Suggested combat system for the overhaul

[wolfmoonstrike]

Please remember this is only a suggested alternative to a MnB style of combat and IMO some ways better than a MnB influenced combat system that many are clamoring for (including myself in a lot of ways). I'm suggesting this so that way there is an alternative system that may prove to help shape the game to become even better in the end. I welcome all different points of view.

I'd like to mention couple other things before I go into my suggestion. First is I apologize for any tangents I go off into, I have a habit of typing like I talk (though I try to structure it better for readability). Second the battle system I'm thinking of is heavily influenced by Demon Souls (a PS3 game) and will likely post many videos trying to show examples of some of the things I'd like to see.

*=edited
K so for the key points:
-Lock on for close ranged combat*
-Weapons stopped by solid objects and possibly people
-Ranged weaponry
-Balanced combat styles
-Balanced stats; all useful for combat
-Weaponry: Sidegrade VS Upgrade
-Backstabs and Ripostes
-Dodging and the effects of burden
-Observation skill and the effects it could have on magic and combat




Lock on for close range combat

A lock on for close combat is beneficial in a few ways. First being is that it provides and equalizer for all those fps nuts out their versus those rpg nuts. It will also help you keep your target in a frenzied battle. A lock on changes the game from being a fps/tps kind of skill-based game to more of a endurance management/dodge/block/parry skill game.
Edited:
K So far Lock on has been for the most part heavily opposed and some good points were made. I can certainly see why lock-on would be opposed when you have mouse as your camera lol. Alternatives such as a soft lock hybrid-system, similar to Tabula Rasa has been put out their as an idea and I think it's a good one, or at least one worth debating. Of course there are also those who would wish for a full aim system. I'm not opposed to any of these ideas and like always I can change my mind when a good enough point is put forth. Remember Lock on was only one part of my idea ^^.



Not the best quality but I think it gets my point across in few areas. Will likely refer back to it in my other sections.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RQ961BFIT4



Weapons stopped by solid objects

If weapons hit a wall or another object they should be stopped and possibly bounced back depending on the type of material hit. So for a stone wall it would kinda bounce off the surface unable to complete a swing and possibly degrade your weapon a bit.

The reason this would be cool is certain terrain and other elements would be better suited for different weaponry. For example thrusting weapons would be better suited for narrow areas like the halls in your fort in case anybody ever broke through. While large slashing weapons would be great if traveling alone and if you are in a wide open area. Bows and smaller weapons better suited for hilly or mountainous areas.

Now I'm not sure if a weapon should bounce off a person or if it should go through them, but it should hurt anybody it touches regardless (friend or foe). Personally I think it should pass through people, I believe it will help diminish zergs if it passes through your target and can hurt your comrades.


Ranged Weaponry


Ranged weapons such as bows and handguns should be able to lock on at close range and go into a sight mode to target someone far off if need be. While long barrel guns and crossbows should only have a sight mode for targeting far off enemies.

When someone uses a bow or crossbow I think it should be possible to time dodges just right, so that way an arrow would miss. This can either be done by making sure watching an arrow being knocked is visible enough that most people can take a guess when they are about to release to slowing down and arrow where it's visibly possible to dodge.

Once again not my best quality but it shows off some of what I was talking about in this area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMC5gWaTj9k



Balanced combat styles

This should be the main focus regardless of what kind of combat system you plan to use. In Demon Souls, their was always a counter point to whatever combat style yous used. If you were the heavy tanker kind of guy, your strengths typically were that you could outlast most people in a fight and take a whole bunch of damage while possibly giving quite a bit back. The problem being for a tanker guy though is they were typically very slow moving and couldn't dodge (unless they heavily invested in endurance, but then that would weaken their damage output) so they usually went down due to either a really strong person or a quick moving one that utilized ripostes and backstabs.

Of course their were also weapons in the game that nullified most tanker guys. One being the Scraper Spear, it had a nasty habit of breaking weapons and armor (the damage sucked, thank god for secondary weapons). The other being the Shard of moonlight that bypassed defense (but was a faith based weapon and only useful if you focused on faith)

This is just one example, each combat style had a weakness and a strength and every weapon typically got bested by another weapon style. (not always the case, depends on how skilled someone was with their weapon.)

I'm willing to answer any situational question and will likely answer in how I've seen it happen or how it could work for combat style balance. It's a big subject and not something that can be overly delved into in this post. I will likely post more of my thoughts a t a later time...


Balanced stats

Another important thing regardless of combat system, is the usefulness of stats in combat and stat balancing. In Demon Souls you had 8 main stats, and regardless of where you put the points into your physical defense would rise so that way to equalize you, regardless of your build. My point in saying this is we should make it so stats, while having specific uses, should also possibly have some sort of equalizer to make all of them useful in combat regardless of your build. Maybe bleed the edges a bit. Though in some ways this already happens in Xsyon.


Weaponry: Sidegrades VS Upgrades

Personally, I believe we should have more sidegrades than upgrades in the game. Possibly giving highly skilled crafters more effect over their work instead of just a better quality weapon. I'm going use some abstract stats to make my point so bear with me. Lets pretend each weapon was based around these few stats: Reach; Speed; Power; Weight; Balance; Effect.

Reach= the range of your weapon and how close you need to be to hit someone.
Speed= The rate your weapon swings at.
Power= The rating of how much relative damage your weapon does.
Weight= How much equip burden and how much a swing takes out of your endurance.
Balance= Affects how well you can combo your weapon and how easy it is to parry.
Effect= Consider this the more moddable stat. Displays the effect your weapon has. Such as possibly being serrated and able to causing bleeding wounds when it tears skin, poison tipped to weaken your opponents, or possibly blessed to take down more magical based opponents.

As well as weapon type:
Piercing
Blunt
Slashing

These stats could be intermingled and possibly bleed the edges a bit on the stats. For example:

Increasing the blunt power of a weapon could increase its weight and affect balance.
Giving a weapon a longer handle or blade could increase its reach but possibly skew its balance and speed.

Such things like that.


Backstabs and Ripostes

In demon souls it was possibly to deflect an attack with either your shield or offhand weapon (if the weapon allowed parrying instead of blocking). When you deflected an attack you could riposte doing a devastating attack. Also if you got the drop on them you could do a devastating attack from behind. I think these would be nice to see in Xsyon.

You can see a few of these in my earlier posted vids.


Dodging and the effects of burden

As you put heavier weapons and armor on your equip burden goes up. This results in more stamina usage when sprinting and when dodging. In fact when dodging if your equip burden was over 50% of your total allowed, your dodging ability would be reduced. Over 75% you would just stagger if you tried to dodge (this also happened in marshy areas in the game...talk about a PITA),

Near the beginning of the fight between the phantoms you'll see the blue try to dodge, not ice his dodge is slower than the others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbVaOIwfpGQ


Observation skills and the effects

Ok this one wasn't influenced by Demon's Souls alone but by many games and my thoughts on learning.

It's my belief that observing something will typically help you come up with new ideas or even help you learn something you needed to learn. An example of how this could work in game is that a character using their high stat of perception and high skill of observation could be watching how a bear tears into another animal or person and comes up with a new style of fighting, or a new hand to hand weapon pattern.

I think this skill could come in handy for researching future technologies in game or even new magics. I mean how cool would it be for the devs to add new spells and equipment into the game( but not tell us) and the only way to learn these new things is to observe certain effects in game. So most of the time you'd either have to actively research with your character or possibly just stumble upon new techs and magics. You could even use this skill to learn new stuff from others such as watching a person craft a sword could increase your weapon-craft skill.



Final thoughts

I will answer any question you have to the best of my abilities and provide counter points to arguments. I understand this system would be different then most might expect but I think it could be quite cool to see in an mmo setting. I'd also like to mention that I'm not above changing my mind when logic dictates to. At times I will draw on outside sources to provide an example of my point. I will also likely edit this post or my reserved posts for amendments or good points provided by other players (both pro's and cons).

[STAR_GOD]

great post

[XeoStyle]

TL;DR

i agree with inq :P

[wolfmoonstrike]

Well gee thanks guys care to add more thoughts than that :p. And I was worried that it might be too long but I had a lot to say lol. Certainly their is more to say than "Great Post" boss :p.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Console style combat? Absolutely terrible idea. Demons Souls is a great game, but sorry, I don't want that to be my standard for PvP in a MMO.

Locking on to enemies eliminates a great deal of the individual skill and maneuverability. And even more importantly, it makes group combat into a total uncontrollable mash-fest. Seriously, you're requesting LOCK ONS of all things?

Hands down, worst suggestion I've seen on this forum. I'd support the "get married and have an NPC baby" crap before I'd get behind this idea.

Did you stop at lock-ons? Or continue on? That was just one part of the suggestion.

But lock-on I think is dependent on how it's used and the other mechanics behind it. Honestly I believe lock on only eliminates the aiming part of the skill set but you still need skills for the other parts of the combat. For group combat it is already for the most part an uncontrollably mash up since you're never sure who're fighting lol. But can you go into how you think it would be worse with lock-ons in a group situation?

[wolfmoonstrike]

double post, please delete if possible mods.

[orious13]

I haven't read all of this yet, but if you can use the dodge/parry tools already in to block/dodge magic and arrows then a lock on at a certain range might invoke some pretty nice combat and stop everyone from being ranged. If you can't use those tools, than a lock on might not be the best idea unless it's a straight only shot that doesn't auto follow the target.


A better idea might be to have a semi lock on system, where when you hover the mouse over an enemy you still have a chance to miss at low archery/magic skill.

I haven't thought all this out, but just throwing up some things.

[wolfmoonstrike]

I haven't read all of this yet, but if you can use the dodge/parry tools already in to block/dodge magic and arrows then a lock on at a certain range might invoke some pretty nice combat and stop everyone from being ranged. If you can't use those tools, than a lock on might not be the best idea unless it's a straight only shot that doesn't auto follow the target.


A better idea might be to have a semi lock on system, where when you hover the mouse over an enemy you still have a chance to miss at low archery/magic skill.

I haven't thought all this out, but just throwing up some things.

I think I see what you're getting at. Kinda like in ace combat for certain missiles, you had to keep your aiming reticle over the plane you were trying to hit. I'd like to see that for certain ranged combat types.

[orious13]

I think I see what you're getting at. Kinda like in ace combat for certain missiles, you had to keep your aiming reticle over the plane you were trying to hit. I'd like to see that for certain ranged combat types.

If different LR-weapons could have different targeting schemes then that would also be pretty interesting.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Not sure what you mean Orious. More detail, or possibly an example please?

[Trenchfoot]

What RM said. ^^

And frankly, I did stop reading at lock-ons. It's symbolic of everything I hate about games that do all the work for you. I'd rather read a book than watch two calculators do battle. And further I would be dead set against any feature that takes the skill of the player out of their hands. Hitting what you are aiming at manually is a skill. Some got it, others just need practice. This is why we love MnB style combat. I takes real effort and real skill.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Hmm you make some damn good points Morgan.

One of the reasons I did suggest a lock-on was to offset lag. Also like I said before if done right you couldn't just sit there and bash your button to win. In demon souls it took timing, active tactics, MP/endurance management, and preparation to win; if you were an invader anyway. I also disagree that it would have no place in a PvP setting since demon souls pulled it off really well.

But with that said, I can't disagree that it would dumb down gameplay from targeting with your mouse. And I understand the fear too well and I worry that stats/equipment would have too much of an effect. Then again regardless of the battle system stats/equipment could still have too much of an effect. Another reason though why I'm drawing so heavily from demon souls is it took a lot of skill and I won quite a few fights when I was out manned, and out gunned(also got my ass kicked other times....rolling off cliffs suck).

What if the weapons hurt everybody around you that got hit by the weapon swing? Regardless if they were friend or foe. So that way you couldn't just run in and kill a guy, you'd likely have to layer it out so you didn't hurt your own people.

Well even if lock-on may be a bad idea I'd still rather see a different dodge system than what we currently have lol. A couple rolls here or there would be nice.

Added after 5 minutes:


What RM said. ^^

And frankly, I did stop reading at lock-ons. It's symbolic of everything I hate about games that do all the work for you. I'd rather read a book than watch two calculators do battle. And further I would be dead set against any feature that takes the skill of the player out of their hands. Hitting what you are aiming at manually is a skill. Some got it, others just need practice. This is why we love MnB style combat. I takes real effort and real skill.

Don't blame you for it, I'd hate to see two calculators fight it out too. I also understand my post is quite long(sorry) but it doesn't revolve around lock on. I believe there are other good ideas in the post and may help you understand some of my points about a lock on. The last thing I would want to see, is the game be about completely be about the gear/stats....but it already seems quite dependent on stats. 90 agi/str/fortitude anyone?

[Trenchfoot]

@ WolfMoonStrike

Play MnB until you get good at it and you'll understand instantly why it's so popular here. Because in MnB skill can and often does override even the best of gear.

[wolfmoonstrike]

@ WolfMoonStrike

Play MnB until you get good at it and you'll understand instantly why it's so popular here. Because in MnB skill can and often does override even the best of gear.

Already have, already good. Great game. Hands down great game. I was only suggesting this as an alternative lol. I honestly don't believe that this suggestion would be taken as a whole, but if parts of it made it in I think it could enhance even an MnB system.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Like I said, Demons Souls is a great game, so I can see why you'd find inspiration in it. I just don't agree that it translates well into MMO pvp. It's not like you get 30 vs 30 battles in that game; most combat is 1v1. There are things about it that do translate really well, though, as you mentioned.

From my experience you need certain elements to make good action-based combat. Players need to ultize their skill in timing, positioning, range, stamina conservation and commitment. (By commitment I mean that making an attacking makes you vulnerable until you recover your animation.) To make good group combat, you have to give players the ability to use terrain, cover and some degree of formations to their advantage. And, of course, friendly fire is a must if group combat is to be anything other than a zerg fest.

Yeah to tell the truth I was worried about how some of the mechanics would translate into an MMO. I certainly can't disagree that you'd need formations and if you weren't able to utilize terrain I'd be devastated regardless of the combat system lol.I think committing to an attack would be a great to see since that would (hopefully) think about timing and how they attack, regardless of combat system . Actually if they didn't put in lock on but made sure that timing, position, range, stamina conservation, and commitment was all in I'd be very happy.

There is/was a lot in demon souls that I'd kill to see in an MMO, and lock on wasn't really the important one :p lol. I think the balance between combat styles was way more important. I never felt like I need to be a certain way to win in Demon's Souls.

[Belight]

I see the biggest flaws in your suggestion as being your concepts of a weapon stopping when hitting an object and weapon parrying.

You see, that requires every weapon to have it's own hit box. That hit boxes movements must be tracked and then it's interaction with objects, players, or other weapons must also be tracked... This greatly increases the calculations needed and thus increases lag.

In most MMOs you should feel lucky to have a player hit box that registers front and back. Tab Targeting games typically only register a hit. Something like DarkFall only tracks front and back hits. It doesn't even have the addition of head hitboxes.

While I do think that multiple hit boxes, like what MO tried (Pretty sure it didn't work out to well performance wise), is the future of MMOs... I don't think it is the realistic future of Xsyon.

But we can dream, right?

[orious13]

Not sure what you mean Orious. More detail, or possibly an example please?

lol...maybe some weapons have a bigger semi-target than others or maybe something else. Honestly I don't remember what part of my brain I was using when I first typed that.

Anyway, I just like inventing crazy concepts just to be different sometimes. Ha ha.

[biotek]

Jumping around like a gymnast doing a floor exercise is a terrible example of dodging in combat. Look at boxing and martial arts... short quick motions that avoid the attack just enough, that's all it needs to be. It would be hindered by encumbrance, but not as much as many might think.

About the lock-on versus manual aiming - there's a place for a both, and it's based entirely off of opinion. RPGs were originally about the character, not the player - the whole point was to break your own real-life limits. And while manual aiming does have some degree of skill involved, so does stats/probability planning. Both of them are secondary to other variables such as positioning, timing, and equipment.

It's been a long time since I've played it, but Tabula Rasa had a good hybrid system, I remember right. It was primarily fps controls with a retical. But it was fairly lenient and used a soft-lock system so that you could maintain a target during crowded/messy fights. I liked that system because it combined some of the FPS manual aiming with RPG style stat based combat. It felt quick, fluid, and fun.

Some might argue that combat should be about personal skill (manual aim/target) instead of stats or gear (which if designed correctly takes skill, not grind). However, this point of view often ignores the technological advantages that some players will have in real life - essentially claiming that good gear is unfair in-game where everyone has access, but expensive accessories out of game are completely legit.

In the end I still think it's more a matter of preference. I happen to prefer a well done hybrid of the two.

[orious13]

Jumping around like a gymnast doing a floor exercise is a terrible example of dodging in combat. Look at boxing and martial arts... short quick motions that avoid the attack just enough, that's all it needs to be. It would be hindered by encumbrance, but not as much as many might think.

About the lock-on versus manual aiming - there's a place for a both, and it's based entirely off of opinion. RPGs were originally about the character, not the player - the whole point was to break your own real-life limits. And while manual aiming does have some degree of skill involved, so does stats/probability planning. Both of them are secondary to other variables such as positioning, timing, and equipment.

It's been a long time since I've played it, but Tabula Rasa had a good hybrid system, I remember right. It was primarily fps controls with a retical. But it was fairly lenient and used a soft-lock system so that you could maintain a target during crowded/messy fights. I liked that system because it combined some of the FPS manual aiming with RPG style stat based combat. It felt quick, fluid, and fun.

Some might argue that combat should be about personal skill (manual aim/target) instead of stats or gear (which if designed correctly takes skill, not grind). However, this point of view often ignores the technological advantages that some players will have in real life - essentially claiming that good gear is unfair in-game where everyone has access, but expensive accessories out of game are completely legit.

In the end I still think it's more a matter of preference. I happen to prefer a well done hybrid of the two.

Yeah I agree with this. I actually think consolizing rpgs is in fact making them twitch-based (not saying I'm against the 0 target because that does make things more challenging). When I saw targeting, TR is exactly what came to mind... that's a semi-target that still requires aiming skills, but includes rpg elements and RNG. Even Age of Conan has interesting rpgstyle half twitch half targeting combat. The current dodge/parry system I actually like it just needs some tweaking.

[JCatano]

I'm sure someone has already said it, but this was me when I read "lock on":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o19CaOSuD8

[Trenchfoot]

I freely admit as has been stated that we're asking too much for an MnB style combat system. If they can pull it off though, this game will go down in MMO history. Admit it, we're all asking ourselves if this will be the one or if we'll have to wait for another 10 years for the tech to make a game that has all of the games you love rolled into one. It will happen eventually.

We do indeed dream.

[Hellaciouss]

What RM said. ^^

And frankly, I did stop reading at lock-ons. It's symbolic of everything I hate about games that do all the work for you. I'd rather read a book than watch two calculators do battle. And further I would be dead set against any feature that takes the skill of the player out of their hands. Hitting what you are aiming at manually is a skill. Some got it, others just need practice. This is why we love MnB style combat. I takes real effort and real skill.

Now I am not agreeing with the OP, but from all the MnB combat videos I have seen...everything seems to go down in...1 hit...how is that skill, at all?

[Asmos]

Have no desire to see a Lock-On mechanic in game.

Like to...
- know what Armed Combat is for? Sounds like Tactics from UO.
- see all the Weapon Types and Skills in game.
- have the combat box enhanced. Weapon/Arm distance is not correct.
- see there be fast to slow weapons of each type.
And to top it all off.. NO LAG WHILE IN COMBAT!!!

Once all this is done then we should be talking about how to improve PvP.

[Trenchfoot]

Now I am not agreeing with the OP, but from all the MnB combat videos I have seen...everything seems to go down in...1 hit...how is that skill, at all?

Sometimes it's fast, other times it long, and sometimes it's just pure luck. The point is that it's a skill YOU as the player learn, and not a statistic that the character learns. Your combat skills don't automatically appear just because you get another point in some skill (while it may effect the odds somewhat). Your combat skills appear when you as the player learn them. You can't grind them up out of nothing by getting more points on your character sheet. You must actually learn them by practice and experience (real experience, not experience points).

And that's what I love about the MnB system. That when you become a good sword fighter, it hardly matters what your character sheet says, you're still a good sword fighter. And things like level, stats, gear, etc. become less and less of a factor in a fight as you get better. So that when you learn to feign, parry, dodge, block, strike, even if you re-roll your toon you still retain those skills as a player.

Now I don't care how they do the mechanics of it necessarily. It's not that I want combat here to even look anything like MnB. I'm not saying anything like 'Clone MnB'. MnB is just a good example of the things I describe above. I honestly don't care how they get there, but I would really like to see a combat system with the aspect I described above. Where levels and gear and stats play less of a critical role in success than player skill does.

We've all seen the level 20 run up and wale on the level 80 and the level 80 just stand there unaffected. When stats/levels/gear become the primary factor in combat, you're not fighting at all, a calculator is. And that's really the only reason I tout MnB, because it's the best example of breaking that mold that I know of.

It's the difference between being a good fighter because your stats/gear says you're a good fighter, and ACTUALLY BEING a good fighter.

If they can capture the essence of this, I'd play this game until the sun explodes.

EDIT: Just to clarify. I'm not saying stats/gear shouldn't matter at all. I'm saying that stats/gear shouldn't decide empirically. That out of two equally skilled swordsman, stats/gear could come into play. But also that an unskilled swordsman with the highest stats and the very best gear has very little chance against an expert swordsman with beginner stats and starter gear.

'Expert' being a title you earn through real practice and experience, not a title you grind up that's displayed on your character sheet.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Sometimes it's fast, other times it long, and sometimes it's just pure luck. The point is that it's a skill YOU as the player learn, and not a statistic that the character learns. Your combat skills don't automatically appear just because you get another point in some skill (while it may effect the odds somewhat). Your combat skills appear when you as the player learn them. You can't grind them up out of nothing by getting more points on your character sheet. You must actually learn them by practice and experience (real experience, not experience points).

And that's what I love about the MnB system. That when you become a good sword fighter, it hardly matters what your character sheet says, you're still a good sword fighter. And things like level, stats, gear, etc. become less and less of a factor in a fight as you get better. So that when you learn to feign, parry, dodge, block, strike, even if you re-roll your toon you still retain those skills as a player.

Now I don't care how they do the mechanics of it necessarily. It's not that I want combat here to even look anything like MnB. I'm not saying anything like 'Clone MnB'. MnB is just a good example of the things I describe above. I honestly don't care how they get there, but I would really like to see a combat system with the aspect I described above. Where levels and gear and stats play less of a critical role in success than player skill does.

We've all seen the level 20 run up and wale on the level 80 and the level 80 just stand there unaffected. When stats/levels/gear become the primary factor in combat, you're not fighting at all, a calculator is. And that's really the only reason I tout MnB, because it's the best example of breaking that mold that I know of.

It's the difference between being a good fighter because your stats/gear says you're a good fighter, and ACTUALLY BEING a good fighter.

If they can capture the essence of this, I'd play this game until the sun explodes.

EDIT: Just to clarify. I'm not saying stats/gear shouldn't matter at all. I'm saying that stats/gear shouldn't decide empirically. That out of two equally skilled swordsman, stats/gear could come into play. But also that an unskilled swordsman with the highest stats and the very best gear has very little chance against an expert swordsman with beginner stats and starter gear.

'Expert' being a title you earn through real practice and experience, not a title you grind up that's displayed on your character sheet.


It's funny lol all the reasons you love MnB are all the reasons why I love Demon Souls. In a lot of ways MnB and Demon Souls are similar. The differences being big when viewed from the outside but once you play both games their differences become smaller. Believe it or not Trench I do not want to see stats/gear become what defines you as a character, I do not want certain builds that are the end all to be all of PvP.

What I mean is I always hated games that said you had to gear or build your stats in a certain way to be good. I do want a system where skill is the deciding factor, which is why I'm asking for a system similar to demon souls. I believe Demon Souls found a nice balance between skill and stats/gear. I also am beginning to realize that lock-on, while it works in demon souls, is not necessarily the best thing to see in a PC game lol.

@Jcatano

Thanks for the laugh lol.

@Biotek

I certainly wouldn't mind a hybrid system, it could be interesting but I don't think I've played with many hybrid systems. Though I guess S.L.A.I had a hybrid system now that I think about it..... Could be fun. As long as they have a balance between all combat styles (by balance I mean weakness to at least a couple other styles) and skill counted more than stats.

@Belight

Yeah technological problems I could see happening.... To tell the truth I never even thought about hitboxes being a source of lag. Makes sense though, but one can certainly dream and hope.

[Trenchfoot]

Agreed wolfmoonstrike. I just hear lock-on and it makes me crazy....

Also think of how many problems it solves to place the actual skill of combat in the players hands like MnB does.

It would mean that macro grinding points would gain you very little, that players who are able to play 24/7 would no longer have an enormous advantage over the ones who can't, and that griefers would not as easily be able to chew on newer toons that know how to handle themselves.

It would allow 'naturals' to truly be naturals....

[wolfmoonstrike]

Agreed wolfmoonstrike. I just hear lock-on and it makes me crazy....

Also think of how many problems it solves to place the actual skill of combat in the players hands like MnB does.

It would mean that macro grinding points would gain you very little, that players who are able to play 24/7 would no longer have an enormous advantage over the ones who can't, and that griefers would not as easily be able to chew on newer toons that know how to handle themselves.

It would allow 'naturals' to truly be naturals....

I think a system that was easy to learn but hard to master would be great for situations like that ^^. Plus if there was a way to make it so a solo but skilled player could fend off 5 people then I think that would hopefully kill off a few zergs lol. To tell the truth I'm not sure if that's possible with a MnB system. I mean in MnB I could take on about 2-3 w/o too much worry but after 4+ things got a lot slimmer lol. Of course I'm thinking of the street fights.... On the battle field and on a horse with a warscythe, so many heads so little time lol.

But with that all said I think its up to us players to say what we'd like to see now before the overhaul and debate about it. Not saying anything we say will get put in that wouldn't already be put in but who knows we may actually come up with a system that suits everybody. A system based around player skill, has balance between combat styles (so not everybody is using weapon X or stats Y), A system that is easy to learn but hard to master. Personally I'm kinda miffed that currently to be a PvP character you need 90str/agi/frt, ok maybe NEED isn't quite right but if you ask somebody "what stats do I need to PvP" the answer is always those 3 stats....

[xyberviri]

Its probably been mentioned, but you dont have to lock on to your target to hit them, you just have to so you can see there health.

[Roxout]

To be honest I think we have come to the conclusion here that we want MnB with Xsyon sandbox elements not the other way around.

I for one would jump all over a post-apocalyptic MnB MMO. We seem to be hoping that the devs of the game will reinvent it to thesze expectations. At this point I think it would be easier to convince the devs of MnB to emulate this game than vise versa.

Perhaps a web petition to the developers of MnB is in order.

[Hellaciouss]

You're still suggesting one hit kills....I for one will refuse to play this game if that can happen EVER. One hit kills is the epitome of UNSKILLED.


Also, if there are no stats in this game at all on gear then entire point of crafting is pointless, absolutely pointless. There most be some contributing factor from gear, including BETTER GEAR or there is simply absolutely no reason to craft anything other then the basic crap.

[xyberviri]

right now with testing it looks like gear has no effect on combat. Weapons have some effect but not much. its mostly based on your skills at this time. Preordered weapons are pretty strong so that sorta leads me to belive that they some what do affect combat.


per my tests, your results may vary, im not speaking for the devs

[Trenchfoot]

right now with testing it looks like gear has no effect on combat. Weapons have some effect but not much. its mostly based on your skills at this time. Preordered weapons are pretty strong so that sorta leads me to belive that they some what do affect combat.

Are you saying dodge and parry are currently effective?

[orious13]

They already stated the want an MnB style. I doubt that's going to change... however they said "try" to get one made lol.

Also gear supposedly does work. Just that the gear probably isn't high quality and pre-order weapons are OP. Yes... even with the semi-working armor people die too fast. The current combat needs to be slowed down so that dodging and parrying is effective. They really aren't right now.

[Trenchfoot]

I don't think anyone is saying take stats off of gear or make gear or stats a non-issue. I know I didn't.

We're saying gear/stats should be a factor, which can then be overridden by superior player skill. In other words, gear/stats will be more important to unskilled players, and less important to skilled players. Nothing more.

It's like a crappy guitar player who blames the fact that he can't play on his cheap guitar. He can't wait to get his expensive guitar, then he'll really be able to play. Or the idea that you can jump higher if you wear the best sneakers.

I think what folks are really afraid of is true competition. Some people can't deal with the fact that someone else might be better at it than they are. They need the math so badly, their game revolves around it, and without it they couldn't pvp to save their life.

Math is great when it comes to let's say masonry or crafting skills. But combat is rooted in competition. It's the one area players should be allowed to shine just because they're good at it, not because they've spent more hours in game macro grinding stats.

We shouldn't be afraid to allow the cream to rise to the top.

@hellaciouss

The Wako kid hung up his guns after being shot in the backside by a 12 year old kid. Sound familiar? That was fictional. But in reality world history has been changed by a single hideously lucky shot. It happens. Even the best of the best should beware the amateur. If you walk around the game world without a single care of ever being defeated, the combat system is a joke. Should it be common? No. but it also shouldn't be out of the range of possibilities.

EDIT: And as far as crafting goes, I am a crafter. Love crafting, love terraforming, love world building, wouldn't give that up for anything. I came to this game with the hopes of having my cake and eat it to. Not necessarily expecting it, but enough to want to pay money to be a part of something that finally has everything I want out of a game (in concept). If they were to nix crafting in favor of combat I would be just as disappointed as I would if they implemented WURM style combat.

I believe a balance can be struck.

[maelwydd]

right now with testing it looks like gear has no effect on combat. Weapons have some effect but not much. its mostly based on your skills at this time. Preordered weapons are pretty strong so that sorta leads me to belive that they some what do affect combat.


per my tests, your results may vary, im not speaking for the devs

I tested this with a friend.

With no armour he took me out in 4 hits. I then put on an armour set (about level 30 or 40 leather but can't remember exact set) and I took 9 hits till I dropped. Armour does have an effect from what I can tell.

[Andius]

I really hope they try to stick close to the original idea during the overhaul. The whole click left to swing left, click right to swing right, sort of thing is actually really fun. They need to tighten the system up so that it works better, then either drop dodge and parry or make them more useful. It would be pretty cool if parry was replaced with some form of counter attack where if you time it right you block the blow and then land one on your opponent, and if you dodged a blow it put your opponent "off balance" which would work as a short stun. Though that will be hard to do until this game is very stable/non-laggy.

Also they need to figure out how to add and balance two handed and ranged weapons.

[wolfmoonstrike]

I really hope they try to stick close to the original idea during the overhaul. The whole click left to swing left, click right to swing right, sort of thing is actually really fun. They need to tighten the system up so that it works better, then either drop dodge and parry or make them more useful. It would be pretty cool if parry was replaced with some form of counter attack where if you time it right you block the blow and then land one on your opponent, and if you dodged a blow it put your opponent "off balance" which would work as a short stun. Though that will be hard to do until this game is very stable/non-laggy.

Also they need to figure out how to add and balance two handed and ranged weapons.

Demon Souls did all that ^^. L1 was your block, L2 was your parry with a shield. With a weapon in your left hand, one of the two functions would get replaced L1 could become your light attack or L2 could get replaced and become your heavy attack depending on the type of weapon. When you parried you would see an animation and an opening at which point you pressed R1 (your main weapon's light attack) to do some serious damage. It took some serious timing in PvE and timing +luck in PvP lol. I never did master parrying in PvP..... Hated those that did lol, because they were exceedingly difficult to beat.

Another cool thing is the weapons and stats weren't only balanced so that way a skilled player could overcome even someone pimped out but stats and weapons fed off each other. For example weapons had a rating in 4 of the stats (one had 5 but was hidden) The four stats were Magic, Faith, Dexterity, Strength. The higher their rating the more the stat did for the weapon (or shield). So if a weapon had an S in str, C in dex, E mag, -- in faith. It got a huge boost from a strength based character wielding it, dex helped somewhat, mag helped very little, and faith helps nothing.

For ranged, I think a rolling or even a sliding dodge may be helpful. Also in my original post under weapon balance I mention an idea between different kinds of weapons and even weapons of the same type and how they could be balanced. Take a look, I'd be willing to explain something if its not understandable or debate if you don't think something is quite right.

Added after 9 minutes:


I don't think anyone is saying take stats off of gear or make gear or stats a non-issue. I know I didn't.

We're saying gear/stats should be a factor, which can then be overridden by superior player skill. In other words, gear/stats will be more important to unskilled players, and less important to skilled players. Nothing more.

It's like a crappy guitar player who blames the fact that he can't play on his cheap guitar. He can't wait to get his expensive guitar, then he'll really be able to play. Or the idea that you can jump higher if you wear the best sneakers.

I think what folks are really afraid of is true competition. Some people can't deal with the fact that someone else might be better at it than they are. They need the math so badly, their game revolves around it, and without it they couldn't pvp to save their life.

Math is great when it comes to let's say masonry or crafting skills. But combat is rooted in competition. It's the one area players should be allowed to shine just because they're good at it, not because they've spent more hours in game macro grinding stats.

We shouldn't be afraid to allow the cream to rise to the top.

@hellaciouss

The Wako kid hung up his guns after being shot in the backside by a 12 year old kid. Sound familiar? That was fictional. But in reality world history has been changed by a single hideously lucky shot. It happens. Even the best of the best should beware the amateur. If you walk around the game world without a single care of ever being defeated, the combat system is a joke. Should it be common? No. but it also shouldn't be out of the range of possibilities.

EDIT: And as far as crafting goes, I am a crafter. Love crafting, love terraforming, love world building, wouldn't give that up for anything. I came to this game with the hopes of having my cake and eat it to. Not necessarily expecting it, but enough to want to pay money to be a part of something that finally has everything I want out of a game (in concept). If they were to nix crafting in favor of combat I would be just as disappointed as I would if they implemented WURM style combat.

I believe a balance can be struck.

Reason why I loved invading in Demon Souls. That game punished you for your foolishness, if you were ever overconfident, even on the PvE weaklings, you could get owned.

Also while I want a system based on skill, I certainly agree that weapons and armor should still be effective. I just would like to see a a highly skilled guy w/ low quality armor take on a low skilled guy with high quality armor and still win. But in a fight where two highly skilled warriors fight it out, the better equipped warrior should definitely have the edge. Of course luck and mood will always have effect on these fights, hubris is a great ally to your opponent.

Added after 6 minutes:


You're still suggesting one hit kills....I for one will refuse to play this game if that can happen EVER. One hit kills is the epitome of UNSKILLED.


Also, if there are no stats in this game at all on gear then entire point of crafting is pointless, absolutely pointless. There most be some contributing factor from gear, including BETTER GEAR or there is simply absolutely no reason to craft anything other then the basic crap.

Agreed on both points and I do not want to see One Hit kills, but I do want to see near death kills. Catch someone sleeping? Devastating damage. Parry and riposte? devastating damage. Just for a couple of examples lol.

[Andius]

As a leathercrafter, I feel the effect of weapons and armor should be light. Personally if a full set of armor only gave say 10-20% damage reduction, I would be fine with that. I feel a top PVPer should earn their place at the top, not by gear or grinding, but skill and strategy.

[orious13]

Demon souls has the parry/block, but parrying is almost useless with the slight lag problems. I wanted a parry class and it was very hard to make that viable at slvl 100 +. PvE was easy 80% of the time. There's a lot of shield+2H... and ignore shield weapon users... and my bro's faith+mirdain hammer rocked (I forgot what alot of the weapons were called). I was kind of disappointed that there wasn't as much end game viable choices for combat as I wanted for the pvp. It did take skill though. I even had a dagger guy that could only win a fight via backstabs... it was so rewarding lol, but so difficult. Just waited for mages to firestorm or whatever and they'd be out of luck.

[Hodo]

I havent replied to this thread, but about the Lock on system.

AH HELL TO THE NAW!!!

That has to be the dumbest thing since, the Smart Car.

If you want a good twitch combat system go with a Mount & Blade combat system. There is no lock on, shields and equipment actually get in the way, and solid objects will stop your weapon. Great system its closest to the real thing as your going to get. Its so good that even Mortal Offline has attempted it.

[boomer0901]

Sorry wolf I read your post and tried to read some of hte rest of the comments, but I watched like 4 mins of this video and the only thing I can say is 7 min duels seriously. No I like the idea of dodging, parrying and actually swinging a weapon to use energy stamina, but watching how fast it regened might as well just have unlimited and then to top it off you're all healing yourselves in the middle of combat, hell no, I don't want no 12 min battle with healing potions, lock ons and that kind of crap.

But I like the idea of changing your weapons, maybe they could have a blacksmithing skills if you wanted to add like 10cm to your axe shaft or add 16oz to your club, something to like that we would be fun to play around with, the weapon possiblities would be endless. I still think like others have said in an MMO like this a simple set of M&B combat would be best, short fights, skill plays a factor and possibly the whole blacksmithing idea.

[NorCalGooey]

Just use everything Mount and Blade has done as your basis for combat and THEN add on any features you think may add realism or fun. But I don't think anyone will beat that system. There's nothing better than being able to stop someone from hitting you because you aren't any idiot and know how to flick your mouse one direction and click at the same time.

Nope, I've yet to find a more skillful combat system.