Destroying Resources a Legitimate Tactic?

[madea]

At the risk of exposing myself to derision, I was told the devs read this part of the site, so I figured I'd post it here in the hopes they'll see it. Apologies if it is out of place, I'll post it under the other section meant for specific dev questions if necessary.

So, I log in to find that the area around my tribe's totem has been reduced to a wasteland. All of the trees destroyed, logs destroyed, and stumps destroyed. Based on after action accounts, no attempt to harvest these supplies was made as it was intended as a form of non-direct pvp.

While I didn't expect the game to hold my hand here, seeing as there is nothing we can do about it post-event seems to indicate a significant break in the system.

My main question to the devs is: "Are such slash-and-burn tactics considered viable?"

And, if so, are there any systems in place planned to help mitigate the unmitigated dickery of the tactic?

The problems is that there are literally no cons to doing it, which means that people WILL do it if for no other reason than "teh lulz", meanwhile we suffer and there is no way for us to stop it.

Setting aside the "well, if this were really a post-apocalyptic setting people wouldn't be nice" argument (which is false, because if this were real life nobody could destroy resources that fast and permanent death is either a sufficient deterrent or a permanent solution to the problem), we need something.

While I advocate the ability to replant ourselves, that still faces the problem of forcing "peaceful" players to work hard for resources that take nothing to destroy. And, in fact, harvesting those resources is a significant pain in the ass while destroying them is far, far easier.

I generally don't like to point out a problem unless I have a solution, but in this case I'm not very adept at making balanced game systems.

In which case perhaps the community has some ideas that would allow PvP without leaving non-aggressive players ripe for the abuse which will happen if no checks are in play.

Thanks. :cool:

[wolfmoonstrike]

I think the best solution might be a simple one.

Make it so players can't destroy a stump unless its on your land (or tribe's land). So it'll still allow some for some form of "dickory" but after awhile it'll just be too much of a pain in the ass to keep chopping down a tree every respawn cycle for most people.

[Daeish]

I agree with wolfmoon, that this would be a good solution.

Either that, or make trees regrow even without the stump.

[mrcalhou]

Yes, I do think it's a viable tactic. No, I do not think that trees should be able to be cut down so quickly.

[Liil]

I agree with Wolfmoonstrike also - we set up next to a forest deliberately so we would have a wood resource close by. we now have no wood at all anywhere near to our camp due to the spitefulness of other people and the fact that they removed an entire forest overnight. We now need the ability to re-grow said trees or make it so that this cannot continue happen in the future to other tribes.

[Bluebizzer]

Definitely think it needs to be made a lot harder for 1 person to destroy such a large area as they can now. No reason to stop the ability to do it all together imo, but it should be a considerable task to totally destroy everything, giving people an ample chance to try and stop them.

[madea]

And yet more complications seem to arise:

1) "Make it so players can't destroy a stump unless its on your land (or tribe's land)" - The problem here is, as Liil said, we set up next to a forest, not in the forest. Technically, there aren't any trees on "our" land.

2) "No, I do not think that trees should be able to be cut down so quickly." - If they make it hard for people to cut down trees for "PvP" purposes, they make it equally hard for people who need those resources to achieve. It's not really a deterrent.

Further, along those lines, making it prohibitively long to destroy a stump might be an acceptable/possible partial deterrent (if you've ever tried to dig up a stump you know how much that sucks), but since the only thing being claimed there is time it has limited use.

3) "but it should be a considerable task to totally destroy everything, giving people an ample chance to try and stop them. - The problem here is that there is no way to "stop" them. You can drive them off temporarily, but considering that unless a tribe is able to field a watch 24 hours a day, all anyone has to do is wait until off hours before doing what they want to do. Wash, rinse, repeat and it's really only a minor end run for the ones doing it while the people who legitimately want to gather those resources find it even harder to do so. (Resources gathering is -already - hard)

Unless, of course, you meant the destruction of resources part, by which I agree... you wouldn't be able to get rid of a forest full of trees that quickly.



Also, if I understand it correctly, trees already regrow without the stump just randomly. While I'm all for such a thing (maybe just an increased respawn timer), and obviously the solution needs to be a combination sort of thing, the bottom line is motivation. Again, my major concern is that no mechanic rewards PVPers (by letting them engage in behavior they like with little to no effort) while leaving other players vulnerable. And while I'm enjoying the crafting/resourcing/building part of Xsyon, if I just get to be a moving target for PvPers to practice on while doing so, my enthusiasm for the game is seriously dampened.

[Larsa]

... I generally don't like to point out a problem unless I have a solution, but in this case I'm not very adept at making balanced game systems.

In which case perhaps the community has some ideas that would allow PvP without leaving non-aggressive players ripe for the abuse which will happen if no checks are in play. ... Of course posters are right when they write that trees shouldn't be so easy to destroy. However, if it would be more difficult and would take longer, people would still do it. Just because they can.

In the long run you have no other option than to relocate to a nicer neighbourhood. Even then, the same might happen again and you might have to relocate again. It's the nature of the beast.

The devs made this game with FFA PvP mechanic, thus FFA PvP-er came to play the game. Thus the trees will go down.

[Delvie]

While you can't stop this type of PVP it definitely needs to be slowed down. To completely destroy logs should take a while that's why we have mills in real life - it ain't easy to reduce even a small piece of firewood to sawdust (especially without electricity). Stumps (as mentioned above) should be a royal pain in the butt to destroy - for that matter same with boulders.

Hopefully when agriculture comes in the ability to plant trees also comes in. Though was reading the other day about garden terrorists (in real life) who go around and stealth plant empty lots in big cities. So if you can cut down trees anywhere should you be able to plant trees anywhere?

[Sirius]

Stumps (as mentioned above) should be a royal pain in the butt to destroy


Hey, looky here. I scavenged myself up a case of beer and a case of dynamite. Fun afternoon INC!

[Chile]

I think things in tribal areas should be safe including stumps until of course they lift the safe zones and sieges are allowed.

On the other hand, if you go off your tribal land and say, cut down a tree for logs those logs are now open for anyone to do anything with. I don't think that "safe" should be extended for an example, that if you cut down a tree outside your safe zone only you or your tribe can access those logs, this doesn't happen in real life. This includes taking said logs or destroying said logs. This also teaches a lesson that, if you harvest outside your tribal safe zone one needs to move those resources inside your tribe borders ASAP.

It is just like PvP. You are safe in your tribal area, you are not safe outside. The same goes for resources. We all learned this in beta over the last year. (If you weren't in early beta, you are learning this now)

Remember, this is an open sandbox game and there are many was for one to play it, to include brigands, peaceful tribes, solo play (to an extent), warring tribes... hence the good, neutral and evil standings.

In saying this I am sure the devs are trying to make this world as real as possible to include usage of the resources like, trees, animals, junk piles etc., real and functional as possible. What happens in the real world when all the animals are killed off? Now I understand some balance to a point here, but this isn't a a controlled theme park MMO.

I am sure what is coming next is that people will complain that the junk piles are gone in their area, the tribe next to them is to large and has to many people to collect resources, there's not enough fish, the animals can't re-spawn/grow fast enough, distance to travel to gather stuff is to far, why isn't there a Walmart... it will happen. I haven't even started on the griefing and PvP aspects.

This is not a caring and sharing game. It's a post apocalyptic open sandbox MMO with basic rules and guidelines to include taking or destroying of resources, making enemies or allies, etc.. These resources are a precious commodity so use them wisely. Look at our real world around us. It you are expecting to go camping, build your fire, set up some tents, sing kumbaya and not be bothered... this is the wrong game for you.

[iskald4400]

I think things in tribal areas should be safe including stumps until of course they lift the safe zones and sieges are allowed.

On the other hand, if you go off your tribal land and say, cut down a tree for logs those logs are now open for anyone to do anything with.
I totally agree. But the OP was talking not of logs but of tree stumps being destroyed, and asking if that was working as intended. QQing about lost logs would be silly.

[madea]

Of course posters are right when they write that trees shouldn't be so easy to destroy. However, if it would be more difficult and would take longer, people would still do it. Just because they can.

In the long run you have no other option than to relocate to a nicer neighbourhood. Even then, the same might happen again and you might have to relocate again. It's the nature of the beast.

The devs made this game with FFA PvP mechanic, thus FFA PvP-er came to play the game. Thus the trees will go down.

So the nature of the beast is "unless I am willing to FFA PvP constantly, I should just deal with it?" That's not an acceptable argument, or an acceptable situation. If it comes down to it, I suppose I could just leave, but considering that both the PvPer and the non-PvPer are paying customers, both have an equal right to play. The difference between the two is that my style of play doesn't require interfering with the gaming of others.

Bottom line, the game is touted at being more than just a PvP game. If PvPers are given free reign, they will act like dicks to the fullest extent they are able. And while I fully support their right to be able to do that, and am even okay with having to take steps to avoid being a victim of that, I am not okay with having to work twice or three times as hard as they to do so.

In real life, the planes are much more even and there are consequences (natural and man-made) that prevent this from occurring with any great frequency. That we haven't turned this planet into a scorched and blackened husk is proof to that. In the exaggerated reality of the game world those consequences for antisocial behavior seem to be removed entirely while being constructive retains much more of its complicated nature.

And that's hardly fair. (Yes, I know life isn't fair. This isn't life. This is a game. And games are designed to give as even a playing ground to all players as possible.)

Added after 8 minutes:


I think things in tribal areas should be safe including stumps until of course they lift the safe zones and sieges are allowed.

On the other hand, if you go off your tribal land and say, cut down a tree for logs those logs are now open for anyone to do anything with. I don't think that "safe" should be extended for an example, that if you cut down a tree outside your safe zone only you or your tribe can access those logs, this doesn't happen in real life. This includes taking said logs or destroying said logs. This also teaches a lesson that, if you harvest outside your tribal safe zone one needs to move those resources inside your tribe borders ASAP.

It is just like PvP. You are safe in your tribal area, you are not safe outside. The same goes for resources. We all learned this in beta over the last year. (If you weren't in early beta, you are learning this now)

Remember, this is an open sandbox game and there are many was for one to play it, to include brigands, peaceful tribes, solo play (to an extent), warring tribes... hence the good, neutral and evil standings.

In saying this I am sure the devs are trying to make this world as real as possible to include usage of the resources like, trees, animals, junk piles etc., real and functional as possible. What happens in the real world when all the animals are killed off? Now I understand some balance to a point here, but this isn't a a controlled theme park MMO.

I am sure what is coming next is that people will complain that the junk piles are gone in their area, the tribe next to them is to large and has to many people to collect resources, there's not enough fish, the animals can't re-spawn/grow fast enough, distance to travel to gather stuff is to far, why isn't there a Walmart... it will happen. I haven't even started on the griefing and PvP aspects.

This is not a caring and sharing game. It's a post apocalyptic open sandbox MMO with basic rules and guidelines to include taking or destroying of resources, making enemies or allies, etc.. These resources are a precious commodity so use them wisely. Look at our real world around us. It you are expecting to go camping, build your fire, set up some tents, sing kumbaya and not be bothered... this is the wrong game for you.

The real life argument is a false argument. In real life I can permanently kill someone who messes with my stuff. Risk versus reward makes people think twice about how badly they want to be a dick; in this gamespace, there's no risk and all reward to the PvPer, and for the non-PvPer it's mostly risk, little reward. In real life that dichotomy doesn't exist because we're plugged in constantly; you don't get to log out and you have to live with what you do.

In real life, nobody could slash and burn an entire hillside in a few hours. In real life, everyone needs those resources which would make it a competition, instead of one group of people needing the resources and another group of people having no interest in those resources.

In real life, retaliation is possible through many means. In this game, there is no way I could retaliate in any meaningful way; what am I going to do? Kill them? They can retreat to their safe place and log off just as I can, and PvP is what they want. So I don't see how that's a sustainable situation. Eventually anyone interested in building and terraforming will leave, so I doubt the studio can afford to entirely alienate an entire section of their market.


In otherwords, this comes across as a typical response from a pro-PvPer and does not at all address the fact that there is a difference between having PvP and giving PvPers free reign to victimize people. Don't tell me "this is the wrong game for me" in a knee-jerk reaction of someone you think is too soft to play this kind of game. This game wasn't touted as a pure PvP rapefest, the PvP was advertised as part of it, not the whole play. I'm up for a challenge, but I am not a masochist; I'll only put up with an intractable situation for so long.

In real life death is permanent; as realistic as this game tries to be, unless it allows permadeath with no character recreation it will fall short of that goal and steps should be taken to help mitigate that very basic natural consequence.

You can play rough all you like, but try a more solid argument for your case.



EDIT: Bottom line, the point is kind of moot once a Dev makes a say. If they say the system works as intended and that they really do mean for people to be able to strip-destroy resources, well, then I get to eat crow and drive on. The debate part is only for if they say the matter is open for discussion and want input into the matter.


I totally agree. But the OP was talking not of logs but of tree stumps being destroyed, and asking if that was working as intended. QQing about lost logs would be silly.

Yes, indeed. Not QQing about lost logs. QQing about destroyed stumps preventing us from having even a chance at getting the wood. ^^ PvP debates are as old as MMOs though, so I'm not going to argue too hard; just want to see if the devs mean for it to work like this!

[ifireallymust]

I like the idea of making stumps ridiculously time consuming to destroy. Maybe stumps on tribe land could be easier to remove, so people who want to remove a stump to put up a wall or building won't be too inconvenienced.

[jumpshot]

I think the best solution might be a simple one.

Make it so players can't destroy a stump unless its on your land (or tribe's land). So it'll still allow some for some form of "dickory" but after awhile it'll just be too much of a pain in the ass to keep chopping down a tree every respawn cycle for most people.

This is honestly a pretty damn good idea.


And yet more complications seem to arise:

1) "Make it so players can't destroy a stump unless its on your land (or tribe's land)" - The problem here is, as Liil said, we set up next to a forest, not in the forest. Technically, there aren't any trees on "our" land.

I think you misread his idea. If its not on anyones land it couldn't be detroyed, like Rocks. Thus the stumps would be safe.



I've heard that trees will regrow nearby if the stumps are destroyed, just not ON the stumps like if they aren't destroyed. Could be the fix is already in place, we'll find out after the grow cycle.

[Sirius]

I think making it extremely time-consuming and stamina-intensive would be best, thus making it easy to chase down and kill someone who's doing this to your surrounding lands.

[StarvingSteve]

Madea made some really nice points there.
I agree that carebear-protectors need options to track down specific players who've been messing around. Even if someone saw the perpetrators and knows their nicknames, it's too hard atm to take revenge.


EDIT: Bottom line, the point is kind of moot once a Dev makes a say. If they say the system works as intended and that they really do mean for people to be able to strip-destroy resources, well, then I get to eat crow and drive on. The debate part is only for if they say the matter is open for discussion and want input into the matter.

The devs want balanced PvP, but the entire system is very much work-in-progress. Don't know if they already have any specific plans...

[mrcalhou]

I'm not a huge fan of fixes that go along the lines of "If, then, unless."

Get rid of the stipulations, make it effect everyone, and then tweak the numbers. Like I tell my students, as my teachers told me: "KISS." Keep it simple, stupid.

[Jadzia]

The trees should grow back in 24 hours. That would solve the problem quickly without any need of coding.

[madea]

This is honestly a pretty damn good idea.



I think you misread his idea. If its not on anyones land it couldn't be detroyed, like Rocks. Thus the stumps would be safe.



I've heard that trees will regrow nearby if the stumps are destroyed, just not ON the stumps like if they aren't destroyed. Could be the fix is already in place, we'll find out after the grow cycle.

Ah! So I did; thank you for pointing that out. I retract my objection on that point, then. :3

[niccoli00]

As in almost every PvP game you get things like this, that the community will find to use as tactic.

Chop down all the trees in your enemies area.
Pave over their junk piles (I'm betting you haven't had this yet).

Numerous other things that can be done. And yes, either it's intended, which I believe it is partially intended, or not realized the full extent of what can happen. In either case, you can just wait for clarification of the intent, or for a fix. Other than that, additional debate probably won't serve much more purpose.

[mrcalhou]

The trees should grow back in 24 hours. That would solve the problem quickly without any need of coding.

Why 24 hours? That number seems a bit arbitrary. Maybe 20 hours would be better for balance or 12. Or 2. Maybe 3.5.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I think Eve has a good system for stuff like this. First off there are a good bit of asteroids in any given Solar System (for the most part) and any asteroid takes a good bit of time to completely mine out. Now, it's perfectly possible to strip mine an area. In fact, strip mining happens a lot. But it takes time to do it.

Eventually asteroids respawn (they do this during server maintenence), but instead of following a set timer to respawn somewhere they all respawn at the same time. This way it'll take time to completely strip mine an area again. If a tree respawns every 24 hours, or even on a set time since it was felled, then you could just have people camp the areas and the area would stay stripped, because as soon as one spawned it would be chopped down. Not a good solution in my opinion.

[madea]

The trees should grow back in 24 hours. That would solve the problem quickly without any need of coding.

Hm. That seems viable, though it places a minor inconvenience on the people who purposefully want specific trees removed and defeats the purpose of being able to remove stumps to begin with.

If it's that or nothing, I'll take that, personally.

[Kiriath]

ummm if you dont like your neighbors move. Simple solution. And dont tell me ppl follow you around just to grief you, aint buying.

[Deatu]

Have you ever tried to dig up a stump in real life? Its f***ing difficult as hell! Make removing stumps a 5 minute cool-down that saps all your energy. Ive had to dig stumps myself that have taken two days without a stump grinder.

Spoken with truth.

[ColonelTEE3]

Yeah i know ignored the rest of your dissertation, i don't care about it. I'm currently only replying to this very deluded logic right here:


but considering that both the PvPer and the non-PvPer are paying customers, both have an equal right to play. The difference between the two is that my style of play doesn't require interfering with the gaming of others.

Thats where you're wrong. The kind of change you want is accommodating to YOUR playstyle, not everyones. Least of all people who aren't scared of fighting back, which im assuming you must be, because you never mentioned your attempt to fight back, deforest their outlying area, grief them back, etc. Instead of dealing with your personal issues personally, you want the game to change around you. Im sorry this is not a micro-habitat that only affects you and your crafter club.

The freedom that this kind of griefing promotes allows for a more dynamic world that forces you to deal with situations that aren't easy, they aren't nice, and they don't have happy simply solutions like more safe zones and more restrictions.

[Jadzia]

Hm. That seems viable, though it places a minor inconvenience on the people who purposefully want specific trees removed and defeats the purpose of being able to remove stumps to begin with.

If it's that or nothing, I'll take that, personally.
People should only be able to dig out stumps inside their own tribe area, and the trees shouldn't grow back if the stump is removed.

@mrcalhou: 24 hours was only a guesstimation of course :) It can be more or less, and the respawn should be random inside the given time frame, be it 24-48 hours (only an example). So a tree could regrow 25 hours after it was cut, but it might happen that it only regrow after 47 hours.

[niccoli00]

Have you ever tried to dig up a stump in real life? Its f***ing difficult as hell! Make removing stumps a 5 minute cool-down that saps all your energy. Ive had to dig stumps myself that have taken two days without a stump grinder.

Spoken with truth.

Have you ever seen a tree grow out of a stump that would be useful for anything in any short amount of time, in real life?

Have you ever just poured gasoline on a stump and burned it out?

I agree that it should take longer than a second to destroy things, and I think that applies to everything on the ground, piles, logs, stumps, rocks, etc.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Perma-Death with heir system would slow down random pk tribes. Right now it's ridiculously easy to grief new players straight out of the game.

[madea]

Yeah i know ignored the rest of your dissertation, i don't care about it. I'm currently only replying to this very deluded logic right here:



Thats where you're wrong. The kind of change you want is accommodating to YOUR playstyle, not everyones. Least of all people who aren't scared of fighting back, which im assuming you must be, because you never mentioned your attempt to fight back, deforest their outlying area, grief them back, etc. Instead of dealing with your personal issues personally, you want the game to change around you. Im sorry this is not a micro-habitat that only affects you and your crafter club.

The freedom that this kind of griefing promotes allows for a more dynamic world that forces you to deal with situations that aren't easy, they aren't nice, and they don't have happy simply solutions like more safe zones and more restrictions.

Actually, I concede the point about my style of play not interfering; you are correct, making it harder for a PvPer to screw with me is definitely interference. But don't assume that I'm sitting here wringing my wrists over the perceived injustice; I just want to know if they really intend for it to be this easy for griefers to grief while it is very hard to not grief, and that's skewed no matter how you slice it.

However, the rest is still a false argument. Zero-sum scorched earth tactics are counterproductive to the ultimate goal, which is a sustainable game world, no?

You assertions are based on the assumption that the people who did this care if we do the same thing back to them, but you are incorrect that there is anything I can do. You cannot claim that if only I would PvP or grief back, these sorts of tactics would stop. That's not how it has ever worked in any PvP game. When you subscribe to PvP you subscribe to that style of play fully; there is no room for other play. Aggression provokes counter aggression provokes ever increasing conflict that only ends when someone gets bored and stops playing. I've been there before, and I basically don't have the kind of free time necessary for constant vigilance.

This isn't a real survival situation and we all have real lives we must attend to, ergo, some compromise will occur.

I am trying to espouse a system that doesn't rob PvPers completely of their ability to effectively do what they want. You seem to be espousing a "PvPers get to have free reign, everyone else needs to GTFO" system, and that's the wrong answer, buddy. If you aren't interested in meeting the "carebears" halfway, then the likelihood that everyone walks away unhappy is that much more likely.

[Kiriath]

Have you ever seen a tree grow out of a stump that would be useful for anything in any short amount of time, in real life?

Have you ever just poured gasoline on a stump and burned it out?

I agree that it should take longer than a second to destroy things, and I think that applies to everything on the ground, piles, logs, stumps, rocks, etc.

burning a stump out with gasoline? lol have you actually tried this?

[Liil]

Thats where you're wrong. The kind of change you want is accommodating to YOUR playstyle, not everyones. Least of all people who aren't scared of fighting back, which im assuming you must be, because you never mentioned your attempt to fight back, deforest their outlying area, grief them back, etc. Instead of dealing with your personal issues personally, you want the game to change around you. Im sorry this is not a micro-habitat that only affects you and your crafter club.


As a tribe we do not have any grief with anyone, you assume we actually know who did this to us.... We'd be happy to fight back if we knew who the offending people where. However as we are Euro players, this act was done over night. An Entire forest removed whilst we were asleep. This in reality is not possible and is the point we are trying to get accross.

[darkbladed]

In a game like this anything (non exploit) is a viable tactic; though it is a real douche move.

[tehreaver]

HAHAAHHAHA

[Koll]

The trees should grow back in 24 hours. That would solve the problem quickly without any need of coding.

nah that would be too fast; trees should regrow fully after a full year or the spring of the following season.

[vorg]

On the subject of out of control pvp, We had a guy come by yesterday that had been pk'd by a group. They took everything cept the gift weapon which is protected. We gave him tools and baskets and he tried to go back to his place. But on the way, 4 jumped him again and again took everything. This is no pvp, this is grefing. What's more, pk'ers set up their char stats for this which gives them an advantage over players who set up for crafting and they normally play pvp games giving them real life skill advantages.

What most games end up doing in an effort to force people to play fair and to play the game instead of game machanics is give players some kind of pvp switch. If they choose not to pvp, they can't be pk'd.

[Dubanka]

On the subject of out of control pvp, We had a guy come by yesterday that had been pk'd by a group. They took everything cept the gift weapon which is protected. We gave him tools and baskets and he tried to go back to his place. But on the way, 4 jumped him again and again took everything. This is no pvp, this is grefing. What's more, pk'ers set up their char stats for this which gives them an advantage over players who set up for crafting and they normally play pvp games giving them real life skill advantages.

What most games end up doing in an effort to force people to play fair and to play the game instead of game machanics is give players some kind of pvp switch. If they choose not to pvp, they can't be pk'd.

does he not know how to sprint? i mean you can sprint forever. the only way you die in this game is if you decide to fight and either decide to go down swinging or you decide to disengage too late.
did he not set permissions on his pack? or did they fix that?
did he not pay attention to the world around him as he was traipsing across it? I mean if i hear someone doing something around me i go into alert more, drop into combat stance, hit stealth and start peaking around to see if i have some unwelcome visitors. That was i can decide if i want to play or not.

OH NOOOS IM a VICTIM.

re: trees. Valid tactic. Needs a counter. No amount of 'stam use' or 'time to kill sthe stump' will ever quell the tears of someone who gets slashed and burned. We need the ability to replant them. Terrarorm: Turn field. Logging: harvest sappling. foraging: plant sappling. ta da. forest anywhere you want it. which of course has it's own tacticial implications.

Empower the player to combat assholishness, don't restrict the ability to be an asshole.

[mgilbrtsn]

I think its a valid tactic. It sucks, but valid. Makes you defend what is yours. This is the apocalypse and there should be some 'danger' involved.

[Sirius]

burning a stump out with gasoline? lol have you actually tried this?

Heh.. was gonna say.. this does not work. The closest I've seen is a product where you have to drill giant holes deep down into the stump and fill them with a special mixture of petroleum products, and burn it down that way.

Hell, a gasoline fire won't even kill an ant mound.

[Dubanka]

burning a stump out with gasoline? lol have you actually tried this?

many moons ago... big oak tree stump vs. teen ager.
weapons:
pick axe
sledge axe
double bitted axe
crow bar
shovel
hand saw

1 weekend, many blisters, no glory, no loot. just a big hole.

[madea]

re: trees. Valid tactic. Needs a counter. No amount of 'stam use' or 'time to kill sthe stump' will ever quell the tears of someone who gets slashed and burned. We need the ability to replant them. Terrarorm: Turn field. Logging: harvest sappling. foraging: plant sappling. ta da. forest anywhere you want it. which of course has it's own tacticial implications.

Empower the player to combat assholishness, don't restrict the ability to be an asshole.

In my opinion, it needs both. Both making it more difficult to do that level of destruction and give the players the ability to counter the damage.

In real life, taking a forest down like that would require significant motivation, effort and resources, and lots to replant and restructure it not to mention even more time for growth.

In the game's simplified equation, destroying the forest = very little effort, while reconstructing the forest = almost as much effort as wood harvesting.

So, you're just making the players who want the resources work even harder while rewarding dickery wholesale.


Again, I have no problem with PvP, but it's wildly unreasonable to make it significantly more difficult for non-PVPers to do their thing.

[Hefe18]

Well since I just clear cut a forest on a mountain today I guess I'll weigh in on how I feel about these tactics. Normally I don't do things like this, it is sort of a dick move but atm there is not many fun things for me to do with the lag and the way combat is so crappy.

I am hoping Devs see what can be done and fix it, but how to fix it of course is the question. Of course I'd love that we could siege during an allotted window of time so that way if you had a problem with me destroying all of your stuff then either you could do something about it or I'm sure you could find someone else to help you.

Of course something even resembling that isn't supposed to come in till after Prelude and that would be assuming they fix combat.

They should make the respawn faster than whatever it is now but still not so quick as a day because then it really doesn't send a message to the people that you've destroyed their stuff.

I could live with having to burn the stump and having to bring some reagents to get it going like having to build a fire.

One last thing, no more real life comparisons that road leads to nowhere but circles of argument.

[pendergraft]

I know what you mean, Hefe. When I'm bored in real life I disembowel cats. Dick move, sure, but hey. When you're bored, you're bored.

[Sirius]

Lol pretty extreme response, brosef.

U mad?

[Vicid]

This is just too funny. If you want to find Hefe accountable for his actions you better hope they implement tribal warfare for all tribes. Otherwise someone can make a peace tribe and spend all their time cutting down tress (As well as a few other actions that destroy resources) and (besides killing them) there isn't really away to stop them.

[vorg]

does he not know how to sprint? i mean you can sprint forever. the only way you die in this game is if you decide to fight and either decide to go down swinging or you decide to disengage too late.
did he not set permissions on his pack? or did they fix that?
did he not pay attention to the world around him as he was traipsing across it? I mean if i hear someone doing something around me i go into alert more, drop into combat stance, hit stealth and start peaking around to see if i have some unwelcome visitors. That was i can decide if i want to play or not.

OH NOOOS IM a VICTIM.

re: trees. Valid tactic. Needs a counter. No amount of 'stam use' or 'time to kill sthe stump' will ever quell the tears of someone who gets slashed and burned. We need the ability to replant them. Terrarorm: Turn field. Logging: harvest sappling. foraging: plant sappling. ta da. forest anywhere you want it. which of course has it's own tacticial implications.

Empower the player to combat assholishness, don't restrict the ability to be an asshole.

As I said, pk'ers setup their char for pk'ing. THeir attributes make them stronger and faster. Yes you can sprint, but so can the attacker and the attacker can out run you. And if you found a way to sprint for ever, then you are cheating exploting a bug you have found. sprint uses stam faster. and the attackers can sprint also and because they are faster, can sprint faster.

[Saolite]

Rather than implementing features in an attempt to limit player freedom, give more options to the players.

Agriculture, however and whenever its implemented, should be capable of replanting trees ( which seems to be the main issue ). Agriculture isn't just wheat or what have you, after all. It's only natural that it should deal with the tree issue, as well. Granted this might not be implemented for some time, but no one was realistically looking for some hot-fix over night, were they?

[Sirius]

{MOD EDIT}

I found this to be both disturbing and off-topic. :confused:

[pendergraft]

This is just too funny. If you want to find Hefe accountable for his actions you better hope they implement tribal warfare for all tribes. Otherwise someone can make a peace tribe and spend all their time cutting down tress (As well as a few other actions that destroy resources) and (besides killing them) there isn't really away to stop them.

I don't want to hold Hefe accountable for his actions. I want Hefe to hold himself accountable. He admits that the act is deplorable, and yet he did it anyway. For fun. I'm afraid I must go against his advisement and compare this to teenagers knocking over mailboxes. Indeed, it is disturbing, Sirius. Quite so. The point is that you're above this kind of behavior. If I found myself a part of a guild that endorsed or defended it, I would seriously reconsider my decision to be a member. Don't let a group think for you.

I also don't want my message to be misconstrued. I'm not saying that players shouldn't be able to do things like this. I am saying that, if they're mature and rational individuals, they shouldn't do things like this. I'm personally having trouble comprehending what type of person could dedicate hours of their time to chopping down another tribe's trees just to spite them. It's lunacy.

[cod3r_]

Simple fix.. If it's in your tribe land save the guys name/tribe who did this so that when the tribe leader logs on he is alerted who demolished his resources.. Then the tribe can hire a mercenary to find the guy/tribe and bind camp them into oblivion.. or other major retaliations can happen. game is about territory control after all..

Since the game is a lot about crafting and it takes a while to transport stuff anyway you don't necessarily want to increase the time "gathering" takes. This would make a core feature tedious. (See Darkfall)...

This problem should be solved by the players.. it's up to the devs to give the tools to do so (combat upgrade, sieging, and at least knowing who knocked down your kingdom)

[Vicid]

I don't want to hold Hefe accountable for his actions. I want Hefe to hold himself accountable. He admits that the act is deplorable, and yet he did it anyway. For fun. I'm afraid I must go against his advisement and compare this to teenagers knocking over mailboxes. Indeed, it is disturbing, Sirius. Quite so. The point is that you're above this kind of behavior. If I found myself a part of a guild that endorsed or defended it, I would seriously reconsider my decision to be a member. Don't let a group think for you.

I also don't want my message to be misconstrued. I'm not saying that players shouldn't be able to do things like this. I am saying that, if they're mature and rational individuals, they shouldn't do things like this. I'm personally having trouble comprehending what type of person could dedicate hours of their time to chopping down another tribe's trees just to spite them. It's lunacy.


It is fun and this is a game. The devs put tree cutting and log/stump destruction in the game. It isn't the same as say, spamming chat with racial slurs. Obviously players are expected not to do that and it is against the ToS. Cutting down a tree isn't.

[madea]

Rather than implementing features in an attempt to limit player freedom, give more options to the players.

Agriculture, however and whenever its implemented, should be capable of replanting trees ( which seems to be the main issue ). Agriculture isn't just wheat or what have you, after all. It's only natural that it should deal with the tree issue, as well. Granted this might not be implemented for some time, but no one was realistically looking for some hot-fix over night, were they?

While that "don't limit, give more" phrase a nice, catchy phrase to bandy about, it's not the magic wand solution you seem to think it is?

Unless replanting the trees and cutting them down for harvest takes exactly the same amount of time and mouseclicks to cut them down, delete them and all delete the stumps, all you're doing is making more work for the wrong people. In other words, you're not really suggesting freedom, you're suggesting a punishment (because actually harvesting resources is work, not fun) for the players who didn't do anything.

If reforesting is possible but difficult while destroying the things remains the same, it can't even be used as a countertactic; if I surrounded an enemy tribe with lots of trees, it's so easy to cut them down it's not even a minor inconvenience.

Without any meaningful form of retaliation, there is - further - literally no incentive not to do it. Even if we tried to PvP a resolution, there's nothing effective that can be done to discourage further attempts; the damage is done and we can't watch those trees 24 hours. If it's easy and there are no consequences, players will do it. This kind of tactic should require planning and calculated risk of vulnerability, making it a purposeful action meant to actively engage other tribes. It might be a dick move, but it's a dick move you can tactically admire.

Right now it's something to do because you're bored and it's funny, which encourages psychopathic behavior. How is that going to sustain the game world?

[santoclawz]

I think in its current state its fine, the game world is huge and while the population is decent at the moment the world is by no means full, people need to spread out more where i am currently living i have access to tons of trees some junk and stone, no sand but i can deal with that, also from where i live i can see into a basin with huge amounts of junk and alot of people living right ontop of the stuff, and not a tree to be seen in the basin. So far none of my trees have been touched and i doubt they will be because i dont live elbow to elbow with everyone even though that seems to be the thing to do.

[Hefe18]

I don't plan on doing it much more, I really don't get that much jollies from it. I'm just doing it a little now because I can and I can't properly PK those out in the world because of the state the game is in.

Thought I'd stir the pot a little bit tho.

With the current state of the game two people can just go out chop trees far away since I chopped all yours down, load up your buddy with wood crafted things, kill him to send him back to town!

This could become tedious if you need long wood sheets but maybe you'll just craft stone things or metal anyway.

/Paul Bunyan signing out

[crakhed]

Think to consider the possibility that someone just needed a lot of wood?
This may be the dumbest post Ive seen to date, and I sure hope the dev's dont cater to ppl who had their view altered.

[mrcalhou]

I don't want to hold Hefe accountable for his actions. I want Hefe to hold himself accountable. He admits that the act is deplorable, and yet he did it anyway. For fun. I'm afraid I must go against his advisement and compare this to teenagers knocking over mailboxes. Indeed, it is disturbing, Sirius. Quite so. The point is that you're above this kind of behavior. If I found myself a part of a guild that endorsed or defended it, I would seriously reconsider my decision to be a member. Don't let a group think for you.

I also don't want my message to be misconstrued. I'm not saying that players shouldn't be able to do things like this. I am saying that, if they're mature and rational individuals, they shouldn't do things like this. I'm personally having trouble comprehending what type of person could dedicate hours of their time to chopping down another tribe's trees just to spite them. It's lunacy.
I think you need to come down from that pedestal.

[AndyI]

I had one idiot decide that to taunt me into coming out of my camp to fight, he'd chop trees down onto my camp. The problem being that then you can't open your baskets to be able to get an axe out in order to chop up the tree to remove it. It's just pathetic. He didn't even ask me to come out and fight, first I knew anything there was a tree on top of me.

There are way too many idiots in this game for my liking. People talk about being PVP or Carebears but in reality, most don't have a problem with PVP if the idiots cannot grief and force you to play the way they want you to. And whenever an argument like this comes up, if you're not happy with the grieifing or the style of play then you're a Carebear which just gets old very quickly. I enjoy PVP too but I play the game in the spirit it's meant to be and not running around being an idiot and that's what most object to tbh. It is a simple fact that you cannot be online 24hrs a day so the argument about RL is a pointless one. If this was a RL apocalypse we'd all be behaving a lot differently. If PVP was in the spirit of the game, then nobody would ever post a thread up about this kind of nonsense. PVP vs Carebear is not the issue and never really has been.

Quite simply put, if PVP'ers would just target people out on the open world and not behave like mindless silly children then nobody would ever have any issues and the subject would never come up. The problem is that some of the PVP'ers are just idiots and there are no consequences in game for the immature muppets that are roaming some of the areas. Until game mechanics are such that griefing cannot be done with no consequences then I'll choose to vote with my feet and go and play something else. PVP games always go this way because of a handful of PVP'ers that think doing stupid nonsense is part of the game.

There's just no getting around the fact that these people are immature idiots. For the record I have no problem with PVP, I just wont waste my time for no reason when it is so easy for these people to try to force you to play a game the way they want it played like a little childs playground.

It was hardcore PVP'ers on IRC that were being rude and insulting about the Devs and the efforts to fix the lag and are always the ones that seem to insult first on these forums. I just don't need to spend my spare time with people that are incapable of growing up and see no harm in the stupid local chat smack talk or hurling abuse around. Sadly it seems these people will always be the ones dictating FFA game styles. gl to them, they can only do one thing, harm the game. By forcing the devs to act, they put off other features. Real Clever, NOT.

[Rougie]

Depriving one's enemy of resources is just as legitimate as killing one's enemy.

It doesn't make sense that one should be able to kill and loot one's enemy, but not be allowed to chop trees / deprive one's enemy of resources. Be consistent, or shut up.

[madea]

Depriving one's enemy of resources is just as legitimate as killing one's enemy.

It doesn't make sense that one should be able to kill and loot one's enemy, but not be allowed to chop trees / deprive one's enemy of resources. Be consistent, or shut up.

Setting aside the fact that "enemy" to PKers seems to mean "everyone other than me and my buddies", or the fact - which everyone seems to ignore - that victory is completely ephemeral in a gamespace, depriving an enemy of resources is not the complaint.

The complaint lies with the complete and utter ease of doing so compared to actually harvesting them, combined with the lack of any real, meaningful avenue of retaliation. If they destroy all our trees and we destroy all their trees, and people just go to other places, craft wooden items in place and kill each other to warp back to the totem... how does that lead to a viable, sustainable game world?

If the purpose is territory control, then the tools to allow effective control in place are necessary. It's mostly a balance issue; death is a pretty effective equalizer in the long run, and in the game that factor has been placed to "infinity". You can't just leave it like that and expect things to work on any sort of long-term basis.

[AndyI]

Madea, you're quite right however I don't think they really understand the difference. The lunatics are running the asylum because there's no means to prevent it. It'll just become yet another game with lots of pk'ers running around griefing the hell out of people because it's 'fun' for them regardless of what it means in terms of balance. I enjoy PVP but not idiocy and griefing. Until mechanics are in place to balance this out, it's just an idiots playground.

[maelwydd]

Madea, you're quite right however I don't think they really understand the difference. The lunatics are running the asylum because there's no means to prevent it. It'll just become yet another game with lots of pk'ers running around griefing the hell out of people because it's 'fun' for them regardless of what it means in terms of balance. I enjoy PVP but not idiocy and griefing. Until mechanics are in place to balance this out, it's just an idiots playground.

Agree with this ^^

[AndyI]

Just to be clear though, if that's what the majority want, then I'm fine with that, it's just not for me.

[Rougie]

depriving an enemy of resources is not the complaint.

The complaint lies with the complete and utter ease of doing so compared to actually harvesting them, combined with the lack of any real, meaningful avenue of retaliation

So what if it's easier? You're chopping a tree down, chopping it into logs, and destroying the logs; that's meant to be alot easier than chopping a tree down, chopping it into logs, and dragging all the logs back home. In fact, it's entirely realistic. What you want though, is an unrealistic gameplay where the former takes just as long as the latter, if not longer. Sorry, but I can't support that, because I advocate realism in games, and I'd prefer that the deforestation tactic was not sacrificed for the sake of productive efforts with logs. I like the system as it is, despite all your reasoning to the contrary.

[maelwydd]

Just to be clear though, if that's what the majority want, then I'm fine with that, it's just not for me.

Well the reason I came here was because the devs stated that while the game does have a ffa pvp sanbox setup they dont want it to be a gankfest (ala darkfall, MO etc....) and will not allow that to happen. The second that happens or I feel the devs no longer want to balance pvp/pve then I am gone. While asst destruction is a legitimate tactic, until there is a counter to it then it is is just not balanced. And as long as there is balance I will accept whatever hardships the game will offer.


So what if it's easier? You're chopping a tree down, chopping it into logs, and destroying the logs; that's meant to be alot easier than chopping a tree down, chopping it into logs, and dragging all the logs back home. In fact, it's entirely realistic. What you want though, is an unrealistic gameplay where the former takes just as long as the latter, if not longer. Sorry, but I can't support that, because I advocate realism in games, and I'd prefer that the deforestation tactic was not sacrificed for the sake of productive efforts with logs. I like the system as it is, despite all your reasoning to the contrary.

Have you ever tried to chop a tree down? Then get rid of all the branches? Then try to dig up the stump and then destroy that?

That is a hell of a lot of work and if you want realism then the current system isn't even wildly close to it.

[Jadzia]

Just to be clear though, if that's what the majority want, then I'm fine with that, it's just not for me.

I agree with everything you said, there are way too many idiots in the game. I hope the devs will implement the PK consequences asap, and I hope they will fix the deforestation issue as well. I'm not worried though since PKers can't really do anything right now...its easy to runaway from attacks, and even if they kill you they can't loot your bags if you set the permission properly. If you jump into water before dieing they can't even loot the stuffs you are wearing. I guess thats why they cut trees, since this is the only thing they can do to annoy others. I'm pretty sure that these type of players will leave soon after the implementation of PK penalties.

[Larsa]

Well the reason I came here was because the devs stated that while the game does have a ffa pvp sanbox setup they dont want it to be a gankfest (ala darkfall, MO etc....) and will not allow that to happen. ...I also agree with you, however: what the developers have said about their vision is not what is currently implemented.

Xsyon currently is a FFA PvP game with loot and no alignment or consequences for PK-ing, almost the same game mechanic that Darkfall has (or had, I don't follow the development over there). Combine that with the current combat mechanics (that favour an attacking combat-oriented character build) and it's obvious why Xsyon has attracted a large number of players from Darkfall and Mortal Online.

[AndyI]

I don't have a problem with being attacked and being looted, I have a problem with the numbers of complete and utter idiots and the griefing. I didn't think it would be an issue but clearly that's all some tribes care about and it's just not my cup of tea. Local chat is a problem too.I'll end up ignoring most people in my area at this rate :)

As some have said already, Local encompases too large an area. It's no different to what global was now with the land becomming quite populated (also much more quickly than I expected).

I guess it's just too much to ask of some people to be sensible while the devs get more into the game.

[maelwydd]

I also agree with you, however: what the developers have said about their vision is not what is currently implemented.

Xsyon currently is a FFA PvP game with loot and no alignment or consequences for PK-ing, almost the same game mechanic that Darkfall has (or had, I don't follow the development over there). Combine that with the current combat mechanics (that favour an attacking combat-oriented character build) and it's obvious why Xsyon has attracted a large number of players from Darkfall and Mortal Online.

Sure but untill they state clearly "we want a pvp gankfest game just like MO or DF" or it appears they are no longer developing the game that way I will stick around.

[Sirius]

If this was a RL apocalypse we'd all be behaving a lot differently.

The bulk of your comments in this thread seem to be insulting the intelligence of those with very different gameplay preferences than yours, and don't especially deserve any response (other than to be noted for your choice of debate "tactic").

However, my curiosity was piqued by the above-quoted comment. How, exactly, do you think people would behave in a post-apocalyptic wasteland?

For what it's worth, every author of fiction whom I'm aware of that has addressed the subject seems to think that life is chaotic and horrifying after the bombs drop, and that people are quite vicious to one another. It's generally depicted as a violent, anarchistic nightmare, not a heart-warming tale of human compassion and cooperation.

Just saying.. if you're hitching your wagon to "realism", I'm not sure this is the position to be taking.

[cod3r_]

Sure but untill they state clearly "we want a pvp gankfest game just like MO or DF" or it appears they are no longer developing the game that way I will stick around.

what exactly are you trying to suggest? It shouldn't be FFA??? or worse there shouldn't be PVP at all? How are they going to control who players kill or how many trees they chop down? Game is in early stages of release. Once good and evil actually mean something and has consequences, once the combat mechanics are in, and once tribal warfare is in.. the game will be different.

[Sirius]

He admits that the act is deplorable, and yet he did it anyway. For fun. ... Indeed, it is disturbing, Sirius. Quite so. The point is that you're above this kind of behavior. If I found myself a part of a guild that endorsed or defended it, I would seriously reconsider my decision to be a member. Don't let a group think for you.

I think you are over-reacting and that your use of the word "deplorable" here is inexcusably liberal.

If we were talking about cheats or some genuinely disturbing behavior, I'd be questioning my allegiance. Up until that point, I'll take my guildies' side even if I disagree with the way they're playing.

A bit of vandalism that is probably not going to have a lasting impact on anybody's game does not even come close to worrying me.

[maelwydd]

what exactly are you trying to suggest? It shouldn't be FFA??? or worse there shouldn't be PVP at all? How are they going to control who players kill or how many trees they chop down? Game is in early stages of release. Once good and evil actually mean something and has consequences, once the combat mechanics are in, and once tribal warfare is in.. the game will be different.

I am talking about what the developers have stated their vision is.

PvP WITH consequences. Open ffa PvP with the ability to make defences for youself and your land/property not just to be able to attack. To make moral choices and live by those choices. To build a world and see if civilisation can succeed.

If I JUST want PvP there are better, free PvP games around. I personally don't need another mindless PvP gankfest as I have followed a number of promising games that give a rich environment that just turns into another 'quakefest' disguised as a sandbox.

So yes, I want all those things, it is just a pity that some people are just using the time it takes for development to get these things in place to act like utter dicks knowing full well that if the game had all the structure promised they wouldn't be here.

[Sorakin]

This tactic is only viable because of stupid pre-order weapons, safe zones, and no way to remove a griefing neighbor's totem. Any band-aid to the tree regrowth system would be a short term solution that wouldn't address the real reason why they can do this in the first place.

[mrcalhou]

This tactic is only viable because of stupid pre-order weapons, safe zones, and no way to remove a griefing neighbor's totem. Any band-aid to the tree regrowth system would be a short term solution that wouldn't address the real reason why they can do this in the first place.

That they can do this is not a problem. That it can be done so easily is a problem.

I think they should greatly increase the time it takes to cut down a tree and then have all trees respawn at the same time, so that it'll take any one player, or group of players, a while to deforest an entire area.

[Soulwanderer]

In game PvP consequences won't answer your complaints on issues like this. Even when they're brought in they will most likely not be a hugely preventative mechanic, and if they are too heavy handed it will drive a lot of players away which will tank the income the game generates.

The real problem is that at the moment, players are not given the ability to defend or undo things like this, and those that want to control their territory aren't given means other than what's currently implemented to make people decide they'd prefer new neighbors. I get that realism is what the devs are after, but if real life were so entertaining we'd all be outside right now. Something along the lines of a tracking system that tells you who's close to you, or maybe a minimap that's effective only within 3 times the diameter of your tribal area that'll show you enemy movements. Those are tools the devs can implement that will give players more control and defense on and near their homes that will allow players some protection opportunities.

Afterward, Sieging is going to be the most important things to add. Leaving our guild out of the conversation (because we love siege warfare), when the consequence of actions may be that the people you're ticking off can lay siege to and destroy/take over your town I think you'll find most of the players will be a little more careful about what they do. As most people aren't very familiar with siege style play, the thing to remember is that any piece of game play can be made fun and viable with the right mechanics. If the first thing you think of when hearing about siege style play is waking up to find your city torn down with no one around to defend... well there are ample ways to implement it so that it doesn't happen that way. Brainstorm some mechanic ideas, post them, and see what they turn into.

[AndyI]

The bulk of your comments in this thread seem to be insulting the intelligence of those with very different gameplay preferences than yours, and don't especially deserve any response (other than to be noted for your choice of debate "tactic").

However, my curiosity was piqued by the above-quoted comment. How, exactly, do you think people would behave in a post-apocalyptic wasteland?

For what it's worth, every author of fiction whom I'm aware of that has addressed the subject seems to think that life is chaotic and horrifying after the bombs drop, and that people are quite vicious to one another. It's generally depicted as a violent, anarchistic nightmare, not a heart-warming tale of human compassion and cooperation.

Just saying.. if you're hitching your wagon to "realism", I'm not sure this is the position to be taking.

I'm not hitching my wagon to realism, others are and in RL whilst it would be chaotic, chaotic is not what I'm talking about. fwiw, I'm talking about a minority of players that just want to push their style on others and that is griefing not PVP, I'm not pushing mine on anyone, in fact I said that if that's what the majority want, so be it. I'm happy to do something else with my time and as such won't bother commenting further. People know what I'm talking about. gl everyone, I hope the game turns out to be a huge success.

[Sirius]

I don't think it's as bad as you're making it sound.. certainly not worth a /quit thread one week after release.

I also think if took the time and energy that would otherwise be focused on insulting the intelligence of people who play for confrontation, and instead devoted it to a bit of revenge, you might see a silver lining where you only saw a cloud before.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

I'm not hitching my wagon to realism, others are and in RL whilst it would be chaotic, chaotic is not what I'm talking about. fwiw, I'm talking about a minority of players that just want to push their style on others and that is griefing not PVP, I'm not pushing mine on anyone, in fact I said that if that's what the majority want, so be it. I'm happy to do something else with my time and as such won't bother commenting further. People know what I'm talking about. gl everyone, I hope the game turns out to be a huge success.

Another "I'll just take my ball and go home if I don't get my way" post. Obviously what these guys are doing is lame, but threatening to go home if they don't play by your rules is pretty sad. Give it time I'm sure the admins will figure something out. Right now destroying things is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too easy. It's not being used as a legitimate war tactic if there is no war and it's just a bunch of idiot kids trying to run off players for the lolz. I think that starter weapons being removed would at least slow this type of behavior.

[mrcalhou]

I'm not hitching my wagon to realism, others are and in RL whilst it would be chaotic, chaotic is not what I'm talking about. fwiw, I'm talking about a minority of players that just want to push their style on others and that is griefing not PVP, I'm not pushing mine on anyone, in fact I said that if that's what the majority want, so be it. I'm happy to do something else with my time and as such won't bother commenting further. People know what I'm talking about. gl everyone, I hope the game turns out to be a huge success.

I don't see it the same way as you. I do see a problem but I also see an easily fixable problem. I don't agree with your use of the word griefer, while technically it can be called griefing, many other things can as well. One person's idea of griefing is another person's idea of tactics. Now, I'm not saying that they should leave it as is. On the contrary, I've even proposed an idea to counteract it--but not to eliminate it. This is an emergent-gameplay MMO as I see it, and as such, I think tools should be given to the player-base to eliminate "greifing" in as large of an area as a player or group of players can influence.

The only thing that I think should be tweaked is the time-scale of such actions. Not the rules surronding them.

[AndyI]

I also think if took the time and energy that would otherwise be focused on insulting the intelligence of people who play for confrontation, and instead devoted it to a bit of revenge, you might see a silver lining where you only saw a cloud before.

You're probably right and I have since calmed down and can see the funny side of it now. I was very angry at the time for several reasons

1.) I couldn't do anything about it and had to ask a neighbouring tribe to help (axe was in a bin I could not open as the tree prevented it)
2.) I'd only just thrown (seconds earlier) away 30 axes I'd crafted to level (adding insult to injury)
3.) Some people are not content with full loot PVP that they have to go around being annoying too.

But tbf it's not just this incident and maybe I'm just getting cantankerous in my old age but I just don't find the rudeness and obnoxious behaviour of some people very funny. I don't understand the mentality especially as many are adults not children. But it's not an 'I'm quiting because they wont play the way I want' deal because no game means that much to me, I'm quiting because I'm just no longer tolerant of the attitudes that seem quite prevalent these days where it seems to be acceptable to be a complete and utter ****. One poor guy took a torrent of abuse just before launch from some homophobic idiot witnessed by a lot of people online at the time. It's just not necessary in a game. Yes I guess I'm becomming a Victor Meldrew.

[Hefe18]

What is funny is I really doubt much impact has been had by what I've done and I'm not sure how many other have been going around destroying stumps like me. I've already seen trees go back and really I've probably only destroyed about 50 trees.

I even fought some guys after destroying some trees, killed the first and died to the second. The only thing that did suck was the lag made it a roll of the dice but I was happy for my ride home.

Whoever said that once consequences are in for PK you will see things like this stop, that's silly. I WANT CONSEQUENCES! Lack of consequences is why I hate playing WoW, I wish I could kill my own faction all the time for being idiots or for being a loot ninja.

Also, if someone who sees me cutting down trees tries to reason with me ala offer me something, I'd probably accept.

I may be taking some of your resources but what if you took the spot I wanted my totem at? You have now just ruined my gameplay experience without any PvP. PvP and PvE players do need each other. I used to be not into PvP until I got that first rush of running away from a kill then learning how to fight back years ago. I really hope the bag permissions get fixed soon, going out and bashing trees without risk doesn't give me that rush I want.

Maybe I'll stop the tree bashing unless I see someone near a camp or until bag permissions are set. This way you have some recourse against my actions. I agree with Soulwanderer who said it would be nice to have a minimap to show enemies encroaching on something like 3x your tribe radius. I want people to find me, usually I thought the giant trees falling would bring them outta the safe zone.

[maelwydd]

Have to say I really wonder about you VD guys, if you are trying to RP being dicks in the game you sure do a good job at it. But sometimes when you write posts I believe you know absolutely nothing about RP.

[warmslumbers13]

I think things in tribal areas should be safe including stumps until of course they lift the safe zones and sieges are allowed.

On the other hand, if you go off your tribal land and say, cut down a tree for logs those logs are now open for anyone to do anything with. I don't think that "safe" should be extended for an example, that if you cut down a tree outside your safe zone only you or your tribe can access those logs, this doesn't happen in real life. This includes taking said logs or destroying said logs. This also teaches a lesson that, if you harvest outside your tribal safe zone one needs to move those resources inside your tribe borders ASAP.

It is just like PvP. You are safe in your tribal area, you are not safe outside. The same goes for resources. We all learned this in beta over the last year. (If you weren't in early beta, you are learning this now)

Remember, this is an open sandbox game and there are many was for one to play it, to include brigands, peaceful tribes, solo play (to an extent), warring tribes... hence the good, neutral and evil standings.

In saying this I am sure the devs are trying to make this world as real as possible to include usage of the resources like, trees, animals, junk piles etc., real and functional as possible. What happens in the real world when all the animals are killed off? Now I understand some balance to a point here, but this isn't a a controlled theme park MMO.

I am sure what is coming next is that people will complain that the junk piles are gone in their area, the tribe next to them is to large and has to many people to collect resources, there's not enough fish, the animals can't re-spawn/grow fast enough, distance to travel to gather stuff is to far, why isn't there a Walmart... it will happen. I haven't even started on the griefing and PvP aspects.

This is not a caring and sharing game. It's a post apocalyptic open sandbox MMO with basic rules and guidelines to include taking or destroying of resources, making enemies or allies, etc.. These resources are a precious commodity so use them wisely. Look at our real world around us. It you are expecting to go camping, build your fire, set up some tents, sing kumbaya and not be bothered... this is the wrong game for you.

agree +1 , seriously people complained about sand not being next to them, and now there are complaining about trees.. go on a logging expedition and make it like a fun tribe event.

[boomer0901]

You're probably right and I have since calmed down and can see the funny side of it now. I was very angry at the time for several reasons

1.) I couldn't do anything about it and had to ask a neighbouring tribe to help (axe was in a bin I could not open as the tree prevented it)
2.) I'd only just thrown (seconds earlier) away 30 axes I'd crafted to level (adding insult to injury)
3.) Some people are not content with full loot PVP that they have to go around being annoying too.

But tbf it's not just this incident and maybe I'm just getting cantankerous in my old age but I just don't find the rudeness and obnoxious behaviour of some people very funny. I don't understand the mentality especially as many are adults not children. But it's not an 'I'm quiting because they wont play the way I want' deal because no game means that much to me, I'm quiting because I'm just no longer tolerant of the attitudes that seem quite prevalent these days where it seems to be acceptable to be a complete and utter ****. One poor guy took a torrent of abuse just before launch from some homophobic idiot witnessed by a lot of people online at the time. It's just not necessary in a game. Yes I guess I'm becomming a Victor Meldrew.

I agree with you 100% Andy, this is probably my last MMO when I decide to call it quits, the attitude of adult and child alike is appalling. There is a serious lack of morals (or even more preciously common-sense) on this planet and I aint talking any of that religious crap either.

[Saolite]

You're probably right and I have since calmed down and can see the funny side of it now. I was very angry at the time for several reasons

1.) I couldn't do anything about it and had to ask a neighbouring tribe to help (axe was in a bin I could not open as the tree prevented it)
2.) I'd only just thrown (seconds earlier) away 30 axes I'd crafted to level (adding insult to injury)
3.) Some people are not content with full loot PVP that they have to go around being annoying too.

But tbf it's not just this incident and maybe I'm just getting cantankerous in my old age but I just don't find the rudeness and obnoxious behaviour of some people very funny. I don't understand the mentality especially as many are adults not children. But it's not an 'I'm quiting because they wont play the way I want' deal because no game means that much to me, I'm quiting because I'm just no longer tolerant of the attitudes that seem quite prevalent these days where it seems to be acceptable to be a complete and utter ****. One poor guy took a torrent of abuse just before launch from some homophobic idiot witnessed by a lot of people online at the time. It's just not necessary in a game. Yes I guess I'm becomming a Victor Meldrew.


I agree with you. There's no need for anyone, child or adult, to act the way that some people do in this, or any, game. This is an unfortunate product of all humanity. MMO's are not the only place you are going to find people who, in all reality, find joy in ruining other peoples experiences. Anything that involves interaction with another person, there will eventually be a time you find those people who will grief, harass, taunt, demean, and otherwise do everything in their power to ruin your day.

From Call of Duty to Battlefield to World of Warcraft to Xsyon to Minecraft to Forza and beyond. This extends to any game where other people get involved.


I don't know why people suddenly get some internet bravado and think it's okay to be a complete and utter dick to anyone and everyone. Maybe it's the fact that they can't get punched through a screen. Maybe they feel their secure due to anonymity. I really don't know.

I do have my suspicions as to why people, even adults, are like that. But I won't voice them on the open forum. In any case, it's not something to quit over -- just don't let those people get to you. Ignore / mute them and move on, play with people you enjoy playing with.

I still think the fix for eco-terrorism is implementing Agriculture, though. A good fix for it -- can just regrow the tree's.

[mrcalhou]

Sometimes I worry about how so many people on this forum want rules to limit the emergent part of this game. Then I just go play Eve and wonder why no other company has gotten that game's balance right.

[xyberviri]

The tree/lumbing mechanic is fine, you need to defend your land even if its not in your tribe area. if some tribe went and cut down your trees then go kill them. i dont mean to sound so negative but its not a playground this is the end of the world starting over its not going to be some nice and friendly land you go and RP that your digging in the trash and people leave you alone. had this really happen it wouldn't be like that either they would have set the forest on fire and the same thing with your camp.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

The tree/lumbing mechanic is fine, you need to defend your land even if its not in your tribe area. if some tribe went and cut down your trees then go kill them. i dont mean to sound so negative but its not a playground this is the end of the world starting over its not going to be some nice and friendly land you go and RP that your digging in the trash and people leave you alone. had this really happen it wouldn't be like that either they would have set the forest on fire and the same thing with your camp.
If someone cut down your trees in the middle of the night; how would you exactly find out who they are and exact your revenge... Now if they were camped outside your tribes PK'ing and slowly leveling your forest then that would be another story.

[XSY001]

The tree/lumbing mechanic is fine, you need to defend your land even if its not in your tribe area. if some tribe went and cut down your trees then go kill them.

I see a lot of arguments being made here that fly in the face of everything we've learned about these games over the past decade. In this scenario, you are suggesting a 24/7 watch which is wholly unrealistic. You're basically defending and advocating the 3AM Zerg - something both players and developers have unanimously agreed is an undesirable scenario.


Those who do not know history are fated to repeat it. Mythic, Origins and CCP learned a ton of this stuff years ago. It's probably worth it to learn from their mistakes and from what they got right, no?

[Haphazard]

Have to say I really wonder about you VD guys, if you are trying to RP being dicks in the game you sure do a good job at it. But sometimes when you write posts I believe you know absolutely nothing about RP.

maelwydd,

The time of apocalypse is at hand. Humanity has been wiped from the earth, except for a small handful of folks alive in the world of xsyon. A group is formed of old friends who decide to band together to see if they can rebuild what they have all lost, planting their totem in a remote part of the world.

Soon, across the river a hundred campfires are burning, with all manner of rabble. They come sniffing around the tribe's campsite, digging through the trash, and felling the trees. Diplomatic parties are sent out to reason with these folks - "there is not enough trash and resources for you here, we ask that you find a place which is not so close to our small town here. With almost 20 souls to feed and clothe, we will need all the meager bounty from the surrounding areas to survive the coming winter."

The homesteaders refused to move, and continued harvesting trees and stealing resources, driving the animals over the mountains and into the deadly green mist. Finally, a war party was formed - "we will starve if we don't remove these interlopers!", however when the war party reached the first homesteaders camp site, which was stocked with booty, some unknown force prevented the tribe from being able to use force, and in fact, they were slaughtered to the man.

A tribal council was convened. "If we don't remove these interlopers, we will not be able to survive." Hefe took it upon himself, "If I deprive them of their close-by lumber to build protective walls, they will need to venture out to harvest lumber, and we will be able to take our revenge." And so Hefe stole out into the night and destroyed tree after tree within sight of any of the camps. He clear cut until his palms bled from the blisters popping on his hands, and yet he continued until not a single tree could be seen across the hillside.

[Dubanka]

/amen

burn.

[Salvadore]

Im falling in LOVE with this community...EPIC THREAD!!!

Did someone encroach on your resources? OH NOOOS...Maybe you should go siege their village and teach them a lesson? Oh wait, you cant. Also, many of you are against that or any ideas involving relative scenarios close to it. God forbid anyone have a consequence for something as atrocious as this type of behavior. Amirite?



Make it so players can't destroy a stump unless its on your land (or tribe's land).

Ok...that's simply going to make me pick a spot outside of someones totem within proper ranges, homestead, THEN do it. Rinse. Repeat. Still no consequences besides my time spent which = pure value to me in tears REAPED by threads like this and in game /crying.


Definitely think it needs to be made a lot harder for 1 person to destroy such a large area as they can now.

Thats fine. My tribe and I will do it as a Tribe function. We obviously cannot siege that adjacent tribe that is stealing our resources right? They also won't come out of their SAFE ZONE to face any risk or consequences for messing with OUR land/resources. Ill pay them back by raping THEIR portion of land. Seems fair, right? My Tribe and I will do this en-masse for as long as it "takes".


The trees should grow back in 24 hours. That would solve the problem quickly without any need of coding.

Another horrible idea from a Hopi member. This would effectively take a limited resource and destroy 100% of its value. You could easily farm the same tree in your SAFE ZONE forever, never having to leave happy hippie town and get beat-up by meanies. Trees dont grow in a day, either by saproling or stump. This would also heavily cater to the non-pvp desireables and "carebears". Another no risk/all gain suggestion which is obviously stemming from a personal desire on how to evolve the game...NOT thinking about the over-all picture of everyone.

Would be pretty annoying if trees grew back EVERY DAY on so many levels: lag from cutting them down daily, visibility intentionally created by strategic city layout builders (eg, clearing area for longer visibility to see incoming enemies), etc.



So, you're just making the players who want the resources work even harder while rewarding dickery wholesale.


WAIT...where's the "reward" for "dickery wholesale"? If I understand properly, they are essentially destroying their own resources as well, right? They are ultimately bringing on their own troubles at same expense. It isnt one sided. They get no REAL reward by doing so...other than some /cry threads/whispers.


Rather than implementing features in an attempt to limit player freedom, give more options to the players.

Agriculture, however and whenever its implemented, should be capable of replanting trees ( which seems to be the main issue ). Agriculture isn't just wheat or what have you, after all. It's only natural that it should deal with the tree issue, as well. Granted this might not be implemented for some time, but no one was realistically looking for some hot-fix over night, were they?

MAJOR +1, only if SAFE ZONES were removed. Else, you would have the ability to farm EVERYTHING from your safezone, macro all day, never have risk of leaving the camp. Unbalanced. Severely limits overall gameplay for everyone.


Addressing the whole MORAL issues involved in doing something of this level of abomination...

LOL U SERIOUS? This is the internet. I dont care how "old" or "mature" YOU are...I PROMISE YOU that, when pushed in game, you'll eventually resort to immature style tactics to combat an enemy you cannot "man-up" and just beat. I've seen your type many times before. If you log into an MMO to be "serious" about your online persona...YER DOING IT WRONG. People will log in for the simple fact to NOT act like they do in RL...thus immaturity, childish behavior, and general ass-hattery. Welcome to the internet!


I don't want to hold Hefe accountable for his actions. I want Hefe to hold himself accountable. He admits that the act is deplorable, and yet he did it anyway. For fun. I'm afraid I must go against his advisement and compare this to teenagers knocking over mailboxes. Indeed, it is disturbing, Sirius. Quite so. The point is that you're above this kind of behavior. If I found myself a part of a guild that endorsed or defended it, I would seriously reconsider my decision to be a member. Don't let a group think for you.

I also don't want my message to be misconstrued. I'm not saying that players shouldn't be able to do things like this. I am saying that, if they're mature and rational individuals, they shouldn't do things like this. I'm personally having trouble comprehending what type of person could dedicate hours of their time to chopping down another tribe's trees just to spite them. It's lunacy.

WOW... all I can really say is LOL. This is only the beginning to these types of "actions". Again, stressing the "no consequences for actions" here. I bet if the tribe he did it to had the ability to do, well, ANYTHING back to him...he would have thought otherwise...right?

*Being somewhat serious (legit) after a great amount of lawls...

Everyone needs trees. For the gain of skill and development of "assets" in game, they should be easy to be cut down and removed. They SHOULD grow back. They SHOULD be able to be planted. They should NOT grow to full capacity in a single day. They SHOULD, after planted, grow to different levels (as they obviously are in game, some are MUCH bigger even of the same type) only by time in game. Example - plant saproling, cannot plant another within x radius, will take maybe 7 full days before maturing into the base and minimum harvestable tree. 2 weeks - next level. 3 weeks - etc. Each level should have a predetermined "quantity amount radius" that is possible to be felled rolled by skill level in logging. ANYONE should be able to cut these down at any time and remove the stump, regardless of location. It should be up to a properly built town/walls to prevent someone from "stealing" this resource. Else, it will be fair game. Sapling "seeds" should be harvestable just like any resource in game probably from a similar type of tree in the same resource zone as "twigs/brush" or whatever it is.

All balance, all fair.

[VeryWiiTee]

Im falling in LOVE with this community...EPIC THREAD!!!

Did someone encroach on your resources? OH NOOOS...Maybe you should go siege their village and teach them a lesson? Oh wait, you cant. Also, many of you are against that or any ideas involving relative scenarios close to it. God forbid anyone have a consequence for something as atrocious as this type of behavior. Amirite?



Ok...that's simply going to make me pick a spot outside of someones totem within proper ranges, homestead, THEN do it. Rinse. Repeat. Still no consequences besides my time spent which = pure value to me in tears REAPED by threads like this and in game /crying.



Thats fine. My tribe and I will do it as a Tribe function. We obviously cannot siege that adjacent tribe that is stealing our resources right? They also won't come out of their SAFE ZONE to face any risk or consequences for messing with OUR land/resources. Ill pay them back by raping THEIR portion of land. Seems fair, right? My Tribe and I will do this en-masse for as long as it "takes".



Another horrible idea from a Hopi member. This would effectively take a limited resource and destroy 100% of its value. You could easily farm the same tree in your SAFE ZONE forever, never having to leave happy hippie town and get beat-up by meanies. Trees dont grow in a day, either by saproling or stump. This would also heavily cater to the non-pvp desireables and "carebears". Another no risk/all gain suggestion which is obviously stemming from a personal desire on how to evolve the game...NOT thinking about the over-all picture of everyone.

Would be pretty annoying if trees grew back EVERY DAY on so many levels: lag from cutting them down daily, visibility intentionally created by strategic city layout builders (eg, clearing area for longer visibility to see incoming enemies), etc.



WAIT...where's the "reward" for "dickery wholesale"? If I understand properly, they are essentially destroying their own resources as well, right? They are ultimately bringing on their own troubles at same expense. It isnt one sided. They get no REAL reward by doing so...other than some /cry threads/whispers.



MAJOR +1, only if SAFE ZONES were removed. Else, you would have the ability to farm EVERYTHING from your safezone, macro all day, never have risk of leaving the camp. Unbalanced. Severely limits overall gameplay for everyone.



LOL U SERIOUS? This is the internet. I dont care how "old" or "mature" YOU are...I PROMISE YOU that, when pushed in game, you'll eventually resort to immature style tactics to combat an enemy you cannot "man-up" and just beat. I've seen your type many times before. If you log into an MMO to be "serious" about your online persona...YER DOING IT WRONG. People will log in for the simple fact to NOT act like they do in RL...thus immaturity, childish behavior, and general ass-hattery. Welcome to the internet!



WOW... all I can really say is LOL. This is only the beginning to these types of "actions". Again, stressing the "no consequences for actions" here. I bet if the tribe he did it to had the ability to do, well, ANYTHING back to him...he would have thought otherwise...right?

*Being somewhat serious (legit) after a great amount of lawls...

Everyone needs trees. For the gain of skill and development of "assets" in game, they should be easy to be cut down and removed. They SHOULD grow back. They SHOULD be able to be planted. They should NOT grow to full capacity in a single day. They SHOULD, after planted, grow to different levels (as they obviously are in game, some are MUCH bigger even of the same type) only by time in game. Example - plant saproling, cannot plant another within x radius, will take maybe 7 full days before maturing into the base and minimum harvestable tree. 2 weeks - next level. 3 weeks - etc. Each level should have a predetermined "quantity amount radius" that is possible to be felled rolled by skill level in logging. ANYONE should be able to cut these down at any time and remove the stump, regardless of location. It should be up to a properly built town/walls to prevent someone from "stealing" this resource. Else, it will be fair game. Sapling "seeds" should be harvestable just like any resource in game probably from a similar type of tree in the same resource zone as "twigs/brush" or whatever it is.

All balance, all fair.

Still the problem persists. There are no way of them ever growing back yet, unless random tree's do in fact grow and as long as people cannot effectively defend their trees from being cut down unless they want to be online 24/7 doing nothing but patrolling their area, which I doubt anyone would like too, then you got to put in a preventive measure for the time being.
It ain't fun, but currently they are way too easy to destroy or allow us to kill stumps within tribe areas (yes your safe zone) and I won't give rats ass as I'll just remove my neighbors tree's then, until that happens or we get better ways of getting trees I vouch for a preventive measure.

[Hefe18]

Too long have I labored in clear cutting the great forests of Xsyon! I plee to the Gods of Xsyon, "Let me wreck havoc upon these sheep whom claim I only act out of lack of intelligence!" All I require is meaning in Xsyon so that the destruction is allowed to continue!

"Nay!" I say to you whom want these chains placed upon our beautiful world. The more freedom we are allowed to have by the Gods of Xsyon, the happier we all shall be. Continue I shall to make sacrifices to Jordi, God of Xsyon, in the form of lumber and blood upon our lands. Tremble in my wake or join me in my crusade to create a better life for all of us!

[maelwydd]

maelwydd,

The time of apocalypse is at hand. Humanity has been wiped from the earth, except for a small handful of folks alive in the world of xsyon. A group is formed of old friends who decide to band together to see if they can rebuild what they have all lost, planting their totem in a remote part of the world.

Soon, across the river a hundred campfires are burning, with all manner of rabble. They come sniffing around the tribe's campsite, digging through the trash, and felling the trees. Diplomatic parties are sent out to reason with these folks - "there is not enough trash and resources for you here, we ask that you find a place which is not so close to our small town here. With almost 20 souls to feed and clothe, we will need all the meager bounty from the surrounding areas to survive the coming winter."

The homesteaders refused to move, and continued harvesting trees and stealing resources, driving the animals over the mountains and into the deadly green mist. Finally, a war party was formed - "we will starve if we don't remove these interlopers!", however when the war party reached the first homesteaders camp site, which was stocked with booty, some unknown force prevented the tribe from being able to use force, and in fact, they were slaughtered to the man.

A tribal council was convened. "If we don't remove these interlopers, we will not be able to survive." Hefe took it upon himself, "If I deprive them of their close-by lumber to build protective walls, they will need to venture out to harvest lumber, and we will be able to take our revenge." And so Hefe stole out into the night and destroyed tree after tree within sight of any of the camps. He clear cut until his palms bled from the blisters popping on his hands, and yet he continued until not a single tree could be seen across the hillside.

It is funny, in 1 thread people shout out "can't do that, this isn't real life" and in this you shout out "can't stopthis, this happens in real life".

Again, make your bloody minds up!

[anden147]

It's a unfair tactic but if ppl want to do it let them. but i think i sould take longer time to destroy something

[caldrin]

i agree somthing should be done about this.

If we all played during the same time then sure maybe we could police this but we dont, some of us play in the EU others in the states and others in different parts fo the world.
Because of this there will be times when hole clans are sleeping and yet another caln could all be logged in so could do what they wanted to all the resources.. and of course this works when the sleeping tibe is on and the other ones now sleeping.. So waht will robalyl happen as a result of all this is that every tree stump will eventually be destroyed and no one wil have any wood..

LOL

anyway stumps should take a very long time to remove (10 mins or somthing like that). For stumps in tribe land the tribe could remove it at the current speed but no one else could remove it.

[coca]

I would think that you should be able to forage for a seed...

Push it into the dirt and few real days later a tree pops up.

Problem solved.

A seed shouldn't be super rare, but shouldn't be a top 10 drop either.

Simple solutions are sometimes the best answers.

[Jadzia]

I would think that you should be able to forage for a seed...

Push it into the dirt and few real days later a tree pops up.

Problem solved.

A seed shouldn't be super rare, but shouldn't be a top 10 drop either.

Simple solutions are sometimes the best answers.

This would be a good solution in the long term, but it needs programming and we need a quick fix for now.

[kergan]

I pray with all my might to to our awsome ghod Jordi for Him to grant you the ability to start forest fires brother! So that you may spare your hands the indignities of the harvest, and free them for the most important of tasks...teaching our golden-haired children in the ways of war, which looms on the horizon like a welcomed sunrise.

[Gorr81]

damn... last couple of days was thinking about stump destroying, for the new tree to grow should you or shouldnt destroyed stump... apperantly my logic was wrong... thankfully I destroyed only 3-4 stumps

[Morgan]

So most of this is rage, I really don't see why. Honestly if there is any remedy that needs to be taken, the ability to plant trees would be the best one. That and some damn gates on the walls.

Other than that, can more VD people post? I love your signatures, and I am curious if you can come up with 20 different versions of "VD".

[Soulwanderer]

So most of this is rage, I really don't see why. Honestly if there is any remedy that needs to be taken, the ability to plant trees would be the best one. That and some damn gates on the walls.

Other than that, can more VD people post? I love your signatures, and I am curious if you can come up with 20 different versions of "VD".

I'm not sure how many more are going to make their way in until we see some progress on either making PvP a little more fun or some Siege implementation, but I did a quick count on our signature board and we're currently sitting at 23 different guild names. ;)

[Salvadore]

This "issue" doesnt need addressed QUICKLY imo...

Yes, it needs addressed, but there are many other things that should be before it (lag, combat, bag naming, etc).

The FUN PART of a PLAYER DRIVEN ECONOMY is having resource shortages, contesting of said resources, politics/diplomacy involving resources, current resource aquisition and risk involved, and various other things. Simply GIVING the player driven economy an unlimited amount of something defeats the whole purpose of itself. Y'all better start jackin' your wood asap, before its gone!

*Lumberjackin' that is...

[Dubanka]

and we have a stockpile of lumber products.

is there a method to the madness? hmmm.

or are we just eeeeeeeevillllllllLLLLLllll.

[vorg]

terraforming is not aloud off your own land. Should be the same for distroying stumps and rocks.

[Sirius]

terraforming is not aloud off your own land. Should be the same for distroying stumps and rocks.

Terraforming is always aloud. Check your volume control.

[xyberviri]

terraforming is not aloud off your own land. Should be the same for distroying stumps and rocks.

do you know how fast you would run out of resources.

you wouldn't be able to build anything.

there isn't a problem, the issue is you need to police your land more, we do the same in our tribe and the trees have been up for a while.

[Soulwanderer]

do you know how fast you would run out of resources.

you wouldn't be able to build anything.

there isn't a problem, the issue is you need to police your land more, we do the same in our tribe and the trees have been up for a while.

aloud ;) It took me a minute to get it too. hehe

[Proto]

On the subject of out of control pvp, We had a guy come by yesterday that had been pk'd by a group. They took everything cept the gift weapon which is protected. We gave him tools and baskets and he tried to go back to his place. But on the way, 4 jumped him again and again took everything. This is no pvp, this is grefing. What's more, pk'ers set up their char stats for this which gives them an advantage over players who set up for crafting and they normally play pvp games giving them real life skill advantages.

What most games end up doing in an effort to force people to play fair and to play the game instead of game machanics is give players some kind of pvp switch. If they choose not to pvp, they can't be pk'd.

killing someone twice? man that's some hardcore griefing.

[coca]

So most of this is rage, I really don't see why. Honestly if there is any remedy that needs to be taken, the ability to plant trees would be the best one. That and some damn gates on the walls.

Other than that, can more VD people post? I love your signatures, and I am curious if you can come up with 20 different versions of "VD".

oh oh... I wanna play !!!

[Proto]

Have to say I really wonder about you VD guys, if you are trying to RP being dicks in the game you sure do a good job at it. But sometimes when you write posts I believe you know absolutely nothing about RP.

We only RP in the bedroom.

Added after 5 minutes:


So most of this is rage, I really don't see why. Honestly if there is any remedy that needs to be taken, the ability to plant trees would be the best one. That and some damn gates on the walls.

Other than that, can more VD people post? I love your signatures, and I am curious if you can come up with 20 different versions of "VD".

I am VD, but due to licensing and contractual reasons I cannot depart from my signature.

And sentiment.

On a side note..

One of the best parts in this thread is the worldwide assumption of the community here that clear cutting a forest must be tactic from the PVPer to grief people, not that there couldn't be some legitimate reason for cutting down trees..

[Sirius]

killing someone twice? man that's some hardcore griefing.

PROTO, I don't think you read the whole post. It was 4 on 1 and they took his stuff...


One of the best parts in this thread is the worldwide assumption of the community here that clear cutting a forest must be tactic from the PVPer to grief people, not that there couldn't be some legitimate reason for cutting down trees..

There could be... but there wasn't... hence the lulz :eek:

[Proto]

oh I know there wasn't, but there certainly could be legitimate reasons for doing such a dastardly deed

[Dubanka]

oh I know there wasn't, but there certainly could be legitimate reasons for doing such a dastardly deed

VD theme song IMO.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHcKkBWR4Mk

[Haphazard]

funny thing, is we discussed this very tactic before release. We just got the jump on the actual timing of when to use it. Hefe wanted to make sure he never lost a strength point, so logged until he was bored. I know it probably wasnt that funny to the guy who got the tree dropped on his head (and his basket containing his axe) but I have to admit that that was kind of funny right there.

Remember to clear trees from around your walls, or someone is going to drop a tree right on top of them, and then be able to sashay on in.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

PROTO, I don't think you read the whole post. It was 4 on 1 and they took his stuff...



There could be... but there wasn't... hence the lulz :eek:

I still don't think that was griefing... Did they surround his homestead and murder him whenever he came out? That MAYBE possibly could be considered griefing IF they are doing it just to get a reaction out of him. Maybe their clan has declared that person an enemy and wants to encourage them to find a new place to live.

[iamshylock]

Other than that, can more VD people post? I love your signatures, and I am curious if you can come up with 20 different versions of "VD".

By request...

~Kyr

[korlion]

damn guys, stop being so whinny. look the trees will grow back. stop trying to limit what people can do. It is called a a sandbox game for a reason not a damn daycare for "spoiled i want it my way kids". Yes people will clear the trees, people will dig up the ground and people will even kill you. Its not something we should be limiting. we already can't steal off peoples land, can't atttack them. Hell we can't even defend ourselves on their land.

I had someone even teraform my river so getting back to my homestead is 2x times as long(i have to go around and up over a cliff,lol). you know what? i thought it was ok and even a smart thing they did it added a 'somthing" that is missing from wow and etc. WE DO NOT NEED TO BE SPOONFED.

[Phazaar]

killing someone twice? man that's some hardcore griefing.

Man, don't even get into the fact that the PvPers were slowed down by taking all his lewts. Jesus, how inconsiderate to be outside of your own area with ALL your tools and items. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if this was a griefing tactic aimed at ruining the fun of the PvPers. He probably WANTED them to take all of his stuff; must have done in fact, otherwise how on earth could he be SO stupid as to venture outside his safe zone with all his stuff? I call for bans, and I know I'm not the only one...

[Sirius]

WE DO NOT NEED TO BE SPOONFED.

Speak for yourself... I needs my strained carrots..

[EmyLightsaber]

Would suggest the devs only step in once the ENTIRE available playable area is clearcut of trees.

[Morgan]

so yeah, once again, just let them plant trees, wall in your stock, post guards, this isn't the smurfs ya know...


Just the other day I noticed that the regs have a tree that's completely walled off. you could always do that :D


@VD: 23? Wow, anyone got "Victory or Death?" The last Star Fighter was awesome :D

@kyr: Thanks!

[chaosegg]

Signed.

Madea - excellent posts (in the first 3 pages I got through).


I think making it extremely time-consuming and stamina-intensive would be best, thus making it easy to chase down and kill someone who's doing this to your surrounding lands.Normally I ignore Sirius' post but I actually like this ^ one. :D
It really should take a fair-sized group of players a whole [game] day to lay waste to an acre or 12 of land.

My proposal would be; that each character be limited to destroying one, maybe two, things per [game] day.
This would apply to just about anything that had the "destroy" menu option.

As for terraform-destruction... that's a whole different ballgame and I haven't thought of a good solution yet.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Signed.


My proposal would be; that each character be limited to destroying one, maybe two, things per [game] day.
This would apply to just about anything that had the "destroy" menu option.



No, no, no, in fact let me add a hell no! I whole heartedly disagree with this. The devs should add mechanics that help us(by us I mean we the players) deal with these problems. Not a restriction that basicly does it for us, and limits the overall gameplay.

I do like the idea of destroying stumps time and stamina intensive though. It doesn't restrict and will likely evolve into different tactics to destroy a forested area. For example you'd likely have to bring people just to be body guards if you wanted to deforest someone if this was the case.

Btw after reading a lot of this thread I retract my view on making stumps only deletable on tribe/homestead land. Just make it easier for us the players to deal with it.

[Sirius]

I do like the idea of destroying stumps time and stamina intensive though. It doesn't restrict and will likely evolve into different tactics to destroy a forested area.

This was the core of my idea. Make it manageable for players to deal with this on their own. I'm against hard-coded restrictions, or direct GM intervention, wherever it's not genuinely needed. It not only wastes the devs' time, it nurtures a player base that will come to expect everything to be done for them.

[Dubanka]

1 stump destroyed = 30 seconds and 100% stamina.

AND players need the ability to reseed areas...whereas trees may 'grow back' in 72 hours, reseeeded areas take 120 hours.

[Delvie]

On the subject of seeding....poison ivy might be a nice addition. Actually don't remember seeing anything but trees in the game. I come back to the fact that with no electricity or gasoline in the game destroying stuff should take more than an instant click, but still be destroyable.

[Haladmer]

To the OP, Yes, yes it is.




Just the other day I noticed that the regs have a tree that's completely walled off. you could always do that :D



Thank you, common sense! (Seriously)

I apologize in advance, because this is gonna be a rude reply/rant to those who want a system to "protect them" or "even the playing field"...

You have the tools, you have a brain (which should be understood to be included in the Tools, but just in case), use them.

Just because there isn't an OBVIOUS solution doesn't mean the dev's need to change the game. Eve gets thrown around a lot on these forums as an example of how to do "X" system. Last time I played Eve, a lot of this same ass-hattery occurred there, the difference was that people there seem to have understood that what is used against them can be used back.

Why is a sci-fi/futuristic game okay to have this level of common sense, but a post-apocalyptic game has to have everyone singing Koomba-ya and drinking the fizzy-sugar water?

Hell, dig a giant pit around "your" trees, and leave only 1 ramp in/out that is walled off into the center of your town. Or even leave the ramp out and only put it back when you need it.

The moral of this rant is, the developers gave you the tools, the system gives you a base set of rules, and (I hope) your teachers taught you how to think, so do so.

::Goes back to the crafter section muttering about whippersnappers and a lot less polite things::

[Soulwanderer]

@VD: 23? Wow, anyone got "Victory or Death?" The last Star Fighter was awesome :D

Hehe, nope. Grig in a gas mask would be pretty sweet though.

[Proto]

This was the core of my idea. Make it manageable for players to deal with this on their own. I'm against hard-coded restrictions, or direct GM intervention, wherever it's not genuinely needed. It not only wastes the devs' time, it nurtures a player base that will come to expect everything to be done for them.

unfortunately most players here seem to be used to games that do everything for them, they don't relish the concept of holding other people accountable for their actions, they'd rather have the devs do it for them.


To the OP, Yes, yes it is.



Thank you, common sense! (Seriously)

I apologize in advance, because this is gonna be a rude reply/rant to those who want a system to "protect them" or "even the playing field"...

You have the tools, you have a brain (which should be understood to be included in the Tools, but just in case), use them.

Just because there isn't an OBVIOUS solution doesn't mean the dev's need to change the game. Eve gets thrown around a lot on these forums as an example of how to do "X" system. Last time I played Eve, a lot of this same ass-hattery occurred there, the difference was that people there seem to have understood that what is used against them can be used back.

Why is a sci-fi/futuristic game okay to have this level of common sense, but a post-apocalyptic game has to have everyone singing Koomba-ya and drinking the fizzy-sugar water?

Hell, dig a giant pit around "your" trees, and leave only 1 ramp in/out that is walled off into the center of your town. Or even leave the ramp out and only put it back when you need it.

The moral of this rant is, the developers gave you the tools, the system gives you a base set of rules, and (I hope) your teachers taught you how to think, so do so.

::Goes back to the crafter section muttering about whippersnappers and a lot less polite things::

heh teachers stopped teaching critical thinking skills years ago...so did parents for that matter.

It's not all the whippersnappers's fault.

[mrcalhou]

heh teachers stopped teaching critical thinking skills years ago...so did parents for that matter.

It's not all the whippersnappers's fault.

Off-topic:
Yeah, I've noticed that with my Chem I honors, Chem II honors, and Chem I classes. They need their hands held for everything. Last week I gave the honors I section an assignment to work in pairs to research the material that I was going to ask them questions on. The next day I get: "I don't know that! You didn't teach it to me!" It's like they need to be told everything and can't think for themselves. Ugh, I want to /facepalm.

Edit: A lot of this comes from the earlier grades pushing students to get advanced and masteries on "the test." Which is almost all multiple-choice. All they need to do is bubble in a correct answer. They don't need to understand something. They just need to know it. I almost failed out my freshman year of college because while I "knew" a lot of stuff, I didn't understand enough to be able to form reasonable opinions and back them up. I'm seeing that with my students now. They can do fine with recall, but have them create something and it's a nightmare.

[Proto]

Off-topic:
Yeah, I've noticed that with my Chem I honors, Chem II honors, and Chem I classes. They need their hands held for everything. Last week I gave the honors I section an assignment to work in pairs to research the material that I was going to ask them questions on. The next day I get: "I don't know that! You didn't teach it to me!" It's like they need to be told everything and can't think for themselves. Ugh, I want to /facepalm.

Unfortunately it's not just internet blather, it's a real problem in this country and no one with any power to fix the problem in schools (unfortunately home is rarely better) can't seem to figure out omg why are our kids dropping out at record numbers or why are our test scores plummeting towards those of a third world country. bah. /facepalm indeed.

Back on topic though, yeah the players need to learn how to hold people accountable for their actions, not let the game do it for them.

[Sultan]

Ok this is coming from a guy that had this happend to..

Stop crying and go find.

there are 0 tress in our zone and the zone next to our zone and the zone that is to the right of us...

Do you know what we did?

we went 20 guys on a 5 mint walk and found a forest we got wood for one mounth.

[Plague]

I had a nice chat with on of the guides, who asked devs directly of what is allowed and what is not:

- Moving totems around by 5, 6, 7 people that hop from temp tribe to temp tribe to be able to terraform land around anyone is allowed even if it means building a huge wall around someone and cornering him completely
- Destroying all in game resources by any means (allowed in game) possible is allowed. You can destroy stumps, junk piles, block rivers, destroy grass... Everything goes.

So don't bitch too much, rather find a way to get back to those who maltreated you. Payback is much sweeter if you do it yourself (using game mechanics, not going to his door with PMX bat in your hand). Here are some things you can do to anyone destroying your resources (as allowed by game and mod rules).

Form a temp tribe of 10 people with showels. Place a totem next to tribe or homestead you want to grief. As close as possible, preferably close to some key resource like river or junkpile. Clear everything up, dig up a huge hole or raise a huge dirt wall on that piece of land and get rid of all dirt you have. Holes work well if close to a river, no tribe likes to be surrounded by huge water ditches with not enough dirt to cover it up. Then have all but tribe leader leave the tribe and form a new one right next to the first one. Do it 5-6 times to make sure everything around tribe you want to grief is ruined and terraformed, no trees are left, water sources are moved (if possible), no junk or grass is left and nothing to do there except to move out. If you are lucky that tribe you want to grief is close to elevated water source (river that flows downstream with few waterfalls) you are lucky as leading water down will auto generate 100x more dirt then you can ever bring with yuorself. This will allow you to create huge natural walls (mountain sized if you know how to do it) that no one can fix without investing months of terraforming in it.

If they take days to fix it (water and elevation, resources are permanently destroyed) do it again as soon as they are done. 10 people can ruin a landscape in just few hours and it would take 10 people much longer to fix it.

I'm not saying you should do it, I personaly despise any form of griefing and misusing game mechanics to ruin game experience for others. I'm sayint this is all possible and allowed by game and mod rules. You will not get banned or warned for making barren lands around anyone. And if there is nothing else for you to do to get back to those who griefed you this is how you can do it and enjoy it as they can not touch you in your own tribe lands (hoping tribes is easy).

[ifireallymust]

Unfortunately it's not just internet blather, it's a real problem in this country and no one with any power to fix the problem in schools (unfortunately home is rarely better) can't seem to figure out omg why are our kids dropping out at record numbers or why are our test scores plummeting towards those of a third world country. bah. /facepalm indeed.

Back on topic though, yeah the players need to learn how to hold people accountable for their actions, not let the game do it for them.


America's public education system was proposed for 2 reasons:

1. To find and nurture the rare geniuses, even those among the poor (or at least the male, white poor).

2. To condition all others to accept their lot in life.


When was the last time critical thinking (or much of any thinking at all) made McWorkers better at their jobs?

Dish out the Prozac, the MMOs, and the reality TV, hope some of the basic math sticks for the cash register slaves, and then pray like hell none of them ever thinks an original thought as long as they live is more what our society and its schools have to aim for now.

Unless, of course, revolution is the goal.

[Andius]

I agree with wolfmoon, that this would be a good solution.

Either that, or make trees regrow even without the stump.


This. I didn't even know trees regrew from stumps until just now. I was destroying every stump I saw just because I found them an eyesore. Trees should regrow without stumps unless they are within a homestead/tribe. Also there should be a skill allowing the planting of trees.

[jumper45]

Yesterday morning, there was a whole, nice forest growing near VD's camp.

As you looked around this morning, it seemed that every single tree, log, or stump from the edge of the VD camp outward to halfway up the surrounding mountains had been clearcut. Place looks kinda bare now.

Imagine that. Musta been...oh...I dunno...80 trees total or so. Golly.

Irreplaceable? An ecological disaster? Time will tell.

Thinking Alien death ray from space, myself.

[Sirius]

I applaud you for stepping up to do what needed to be done.

And anyway, trees make my FPS even worse.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

I had a nice chat with on of the guides, who asked devs directly of what is allowed and what is not:

- Moving totems around by 5, 6, 7 people that hop from temp tribe to temp tribe to be able to terraform land around anyone is allowed even if it means building a huge wall around someone and cornering him completely
- Destroying all in game resources by any means (allowed in game) possible is allowed. You can destroy stumps, junk piles, block rivers, destroy grass... Everything goes.

So don't bitch too much, rather find a way to get back to those who maltreated you. Payback is much sweeter if you do it yourself (using game mechanics, not going to his door with PMX bat in your hand). Here are some things you can do to anyone destroying your resources (as allowed by game and mod rules).

Form a temp tribe of 10 people with showels. Place a totem next to tribe or homestead you want to grief. As close as possible, preferably close to some key resource like river or junkpile. Clear everything up, dig up a huge hole or raise a huge dirt wall on that piece of land and get rid of all dirt you have. Holes work well if close to a river, no tribe likes to be surrounded by huge water ditches with not enough dirt to cover it up. Then have all but tribe leader leave the tribe and form a new one right next to the first one. Do it 5-6 times to make sure everything around tribe you want to grief is ruined and terraformed, no trees are left, water sources are moved (if possible), no junk or grass is left and nothing to do there except to move out. If you are lucky that tribe you want to grief is close to elevated water source (river that flows downstream with few waterfalls) you are lucky as leading water down will auto generate 100x more dirt then you can ever bring with yuorself. This will allow you to create huge natural walls (mountain sized if you know how to do it) that no one can fix without investing months of terraforming in it.

If they take days to fix it (water and elevation, resources are permanently destroyed) do it again as soon as they are done. 10 people can ruin a landscape in just few hours and it would take 10 people much longer to fix it.

I'm not saying you should do it, I personaly despise any form of griefing and misusing game mechanics to ruin game experience for others. I'm sayint this is all possible and allowed by game and mod rules. You will not get banned or warned for making barren lands around anyone. And if there is nothing else for you to do to get back to those who griefed you this is how you can do it and enjoy it as they can not touch you in your own tribe lands (hoping tribes is easy).

Better yet put the dirt on the totem as a quest and then pull up and leave. If I believed this to be true for one second I would begin Operation: Waterworld... This is not how the devs wanted their game to turn out I'm sure. Some barren monstrosity of earthen walls and sinkholes. These tactics are viable in the right situations, but are clearly just griefing most of the time. I guess the definition of griefing comes down to motive and intent. If you are doing it for the lolz and to make someone rage then you are griefing. If it is used as a military strategy then it is simply a good tactic. The devs will have to decide where the line is if they want their game to survive.