friends are bailing [Archive]

coca

03-15-2011, 02:21 PM

Atmos.. we've been playing for months. The least they had to do was save the game, as they turned things on and something crapped out we wouldn't be out our time and effort. I don't blame people for not wanting to play an un-stable game. I had some guildmates that took off work to get a jumpstart and to get some things done. For what now.. none of it counted.. not only that they wont have the time to re-do the work.. no biggie I guess but it is when you are not certain if the same thing will just keep happening. People are loosing faith quickly.

I'd also like to point out if you get refunded your money your Totem isn't deleted as your account is merely "paused." I guess they are hoping you come back later. this could be good but is probably bad. Maybe there is a timer for it to "fall" but I have never read anything like this.

I'm blah at the whole situation. I wish I could talk people into staying but I don't blame them.. I want to leave myself.. the problem is I'm not sure where I would go.. back to DF, Start a character in wow and see what all I have been missing (roll eyes back) Play rift again or resub an old Ultima account....
the problem is none of those appeal to me right now.

This should be a good game.. I hope he gets it figured out...

I just want to build a small area to store some stuff in a grass basket.. and run around with friends killing all of you.
LOL

Furyk

03-15-2011, 02:28 PM

Atmos.. we've been playing for months. The least they had to do was save the game so when they did turn shit on we wouldn't be out time. I don't blame people for not wanting to play a stable game. I had some guildmates that took off work to get a jumpstart and to get some things done. For what now.. none of it counted.. not only that they wont have the time to re-do the work.. no biggie I guess but it is when you are not certain if the same thing will just keep happening. People are loosing faith quickly.

I'd also like to point out if you get refunded your money your Totem isn't deleted as your account is merely "paused." I guess they are hoping you come back later. this could be good but is probably bad. Maybe there is a timer for it to "fall" but I have never read anything like this.

I'm blah at the whole situation. I wish I could talk people into staying but I don't blame them.. I want to leave myself.. the problem is I'm not sure where I would go.. back to DF, Start a character in wow and see what all I have been missing (roll eyes back) Play rift again or resub an old Ultima account....
the problem is none of those appeal to me right now.

I just want to build a small area to store some stuff in a grass basket.. and run around with friends killing all of you.
LOL

good leave already. For Lent i gave up tolerating whiners and complainers. If you dont have the stones to last out a bad launch, MMO games arent for you.

Atmos

03-15-2011, 02:34 PM

days lost work = a day to fix

I have spent, and lost, more time on projects in real life. You cant just give up because you have to start over. Youre either in it for the 2months and see what happens or you aren't and you leave. Either way, it is whatever floats your boat.

ocoma

03-15-2011, 02:37 PM

They should completely wipe the accounts of people getting refunds. They will be back soon anyway and just end up paying more without the 2.5 months free gametime and loss of starter weapon.

r4NGe

03-15-2011, 02:37 PM

Get nerdier friends.

santoclawz

03-15-2011, 05:38 PM

i spent a looooong time cutting down trees no joke 100+ trees allll got rolled back, i was happy when i thought i was actually gonna be able to play

mindtrigger

03-15-2011, 05:45 PM

Well, I am sticking around for now since I have two and a half months of free service anyway, but I refuse to log into the game until I know there won't be any massive rollbacks.

Last night I had an amazing time playing and starting to get my character together. I spent a ton of time gathering and crafting to make clothes, and learning other aspects of the game along with leveling some skills. Then I logged in today like others to see all my hours of hard work was a waste of time.

I suppose there must have been a good reason for such a large rollback, but I simply can't waste any more time until I'm sure it won't happen again. This is a game breaker, and needs to be fixed now, not later.

doowac13

03-15-2011, 05:54 PM

Ven_Jance

03-15-2011, 06:29 PM

GUYS try to relize how much you want to or not this is a mmo and many mmo's are crappy the first week with lots of problems..i have played many, i cant blame you on how ya feel i feel the same way but im just not so quick to give it up on the opening day, im atleast gonna give it a week and it will probably run 100 times better..Gotta have faith my brothers and sisters amen!!!lol

Faith? this isn't religion...

Since Merdian 59, I have taken part in way, way too many closed alphas, closed/open betas and launches

The inherent lag issues relating to client and server sync are non-trivial and games purposely do not have certain features because of the level of technical feasibility this requires.

Many games take years to devise how to how to handle this around specific features- be they separate servers (for chat and NPC commerce), be they instances, etc.

In order to understand how to scale this, hence creating a product that accumulates customers, MMO companies purposely schedule open stress tests fo varying degrees.

There is a reason Rift launched with 100Ks of players almost without a hitch- they had the $ to do it. Obviously we support and hope that a few thousand people can make a game like this work, but the economics don't work out.

Darkfall took what - 7+ years to get the features they wanted almost lag free from their earliest game design?

I really hope this game succeeds, but it isn't gonna take faith, it is gonna take $

gundampilot20

03-15-2011, 06:40 PM

I am staying until my 2 1/2 months of gametime are up. I will not ask for a refund because I think the devs will get this sorted out.

joexxxz

03-15-2011, 06:40 PM

Good Point. Im here sense MAY 2010. And I know it will get better. They need to track down the lag problem. What and who is causing the lag. Make a small program to record the performance or something... For example. When i right click on a log and there is a lag, it takes a while for the menu to appear. I think it should not be that way.

millsdo

03-15-2011, 06:59 PM

Hopefully, they will figure it out very soon. It's just weird. It will work great for a few minutes...then he will shut it down. Then it works great for 30 minutes then the lag hits. Then, well....it's all random.

rajaxone

03-15-2011, 07:02 PM

YamiOkami

03-15-2011, 07:02 PM

Awesome... the more people leave the easier it will be on the servers, shame they got refunds tbh, but can't have everything.

Angyll

03-15-2011, 07:09 PM

Thinking of the hours I spent tracking down and trading for tools, yah it's depressing to lose that. However, in doing so I made some great new friends -- and the roll back hasn't affected that one bit! So it's not a total loss for me.

Please, just no more!! It takes enough time to advance anything that doing it over and over is too disheartening.

AV will remain and stick by the game. It's worth it.

~ Jezra

rajaxone

03-15-2011, 07:15 PM

billpaustin

03-15-2011, 07:20 PM

I would normally give an MMO at least a year, before writing it off. In this fickle market though, I'm not sure that works anymore. Can a game survive a bad launch and get that year of development?

Knowfear

03-15-2011, 07:22 PM

this game sucks and i am out i they just can't deliver what the promise

Saolite

03-15-2011, 07:52 PM

I would normally give an MMO at least a year, before writing it off. In this fickle market though, I'm not sure that works anymore. Can a game survive a bad launch and get that year of development?

Once upon a time, a beta was an actual beta. People knew that it was a very unfinished, rough product of what was to come. It was meant for testing, hammering out bugs, stress testing, and ensuring all that the features ( that were enabled ) functioned properly.

In the past 3 years, perhaps a little longer, the rise of the " Sneak Peak " has been what Beta's have become. It's no longer about helping a game development, but Beta has become a thing for people to try the game out before purchasing it. There are numerous reviewers, both professional and not, who join a game while in Beta and either flame it to hell or praise it beyond belief, yet when the actual game comes out, they find something different ( changed features, bugs, etc ) and are somehow surprised by this.

Obviously, this came to developers attention. They had to practically fully complete the game just to release in Beta so that reviewers wouldn't flame the crap out of it and expect some dazzling finished product, and because of the way things are these days, developers can't spend years in development, can't Beta a product properly because of it ( except in Alpha ), and end up pushing out either 1) with cut features, 2) unfinished, 3) buggy. Only huge companies such as Blizzard or Nexon or SOE can spend years in development on a single game and get through all that within a margin of error ( even if some of these companies still make fail games. There will be no names said. )

I am not saying this is the case with Xsyon specifically, but this is an unfortunate thing that is happening in the gaming industry right now.

So, to answer your question? No. Games cannot survive a bad launch anymore.

Look at Age of Conan. It was destroyed by its launch, even if it's a solid game now. Numerous other MMO's fall into that category. Will Xsyon fall into the same category? Don't know. It was a niche game from the get-go, so it didn't have mass market appeal such as Rift or World of Warcraft. All of us can admit to at least that.

So, will it survive? Hopefully.

mindtrigger

03-15-2011, 10:21 PM

So, will it survive? Hopefully.

This game is unique enough to survive this if they pull it out soon, and continue to make steady improvements and enhancements. Indy games like this don't play by the same financial/corporate rules, not to mention that the gameplay is so unlike anything out there that it will pull a very unique and dedicated player base, even if small at first.

Last night when the server was stable, I walked around and was sort of in a state of awe watching various tribes in my area working on their camps. It had this sense of reality to it that is hard to explain. I really felt like I was in this land where people were trying to get their lives back together, form groups, make camps, defenses, bushcraft, etc. It was really neat. Then I started crafting a nice set of leather clothed for my toon and realized that crafting is a lot fun. I really got swept away in it for hours.

That type of creative immersion is something you won't find in most games, especially theme park games. The community aspect where people were meeting up through general chat to share and trade tools was unique and awesome as well. I cannot wait to see alliances and friendships formed, a stable and interesting trade system, wars and conflicts, stories and adventures, etc. All of this created by the players themselves, not brought to you in a scripted and static quest or instance like most games.

ifireallymust

03-15-2011, 10:42 PM

This game is unique enough to survive this if they pull it out soon, and continue to make steady improvements and enhancements. Indy games like this don't play by the same financial/corporate rules, not to mention that the gameplay is so unlike anything out there that it will pull a very unique and dedicated player base, even if small at first.

Last night when the server was stable, I walked around and was sort of in a state of awe watching various tribes in my area working on their camps. It had this sense of reality to it that is hard to explain. I really felt like I was in this land where people were trying to get their lives back together, form groups, make camps, defenses, bushcraft, etc. It was really neat. Then I started crafting a nice set of leather clothed for my toon and realized that crafting is a lot fun. I really got swept away in it for hours.

That type of creative immersion is something you won't find in most games, especially theme park games. The community aspect where people were meeting up through general chat to share and trade tools was unique and awesome as well. I cannot wait to see alliances and friendships formed, a stable and interesting trade system, wars and conflicts, stories and adventures, etc. All of this created by the players themselves, not brought to you in a scripted and static quest or instance like most games.

All if this and then some.

Plus, while I'll weep and swear and wail and once in awhile throw something against the wall, then promise to quit after I get frustrated enough, bugs aren't really something that I actually will quit over. There's no way the devs want their game to be buggy (well, unless the psychology experiment conspiracy theorists are correct), and they'll get everything fixed eventually. Meanwhile, I can cope, but I think it's a shame that these bugs are still infesting an otherwise incredible game and I hope the game pulls through. I just don't want to play anything else, not even for fifteen minutes. :(

chaosegg

03-16-2011, 12:04 AM

I hope this isn't a re-occuring problem.. I have had several friends get a refund and bail today.. looks like the only thing Jordi is quick about is processing refunds.

It's a shame this game had so much potential.
My main online gaming buddy whom I played everything ever with for the last 18 years bailed on this game after a couple hours and got a refund...
He's not the lazy or impatient type either I assure you.
Makes me sad, but he did say it has potential though, so maybe he'll come back.

They should completely wipe the accounts of people getting refunds. They will be back soon anyway and just end up paying more without the 2.5 months free gametime and loss of starter weapon.
Totally agree, haha.

i spent a looooong time cutting down trees no joke 100+ trees allll got rolled back...
Good, you mean old tree killer! ;)

this game sucks and i am out i they just can't deliver what the promise Good riddance to you and all the other badly named, impatient ganker kiddies who came from Darkfall (an consequentially think that sandbox/FFA pvp /full loot means the only reason to play is to PvP, since that's all that was worth a damn in Darkfall) and can only complain, say "lol", and "sup".

Jasdemi

03-16-2011, 01:23 AM

I have no friends.

mgilbrtsn

03-16-2011, 01:44 AM

IMO, its kind of silly to condemn a game on the first day, even the first week. Realistically, I give it until my 'free' time is up. In this case 2 1/2 months. At that time I will make a decision on whether or not to stay. I think it is realistic to put the game down for a week or two during that time to see if it goes anywhere. Like I said, its just my opinion. But the first day or three, c'mon.

XeoStyle

03-16-2011, 01:47 AM

Same as Devros, giving it the free month.. Then we will probably look for another game to trash ;)

PrinceReaper

03-16-2011, 02:39 AM

You can get a refund? o.0 I thought all hope was lost!

Plague

03-16-2011, 02:56 AM

That is not a bad thing. Less people to share server with, more resources for devs to handle bugs and lag, and those guys will be back if this game gets fixed sometimes in the future. I find this quite natural, some people are prepared to stay through tough times and some are not and would prefer just playing what is playable with no fuss.

redrazor

03-16-2011, 03:03 AM

Once upon a time, a beta was an actual beta. People knew that it was a very unfinished, rough product of what was to come. It was meant for testing, hammering out bugs, stress testing, and ensuring all that the features ( that were enabled ) functioned properly.

In the past 3 years, perhaps a little longer, the rise of the " Sneak Peak " has been what Beta's have become. It's no longer about helping a game development, but Beta has become a thing for people to try the game out before purchasing it. There are numerous reviewers, both professional and not, who join a game while in Beta and either flame it to hell or praise it beyond belief, yet when the actual game comes out, they find something different ( changed features, bugs, etc ) and are somehow surprised by this.

Obviously, this came to developers attention. They had to practically fully complete the game just to release in Beta so that reviewers wouldn't flame the crap out of it and expect some dazzling finished product, and because of the way things are these days, developers can't spend years in development, can't Beta a product properly because of it ( except in Alpha ), and end up pushing out either 1) with cut features, 2) unfinished, 3) buggy. Only huge companies such as Blizzard or Nexon or SOE can spend years in development on a single game and get through all that within a margin of error ( even if some of these companies still make fail games. There will be no names said. )

I am not saying this is the case with Xsyon specifically, but this is an unfortunate thing that is happening in the gaming industry right now.

So, to answer your question? No. Games cannot survive a bad launch anymore.

Look at Age of Conan. It was destroyed by its launch, even if it's a solid game now. Numerous other MMO's fall into that category. Will Xsyon fall into the same category? Don't know. It was a niche game from the get-go, so it didn't have mass market appeal such as Rift or World of Warcraft. All of us can admit to at least that.

So, will it survive? Hopefully.

I applaud this post. Saolite, you nailed it. Its the fast food era. people want their dinner and they want it now, with large fries and all!

You just forgot to add the fact that people nowadays have so many choices on the MMO market (hell, Asia puts a game out each week! They are all the same tough) that they jump from game to game trying betas, trials and all they can to paly for free, speed their way to cap and then leave for the next in the list.

Unreleased games have a lot more hype than any released product (just look at mmorpg.com game list) because people just hope that next one is gonna be...humm...something, and it isnt. People play MMO's like a plague. They dont want to play games, sometimes they dont even want to meet people (early solo vs tribe discussions, anyone?). They just want TO BEAT the game. Get to the finish. Cap, kill everyone and brag about it.

So people demand they have a perfect game at launch, because they dont want to miss "the race" to become the top dog. Words like "headstart" are used refering to pre-launch acess. I only have a headstart when Im racing.

This thread has put some light into one thing. For some people all that matters is finishing that race and finishing first! Hard work levelling? If its hardwork, if its bodersome, dont do it. Games are supposed te exist so you can have fun. If it was hard work and a pain to cut 100 trees, cut 5 next time...your neighbors will be happy believe me.

Dont get me wrong, rollback is a nuissance but a small one. What if I lost some of my stuff? Isnt it why I play? Inst it the process of gathering what passes as fun? Or s it the branguing about having everything?

Saorlan

03-16-2011, 04:35 AM

marty

03-16-2011, 05:00 AM

I am sorry but no one should be getting a refund! Why the hell are people being given refunds?

You bought a game in development - all MMOs professional or independent suffer from lag at the beginning. I am really suprised that these refunds are being allowed. This game need the cash to stay afloat.

You've gotta be kidding me. The business model should be to provide a product that people want to buy, not to trick them into subsidizing its development

ifireallymust

03-16-2011, 05:16 AM

Remember, some players didn't get to experience the game before the major recent issues. They preordered at the last minute, and they haven't had any chance to see why so many people are so passionate about Xsyon despite its problems. And keeping that in mind, maybe it would be better to suggest they take a break for a week or even two, and come back to see if things are better. I got some fun playtime in before the first launch, and even though I was a little frustrated knowing everything I did would be gone, I got some fun playtime in while waiting for the second preorder launch. Not everyone who is venting right now did.

coca

03-16-2011, 06:39 AM

I think the problem is that now alot of us "gamers" are a little older and most have families now.

We have limited time to play games. We enjoy playing them and when we make time to play it really sucks that the time spent is lost. I don't think anyone is specifically mad about a small bug or an item gone.

One of my buddies specific case.. he took a full day off of work. When you only get a limited number of days off a year losing one really sucks. An hour or two lost would be acceptable, but a 12 hours roll back with no promise that it wouldn't happen again the next day would be hard for him to "trust" the game. Your right you want to have fun.. and how can anyone truely be having fun running around with 1400 ping, consistant crashes and roll backs without notice. These are the same items giving the Xsyon team trouble for 2 months that we were told would be corrected BEFORE launch. so I can see how people would migrate to more polished games that atleast ones that are playable. Suck or not.. atleast they work.

No one wants to be doing repitious tasks just to have it vanish and not count towards the final goal.

The fact that beta was pushed back several times shows the crew knew they had problem but chose to launch on the launch date dispite these problems.. even after leading the community to belive everything was under control.

I really think these guys are flying by the seat of their pants.
In the midst of the server lag and chaos they turned on animals and pvp... they changed death rules and terrian.

Why not work on lag .. get that first then implement other things.
oh and

Don't forget to press the save button.

Plague

03-16-2011, 07:04 AM

"Suck or not.. atleast they work."

I would rather not play a game then one that sucks even if it's most polished in the world.

About the rest you are not that far off, many people just want to relax and don't need extra frustration. I'm not one of them, I like a challenge, reward is usually much higher:)

bladra

03-16-2011, 07:23 AM

To be honest your jumping the gun by getting a refund honestly the did the right thing by giving us more time. That was. Nordic way of saying " we fucked up sorry well make it right" no Indy mmo has ever had a smooth launch day if it stays this bad for another month andd he goes silent then u can feel free to get a refund and shit talk the game. Also I don't think that some people have even the foggiest clue in the amount of work every little feature in xyson required elsewise I'd sit down and be patient

coca

03-16-2011, 07:57 AM

Well for now thats what I'm doing..

I'm watching several friends leave.. most are cashing out and putting that money towards rift. Most plan to come back if Xsyon is every fully functioning.

It seems so wierd a month ago the game was almost about to release things seemed more stable and there was talks about archery and other stuff almost ready to introduce. Now we are back to square one trying to harvest grass without lagging out and roll backs.

I am going to stay.. I hope others do as well.

This is forum is my only oulet for my frustration so I tend me be negative in my posts.

I do like the game It's fun as hell when the lag subsides and we aren't getting roll backs after the server drops.

*****
On a side note when my friend did quit his totem stayed up preventing us from dropping in our same area again.. SOOoooo

He emailed customer support and was told that since his character wasn't deleted, the totem would stay put. The company dosen't "delete" accounts when they are turned off.
The character is deleted when a new one is made on the same account and the totem does with the character. So we have a totem, that in their words, will stay put until someone gets around to manually removing unowned totems..

Right now I don't see that as a priority to them for a loooong time.

jumpshot

03-16-2011, 08:43 AM

that's a pretty big bummer, refunded accounts should be deleted, especially their totems :/

Dubanka

03-16-2011, 08:57 AM

It seems so wierd a month ago the game was almost about to release things seemed more stable and there was talks about archery and other stuff almost ready to introduce. Now we are back to square one trying to harvest grass without lagging out and roll backs.

This is the really odd piece...when i got wind of the game, i checked it out, researched the forums, and every bit of research I did told me:
- INCOMPLETE
- Stable Gameplay
- Huge, absolutely huge potential

based on this I sent out the bat signal, rallied the troops, and came on board with about a dozen folks, with a similar number sitting on the fence to see how it turns out...and again about that many that i could 'go get' if the game really panned out.

Unfortunately, I'm feeling a little bit stupid, and a little bit guilty now for putting 'my name' behind this and recommending it to folks. Over the window of recommending it, my recommendation went from:

Summary:
- Worth your time
- Worth your money
- Need to get more people in this game asap.
....
This is the game we've been waiting for...it's not quite perfect, but it's pretty damned close, and appears to be headed in a direction to make it more so. AND, buy the game, get 2 months free game time to decide if you like it...not a bad deal.

To:

xsyon, if you don't have $40 to blow, by all means don't buy it. This is in no way a finished product, and there is no guarantee that it will get close to where (the collective) we want it to be...it could even go in the total opposite direction.

BUT if the stars allign, and the devs actually *gasp* do what they say they want to do in a timely manner, well then it just might be great.

My current position is just hoping the devs get it together and start making some progress in th enext 75 days. I don't think we'll be dropping any accounts, but based on current activity we'll definitely be losing actives who just don't want their time wasted...and unless we see dramatic improvement to stability AND progress toward implementing currently absent feautures, i would be very hard pressed to recommend that anyone put any more money towards the game...much less put any more of my own money towards it.

The game has incredible potential. The intended feature set is amazing. The design vision is remarkable consider the proclivity for everyone to try and make the 'next wow' by being, 'like wow but different!'...Having the cajones to try to bring a game modeled after UO into todays market is remarkable, and potentially very very lucrative. HOWEVER. All this great stuff will be for naught if they can't deliver on the most basic elements of the game.

I want to be engaged in drop down drag out carebear vs. gankersquad forum wars over what is the correct progression of the game...and i want to be having those discussions a year from now...hell 5 years from now (they never truly end :) ). So please, devs, circle the wagons and get your shit together, a game can not survive faith that something great might come from it.

redrazor

03-16-2011, 10:06 AM

Coca, I thing you have extremly valid points on your speech.

Im trully sorry that your friends are leaving and you're feeling like quitting too. I do believe however that all of you had false expectations. You've pre-ordered an Indie MMO expecting it to be like Rift/WoW and other big titles out there. You also played a few days of Beta, and one or 2 days of launch week, expecting it to be a smooth game working without a glintch. Its not like you have no right to complain. You do. If people feel let down they should leave. Problem here is why they feel let down.

On a side note I would like you or any of the other people here to explain me this sentence: "No one wants to be doing repitious tasks just to have it vanish and not count towards the final goal."

I fail to understand what "final goal" means in an MMO. Specially a sandbox MMO. This is not flaming, its just puzzling to the sort of player I am.

On a final note, on refunds I find it amazing that the Devs actually do it, since the ToS clearly states:

"12. Refund Policy:

Xsyon (the "Service") is an interactive multiplayer online game world provided by Notorious Games, a Nevada LLC. It is not a product purchase. There are absolutely no refunds given on the establishment of an account and subscription to the service. The service is non-transferable. The Service is provided "AS IS" and is in a constant state of development and evolution. The experience of the online game will change over time. Signing up for the Xsyon service constitutes full acceptance of these Terms of Service and in accordance with these Terms of Service, Xsyon is a changing online world affected by the players. As such the world cannot be used as a free trial. Free trials will be offered separate from the paid Xsyon Service.

The Xsyon proprietary Game Client (the "Software") can be obtained as a free online download and is required for your usage of the Service. The software is a free download provided “AS IS.”

There will be no refunds issued should your computer fail to meet the minimum requirements to run the software or due to your dissatisfaction with the service."

If it was me, it would be No refund at all, no matter what...because, we all actually read this before acepting, right? It was that checkbox at the end before the "submit"

niccoli00

03-16-2011, 10:53 AM

If it was me, it would be No refund at all, no matter what...because, we all actually read this before acepting, right? It was that checkbox at the end before the "submit"

The problem is, if you offer a product, even adding "AS IS" and then you don't deliver a working product, you're liable. And even if the court did side with you, would you rather just give back $40 bucks, or try to fight it.

Sure, TOS is great to stand behind WHEN you have a working product. The intent of that section is to say, just because you didn't like how the working game turned out, you don't deserve a refund. If however, the company doesn't deliver and actual product that works, then it turns into potential fraud.

So sure, right now, he probably could stand behind his ToS, and someone could potentially bring up a small claims action against him. Does he want to spend the time and energy to defend his ToS? Probably cheaper to refund 40 bucks and move on.

I like to think however that he's giving refunds because he understands that people are frustrated, and he understands they aren't happy with it. That if he refunds now, in x time when it is stable, they are more likely to come back.

marty

03-16-2011, 11:02 AM

You can say no refunds as much as you want but as a binding agreement it's not worth the paper it isn't even printed on.

I mean, other than the morality or legality of not actually providing a product that people paid for (even if you honestly gave it a shot), payment processing companies probably don't give a damn about your EULAs or TOSs. If enough people are dissatisfied enough to get chargebacks through them instead of the vendor, it could look really really bad. Stuff like this doesn't do very much for goodwill either and is just plain bad for business. Allowing refunds is the least you can do for damage control.

I mean, it's not going to do good for your cashflow, but it's less likely to make people hopping mad and spread bad word of mouth to ruin xsyon's reputation. I'm sure if Xsyon gets where it needs to go, a lot of people who asked for refunds will buy the game again.

The devs aren't thieves, they know they should make money because people like what they do, not because people don't read fine print.

Dweetybyrd

03-16-2011, 11:08 AM

Faith? this isn't religion...

Since Merdian 59, I have taken part in way, way too many closed alphas, closed/open betas and launches

The inherent lag issues relating to client and server sync are non-trivial and games purposely do not have certain features because of the level of technical feasibility this requires.

Many games take years to devise how to how to handle this around specific features- be they separate servers (for chat and NPC commerce), be they instances, etc.

In order to understand how to scale this, hence creating a product that accumulates customers, MMO companies purposely schedule open stress tests fo varying degrees.

There is a reason Rift launched with 100Ks of players almost without a hitch- they had the $ to do it. Obviously we support and hope that a few thousand people can make a game like this work, but the economics don't work out.

Darkfall took what - 7+ years to get the features they wanted almost lag free from their earliest game design?

I really hope this game succeeds, but it isn't gonna take faith, it is gonna take $

Well said..... So, lets give them some money.... in good faith

Aethaeryn

03-16-2011, 11:09 AM

From what I have read no one has had a problem getting a refund directly from emailing the company. I would try that before doing a charge back etc. Also, any CC company rep worth his salt should ask if you have tried to contact the company first.

A company also has time to challenge a charge back. . where as the direct refund option you are sure to keep your money.

They are keeping my money because I want to see the game work and I don't think taking money away from development at this point will help. I had tonnes of fun in beta (worth the $40 alone) and hope to see that again in the near future.

Excellent points though. .all.

ac1dtrip

03-16-2011, 11:24 AM

Watch out guys pks are leaving a sandbox game better change things fast.

wolfmoonstrike

03-16-2011, 12:02 PM

Watch out guys pks are leaving a sandbox game better change things fast.

You do realize that other players are typically the content in a sandbox game, yeah? People leaving out of any group is bad because you need all groups for a great sandbox game.

Crafters= merchants
Good aligned PVPer= police/knights
Evil aligned PVPer= Organized Crime/ Villian
Neutral PVPer= Merc (typically)
PKers= bandits
Soloers= a little bit of everything

Griefers= whiners and everybody's favorite chew toy. I consider those who whine about getting the raw end of the deal by playing the game griefers. This is because this is a PA world and dying or getting shafted on resources is part of the game. Suck it up.

coca

03-16-2011, 01:23 PM

I would like you or any of the other people here to explain me this sentence: "No one wants to be doing repitious tasks just to have it vanish and not count towards the final goal."

I guess I could have been a little more eloquent. Most mornings when I make forum posts I am outside in a loud diesel shop on an old ratty computer typing as fast as I can in hopes my co-workers don't see what I'm up to HAHA.

I meant that as you've lost the time it took to complete a certain task.

Specifically in this case each of our guildmates had a goal for that day. My buddies goal was to cut trees and get ready. He took the day off and had HUGE stacks that were staged up ready to be dragged over. It rolled back with some of the stacks out away from the totem, none had been dragged over.
A neighboring clan logged in after the rollback and simply dragged what still showed up to their safe zone.. it crashed again so we dragged them to ours.. after doing this two times we said fuck it and they got all the wood. Its not the trees.. its the fact he devoted his day to accomplish something and basically had done it.. only for the server mistake to erase all that effort. His "final goal" was to get all our lumber up and moved over to our area so we could get started.

Very seldom do I log in without a plan of things I'd like to get accomplished between my pvp outings.

chaosegg

03-16-2011, 02:56 PM

Watch out guys pks are leaving a sandbox game better change things fast.

You do realize that other players are typically the content in a sandbox game, yeah? People leaving out of any group is bad because you need all groups for a great sandbox game.
Pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
______________________________________

I would like you or any of the other people here to explain me this sentence: "No one wants to be doing repitious tasks just to have it vanish and not count towards the final goal."

I fail to understand what "final goal" means in an MMO. Specially a sandbox MMO

I meant that as you've lost the time it took to complete a certain task.

Specifically in this case each of our guildmates had a goal for that day. My buddies goal was to cut trees and get ready. ... Its not the trees.. its the fact he devoted his day to accomplish something and basically had done it.. only for the server mistake to erase all that effort. His "final goal" was to get all our lumber up and moved over to our area so we could get started.

Very seldom do I log in without a plan of things I'd like to get accomplished between my pvp outings.
Precisely this ^ ; you create your own "final goal" in the 'sandbox MMO', but repetitive tasks usually are towards the goal of crafting and/or skilling up? With the end result being that you are better at that than someone who has NOT spent the time doing those repetitive tasks.
And the point of that is? Well, what's the point of life anyways? :p
You can think like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4
all you want, but sometimes it is difficult... depending on how the game is made (or how your outlook on life is).

A good game will make even the drudge-work a little bit enjoyable (gathering, sorting, organizing, crafting slot-machine in Xsyon is almost fun in and of itself, I have to say).
Notice Xsyon does not have a level counter? Yeah, tricky bit of psychology there; I like it, but the game is still full of goal-oriented tasks (self-guided or not),
so when what you do is not just taken away by the game mechanics (E.G. your own choice/skill within the game), but by the game world/rules changing...

fatboy21007

03-16-2011, 03:02 PM

i dont sleep anymore! thats how i get stuff done ingame :-)

Aethaeryn

03-16-2011, 06:05 PM

You do realize that other players are typically the content in a sandbox game, yeah? People leaving out of any group is bad because you need all groups for a great sandbox game.

Crafters= merchants
Good aligned PVPer= police/knights
Evil aligned PVPer= Organized Crime/ Villian
Neutral PVPer= Merc (typically)
PKers= bandits
Soloers= a little bit of everything

Griefers= whiners and everybody's favorite chew toy. I consider those who whine about getting the raw end of the deal by playing the game griefers. This is because this is a PA world and dying or getting shafted on resources is part of the game. Suck it up.

Have you seen the thread on tribes listed by Hopibear? There are maybe 2 or 3 "good" tribes. . . one of which is Hopi which is a crafting tribe. .about 2 thirds are neutral and 1/3 are evil and PvP oriented. I don't disagree with you and I know that "evil" tribes will likely fight each other as well while the "good" tribes will team up. . but still.. it is a little unbalanced at this point. Makes me want to join one of the two "good" PvP tribes. :)

wolfmoonstrike

03-16-2011, 06:22 PM

Have you seen the thread on tribes listed by Hopibear? There are maybe 2 or 3 "good" tribes. . . one of which is Hopi which is a crafting tribe. .about 2 thirds are neutral and 1/3 are evil and PvP oriented. I don't disagree with you and I know that "evil" tribes will likely fight each other as well while the "good" tribes will team up. . but still.. it is a little unbalanced at this point. Makes me want to join one of the two "good" PvP tribes. :)

That's why I made a distinction on good aligned PVPers. I was making a distinction on the type of players, not tribes lol. Btw I agree that good and evil are usually unbalanced in games, but its also unbalanced in RL. I mean the Criminal to law enforcement ratio is highly in favor of criminals (Counting all criminals not just the really nasty ones). If you want to be a good aligned PVPer then by all means go for it ^^. Like I said we need all types of players even the PKers because they make life exciting for the crafters (and you never realize whats something is worth until its worth protecting).

Evil and PKers also give work for crafters, mercs, and good PVPers (indirectly and directly). Also I'm not a heavy roleplayer in games but I do get into my "character" in sandbox games. You really don't have a choice because essentially, the character, is what you would be in whatever setting the sandbox game is in.

I'd also like to point out that just because you are a warring tribe (PVP) you are not always evil. It's just how you've chosen to survive. IMO in a PA world the only true alignment is Survival everything else is irrelevant.

Sorry for spewing words lol, I just keep typing sometimes.

redrazor

03-16-2011, 06:28 PM

First of all Coca, thank you for that explanation. I had mistakened it for something else I hear a lot these days.

Like I said before, no one enjoys a rollback, but these things do happen unfortunetly. Is it bad enough to have someone leave? Well, all of us need to make that decision (and dont need to brag it on the forums). I believe yours was not that case. You're pointing out your concerns in a way that I believe is a lot more constructive than what has been observed latelly here.

Lag is horrible. Yes. Are they fixing it? I believe so. Will it be better? Either that or the servers close, since I dont think anyone will be here indefinetly.

But lets think about it...cant it get better? Is there some actual force reventing it from suceeding? The only thing that might make it a fail is us. Yeah, thats right, us! We're the only people that can drive Xsyon to fail. We can do that by posting on public forums (here or otherwise, as has been done already), on youtube and to every single person we know how horribly bad Xsyon is. How full of lag, broken features and broken promises it is. If we do that, it will fail. I can garantee that.

Or we can prevail. We can undesrtand this is a niche game, the team is small and the budget is smaller. That an MMo is a hard enterprise, and that the features they want implemented are hard to pull...some are even unheard of before. That all MMO's have bad launches (if anyone states Rift my reply is "Go back to Rift then"), specially indie MMO's.

Can we play with this lag? Some can aparently. Others cant. Any MMO out there will give you 1 month with the purchase. You have 2 and a half months. It hasnt even been a week from launch...hell...it hasnt even been 3 days.

Its time people make their decisions. The Devs are working...too busy to read ranting, and too focused to pay atention to complains. Its time we get to work too.

Its like you and your buddies and the wood gathered. We can start to gather some wood out here and be constructive, come together as a community and endure the pain, or we can quit.

Your call.

Aethaeryn

03-16-2011, 06:33 PM

That's why I made a distinction on good aligned PVPers. I was making a distinction on the type of players, not tribes lol. Btw I agree that good and evil are usually unbalanced in games, but its also unbalanced in RL. I mean the Criminal to law enforcement ratio is highly in favor of criminals (Counting all criminals not just the really nasty ones). If you want to be a good aligned PVPer then by all means go for it ^^. Like I said we need all types of players even the PKers because they make life exciting for the crafters (and you never realize whats something is worth until its worth protecting).

Evil and PKers also give work for crafters, mercs, and good PVPers (indirectly and directly). Also I'm not a heavy roleplayer in games but I do get into my "character" in sandbox games. You really don't have a choice because essentially, the character, is what you would be in whatever setting the sandbox game is in.

I'd also like to point out that just because you are a warring tribe (PVP) you are not always evil. It's just how you've chosen to survive. IMO in a PA world the only true alignment is Survival everything else is irrelevant.

Sorry for spewing words lol, I just keep typing sometimes.

Nah that all makes sense. . and before I bail from these forums I will agree with one thing for sure. After playing Meridian 59. . UO etc. I moved into DAoC. . eventually I was playing games with only consentual PvP for years. I had forgotten what it was like to be in a sandbox. Then I played Darkfall. . and MO. . .They didn't quite do it for me for several reasons (I won't get into that) but they did do one thing. . they ruined other games for me. There is just no going back now. I can never play a game that doesn't have at least mostly open PvP and a skill based system. Sandboxes do need all kinds of players to reach their full potential.

When evil outbalances good people start getting together and fighting it.. . with artificial limitations in place that can't happen as much. With levels. . a lynch mob of 7 guys has no chance against a way higher level player who keeps ganking them. Open is the way to go for sure and most sandboxes have issues because they are not on rails and have so much going on. So back on topic. . if the OPs friends bail. . I hope they come back. . they don't know what they might be missing . . . I still have to say might :)

Niburu

03-16-2011, 06:47 PM

Nah that all makes sense. . and before I bail from these forums I will agree with one thing for sure. After playing Meridian 59. . UO etc. I moved into DAoC. . eventually I was playing games with only consentual PvP for years. I had forgotten what it was like to be in a sandbox. Then I played Darkfall. . and MO. . .They didn't quite do it for me for several reasons (I won't get into that) but they did do one thing. . they ruined other games for me. There is just no going back now. I can never play a game that doesn't have at least mostly open PvP and a skill based system. Sandboxes do need all kinds of players to reach their full potential.

When evil outbalances good people start getting together and fighting it.. . with artificial limitations in place that can't happen as much. With levels. . a lynch mob of 7 guys has no chance against a way higher level player who keeps ganking them. Open is the way to go for sure and most sandboxes have issues because they are not on rails and have so much going on. So back on topic. . if the OPs friends bail. . I hope they come back. . they don't know what they might be missing . . . I still have to say might :)

Everyone who has the game now has a 2 month subscription. If the problems can be fixed in this time iam sure you will read many positiv feedback on the forum and everyone who maybe got uninterested will be look into the game again.....and when they see how a player can influence the world they stay anyways