Let diplomacy and/or war settle this?

[chaosegg]

Great point made by river111 on page 5 of this thread:
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/5061-This-is-unbelievable
My own rant is on page 4... :p

I was all for a fair start, but seems technical issue have taken that away. No I dont want another wipe, I lost both my spots and dont care either way. If you lost your spot I personally think its time to turn on the combat and lets get this war rolling. We tried the peaceful landgrab 2 times now (3 if you count the second start today) and its all jacked each time. So lets turn it all on, let the big tribes that lost out go nomad until they can grief the thieves off thier plot. If they had it at 9am PST but not at the second wipe then I feel they have every right to fight for thier land now. Let let the diplomats take the lead here, either work out peaceful deals for the land or fight for it. But please, do NOT wipe and do again.
I actually agree with this solution, and I would be happy with it,
but ideally, also give us a way to remove someone else's totem.
How exactly can we do that now without just being super annoying?

In reality someone could walk up, burn your house to the ground, chop your totem down, and walk off.
But also "in reality" there is a "fair balance" deterrent, because you could have sentry/alarms (dogs, watchtowers etc), and if you kill someone, or injure them, they are likely to be permanently removed as a threat.

This is a game, not reality- yes I know.
I'm not advocating a perfectly realistic system; this is a game and that is why games have systems for dealing with things like conquest and diplomacy which are balanced to the specifics of the game boundaries (Which are by nature, limited to less-than-real).
You have to admit though, that making a game with such strong focus on realistic features not having a system to balance basic property rights is kind of strange.

[ifireallymust]

Here is my problem with that: I'm on a fairly inoffensive location (the first one was even better, no tribe would want it, all it had was a small junk pile and not much room around it). But do you think that matters once people realize they can attack people and destroy their totems? The solo players and small tribes will all be gone within a day if this happens.

[Sorakin]

Yea unfortunately the game is not ready for this kind of warfare... but this is the correct answer to the homestead/landrush problem.

[Dubanka]

all we've ever wanted.

the more you try to code a solution the more vulnerable you are to a coded problem.

Let the players loose. If you can hold it? great.
If you can't? retreat, set up shop in a more defensible/less desirable/more remote location...lick your wounds then come back and take back what was yours.

The more we try to 'code' fair, the less fair the whole process is.

[Sorakin]

all we've ever wanted.

the more you try to code a solution the more vulnerable you are to a coded problem.

Let the players loose. If you can hold it? great.
If you can't? retreat, set up shop in a more defensible/less desirable/more remote location...lick your wounds then come back and take back what was yours.

The more we try to 'code' fair, the less fair the whole process is.

Seems like the more they 'code' fair the more it benefits the solo players :(

[kaisergod]

all we've ever wanted.

the more you try to code a solution the more vulnerable you are to a coded problem.

Let the players loose. If you can hold it? great.
If you can't? retreat, set up shop in a more defensible/less desirable/more remote location...lick your wounds then come back and take back what was yours.

The more we try to 'code' fair, the less fair the whole process is.

The problem is you wont be able to setup shop and come back later. Think about the time it takes to rebuild all of your stuff, even without doing any terraforming. Meanwhile, a large tribe if they wanted to could just run around destroying everything everyone else has worked for within minutes, and theres no way to defend yourself. Even f you do manage to defend your land, are you going to stay logged on 24x7 for the rest of your time playing Xsyon? All they need to do is wait for you to logoff for sleep, work, etc and then destroy it all with no risk whatsoever to themselves. Wther its "desirable" or not wont matter. If they can destroy it, they will, simply to stop you from being able to rebuild and come after them later on.

Thats the reason safezones are there for now, because there are no defenses in yet. Once we have our defenses, then the conquering will begin.

[Sorakin]

Minutes? Siege should take hours at least. I guess with defenses it could go into the hours, but that goes back to the game not being ready yet :P

[kaisergod]

Seems like the more they 'code' fair the more it benefits the solo players :(

So let me get this right...

A tribe with 20+ members, all able to work together to build, create things for eachother, fight alongside eachother etc and a large area of land.

VS

A solo player, needing to fend for themselves, build everything themselves, make/earn eevrything themselves on a tiny little plot of land, made even tinier recently.

And youre crying about how "hard" it is for tribes.

<3 the tears.

[ifireallymust]

The problem is you wont be able to setup shop and come back later. Think about the time it takes to rebuild all of your stuff, even without doing any terraforming. Meanwhile, a large tribe if they wanted to could just run around destroying everything everyone else has worked for within minutes, and theres no way to defend yourself. Even f you do manage to defend your land, are you going to stay logged on 24x7 for the rest of your time playing Xsyon? All they need to do is wait for you to logoff for sleep, work, etc and then destroy it all with no risk whatsoever to themselves. Wther its "desirable" or not wont matter. If they can destroy it, they will, simply to stop you from being able to rebuild and come after them later on.

Thats the reason safezones are there for now, because there are no defenses in yet. Once we have our defenses, then the conquering will begin.

That's the problem. When you have the freedom to destroy whatever you want in an MMO, you have the freedom to join a zerg tribe, or not play. If solo players and small tribes have no means to defend themselves, only mega tribes will continue to exist.

[kaisergod]

Minutes? Siege should take hours at least. I guess with defenses it could go into the hours, but that goes back to the game not being ready yet :P

Hours? Sieging?

Are you playing the same game as the rest of us? We're building tents and crap to start with. There not exactly any "sieging" to be done, just toss a piece of burning wood on it and **poof** end of siege.

We're not instantly placing grand building and castles and fortresses that can be defended.

You dont seem to really get exactly where we are and whats in the game right now. All the stuff youre saying is fine LATER, when things have advanced, we have more technology, bigger areas, etc, etc but it has absolutely no bearing on what is happening right now.

[Sorakin]

Hours? Sieging?

Are you playing the same game as the rest of us? We're building tents and crap to start with. There not exactly any "sieging" to be done, just toss a piece of burning wood on it and **poof** end of siege.

We're not instantly placing grand building and castles and fortresses that can be defended.

You dont seem to really get exactly where we are and whats in the game right now. All the stuff youre saying is fine LATER, when things have advanced, we have more technology, bigger areas, etc, etc but it has absolutely no bearing on what is happening right now.

So you do want your entire tribe to go up in flames in minutes? I mean you were the one complaining about it. You can have realism or a game that works, your choice.

[Zarin]

I wouldn't mind siege weapons if...

- Took plenty of resources, time, skills to construct the weapon
- Took plenty time to damage the structures, hours to destroy it
- The weapons decay quickly and don't stick around as long as other items in game.

Putting in the tools for a tribe to get the land they wanted is a good idea, but making sure that it requires a large amount of resources and time would help prevent players mindlessly going around and destroying any tribe in sight.

[Sorakin]

So let me get this right...

A tribe with 20+ members, all able to work together to build, create things for eachother, fight alongside eachother etc and a large area of land.

VS

A solo player, needing to fend for themselves, build everything themselves, make/earn eevrything themselves on a tiny little plot of land, made even tinier recently.

And youre crying about how "hard" it is for tribes.

<3 the tears.

There is talk of being unable to harvest while encroaching (coding it fair), who has the benefit? The large tribe who has so much invested in infrastructure they can't move or the solo player who just dumps his totem wherever his current needs of resources are?

The landgrab and tribes needing a clear 220m radius, oh wait someone ran in and dropped a homestead 200m away I guess you can't have your tribe here anymore sorry. I guess the Exalted Empire of the Noble Eagles (hope thats not a real tribe name) will have to look elsewhere because "LOLUHAVEAIDS" wanted his totem in the middle of that junk pile.

If someone gets attacked and they run to their tribe/homestead... both are protected equally right now. So much for "fending" for themselves.

Oh and when they run out of resources? Guess who can pick up shop and go elsewhere? that's right, the solo player.

As a per player resource claim, the homestead is more efficient than any one tribe. 1player, 30m radius (20m now?) even with the lower estimate of 20m, if that puts tribes with 20 people, the bare minimum at 220m.... which is equal to 11 homesteads. Sorry tribes, solo wins again!

Until there is siege... until there are no safe zones... until there is a meaningful reason to be in a tribe the homestead wins on every front. And all this is because siege and defense is not in yet, so they had to protect people and "coded it fair". Well everyone is protected, but the soloers are taking this game to the bank.

**edit** I even forgot about the homestead's radius, so forget 200m away, that homestead could've been dropped 230m away, your tribe is still screwed.

[kaisergod]

So you do want your entire tribe to go up in flames in minutes? I mean you were the one complaining about it. You can have realism or a game that works, your choice.

Youre kind of missing the whole point.

You want siege weapons, warfare, etc. What are you going to do? Take some battering rams, ladders, catapults, etc to destroy a tent?

That would be just flat out retarded.

Eventually, as things evolve, all of that will be fine. But right now, we're not ata point where any of that stuff would make any sense, and we simpyl dont have the tools & technology ingame to do much more until the game expands. So this whole siege, warfare, conquering, etc thing is not, as you said yourself, the answer to homesteads & the landrush.

The only people that would benefit from any form of conquering & warfare mechanics right now are the largest tribe or 2, because they could easily destroy everyone elses stuff before they have chance to even start building much of anything BECAUSE we dont have the better technology & some form of defenses yet. Even if the other tribes managed to push the larger ones back off their land, the minute they log out the large tribe is going to come right back and destroy it without even having to fight.

The only thing this would be an answer to is "how can the largest couple of tribes completely ruin the entire game in a day or 2?"

[Sorakin]

Kaiser I think you are taking a different definition of siege. You don't need catapults and battering rams to "Siege" something.

Siege: the action of an armed force that surrounds a fortified place and isolates it while continuing to attack
Siege: Military blockade of a city or fortification, designed to force it to surrender.

Nothing is needed except allowing people to "siege" (surround and attack).

[mantoe]

Mhm, keep the servers as is. Move along and update combat, implement sieges... no problema. Boom, mind blow. You may kiss my toe ring.

[kaisergod]

There is talk of being unable to harvest while encroaching (coding it fair), who has the benefit? The large tribe who has so much invested in infrastructure they can't move or the solo player who just dumps his totem wherever his current needs of resources are?

The landgrab and tribes needing a clear 220m radius, oh wait someone ran in and dropped a homestead 200m away I guess you can't have your tribe here anymore sorry. I guess the Exalted Empire of the Noble Eagles (hope thats not a real tribe name) will have to look elsewhere because "LOLUHAVEAIDS" wanted his totem in the middle of that junk pile.

If someone gets attacked and they run to their tribe/homestead... both are protected equally right now. So much for "fending" for themselves.

Oh and when they run out of resources? Guess who can pick up shop and go elsewhere? that's right, the solo player.

As a per player resource claim, the homestead is more efficient than any one tribe. 1player, 30m radius (20m now?) even with the lower estimate of 20m, if that puts tribes with 20 people, the bare minimum at 220m.... which is equal to 11 homesteads. Sorry tribes, solo wins again!

Until there is siege... until there are no safe zones... until there is a meaningful reason to be in a tribe the homestead wins on every front. And all this is because siege and defense is not in yet, so they had to protect people and "coded it fair". Well everyone is protected, but the soloers are taking this game to the bank.

**edit** I even forgot about the homestead's radius, so forget 200m away, that homestead could've been dropped 230m away, your tribe is still screwed.

Much of what youre saying is true, but the fact is its exactly the same in real life too. Which is more mobile and less dependant on resources, an entire established village or single person/small family who can move from place to place as needed?

Of course the larger group isnt as mobile and needs more resources, but you have NUMBERS. What do succesful tribes in real life have, which has allowed them to survive and grow into something larger? Is everyone a crafter? Is everyone a warrior? Is everyone a food gatherer? No. Its called specialization.

It may suck to have to do it, but the truth is in order to be truly succesful youre going to need to force your tribe members to be specialists, even if the work theyre doing sucks. Some will need to spend time terraforming, others fighting, others hunting animals & fishing, some gathering junk, some collecting wood, etc. So when you run out of resources youre going to need to make great use of everyones specializations.

No junk piles anywhere near you left? Well youre going to have to use your numbers to organize parties to go out and gather some junk further away along with some bodyguards for them so they dont get killed and robbed in the process.

Solo players however will not be able to specialize nearly as well. We will need to find a way to do everything for ourselves, with no backup. Out gathering junk? Youre your own bodyguard.

Alos when it comes to resources, youre kind of avoiding the fact that your tribe, with it smuch much larger land area has a HELL of a lot more resources within the safe zone than any soloer/homesteader can ever dream of getting in safety. And even if you do manage to deplete those, then like i said, youve got the numbers so use them. If your enot going to work together an duse your numbers as an advantage, why are you even in tribes?

[Sorakin]

Just because people are not in a tribe doesn't mean they can't trade for anything that they lack. When you add trading into the mix the only thing "NUMBERS" does for you is gives you protection... which with safe zones and no warfare again is borderline pointless. I agree that numbers in real life has an advantage, I am saying that the current "coding it fair" idea which was mentioned in my original quote really does favor solo players.

A few decisions have been made showing that the "coding it fair" idea lives on with the devs. Leaving safe zones in. Not leaving tribe overlap in. Not splitting the servers, and keeping the "Peace" direction. Letting homesteads get created today instead of just clans/tribes/etc.

[kaisergod]

Just because people are not in a tribe doesn't mean they can't trade for anything that they lack. When you add trading into the mix the only thing "NUMBERS" does for you is gives you protection... which with safe zones and no warfare again is borderline pointless. I agree that numbers in real life has an advantage, I am saying that the current "coding it fair" idea which was mentioned in my original quote really does favor solo players.

A few decisions have been made showing that the "coding it fair" idea lives on with the devs. Leaving safe zones in. Not leaving tribe overlap in. Not splitting the servers, and keeping the "Peace" direction. Letting homesteads get created today instead of just clans/tribes/etc.

Yes i know they can trade, but again, youre missing the point. WHO are they trading with? It is going to be much more difficult for soloers than it is for tribes who are already working together and contributing to help eachother with supplies, tools, etc.

Yes i know thats a decision we make when we choose to play solo, but you were talking about all this stuff being done to only benefit soloers, when tribes already have many advantages over soloers. Im not saying it should be as easy for a soloer as it is for a tribe, i dont expect it to be, but you and others like you basically shit on soloers/homesteaders and feel as if since we're not in a tribe we have no rights whatsoever and shouldnt even be given a fair chance to play the game.

As for your 2nd paragraph.... hate to break it to you, but several of those decisions were not made because of soloers. I wanted the War server rules myself as a soloer. But even on War server, what were the rules? Safezones are in UNTIL defense mechanics are put into the game. Both servers would have bee 100% identical at the start, and the only differences coming later on when safezones were removed and we are able to build protection for our land. The decision to do 1 server and keep the Peace rules (consentual warfare later down the road) was because of carebear TRIBES who want to be permanently safe until they feel they are sure they can win rather than being at risk of being attacked unexpectedly.


The overlap thing, i agree with you, they should have kept that. But the land grab today for clans/tribes only... again thats only insisiting you get special benefits "because im in a tribe" and screwing any soloers out of any oppurtunity to get just as good of a spot as you. It sucks that it works out the way it does because they removed the overlap, and because things arent conquerable right now.... but hey guess what, it works both ways. I love fighting against the odds and taking down much larger groups of people. Am i able to as a soloer, go into a clan or tribes land and fight off everyone protecting it, destroy all their stuff and claim it as my own? Nope. Or amybe sneak in late at night while everyone sleeping and burn down their buildings? Nope. I would love the ability to do that, just as much as you would like to go as a tribe to take out soloers blocking your progress. Neither side really wins, we both benefit and we both lose out in other aspects. It is not only soloers getting a benefit.

[Dubanka]

honestly if you're a solo player minding your own business you shoudl be off the radar for even the most grief minded tribes.

unless you're sitting on a nice resource plot or on some strategic position...and if that's the case, what would you think would happen?

and yes, seiges should take hours.

[ifireallymust]

honestly if you're a solo player minding your own business you shoudl be off the radar for even the most grief minded tribes.

unless you're sitting on a nice resource plot or on some strategic position...and if that's the case, what would you think would happen?

and yes, seiges should take hours.

You'll be safe as long as you never have anything we want...

Is that supposed to be comforting?

[denzil71]

http://www.dmtech.org.uk/images/sixth.jpg

[sloffe]

Actually the maths was wrong as well. One homestead with a radius of 20m would fit into the tribes 220m radius area more than 30 times giving the tribe of 20 a 50% greater area per person than the homesteader and therefore the greater access to resources.

[Lerxst]

Sorry Chaos/Benson. On one hand I agree - let the players settle this dispute in-game. On the other hand, I don't think the game can handle it, at least not yet. Too much room to exploit it and take advantage of other players and the system.

We can't all be on 24 hours and I don;t much like the idea of logging in to find my totem destroyed, structures burned to the ground and personal goods stolen while I slept... albeit not for very long :D

I would much rather see a long-term solution to the problem that would take time; sort of a war of attrition. I'm almost thinking in terms of Civilization 4 tactics here. Implement a "value" of some kind that each settlement starts with and can improve. If you border another settlement and your value (culture in Civ 4 terms) increases however much of a percent above theirs, than you basically conquer their totem/area.

Of course there would have to be some safeguards so that a well developed homestead could never be conquered by a large tribe. So, for example if a homestead can only get a value of 55 and a large tribe can get 100, make the "conquer" value be twice the target. This way actively maintained homesteads can't conquer one another (if they keep that gap narrow enough) and tribes can't conquer the homesteads - twice 55 is 110, which is more than a tribe could gain. But totems that haven't been maintained can be "erased" if their neighbors start to build up. May also require a grace period at the start to give a homesteader a chance vs the 20+ people in a tribe. On the other hand, once you're developed, it will help keep your borders clear.

Ok, I know it's complicated, but at least it will keep the griefers at bay and make people actually have to play the game but also allow totem conquest.

[Dubanka]

Sorry Chaos/Benson. On one hand I agree - let the players settle this dispute in-game. On the other hand, I don't think the game can handle it, at least not yet. Too much room to exploit it and take advantage of other players and the system.

We can't all be on 24 hours and I don;t much like the idea of logging in to find my totem destroyed, structures burned to the ground and personal goods stolen while I slept... albeit not for very long :D

I would much rather see a long-term solution to the problem that would take time; sort of a war of attrition. I'm almost thinking in terms of Civilization 4 tactics here. Implement a "value" of some kind that each settlement starts with and can improve. If you border another settlement and your value (culture in Civ 4 terms) increases however much of a percent above theirs, than you basically conquer their totem/area.

Of course there would have to be some safeguards so that a well developed homestead could never be conquered by a large tribe. So, for example if a homestead can only get a value of 55 and a large tribe can get 100, make the "conquer" value be twice the target. This way actively maintained homesteads can't conquer one another (if they keep that gap narrow enough) and tribes can't conquer the homesteads - twice 55 is 110, which is more than a tribe could gain. But totems that haven't been maintained can be "erased" if their neighbors start to build up. May also require a grace period at the start to give a homesteader a chance vs the 20+ people in a tribe. On the other hand, once you're developed, it will help keep your borders clear.

Ok, I know it's complicated, but at least it will keep the griefers at bay and make people actually have to play the game but also allow totem conquest.

Seiging should be extremely difficult.

No one should get a free pass. Just because you're the 'lttle guy' doesn't give you license to be immune from the big guys. especially when you're in their way.

besides, any 'griefer protection' (sicne all non-consensual pvp is griefing THE HORROR) that gets coded in, well, I dare say we're smart enough get around it. Homesteads can only fight homestead. Great. boys, need a homestead to split off an eliminate bob, he's sitting on the last pile of trash in the basin.

of course i could just lock you into your house...via a good old fashioned blockade...that's loads of fun for everyone.

but in all seriousness, it should take significant time, energy and resources to stage a seige..and seiging a well fortified homestead would take about the same amount of those elements as a 100 person fortress.

i'm not sure what yall are afraid of...they are only pixels.

[ifireallymust]

Seiging should be extremely difficult.

No one should get a free pass. Just because you're the 'lttle guy' doesn't give you license to be immune from the big guys. especially when you're in their way.

besides, any 'griefer protection' (sicne all non-consensual pvp is griefing THE HORROR) that gets coded in, well, I dare say we're smart enough get around it. Homesteads can only fight homestead. Great. boys, need a homestead to split off an eliminate bob, he's sitting on the last pile of trash in the basin.

of course i could just lock you into your house...via a good old fashioned blockade...that's loads of fun for everyone.

but in all seriousness, it should take significant time, energy and resources to stage a seige..and seiging a well fortified homestead would take about the same amount of those elements as a 100 person fortress.

i'm not sure what yall are afraid of...they are only pixels.

i'm not sure what yall are afraid of...they are only pixels. Why are you so scared you and yours won't be able to get your hands on every last one of them?

[Koll]

Great point made by river111 on page 5 of this thread:
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/5061-This-is-unbelievable
My own rant is on page 4... :p

I actually agree with this solution, and I would be happy with it,
but ideally, also give us a way to remove someone else's totem.
How exactly can we do that now without just being super annoying?

In reality someone could walk up, burn your house to the ground, chop your totem down, and walk off.
But also "in reality" there is a "fair balance" deterrent, because you could have sentry/alarms (dogs, watchtowers etc), and if you kill someone, or injure them, they are likely to be permanently removed as a threat.

This is a game, not reality- yes I know.
I'm not advocating a perfectly realistic system; this is a game and that is why games have systems for dealing with things like conquest and diplomacy which are balanced to the specifics of the game boundaries (Which are by nature, limited to less-than-real).
You have to admit though, that making a game with such strong focus on realistic features not having a system to balance basic property rights is kind of strange.

Maybe you "limit" the amount of "war declaration" one tribe can do in a set amount of time (one per 14 days maybe) then you would alleviate "steamroller" effect where a large tribe just wipes out everyone in mere days. Also before taking over a piece of land maybe there could be a transition time (like at least 72 hours) where a tribe could fight back the invader and take back its land. I am for what is proposed here (knowing that it means that we might loose our land) but it needs a fair balance I think. So that destroying a tribe or a homesteads is not just a matter of taking down a wooden post (totem).

To fight that back, I think homestead should be allowed to be in communities (within the same area) so you have to take ALL of them out not just one before you can laid claim to their land. Was it Shadowrun that had a system like that were wars for cities took 72 hours ???

[Salvadore]

Its good to see that FINALLY some of the community is starting to get the idea...GREAT post from the OP. Thread needs bumped because it almost drown in a tidal wave of /cry threads about server start.

As stated by several before...the more you try to "code" ways to create false safety, the more exploitable and problematic the system becomes.

I think it was said best here:


Seiging should be extremely difficult.

but in all seriousness, it should take significant time, energy and resources to stage a seige..and seiging a well fortified homestead would take about the same amount of those elements as a 100 person fortress.

[Risk]

really...all this over cargo pants...i mean theyre cool but come on folks...pants are pants....what are ya gunna get from a 100+ tribe with no pants aside from a REALLY un-comfortable moment...