Macro Philosophy

[Belight]

**Disclaimer: This post is not in anyway a flame for Xsyon. Just a discussion in general. I probably posted it in the wrong forum, to be honest.**

The problem does not lie with players who macro. Players will always macro. Even legit players. Humans will always take the easiest route with the biggest reward. It's a fact of nature.

Poor game design is the problem. Expecting people to follow the honor system is a pipe dream.

Don't want people to macro fishing?
Make a randomly timed "bite" that you must click to catch the fish.

Don't want people to afk swim/run?
Make the skill gain based not on the run animation but how far (Distance) you actually move.

Don't want people to macro combat skills?
Utilize proper skill caps, skill decay and systems that only allows for so many skill gains of one type in an aloted time frame.

There are hundreds of solutions if you just think and stop pointing fingers at the "bad guys". Which solves nothing and results in band-aid, time wasting, fixes like dev enforced punishment.

People only macro if the game design promotes and allows it. These are day one drawingboard issues. I just can't understand how these glaring flaws make it into game after game after game.

Discuss...


P.S. The same base philosophy also applys to griefing and to a lesser degree, exploiting.

[jumpshot]

OR you could make a game where, even if you macro, you don't get that much advantage.

And you could add things like hunger, thirst, and stat decay. You could make it so having a macro'd character doesn't make that much difference.



Your ideas are actually good, I just already don't see the problem.

Okay I see the problem - it's that people are still hung up on macros from Darkfall.

[ColonelTEE3]

The problem does not lie with players who macro. Players will always macro. Even legit players. Humans will always take the easiest route with the biggest reward. It's a fact of nature.

Poor game design is the problem. Expecting people to follow the honor system is a pipe dream.

Don't want people to macro fishing?
Make a randomly timed "bite" that you must click to catch the fish.

Don't want people to afk swim/run?
Make the skill gain based not on the run animation but how far (Distance) you actually move.

Don't want people to macro combat skills?
Utilize proper skill caps, skill decay and systems that only allows for so many skill gains of one type in an aloted time frame.

There are hundreds of solutions if you just think and stop pointing fingers at the "bad guys".

People only macro if the game design promotes and allows it. These are all day one drawingboard fixes. I just can't understand how these glaring flaws make it into game after game after game.

Discuss...


P.S. The same base philosophy also applys to griefing and to a lesser degree, exploiting.

I agree the problem is not in the players but in game design. Where i stray from your examples is less focused on solutions of treating the symptoms of the problem (like having to be attentive to an already monotonous fishing process due to macro-interrupters), and more focused on treating the problem itself (eliminating the need to macro in the first place). I've heard a few of the guys in Anvil say this a few times now and its gotten into my head now; if people are macroing, its because there is a grind to be grinded(ground?). Take away the grind and let people max out or cap out on skills within a few days and suddenly macroing will disappear because it no longer is giving competitive players the edge they're looking for. You touched on this with your example of skill caps and skill decay.

As long as we're allowed free reign to work up as many skills as we want with no repercussions, and as long as those skills take a fair amount of time to grind and give us (the player population) any advantage whatsoever, there shall be macroing.

[jumpshot]

if people are macroing, its because there is a grind to be grinded(ground?). Take away the grind and let people max out or cap out on skills within a few days and suddenly macroing will disappear because it no longer is giving competitive players the edge they're looking for.

This sounds wierd, and I refused to admit it to myself for a while... but I like grinding. I like to watch the little numbers get bigger. Also, I'm not the only one.

If I didn't want my character to progress (or wanted it to be superfast), I'd play a game without character progression. There's plenty of them.

[Belight]

I can agree with both your points, however you have to be careful not to remove character progression. Without "some" grind then we might as well all start maxed.

I think there is a middle ground, however.

Really I think the problem is when it starts to "feel" like a grind. Devs need to get more creative in building their basic system so that it promotes progression yet delivers it in a behind-the-scenes way that the player wont even notice enough to make them use macros. Then you can couple that with systems that don't allow for macroing and the fact that a fully developed character wont greatly over power a new character, it simply opens up more options for vets.

For instance a vet character shouldn't exactly do more damage than a noob, but they should have more styles and abilities and utility to survive in the world. It's incentive to progress, but it's not creating a power gap. I liked MOs philosophy that combat skills progress quickly (So you are PVP viable without grind), and the real "grind" comes in the form of being the best crafter, unlocking recipies or clothing options, character education, and honing a trade or making your niche in the world.

I like to think about it like this, if I punch you and a UFC fighter punches you. We'll both probably knock you out, but the UFC guy is going to look much better doing it, be less fatigued, and also know different styles of punches and probably hurt his hand less. However, the end result is fairly similar.



Also I think devs need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to resource harvesting.

I have alot of ideas about crafting too, but they are too scattered and vast to post here.

[Belight]

QUIT WASTING YOUR TIME POSTING AND MOVE ONTO MY TOTEM BELIGHT! You can macro there all you want, promise.

I haven't even logged into the game. Been waiting for some improvements and the "launch dust" to settle. I do intend to jump in your teamspeak sometime soon though.

[jumpshot]

For instance a vet character shouldn't exactly do more damage than a noob, but they should have more styles and abilities and utility to survive in the world. It's incentive to progress, but it's not creating a power gap.

I actually think you're on to something here. I like it!

Despite what anyone may say about the rest of it, DCUO had some good ideas. First, if you were actually skilled and understood the combat you could win a 1v1 vs ANYONE, regardless of level. Second, they had a FUCKING TON of clothes/looks/accessories. Some were easy to get, some were hard to get. Even if you don't like playing dressup (and quit lying - you do) some of these items had status attached to them because of their difficulty to acquire. Whatever, my point is... ya... there can be stuff to grind out that doens't equate to 1 shotting enemies and making combat unbalanced.

Although along those lines, I'm still not convinced that having a "maxed out toon" is even that much of an advantage in Xsion. 15 points of Agility seems to make a ton more difference than 100 points of running or swimming.

[Belight]

I actually think you're on to something here. I like it!

Despite what anyone may say about the rest of it, DCUO had some good ideas. First, if you were actually skilled and understood the combat you could win a 1v1 vs ANYONE, regardless of level. Second, they had a FUCKING TON of clothes/looks/accessories. Some were easy to get, some were hard to get. Even if you don't like playing dressup (and quit lying - you do) some of these items had status attached to them because of their difficulty to acquire. Whatever, my point is... ya... there can be stuff to grind out that doens't equate to 1 shotting enemies and making combat unbalanced.

Although along those lines, I'm still not convinced that having a "maxed out toon" is even that much of an advantage in Xsion. 15 points of Agility seems to make a ton more difference than 100 points of running or swimming.

I too was fairly impressed with DCUO in that regard. I won 1v1s against people up to 15 lvls higher than me. It's due to their combat system that heavly penalises the button masher. However it's extreme lack of RPG elements made me lose interest very quickly, but that's a debate for another thread.

[Mizzlexx]

Or you could actually try playing a game. I've never macroed i dont pay for a game so my computer can play it for me i pay for it to enjoy my time and relax at the end of the day. Honestly if ur gonna let a macro program play the game for you and spend a few hours writing a script so you can be lazy then just make it easier for everyone and go play an easy game like WoW or rift. Of course theres really no point in me arguing because there will always be macroers. I do blame the players not the game because you could just play the game you dont have to macro and its sad that the game is even thought to be blame on this matter it is the players decision. IMO ban them devs take their 40$ contribution and after you ban them post in on the forums as a warning put some fear into players eyes the more you catch the less there will be, but then again there will still be tht group of players that try to.

[Belight]

IMO ban them devs take their 40$ contribution and after you ban them post in on the forums as a warning put some fear into players eyes the more you catch the less there will be, but then again there will still be tht group of players that try to.

Yeah, that's exactly why people play games, to have "fear put into their eyes". Geeeeze. Your mentality is the same one that has America wasting billions to imprisioning it's population. You're offering band-aid solutions that are resource and labor intensive and at the end of the day solve nothing. In my opinion fear is not an acceptable solution to any issue.

Look at the root of the problem, and please try to remember.... It's a game. No one should ever be punished for playing a game. You sound like a fucking Nazi, dude.

Just becasue you don't think macroing is "playing the game" doesn't mean that others don't. Macros aren't magic. Some people enjoy writing the scripts and tweaking them and seeing the fruit of that labor. That's a game to them, and that's fine. I'm against macroing, yes, but I'm not going to condem those people as "bad guys who deserve punishment or deserve to lose their money". I'm going to instead, look at the root of the issue and come up with creative and effective solutions.

And for the record, I've never macroed... Not even in my time in DarkFall.

[psyrox2k]

Progress Quest google it =O

[Surly]

I love macroing, it's my favorite thing to do in Xsyon since nothing else works and I do it regularly.

[Belight]

Shirley, your sig fucking kills me. I've watched it for like 5 mins now...

[ColonelTEE3]

Or you could actually try playing a game. I've never macroed i dont pay for a game so my computer can play it for me i pay for it to enjoy my time and relax at the end of the day. Honestly if ur gonna let a macro program play the game for you and spend a few hours writing a script so you can be lazy then just make it easier for everyone and go play an easy game like WoW or rift. Of course theres really no point in me arguing because there will always be macroers. I do blame the players not the game because you could just play the game you dont have to macro and its sad that the game is even thought to be blame on this matter it is the players decision. IMO ban them devs take their 40$ contribution and after you ban them post in on the forums as a warning put some fear into players eyes the more you catch the less there will be, but then again there will still be tht group of players that try to.

Wow. If threads had IQs, this one just dropped to downy level. I'm sure Apache is happy to have you represent their tribe with posts like these. There was a good discussion going on above this post and you add nothing to it with your run on sentences and your blanket-condemnation. No one takes people like you seriously though, so you may as well not have even posted.

On topic; i'm similar to jumpshot in that the grind doesn't bother me. I played darkfall for 2 years and the grind never phased me, and i do enjoy seeing numerical progress. My original idea in this thread was aimed at bridging the gap for those who have no patience for grind. Its true though, there should be a middle ground where some time-investment is required but that middle ground is so ambiguous its very difficult to point to where it should be. If/when skill decay gets turned on, this may be less of an issue.

Also


I love macroing, it's my favorite thing to do in Xsyon since nothing else works and I do it regularly.

This.

[Belight]

You know, I never really minded the grind in DarkFall either. What killed me was the lack of any kind of skill cap. I don't mind it taking tons of time and skill to max out, but it's unacceptable to me that you can max out everything. it creates a one class game with a huge vet to noob power gap. If you could only max out a certain number of skills, it wouldn't matter how long it takes, becasue even the underdevloped can prove viable in their own creative ways and niches.

[Gandhi]

You know, I never really minded the grind in DarkFall either. What killed me was the lack of any kind of skill cap. I don't mind it taking tons of time and skill to max out, but it's unacceptable to me that you can max out everything. it creates a one class game with a huge vet to noob power gap. If you could only max out a certain number of skills, it wouldn't matter how long it takes, becasue even the underdevloped can prove viable in their own creative ways and niches.

In Xsyon you are only able to max out some skills and not everything.

[Belight]

In Xsyon you are only able to max out some skills and not everything.

That's what we are told anyhow. I've yet to notice any kind of decay being active in game and this thread is in responce to a number of other threads about people macroing.

DarkFall also promised skill decay in beta.

[Mizzlexx]

Personally I could careless about a playerbase that mainly consist of macroers so i wouldnt care if people were perma banned for it and it wouldnt put fear into my eyes bc i dont macro if you dont macro then u wouldnt have to worry about it, and i find it funny that u bring up that im an american lol like that has to do with this at all. And i sound like a nazi bc i think cheating should be banned? u sound like a macroer ur self why would u worry if u dont?


Wow. If threads had IQs, this one just dropped to downy level. I'm sure Apache is happy to have you represent their tribe with posts like these. There was a good discussion going on above this post and you add nothing to it with your run on sentences and your blanket-condemnation. No one takes people like you seriously though, so you may as well not have even posted.


LOL its a forum get over yourself
There are several copies of this exact post everyday if I took the time to post in every one of them with correct grammar and proper punctuation I wouldn't be playing the game. If i cared about opinions about every uptight individual such as yourself I would swell up from all the smug in the area. Thanks for the advice I'll defiantely consider it. lol

[Zenmaster13]

The problem does not lie with players who macro. Players will always macro. Even legit players. Humans will always take the easiest route with the biggest reward. It's a fact of nature.

Poor game design is the problem. Expecting people to follow the honor system is a pipe dream.

P.S. The same base philosophy also applys to griefing and to a lesser degree, exploiting.

I disagree with this. I think you generalize too much. I for one, would not be in the "always take the easiest route" crowd. I don't macro in this or any other game, as an example.

The problem with saying that bad programming or development choices is the reason why people macro, is like saying the reason people steal or commit a crime, is because of bad security, or poorly designed store isles, etc. The point being, it doesn't matter how much you try to prevent something, someone will find a way around the normal route.

Another important point to remember: If it is on the computer, it can be automated. It is like this for all software, not just games.

My opinion is that is is a waste of my money to macro. Why would I pay to play a game that I automate most of the time. It is just stupid. I mean it is just a game, nothing permanent, no one will ever remember anything you did in game for long. I guess some people have to stretch for the attention, I don't know.

[Belight]

I disagree with this. I think you generalize too much. I for one, would not be in the "always take the easiest route" crowd. I don't macro in this or any other game, as an example.

The problem with saying that bad programming or development choices is the reason why people macro, is like saying the reason people steal or commit a crime, is because of bad security, or poorly designed store isles, etc. The point being, it doesn't matter how much you try to prevent something, someone will find a way around the normal route.

Another important point to remember: If it is on the computer, it can be automated. It is like this for all software, not just games.

I don't entirely disagree with you in your first point. It's a matter of context. I bet you do take the easiest route in many cases. If Mob A takes 5 seconds to kill and gives 100xp and Mob B takes 10 mins to kill and gives 50xp, what mob are you going to grind your levels on? That would be an example of poor game design that drives a player to take one set path even if it hurts gameplay. If gathering is boring as shit and involves clicking a button for hours on end, why would I not macro?

I think you're taking my over all argument wrong, I never said poor game design was the reason people macro (Tho it does push people to macro in many cases), I said poor game design is the reason people CAN macro. It's something devs need to consider when designing their games. I can think of a thousand ways to stop macroing AND improve features in many cases, adn they all start at the drawing board. So instead of whining about it and employing a police force to punish players, why not just be creative about game design?

My main point in this discussion is the way macroing is handled not why it exists.

Added after 12 minutes:


Personally I could careless about a playerbase that mainly consist of macroers so i wouldnt care if people were perma banned for it and it wouldnt put fear into my eyes bc i dont macro if you dont macro then u wouldnt have to worry about it, and i find it funny that u bring up that im an american lol like that has to do with this at all. And i sound like a nazi bc i think cheating should be banned? u sound like a macroer ur self why would u worry if u dont?

I'm an American, born and raised. I think you sound like a nazi because you'd rather punish people than find creative ways to circumvent a social issue.

So if you're not commiting any crimes then you'd have no problems with me listening to all your phone calls, reading your texts, and looking in your windows?

The argument of "If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" is paper thin and is often utilized by people who hate liberty. Just sayin'.

[ColonelTEE3]

The problem with saying that bad programming or development choices is the reason why people macro, is like saying the reason people steal or commit a crime, is because of bad security, or poorly designed store isles, etc. The point being, it doesn't matter how much you try to prevent something, someone will find a way around the normal route.

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.

[Belight]

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.

That's beautiful! Discussion like this is what I hoped for in this thread. Not to say that others are not doing their part and contributing, but I generally disagree with them! :)

It's interesting to think of crime as innovation in that regard. I would not want to take it too far and actually condone crime, but from an animal perspective it truly is a form of innovation and necessity. It becomes even more true, in my opinion, when you bring it into the realm of MMOs. As you can easily say that macroing, exploiting, or hacking are primarily (outside our little game universe) victimless crimes committed by people who in all other aspects of life, may be completely law abiding and functioning members of society. That is why I am strongly against "punishing" these people. Primarily when the punishment is something happening inside the entertainment industry. "Entertainment" being the key word! Now don't get me wrong, I understand the game companies have a right to defend their property, but again, I think there are more creative solutions available that would be more beneficial to said companies and communities.

[jumpshot]

Well done ColonelEE3. +1 I'm smarter now

[Larsa]

... Players will always macro. Even legit players. Humans will always take the easiest route with the biggest reward. It's a fact of nature. ... Sorry, no, it's not a fact of nature. If it were every player would macro but that's far from reality, only certain players macro, thus it cannot be a fact of nature, unless you claim that players that do not macro arent't human.

Maybe, for you, it's natural to macro but that tells us more about you than about the human race.

[ifireallymust]

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.


Here's a reality check 101 for ya:

At least many criminals are committing crimes for the sake of survival. Even gold farmers are often supporting themselves and their families by wrecking MMOs for everyone else.

But macroers are just cheating so they can run around and one-hit everyone by the end of launch week. Then they get together to giggle with their friends about how OP their macroed up, sad little excuse for a toon is.

[Kinslayer]

Take away the grind and let people max out or cap out on skills within a few days and suddenly macroing will disappear because it no longer is giving competitive players the edge they're looking for. You touched on this with your example of skill caps and skill decay.For the love of God, don't do this. MO tried this, people maxed out their skills in the first week, and left the game by the forth week due to utter boredom. You need the grind to keep you busy and playing, keep you interested. The reward of skill gains are much sweeter when you've earned them.

[Surly]

For the love of God, don't do this. MO tried this, people maxed out their skills in the first week, and left the game by the forth week due to utter boredom. You need the grind to keep you busy and playing, keep you interested. The reward of skill gains are much sweeter when you've earned them.

rofl

i don't want to let the cat out of the bag or anything, but people didn't leave mortal because there wasn't enough grind.

[ColonelTEE3]

Here's a reality check 101 for ya:

At least many criminals are committing crimes for the sake of survival. Even gold farmers are often supporting themselves and their families by wrecking MMOs for everyone else.

But macroers are just cheating so they can run around and one-hit everyone by the end of launch week. Then they get together to giggle with their friends about how OP their macroed up, sad little excuse for a toon is.

Well with a statistic like 'at least many', how could i not think you don't know what you're talking about. It looks like my post just went right over your head, maybe next time sunshine.

[Kinslayer]

rofl

i don't want to let the cat out of the bag or anything, but people didn't leave mortal because there wasn't enough grind.LMAO, too true, but grinding of the gold kind. But there is a game that bred boredom and disappointment, I would hate to see the same happen here. Keep the grind, its not over the top in this game.

I could give a shit if others macro, as long as game mechanics allow personal ability to come into the equation, well, when speaking about combat anyway. With twitch based systems its not all about skill levels, its about personal skill and ability also. If you suck at twitch combat, you suck regardless of how high you macro'd your skills. If you suck that bad that you feel the need to macro your skills, well, poor you. As for crafting, eh, whats the hurry? We'll all have them maxed out sooner or later.

[boomer0901]

That is too, true I've never had to cheat or macro in any game i've played, it's not human nature. Everyone wants to win, just some of us aren't willing to cheat to do it. If I lose a fight because someone else cheats, and that player thinks they are uber leet, super macroed skill lutz, 1337 or whatever you dumbass's say these days. You're really not good at pvp you're good at cheating/working the system, not something I'd be proud of, but whatever keeps your self esteem up I guess. But talent isn't one of them.

[jokhul]

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.

I read an interesting op-ed article in the New York Times a while ago. The author was talking about the latest version of the classic Monopoly boardgame, which is aimed at young children. Apparently it has a built-in anti-cheat microprocessor that regulates the gameplay to eliminate cheating. The author was very concerned about this, because it would give children the idea that cheating is BAD, and would make them subservient law-abiding citizens ! According to him, cheating is creative and challenges the "accepted status quo".

So there you have it, folks ! Combining Robert Merton's ideas and the above author, we can conclude that cheating and criminal behaviour (non-violent, of course) should actually be encouraged and rewarded ! It is the epitome of true entrepreneurial spirit !

It appears that we've all had the wrong idea. Cheating is not bad, it's actually just finding "creative and innovative" ways to achieve our goals !

Next time someone is banned for macroing, shed a silent tear for another "innovator" that has been crushed by the heavy hand of authority...

[ColonelTEE3]

I read an interesting op-ed article in the New York Times a while ago. The author was talking about the latest version of the classic Monopoly boardgame, which is aimed at young children. Apparently it has a built-in anti-cheat microprocessor that regulates the gameplay to eliminate cheating. The author was very concerned about this, because it would give children the idea that cheating is BAD, and would make them subservient law-abiding citizens ! According to him, cheating is creative and challenges the "accepted status quo".

So there you have it, folks ! Combining Robert Merton's ideas and the above author, we can conclude that cheating and criminal behaviour (non-violent, of course) should actually be encouraged and rewarded ! It is the epitome of true entrepreneurial spirit !

It appears that we've all had the wrong idea. Cheating is not bad, it's actually just finding "creative and innovative" ways to achieve our goals !

Next time someone is banned for macroing, shed a silent tear for another "innovator" that has been crushed by the heavy hand of authority...

First of all, i don't believe macroing is interchangeable with "cheating". Second of all, i think the article you bring up is less relevant here. That author was making the remark that cheating shouldn't be considered bad because it may have redeeming intrinsic qualities, and i don't really subscribe to that kind of thinking. Merton never suggested that innovation (economically motivated criminal behavior) should be rewarded, or that it was a good thing. I think you misread me there somewhere. Instead, he's saying that it is an unfortunate result that innovation occurs under certain circumstances due to the system that has facilitated it. No where in reading Robert Merton can you make the conclusion that criminal behavior should be rewarded. It simply doesn't follow.

I am not glad macroing exists in xsyon. However, i do not think those who macro should be condemned for reacting to the circumstances of the system of the game they play. The goals are present and obvious -- competitive edges such as power, ability, deadliness, effectiveness, efficiency -- but the means to doing that legitimately (normal, casual game play fitting into work, school and family schedules) are not adding up. People want to be competitive but can't always match the power games with 8+ hours of gaming a day. This is what happened in Darkfall. This is what is now happening in Xsyon.

Thank you, however, for having a little more to add to the discussion than "ifireallymustsaysomethingevenifitsworthlessIwill"

[xsuman80]

I dont like macro and hate them in DF - becouse they kill almost all good in DF.
I dont want see Xsyon as Macros-game.
There are mentioned some advices how made macroses useless. Simply - just made some minigame on crafting and gathering. Yes it can risk your pvp while you be in mini-game - but it can resolve macrosing.
Now fishing - most boring action in game. You sit in water and need press 1 key long time. Some tell already - made fishing more interesting - look at some MMO projects where you can fishing. I recommended you look at game "Atom Fishing" - there really intresting gameplay - and it cant be macrosed. Or add fish spotes that move every 1-4 minutes - so you need seek them visuality.
Another crafts now is most anti-macro then it be if you not need choose every thing and tool to make 1 piece of item.
Terraform - you can just stand and press all time make road or clear - and you slowly gain this skill. Now terraforming skill really dont matter - and on 25 and on 99 it same effect have.
weapon rising - dont let rise this skills on players. Yes is difficult - but it made more good for game and it stop macroed weapon skills.
As mentioned dont let run, swim, jump rising while you stand in one point.
Sorry for my English. I know it really bad - but I want to good evolve of this game - so this is why I there)

[Redus]

I notice a trend in this thread. People just assume that if people macro there AFK as well or even use them to do things that do it faster. Not everyone who macro's does that. I create macro's to make a game more user friendly and to soften the stress on my wrists. In this game this could mean making a macro that takes a resource from the resource window (So right click using a key on the keyboard instead of the mouse), just one off course or that it selects raise, level low or whatever from the terraforming window. This would simply mean I could play the game only using my keyboard, but would not let me do things faster....

Being behind the computer a lot (Reading news, Programming, gaming, posting, schoolwork, etc) I try to use the keyboard as much as I can (shortcuts and the like). So I do not see anything wrong with such macro's in games. I do dislike it when people use them to automate stuff though, but really not too bothered. I catch up eventually and if they prefer to play there game that way good for them! Why would I care if someone plays a lot and outskills me and kills me or if someone macro's and does the same? My game in no-way changes because of it, beside that fact you might have to fight some more people who are better or are later to cater to market segments on the current market.

I simply accepted the fact that there will always be people who are simply better then me in skills points and actual skill. I will die in PvP and people can craft better items then me. I try to ally or avoid those people who are stronger and trade with those that have better items if I have something to offer.

[ifireallymust]

I know a lot of the macroers are pvpers and want safe zones gone ASAP.

Guess what, cheaters?

No.

Now we'll all need to catch up with you in every possible combat skill before safe zones could possibly be removable.

I'd go so far as to ask other players who don't cheat to come out against the ability to expand into new areas that have no safe zones until everyone who started playing at this past launch and who has put a reasonable number of hours into the game is caught up with the cheaters. Otherwise, the new areas will be overrun by nothing but mega tribes and macro-cheaters, and mega tribes full of macro cheaters.

Ban them, or make sure we all have a chance to catch up before their cheating gives them a real edge, please.

I prefer banning, myself. Wish it were up to me.

[outfctrl]

OR you could make a game where, even if you macro, you don't get that much advantage.

And you could add things like hunger, thirst, and stat decay. You could make it so having a macro'd character doesn't make that much difference.



Your ideas are actually good, I just already don't see the problem.

Okay I see the problem - it's that people are still hung up on macros from Darkfall.

Actually, you can macro all of those using a timer for food and drink.

[Zenmaster13]

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.

Well, it seems that "dead wrong" would be a bit strong, considering you are actually supporting my argument. Now just to clear things up for you, because your smugness is quite apparent. I have also read many 101 books, but i keep proceeding beyond the novice work. In fact, I also add my own work and reasoning to whatever I learn. I will not quote someone else, and act as if it was my idea. Then, proceed to act as if I have won. This is one of the problems of education, to much inside the book, not enough outside. This however is off topic.

On topic: I thought about it last night. Here is a question for any macroer. If an "I Win" button was added to a game, and when you pressed it, you recieved every item, every skill maxed, as many PVP wins as you wanted, zero losses, every craft skill maxed, every meta-game topped, etc. would you press it?

[bruisie159]

There was an interesting thread just removed from the forum after being up for just about 5 mins. It was a screenshot of a convo between a player and guide. The player reported a guy for macro ing scav. Unfortunately although the poster anonymised the macroers name he left the guides in.

This should be ok though as im mentioning no names. Basically the guide acknowledged the incident was happening and came for a look. He then said "he knew the guy" and would not report him this time. He did teleport him away from the scrap pile though. Now, imo thats not good enough. Especially if your reason for not taking action is having some kind of links with the "offender".

Not setting a good example as far as preventing a macro fest imo

[Jadzia]

I know a lot of the macroers are pvpers and want safe zones gone ASAP.

Guess what, cheaters?

No.

Now we'll all need to catch up with you in every possible combat skill before safe zones could possibly be removable.

I'd go so far as to ask other players who don't cheat to come out against the ability to expand into new areas that have no safe zones until everyone who started playing at this past launch and who has put a reasonable number of hours into the game is caught up with the cheaters. Otherwise, the new areas will be overrun by nothing but mega tribes and macro-cheaters, and mega tribes full of macro cheaters.

Ban them, or make sure we all have a chance to catch up before their cheating gives them a real edge, please.

I prefer banning, myself. Wish it were up to me.

I agree, and wish it was up to you !

[Dontaze_Mebro]

There was an interesting thread just removed from the forum after being up for just about 5 mins. It was a screenshot of a convo between a player and guide. The player reported a guy for macro ing scav. Unfortunately although the poster anonymised the macroers name he left the guides in.

This should be ok though as im mentioning no names. Basically the guide acknowledged the incident was happening and came for a look. He then said "he knew the guy" and would not report him this time. He did teleport him away from the scrap pile though. Now, imo thats not good enough. Especially if your reason for not taking action is having some kind of links with the "offender".

Not setting a good example as far as preventing a macro fest imo

Wow... That just took my hopes for this game down another notch.

This didn't happen to be in zone 941 did it?

[Saolite]

There was an interesting thread just removed from the forum after being up for just about 5 mins. It was a screenshot of a convo between a player and guide. The player reported a guy for macro ing scav. Unfortunately although the poster anonymised the macroers name he left the guides in.

This should be ok though as im mentioning no names. Basically the guide acknowledged the incident was happening and came for a look. He then said "he knew the guy" and would not report him this time. He did teleport him away from the scrap pile though. Now, imo thats not good enough. Especially if your reason for not taking action is having some kind of links with the "offender".

Not setting a good example as far as preventing a macro fest imo

Yeah, I saw it for the brief few minutes it was up. My jaw was hanging a little. I sat there trying to think of what to post that wouldn't get me banned from the forums. Macroing is a big, big issue. Especially in games where it can give you a ridiculous advantage over another player.

This is one of those things that everyone whose caught doing it, just needs to be banned ( after prooven ).

[Dontaze_Mebro]

PM me the Guides name so I can get on his good side as well. I want to be able to cheat.

[sudo]

Yeah, I saw it for the brief few minutes it was up. My jaw was hanging a little. I sat there trying to think of what to post that wouldn't get me banned from the forums.

Thas was my post and even though it got deleted VERY fast and I even got a warning from the GM who deleted it, saying that I will probably get a perma-ban next time, he later told me over IRC that I'm not even allowed to discuss this issue even without mentioning the Guides name...
Let me remind you, though, that Xsyon forums aren't the only mmorpg forums on the internet and I couldn't let such a pretty picture stay uploaded on imageshack with no use...

And bruisie159, thank you for the support.

[Jadzia]

Thas was my post and even though it got deleted VERY fast and I even got a warning from the GM who deleted it, saying that I will probably get a perma-ban next time, he later told me over IRC that I'm not even allowed to discuss this issue even without mentioning the Guides name...
Let me remind you, though, that Xsyon forums aren't the only mmorpg forums on the internet and I couldn't let such a pretty picture stay uploaded on imageshack with no use...

And bruisie159, thank you for the support.

Well done, sudo, the forum rules shouldn't protect cheaters. Already found that pretty picture :P

Respect to the player who reported the macroer though he was his tribemate. Thats the spirit we all need.

[Surly]

LMAO, too true, but grinding of the gold kind. But there is a game that bred boredom and disappointment, I would hate to see the same happen here. Keep the grind, its not over the top in this game.

I could give a shit if others macro, as long as game mechanics allow personal ability to come into the equation, well, when speaking about combat anyway. With twitch based systems its not all about skill levels, its about personal skill and ability also. If you suck at twitch combat, you suck regardless of how high you macro'd your skills. If you suck that bad that you feel the need to macro your skills, well, poor you. As for crafting, eh, whats the hurry? We'll all have them maxed out sooner or later.
I don't like the idea of giving people "busy work" to keep them "interested." I see where you're coming from, but the game's features should be enough to keep people entertained without grind. That's an eventuality, though, not the present state of the game... so getting rid of the grind isn't that big of a deal to me currently. I'd like to see it phased out as more stuff is enabled, though.

If this game ever gets to a "feature complete" point, it won't need an ounce of grind.

[HyBrasil]

I have only seen 1 game server really enforce rules like macro'ing, botting, radar, and other exploits and 3rd party program shortcuts effectively, and it is an unofficial Freeshard for a game that operates on donations. Frankly, it is the best server for a game I have ever played on. It is run by people who love the game, not people punching a time clock.

Maybe the business model for MMORPGS should go to a donation based system. I guarantee that the server admins would run things a bit tighter to reduce costs. Big corporate games always have macroers, botters, "goldfarmers", and other such behavior in general running rampant throughout them. I hope Xsyon will not be one of them.

[ColonelTEE3]

Well, it seems that "dead wrong" would be a bit strong, considering you are actually supporting my argument. Now just to clear things up for you, because your smugness is quite apparent. I have also read many 101 books, but i keep proceeding beyond the novice work. In fact, I also add my own work and reasoning to whatever I learn. I will not quote someone else, and act as if it was my idea. Then, proceed to act as if I have won. This is one of the problems of education, to much inside the book, not enough outside. This however is off topic.

On topic: I thought about it last night. Here is a question for any macroer. If an "I Win" button was added to a game, and when you pressed it, you recieved every item, every skill maxed, as many PVP wins as you wanted, zero losses, every craft skill maxed, every meta-game topped, etc. would you press it?

I never supported your argument. I invalidated it.

This is your original argument i was replying to:



The problem with saying that bad programming or development choices is the reason why people macro, is like saying the reason people steal or commit a crime, is because of bad security, or poorly designed store isles, etc. The point being, it doesn't matter how much you try to prevent something, someone will find a way around the normal route.

You are saying here that there is a false analogy being made; that the game was made in such a way that it has caused people to macro is like saying (I have to assume you meant economically based) crime is the result of the failure to stop it or hinder it with better isles and better security. Therefore, you claim, crime/macroing will always occur because "someone will find a way around the normal route".

I never in my post supported this argument. I feel like a broken record because i have to keep restating this and you can't just read it again: economic crimes such as property crimes, arson, or theft are occurring because (irl) people have been put into circumstances where they can't access the wide-spread accepted goals of a culture (monetary wealth irl) because there simply is a lack of opportunities to them. This is best illustrated by the inner-city urban poor districts; the only jobs available that will ultimately lead to the acquiring of these cultural goals (wealth) are office jobs and professions that are demanding of high technical skill. The impoverished families that live there, however, lack the education and resources to be able to fulfill these jobs. For them, their options are either a low-skill job like Mcdonalds that will pay hardly anything, or crimes like selling drugs or burglary, which can be extremely lucrative.

Likewise, people who don't have the time to commit to a game like some others, due to responsibilities as a parent, or a spouse, or as someone employed 40-50 hours a week, or in the middle of schooling, still want to be competitive because that is a very highly sought after cultural goal in the gaming community, especially the pvp community. They can either play maybe an hour or two a day, infrequently throughout the week, and fall behind. Or they can respond to a game system that rewards people with a lot of time to spend on skilling up, and macro to catch up and remain competitive.

Also, i know you must be intimidated by anyone with more than a high school diploma, so i'm not surprised i come off as smug just for bringing some solid arguments in for discussion. I've never said Merton's theory was my own -- i did however adapt it and compare it to the game in light of the thread topic. If you don't see the difference then maybe you should just stop before you embarrass yourself some more. You talk a lot about all the reading, and all the work and reasoning you do. I've reasoned through what i've learned and applied it here with my own thoughts on some research i've read. I haven't seen you do anything here except claim "yeah well im better but im not going to say how or why."

Your "on topic" idea doesn't fit here. Its really sad that there is such a big misconception that all macroers want is for scripts to play and win the game for them.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Thas was my post and even though it got deleted VERY fast and I even got a warning from the GM who deleted it, saying that I will probably get a perma-ban next time, he later told me over IRC that I'm not even allowed to discuss this issue even without mentioning the Guides name...
Let me remind you, though, that Xsyon forums aren't the only mmorpg forums on the internet and I couldn't let such a pretty picture stay uploaded on imageshack with no use...

And bruisie159, thank you for the support.

Well if that's how they are running things maybe I shouldn't even bother to wait until the free time is up. If they are going to do things like this I am NOT going be playing, and I will do my best to make sure people know about this sort of stuff. Corrupt GM's are the quickest way to lose my business. PM that screenshot if you don't mind.

[Jadzia]

Well if that's how they are running things maybe I shouldn't even bother to wait until the free time is up. If they are going to do things like this I am NOT going be playing, and I will do my best to make sure people know about this sort of stuff. Corrupt GM's are the quickest way to lose my business. PM that screenshot if you don't mind.

Check it on mmorpg.com. And I agree with you, if that is the policy about macroers why should we play at all ?

[sudo]

Big corporate games always have macroers, botters, "goldfarmers", and other such behavior in general running rampant throughout them. I hope Xsyon will not be one of them.

So do I, HyBrasil. While big companies do have goldfarmers and botters, the biggest of those companies usually manage to fight those quite well. I haven't played wow or lotro for quite some time but when I did, I've only seen goldsellers and all they do is spam, they don't go into battlegrounds with macroed maxed stats that would take a non-cheating player a whole year to get.

My solution is to change all the game mechanics that are macro-friendly to non-macro friendly ones. Take any major mmorpg fishing and compare it to Xsyons, for example...

[niccoli00]

Hi, I want to raise my hide skill. So I put it on 6, watch me play the game:

6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 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Yay a skill up!

Yeah, that's fun.

[bruisie159]

Thas was my post and even though it got deleted VERY fast and I even got a warning from the GM who deleted it, saying that I will probably get a perma-ban next time, he later told me over IRC that I'm not even allowed to discuss this issue even without mentioning the Guides name...
Let me remind you, though, that Xsyon forums aren't the only mmorpg forums on the internet and I couldn't let such a pretty picture stay uploaded on imageshack with no use...

And bruisie159, thank you for the support.

No probs, I can kind of understand them taking it down cos it had the guides name in and until they verify it or whatever it's kind of fair enough. With no names is a different matter and up for discussion. If they did tell you it's not to be discussed at all then that's wrong too.

Tbh if it was macro hiding or auto run I may have felt the punishment was fitting for a first offence but macro scav is a "proper" macro I feel and rules should definately be enforced properly. It makes you wonder what else people get away with.

[joexxxz]

The freaking microsoft and the hardware manufacturers need to redesign their systems, so it wont be possible to macro in the game. Best solution.

[Jollepoker]

The freaking microsoft and the hardware manufacturers need to redesign their systems, so it wont be possible to macro in the game. Best solution.

I have a feeling you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Do you even know what a macro is?

[sudo]

I have a feeling you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Do you even know what a macro is?

Do you know what sarcasm is?

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Let's just face the facts and do away with computer gaming altogether. They can't seem to get anything right anymore, and the entire industry is in the crapper. Consoles have won... at least I won't have to read all these stupid forums anymore.

[Jollepoker]

Do you know what sarcasm is?

Do you know what playing along means? It does not have to stop at one post you know, that's how jokes are formed.

[orious13]

What dawntide does to prevent macroing is to add a learning cap...

You can learn X amount of stuff in X skill until you have to rest or do something else. If you keep doing the skill you won't get any levels from it. I don't know how long you have to rest or how much experience you get until you've capped it, but that's a pretty easy solution. All the devs have to do is say (character has XX% of the xp bar filled... when it get to XXX%, stop skill gain for XXXX seconds (a debuff)). Sitting or laying down makes the time go faster...

Remember how in Morrowind you had to rest to gain levels?

Decay can also help deter macroing or make it pretty much, unimportant...

But since the TOS is against macroing (I think?), it is against the rules of the game.

To the other thing...What SHOULD have happened is "I'm giving him a warning this time."

[Jadzia]

If a player is caught macroing (and its proven) they should roll all of his skills back to 5, even the starting skill. Then add his name to a list, and check those accounts daily to see if they keep doing it. Caught again, rollback again. After 3 times he should be perma banned.

[Brutix]

they should just make mechanics that make macroing useless or embrace macroing. Sometimes I wonder if people who make mmo's have actually played them, same old crap with every game

[niccoli00]

But macroers are just cheating so they can run around and one-hit everyone by the end of launch week. Then they get together to giggle with their friends about how OP their macroed up, sad little excuse for a toon is.

Have you been "one hit". Seriously, how could you tell anyway. Pre-order axes will 2 shot you, if you have 90 vitality.

This has NOTHING to do with skill level. Combat is completely fucking shit right now, so everytime you state that "OMG advantages in combat", you sound clueless. There are no skill advantages to be had right now. The only thing that actually gains you anything of value right now are trade skills, and those are easy enough to do and don't really beg for macros. The interface is shitty and it's boring as hell, but it's not hard.

Anyone who is dumping points into any of the combat skills right now is taking a huge gamble that the skills will mean anything or even exist when they rework combat.

[Brilliant]

Which is the better option in terms of game design:

1) Xsyon updating it's crafting UI to be appropriate and useful, such as remembering your preferred tools and materials, and allowing you to input the number of bricks you are attempting to craft?

- OR -

2) Continuously banning players over and over for chaining the incredibly tedious process of individually re-selecting the tools and ingredients for thousands of bricks?

There are many, many things game developers can do to make macroing obsolete, and which also serve to make the game better at the same time. I would rather the Xsyon devs devote their time and resources to solutions like option #1, rather than to damage control like option #2.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Which is the better option in terms of game design:

1) Xsyon updating it's crafting UI to be appropriate and useful? (For example, remembering your preferred tools and materials, and allowing you to input the number of identical final goods you are attempting to craft.)

- OR -

2) Banning macroers for automating the incredibly tedious process of individually re-selecting the tools and ingredients for thousands of bricks?

There are many things devs can do to make macroing obsolete, and which also make the game better at the same time. I would rather they devote their time and resources to solutions like option #1, than damage control like option #2.

Or-
They do both because the people who would issue the bans aren't the people writing the code.

[Jadzia]

Which is the better option in terms of game design:

1) Xsyon updating it's crafting UI to be appropriate and useful? (For example, remembering your preferred tools and materials, and allowing you to input the number of bricks you are attempting to craft.)

- OR -

2) Continuously banning macroers over and over for automating the incredibly tedious process of individually re-selecting the tools and ingredients for thousands of bricks?

There are many things game developers can do to make macroing obsolete, and which also make the game better at the same time. I would rather the Xsyon devs devote their time and resources to solutions like option #1, rather than to damage control like option #2.

The problem is not the attended keyboard macros which only helps to keep your wrist healthy....its the unattended macroing, when players run macros/bots all day and night to train running/jumping/fishing/terraforming/hiding to gain levels and skill points.

[niccoli00]

The problem is not the attended keyboard macros which only helps to keep your wrist healthy....its the unattended macroing, when players run macros/bots all day and night to train running/jumping/fishing/terraforming/hiding to gain levels and skill points.

Running, Jumping and Hiding do NOT gain skill points/levels.

Fishing and Terraforming do. Honestly the level system is a bad idea IMO, but what'cha gonna do.

[ifireallymust]

Now we know there are gathering bots, too. Nothing is going to make not sitting at the keyboard easier than sitting at the keyboard while you gather. Cheating players are gaining skill points, they're gathering, and I'm sure someone has figured out how to macro crafting, too. If I was a cheater and too lazy to figure out how to set up macros for myself, I know I could still bribe my teenager to set it up for me, so it's not even really about being smarter than other players. It's just cheating.

Letting a cheater get away with cheating is like praising a puppy for pissing on your carpet. You're going to get exactly the behavior no sane person would want.

[Jollepoker]

The problem is not the attended keyboard macros which only helps to keep your wrist healthy....its the unattended macroing, when players run macros/bots all day and night to train running/jumping/fishing/terraforming/hiding to gain levels and skill points.

Technically you could make a macro doing bricks overnight as well.

Just sayin'

[Dontaze_Mebro]

Now we know there are gathering bots, too. Nothing is going to make not sitting at the keyboard easier than sitting at the keyboard while you gather. Cheating players are gaining skill points, they're gathering, and I'm sure someone has figured out how to macro crafting, too. If I was a cheater and too lazy to figure out how to set up macros for myself, I know I could still bribe my teenager to set it up for me, so it's not even really about being smarter than other players. It's just cheating.

Letting a cheater get away with cheating is like praising a puppy for pissing on your carpet. You're going to get exactly the behavior no sane person would want.

This puppy has a deadline and better whip it's little ass into shape, or it's gonna get put in a burlap bag and tossed in the river come subscription time. It's a good puppy just not the brightest puppy. I don't want to throw it in the river, but I will without shedding a tear.

[ifireallymust]

This puppy has a deadline and better whip it's little ass into shape, or it's gonna get put in a burlap bag and tossed in the river come subscription time. It's a good puppy just not the brightest puppy. I don't want to throw it in the river, but I will without shedding a tear.

I can't stop laughing now. I didn't even consider the puppy analogy in light of game issues and Xsyon devs.

But poor puppy, I'm seriously starting to wonder if there's not some insider sabotage going on somewhere, especially given the bug report I just read about character mixups that makes my missing character issue look like a little oopsie in comparison. And the timing of some of this stuff is just so bizarre.

[warmslumbers13]

Agreed, Corrupt GMs kill games faster than no GMs.

[d3m0nd0]

The GM's a infact Super Secret Stealthy Trolls? Hmm Interesting Conspiracy theory but it would explain alot. Maybe theres something to wearing tinfoil hats and keeping lookout for aliens!

As for macro's ruining this game? It doesnt give the user any real advantage, specially in a big tribe where alteast 2-3 people have the skills to craft whatever ur after anyway....
And PvP it has no effect, infact the biggest factors in PvP seem to be, Uber fast blade weps, or Preorder axe to the balls, or just the size of ur char. The rest is fictional gravy.

[Dontaze_Mebro]

I like apples