Hiding

[Surly]

Besides the whole philosophy behind Xsyon, there hasn't been much for me to praise. Lately I've been pretty discouraged about the whole ordeal because it's a broken, buggy pile of expletives. So I thinks to myself, I thinks "Hey, why don't I think about something good in this game?"

Well, personally, I hate hiding and stealth in MMOs. It's stupid most of the time because you just "go invisible" and need to be detected before you can take damage. So goofy, so obnoxious, and so utterly impossible to balance in a real PvP setting.

But this game's stealth (hiding) just plain kicks ass. The only other game that had cool stealth, that I can recall, was Planetside... and Xsyon has that beat. With high hiding, you pretty much turn into a Predator. It's so cool. You're not invisible, but you make no noise and are extremely difficult to spot. With personal skill, aided by the hiding skill, it's easy to sneak up right on top of people using shadows to your advantage.

Anyway, I'm impressed. Just thought I'd point out the one bitchin' feature of Xsyon I've found so far, and at least have something to congratulate that Jordi fellow for amid all the ridiculous problems the game's got goin' on.

[jumpshot]

+1 good post.

I personally hate the hide skill, conceptually, but this post makes me think I should open my mind about it.

[Surly]

+1 good post.

I personally hate the hide skill, conceptually, but this post makes me think I should open my mind about it.

It's unique, so I suppose there's going to be a lot of conflicting opinions about it. For instance, hiding is probably the thing that annoys me the most out of every feature in practically every MMO. I despise it, really. But I love it in Xsyon, so that's a fairly substantial statement. I'm still not making a stealth character, and never have, because the whole playstyle of stealth pisses me off so damn much... but nonetheless, this is a hide skill I love to see in practice. You have to suspend disbelief for it far less than the "lol invisibility" shit most games do, and frankly it's pretty cool to see a group of Predators stalking around the woods even if it doesn't fit the whole "realism" thing.

[Hanover]

That's assuming your prey has shadows enabled. :p

[Surly]

That's assuming your prey has shadows enabled. :p
pfft, sure sure. if you walk through the center of shadows you're basically invisible, but otherwise shadows are really a liability for sneaking since you occlude them (in true predator fashion) and get your ass seen. so if they have shadows off, it's probably better in the majority of situations. plus, spotting a hider's shadow is like the only way to reliably track him.

[Niburu]

I would really like it if not everyone could use it...

[Surly]

I would really like it if not everyone could use it...
What kind of restriction are you looking for? Dexterity-based skill cap or something?

[jumpshot]

hiding is probably the thing that annoys me the most out of every feature in practically every MMO.

Ya I agree 100% and this is what got me on board with your original post, so then when you said you like it I was like whoa... maybe I shoudl rethink this. Although I thought it was lolinvisible at high level?

[Surly]

Ya I agree 100% and this is what got me on board with your original post, so then when you said you like it I was like whoa... maybe I shoudl rethink this. Although I thought it was lolinvisible at high level?

I have 10 perception, and my friends with 100 hiding aren't "lol invisible" to me. They're damn hard to see for me, but if you're actually paying a lot of attention you'll see them. If you're not, well, they're visible but you won't notice them at all. I can spot their shadows, I can see them when they walk in front of something that reflects light (because the light distorts around their opaque models), and I can see when their model occludes and "object" like tents, walls, etcetera. I can also see them when I'm looking right at them in the open, but just baaarely.

[orious13]

I have 10 perception, and my friends with 100 hiding aren't "lol invisible" to me. They're damn hard to see for me, but if you're actually paying a lot of attention you'll see them. If you're not, well, they're visible but you won't notice them at all. I can spot their shadows, I can see them when they walk in front of something that reflects light (because the light distorts around their opaque models), and I can see when their model occludes and "object" like tents, walls, etcetera. I can also see them when I'm looking right at them in the open, but just baaarely.

this is VERY good news...

Maybe they changed it since beta. People had said during beta that hide at 100 was 100% gone, but the partial occlusion is always the better idea than the *ninja vanish* type.

If they added the effect of colors on clothes or clothe type/armor type to the mix that would be interesting as well.

[Niburu]

I'am hoping for a well made character system were a specialized crafter can't be a good fighter and the other way around. Also crafters and fighters shouldn't be able to find the best items ( maxxed scavanging) . I want player rolls were everyone can play what he likes most.

Hiding falls under combat for me and should restrict you from crafting and gathering once it is high

[Surly]

I don't know, I didn't get any crafting skills and I feel pretty "craft gimped." I tried to scavenge, but with 5 skill and 10 perception I actually grinded the scav skill up to 15 without uncovering a single fucking item.

I'm with you though, it should be that way... or even worse. Specialization leads to diversity, which leads to importance for those specialized characters. Well, provided that what they "do" is useful. No one should be able to max everything out and be totally self-sufficient. I'm all for the solo player, but soloers who want to be jacks of all trades should be just that: Jacks(hit)

[Niburu]

I don't know, I didn't get any crafting skills and I feel pretty "craft gimped." I tried to scavenge, but with 5 skill and 10 perception I actually grinded the scav skill up to 15 without uncovering a single fucking item.

I'm with you though, it should be that way... or even worse. Specialization leads to diversity, which leads to importance for those specialized characters. Well, provided that what they "do" is useful. No one should be able to max everything out and be totally self-sufficient. I'm all for the solo player, but soloers who want to be jacks of all trades should be just that: Jacks(hit)

scavangign becomes useful at 60+


And exactly ofc it should be possible to do everything but then you have to accept it that you only have 30 skill in everything

[jumpshot]

I have 10 perception, and my friends with 100 hiding aren't "lol invisible" to me. They're damn hard to see for me, but if you're actually paying a lot of attention you'll see them. If you're not, well, they're visible but you won't notice them at all. I can spot their shadows, I can see them when they walk in front of something that reflects light (because the light distorts around their opaque models), and I can see when their model occludes and "object" like tents, walls, etcetera. I can also see them when I'm looking right at them in the open, but just baaarely.

Sweet, very good to hear.

You may of converted me.

[Plague]

I have 70 perception and people with 100 hiding are just a little bit blurier then when they are not hiding. From my pesrepctive there is no point in hiding skill as I can spot any hiders from miles away.

Maybe you should not have rolled with 10 perception and then glorified a skill that in current form is crap?

Oh and people with 100 hiding skill... lol. All that effort just to be able to sneak up on people with 10 perception and only if they are not looking hard? LOL!

[Niburu]

I doubt anyone has 100 hiding. I spend 3h perma clicking and gained 1 point from 37-38

[ifireallymust]

I doubt anyone has 100 hiding. I spend 3h perma clicking and gained 1 point from 37-38

The OP already admitted to macroing. I think he said his friends all do it, too. If he's telling the truth, I'm sure he does have hiding maxed. I'm sure he and everyone else who bots should get banned, too.

Mine is at 50, from dumping every skill point I've gotten so far into it. Now it takes an entire level to increase hiding by 1, so it certainly seems broken.

[Niburu]

The OP already admitted to macroing. I think he said his friends all do it, too. If he's telling the truth, I'm sure he does have hiding maxed. I'm sure he and everyone else who bots should get banned, too.

Mine is at 50, from dumping every skill point I've gotten so far into it. Now it takes an entire level to increase hiding by 1, so it certainly seems broken.

You are clueless, botting and macroing are different things. And even with a macro i doubt he has it 100. i did it for 3h to gain one piont andi guess it will be harder at higher levels

[jemmus]

It sounds like somebody in green basket wear would be harder to spot than somebody in a red smoking jacket. If so, that's a nice realism feature. Can anybody confirm?

[Sirius]

There's no way anyone is anywhere near 100 hiding without extensive macroing.

[Surly]

I have 70 perception and people with 100 hiding are just a little bit blurier then when they are not hiding. From my pesrepctive there is no point in hiding skill as I can spot any hiders from miles away.

Maybe you should not have rolled with 10 perception and then glorified a skill that in current form is crap?

Oh and people with 100 hiding skill... lol. All that effort just to be able to sneak up on people with 10 perception and only if they are not looking hard? LOL!That's bunk, you're just making things up. With 90 perception, those with 100 hiding are still quite difficult to see. When have you even seen some one with 100 hiding? You don't even leave your one man homestead.


It sounds like somebody in green basket wear would be harder to spot than somebody in a red smoking jacket. If so, that's a nice realism feature. Can anybody confirm?Not at all the case, when your hiding gets high enough the colors you wear are irrelevant since you basically become a shadow that refracts light. In fact, the giant green baskets would make you easier to see since your profile and refraction silhouette are bigger.


There's no way anyone is anywhere near 100 hiding without extensive macroing.Most of us (aside from myself) have macroed it pretty much exclusively. Well, that and jump. Two of them in particularly didn't really have time to play the game (or didn't want to deal with its bullshit) so all they did was macro hide, in propriety, for the entirety of the last 10 days. Hiding skill gain, we think, was nerfed even further about 4-5 days ago so that you get maybe 1 point per night of macroing... but those who were doing it all the time had it in the 90s by then anyway.

I suppose I could ask them to give me screenshots, but given that the only two people I know who claim to have 100 hide certainly LOOK like they have significantly more hide than those with 80, and that they may as well have been macro bots for the first week, I believe it.

[sudo]

Most of us (aside from myself) have macroed it pretty much exclusively. Well, that and jump.

Good times!

[Surly]

P.S. macroing terraform leveling is an easy way to get about 70 skill points :P

[niccoli00]

You are clueless, botting and macroing are different things. And even with a macro i doubt he has it 100. i did it for 3h to gain one piont andi guess it will be harder at higher levels

Once I figured out you had to spam hide on and off, I did this the first few days, skill gains were fast.

Then they nerfed it and now they are extremely slow.

Sadly, this will drive more people to macro it. Artificial slowing of skill gains only promotes the idea of macros. What may have taken 30ish hides per skill point is probably now in the thousands, I've given up on working it higher because of this. I won't waste level skill points in it, or in anything for that matter because the game isn't finished.

Right now, spending your level points is foolish because later you're going to wish you have them for some other skill that finally becomes useful.

It's pretty cool as Surly has described, but good luck getting anywhere near that level of skill now.

[Jollepoker]

When skill gains are as slow as clicking a button 54000 times (60 times each minute for 15 hours), there is no wonder that people will macro it. Fix this before trying to stop the macroing please, else players will go around using skills basically all the time they find a need to only to have to wait a year (I'm not kidding, the hiding skill could probably take a year) or so before it actually raises one point. A point which probably does not do any difference as you would need more points for it to actually do anything at all.

[orious13]

Just clicking the button should give 0 skill gain. It should be time based on being near non-tribe/non-friendly players while in hide.

[Lily]

Just clicking the button should give 0 skill gain. It should be time based on being near non-tribe/non-friendly players while in hide.

One person drops tribe and both hide in front of each other. Two lots of skill gain for the price of one.

... next!

[ifireallymust]

You are clueless, botting and macroing are different things. And even with a macro i doubt he has it 100. i did it for 3h to gain one piont andi guess it will be harder at higher levels

They're not two different things because they have the same end result- you don't have to be at your keyboard mashing a button or buttons to achieve skill gain/resources gathered/items crafted/whatever you're doing in the game.

[Jollepoker]

They're not two different things because they have the same end result- you don't have to be at your keyboard mashing a button or buttons to achieve skill gain/resources gathered/items crafted/whatever you're doing in the game.

http://puu.sh/1kec

[ifireallymust]

http://puu.sh/1kec

Oh don't get me wrong, skilling hide needs some kind of overhaul. I'm not going to risk getting banned to skill it, and I'm also not risking carpal tunnel, either! And I would like to max it, which doesn't seem likely to happen the way things are now, even with putting every skill point gained from everything else into it.

The problem with not allowing macroing but not banning or in some other way preventing those who break the rule against macroing is, only people willing to cheat will be able to effectively hide without suffering from carpal tunnel. So either macroing should not be against the rules, or macroers should be banned or have their characters reset when they're caught.

[Jollepoker]

Oh don't get me wrong, skilling hide needs some kind of overhaul. I'm not going to risk getting banned to skill it, and I'm also not risking carpal tunnel, either! And I would like to max it, which doesn't seem likely to happen the way things are now, even with putting every skill point gained from everything else into it.

The problem with not allowing macroing but not banning or in some other way preventing those who break the rule against macroing is, only people willing to cheat will be able to effectively hide without suffering from carpal tunnel. So either macroing should not be against the rules, or macroers should be banned or have their characters reset when they're caught.

What a macro does is basically pressing buttons for you. It's not programming your computer in any way other than actually just pressing buttons. Many keyboards and mouses have this function built in them, are these cheating as well? If so, then why do many big companies create these gaming keyboards and mouses if they are not intended to be used? As long as it's actually just button pressing I see nothing wrong with it, as it is exacly the same you would do and you don't really need to use any third-party-tools to use them, which means it's technically not against the TOS by using them.

Seeing how Windows (I guess any other OS also works) is also a third-party program in this case, which isn't really needed for you to play Xsyon, I find it strange that they have not taking action against people using it since it probably gives an advantage against people that don't have it.

Speaking of things that gives an advantage, what about having a good computer? Shouldn't that be cheating as well? Or maybe even having a good connection to the server? Should every EU player report all US players for cheating because they have much better ping than they do? Should I report every youtube video I find of people that have more FPS than me?

Yes, you might think this sounds silly... But it's really on the same level as macroing if you think about it (and know exactly what macroing actually is).

[Dirt]

Im not sure how macroing is accomplished, screwing with the code i assume. How the hell do people even learn this stuff? Are they the computer programmer guys? If i open those files on my P.C. i understand nothing and imagine it would take a bit of knowledge to be able to manipulate them. Do they teach this stuff in highschool nowadays?

[Jadzia]

What a macro does is basically pressing buttons for you. It's not programming your computer in any way other than actually just pressing buttons. Many keyboards and mouses have this function built in them, are these cheating as well? If so, then why do many big companies create these gaming keyboards and mouses if they are not intended to be used? As long as it's actually just button pressing I see nothing wrong with it, as it is exacly the same you would do and you don't really need to use any third-party-tools to use them, which means it's technically not against the TOS by using them.

Seeing how Windows (I guess any other OS also works) is also a third-party program in this case, which isn't really needed for you to play Xsyon, I find it strange that they have not taking action against people using it since it probably gives an advantage against people that don't have it.

Speaking of things that gives an advantage, what about having a good computer? Shouldn't that be cheating as well? Or maybe even having a good connection to the server? Should every EU player report all US players for cheating because they have much better ping than they do? Should I report every youtube video I find of people that have more FPS than me?

Yes, you might think this sounds silly... But it's really on the same level as macroing if you think about it (and know exactly what macroing actually is).

The problem is unattended macroing, when you make your character staying online and grinding skills while you are asleep or spending your time somewhere else.


Im not sure how macroing is accomplished, screwing with the code i assume. How the hell do people even learn this stuff? Are they the computer programmer guys? If i open those files on my P.C. i understand nothing and imagine it would take a bit of knowledge to be able to manipulate them. Do they teach this stuff in highschool nowadays?

I can pm the answer to you if you wish, I don't want to give any further ideas here :p

[Jollepoker]

The problem is unattended macroing, when you make your character staying online and grinding skills while you are asleep or spending your time somewhere else.



I can pm the answer to you if you wish, I don't want to give any further ideas here :p

Why is this a problem? It's just the same as if you were staying up mindlessly pressing those same buttons. Which means it does not do anything you could not do and often not in any way you could not do (or even at the speed you could not do). Why is it important for you to lose eyesight and brain functionality just to gain skill points? When you macro you basically tell the computer "Here is something I've already done a 100 times, now please... As I have no intention of doing this over and over for another 1000000 times, please do it for me in exactly the same way I've done it". It's like asking your friend to play the game for you while you sleep.

But perhaps owning an account with a friend taking shifts sleeping/playing is considered cheating too.

[Niburu]

Im not sure how macroing is accomplished, screwing with the code i assume. How the hell do people even learn this stuff? Are they the computer programmer guys? If i open those files on my P.C. i understand nothing and imagine it would take a bit of knowledge to be able to manipulate them. Do they teach this stuff in highschool nowadays?

lol are you trolling ?

A macro is nothing else as virtual keyboard. instead that your keyboard send this signal for a key a program sends this command to windows. this is not rocket sience

[Dirt]

ok, its not rocket sience.

[orious13]

One person drops tribe and both hide in front of each other. Two lots of skill gain for the price of one.

... next!

Sure.... that makes more sense than just tap tap tap.

[Jadzia]

Why is this a problem? It's just the same as if you were staying up mindlessly pressing those same buttons. Which means it does not do anything you could not do and often not in any way you could not do (or even at the speed you could not do). Why is it important for you to lose eyesight and brain functionality just to gain skill points? When you macro you basically tell the computer "Here is something I've already done a 100 times, now please... As I have no intention of doing this over and over for another 1000000 times, please do it for me in exactly the same way I've done it". It's like asking your friend to play the game for you while you sleep.

But perhaps owning an account with a friend taking shifts sleeping/playing is considered cheating too.
Actually you are suggesting that all of us should start with 100 points on every stats, with maxed out skills and having all the recipes, since you find the process which gets you there boring and useless. Thats a point too, but why to play the game then ? No wonder that the macroers complain that they are already bored. If I macroed my skills up I would be bored as well.

Honestly, if you feel the need to macro that means the game is not for you, since you find it boring. You probably don't get the feeling of achievement when you reach a goal you've set to yourself. I'd suggest you to try another game with instant gratification.

[Jollepoker]

Actually you are suggesting that all of us should start with 100 points on every stats, with maxed out skills and having all the recipes, since you find the process which gets you there boring and useless. Thats a point too, but why to play the game then ? No wonder that the macroers complain that they are already bored. If I macroed my skills up I would be bored as well.

Honestly, if you feel the need to macro that means the game is not for you, since you find it boring. You probably don't get the feeling of achievement when you reach a goal you've set to yourself. I'd suggest you to try another game with instant gratification.

I did not at all say that I wanted us to start with 100 in every skill. What I meant is that this system is a "the longer you sit and press this button, the better you be when you actually start playing" kind of system, which in practice is a macro system (either by being the macro yourself, or creating one). With such a system, there is no achievement as you realize the second you've gained a skill point how utterly pointless and stupid it was of you to spend so many hours endlessly pressing that one button without doing anything else for so little a "achievement".

As the systems are right now (that is the standard MMO concept of "Press button x times for xx hours > Gain skill" instead of "Use skill in a cool way + something else > Gain skill") they are indeed pretty boring, I will not deny that. However, that is not the only thing wrong with it. It's the ONLY thing you can do right now, with everything else either turned off or too laggy/broken to actually do.

Saying that this isn't a "instant gratification" game is also wrong. As all you have to do to get that "satisfaction" is to press the same button endlessly/do the same thing endlessly without any variation what so ever. You don't need to interact with other people and you don't need to actively play. All you need to do is press a button. I can actually see more satisfaction in playing a game which at least brings you forward and shows you new stuff all the time even though it tells you exactly how to reach those things.

But thats just how Xsyon is today. It may (hopefully) change later.

[ifireallymust]

I'm quite sure both my mouse and keyboard are capable of playing Xsyon for me while I sleep or am otherwise occupied.

I'm also quite sure I won't figure out how to get either of them to do so because it's against the ToS.

Since I'm following the rules, everyone who doesn't will either be punished for breaking the rules or will have an advantage over me and other rule followers in game. If the latter, I think a lot of people will stop playing, and I might be one of them.

[Surly]

I'm quite sure both my mouse and keyboard are capable of playing Xsyon for me while I sleep or am otherwise occupied.

I'm also quite sure I won't figure out how to get either of them to do so because it's against the ToS.

Since I'm following the rules, everyone who doesn't will either be punished for breaking the rules or will have an advantage over me and other rule followers in game. If the latter, I think a lot of people will stop playing, and I might be one of them.Well if you want to be technical, every single activity you engage in while playing Xsyon can be construed as "against the ToS" because of open-ended interpretation-based clauses like "deemed offensive" without a definition of authority.

Using third party programs to aid in gameplay could also be something as simple as opening up Windows Calculator to measure distances for terraforming.

Personally, I just play video games. I don't get caught up in all the haughty ToS crap, the senseless pseudo-rules, the obnoxious "meta game." It's all unenforceable, and most of the time is written to give moderation practices a wide range of activities that they can take action against so they're more able to use their personal judgment. I don't like macroing, either. I just hate it less than mindlessly repeating actions that serve no gameplay purpose for me. I prefer a game where macroing is unnecessary, and therefore doesn't exist. Unfortunately, this is a game that needs macros to play... and macroing the game as it is right now is the only way anyone's going to put up with the monotony of its crafting, gathering, and skill grinding. So it's "against the ToS" huh? Big deal. I once hated macroers too, refused to use macros, and regarded it as something that "ruined games." That was back in UO though, and I've wised up a lot since then. I came to realize that you cannot ever kill macros with petty rules and regulations, you have to evolve the game beyond mechanics that necessitate their use. I also believe that UO proved that it's impossible to stop macroing, so we have to move past that childish mentality and start getting down to the fundamentals that are really the issue.

And, for now, that means getting the game to work. You can build on top of that stable plateau once you've built it.