sorry, but I cant easily see any side of the fence. There is nothing in that features list that points this as a PVE game. If it was made for PVE they would remove the PVP all together and make it guild wars only. Its OPEN pvp for a reason. I am a murderer/pk in most pvp games I play. And this one will be no different. So please get used to the fact that other type of people would like to enjoy the game as well.
The problem is that you can only imagine 2 type of games: PvE focused and PvP focused. If that was the only choice I would choose PvP focused as well. But Xsyon is neither of them...its focused on building-crafting-exploring, what you can easily see if you read the features list. PvP is there, but Xsyon won't be a PvP game, the developers stated that many times.

Jadzia

05-03-2010, 01:38 PM

JCatano wrote:

It was already posted by Xsyon, but many threads were lost in the forum rollback. He posted it in a Combat Changes thread and a patch note thread. It said something like "Players can now run in each direction at normal speed while in combat-mode". I don't remember the exact quote.

No, he didn't say that. He said: "People can now run into every direction in combat mode". It sounds to me like it wasn't possible to run in every direction before, like you could only walk backwards, not run. If people were only able to walk forward before, then the change to be able to run forward is definitely a speed change, but if they weren't, then Xsyon only added a new direction, and hasn't changed the speed.

And its well known that the combat is under rework now, probably the disadvantage of the attacker will change from speed to stamina. But there wasn't any announcement that the original goal would have changed...the goal to make people to be able to runaway from combat if they wish to do so. So I don't understand why some people think that changing some mechanic means changing the core of the game.

JCatano

05-03-2010, 01:45 PM

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:

It was already posted by Xsyon, but many threads were lost in the forum rollback. He posted it in a Combat Changes thread and a patch note thread. It said something like "Players can now run in each direction at normal speed while in combat-mode". I don't remember the exact quote.

No, he didn't say that. He said: "People can now run into every direction in combat mode". It sounds to me like it wasn't possible to run in every direction before, like you could only walk backwards, not run. If people were only able to walk forward before, then the change to be able to run forward is definitely a speed change, but if they weren't, then Xsyon only added a new direction, and hasn't changed the speed.

And its well known that the combat is under rework now, probably the disadvantage of the attacker will change from speed to stamina. But there wasn't any announcement that the original goal would have changed...the goal to make people to be able to runaway from combat if they wish to do so. So I don't understand why some people think that changing some mechanic means changing the core of the game.

Those are the 2 same sentences. o.O

You couldn't run forward before. DDT told me in vent around 3-4 weeks ago. Now, you can.

And I already told you about the person who said they could now catch up to people about 50% of the time, and that it came down to stamina management. He wasn't able to before.

Kitsume

05-03-2010, 01:49 PM

Just to make it clear, I'm not against open PvP. I'm against the random PK/Gank play style.

I think PvP plays an important role in a game. But there needs to be balance, not the PK/Gankers having all the advantages.

As for running away, I would like to see stamina, health and running skill all be a factor in how easily one can escape combat. I'm not asking for a free escape ticket, but if I choose to run away from the first blow without entering combat myself, then I should have a better than average chance of succeeding. This would be due to the attacker using stamina to start the attack.

But if I choose to fight back (or initiate the attack), then getting away when my health and stamina gets low should be harder to do.

What I would like to see in Xsyon is limits to the random PK/Griefing style of PvP, to have fights over resources and area. I want the ability to avoid a fight if I wish to do so, and the same for anyone else who wants to avoid a fight.

Okie

05-03-2010, 01:54 PM

Man rage weapons like bows cant come soon enough so when scrubs run it wont matter

Jadzia

05-03-2010, 01:57 PM

JCatano wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:

It was already posted by Xsyon, but many threads were lost in the forum rollback. He posted it in a Combat Changes thread and a patch note thread. It said something like "Players can now run in each direction at normal speed while in combat-mode". I don't remember the exact quote.

No, he didn't say that. He said: "People can now run into every direction in combat mode". It sounds to me like it wasn't possible to run in every direction before, like you could only walk backwards, not run. If people were only able to walk forward before, then the change to be able to run forward is definitely a speed change, but if they weren't, then Xsyon only added a new direction, and hasn't changed the speed.

And its well known that the combat is under rework now, probably the disadvantage of the attacker will change from speed to stamina. But there wasn't any announcement that the original goal would have changed...the goal to make people to be able to runaway from combat if they wish to do so. So I don't understand why some people think that changing some mechanic means changing the core of the game.

Those are the 2 same sentences. o.O

You couldn't run forward before. DDT told me in vent around 3-4 weeks ago. Now, you can.

And I already told you about the person who said they could now catch up to people about 50% of the time, and that it came down to stamina management. He wasn't able to before.
Its not the same, you put the words "at normal speed" into Xsyon sentence, which makes it totally different.
And since combat is broken right now players' experience is limited to this broken combat, we can't conclude anything of it.

Kitsume

05-03-2010, 02:08 PM

Okie wrote:

Man rage weapons like bows cant come soon enough so when scrubs run it wont matter

I have a feeling you're going to be disappointed. We have no idea how ranged weapons will work, but if they do them right, you will need to stand still to aim properly, or suffer a huge penalty for firing while moving. While you are firing, your target continues to get farther away, thus reducing your chances to hit.

Since melee weapon damage is not high, I don't expect bows and arrows to hit any harder.

JCatano

05-03-2010, 02:11 PM

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:

It was already posted by Xsyon, but many threads were lost in the forum rollback. He posted it in a Combat Changes thread and a patch note thread. It said something like "Players can now run in each direction at normal speed while in combat-mode". I don't remember the exact quote.

No, he didn't say that. He said: "People can now run into every direction in combat mode". It sounds to me like it wasn't possible to run in every direction before, like you could only walk backwards, not run. If people were only able to walk forward before, then the change to be able to run forward is definitely a speed change, but if they weren't, then Xsyon only added a new direction, and hasn't changed the speed.

And its well known that the combat is under rework now, probably the disadvantage of the attacker will change from speed to stamina. But there wasn't any announcement that the original goal would have changed...the goal to make people to be able to runaway from combat if they wish to do so. So I don't understand why some people think that changing some mechanic means changing the core of the game.

Those are the 2 same sentences. o.O

You couldn't run forward before. DDT told me in vent around 3-4 weeks ago. Now, you can.

And I already told you about the person who said they could now catch up to people about 50% of the time, and that it came down to stamina management. He wasn't able to before.
Its not the same, you put the words "at normal speed" into Xsyon sentence, which makes it totally different.
And since combat is broken right now players' experience is limited to this broken combat, we can't conclude anything of it.

Oh jeezus... Picky, picky.

You could not run forward in combat-mode before. You can now.

Previously, it was "impossible" (DDT quote) to catch a player while being in combat-mode. According to the tester posting in the Combat Changes threads, it is now possible to catch players while in combat-mode.

What part of "you couldn't catch someone before, but now you can" is hard to understand?

JCatano

05-03-2010, 02:15 PM

Kitsume wrote:

Just to make it clear, I'm not against open PvP. I'm against the random PK/Gank play style.

I think PvP plays an important role in a game. But there needs to be balance, not the PK/Gankers having all the advantages.

As for running away, I would like to see stamina, health and running skill all be a factor in how easily one can escape combat. I'm not asking for a free escape ticket, but if I choose to run away from the first blow without entering combat myself, then I should have a better than average chance of succeeding. This would be due to the attacker using stamina to start the attack.

But if I choose to fight back (or initiate the attack), then getting away when my health and stamina gets low should be harder to do.

What I would like to see in Xsyon is limits to the random PK/Griefing style of PvP, to have fights over resources and area. I want the ability to avoid a fight if I wish to do so, and the same for anyone else who wants to avoid a fight.

While I agree with this for the most part, whatever happened to simply using awareness?

In DF, there are "those" people who will complain and whine about being PK'd while mining, but half the time you find out they weren't even paying attention. Playing music in DF is a big no-no, because you want to be able to hear footsteps. You need to stop mining every so often to take a look around you. If you're crafting, don't stick your head into a corner or any place where someone can box you in. Things like that.

Why does it seem that a certain group of people don't want to use their awareness?

I already mentioned how PvP'ers would exploit the mechanic of just being able to successfully run away after a hit or two. It can't be a free meal ticket.

Kitsume

05-03-2010, 02:15 PM

JCatano wrote:

What part of "you couldn't catch someone before, but now you can" is hard to understand?

So you're saying you run faster while in combat mode than out? If two players are running the same speed, then you should not be able to catch up. If one is attacking use stamina, the other just running, wouldn't the attacker drain their stamina first?

JCatano

05-03-2010, 02:25 PM

Kitsume wrote:

JCatano wrote:

What part of "you couldn't catch someone before, but now you can" is hard to understand?

So you're saying you run faster while in combat mode than out? If two players are running the same speed, then you should not be able to catch up. If one is attacking use stamina, the other just running, wouldn't the attacker drain their stamina first?

I'm just telling you what was said by DDT in vent and in the Combat Changes thread by Xsyon and the other tester. The latter mentioned that it came down to stamina management.

I gave suggestions of sprint (not run) speed being slightly reduced while a weapon is unsheathed and more stamina usage per swing if sprinting. Having a weapon unsheathed would put you in "combat-mode". Changing from combat-mode to normal-mode by sheathing the weapon would allow you to sprint at 100% speed, but it wouldn't take affect until 1-2 seconds later. That would keep people from macroing an unsheathe/attack/sheathe action in order to keep up with people.

I also threw a few ideas out there that had to do with a skill lowering stamina usage while sprinting and health affecting speed, etc. He said he'd possibly try some of the ideas a few of us talked about.

Okie

05-03-2010, 02:33 PM

Kitsume wrote:

Okie wrote:

Man rage weapons like bows cant come soon enough so when scrubs run it wont matter

I have a feeling you're going to be disappointed. We have no idea how ranged weapons will work, but if they do them right, you will need to stand still to aim properly, or suffer a huge penalty for firing while moving. While you are firing, your target continues to get farther away, thus reducing your chances to hit.

Since melee weapon damage is not high, I don't expect bows and arrows to hit any harder.

I know but i can hope and pray lol I was actually gunna edit this. This game probly isnt for me but I already pre ordered so o well. Who knowes this game might bring out my inner carebear.

Kitsume

05-03-2010, 02:57 PM

JCatano wrote:
Why does it seem that a certain group of people don't want to use their awareness?

I already mentioned how PvP'ers would exploit the mechanic of just being able to successfully run away after a hit or two. It can't be a free meal ticket.

I actually agree, Situational Awareness (SA) should be a factor, giving most anyone a very good chance for avoiding combat. If a player is not paying attention in a dangerous area, they deserve to be jumped. But you can't be 100% SA all the time either.

All I'm asking for a chance to escape when attacked, but not a guarantee. If someone enters combat, then their chances should reduce, based on their current health, stamina, skills, strategy, etc. If one player is at 25% and the other is at 60% health, the 25% one should have very little chance of escaping. A player may be able to use terrain elements to improve those chances (trees, rocks, water). But one should not get a free escape, but have a chance to escape pursuit. The greater the disparity between combatants, there should be a lesser of a chance to get away.

Someone who initiates combat should already used some stamina, but if they landed a successful hit, then their opponent will have lost some heath. If the defender runs right then, then they have the stamina advantage, but if they take too many hits, the attacker will have the health advantage. There should come a point where health makes a difference in run speed, so if the attacker does enough damage, then their opponent can't out run them.

JCatano

05-03-2010, 03:02 PM

Kitsume wrote:

JCatano wrote:
Why does it seem that a certain group of people don't want to use their awareness?

I already mentioned how PvP'ers would exploit the mechanic of just being able to successfully run away after a hit or two. It can't be a free meal ticket.

I actually agree, Situational Awareness (SA) should be a factor, giving most anyone a very good chance for avoiding combat. If a player is not paying attention in a dangerous area, they deserve to be jumped. But you can't be 100% SA all the time either.

All I'm asking for a chance to escape when attacked, but not a guarantee. If someone enters combat, then their chances should reduce, based on their current health, stamina, skills, strategy, etc. If one player is at 25% and the other is at 60% health, the 25% one should have very little chance of escaping. A player may be able to use terrain elements to improve those chances (trees, rocks, water). But one should not get a free escape, but have a chance to escape pursuit. The greater the disparity between combatants, there should be a lesser of a chance to get away.

Someone who initiates combat should already used some stamina, but if they landed a successful hit, then their opponent will have lost some heath. If the defender runs right then, then they have the stamina advantage, but if they take too many hits, the attacker will have the health advantage. There should come a point where health makes a difference in run speed, so if the attacker does enough damage, then their opponent can't out run them.

It already seems to work like that in a way. The tester said he was now able to catch people "50% of the time", and it came down to managing stamina.

You can... Some just choose not to be. AFK, AFK macroers, etc. It would be better to say that being aware 100% of the time doesn't mean 100% success in getting away.

VowOfSilence

05-03-2010, 06:51 PM

JCatano wrote:

Why does it seem that a certain group of people don't want to use their awareness?

Because it's the most boring thing ever?

VowOfSilence

05-03-2010, 06:54 PM

Kunra wrote:
Icarus announced a "restructuring" of the entire company(corporate speak for "we canned alot of folks). "restructuring" also is synonomis with Chapter 11.

Most rumors have the staff loss at 80% of all staff. Officially, they have stated they "downsized" to a total of 28 Devs.

Geez, i just read the thread and it really sounds bad for Fallen Earth... Didn't expect that at all. Anyway, i doubt PvP had anything to do with it.

necoo

05-03-2010, 07:15 PM

VowOfSilence wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Why does it seem that a certain group of people don't want to use their awareness?

Because it's the most boring thing ever?

if people don't pay attention then they should be jumped and looted and all that... just because it is boring doesn't mean that they should just sit back and relax, doing so in a world such as Xsyon is a one way ticket to hell.

dragonstripes

05-03-2010, 08:59 PM

At 700+ replies in a month with no conclusive answer, I (unofficially) officially declare this topic to be that of beating a dead horse. In another thread a good suggestion was made: Let's see what the devs actually do with this system in-game before we speculate it to death.

Everyday I sign in here there's another 10+ posts :-P

Dominus

05-03-2010, 09:01 PM

Carebears are gonna die and get looted. That's for certain.

necoo

05-03-2010, 11:55 PM

Dominus wrote:

Carebears are gonna die and get looted. That's for certain.
yep and ill be the one to do it :laugh:

Okie

05-04-2010, 12:04 AM

me ganking a tall asian crafter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQTp5BL5MMU

jessebfox

05-04-2010, 05:18 AM

You can get all the warning signs you like, but you will see in the end. Ill admitted that qqing got the combat mode changed (for the better so who really cares?), but what the devs want in the end is obvious. But the people who think this will be a 'jump everyone and get their lewt' game will see in the end after the tweaks are in, this won't be a game of ganking.

And for the record, those questions did not turn out how *I* want them. In a perfect game I would have preferred much different answers. But it made me decide to pin my hopes on a good open pvp game on Mortal. if because it's alpha (disguised as beta) caused you to think Xsyon is the next coming of pvp, I will let your hopes be dashed on their own from here on in. It just ain't gonna be that game. All I see here is qqing from people wanting it to be a game it won't be. Whatever it turns out to be in the end, I will adjust to it and do well. My question to them was just to get an idea of what their vision was.

As it stands, I am still hoping MO actually turns out well on release/a bit after release, and Xsyon is a totally different kind of game.

jessebfox

05-04-2010, 05:26 AM

JCatano wrote:

Why does it seem that a certain group of people don't want to use their awareness?

I already mentioned how PvP'ers would exploit the mechanic of just being able to successfully run away after a hit or two. It can't be a free meal ticket.[/quote]

It seems from the questions I asked, they will have to be somewhat aware. Keep in mind, though, that in Xsyon sneaking = invis, so you are gonna have to react quick when you get jumped even if aware.

It also seems they want it so if you engage in pvp, you can't quickly get away. I dropped a suggestion in the combat suggestions forum regarding this, because I think it would be nice to lock someone in (for the most part) to a fight once they decide to fight, and I think it fits in line with the devs' goals.

Jadzia

05-04-2010, 05:37 AM

JCatano wrote:

Why does it seem that a certain group of people don't want to use their awareness?

I answered this question once, but will do it again. "Awareness" means that if you don't want to fight, you will have to run when you see someone's coming. In this way there is no interaction between players, people will just runaway from everyone, you can't get to know new people if you have to be that suspicious. If someone is coming and talking friendly meanwhile, that won't help either, may happen that when he reach you he starts to attack. Thats why I don't like the argument of 'be aware', it ruins the opportunity of meeting new people, and gives a very suspicious atmosphere to the game.

jessebfox wrote:

It also seems they want it so if you engage in pvp, you can't quickly get away. I dropped a suggestion in the combat suggestions forum regarding this, because I think it would be nice to lock someone in (for the most part) to a fight once they decide to fight, and I think it fits in line with the devs' goals.
Totally agree with that, if someone decided to fight he shouldn't be able to getaway from it later when he sees himself loosing.

Blue Pig

05-04-2010, 08:33 AM

Illmaculate wrote:

Combat mode speed has since been changed so that you move at the SAME speed as out of it.

So much misinformation is being spread by people who want so dearly for the combat mechanics to be dumbed down and made easy to cater to their playstyle.

And the developers have said they will change mechanics based on feedback from the community. As some so dearly want PvP to be limited by mechanics, it appears you want so dearly for the mechanics to allow for more PvP. Hence we have the forums for discussion and I imagine the game will go through several "PvP test stages".

I just want to get in to see how I feel about it. I don't mind "realistic/meaningful PvP with realistic/meaningful consequences". As for myself, I so dearly want the PvP to be like it was in The Eternal City while Scott still owned it. No killing without a good roleplaying reason ("I want to kill" not being a good enough reason).

That game actually had an early warning system, if you will. You "saw" a player "approach" you when they were getting ready to either engage in combat or try to steal something from you. You could then "withdraw" and "try" to get away if you didn't want to fight. Why not have a mechanic in this game where a player has to enter a "combat" area around you before he can engage you? And you can see the player doing that. Probably not realistic of me to suggest that since the game mechanics may not need that or won't accomodate that.

I noticed "awareness" has been brought up recently. Perhaps people should be "aware" of the reason they want to kill someone in the first place.

There are a lot of PvP games out there. It would be nice to see a PvP game that's different, one where you actually need a good reason to kill someone. And if you don't have a good reason then there should be hell to pay. Roleplay, ropleplay.

Blue Pig

05-04-2010, 08:51 AM

Okie wrote:

Man rage weapons like bows cant come soon enough so when scrubs run it wont matter

I think this is an example of the type of player the game doesn't need. Mindless, violent and murderous.

Iron Maiden

05-04-2010, 08:53 AM

Blue Pig wrote:

Okie wrote:

Man rage weapons like bows cant come soon enough so when scrubs run it wont matter

I think this is an example of the type of player the game doesn't need. Mindless, violent and murderous.

That's your own opinion, notice "game","violent", "murderous" in one sentence doesn't sound so bad to me :)

Blue Pig

05-04-2010, 09:31 AM

Iron Maiden wrote:

Blue Pig wrote:

Okie wrote:

Man rage weapons like bows cant come soon enough so when scrubs run it wont matter

I think this is an example of the type of player the game doesn't need. Mindless, violent and murderous.

That's your own opinion, notice "game","violent", "murderous" in one sentence doesn't sound so bad to me :)

When he says "scrubs" he's not referring to the character, he's referring to the actual player behind the character. That's insulting and that's scary.

And if by some chance it wasn't a Freudian slip, then he enjoys killing helpless characters (scrubs). That's my definition of a mindless player (or child as the case may be).

You didn't mention the word "mindless". Do you think the game should be mindless? Because most PvP games on the market are mindless gankfests. And I don't like mindless gankfests. I'd rather think about the consequences of my actions. I hope the game turns out to be a "thoughtful" game rather than a "mindless" one.

Iron Maiden

05-04-2010, 09:35 AM

Most PvP'ers have a reason to kill someone, may it be loot they want/or resources - PvP shouldn't be mindless but if we have something against the clan (speaking for myself) i'll kill them a few times, mayb leave their loot on them.

In the end it's all about the fun, it's a game. When he says "scrubs" he's speaking about how they can't play the PvP aspect in the game for their lives. Which = scrubs - same could be said about a PvP'er for crafting.

Blue Pig

05-04-2010, 09:40 AM

Iron Maiden wrote:

Most PvP'ers have a reason to kill someone, may it be loot they want/or resources - PvP shouldn't be mindless but if we have something against the clan (speaking for myself) i'll kill them a few times, mayb leave their loot on them.

In the end it's all about the fun, it's a game. When he says "scrubs" he's speaking about how they can't play the PvP aspect in the game for their lives. Which = scrubs - same could be said about a PvP'er for crafting.

For me, thinking is fun.

Iron Maiden

05-04-2010, 09:42 AM

Lol and of course PvP'ing has nothing to do with thought?

Jadzia

05-04-2010, 09:50 AM

Iron Maiden wrote:

Lol and of course PvP'ing has nothing to do with thought?
I played Perfect World, which is a game with FFA PvP. There were players who stood by a teleportation portal, and killed the people who were arriving there, when they were on the loading screen lol. In that game you don't get any loot form white names, no reputation, they gained absolutely nothing. The teleportation portal was the entrance of a city, and when you were killed you respawned in that very city, lol. Thats what I call mindless PKing. No reward, no competition, no goal, its ridiculous. The sad thing is when these PKers brag later to their friends that how many people they killed. Pathetic.

Iron Maiden

05-04-2010, 09:57 AM

That's called griefing, and that sounds like a horrible flaw in the game itself - That type of PvP is usually done for lolz/or hate tells, i can understand it but it has to be done properly.

Killing people in a loading screen is just dumb, i'm sure that's the only way those people could get kills in general. I'm not a carebear, but i do understand the difference between GOOD pvp and griefing. I like both but if this game is anti grief, than so be it i'll put my effort into planned PvP - but i don't want a slown down Pvp mode to have to do that.

EDIT; Seriously this isn't a troll i'm trying to help you, the best way to have a griefer leave you alone is stand still and don't reply to them - nobody likes killing a naked inactive player, if you decide to PM them hate tells and tell them what a "asshole" they are.. Well that just makes it worse, don't feed them.

Jadzia

05-04-2010, 09:59 AM

Illmaculate wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

Iron Maiden wrote:

Lol and of course PvP'ing has nothing to do with thought?
I played Perfect World, which is a game with FFA PvP. There were players who stood by a teleportation portal, and killed the people who were arriving there, when they were on the loading screen lol. In that game you don't get any loot form white names, no reputation, they gained absolutely nothing. The teleportation portal was the entrance of a city, and when you were killed you respawned in that very city, lol. Thats what I call mindless PKing. No reward, no competition, no goal, its ridiculous. The sad thing is when these PKers brag later to their friends that how many people they killed. Pathetic.

You're still crying about it. Obviously, they did what they set out to do.
Why would I cry ? I lost nothing, it was nothing but ridiculous lol. The sad thing is that some people consider this as fun, but its up to them if they can't find anything better to do. I gave an example of mindless Pking, thats all.

Jadzia

05-04-2010, 10:03 AM

Iron Maiden wrote:

That's called griefing, and that sounds like a horrible flaw in the game itself - That type of PvP is usually done for lolz/or hate tells, i can understand it but it has to be done properly.

Killing people in a loading screen is just dumb, i'm sure that's the only way those people could get kills in general. I'm not a carebear, but i do understand the difference between GOOD pvp and griefing. I like both but if this game is anti grief, than so be it i'll put my effort into planned PvP - but i don't want a slown down Pvp mode to have to do that.

EDIT; Seriously this isn't a troll i'm trying to help you, the best way to have a griefer leave you alone is stand still and don't reply to them - nobody likes killing a naked inactive player, if you decide to PM them hate tells and tell them what a "asshole" they are.. Well that just makes it worse, don't feed them.
I agree with everything you said, and finding a better way to keep the game griefer-free than slow combat mode is something what all of us want, I'm sure.

Btw those PKers killed everyone there, unknown random people who teleported to that town. There wasn't hate talk, I've never seen those guys before, they were just having some odd fun.

Blue Pig

05-04-2010, 10:15 AM

Iron Maiden wrote:

Lol and of course PvP'ing has nothing to do with thought?

It could, it could not. It depends on the mechanics of the game.

I'd rather this not be the type of game where it's easy to pull out a weapon and kill someone. That requires no thought whatsoever. That just requires one to be mindless.

It requires "just" a tad more thought to ask a character for water, or to speak of trade rather than killing first and looting.

Killing first and looting. How long will that be "fun"?

Establishing trade by speaking to other characters (as opposed to killing them), building a town, roads, and protecting the infrastructure, these require thought. Pulling out a weapon and killing someone requires no thought.

In fact, I'd like for this game to have permadeath in it. Then killing will mean something. If killing means nothing, it's much easier to kill out of boredom or mindlessness and the game becomes just another hack and slash. There are plenty of those already.

You want to play hardcore? Let's play hardcore :lol: I ask that permadeath be in the game.

Either have true permadeath, or you can come close to it by having a limited number of times you can "come back". Say three times a month (if you play a certain amount of time--actually in game, or say you have to pray to some god or perform some lengthy ritual to obtain a pass back to life to use when killed). If you die a fourth time in a month (or without that "pass" back to life), your character is gone forever.

Would you like that kind of a game? I would.

The adrenaline rush is much more intense knowing that if you die, that's it. The year you put into your character is gone. In fact, just knowing you "could" be killed "forever" is a rush. It would make the game much more intense and it would require some actual thought. A lot more thought than if you knew you'd just come back if you were killed.

And it would require awareness. You'd have to be aware that you could be permakilled, and you'd have to be very aware of why you want to possibly permakill someone else (and possibly risk being permakilled yourself).

If you want fun, let's raise the stakes B)

Blue Pig

05-04-2010, 10:24 AM

Iron Maiden wrote:

That's called griefing, and that sounds like a horrible flaw in the game itself - That type of PvP is usually done for lolz/or hate tells, i can understand it but it has to be done properly.

Killing people in a loading screen is just dumb, i'm sure that's the only way those people could get kills in general. I'm not a carebear, but i do understand the difference between GOOD pvp and griefing. I like both but if this game is anti grief, than so be it i'll put my effort into planned PvP - but i don't want a slown down Pvp mode to have to do that.

EDIT; Seriously this isn't a troll i'm trying to help you, the best way to have a griefer leave you alone is stand still and don't reply to them - nobody likes killing a naked inactive player, if you decide to PM them hate tells and tell them what a "asshole" they are.. Well that just makes it worse, don't feed them.

In those types of games, yes. I would agree that standing still and not replying is much better than sending a hate tell. However, an even better response is to send a tell and say "Hi, how are you? What's up in the game today? How do you like it so far?" And just proceed to chat amiably if chat continues. That will either make a friend or piss them off even more when they see you aren't in the least upset by being killed (or some such).

I've done that in Darkfall a few times (I'm a new player there) and have made two friends that way.

Iron Maiden

05-04-2010, 10:27 AM

Agreed, usually when i found people that had a good laugh after i killed them i would leave them alone. It's all how you play your cards, it's your tribes choice to be nice to PvP tribes and have good rep with them - you won't get attacked as much that's for sure.

If your tribe is filled with a bunch of raging freaks that cry after getting killed once or twice it will make it more enjoyable for that PvP'er to come back again and again, also be safe what you have to lose, if you carry alot on you and die people take that to note and will come back for pure loot/resources.

JCatano

05-04-2010, 10:34 AM

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:
[quote]
Why does it seem that a certain group of people don't want to use their awareness?

I answered this question once, but will do it again. "Awareness" means that if you don't want to fight, you will have to run when you see someone's coming. In this way there is no interaction between players, people will just runaway from everyone, you can't get to know new people if you have to be that suspicious. If someone is coming and talking friendly meanwhile, that won't help either, may happen that when he reach you he starts to attack. Thats why I don't like the argument of 'be aware', it ruins the opportunity of meeting new people, and gives a very suspicious atmosphere to the game.

We don't all play to "meet" people. That just happens. The worst case scenario jibberish is getting old. If it was always as you say, I wouldn't have ever randomly grouped with people in DF to PvE/PvP. But, guess what? It happens, and works out just fine.

In saying that... Remove the daisies from your eyes and prepare to be aware in Xsyon. You better hope that wildlife doesn't roam around and "PK", but I'm sure you'll say that's ok... :P

necoo

05-04-2010, 10:38 AM

Blue Pig wrote:

Iron Maiden wrote:

Lol and of course PvP'ing has nothing to do with thought?

It could, it could not. It depends on the mechanics of the game.

I'd rather this not be the type of game where it's easy to pull out a weapon and kill someone. That requires no thought whatsoever. That just requires one to be mindless.

It requires "just" a tad more thought to ask a character for water, or to speak of trade rather than killing first and looting.

Killing first and looting. How long will that be "fun"?

Establishing trade by speaking to other characters (as opposed to killing them), building a town, roads, and protecting the infrastructure, these require thought. Pulling out a weapon and killing someone requires no thought.

In fact, I'd like for this game to have permadeath in it. Then killing will mean something. If killing means nothing, it's much easier to kill out of boredom or mindlessness and the game becomes just another hack and slash. There are plenty of those already.

You want to play hardcore? Let's play hardcore :lol: I ask that permadeath be in the game.

Either have true permadeath, or you can come close to it by having a limited number of times you can "come back". Say three times a month (if you play a certain amount of time--actually in game, or say you have to pray to some god or perform some lengthy ritual to obtain a pass back to life to use when killed). If you die a fourth time in a month (or without that "pass" back to life), your character is gone forever.

Would you like that kind of a game? I would.

The adrenaline rush is much more intense knowing that if you die, that's it. The year you put into your character is gone. In fact, just knowing you "could" be killed "forever" is a rush. It would make the game much more intense and it would require some actual thought. A lot more thought than if you knew you'd just come back if you were killed.

And it would require awareness. You'd have to be aware that you could be permakilled, and you'd have to be very aware of why you want to possibly permakill someone else (and possibly risk being permakilled yourself).

If you want fun, let's raise the stakes B)
there is already a game with permadeath similar to this example called face of mankind... in it you have to buy with in game money "clones" of yourself so that if you die and resurrect in those clones.. but once you run out that is it and you die. also if you chose to be evil after a certin point your clones will be locked down so that you cannot revive if you die then then you die permanently...

however i didn't really like that game as all it did was throw you into the game without even the slightest degree of what to do or even can do. there were no npcs to kill, you can't gather your own materials you have to hire miners to do it and you can't even get to the mines to do it yourself and the game is completely and utterly pvp only.

Blue Pig

05-04-2010, 10:58 AM

necoo wrote:

Blue Pig wrote:

Iron Maiden wrote:

Lol and of course PvP'ing has nothing to do with thought?

It could, it could not. It depends on the mechanics of the game.

I'd rather this not be the type of game where it's easy to pull out a weapon and kill someone. That requires no thought whatsoever. That just requires one to be mindless.

It requires "just" a tad more thought to ask a character for water, or to speak of trade rather than killing first and looting.

Killing first and looting. How long will that be "fun"?

Establishing trade by speaking to other characters (as opposed to killing them), building a town, roads, and protecting the infrastructure, these require thought. Pulling out a weapon and killing someone requires no thought.

In fact, I'd like for this game to have permadeath in it. Then killing will mean something. If killing means nothing, it's much easier to kill out of boredom or mindlessness and the game becomes just another hack and slash. There are plenty of those already.

You want to play hardcore? Let's play hardcore :lol: I ask that permadeath be in the game.

Either have true permadeath, or you can come close to it by having a limited number of times you can "come back". Say three times a month (if you play a certain amount of time--actually in game, or say you have to pray to some god or perform some lengthy ritual to obtain a pass back to life to use when killed). If you die a fourth time in a month (or without that "pass" back to life), your character is gone forever.

Would you like that kind of a game? I would.

The adrenaline rush is much more intense knowing that if you die, that's it. The year you put into your character is gone. In fact, just knowing you "could" be killed "forever" is a rush. It would make the game much more intense and it would require some actual thought. A lot more thought than if you knew you'd just come back if you were killed.

And it would require awareness. You'd have to be aware that you could be permakilled, and you'd have to be very aware of why you want to possibly permakill someone else (and possibly risk being permakilled yourself).

If you want fun, let's raise the stakes B)
there is already a game with permadeath similar to this example called face of mankind... in it you have to buy with in game money "clones" of yourself so that if you die and resurrect in those clones.. but once you run out that is it and you die. also if you chose to be evil after a certin point your clones will be locked down so that you cannot revive if you die then then you die permanently...

however i didn't really like that game as all it did was throw you into the game without even the slightest degree of what to do or even can do. there were no npcs to kill, you can't gather your own materials you have to hire miners to do it and you can't even get to the mines to do it yourself and the game is completely and utterly pvp only.

Do you think something like that kind of permadeath you describe would work for Xsyon, or not? I'm not familiar with the Xsyon engine (I'm not in the game).

I ask because after the towns and defenses are set up there will doubtless be players who will wish to play the role of bandits and even (gasp) murderers.

As for permadeath (I realize the chances of it being in this game are very slim and none) you could have the more peaceful characters (no murders committed) resurrect endlessly (or at least without much ado), while having fighter types resurrect on some sort of sliding scale (that is, the more evil the character, the more that character needs "something" to resurrect).

Just a thought.

Jadzia

05-04-2010, 11:18 AM

JCatano wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:
[quote]
Why does it seem that a certain group of people don't want to use their awareness?

I answered this question once, but will do it again. "Awareness" means that if you don't want to fight, you will have to run when you see someone's coming. In this way there is no interaction between players, people will just runaway from everyone, you can't get to know new people if you have to be that suspicious. If someone is coming and talking friendly meanwhile, that won't help either, may happen that when he reach you he starts to attack. Thats why I don't like the argument of 'be aware', it ruins the opportunity of meeting new people, and gives a very suspicious atmosphere to the game.

We don't all play to "meet" people. That just happens. The worst case scenario jibberish is getting old. If it was always as you say, I wouldn't have ever randomly grouped with people in DF to PvE/PvP. But, guess what? It happens, and works out just fine.

In saying that... Remove the daisies from your eyes and prepare to be aware in Xsyon. You better hope that wildlife doesn't roam around and "PK", but I'm sure you'll say that's ok... :P
Perhaps you don't play to meet people, but I do...thats the point of playing an MMO for me. Otherwise I would just play single player games.

And I'm touched by your caring thoughts and advices, but thanks, I'm a big girl and I can take care of myself well enough :)

necoo

05-04-2010, 03:17 PM

Blue Pig wrote:

necoo wrote:

Blue Pig wrote:

Iron Maiden wrote:

Lol and of course PvP'ing has nothing to do with thought?

It could, it could not. It depends on the mechanics of the game.

I'd rather this not be the type of game where it's easy to pull out a weapon and kill someone. That requires no thought whatsoever. That just requires one to be mindless.

It requires "just" a tad more thought to ask a character for water, or to speak of trade rather than killing first and looting.

Killing first and looting. How long will that be "fun"?

Establishing trade by speaking to other characters (as opposed to killing them), building a town, roads, and protecting the infrastructure, these require thought. Pulling out a weapon and killing someone requires no thought.

In fact, I'd like for this game to have permadeath in it. Then killing will mean something. If killing means nothing, it's much easier to kill out of boredom or mindlessness and the game becomes just another hack and slash. There are plenty of those already.

You want to play hardcore? Let's play hardcore :lol: I ask that permadeath be in the game.

Either have true permadeath, or you can come close to it by having a limited number of times you can "come back". Say three times a month (if you play a certain amount of time--actually in game, or say you have to pray to some god or perform some lengthy ritual to obtain a pass back to life to use when killed). If you die a fourth time in a month (or without that "pass" back to life), your character is gone forever.

Would you like that kind of a game? I would.

The adrenaline rush is much more intense knowing that if you die, that's it. The year you put into your character is gone. In fact, just knowing you "could" be killed "forever" is a rush. It would make the game much more intense and it would require some actual thought. A lot more thought than if you knew you'd just come back if you were killed.

And it would require awareness. You'd have to be aware that you could be permakilled, and you'd have to be very aware of why you want to possibly permakill someone else (and possibly risk being permakilled yourself).

If you want fun, let's raise the stakes B)
there is already a game with permadeath similar to this example called face of mankind... in it you have to buy with in game money "clones" of yourself so that if you die and resurrect in those clones.. but once you run out that is it and you die. also if you chose to be evil after a certin point your clones will be locked down so that you cannot revive if you die then then you die permanently...

however i didn't really like that game as all it did was throw you into the game without even the slightest degree of what to do or even can do. there were no npcs to kill, you can't gather your own materials you have to hire miners to do it and you can't even get to the mines to do it yourself and the game is completely and utterly pvp only.

Do you think something like that kind of permadeath you describe would work for Xsyon, or not? I'm not familiar with the Xsyon engine (I'm not in the game).

I ask because after the towns and defenses are set up there will doubtless be players who will wish to play the role of bandits and even (gasp) murderers.

As for permadeath (I realize the chances of it being in this game are very slim and none) you could have the more peaceful characters (no murders committed) resurrect endlessly (or at least without much ado), while having fighter types resurrect on some sort of sliding scale (that is, the more evil the character, the more that character needs "something" to resurrect).

Just a thought.

perma-death wouldn't be a bad option however if you ever encounter perma-death all those hours of game play go to waste... if they are going to do this then, instead of erasing your character, have some sort of heaven/hell or some other after life like thing where your character can wounder around and also have some sort of way into it besides dieing that would allow friends or guild mate to come in and help you to get out... of course if you die there you will also experience perma-death

Diocletian

05-04-2010, 03:43 PM

Its all a waste anyways, when your character dies of old age.

jessebfox

05-05-2010, 04:49 AM

Eventually, permadeath will be in the game. That is assuming that they keep the plans for that feature. Details about it have not been revealed yet, but from the little released it will be 'optional' which I am sure is completely different than what most of you are thinking in terms of perm death. Apparently it won't be your typical 'character gets deleted now start over'.

I suspect it has something to do with the 3 character slots that will eventually open up as well, but that is just speculation.

I will withhold judgement until Xsyon is released and then tweaked. The devs have spoken what they want out of the game eventually. But if you are talking hypothetical game, I would love a hard core perm death game with full open pvp and completely player made rules, but would need the ability to physically restrain other players etc. To me, that would rock. I don't think Xsyon is that kind of game or it would do well as that kind of game, however.

Okie

05-05-2010, 06:05 AM

jessebfox wrote:

I would love a hard core perm death game with full open pvp
Would be so fucking sweet id have to change my sig alot i think. The closest ive played to this is d2 hardcore mode. Made the game so exciting and dueling was intense as hell.

jessebfox

05-05-2010, 07:05 AM

Okie wrote:

jessebfox wrote:

I would love a hard core perm death game with full open pvp
Would be so fucking sweet id have to change my sig alot i think. The closest ive played to this is d2 hardcore mode. Made the game so exciting and dueling was intense as hell.

This is a bad correlation that will prolly be picked apart but: look at shooters. I can't play a respawn shooter. Everyone plays rambo. Why not charge headlong into a fight, and just jump in the open shooting everywhere?

But then play a no-respawn shooter, and generally people play more realistic and reserved, actually caring if they die. And it is so much more intense, and you get so much more a feeling of satisfaction when you wipe out an enemy team.

Okie

05-05-2010, 07:15 AM

jessebfox wrote:

Okie wrote:

jessebfox wrote:

I would love a hard core perm death game with full open pvp
Would be so fucking sweet id have to change my sig alot i think. The closest ive played to this is d2 hardcore mode. Made the game so exciting and dueling was intense as hell.

This is a bad correlation that will prolly be picked apart but: look at shooters. I can't play a respawn shooter. Everyone plays rambo. Why not charge headlong into a fight, and just jump in the open shooting everywhere?

But then play a no-respawn shooter, and generally people play more realistic and reserved, actually caring if they die. And it is so much more intense, and you get so much more a feeling of satisfaction when you wipe out an enemy team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q76H7tP7Ig&feature=related

I agree 100%

Blue Pig

05-05-2010, 08:25 AM

jessebfox wrote:

Okie wrote:

jessebfox wrote:

I would love a hard core perm death game with full open pvp
Would be so fucking sweet id have to change my sig alot i think. The closest ive played to this is d2 hardcore mode. Made the game so exciting and dueling was intense as hell.

...I can't play a respawn shooter. Everyone plays rambo. Why not charge headlong into a fight, and just jump in the open shooting everywhere?

But then play a no-respawn shooter, and generally people play more realistic and reserved, actually caring if they die. And it is so much more intense...

That's pretty much my philosophy on PvP. People should "care" if they die. It should not be meaningless PvP but "meaningful" and "thoughtful" PvP. One should be lead into thinking, "Do I really want to kill that player for the hell of it?" Because it won't be for the hell of it. You will stand a chance of being screwed royally in some way if you misjudge a situation. And so forth...

Now sure there are other styles of play and there's nothing wrong with them. Like most others, I prefer my style.

Just a thought.

Alfred

05-05-2010, 10:41 AM

Blue Pig wrote:

jessebfox wrote:

Okie wrote:

jessebfox wrote:

I would love a hard core perm death game with full open pvp
Would be so fucking sweet id have to change my sig alot i think. The closest ive played to this is d2 hardcore mode. Made the game so exciting and dueling was intense as hell.

...I can't play a respawn shooter. Everyone plays rambo. Why not charge headlong into a fight, and just jump in the open shooting everywhere?

But then play a no-respawn shooter, and generally people play more realistic and reserved, actually caring if they die. And it is so much more intense...

That's pretty much my philosophy on PvP. People should "care" if they die. It should not be meaningless PvP but "meaningful" and "thoughtful" PvP. One should be lead into thinking, "Do I really want to kill that player for the hell of it?" Because it won't be for the hell of it. You will stand a chance of being screwed royally in some way if you misjudge a situation. And so forth...

Now sure there are other styles of play and there's nothing wrong with them. Like most others, I prefer my style.

Just a thought.
http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/Youre-Awseome/2/You-Are-Cool-Pope.jpg

JCatano

05-05-2010, 01:49 PM

jessebfox wrote:

Eventually, permadeath will be in the game. That is assuming that they keep the plans for that feature. Details about it have not been revealed yet, but from the little released it will be 'optional' which I am sure is completely different than what most of you are thinking in terms of perm death. Apparently it won't be your typical 'character gets deleted now start over'.

I suspect it has something to do with the 3 character slots that will eventually open up as well, but that is just speculation.

I will withhold judgement until Xsyon is released and then tweaked. The devs have spoken what they want out of the game eventually. But if you are talking hypothetical game, I would love a hard core perm death game with full open pvp and completely player made rules, but would need the ability to physically restrain other players etc. To me, that would rock. I don't think Xsyon is that kind of game or it would do well as that kind of game, however.

Three character slots would be a horrible idea, especially after he confirmed Xsyon will be SCS. Some people choose one game over another for that feature.

Anyway... Permadeath ----> Offspring

Iron Maiden

05-05-2010, 01:51 PM

Haha 3 character slot is the worse idea in a sandbox MMO ever, brb guys gonna go make a alt to spy your clan.

Diocletian

05-05-2010, 02:57 PM

Iron Maiden wrote:

Haha 3 character slot is the worse idea in a sandbox MMO ever, brb guys gonna go make a alt to spy your clan.

Just to reiterate again, there will be one character when the game goes year 0. For the most part :ohmy:

Veldern

05-05-2010, 03:10 PM

Diocletian wrote:

Just to reiterate again, there will be one character when the game goes year 0. For the most part :ohmy:

This ^

PANZERBUNNY

05-06-2010, 10:33 AM

jessebfox wrote:

Okie wrote:

jessebfox wrote:

I would love a hard core perm death game with full open pvp
Would be so fucking sweet id have to change my sig alot i think. The closest ive played to this is d2 hardcore mode. Made the game so exciting and dueling was intense as hell.

This is a bad correlation that will prolly be picked apart but: look at shooters. I can't play a respawn shooter. Everyone plays rambo. Why not charge headlong into a fight, and just jump in the open shooting everywhere?

But then play a no-respawn shooter, and generally people play more realistic and reserved, actually caring if they die. And it is so much more intense, and you get so much more a feeling of satisfaction when you wipe out an enemy team.

This is a matter of opinion.

I cant stand CS style games anymore, because sitting around doing nothing for 3-5 minutes is pretty fucking lame. A death penalty doesn't make a game more intense. It makes it more stressful.

I've had way more TENSE matches playing bomb match in halo2/3 than I ever have in CS or any other CS style game.

Blue Pig

05-08-2010, 11:21 AM

Illmaculate has a pix and signature and Iron Maiden has a signature of the same person (goofy teeth and all). Who is this guy? I'm thinking he has to be a comedian but I never saw him before.

Haven't had cable (for TV in 11 years--just don't watch it--watch it on the treadmill in the gym lol, that's it).

jessebfox

05-10-2010, 06:23 AM

PANZERBUNNY wrote:

This is a matter of opinion.

I cant stand CS style games anymore, because sitting around doing nothing for 3-5 minutes is pretty fucking lame. A death penalty doesn't make a game more intense. It makes it more stressful.

I've had way more TENSE matches playing bomb match in halo2/3 than I ever have in CS or any other CS style game.

I guess it would be but I don't see your point. thesaurus.com puts tense as a synonymn of stressful, so not sure what you are getting at.

But of course it's all a matter of play style. Some people like getting health regens, and pickups, and running and gunning etc, and others prefer to sit and watch for 3 mins if they made a mistake and died early.

GDWhite

05-10-2010, 11:57 PM

Lawl, foreign dude.

Tense as in stressful, or maybe Intense. He's had more fun in Halo2/3 than CS style games.
Mostly agree.

Firefork

05-11-2010, 06:07 AM

Jeopardy wrote:

1. He receives a chain link attached to his ankle. Each link he wears slows his movement speed down. He can have a maximum of 10 before he can no longer walk at more than crawl speed. He can have a blacksmith remove the links, one per RL hour. However, the blacksmith would earn some form of bad reputation for each link removed and thus, also earn links after so many are removed for others. Once the player is maxed out (10 links) that player can also be captured easily and placed in jail.

Why don't we have a HUGE arrow (200 meter high)on the head that all player can see and then a sign on it with KILL ME.

Nhaa, i can't even see why you even consider to play a game that
has world pvp.

PVP games is for players that loves PVP and you should not be punished if you choose to kill an other player.
You should be rewarded for it instead.

ChildOfXsyon

05-11-2010, 07:03 AM

Illmaculate has a pix and signature and Iron Maiden has a signature of the same person (goofy teeth and all). Who is this guy? I'm thinking he has to be a comedian but I never saw him before.

Beetlejuice, he's done various spots on Howard Stern and a little cameo in Scary Movie 2, as Shorty's 'brain on drugs'.

Blue Pig

05-12-2010, 05:21 PM

Thanks ChildOfXsyon.

sisler86

05-14-2010, 06:38 AM

Firefork wrote:

Jeopardy wrote:

1. He receives a chain link attached to his ankle. Each link he wears slows his movement speed down. He can have a maximum of 10 before he can no longer walk at more than crawl speed. He can have a blacksmith remove the links, one per RL hour. However, the blacksmith would earn some form of bad reputation for each link removed and thus, also earn links after so many are removed for others. Once the player is maxed out (10 links) that player can also be captured easily and placed in jail.

Why don't we have a HUGE arrow (200 meter high)on the head that all player can see and then a sign on it with KILL ME.

Nhaa, i can't even see why you even consider to play a game that
has world pvp.

PVP games is for players that loves PVP and you should not be punished if you choose to kill an other player.
You should be rewarded for it instead.

This is not a PvP game. This is a game that includes PvP. There is a difference. From what I have read (and experienced through gameplay) so far is that this is a game that is focused more on scavenging, building, and living amongst a society and rebuilding communities. Of course fighting and war will be part of it, but that's not even close to the intent or focal point of the game.

I do agree though, I don't think that a PK should be THAT restricted for attacking someone.

necoo

05-14-2010, 12:01 PM

sisler86 wrote:

Firefork wrote:

Jeopardy wrote:

1. He receives a chain link attached to his ankle. Each link he wears slows his movement speed down. He can have a maximum of 10 before he can no longer walk at more than crawl speed. He can have a blacksmith remove the links, one per RL hour. However, the blacksmith would earn some form of bad reputation for each link removed and thus, also earn links after so many are removed for others. Once the player is maxed out (10 links) that player can also be captured easily and placed in jail.

Why don't we have a HUGE arrow (200 meter high)on the head that all player can see and then a sign on it with KILL ME.

Nhaa, i can't even see why you even consider to play a game that
has world pvp.

PVP games is for players that loves PVP and you should not be punished if you choose to kill an other player.
You should be rewarded for it instead.

This is not a PvP game. This is a game that includes PvP. There is a difference. From what I have read (and experienced through gameplay) so far is that this is a game that is focused more on scavenging, building, and living amongst a society and rebuilding communities. Of course fighting and war will be part of it, but that's not even close to the intent or focal point of the game.

I do agree though, I don't think that a PK should be THAT restricted for attacking someone.

pking should have absolutely no restrictions what so ever... it should have consequences but no restrictions. the game mechanics should act like the laws of physics, defining what you can do but not defining what you can't do... they should not be made in attempt to prevent people from playing how they like to play regardless of how they play.

sisler86

05-14-2010, 12:33 PM

necoo wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Firefork wrote:

Jeopardy wrote:

1. He receives a chain link attached to his ankle. Each link he wears slows his movement speed down. He can have a maximum of 10 before he can no longer walk at more than crawl speed. He can have a blacksmith remove the links, one per RL hour. However, the blacksmith would earn some form of bad reputation for each link removed and thus, also earn links after so many are removed for others. Once the player is maxed out (10 links) that player can also be captured easily and placed in jail.

Why don't we have a HUGE arrow (200 meter high)on the head that all player can see and then a sign on it with KILL ME.

Nhaa, i can't even see why you even consider to play a game that
has world pvp.

PVP games is for players that loves PVP and you should not be punished if you choose to kill an other player.
You should be rewarded for it instead.

This is not a PvP game. This is a game that includes PvP. There is a difference. From what I have read (and experienced through gameplay) so far is that this is a game that is focused more on scavenging, building, and living amongst a society and rebuilding communities. Of course fighting and war will be part of it, but that's not even close to the intent or focal point of the game.

I do agree though, I don't think that a PK should be THAT restricted for attacking someone.

pking should have absolutely no restrictions what so ever... it should have consequences but no restrictions. the game mechanics should act like the laws of physics, defining what you can do but not defining what you can't do... they should not be made in attempt to prevent people from playing how they like to play regardless of how they play.

I understand what you are trying to say, but respectfully disagree for these reasons:

You are using realistic terms such as the law of physics to support an unrealistic point of view. In real life, you are able to commit some sort of crime if you desire and there are consequences, but there are also restrictions in place to prevent people from doing this such as laws, rules, and so forth.

Also, there is one inconsistency with your example. The Law of Physics does indeed tell us what we can do, but everything that is left are the things that we cannot do. Those are also known as restrictions.

I would rather see restrictions preventing PK'ing rather than just consequences because even though PK'ing technically is a playstyle, people's rights end where another's begin. I do not support a playstyle (especially not one that is an extreme minority) that hinders the playstyles of others.

I'm not saying that you are totally wrong, just that I disagree. We could continue to debate this until we are blue in the face though. It's just a matter of opinion.

Diocletian

05-14-2010, 01:30 PM

There is also one fundamental difference, you can actually break laws imposed upon society. If you break a law of physics, I would give you a nobel prize in physics, i.e. physics laws cannot be easily broken like laws on society.

necoo

05-14-2010, 03:08 PM

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

Firefork wrote:

Jeopardy wrote:

1. He receives a chain link attached to his ankle. Each link he wears slows his movement speed down. He can have a maximum of 10 before he can no longer walk at more than crawl speed. He can have a blacksmith remove the links, one per RL hour. However, the blacksmith would earn some form of bad reputation for each link removed and thus, also earn links after so many are removed for others. Once the player is maxed out (10 links) that player can also be captured easily and placed in jail.

Why don't we have a HUGE arrow (200 meter high)on the head that all player can see and then a sign on it with KILL ME.

Nhaa, i can't even see why you even consider to play a game that
has world pvp.

PVP games is for players that loves PVP and you should not be punished if you choose to kill an other player.
You should be rewarded for it instead.

This is not a PvP game. This is a game that includes PvP. There is a difference. From what I have read (and experienced through gameplay) so far is that this is a game that is focused more on scavenging, building, and living amongst a society and rebuilding communities. Of course fighting and war will be part of it, but that's not even close to the intent or focal point of the game.

I do agree though, I don't think that a PK should be THAT restricted for attacking someone.

pking should have absolutely no restrictions what so ever... it should have consequences but no restrictions. the game mechanics should act like the laws of physics, defining what you can do but not defining what you can't do... they should not be made in attempt to prevent people from playing how they like to play regardless of how they play.

I understand what you are trying to say, but respectfully disagree for these reasons:

You are using realistic terms such as the law of physics to support an unrealistic point of view. In real life, you are able to commit some sort of crime if you desire and there are consequences, but there are also restrictions in place to prevent people from doing this such as laws, rules, and so forth.

Also, there is one inconsistency with your example. The Law of Physics does indeed tell us what we can do, but everything that is left are the things that we cannot do. Those are also known as restrictions.

I would rather see restrictions preventing PK'ing rather than just consequences because even though PK'ing technically is a playstyle, people's rights end where another's begin. I do not support a playstyle (especially not one that is an extreme minority) that hinders the playstyles of others.

I'm not saying that you are totally wrong, just that I disagree. We could continue to debate this until we are blue in the face though. It's just a matter of opinion.

laws and rules are not restrictions they are merely laws and rules. there is nothing in place preventing one from disobeying these laws... however when you do so you will be affected by the consequences of those actions... regardless these things were placed by the people of this world, these things are not the "game mechanics" of the world but rather something the people placed in order to make people less likely to commit such acts. similarly the game mechanics must not act like a government but rather merely define what is "physically possible" and leave the governing to the people who play the game.

as i said the laws of physics tell us what we can do, and you say that everything that is left is what we cannot do... if that is the case then we cannot be in two places at once... now of course logically we cannot be in two places at once however lets dumb it down a bit. atoms and other subatomic particles are in a constant state of flux, they are always in at least two places at once. welcome to the world of quantum physics, just because it is illogical does not mean it is impossible.