Thoughts about Xsyon and future

[treyu]

I don't usually make posts like this because I understand that no one better than the devs knows what the problems with their game are, how to develop it and their resources to do so. But as I have been beta testing this game since the beginning, and I really want this game to evolve and be successful and I think now it is a critical period, I decided to share my opinions. Sorry for the wall of text :)

The two things that must be fixed VERY soon (with very soon, I mean no more than 2 weeks from now) are LAG and PERFORMANCE. This is critical, many other games suffered of this at the begginning and never ever recovered from that. For Xsyon, this is even more important, as the game is not finished (in content) till Prelude ends, so having a content unfinished game that also is unplayable due to lag and performance, will kill it in a few more days. I am sorry to say this, but all this lag problems and performance have been here since beta. Every month since the beginning I made some posts (and also a bug report and some email-talking with Jookie) about how performance was not good and would be a problem once the game released and more people came into the game. And here we are, with a i5 2,6Ghz, Geforce gtx 285, 4gb RAM DDR3 and having again 15-25 FPS and still the same shadows flickering everywhere. The performance hit ALWAYS shows when the world starts having terraformed terrain and cities built. When the game released (or in beta, when there was a wipe), the game run much better performance wise (40-70 FPS for me). The lag, well beta always had some lag weeks, though now it is getting much better and I know it will be entirely fixed very soon. Performance... I am not so sure, as they haven't done much about it during the beta and I am not sure if they know how important it is. So for me, they should focus 100%, even paying new coders if neccesary for some weeks, to fix lag and performance and very soon. Once this is done, everything will go smooth.

But they also need to add content and very soon too. And the most important content to be added in the following weeks (and not months, I mean weeks) are:

- PvE: more animals, more mob types, maybe a dungeon with interesting rewards...lot of options, but it is needed.

- Politics and clan wars: crucial too. If this was in, people bored of the only thing to do ingame at the moment (crafting and gathering) could create their own content too, and beleive me, this can make players stay for months in the game while you continue developing all the things that need to be implemented.

- Combat revamp: this is crucial. Apart from crafting and gathering, there is nothing to do at the moment, and it is already getting old. With a combat revamp, people can create content like PvP and maybe PvE.


I know I am a mere player, so please no bashing in this thread, just wanted to say what I think based on my mmo experience and beta test of this game, and also hear others opinions on how they are seeing the imminent future of it. But overall, this Dev Team deserves respect for having created such a wonderfull game already, but we can't be blind and that is not enough and if the above things are not made and soon, I think it will be too late.

[JCatano]

About that combat revamp... Is the "new guy" familiar with the code, yet, Jordi? It's not necessarily a good thing when combat happens and everyone in Vent is laughing hysterically because of how lame it looks. :)

[mrcalhou]

More content would be great and really is necessary. The other thing that needs to occur is balance with respect to items and resources. The decay needs to increase significantly and/or items and equipment should be flat-out destroyed upon death. There's just too many items that most people are just craft-grinding and then throwing stuff away. The system is pretty broken at the moment.

[Jadzia]

equipment should be flat-out destroyed upon death.

This. Time to lose everything upon PvE death, that will keep the economy alive. (And add animals to have mobs to die for.)

[joecool87]

more pve is a must imo

the crafting and building sides can be merged a bit
like the tech tree of RTS...require some buildings to research some knowledges in order to craft something

the force pvp thingy...maybe a karma system or evidence and trace system

GL ALL and XSYON

[xyberviri]

If the action delay issue(im not going to call it lag anymore because its Not lag) and the stability on crossing multiple zones can be resolved. This game could explode its man love all over the UO and Wurm players looking for the spiritual successor to those games. So much that we would have to get a 2nd and 3rd server to support the influx of players.

Thats with what we just have now and some refinement. if more toys were added to the sandbox then you would have a golden ticket.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Pre order weapons need a major nerf. Right now they hit harder than anything our lvl 90 weaponcrafter can make. These need to be a fallback emergency weapon. What do you think will happen when a non pre order player joins the game works hard and is killed by naked players weilding overpowered starter weapons all the time? You will either have to give them the "special pre order weapon" or nerf it to keep them in the game. Might as well do it now. Why not just remove them all together. Personally I feel they take away from the game's survival feel.


This. Time to lose everything upon PvE death, that will keep the economy alive. (And add animals to have mobs to die for.)

Corpse runs...

[Jadzia]

Pre order weapons need a major nerf. Right now they hit harder than anything our lvl 90 weaponcrafter can make. These need to be a fallback emergency weapon. What do you think will happen when a non pre order player joins the game works hard and is killed by naked players weilding overpowered starter weapons all the time? You will either have to give them the "special pre order weapon" or nerf it to keep them in the game. Might as well do it now. Why not just remove them all together. Personally I feel they take away from the game's survival feel.



Corpse runs...

Not corpse run :) We should drop everything in PvE death and all the stuffs should disappear in 1 min.

[bruisie159]

Pre order weapons need a major nerf. Right now they hit harder than anything our lvl 90 weaponcrafter can make. These need to be a fallback emergency weapon. What do you think will happen when a non pre order player joins the game works hard and is killed by naked players weilding overpowered starter weapons all the time? You will either have to give them the "special pre order weapon" or nerf it to keep them in the game. Might as well do it now. Why not just remove them all together. Personally I feel they take away from the game's survival feel.



Corpse runs...

The devs may have expected by now for many more people to have joined and so the % with pre order weapons would decrease over time. Unfortunatly I dont think we have had a big influx of players, rather people have stopped playing, since in between the 2 "launches"

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Not corpse run :) We should drop everything in PvE death and all the stuffs should disappear in 1 min.
Why not just get the promised item decay system working first? I always had fun in darkfail coming across some high level player's tombstone and taking the goodies. I think corpse runs with maybe a 20 minute decay timer would be better than 1 minute. It'd suck to fall off a cliff and lose everything. How about getting killed in a 10 minute delay? That's not going to keep people paying...

[Dade512]

Not corpse run :) We should drop everything in PvE death and all the stuffs should disappear in 1 min.

That's an idea i can see a lot of players not going for and a lot of people quitting or not subscribing over. A less dramatic option might be to allow people to either respawn at the same point which they died (no corpse running or any ability to move for that matter) or they can respawn at the totem but anything in their pack/pouches stays where they died (in like a temporary basket) and is lootable for a reasonable duration, so they can realistically get back to it.

Not many people would be keen on losing everything they had when so much can happen. Your game can crash and your character can stay running right off a cliff to his death. You could have some lag and meet that invisible bear that likes to run around. You could be exhausted and meet your end at the cruel hands of a marauding raccoon.

Edit: it appears Dontaze beat me to the punch while I was away from the comp.

[Jadzia]

Why not just get the promised item decay system working first? I always had fun in darkfail coming across some high level player's tombstone and taking the goodies. I think corpse runs with maybe a 20 minute decay timer would be better than 1 minute. It'd suck to fall off a cliff and lose everything. How about getting killed in a 10 minute delay? That's not going to keep people paying...

The goal of losing items on PvE death should be to take out items from the system to keep the economy going. Corpse run would destroy this totally, since you or someone else would get the items back. I don't think it would drive people aways from the game since it really easy to replace the lost items.

This could be a quick fix for now to keep the economy going and to give reason to craft items while the system is so laggy. Implementing item decay would cost the server, losing items on PvE death wouldn't.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

The goal of losing items on PvE death should be to take out items from the system to keep the economy going. Corpse run would destroy this totally, since you or someone else would get the items back. I don't think it would drive people aways from the game since it really easy to replace the lost items.

This could be a quick fix for now to keep the economy going and to give reason to craft items while the system is so laggy. Implementing item decay would cost the server, losing items on PvE death wouldn't.

I agree something needs to be done to boost the economy, but losing all your gear on any death simply is a bad idea when the game is so unpolished.

[Jadzia]

I agree something needs to be done to boost the economy, but losing all your gear on any death simply is a bad idea when the game is so unpolished.

In a game with a full loot PvP system the PvE death having the same penalty is a logical decision and good for the economy. Why should it make any difference if another player killed you or a bear ?

[Dade512]

It's one thing if a player kills you and loots you. It's another thing if you die due to something out of your control (lag spikes etc) and your gear vanishes in a puff of pixels because you can't back to it in a matter of 1min, as you suggest.

[Jadzia]

It's one thing if a player kills you and loots you. It's another thing if you die due to something out of your control (lag spikes etc) and your gear vanishes in a puff of pixels because you can't back to it in a matter of 1min, as you suggest.

I totally agree, dieing because of lag spikes is very annoying and unfair. But this may happen in PvP too so where is the difference...
Some days ago a guy in my zone was killed and fully looted by a player while he was lagging badly and got disconnected. He logged back and saw that he lost everything and got very mad, he didn't even know who killed him. Lag spikes are dangerous and unfair in PvP as well. Still its not a reason to take full loot out of the game.

[YamiOkami]

To weigh in, you cannot have an economy without loosing your stuff... It will stagnate. A personal opinion but we need item decay, item loss etc not only to keep the economy flowing, but also to keep it fun. Can any of you out there tell me you get the same rush with combat in, standard example, WoW? Of course not... all you get is a small repair bill, it becomes stagnant after about 5 minutes of pve. We may loose a few people who think that it is a bore, but look what happened when UO started to appease the crowd who wanted the game easier, and different... It stagnated and died.

One thing i personally would recommend to the devs would be area specific crafted items. An armour set for tribes in a certain area... a specific weapon for a specific tribe. At the moment all decent tribes can make nearly everything, to the point where there is no trade. Setting up scenarios where you discover recipes by settling in a specific area or going exploring will cause expanded trade and open up diplomacy.

However, mini wall of text aside. I am happy to wait... When i bought this game, i realised it would have its problems setting up, as i imagine most people did. I think many of the issues found were only discovered because enough people were playing at the same time.... which only the launch could have acheived.

[Dade512]

I'd still rather see something like I suggested above rather than the complete inability to get back to your stuff. A game mechanic that makes it impossible to retrieve your stuff 95% of the time will ruin it for a lot of people.

[YamiOkami]

I'd still rather see something like I suggested above rather than the complete inability to get back to your stuff. A game mechanic that makes it impossible to retrieve your stuff 95% of the time will ruin it for a lot of people.

Well if you are scared of loosing your stuff you can leave the things you want to keep back and go out with friends who can loot you if you die. The threat of loss makes it all the more important to form hunting parties and have backup when you pve.

Granted lag death and crash death will suck... but many people have played games where it has happened and survived, it was annoying, but that is why you keep spares and dont take out anything you can't afford to replace :)

[Dade512]

You're looking at it from a niche point of view in my opinion. In a game no bigger than this, would it not be better to implement something that can be accepted by everyone?
In Asheron's call you always dropped something when you died but you had time to make it back to your body, if you could. That's merely all I'm suggesting. A low timer, supposedly in the name of a flourishing market, is ludicrous when you consider the fact it really WON'T stimulate the economy. People will just have their tribe-mates craft them something. It won't help the in-game economy it'll just create a timesink.

[YamiOkami]

But surely even the need to keep replacing items becomes important in it's own right? Having to replace items for tribesmates is important in itself. If there is no item loss or item decay, what is the point of crafting after the initial few weeks? Crafting needs to be kept important, no loss means there is little to no demand, If noone lost weapons, weaponcrafters would soon become pointless.

The mats for the basic stuff is simple to get. It isnt exactly a huge time sink, and it creates a reason to keep logging on and crafting for people who have no interest in pve or pvp right now, or possibly ever

[Dade512]

But surely even the need to keep replacing items becomes important in it's own right? Having to replace items for tribesmates is important in itself. If there is no item loss or item decay, what is the point of crafting after the initial few weeks? Crafting needs to be kept important, no loss means there is little to no demand, If noone lost weapons, weaponcrafters would soon become pointless.

The mats for the basic stuff is simple to get. It isnt exactly a huge time sink, and it creates a reason to keep logging on and crafting for people who have no interest in pve or pvp right now, or possibly ever

Once he turns on item decay you'll have to be replacing things anyway. Everyone is acting like this, the most basic version of the game, is the whole game. There are features yet to be turned on. Item and skill decay, I think, are tops among them.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm all for keeping the economy flourishing. This game will be nothing without a flourishing in game community/economy. All I'm trying to stress is if people are losing items to NOTHING with no hope of recovering them due to in-game mechanics it will turn a lot of people off. If someone kills you and steals your goods you can go kill him and get them back, but if the server eats them in 1 or 2 min and you never had a chance to get them back that's a different story. I'm all for item decay and items needing repair and losing quality etc, I do believe it'll help keep the economy flowing.

[YamiOkami]

Well lets agree to disagree, i see your point, but I personally prefer the thrill of possibly loosing my items while pvp/pve'ing, and i'm sure your points are just as valid as mine. There's no real need to turn this into a mass debate, especially as we have no idea what will happen :)

[Dade512]

haha...I can agree to that.
That's one thing I hate about discussions like this is we really only have the loosest idea of what's coming up.

[mrcalhou]

Not corpse run :) We should drop everything in PvE death and all the stuffs should disappear in 1 min.
I'm glad someone agrees with my idea, but I don't like your version of it. I think some items and equipment should be destroyed on death whether it's pvp or pve; however I do not think that ALL items should be destroyed, only some.

And yes, I'm totally jacking this idea from Eve, but it works really over there. Might as well try and adopt and adapt it.

[Zarin]

I'm glad someone agrees with my idea, but I don't like your version of it. I think some items and equipment should be destroyed on death whether it's pvp or pve; however I do not think that ALL items should be destroyed, only some.

And yes, I'm totally jacking this idea from Eve, but it works really over there. Might as well try and adopt and adapt it.

I'm kinda on the fence about the idea - seems it would help the economy, but what items do you think should be destroyed when killed during PvE?

[JCatano]

Let him turn on decay to see how fast items leave the circle before you start coming up with more processes his code probably can't handle.

[mrcalhou]

I'm kinda on the fence about the idea - seems it would help the economy, but what items do you think should be destroyed when killed during PvE?

I think items should be destroyed in both PvP and PvE. With that said, any item that can be attached to your character should be destroyable. Though not all of them at once like Jadzia suggested.

[Zarin]

I think items should be destroyed in both PvP and PvE. With that said, any item that can be attached to your character should be destroyable. Though not all of them at once like Jadzia suggested.

Maybe any items attached to your character are immediately destroyed and all other items have a quicker decay added to them?

[mrcalhou]

Maybe any items attached to your character are immediately destroyed and all other items have a quicker decay added to them?

No, that's not what I'm saying. Lets say you have a ton of equipment on you. There'd be 100% chance that one piece would break, maybe a 70% chance another would break, a 30% chance a third would break, a 5% chance a 4th would break, and a 1% chance for each other peice of equipment. Then it'd be random which one breaks.

But definitely not all of them. It'd be entirely too much.

[Jadzia]

But definitely not all of them. It'd be entirely too much.

Why ? Seriously, its very easy to replace everything. People already have a chance to lose all of their stuffs in PvP, so no one runs around carrying things he can't afford to lose. I just don't see the difference between PvP death and PvE death...it should have the same penalty. You die, you lose your stuffs, no matter why you died. It would give the same feeling of danger in PvE as in PvP. I don't understand why should there be different consequences of PvE death and PvP death. Players are ready to lose their stuffs in PvP but not in PvE ? Why ? I'm not trying to provoke you, I really don't understand.

[Zarin]

No, that's not what I'm saying. Lets say you have a ton of equipment on you. There'd be 100% chance that one piece would break, maybe a 70% chance another would break, a 30% chance a third would break, a 5% chance a 4th would break, and a 1% chance for each other peice of equipment. Then it'd be random which one breaks.

But definitely not all of them. It'd be entirely too much.

Yeah I like that idea, but I do think that a faster decay should be added. It helps the economy and just makes sense. If you go an wrestle with a bear and die chances are some equipment is destroyed and the rest at least has some damage(decay) added to it.

[JCatano]

Any death takes a % of durability from the gear. Normal decay, along with death decay.

He needs to make looting more simple. It's obvious that his code is already too messy to handle lots of processes that just aren't needed.

Any death leaves a corpse. Dead player instantly hits loading screen to respawn at totem (until a revive skill is implemented). All items stay on the corpse. It stay up for 30 minutes or until fully looted. This also helps to stop the situation where people sprint around corpses for a minute during battle so their buddy doesn't get looted. It's ridiculous.

[jumpshot]

I dunno but the last thing we need is more nakeds running around.

[Salvadore]

Not corpse run :) We should drop everything in PvE death and all the stuffs should disappear in 1 min.


The goal of losing items on PvE death should be to take out items from the system to keep the economy going. Corpse run would destroy this totally, since you or someone else would get the items back. I don't think it would drive people aways from the game since it really easy to replace the lost items.

This could be a quick fix for now to keep the economy going and to give reason to craft items while the system is so laggy. Implementing item decay would cost the server, losing items on PvE death wouldn't.

Clever girl...I see what you are doing...you've actually *sorta* proposed a decent argument. The only thing is it is flawed, especially coming from you.

You PERSONALLY would love to see this proposed idea happen. This would discourage people from pvp and the loss of items. This would also penalize ANYONE/EVERYONE that steps out of their safezones, regardless of pvp, pve, accidental falling, even disconnections. YOU would like this because it would sway the entire game to your *style* of gameplay. Your tribe isnt really interested in leaving your village, thus, no penalty for YOU. It would be pure gain for your *style* due to an overabundance of crafted items to barter with.

YOU arent looking at the wide picture of the game and the players in it. Another idea proposed by YOU that involves all gain/no risk and enforces a "safe" *style* of gameplay.

The economy will go on just fine regardless of all items on body destroyed instantly or over time. There currently is NOTHING to do besides crafting items anyway, so nobody should have a shortage. People dont leave homesteads currently AT ALL, so it defeats the whole purpose of your post.

Corpse runs are a fair, BALANCED, way for EVERYONE (even the solo player) to at least have a chance to salvage their hard earned personal goods. Chances are, most items on a body are currently useless anyway due to the other horrible imbalances present, but that shouldnt penalize anyone. So what if someone loots it from pvp, or just happens to come across a dead body and loot it. It shouldnt be hard code enforced to favor YOU or any other crafter.

[JCatano]

I dunno but the last thing we need is more nakeds running around.

Armor needs to actually work. We need some visual numbers about what they actually do.

And...

Salvadore is very smart.

[mrcalhou]

Why ? Seriously, its very easy to replace everything. People already have a chance to lose all of their stuffs in PvP, so no one runs around carrying things he can't afford to lose. I just don't see the difference between PvP death and PvE death...it should have the same penalty. You die, you lose your stuffs, no matter why you died. It would give the same feeling of danger in PvE as in PvP. I don't understand why should there be different consequences of PvE death and PvP death. Players are ready to lose their stuffs in PvP but not in PvE ? Why ? I'm not trying to provoke you, I really don't understand.

Because if some items do not get destroyed from a PvP death, then all of the equipment is just swapping hands. That's fine, but it doesn't solve the problem of the game being inundated with equipment. It needs to be removed COMPLETELY from the game for that to happen.

The other thing is that with PvP, there's a greater chance that someone will end up dying. Which helps increase the need for craftable replacements. It's not about punishing pvp players, it's about stimulating the need for craftable goods.

And I see the way you are thinking about it. You're thinking about it solely as a death penelty. But that's not the way I completely see it. Yes, the death penalty part is one aspect, but not the sole aspect. Even if you die in PvE, you personally would run the risk of losing everything. We respawn at totems so we would still need to run back to our bodies. In that time someone else could have stumbled upon the items we left behind and took them. It's not like you would always get everything back even if you die in PvE.

The last thing is that it doesn't discriminate and the developers wouldn't have to bother progamming different If > Then variables. It'd always be "If Player x dies then check to destroy items." No having to worry about "If player x died, did other player do 51% damage? Yes destroy nothing. No destroy somethings." (Yes I don't know programming, but it's just an illustration from code I have seen).

[Salvadore]

How things should happen -

*Death* - player dies, doesnt matter how (pvp, pve, discon/killed, or personal choice of cliffdiving onto flat rocks below)

Player respawns at totem. Body stays in dead state indefinitely at location they died. It should be visible to all, lootable by all, and not degrade except for a long time (say maybe half hour, maybe more). ALL ITEMS, from gear equipped to purses/pouches and everything in them, should stay on body visible to anyone who chooses to walk by or loot. If a person has a full rubicon set equipped upon death, corpse should display that properly, just as items are removed from it, displayed as well.

After alotted time (half hour or more) corpse removes itself, all items left are deleted/destroyed by the system. This gives fair time for accidental death players to return to loot their body, pvp victors to do what they will, pve players to have fair chance to recoup losses, AND also adds ability for players to find random dead bodies in the woods (should be possible, right?).

Also, think of tribal warfare - imagine the dead bodies scattered everywhere after a massive battle. The bodies didnt just dissapear...they had to be dealt with. This usually happened AFTER the looters picked through the items they wanted.

NOW, after stating that, I would add this *DOWN THE ROAD FROM NOW*: http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/2387-Death-Cannibalism-Bury?highlight=cannibalism

That is a thread on cannibalism/bury. This should coincide with the alignment system. Evil players could cannibalize/deal with corpses/victims killed in pvp or random dead body encounters. They would get the obvious alignment adjustments for *cannibalism* activities, along with the gain of loot/skinning/food/bones/etc. This is a BALANCE of being evil. For the good people, they could bury the body (aka click-destroy-burial) which would give alignment boosts for doing a good deed, aka proper RELIGIOUS burial.

There is MUCH MORE DEPTH capable there with the same exact economical benefits. If a tree is felled, and logs are made, they stay in this game world indefinitely...why wouldnt items on death or even a dead body in the woods?

*Easily have npc animal dead bodies have the same characteristics as human bodies with the same destroy timer, say half hour, and much more content is added to the game overall. Benefits EVERYONE and is balanced.

[Zarin]

How things should happen -

*Death* - player dies, doesnt matter how (pvp, pve, discon/killed, or personal choice of cliffdiving onto flat rocks below)

Player respawns at totem. Body stays in dead state indefinitely at location they died. It should be visible to all, lootable by all, and not degrade except for a long time (say maybe half hour, maybe more). ALL ITEMS, from gear equipped to purses/pouches and everything in them, should stay on body visible to anyone who chooses to walk by or loot. If a person has a full rubicon set equipped upon death, corpse should display that properly, just as items are removed from it, displayed as well.

After alotted time (half hour or more) corpse removes itself, all items left are deleted/destroyed by the system. This gives fair time for accidental death players to return to loot their body, pvp victors to do what they will, pve players to have fair chance to recoup losses, AND also adds ability for players to find random dead bodies in the woods (should be possible, right?).

Also, think of tribal warfare - imagine the dead bodies scattered everywhere after a massive battle. The bodies didnt just dissapear...they had to be dealt with. This usually happened AFTER the looters picked through the items they wanted.

NOW, after stating that, I would add this *DOWN THE ROAD FROM NOW*: http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/2387-Death-Cannibalism-Bury?highlight=cannibalism

That is a thread on cannibalism/bury. This should coincide with the alignment system. Evil players could cannibalize/deal with corpses/victims killed in pvp or random dead body encounters. They would get the obvious alignment adjustments for *cannibalism* activities, along with the gain of loot/skinning/food/bones/etc. This is a BALANCE of being evil. For the good people, they could bury the body (aka click-destroy-burial) which would give alignment boosts for doing a good dead, aka proper RELIGIOUS burial.

There is MUCH MORE DEPTH capable there with the same exact economical benefits. If a tree is felled, and logs are made, they stay in this game world indefinitely...why wouldnt items on death or even a dead body in the woods?

*Easily have npc animal dead bodies have the same characteristics as human bodies with the same destroy timer, say half hour, and much more content is added to the game overall. Benefits EVERYONE and is balanced.

A resonable timer based on how far you respawn from your body should be in. If your unable to get you stuff back or get a friend to grab it in 45 min then your SOL and the items are destroyed, but at least you have a fair chance to get them back...

I'd imagine though that most players will make sure to get the items back or another player picks them up... To that I say there should be a system like Mrcalhou said above where equipment has a chance that they are destroyed completely. And their should be a system where a good deal of damage/decay is added to all items, so they are going to destroy much quicker than a freshly crafted one.

[Jadzia]

Because if some items do not get destroyed from a PvP death, then all of the equipment is just swapping hands. That's fine, but it doesn't solve the problem of the game being inundated with equipment. It needs to be removed COMPLETELY from the game for that to happen.

The other thing is that with PvP, there's a greater chance that someone will end up dying. Which helps increase the need for craftable replacements. It's not about punishing pvp players, it's about stimulating the need for craftable goods.

And I see the way you are thinking about it. You're thinking about it solely as a death penelty. But that's not the way I completely see it. Yes, the death penalty part is one aspect, but not the sole aspect. Even if you die in PvE, you personally would run the risk of losing everything. We respawn at totems so we would still need to run back to our bodies. In that time someone else could have stumbled upon the items we left behind and took them. It's not like you would always get everything back even if you die in PvE.

The last thing is that it doesn't discriminate and the developers wouldn't have to bother progamming different If > Then variables. It'd always be "If Player x dies then check to destroy items." No having to worry about "If player x died, did other player do 51% damage? Yes destroy nothing. No destroy somethings." (Yes I don't know programming, but it's just an illustration from code I have seen).

What I suggested wouldn't require any different programming. If a player dies, every item he has would be dropped on the ground. No matter why he died. No worries for the programmers. The bag containing all of his items would stay there for some mins, definitely not enough for a corpse run, but enough to be looted if there are players around.
Destroying items in case of PvP death is unfair, why to take the reward away from the PvPer ? If PvE death results item drop then its enough to keep the economy going.

Lol am I the only one who played a game where death always had the same consequences regardless to the reason of death, as in dropping all of your items when you die ? It gives a great feel of danger, encourages group PvE, and drives the economy. It works very well in a game which only has player crafted items.

@Salvador: its kinda funny how many prejudices you have about me :) I'm a solo player now, all the safe zone I have is a homestead area and I spend 90% of my time out of it. I'm sure I'll die much more times in game due to PvE then PvP. I suggested my idea because I know it works, and not to gain any advantages.

[Salvadore]

A resonable timer based on how far you respawn from your body should be in. If your unable to get you stuff back or get a friend to grab it in 45 min then your SOL and the items are destroyed, but at least you have a fair chance to get them back...

I'd imagine though that most players will make sure to get the items back or another player picks them up... To that I say there should be a system like Mrcalhou said above where equipment has a chance that they are destroyed completely. And their should be a system where a good deal of damage/decay is added to all items, so they are going to destroy much quicker than a freshly crafted one.

I wouldn't make a relative timer based on distance - If i ran across the map to pick a fight with another tribe, I wouldnt expect my body to be there forever. Should be the same timer all around IMO, and make it a longer timer.

I like the idea of *durability* on items, and losing them in combat. I think, however, there is MANY MORE other things that need proper balancing attention before that is even considered. Again, i agree with the idea...obviously if someone (in pvp) gets their head flattened by a giant hammer...their helmet probably isnt going to be salvageable ;]

Added after 9 minutes:


What I suggested wouldn't require any different programming. If a player dies, every item he has would be dropped on the ground. No matter why he died. No worries for the programmers. The bag containing all of his items would stay there for some mins, definitely not enough for a corpse run, but enough to be looted if there are players around.
Destroying items in case of PvP death is unfair, why to take the reward away from the PvPer ? If PvE death results item drop then its enough to keep the economy going.


So, it wouldnt require any other programming? You mean changing the "face down dead body" image one sees when a player died getting changed to a BAG wouldnt be any change in programming? Why not leave it as a body (as it is now) and simply adjusting the timer on it? Same thing right? Rather than a small BAG that nobody would see in grass...



Lol am I the only one who played a game where death always had the same consequences regardless to the reason of death, as in dropping all of your items when you die ? It gives a great feel of danger, encourages group PvE, and drives the economy. It works very well in a game which only has player crafted items.


No, you aren't. Many of us have played, and rather enjoyed, the "meaner" style games...say UO, DF, etc. Im a full advocate of full loot because of its risks involved, as well as the rewards that are promoted by it. I personally hate games like WoW that have virtually no real risk for dying at any time. I lol at "loss of xp on death" and similar things as a risk for death.


@Salvador: its kinda funny how many prejudices you have about me :) I'm a solo player now, all the safe zone I have is a homestead area and I spend 90% of my time out of it. I'm sure I'll die much more times in game due to PvE then PvP. I suggested my idea because I know it works, and not to gain any advantages.

You are mistaken - I dont have a single "prejudice" about you. In every single "idea" thread I've ever seen you post, you could simply save the spin you put on it by posting "supports the pve/carebear side". You really sound as if you are posting with goals of your own benefit...NOT of balance or advancement of the game.

Of course your idea "will work". Hell, at this point, it is technically *working* anyway. Your idea, just as i stated earlier, again "supports the pve/carebear side".

[kergan]

Well lets agree to disagree, i see your point, but I personally prefer the thrill of possibly loosing my items while pvp/pve'ing, and i'm sure your points are just as valid as mine. There's no real need to turn this into a mass debate, especially as we have no idea what will happen :)

Easy answer without the need to tailor the game for you. Just promise yourself that if you die, you will delete everything you have on you. Better yet, delete your toon and re-roll. Now we're talking thrilling! Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if eventually there's some tribe that adopts this playstyle. It would be very do-able in this game once all the features are in and it's stable.

[Jadzia]

@Salvadore:
1. Sure, it can be the dead body as well, it doesn't make any difference just that you have to wait for that some mins to respawn till the looting timer is on, but thats not a big thing. The different coding comment was meant to differently code on PvE death and PvP death, read mrcalhou's post and you will understand.

2. If you played that and enjoyed then whats your problem with it ?

3. You said it worked like that in UO. So how is that idea unbalanced ? I really don't understand how a harsh PvE penalty supports PvE/carebear style. All of us will PvE, won't we ? Please elaborate.

And how is the idea 'technically' working now ? You don't lose anything in PvE death.

[Salvadore]

@Salvadore:
1. Sure, it can be the dead body as well, it doesn't make any difference just that you have to wait for that some mins to respawn till the looting timer is on, but thats not a big thing. The different coding comment was meant to differently code on PvE death and PvP death, read mrcalhou's post and you will understand.

2. If you played that and enjoyed then whats your problem with it ?

3. You said it worked like that in UO. So how is that idea unbalanced ? I really don't understand how a harsh PvE penalty supports PvE/carebear style. All of us will PvE, won't we ? Please elaborate.

And how is the idea 'technically' working now ? You don't lose anything in PvE death.

1. I do understand, but why "code" any death differently? It should have the same consequences regardless of how it happens. It shouldnt favor one type of deaths over the other.

2. I didnt have a single problem with it. I thoroughly enjoyed it. All items a player carries should drop on death, just like UO. It provides rewards, the ability to recoup ones losses from an accidental death, and boost the economy. People prepare more and are less reckless involving death when there are consequences. Thus why you have nakeds running around punching people as their only form of entertainment. No risk all gain.

3. I didnt think it was unbalanced, at all, in UO. You would die to discons and accidents sometimes, but you had a chance to at least recoup your losses there. Penalties shouldnt be any different for pve as compared to any other deaths. If you add any risks or rewards to any type of death, you are simply adding more to un-balance. YES, I will pve. It is a necessity. But if I have the ability to exploit the system - knowing my death/loot will be different if i recklesly try to kill a bear as opposed to a person, I will obviously act accordingly. So will you, so will everyone else. Make it all have the necessary, and same, consequences.

It's technically working the way you are wanting it to work NOW - if a bear kills you, you lose nothing, dont have to worry about any consequences, retain all of your stuff (hypothetically speaking if you only have PO weapon equipped and proper permissions bag equipped), and respawn immediately. No risk, all gain. Ill throw myself at that bear until I kill it and gain, no risk besides time wasted on how many times i try to kill it.

Shouldnt be that way. Should have risk. Should have equivalent reward.

[Jadzia]

1. I do understand, but why "code" any death differently? It should have the same consequences regardless of how it happens. It shouldnt favor one type of deaths over the other.

2. I didnt have a single problem with it. I thoroughly enjoyed it. All items a player carries should drop on death, just like UO. It provides rewards, the ability to recoup ones losses from an accidental death, and boost the economy. People prepare more and are less reckless involving death when there are consequences. Thus why you have nakeds running around punching people as their only form of entertainment. No risk all gain.

3. I didnt think it was unbalanced, at all, in UO. You would die to discons and accidents sometimes, but you had a chance to at least recoup your losses there. Penalties shouldnt be any different for pve as compared to any other deaths. If you add any risks or rewards to any type of death, you are simply adding more to un-balance. YES, I will pve. It is a necessity. But if I have the ability to exploit the system - knowing my death/loot will be different if i recklesly try to kill a bear as opposed to a person, I will obviously act accordingly. So will you, so will everyone else. Make it all have the necessary, and same, consequences.

It's technically working the way you are wanting it to work NOW - if a bear kills you, you lose nothing, dont have to worry about any consequences, retain all of your stuff (hypothetically speaking if you only have PO weapon equipped and proper permissions bag equipped), and respawn immediately. No risk, all gain. Ill throw myself at that bear until I kill it and gain, no risk besides time wasted on how many times i try to kill it.

Shouldnt be that way. Should have risk. Should have equivalent reward.

1. Yes. This is what I've suggested. Same consequences on death regardless of the reason of death.

2. Totally agree, thats why I suggested that idea.

3. I want balance and PvE risk and a flourishing economy. Thats why I suggested that we should drop everything in case of PvE death without a corpse run. Players should lose all their items in case of PvE death just like in case of PvP death.

Lol :) Seems you misread my post. I suggested that PvP and PvE death should have the same consequence...as in drop everything in case of death. If a player died in PvP then the PKers should be able to full loot him/her, if the player died in PvE then he/she should lose everything he/she had without the ability of a corpse run. So why exactly are you arguing with me ? :)

[Salvadore]

So why exactly are you arguing with me ? :)

Because of:


If a player died in PvP then the PKers should be able to full loot him/her, if the player died in PvE then he/she should lose everything he/she had without the ability of a corpse run.

and:


Not corpse run :) We should drop everything in PvE death and all the stuffs should disappear in 1 min.

Im pseudo agreeing with parts you've said, but mainly disagreeing with these quoted things.

Should have the ability for "corpse runs" fairly, regardless of cause of death. This adds all the aforementioned and debated details. Make the timer something like 30 minutes, like UO, on the corpse decay. Make the body fair game for all, including the victim.

*Props on leaving the carebear zerg, permitting you actually "have" ;]

[Jadzia]

Ok, so you only disagree with the disappearing corpse because you want a corpse run ? Thats fine, but explain me that why did you say that losing everything on PvE death would cater to the PvE players...I still don't understand that lol. If there was a corpse run that would cater a bit since they would have the ability to get back their stuffs if they are lucky...but without corpse run ?

And Hopi is a great tribe and I love them :)

[Salvadore]

Ok, so you only disagree with the disappearing corpse because you want a corpse run ? Thats fine, but explain me that why did you say that losing everything on PvE death would cater to the PvE players...I still don't understand that lol. If there was a corpse run that would cater a bit since they would have the ability to get back their stuffs if they are lucky...but without corpse run ?


I thought you described the PvE player's death as an instant destruction of their assets, aka the "1 minute" timeframe you proposed. Thats basically instant imo because it is hard to actually loot someone now before the corpse dissapears. Im stating that I think it would be too "hardcore" to have a pve or accidental death insapwn all items. Too hardcore for the little guy with no massive tribe or established tribe, or the solo player that has to work hard for everything they get.

Yeah, it would obviously boost the economy, but would be more balanced to give someone the choice of trying to get their gear. Corpse runs are also a necessary game mechanic as well. Think of the new players coming in and them learning the ropes. No "bound" items or PO weapons. Im all about being "mean" with no remorse, but I do understand that there needs to be certain allowences of "nice" to keep players interested for more than 15 mins.

Example - I have to go very far from my totem to get sand. I need this for mortar and stone walls. I get pk'd along the way - they probably arent going to loot the sand (hypothetically). I should have the ability to return and get the sand, right? Think of the pvper - they (hypothetically) realize im interested in the sand. They could ambush me as im trying to get back to my corpse and get more pvp. I get pissed. I return, this time, with friends. They plan another ambush - now we have the early makings of tribal warfare!!!

Same exact issue present for pve deaths, accidental deaths. Add in the thread I supplied about cannibalism - mucho depth and content.

Im totally fine with full loot - all time. The harsher you make the penalty, the less likely people will be to risk losing their stuff. Thus, why you see nakeds all the time fisting people to death.

[Jadzia]

I agree that it would too harsh on fresh new players, so perhaps a 24 hours immunity should be given to them. But its the same thing if a very new player logs in, leaves the spawn area, gets killed and looted in the first 5 mins...would you agree with any type of immunity (can be killed but can't be looted) for PvP ?

And apart of new players, seriously, I think no one should be scared of losing pixels for now. The game is so filled with unneeded items, I wouldn't run back for 30 mins to get back my items when I have like 20 of each at home. I'm more concerned about the economy right now.

[mrcalhou]

Lol am I the only one who played a game where death always had the same consequences regardless to the reason of death, as in dropping all of your items when you die ? It gives a great feel of danger, encourages group PvE, and drives the economy. It works very well in a game which only has player crafted items.

I...Have you not read what I wrote? My suggestion is ALSO the same thing for whatever the reason of death is. It just actually removes items from the game before someone else can get them. You were the one that was talking about "If the player is killed by another then the winner gets the losers items but if a bear kills that person then they all just go 'poof' after a minute" (paraphrased).

[Jadzia]

I...Have you not read what I wrote? My suggestion is ALSO the same thing for whatever the reason of death is. It just actually removes items from the game before someone else can get them. You were the one that was talking about "If the player is killed by another then the winner gets the losers items but if a bear kills that person then they all just go 'poof' after a minute" (paraphrased).

But you said we should don't everything on PvE death, only some (3-4) items. Seeing that we have 28 spots on our character not to mention the stuffs stored in backpack that seems a very low amount for me.

[mrcalhou]

But you said we should don't everything on PvE death, only some (3-4) items. Seeing that we have 28 spots on our character not to mention the stuffs stored in backpack that seems a very low amount for me.

It's called an example, but regardless, I'm not for 100% item destruction upon death. Never have been. It doesn't need to be a large amount per person. The important thing is that it's the same regardless of whether you die in PvE or PvP. Chances are if you are killed in PvP then the person that killed you is going to loot your corpse. They're still going to get a prize. If you die in PvE and someone loots your corpse then they'll get a nice little exploration trophy, but if you get it then you're going to be a bit behind--it's a good reminder to try not to die next time.

Wait... I think I see what you keep doing with my posts. You seem to be assuming that if you die in PvE that you WILL get your stuff back and if you die in PvP you won't get anything back. That's not the case because it relies on variables that can't be controlled. A PvPer very well might just leave your items on the corpse or some random person might come along and loot you before you get back even if you die because of racoon. You cannot count on all PvE deaths having the result of being able to go back to your corpse. Nor can you count on people always taking your stuff after they kill you in PvP.

What I'm saying is that BEFORE a thinking person makes the decision to loot you or not, that some items get destroyed.