The Best way to handle macroers

[Mactavendish]

So far the very best way to deal with macro'ing players is how our Tribe does it...

If anyone is caught macroing, we turn them in to the guides. Period! No excuses.

Macroing is against the TOS and is unacceptable EVEN if the player caught is in our own tribe! By letting the guides handle the offender, the responsibility is placed back upon those that run the game and the player breaking the rules.

Our tribe is an honorable and lawful tribe that will just not cotten to anyone that wants to break the rules. Rules will help us all stay civil, lack of rules will cause chaos and ruin our fun and games.

LaughingOak
Trader and Emissary for the Regulators tribe.

[Haunt]

I have read the TOS, can you quote where it says Macroing is against it? I don't doubt it is against TOS, but I sure could not find it.

[Redus]

I have read the TOS, can you quote where it says Macroing is against it? I don't doubt it is against TOS, but I sure could not find it.

3. Use of third party software that would give you or anyone else an advantage of any form.

Did not read everything, but if this is all then you can use Macro's as long as they do not give you or anyone else an advantage. Pretty gray area, if I would use a 3rd party software that everyone could do I then still have a advantage?

[Haunt]

3. Use of third party software that would give you or anyone else an advantage of any form.

Did not read everything, but if this is all then you can use Macro's as long as they do not give you or anyone else an advantage. Pretty gray area, if I would use a 3rd party software that everyone could do I then still have a advantage?

OK, so I cannot use EasyMacro or similar programs. That is cool. But see I have a mouse and a keyboard that automates clicks. No software required. So I am fine using that. Glad you cleared that up.

Or take it to the other extreme and the people that used programs to help them create a world map should be banned. A map surely gives them an advantage.

Bottom line, everyone knows what a macro is. If they wanted to make macroing against TOS, then they need to add a number and state it clearly.

66. The use of macroing or other automated key and mouse-clicking programs, services, or hardware that allows a person to perform actions in the game while not touching the keyboard or mouse is prohibited.

They can make it sound better then that, but until they give us something like the above, they have no leg to stand on in the macroing war. By not having something clear like this they are condoning macroing without actually saying it.

[joexxxz]

Or if you see one, kill em,. Take what they macroed, and use it for your benifit :)

[Zenmaster13]

OK, so I cannot use EasyMacro or similar programs. That is cool. But see I have a mouse and a keyboard that automates clicks. No software required. So I am fine using that. Glad you cleared that up.

Or take it to the other extreme and the people that used programs to help them create a world map should be banned. A map surely gives them an advantage.

Bottom line, everyone knows what a macro is. If they wanted to make macroing against TOS, then they need to add a number and state it clearly.

66. The use of macroing or other automated key and mouse-clicking programs, services, or hardware that allows a person to perform actions in the game while not touching the keyboard or mouse is prohibited.

They can make it sound better then that, but until they give us something like the above, they have no leg to stand on in the macroing war. By not having something clear like this they are condoning macroing without actually saying it.

Seriously Haunt? Don't ever try to become a lawyer. Clearly you are a macroer. Otherwise you would not put up this weak defense of macros. Just so you know, it takes software to make your keyboard automated. It may be imbedded in a chip, but it is still software.

Every single piece of software can be automated if it is a repetitive task. Just because you can get away with it, does not mean you have to do it.

[Tankred]

Another way to handle it could be making trivial tasks more interesting/less carpal tunnel syndrom causing to do and less of a $£@$!*'+ grind.

It's no wonder people get tempted to do macros when you have to spam your hide key for 30+ mins to gain 1 point in the skill. Click your right mouse key x number of times to pick up stone or fish.

Stuff like gathering static resources should be channeled instead of having to click a key each time.

[ifireallymust]

Another way to handle it could be making trivial tasks more interesting/less carpal tunnel syndrom causing to do and less of a $£@$!*'+ grind.

It's no wonder people get tempted to do macros when you have to spam your hide key for 30+ mins to gain 1 point in the skill. Click your right mouse key x number of times to pick up stone or fish.

Stuff like gathering static resources should be channeled instead of having to click a key each time.

Hide is messed up, no doubt about it. You can definintely get carpal tunnel trying to skill hide. The rest doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Notorious could define macroing better, state what is prohibited more clearly in the ToS, and post it here, too. Then post that the penalty is something along the lines of, one warning, next time your character gets wiped, after that it's a permaban. That might get people's attention.

[Dade512]

I agree that players should take the responsibility of reporting macroers but I also think they should work on making abilities less tedious and more engaging/interesting to use.

[Mactavendish]

One thing that seems very odd to me is that folks seem to feel they MUST have lvl 100 skills ASAP!!! Ever actually PLAY a game?

I think some are reading the TOS like you want it to read.

Using 3rd party software, including the 3rd party software that came with your mouse.

Also, it is all about using programs and being afk.

Remember the tos says it is NG's right to decide what breaks the TOS of how those rules are applied.

Also remember that it says...

18. Encouraging others to break these rules... is breaking the TOS.

So by commenting on what you perceive as a loop hole, could also be considered a breaking of the TOS.

[Sorakin]

OK, so I cannot use EasyMacro or similar programs. That is cool. But see I have a mouse and a keyboard that automates clicks. No software required. So I am fine using that. Glad you cleared that up.

Or take it to the other extreme and the people that used programs to help them create a world map should be banned. A map surely gives them an advantage.

Bottom line, everyone knows what a macro is. If they wanted to make macroing against TOS, then they need to add a number and state it clearly.

66. The use of macroing or other automated key and mouse-clicking programs, services, or hardware that allows a person to perform actions in the game while not touching the keyboard or mouse is prohibited.

They can make it sound better then that, but until they give us something like the above, they have no leg to stand on in the macroing war. By not having something clear like this they are condoning macroing without actually saying it.

I love people who make these arguments. What people fail to realize is that agreeing to these terms of service basically means if you are doing anything that they feel is not in the best interest of the game they can ban you (hell I've seen people get banned for doing nothing wrong in games). Not even to mention that the ToS is not the 10 commandments and is not set in stone, they can just modify it as needed and have you re-agree to it. If you don't agree then they don't let you play, if you agree to it and macro you get banned, either way you aren't playing. So many bans sticks handed out by MMO companies over the years where people go complain after the fact that they did nothing wrong, the company states some BS from the ToS and calls it a day...

[Redus]

OK, so I cannot use EasyMacro or similar programs. That is cool. But see I have a mouse and a keyboard that automates clicks. No software required. So I am fine using that. Glad you cleared that up.

Or take it to the other extreme and the people that used programs to help them create a world map should be banned. A map surely gives them an advantage.

Bottom line, everyone knows what a macro is. If they wanted to make macroing against TOS, then they need to add a number and state it clearly.

66. The use of macroing or other automated key and mouse-clicking programs, services, or hardware that allows a person to perform actions in the game while not touching the keyboard or mouse is prohibited.

They can make it sound better then that, but until they give us something like the above, they have no leg to stand on in the macroing war. By not having something clear like this they are condoning macroing without actually saying it.

1. I agree that they might be less vague about it

2. You keyboard and mouse uses software to run it macro's.

"So by commenting on what you perceive as a loop hole, could also be considered a breaking of the TOS."

I like that quote! If there is a loophool it is clearly not against the TOS and telling people about that loophole is not against the TOS. Also "I think some are reading the TOS like you want it to read. " That is because is simply not clear enough? How hard is it to be clear on subjects like this in your TOS. Some games do allow running 3rd party programs as long a they do not do it better or faster then you and you have to be at the game while running it.

The line I quoted could indicate they do not mind it as long as it does not do things faster then you or when your AFK/AFG. I do use the rule that when in doubt just do not do it, but being clear about subject like this would help.

[Sorakin]

Just to show how little rights you have in the ToS here you go:

"Notorious Games reserves the right to terminate or suspend any account that has directly breached the code of conduct or any part of the Terms Of Service. This right also extends to any and all accounts that are in any way connected to the offending account . Upon termination of accounts all rights granted to you under the Terms Of Service are immediately revoked. You may suspend your account at any given point effectively removing all rights and permissions of the Terms Of Service and access to the software. Upon suspension of your account any further payments will be halted. You will not receive any refund for prepayments or loss of time caused from early suspension."

"5. Rules of Conduct:

You will not display inappropriate conduct while you have access to the game and its content. Such conduct includes but is not limited to:

2. Any action that directly, or otherwise, interferes with other game users in such a way that was not intended by the creators."

Ban sticks for everyone!!!

[ryushidr]

Another way to handle it could be making trivial tasks more interesting/less carpal tunnel syndrom causing to do and less of a $£@$!*'+ grind.

It's no wonder people get tempted to do macros when you have to spam your hide key for 30+ mins to gain 1 point in the skill. Click your right mouse key x number of times to pick up stone or fish.

Stuff like gathering static resources should be channeled instead of having to click a key each time.

I think this is the only reasonable solution. If the basic game interactions are not fun then people will be tempted to macro. Banning these players is only reducing the player base.

[Zenmaster13]

I think this is the only reasonable solution. If the basic game interactions are not fun then people will be tempted to macro. Banning these players is only reducing the player base.

I agree devs could make things less mundane. Hell, why don't they give you an "i Win" button (sarcasm). Temptation is just that, Temptation. No one is forcing anyone to macro. If you find it boring, you should not be playing it. Saying you have to "spam" something to level it is stupid. Clearly, the long leveling process is intentional. You were not meant to max it in a few days. Same with all other skills. No one is forcing you to "spam".

Saying that this or any other game begs to be macroed is a sorry excuse to say the least. Generally what happens, is that these people get bored when the macroing program has played their char to max level. They don't play, they macro. Big difference. Then when they can't come out and show off how good their macro program was (pretending it is their own skill), they freak out and come in here to complain about lack of content, etc.

I figure the best solution for people like me who actually play the game is to give the impatient, insta-gratification crowd their own server, with every skilled maxed, every item, etc. All players will have the exact same setup. Then they can continue the epeen contest undisturbed, and forgotten by normal average people who just want to have fun.

[Sirius]

To be clear, 3rd party software, including any you write yourself, is OK so long as it doesn't touch or interact with the client, i.e. send it data or read/sniff data from it.

This has been confirmed by Virtus in IRC.

[Sorakin]

To be clear, 3rd party software, including any you write yourself, is OK so long as it doesn't touch or interact with the client, i.e. send it data or read/sniff data from it.

This has been confirmed by Virtus in IRC.

This seems contrary to other information given... so programs that do simple keystrokes and mousemovements are fine according to that because it doesn't read/sniff any data from the client and blindly goes and repeats motions? Seems misleading, I assume Virtus was misquoted on that, otherwise macro it up boys...

[Sirius]

Read what I said more carefully.

Sending keystrokes and mouseclicks to the client = touching the client, interacting with the client, and sending data to the client.

As long as your software does none of the things I said, it's fine.

[Sorakin]

I don't know how all the programs send the commands. But typically the program sends them to Windows and then Windows sends them to your client via windows API, thus the 3rd party program is not touching the client. Looking the same as if you were actually hitting the keyboard buttons. I think he should just clarify his statement...

[niccoli00]

The funny thing is, it's a vague rule, difficult to enforce and honestly, treat the problem and not the symptom.

People use macros because of the way is designed. I use macro's to perform repetitive tasks. Having to perform 6 clicks per combine when crafting, starts to hurt in the wrist. If I have everything needed, I really shouldn't have to right click it every time.

Does this give me an advantage over other players? I suppose if you consider my chances of wrist issues are lower, sure.

[Sirius]

Lol I don't think any clarification is needed.

If you make/use a program that sends input to the client, trying to argue "but it wasn't sending data to the client! it only sent it to the OS, which passed it along to the client!" is just not going to cut it. That's like saying you didn't send a mailbomb to your victim (you only sent it to the post office!).

The words I used were mine, not Virtus's. I could come up with more bulletproof language, but it seems unnecessary as the meaning is fairly clear. And, the use of general language in the TOS gives the devs some more flexibility in policing their game.

[Sorakin]

Lol I don't think any clarification is needed.

If you make/use a program that sends input to the client, trying to argue "but it wasn't sending data to the client! it only sent it to the OS, which passed it along to the client!" is just not going to cut it. That's like saying you didn't send a mailbomb to your victim (you only sent it to the post office!).

The words I used were mine, not Virtus's. I could come up with more bulletproof language, but it seems unnecessary as the meaning is fairly clear.

Well I misinterpreted you originally to mean something else... so obviously the meaning wasn't clear. And yes I read it over and over. Reading/sniffing the client is what Bots do, not macro programs. Saying something in your own language which is not specific and then saying Virtus has confirmed this information is just asking for trouble.

Sorry, next time I will just disbelieve you and wait for clear and concise information to come from Virtus instead of heresay. I guess thats why heresay isn't allowed as evidence in courtrooms.

[Zenmaster13]

The funny thing is, it's a vague rule, difficult to enforce and honestly, treat the problem and not the symptom.

People use macros because of the way is designed. I use macro's to perform repetitive tasks. Having to perform 6 clicks per combine when crafting, starts to hurt in the wrist. If I have everything needed, I really shouldn't have to right click it every time.

Does this give me an advantage over other players? I suppose if you consider my chances of wrist issues are lower, sure.

The problem is the macroer. The symptom is over skilled players who become bored because they macroed, thus creating another problem.

I often hear the same argument you put forward. " I am saving myself from carpo-tunnel". BS, if you really want to save your wrists, why are you playing at all? Very weak premise. Yes it does give you an advantage( not that I care, because I don't let it affect me). Most software and games have repetitve tasks involving clicks and keyboard commands. This is something you cannot get away from if you want to play ANY game.

The problem is more with the people wanting it all now or as soon as possible, not with game design. If it could be prevented through game design, it would already have been done. Dispute this if you want, but there have been millions of hours put in by programmers all around the world, but no software exists with repetitive tasks, that is unmacroable.

[Sirius]

Well I misinterpreted you originally to mean something else... so obviously the meaning wasn't clear. And yes I read it over and over. Reading/sniffing the client is what Bots do, not macro programs.

Uhm.. what I said was this:


is OK so long as it doesn't touch or interact with the client, i.e. send it data or read/sniff data from it.

Notice the bolded parts. All macro programs send data to the client -- even the ones that send it to Windows first.


Saying something in your own language which is not specific and then saying Virtus has confirmed this information is just asking for trouble. Sorry, next time I will just disbelieve you and wait for clear and concise information to come from Virtus instead of heresay. I guess thats why heresay isn't allowed as evidence in courtrooms.

When talking with Virtus I used the exact same language as I just used in this thread. He said it's fine.

And the language I used is as specific as you're going to get. For example, look at the TOS and all you see is incredibly general language. That's because if they were to get very specific, they'd have people looking for loopholes and mincing words just like you are, trying to argue that a program isn't really "sending data to the client" so long as it uses the frickin' operating system as an intermediary...

Moral of the story: use software that does none of the things I described, you're fine. A bit of common sense goes a long way.

[Sorakin]

I get what you are saying now and thanks for clarifying as I originally asked, only took a handful of demeaning posts to get what I originally asked for. I feel like I'm playing a game of LoL, the louder you yell the more right you are.

[joexxxz]

All macroing would be impossible if windows created some sorf of protection from this. Also intel. And the hardware manufacturers

Blame those guys

[niccoli00]

The problem is the macroer. The symptom is over skilled players who become bored because they macroed, thus creating another problem.

I often hear the same argument you put forward. " I am saving myself from carpo-tunnel". BS, if you really want to save your wrists, why are you playing at all? Very weak premise. Yes it does give you an advantage( not that I care, because I don't let it affect me). Most software and games have repetitve tasks involving clicks and keyboard commands. This is something you cannot get away from if you want to play ANY game.

The problem is more with the people wanting it all now or as soon as possible, not with game design. If it could be prevented through game design, it would already have been done. Dispute this if you want, but there have been millions of hours put in by programmers all around the world, but no software exists with repetitive tasks, that is unmacroable.

I'd like to know what advantage it gives, based on your opinion. If I sit at the computer, clicking the entire time, or I have something click for me while I sit at the computer. Both can only operate at the same speed. Both have the same timers for creating/gathering.

So if they added a system to crafting that checked to see if you had what was needed, and all you had to do was click once. Hell, even say "I want to make 10" so you type 10 and click once, that it would somehow break things?

Seriously?

As it is, if I want to make 10 forager paddles, simple, 2 items to make. I click 100 times for the stone, 20 times to pick each item, 10 times for each create. Not to mention all the mouse dragging.

Does this make the game fun somehow?

Sure, ALL games have repetitive tasks, I never said they didn't. But a lot of games try to actually make the gameplay where it doesn't require a retarded amount of clicks/movements to perform them. And guess what, in those games, I haven't bothered looking at macros because THERE WAS NO POINT.

Some people make macro's to avoid these pointless repetitions. Others do it to gain skill while not having to sit at the machine. Both of these could be mitigated by changes to the way skill gain occurs as well as how gameplay is done. Gameplay improvements benefit everyone. Wasting guide time hunting down afk macroers is semi effective and doesn't benefit anyone directly.


All macroing would be impossible if windows created some sorf of protection from this. Also intel. And the hardware manufacturers

Blame those guys

LOL.

I work for a software testing company. I'd have to change careers if this were the case. Automation makes testing much much smoother. Not that you'd ever see any kind of block of what automation software can do at the OS level.

[joexxxz]

LOL.

I work for a software testing company. I'd have to change careers if this were the case. Automation makes testing much much smoother. Not that you'd ever see any kind of block of what automation software can do at the OS level.

No really, U would still have the job, but the programmers who write macro programs to hack games, would be out of job, u know how?

[Redus]

I often hear the same argument you put forward. " I am saving myself from carpo-tunnel". BS, if you really want to save your wrists, why are you playing at all? Very weak premise. Yes it does give you an advantage( not that I care, because I don't let it affect me).

Why does a F1 cars get saver and saver? If the driver is so afraid to crash and get wounded then why drive at all? While playing a game might not wound your that bad it is the same.

Sirius I think he meant what you trying to say he meant. However there is a big difference from setting my keyboard to do some macro's or actually sending data to the client. When someone is using read/sniff data and sending data in one sentence then I am thinking about catching network/client packages and altering the data and send it back with false data.

In fact any keystroke and mouse click whatever a macro or not is done by a third party application :P

Beside that why did he not just say "No you can not use a macro". Is it really that hard? However like I said before. If you are not sure then do not use it!!

[Sirius]

I get what you are saying now and thanks for clarifying as I originally asked, only took a handful of demeaning posts to get what I originally asked for. I feel like I'm playing a game of LoL, the louder you yell the more right you are.

Dude it was all stated correctly in the first post, not sure what more you expect.


When someone is using read/sniff data and sending data in one sentence then I am thinking about catching network/client packages and altering the data and send it back with false data.

Ok, I guess I can see how you would think I meant something different. But notice my original post also said that it was forbidden to use software that interacts with the client. You agree that any software that sends data or commands to the client is "interacting" with it, right?

[Niburu]

One thing that seems very odd to me is that folks seem to feel they MUST have lvl 100 skills ASAP!!! Ever actually PLAY a game?

I think some are reading the TOS like you want it to read.

Using 3rd party software, including the 3rd party software that came with your mouse.

Also, it is all about using programs and being afk.

Remember the tos says it is NG's right to decide what breaks the TOS of how those rules are applied.

Also remember that it says...

18. Encouraging others to break these rules... is breaking the TOS.

So by commenting on what you perceive as a loop hole, could also be considered a breaking of the TOS.

if you call clicking a button watching a progression bar and all that for nothing ( crafting useless, walls useless) playing, then you are very...

[niccoli00]

No really, U would still have the job, but the programmers who write macro programs to hack games, would be out of job, u know how?

You do realize the same tools I use at work, are the same tools that people use to write macros/bots/etc. Apparently not, based on your statement. There are a few programs that were specifically written for games, but for the most part, the generic tools are what people are using.

[Hurk]

I personally do not macro, as I feel I would miss something during my characters development. I have in the past used software to gain an advantage. It is called voip. Teamspeak and the like give a group of players a huge advantage over those that don't. Everyone on your voip servers talking about how macroers are ruining your game, consider what the people who don't use voice chat think of you and they'd have just as valid claims as you.

[niccoli00]

I personally do not macro, as I feel I would miss something during my characters development. I have in the past used software to gain an advantage. It is called voip. Teamspeak and the like give a group of players a huge advantage over those that don't. Everyone on your voip servers talking about how macroers are ruining your game, consider what the people who don't use voice chat think of you and they'd have just as valid claims as you.

BAN TS/Vent/Skype/etc!! ;)

[Dirt]

"it's too boring to click my Button"......
So therefore i am entitled to cheat.
Friggin buffoons surround me wherever i go in life. You know who you are.

[Sirius]

"it's too boring to click my Button"......
So therefore i am entitled to cheat.
Friggin buffoons surround me wherever i go in life. You know who you are.

Do you spend all your time here (http://historyofeconomics.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/hall-of-mirrors.jpg)?

[Dirt]

buffoons, i tell you.
Look! I surrounded one with my posts there. See how i did that? simple.

[ifireallymust]

If you don't like Xsyon, email the devs and speak out on the forums for whatever it is you think you will like. Or don't play it at all.

There is no option allowed under the ToS for getting a keyboard or mouse to play for you while you go do something else.

If your heart is really set on playing a game by programming your keyboard or mouse to play it, however, there are games that cater to that style.

If your heart is really set on playing Xsyon by programming your keyboard or mouse to play it, you'll have to email the devs and petition for it on the forum until it's allowed. Until you change the ToS, macroing is a form of cheating.

How hard is that to understand?

[bruisie159]

i used /h today to report a macroer, no reply from a dev after 30 mins i gave up.

[VeryWiiTee]

I got to agree.

It is not just 30min of casual clicking to get a skill in hide. It is solid spamming the skill for 30min.
If you indeed -do- have a life. That is not an acceptable skill up rate.
They have been made aware of this countless and countless of times now. Hench the reason a lot of people actually macro hide.

I agree that it obviously shouldn't be allowed, if they don't believe it is fair. Then I'd suggest they make an announcement first to all players that they are concerned etc and then ban. Perhaps clarify the ToS.
On the other hand.. Make it a bit more interesting levelling hide and various other skills. That'll benefit us all, no?

[Armand]

Notorious is failing by not addressing this issue.

Would it kill the staff to invest 5 minutes in a clear statement?

[Sirius]

A clear statement about what?

[ifireallymust]

I got to agree.

It is not just 30min of casual clicking to get a skill in hide. It is solid spamming the skill for 30min.
If you indeed -do- have a life. That is not an acceptable skill up rate.
They have been made aware of this countless and countless of times now. Hench the reason a lot of people actually macro hide.

I agree that it obviously shouldn't be allowed, if they don't believe it is fair. Then I'd suggest they make an announcement first to all players that they are concerned etc and then ban. Perhaps clarify the ToS.
On the other hand.. Make it a bit more interesting levelling hide and various other skills. That'll benefit us all, no?

Well as for hide, I think a better solution might be to simply not allow using it to raise it. Let the only way to raise it be putting points in it from other skill gains (which is the only way I've gotten any points in hide). If we aren't supposed to hide because it's too OP, then give us the points we invested back and make hide go away, I guess. But making it impossible to skill without either carpal tunnel setting in or macroing does seem a bit off.

[niccoli00]

Well as for hide, I think a better solution might be to simply not allow using it to raise it. Let the only way to raise it be putting points in it from other skill gains (which is the only way I've gotten any points in hide). If we aren't supposed to hide because it's too OP, then give us the points we invested back and make hide go away, I guess. But making it impossible to skill without either carpal tunnel setting in or macroing does seem a bit off.

Yes, lets require the use of craft/gather skills to raise non craft/gather skills. Good idea.


Notorious is failing by not addressing this issue.

Would it kill the staff to invest 5 minutes in a clear statement?

As of now it's pretty clear. Using 3rd party programs to gain an advantage is bad. :P

[ifireallymust]

Yes, lets require the use of craft/gather skills to raise non craft/gather skills. Good idea.



As of now it's pretty clear. Using 3rd party programs to gain an advantage is bad. :P

They could add '...and will absolutely get your character wiped or will get you banned' to that and it would simple things up quite a bit.

[ryushidr]

Hell, why don't they give you an "i Win" button (sarcasm).

Funny, this would be an interaction designer's solution.



Temptation is just that, Temptation. No one is forcing anyone to macro. If you find it boring, you should not be playing it. Saying you have to "spam" something to level it is stupid. Clearly, the long leveling process is intentional. You were not meant to max it in a few days. Same with all other skills. No one is forcing you to "spam".


Now when I said basic game interactions I want to differentiate between two aspects of this game:

1. Basic Interactions
This would be the actual act of crafting, combat, gathering, hiding, or whatever else you actually tell the game to do. Often there is a little green wait bar that takes from 5-20 seconds depending on the action.

For crafting you have to open up your pack menu, then your bag, then open up the crafting menu, then select the item to craft, then select ALL of the items that go into the crafting. Click craft. Your green bar appears and you do it again if you need to. I'm not saying this is the worst interface for this. It's pretty on par with other games in fact. However, being able to queue up some crafting at the very least would be nice. But adding some sort of fun gameplay interaction for these activities would be _EXCELLENT_. Even combat suffers from being a click fest.

Of course, this is not the first time these critiques have been made.

2. "Macro" interactions

This is where this game really shines. There's huge potential for geographic resource system, growing/shrinking junk piles, deep player driven economies, animal populations, etc etc. This is what is fun about the game for me.


Saying that this or any other game begs to be macroed is a sorry excuse to say the least. Generally what happens, is that these people get bored when the macroing program has played their char to max level. They don't play, they macro. Big difference. Then when they can't come out and show off how good their macro program was (pretending it is their own skill), they freak out and come in here to complain about lack of content, etc.

I'd be curious to take samples of players from different games and see which ones have high populations of macroers and to which mechanics that correlates. I think there are games that beg to be macroed. If it's time-consuming to attain a goal, some tool makes it easier to attain your goals, and there's relatively low risk, then you will probably use that tool. Simple.

However, the point has been made that you don't need high ranks in skills to play the game and enjoy the macro mechanics. I agree with this. Yet the leveling system rewards macroing. In my opinion the skill system should only be developed in such a way that it allows and requires specialization. Being able to max out everything (at one time) is ridiculous in the first place.

[Sirius]

Well as for hide, I think a better solution might be to simply not allow using it to raise it.

this; effective hide will be OP if it is easy to get in addition to typical combat skills... and ineffective hide would just suck

[orious13]

....actually...
I might actually like the "only using level points" to level hide...
This would not make any real sense from an immersion standpoint, but only those dedicated to hide would use points on it.

[ifireallymust]

this; effective hide will be OP if it is easy to get in addition to typical combat skills... and ineffective hide would just suck

Tell me about it. :(

My hide is in the 50s, and it's just now starting to seem slightly effective for defensive purposes. If it's night. If I'm against the right background. If the potential enemies are a good ways off.

I don't mind putting all my points in it from other skill gains, though. I'm a defensive hider and more interested in the fortification side of combat than the actual hack and slash side (I'm old, okay? Reflexes not so good anymore!). I'm just glad I wasn't obsessed with the thought of raising it after launch, or I would have carpal tunnel by now!

[Dirt]

My hide is 5.

[ifireallymust]

My hide is 5.

Much like most of my combat skills!

[Larsa]

My hide is 5.
Same for me. :)

[cbowsin]

My belief is that there are two things that contribute to the players advantage over another in an online game; Time and Money. Many online games have an item mall or something similar that clearly give a player an advantage over another based on how much money they put into the game. Many developers don't want players buying their advantage which results into a time-based model (which Chinese farmers love to take advantage of). The problem with the time based model is that it is equally unfair as the money based system. What I like about MMOs that allow macroing is they pretty much eliminate the time advantage. Someone who has 8 hours a day to play clearly has an advantage over someone who has 2 hours to play. But if both players can macro then essentally both players have 24 hours to play and thus become equals in an online game. Those who are against macroing are usually folks who have plenty of free time to play and don't like the fact that those without as much time but are macroing are gaining the equal advantage they are getting. Otherwise if they didn't care about losing out on an advantage they would careless about people who macro.

[Redus]

Using 3rd party programs to gain an advantage is bad. :P

What if I use them while not gaining an advantage or by definition using a 3rd party program gives you an advantage? Why else use them? Also loved that someone said TS, with is 3rd party and does give you an advantage :P. I love using macro's to take most of the mouse actions from my mouse to my keyboard so I can do stuff without having to use my mouse to often. This could be simple things like macroing emote or slash commands to gathering once piece of resources from the window or maybe even some complicated things that select the right stuff from your inventory (From static assigned places. Else it would be a bot not a macro) with off course a delay inserted.

As long as these things are not to clear I simply would not use them to be sure. I would guess macroing emote or slash commands do not really give you an advantage at all. The gathering of resource get closer to the border (however does not save time at all and does not give me an advantage really) and selecting things from your inventory is just on or over the border (You actually do three+ things with one click. The other examples just replace one click with one click).

To those people who say they should make crafting less boring (It can be improved though...a lot!). Maybe, just maybe if you find such an vital part of a game that boring you need to automate it completely you should simply find an other game? There are game where crafting is a lot more evolved then this game.



My belief is that there are two things that contribute to the players advantage over another in an online game; Time and Money. Many online games have an item mall or something similar that clearly give a player an advantage over another based on how much money they put into the game. Many developers don't want players buying their advantage which results into a time-based model (which Chinese farmers love to take advantage of). The problem with the time based model is that it is equally unfair as the money based system. What I like about MMOs that allow macroing is they pretty much eliminate the time advantage. Someone who has 8 hours a day to play clearly has an advantage over someone who has 2 hours to play. But if both players can macro then essentally both players have 24 hours to play and thus become equals in an online game. Those who are against macroing are usually folks who have plenty of free time to play and don't like the fact that those without as much time but are macroing are gaining the equal advantage they are getting. Otherwise if they didn't care about losing out on an advantage they would careless about people who macro.

That is just nonsense. Some people can only game in internet cafe's cutting there macroing time. Someone share there computer with roommates or brothers and sister cutting there macroing time. Some people actually care for there energy bill cutting there macroing time. If someone can only spend 2 hours in a game and someone else 8 hours he should also be more advanced! If you would allow 24 hours of macroing then the game would just be a bunch of people macroing and AFK/AFG macroing is simply I would never agree with.

Also I am awestruck you really believe it is fare that if someone player the game a lot should be on equal footing to someone who programmed a macro in a few minutes. Unless I missed the sarcasm in your post...

EDIT: Also just like in EvE it would be impossible for someone to actually catch up to others.

[ocoma]

The advantage macroers gain is time limited so long as the cap is turned on if it isn't already. By this I mean that eventually the playerbase will all get to the same power level as the macroer, just alittle bit slower. As such it is practically a non-issue. There are powergamers who play 12+ hours a day that are already just as strong if not stronger skill wise as any macroer, especially since the servers have crashed pretty much atleast once a day. A macro doesn't log you back in and keep grinding, but powergamers do!

Personally I don't consider macros cheats that just imo. Nothing the macroer does can not be done by a normal player powergaming and does not grant any bonuses not available to any other player.

What I do consider cheating and what you people should really be worried about are things like speedhacks, flying, radar, wallhacks, teleporting ect. Actual hacks that do things no player can ever do no matter how long they play for. While on the DF forums yesterday I saw some peeps accussing each other of using MMONinja to cheat in DF. Not knowing what it was I googled it and watched the vids on their website. Then when I looked on there public forums I found this... http://www.mmoninja.com/forum/10/3483.html There are already people asking for a Xsyon cheat toolkit. This is REAL cheating folks.

@Furanku FYI when requesting cheats for a game from a hacking site it is probably not a good idea to use the same account name on that site as you use for said game. Just saying.

[bruisie159]

The advantage macroers gain is time limited so long as the cap is turned on if it isn't already. By this I mean that eventually the playerbase will all get to the same power level as the macroer, just alittle bit slower. As such it is practically a non-issue. There are powergamers who play 12+ hours a day that are already just as strong if not stronger skill wise as any macroer, especially since the servers have crashed pretty much atleast once a day. A macro doesn't log you back in and keep grinding, but powergamers do!

Personally I don't consider macros cheats that just imo. Nothing the macroer does can not be done by a normal player powergaming and does not grant any bonuses not available to any other player.

What I do consider cheating and what you people should really be worried about are things like speedhacks, flying, radar, wallhacks, teleporting ect. Actual hacks that do things no player can ever do no matter how long they play for. While on the DF forums yesterday I saw some peeps accussing each other of using MMONinja to cheat in DF. Not knowing what it was I googled it and watched the vids on their website. Then when I looked on there public forums I found this... http://www.mmoninja.com/forum/10/3483.html There are already people asking for a Xsyon cheat toolkit. This is REAL cheating folks.

@Furanku FYI when requesting cheats for a game from a hacking site it is probably not a good idea to use the same account name on that site as you use for said game. Just saying.

Hmm thats news worthy of his newspaper :)

[Plague]

Ban pathetic tribe and you have eliminated 80% of macro users in this game.

Then start from there.

[joexxxz]

You do realize the same tools I use at work, are the same tools that people use to write macros/bots/etc. Apparently not, based on your statement. There are a few programs that were specifically written for games, but for the most part, the generic tools are what people are using.

What im saying is blame the microsoft, and intel. They are the ones who is responsible for this.

[Atmos]

@Furanku FYI when requesting cheats for a game from a hacking site it is probably not a good idea to use the same account name on that site as you use for said game. Just saying.

Owned. (10 char).

[joexxxz]

My hide is 5.
Thats allot. How did you manage to do that?

[Belight]

So being disabled, I should be banned for using macros to assist me?

Instead of relying on a labor intensive band-aid punishment approach to "ban all the bad guys", I suggested a much better "root cause" fix here:

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/5927-Macro-Philosophy

[dxwarlock]

The advantage macroers gain is time limited so long as the cap is turned on if it isn't already. By this I mean that eventually the playerbase will all get to the same power level as the macroer, just alittle bit slower. As such it is practically a non-issue. There are powergamers who play 12+ hours a day that are already just as strong if not stronger skill wise as any macroer, especially since the servers have crashed pretty much atleast once a day. A macro doesn't log you back in and keep grinding, but powergamers do!

Personally I don't consider macros cheats that just imo. Nothing the macroer does can not be done by a normal player powergaming and does not grant any bonuses not available to any other player.

What I do consider cheating and what you people should really be worried about are things like speedhacks, flying, radar, wallhacks, teleporting ect. Actual hacks that do things no player can ever do no matter how long they play for. While on the DF forums yesterday I saw some peeps accussing each other of using MMONinja to cheat in DF. Not knowing what it was I googled it and watched the vids on their website. Then when I looked on there public forums I found this... http://www.mmoninja.com/forum/10/3483.html There are already people asking for a Xsyon cheat toolkit. This is REAL cheating folks.

@Furanku FYI when requesting cheats for a game from a hacking site it is probably not a good idea to use the same account name on that site as you use for said game. Just saying.

sure you wasnt also a member there, and just happen to see furanku also? :P

[NexAnima]

So being disabled, I should be banned for using macros to assist me?

Instead of relying on a labor intensive band-aid punishment approach to "ban all the bad guys", I suggested a much better "root cause" fix here:

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/5927-Macro-Philosophy


I didn't know your disability causes you to disappear from in front of the keyboard.

[Trak]

I didn't know your disability causes you to disappear from in front of the keyboard.

The rules are not limited to AFK use.

[NexAnima]

The rules are not limited to AFK use.

But clearly attended macroing is not the problem. Sure the rules state no 3rd party tools, but no one is going to get banned for being at the keyboard while macroing.

[Mactavendish]

Here... I'll say it again...

What WE think about macroers is not important. It is what the Developers of the game think that is important.

If what GuideRaguel said does not make it clear to you that macroing in any form is against the TOS, that folks caught macroing will get a 3 day ban, and that any guide NOT being neutral and immediately taking action against a macroer will be removed as a guide, then perhaps you will never get it.

AFK macroing or even running against a rock is just plain lazy and a cheap way to convince yourself that you are somehow superior. The reality is that as this game moves forward you will gain nothing at all. It's kinda like when a med student cheats his way through med school, and upon working for a hospital later, he gets his licence removed due to incompetence. That's all that macroing will really do for you... make you an incompetent cheat.

My scavenging is already 95 and it came from actually playing the game. I have never macroed nor will I ever, because i'm interested in PLAYING the game not letting my computer to play for me.

[Trak]

But clearly attended macroing is not the problem. Sure the rules state no 3rd party tools, but no one is going to get banned for being at the keyboard while macroing.

I agree on the first sentence and raise it with: Macroing is not a problem.

On your second sentence: I would see that in official writing before gambling on it.
And its not exactly out of the realm of possibilities to miss a guide writing you on top of that, if they were trying to establish if you were AFK.

[xaradt]

Devs, just make the game so we either get no benefit from macroing, or that we just don't need to, or that it's so hard to make a macro (or impossible using say Logitech KB's and gamepads) that it's not worth the hassle.

Also no more rollbacks would be nice, losing 12 hours of clicking manualy is enough to make anyone want to find an automated way to do it in the future.

[Sirius]

My hide is 5.

That's nice. Mine is 50. OPEN THREAD ANYONE?




AFK macroing or even running against a rock is just plain lazy and a cheap way to convince yourself that you are somehow superior. The reality is that as this game moves forward you will gain nothing at all. It's kinda like when a med student cheats his way through med school, and upon working for a hospital later, he gets his licence removed due to incompetence. That's all that macroing will really do for you... make you an incompetent cheat.

This is a terrible analogy. It's not like those who manually raise running have somehow developed "competence" at it. And no one's running against a rock to "convince themselves they are somehow superior". They're doing it because they want to advance their character abilities, because that's what you do in MMOs.




Those who are against macroing are usually folks who have plenty of free time to play and don't like the fact that those without as much time but are macroing are gaining the equal advantage they are getting.

This is a point worthy of attention. You could make a similar observation about the phenomenon of buying gold with real cash online. The flip side of it is that there has to be some correlation between player effort and character advancement. Unfortunately, I think the only simple way to genuinely eliminate this dilemma is to scale back the grind and make in-game wealth less meaningful.



So being disabled, I should be banned for using macros to assist me?

It might be interesting to investigate whether a blanket no-macro policy might be in violation of the Americans With Disabilities Act, 42 USC 12181 et seq. :)

[Trak]

Here... I'll say it again...

What WE think about macroers is not important. It is what the Developers of the game think that is important.


The developers being somewhat dependant on paying customers might make it somewhat important what the paying customers think about a partidular topic.



If what GuideRaguel said does not make it clear to you that macroing in any form is against the TOS, that folks caught macroing will get a 3 day ban, and that any guide NOT being neutral and immediately taking action against a macroer will be removed as a guide, then perhaps you will never get it.


Yeah, I think the ruling is pretty clear on that one. But not to all it appears.



AFK macroing or even running against a rock is just plain lazy and a cheap way to convince yourself that you are somehow superior.

Thats an assumption. Its a way to advance your character when you are not sitting in front of the computer. Thats all AFK macroing can generally be said to be.
How that makes people feel is probably quite varied.



The reality is that as this game moves forward you will gain nothing at all. It's kinda like when a med student cheats his way through med school, and upon working for a hospital later, he gets his licence removed due to incompetence. That's all that macroing will really do for you... make you an incompetent cheat.


Except in this case the actual learning has not taught you any true skill, even if done the approved way, with weapon skills perhaps being the odd exception.
Most likely if you are incompetent at skill level 0, you probably still will be at 100.
And for many of the skills, true skill does not even enter the picture. Its just a matter of access to a function.
And its not like your skill level is a diploma that gets you anything in the game that you don't have the true skill to extract with it yourself.
And if macroers do in fact end up so incompetent - whats the problem?
That analogy simply does not hold up.

Someone could buy a trained character tomorrow(if that was allowed that is) and be more competent with it than the person who trained it.



My scavenging is already 95 and it came from actually playing the game. I have never macroed nor will I ever, because i'm interested in PLAYING the game not letting my computer to play for me.

Yet it is fine to dictate how other players must interact with the game, even if they don't hack the client, sniff and decode the datastream or abuse glitches and bugs?
The definition of what constitutes playing a game is not so clear cut as laid out here.
If you drag a skill down to your hotbar and hit a number it is using a feature, but if you macro that number to click the skill in another position on the screen, you are cheating and not playing the game?

As it stands macroing in any shape or form is against the rules.

But that does not _necessarily_ mean that it is a bad idea to allow it.

[SlightlyEvil]

Yeah, but the funny thing is by the time anything is done, all the macroers will have their skills maxed and levels capped, so the only people being hurt are the legit players :-p

[Sirius]

And meanwhile, the only people who had the ability to control this from day 1 – in fact, the only people who have the ability to control this at all – are the devs. Sadly, they seem to have left a system in place that lets macro'ers get far ahead of the pack.

[niccoli00]

I think instead of macroing, people should hire someone from a third world country to level up their character while they sleep or work. That way you won't be having problems with the 3rd party applications part of the ToS, and you might be helping someone less fortunate than you financially.

[xyberviri]

It's really sad when people play dumb and act like they dont know what macroing in game like this is.

Everyone knows what a macroer is, its something that happens when your not sitting infront of your computer.

Macroing is not, rebinding keystrokes to your G13/15/11 or your Razor mouse, it is also not making a button on your mouse/keypad that move the mouse to X/y cordinates and clicks on something unless it does it with out you actually sitting there.

basically if some one can message you and you the person playing the game can not reply and something is happening on your screen your macroing. if your sitting there and you can reply back then your not. simple as can be

[ac1dtrip]

Maybe i'm a noob but i fail to see the use in macroing much more than saving from carpal tunnel when crafting. Stat raising seems to be slow as heck and the only useful items i've found are from scavaging which is done faster by not macroing in the first place. Worst case you got people who can i guess by fishing and placing points in skill be able to up their combat dmg which atm does nothing or craft more stuff which atm isn't a huge gain. So again the largest gain is from scavaging parts needed to craft with which is faster by not macroing.

If you have any rebuttle to this i'd love to hear it but real world scenario here not looking very viable to macro anyhow.

[niccoli00]

It's really sad when people play dumb and act like they dont know what macroing in game like this is.

Everyone knows what a macroer is, its something that happens when your not sitting infront of your computer.

Macroing is not, rebinding keystrokes to your G13/15/11 or your Razor mouse, it is also not making a button on your mouse/keypad that move the mouse to X/y cordinates and clicks on something unless it does it with out you actually sitting there.

basically if some one can message you and you the person playing the game can not reply and something is happening on your screen your macroing. if your sitting there and you can reply back then your not. simple as can be

LOL, so if you are sitting there it's not a macro, but if you leave it is.

A macro, by definition, repeats or performs an action without your need for activity. If you program your G key to run a series of keystrokes, that is a macro.

What you have defined is the difference between an afk macro vs. an attended macro.

[Sirius]

Well, actually someone macroing attended could easily miss a tell from a GM.

Actually, due to the utterly craptastic chat interface (want to read something that someone said 100 lines ago? you'll have to mouse-click 200 times) you could be sitting there playing live and miss a tell from a GM.

So there's really not a good way to tell whether someone is macroing just by sending them a tell.

I suspect this is part of the reason they say ALL macroing is forbidden (though I wonder how exactly they detect actual macroing).


Maybe i'm a noob but i fail to see the use in macroing much more than saving from carpal tunnel when crafting. Stat raising seems to be slow as heck and the only useful items i've found are from scavaging which is done faster by not macroing in the first place. Worst case you got people who can i guess by fishing and placing points in skill be able to up their combat dmg which atm does nothing or craft more stuff which atm isn't a huge gain. So again the largest gain is from scavaging parts needed to craft with which is faster by not macroing.

If you have any rebuttle to this i'd love to hear it but real world scenario here not looking very viable to macro anyhow.

People can use macro's to raise skills that they would otherwise have to dump points into. Many of those skills are so ridiculously slow to raise without dumping points that only macro'ers can do it. Hence macro'ers can easily attain higher skill levels than straight players.

[Jadzia]

I think instead of macroing, people should hire someone from a third world country to level up their character while they sleep or work. That way you won't be having problems with the 3rd party applications part of the ToS, and you might be helping someone less fortunate than you financially.

LOL don't give them ideas :p

[ac1dtrip]

Well, actually someone macroing attended could easily miss a tell from a GM.

Actually, due to the utterly craptastic chat interface (want to read something that someone said 100 lines ago? you'll have to mouse-click 200 times) you could be sitting there playing live and miss a tell from a GM.

So there's really not a good way to tell whether someone is macroing just by sending them a tell.

I suspect this is part of the reason they say ALL macroing is forbidden (though I wonder how exactly they detect actual macroing).



People can use macro's to raise skills that they would otherwise have to dump points into. Many of those skills are so ridiculously slow to raise without dumping points that only macro'ers can do it. Hence macro'ers can easily attain higher skill levels than straight players.

Well honestly once your points in a skill are upto i think 30 it takes more points to raise like 2-3 or sometimes 4 which escalates as it gets higher. Once you are upto about 30 the fastest way is to actually craft. Also when crafting the macro that people would have to make would be very complex and have to be attended because you run out of crafting resources very fast. So yes maybe they will be able to get to 30 in each skill macroing faster but again not much of a gain and anyone actually crafting not using a macro unless it's highly advanced isn't going to get much gain again. If any of my information is not correct aka skill gains and such please let me know.


Sorry for my walls of text my grammar and paragraph editing is horrible i know.

[niccoli00]

Maybe i'm a noob but i fail to see the use in macroing much more than saving from carpal tunnel when crafting. Stat raising seems to be slow as heck and the only useful items i've found are from scavaging which is done faster by not macroing in the first place. Worst case you got people who can i guess by fishing and placing points in skill be able to up their combat dmg which atm does nothing or craft more stuff which atm isn't a huge gain. So again the largest gain is from scavaging parts needed to craft with which is faster by not macroing.

If you have any rebuttle to this i'd love to hear it but real world scenario here not looking very viable to macro anyhow.

You've pretty much got it. IF caps were in I think it would be even less of an issue, but honestly I don't think they are in.

Of course, macroers will 1 shot you apparently, steal all of your stuff and destroy your totem.

[ac1dtrip]

You've pretty much got it. IF caps were in I think it would be even less of an issue, but honestly I don't think they are in.

Of course, macroers will 1 shot you apparently, steal all of your stuff and destroy your totem.

ROFL last i checked PO weapons are still one of the most powerful some crafted weapons are a little better but it's pretty much all 2-3 hits with the best weapons and most pkrs are close to naked since it keeps em moving faster. Also take all your stuff really? BINs are locked..they took your crafted armor ugh that sucks back to scavaging for more stuff i guess then? Sorry for the sarcasm I must admit i haven't had too much problem with pks yet though.

Just so you all don't think i'm some DB hopefully, I'm not all for macroing and if there is a gain from it i'm all for being against it just atm i don't see the gain.

[xyberviri]

LOL, so if you are sitting there it's not a macro, but if you leave it is.

A macro, by definition, repeats or performs an action without your need for activity. If you program your G key to run a series of keystrokes, that is a macro.

What you have defined is the difference between an afk macro vs. an attended macro.


66. The use of macroing or other automated key and mouse-clicking programs, services, or hardware that allows a person to perform actions in the game while not touching the keyboard or mouse is prohibited.

So a running macro is bad, one that you have to hit a key to start and then have to hit again isn't most people already do this for fishing i put the action in slot 3 and just hit it while watching netflix or talking in vent.

[joexxxz]

I think instead of macroing, people should hire someone from a third world country to level up their character while they sleep or work. That way you won't be having problems with the 3rd party applications part of the ToS, and you might be helping someone less fortunate than you financially.

You can prevent that too, its called IP

[Sirius]

Well honestly once your points in a skill are upto i think 30 it takes more points to raise like 2-3 or sometimes 4 which escalates as it gets higher. Once you are upto about 30 the fastest way is to actually craft. Also when crafting the macro that people would have to make would be very complex and have to be attended because you run out of crafting resources very fast. So yes maybe they will be able to get to 30 in each skill macroing faster but again not much of a gain and anyone actually crafting not using a macro unless it's highly advanced isn't going to get much gain again. If any of my information is not correct aka skill gains and such please let me know.


Sorry for my walls of text my grammar and paragraph editing is horrible i know.

You're totally misunderstanding the point. People using macros can raise skills WITHOUT DUMPING POINTS into them, in ways that non-macro'ers cannot (because they're unplayably boring... e.g. hiding). Hence macro'ers can easily attain higher skill levels than straight players.


You can prevent that too, its called IP

I assume you're talking about IP bans?

First, how are they going to determine who's "playing for pay" vs. who's "playing for real"? If they can't do that, they don't know who to ban. And I highly doubt they're going to ban whole blocks of IPs so that entire countries are unable to connect to Xsyon.

Second, one word: proxy.

[ac1dtrip]

You're totally misunderstanding the point. People using macros can raise skills WITHOUT DUMPING POINTS into them, in ways that non-macro'ers cannot (because they're unplayably boring... e.g. hiding). Hence macro'ers can easily attain higher skill levels than straight players.

I understand they can raise skills without dumping points. To do that, only thing that wouldn't require a pretty complex macro to skill up, would be fishing and hiding. Crafting would take very complex macros which yes people might be able to make but it's going to take a lot of work with how the game is made.

Also dumping points like i stated earlier is only going to get small gains of upto 30 points otherwise it's pretty much useless to dump the points in since it takes increasing amounts to equal a point once the skill is past 30.

Maybe i'm not explaining myself well enough i don't know.


EDIT:: ((Oh well i'm just repeating myself here.))

[niccoli00]

I assume you're talking about IP bans?

First, how are they going to determine who's "playing for pay" vs. who's "playing for real"? If they can't do that, they don't know who to ban. And I highly doubt they're going to ban whole blocks of IPs so that entire countries are unable to connect to Xsyon.

Second, one word: proxy.

Honestly you should just ignore Joexxxxxxxxxx as I think he's either:

A. trolling.
B. not the brightest bulb in the box.

[joexxxz]

Honestly you should just ignore Joexxxxxxxxxx as I think he's either:

A. trolling.
B. not the brightest bulb in the box.

Well let me tell you something. When the player first time registers into the game, you can save the regional information about the player, if suddenly someone else is playing this account in a different country, block it.

You think it might not work?

So u saying there is no way to find out what IP sections belong to what region?

The question was if someone else is playing for u in a different country.... hello

[Belight]

Well let me tell you something. When the player first time registers into the game, you can save the regional information about the player, if suddenly someone else is playing this account in a different country, block it.

You think it might not work?

So u saying there is no way to find out what IP sections belong to what region?

The question was if someone else is playing for u in a different country.... hello

So if I go on vacation to another country and decide to play Xsyon I'll get banned? Sounds reasonable!

How about we stop dreaming up prison solutions and ways to punish one another and actually dream up some good and creative game designs that would stop macroing at it's source?! You know, something every dev should do in the initial concepts of their games?

No? Ok... BAN HAMMER FOR EVERYONE! FUCK THE MONEY YOU PAYED!

[Andius]

I think macroers should be dealt with as follows:

Skill grinding macroers:

1st time: Warning, and loss of skill points.

2nd time: Warning, loss of all skills, and 1 week ban.

3rd time: Account deletion

Resource gathering macros:

1st time: Account deletion

If these were actually enforced, macro problem would = almost non-issue.

[joexxxz]

So if I go on vacation to another country and decide to paly Xsyon I'll get banned?

How about we stop dreaming up prison solutions and ways to punish one another and actually dream up some good and crative game designs that would stop macroing at it's source?!

Two weeks, its not allot. And if you playing on your vacation in a different country, then no one should play at home. Now dont tell me that your little brother is playing at home too, using your account and you playing also from your vacation somewhere in africa. lol

And if you little brother is playing for u, its then samething as someone else is playing for u in a different country, one difference is you paying to them. Anything else???

[Belight]

Two weeks, its not allot. And if you playing on your vacation in a different country, then no one should play at home. Now dont tell me that your little brother is playing at home too, using your account and you playing also from your vacation somewhere in africa. lol

And if you little brother is playing for u, its then samething as someone else is playing for u in a different country, one difference is you paying to them. Anything else???

So now you're telling me how I'm allowed to spend my vacation time? !Your deciding rather my family can play on my account?! Go fuck yourself.

And the rest of your paragraph isn't even coherent...

Added after 5 minutes:


I think macroers should be dealt with as follows:

Skill grinding macroers:

1st time: Warning, and loss of skill points.

2nd time: Warning, loss of all skills, and 1 week ban.

3rd time: Account deletion

Resource gathering macros:

1st time: Account deletion

If these were actually enforced, macro problem would = almost non-issue.

Yeah, the same way the war on drugs has eleminated drug usage in America? Lets not kid ourselves...

[dxwarlock]

Yeah, the same way the war on drugs has eleminated drug usage in America? Lets not kid ourselves...

works better than ignoring the problem as unsolvable..may not be the best approach, but both your and his example are better than standing idle and throwing your hands up in the air :)

[Belight]

works better than ignoring the problem as unsolvable..may not be the best approach, but both your and his example are better than standing idle and throwing your hands up in the air :)

In both cases (Drugs and Macroing), I assure you that treating people like criminals and punishing them is not a good solution. These solutions are labor intensive and do not address the root cause, therefoer will never illiminate it.

Education, creative thinking, understanding... Those are the things that will resolve most any issue.

My solution is not to accept macroing, but rather to understand it, to understand it's reason and cause and to address those accordingly. I.E. designing well thought out game mecahnics that discourage the need for macroing.

[dxwarlock]

In both cases (Drugs and Macroing), I assure you that treating people like criminals and punishing them is not a good solution. These solutions are labor intensive and does not address the root cause, therefoer will never illiminate it.

Education, creative thinking, understanding... Those are the things that will resolve most any issue.

My solution is not to accept macroing, but rather to understand it, to understand it's reason and cause and to address those accordingly. I.E. designing well thought out game mechanics that discourage the need for macroing.

but its a game, as apposed to real life where consequences effect the person on a level that effects them personally...ANY game thats online with a basis of "i need to be a hair better than the other guy" will have macroers, 'fun gameplay or not. someone will sacrifice the fun gameplay for the ability to do it longer by automation. design a game that discourages the need for macroing, and you've removed the core items that draw the other playerbase that feels the "effort vs reward" aspect of the game is the reason to play.

and marco's reason and cause are easy..someone wanting the gain of effort without the effort. there is nothing to understand on a deep seated level of why they do it as compared to selling drugs, doing drugs, or being a drug runner.

you envision both ingame and life reactions to bad events in a Utopian setting where all things can be solved by understanding and encouragement to promote the 'right thing to do'.

mankind as a whole follow the same rules as electrons..take the path of least resistance for the most output gain available. proof in point. you yourself may not macro, but if your grinding tools to level, will you take the "5 parts and a scavanged item" path to grinding..for the challenge? or the ones that needs one plastic and a knife.

macroers just have a larger and wider view on whats moral for "path of least resistance" for them.

no amount of changing the gameplay in a game that boils down to time invested (to keep subs as they need more time to play to gain more ingame) and encouraging those doing wrong to do right will stop them.

[Sirius]

designing well thought out game mecahnics that discourage the need for macroing.

That's a concept that is very unpopular around these forums.

[ifireallymust]

That's a concept that is very unpopular around these forums.

I ignore this argument because I believe that any game with any type of time-based skill progression will attract some players who will macro if they can get away with it. It doesn't matter to them how engaging an activity is, they're not playing to have fun anyway, they're playing to 'win'. To have the best character first. Add to that people who macro up characters for ebay and to farm, and just about every game will have macroers.

We already know there are macroers scavenging. Scavenging takes time. We know there are macroers sorting. Sorting takes time. Describe for me a scavenge and sort feature that would discourage macroing. The same people who are upset that more junk piles were added to the game would be furious if we could all instantly scavenge up and sort out what we need with a single click.

[Sirius]

I'm not saying it's a cure-all.

But don't you think there are at least a few design opportunities to make macroing both more difficult and more pointless?

[Belight]

Dwarlock I don't entirely disagree with you. I've discussed this in another thread here.

Lets take fishing as an example. Instead of click.... Wait.... Click....

Why not click... use move controls to jerk the rod, temp the fish, etc... Then upon a randomly timed bite you have to click and do a command to real teh fish in. Bam! Fishing is now more fun, interactive, and does not easily allow macroing.

[ifireallymust]

I'm not saying it's a cure-all.

But don't you think there are at least a few design opportunities to make macroing both more difficult and more pointless?

Such as Belight's fishing suggestion, sure there are. Nothing wrong with wanting features like that. It won't stop the dedicated macroers, but I won't argue it would be more entertaining for those of us who don't macro.

But meanwhile, macroers shouldn't be allowed to get away with breaking the ToS to their advantage and using the current game mechanics as an excuse.

In other words, "I only killed him because he really pissed me off, officer, he shouldn't ought to have said that about my mother," isn't a murder defense.

[joexxxz]

works better than ignoring the problem as unsolvable..may not be the best approach, but both your and his example are better than standing idle and throwing your hands up in the air :)

Thank you. He is saying something like this.
Hello doctor i came to get a vaccine from the infection i got here.
Doctor: Ok we need to give you a shot against the virus.
Belight : O no, doctor please i'm scared of needles.
Doctor: Well do u want to be cured or not.
Belight : Doctor stfup, im scared of needles.
lol
So what is better to have an infection, or just one poke in an ass.
He want solutions, but dont want to inforce the solution.???

So he wants one person to have all the freedom, and rest suffer from macroers... haha
really clever.

[Sirius]

Such as Belight's fishing suggestion, sure there are. Nothing wrong with wanting features like that. It won't stop the dedicated macroers, but I won't argue it would be more entertaining for those of us who don't macro.

But meanwhile, macroers shouldn't be allowed to get away with breaking the ToS to their advantage and using the current game mechanics as an excuse.

In other words, "I only killed him because he really pissed me off, officer, he shouldn't ought to have said that about my mother," isn't a murder defense.

But here's the thing. Macro'ers are not getting away with anything because they have a good "excuse". They get away with it because the devs simply can't enforce the TOS. That's probably not going to change.

That's why I'm saying, if you can't FORCE macro'ers to stop, you have to at least try something. And getting them to stop voluntarily because it's too difficult or is not worth the reward is the best way to do that.

Destroy the incentive, and you will stop the activity.

[Belight]

Thank you. He is saying something like this.
Hello doctor i came to get a vaccine from the infection i got here.
Doctor: Ok we need to give you a shot against the virus.
Belight : O no, doctor please i'm scared of needles.
Doctor: Well do u want to be cured or not.
Belight : Doctor stfup, im scared of needles.
lol
So what is better to have an infection, or just one poke in an ass.
He want solutions, but dont want to inforce the solution.???

So he wants one person to have all the freedom, and rest suffer from macroers... haha
really clever.

......That's actually not anything like what I have suggested anywhere on these forums....

A more realistic example of my argument here would be:

Belight: Doctor, I have an infection.
Doctor: Well lets cut your arm off!
Belight: Well maybe it would be better to give me some antibiotics that address the real problem and wont impact my life?
Doctor: NOOOO! IT'S THE ONLY WAY! *WACK*



You see, I'm arguing that it's a rediculous concept to expect the devs to create a police force to hunt down and punish their player base. People who, mind you, payed for teh game, use it for entertainment, and in all other aspects of life may be compeltely honest and functioning members of society who don't deserve to lose their hard earned money.

I think the dev's time and money would be better spent creating fun and creative game designs that remove the need and ability to macro. Is that so crazy?

[xyberviri]

works better than ignoring the problem as unsolvable..may not be the best approach, but both your and his example are better than standing idle and throwing your hands up in the air :)

I hate to say it but after like 5 years SoE lets people AFK Macro so long as they use the in game macro system

Im not suggesting that we let macro people macro, just wanted to mention its a problem and some companies eventually cave. even big ones like SoE

[ifireallymust]

But here's the thing. Macro'ers are not getting away with anything because they have a good "excuse". They get away with it because the devs simply can't enforce the TOS. That's probably not going to change.

That's why I'm saying, if you can't FORCE macro'ers to stop, you have to at least try something. And getting them to stop voluntarily because it's too difficult or is not worth the reward is the best way to do that.

Destroy the incentive, and you will stop the activity.

Pretty sure they can enforce it in most cases. The most blatant cases, anyway. Whether they will or not is up to them. Meanwhile, I detest macroers and I don't accept any of the excuses they try to make. None of them excuse cheating.

[joexxxz]

In both cases (Drugs and Macroing)...My solution is not to accept macroing, but rather to understand it, to understand it's reason and cause and to address those accordingly. I.E. designing well thought out game mecahnics that discourage the need for macroing.

Good point on this +1 ;)


Dwarlock I don't entirely disagree with you. I've discussed this in another thread here.

Lets take fishing as an example. Instead of click.... Wait.... Click....

Why not click... use move controls to jerk the rod, temp the fish, etc... Then upon a randomly timed bite you have to click and do a command to real teh fish in. Bam! Fishing is now more fun, interactive, and does not easily allow macroing.

That will eliminate allot of players from fish macroing. Good one +1 ;)

[Belight]

Pretty sure they can enforce it in most cases. The most blatant cases, anyway. Whether they will or not is up to them. Meanwhile, I detest macroers and I don't accept any of the excuses they try to make. None of them excuse cheating.

You know, most the posts I see from you are hostile attempts at punishing and eliminating people with playstyles you don't agree with. Hate the griefer, hate the PVPer, hate the macroer, and so on...

I think you need to let love into your heart and get this video game fueled hatred out. You seem bitter and upset. Try some compashion and understanding....

[ifireallymust]

You know, most the posts I see from you are hostile attempts at punishing people with playstyles you don't agree with. Hate the griefer, hate the PVPer, hate the macroers, and so on...

I think you need to let love into your heart and get this video game fueled hatred out. You seem bitter and upset. Try some compashion and understanding....

Why would I have any compassion for someone who is not following game rules? Give me one good reason to. If you were hungry, I wouldn't blame you for stealing, and I'd probably feed you if I could. But this is a game. There is no real life at stake. You aren't macroing to feed your family, are you? So don't even try the 'compassion' angle. There is no reason to have compassion for someone who cheats in a game. It's pretty pathetic, really.

I'm not even remotely bitter or upset, in fact, the macroers don't currently even affect me, because I avoid pvp. Later on their cheating might, however. And I bet a lot of people who are more interested in pvp than I am and who don't macro aren't real fond of the idea of losing to cheaters.

[Belight]

Good point on this +1 ;)



That will eliminate allot of players from fish macroing. Good one +1 ;)

Why, thank you, good Sir! I personally do not macro, ever, not even in DarkFall. Though I completely understand why people do. It's not fun to click the same button over and over for a shallow and half assed harvesting system. it's also boring to get your skill maxed by shooting 500,000 mana missles. And so on and so forth.

These designs cause me to quit games, where other people will just resort to macroing, and others still somehow stick it out and manually grind through these crappy game systems.

I don't think any of these people should ever be punished for their chosen response to the game systems. Instead I think we need to up the standards of these features and use macroing as a way to identify poorly designed systems.


Why would I have any compassion for someone who is not following game rules? Give me one good reason to.

Because compassion, understanding, and creative thinking will always be a more efficient tool for change than hatred, condemnation, and punishment?


There is no reason to have compassion for someone who cheats in a game. It's pretty pathetic, really.

So we should instead sweep the issue under the rug and just ban players? Why not look at why players macro, where they macro, what kind of games they macro in, and find the weak points in the games we play and improve those points?

When having compassion and understanding for something you don't agree with yourself, you can gain perspective and see more ends to the issue. It gives you tools, and when you combine tools with creative thinking, the options become limitless and we don't have to resort to primative solutions like punishment.

[d3m0nd0]

Fu found a solution, he stoped using macros and went on a cheat site to have hacks made. See no more macro!

[ifireallymust]

Why, thank you, good Sir! I personally do not macro, ever, not even in DarkFall. Though I completely understand why people do. It's not fun to click the same button over and over for a shallow and half assed harvesting system. it's also boring to get your skill maxed by shooting 500,000 mana missles. And so on and so forth.

These designs cause me to quit games, where other people will just resort to macroing, and others still somehow stick it out and manually grind through these crappy game systems.

I don't think any of these people should ever be punished for their chosen response to the game systems. Instead I think we need to up the standards of these features and use macroing as a way to identify poorly designed systems.



Because compassion, understanding, and creative thinking will always be a more efficient tool for change than hatred, condemnation, and punishment?



So we should instead sweep the issue under the rug and just ban players? Why not look at why players macro, where they macro, what kind of games they macro in, and find the weak points in the games we play and improve those points?

When having compassion and understanding for something you don't agree with yourself, you can gain perspective and see more ends to the issue. It gives you tools, and when you combine tools with creative thinking, the options become limitless and we don't have to resort to primative solutions like punishment.

Compassion without logic is probably one of the most dangerous traits our species possesses.

You won't get developers to 'fix' their games by calling for them to keep macroing against the rules yet not punish the rule breakers. All that will do is cause rule followers to quit.

If the game has something wrong with it, you tell the developers what you think is wrong. If that doesn't change anything, you stop playing. Go outside, feed the hungry or something. Talk with your wallet, in other words.

What do you think the majority of the community's response would be if tomorrow it was announced that macros are allowed, and a thread providing helpful tips on how to macro was given?

[d3m0nd0]

Compassion without logic is probably one of the most dangerous traits our species possesses.

You won't get developers to 'fix' their games by calling for them to keep macroing against the rules yet not punish the rule breakers. All that will do is cause rule followers to quit.

If the game has something wrong with it, you tell the developers what you think is wrong. If that doesn't change anything, you stop playing. Go outside, feed the hungry or something. Talk with your wallet, in other words.

What do you think the majority of the community's response would be if tomorrow it was announced that macros are allowed, and a thread providing helpful tips on how to macro was given?

Bill Gates Will Finnally Complete His Goal Of World Domination? *shrug*

[Belight]

Compassion without logic is probably one of the most dangerous traits our species possesses.

Lol, please elaborate, because personally I think you are completely full of shit.

[joexxxz]

Lol, please elaborate, because personally I think you are completely full of shit.

Well Belight i think he (d3m0nd0) is right on that one. You have to have logic to your compassion. We the human race can understand math, science, anything to do with material world, but when it comes to spiritual, we stumble on that. Thats my point.

[ifireallymust]

Lol, please elaborate, because personally I think you are completely full of shit.

I'm sorry, I missed your ex- justi- I mean your reasoning behind your logic. How is failing to punish macroing while keeping macroing against the rules good for gaming? How will asking that macroers not be punished for breaking the rules improve a game's features?

Or is it that you think macroing should not be against the rules in Xsyon? If that is the case, kindly describe what you think the reaction of the majority of the playerbase would be if macroing were allowed in this game? Would most players be happy about that, do you think?

[Belight]

I'm sorry, I missed your ex- justi- I mean your reasoning behind your logic. How is failing to punish macroing while keeping macroing against the rules good for gaming? How will asking that macroers not be punished for breaking the rules improve a game's features?

Or is it that you think macroing should not be against the rules in Xsyon? If that is the case, kindly describe what you think the reaction of the majority of the playerbase would be if macroing were allowed in this game? Would most players be happy about that, do you think?

I'm sorry, I'm refering specifically to your "Compassion without logic" statement that I think is just completely asenine.

[ifireallymust]

I'm sorry, I'm refering specifically to your "Compassion without logic" statement that I think is just completely asenine.

I'm sorry, but you have yet to show any logic in your argument against punishing macroers. You are simply making personal attacks now. Please try to answer the questions. I don't think they're difficult.

[Sirius]

Pretty sure they can enforce it in most cases. The most blatant cases, anyway.

How do we have people with 90+ hiding then? Do you really think the devs are sitting on their hands because they're afraid to ban people? Myself, I think it's because they don't have the capability or resources do enforce the ban.

[mrcalhou]

Compassion without logic is probably one of the most dangerous traits our species possesses.

You know, in a way I have to agree with you. Compassion is a good thing. Even a great thing. But in the absence of logical guidance it can be a really bad thing in the long-term. Like all the government funded housing programs and welfare. It's great that the United States feels the need to take care of all of its citizens, and even humans in general. But people are taking advantage of these programs and many of the children I teach think that everything must be handed to them. The work ethic is crap because there are few consequences to being lazy.

But logic without compassion can be just as dangerous.

[Belight]

I think anything without logic is dangerous.

But to say "Compassion without logic is probably one of the most dangerous traits our species possesses." while offering only condemnation without logic is just absurd.

And to say my arguments have lacked in logic is also pretty silly. I've done my best to offer nothing but well thought out solutions and features. I'd say I've brought alot more to the table than the people who's solutions run no deeper than "Ban the cheaters!".

Which is more logical?

A. Creating a police force for a video game that must be paid a salary while operating for the duration of the game's life, they also must research issues, send out e-mails, double research issues of dispute, while requiring many people and tons of man hours to ban accounts and reduce their own income.

B. Some development time and one patch that fixes the game feature(s) so it is not macro friendly.

[ifireallymust]

How do we have people with 90+ hiding then? Do you really think the devs are sitting on their hands because they're afraid to ban people? Myself, I think it's because they don't have the capability or resources do enforce the ban.

Know what, I shouldn't even have gone there. I'm not going to speculate anymore on what has been done or what will be done about the problem. I don't have the information, and it's not my decision to make. I'm going to keep this to debating players who want macroing to either be allowed, or to stay against the rules yet be tolerated by Notorious Games. I want to know which players think macroing should no longer be against the ToS and which ones want it to stay against the rules but without any consequences for those who violate the rules. Because without even knowing who is who, how can the issue be debated? It's two separate issues!


I think anything without logic is dangerous.

But to say "Compassion without logic is probably one of the most dangerous traits our species possesses." while offering only condemnation without logic is just absurd.

And to say my arguments have lacked in logic is also pretty silly. I've dont my best to offer nothing but well thought out solutions, features, and logic.

Which pro-macroer are you? Are you someone who wants macroing to not be against the rules, or are you someone who wants it to stay against the rules, but without punishment for the rule breakers?

[Belight]

Which pro-macroer are you? Are you someone who wants macroing to not be against the rules, or are you someone who wants it to stay against the rules, but without punishment for the rule breakers?

Do you even read before posting? It's like I'm talking to a wall. I'm not really one to resort to personal assaults in a debate, but I feel like it's a waste of my time to even type out responses to you.

You say I'm avoiding your questions, but why should I answer them? You wont make any attempts to comprehend or relate to them, you'll simply latch on to something I said and try to twist it to suit your one sided argument.

[ifireallymust]

Do you even read before posting? I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

Which was that, then? Are you someone who wants macroing to not be against the rules, or are you someone who wants it to stay against the rules, but without punishment for the rule breakers? Which is it. I'm slow, indulge me by answering.

[Atmos]

Which was that, then? Are you someone who wants macroing to not be against the rules, or are you someone who wants it to stay against the rules, but without punishment for the rule breakers? Which is it. I'm slow, indulge me by answering.

He's the one that wants the game to not encourage macros because of poor mechanic design. 333333333333.

[Belight]

Which was that, then? Are you someone who wants macroing to not be against the rules, or are you someone who wants it to stay against the rules, but without punishment for the rule breakers? Which is it. I'm slow, indulge me by answering.

If you want my answer then you can re-read this thread. I've told you the same concepts over and over, it's not my fault you can't proccess them or comprehend a viewpoint other than your own.

[ifireallymust]

He's the one that wants the game to not encourage macros because of poor mechanic design. 333333333333.

That is a separate issue and has nothing to do with the three actual possibilities that currently exist for the macroing problem, which are as follows:

1. Macros should be allowed in Xsyon.

2. Macros should not be allowed yet there should be no punishment for those who macro.

3 Macros should not be allowed and macroers should be punished.

[Belight]

That is a separate issue and has nothing to do with the three actual possibilities that currently exist for the macroing problem, which are as follows:

1. Macros should be allowed in Xsyon.

2. Macros should not be allowed yet there should be no punishment for those who macro.

3 Macros should not be allowed and macroers should be punished.

You see, this is your problem... You can only think of three "solutions".

I can think of hundreds, and most don't involve wasting dev's time and money and punishing people who are here to PLAY A GAME. The world (Even a game world) isn't black and white. Just because you can't think of solutions doesn't mean they don't exist.

Obviously your thought process can't move beyond this, so I'm done spinning my wheels on you.

[Atmos]

You're right. Don't worry about the foundation of the problem, worry about the people that are writing with crayon on the walls...that are crumbling.

Why are you macroing?
Because i have to press "3" a million times.
Why?
Because that is how you level hide.
Why?
I don't know, because that's the way the game works.
Why?
I told you. I don't know. That's just how the devs thought it would make the most sense to do it.
Why?
I DONT KNOW. GO !@#$%@ YOURSELF!!
Why?
BECAUSE I CAN'T ANSWER YOUR QUESTION!!
Why? All I wanted to know was why you were macroing...

[d3m0nd0]

Best way to kill a snake is to cut off its head. Fix the game mechanic that allows macros to be used in the first place, then punish the ones that were obvious macroing. How? Improve the mechanic so its more complex than a macro can be made easily, while keeping the interface userfriendly. Then, log all those macro'ers who have been using macro's but take no direct action, let them macro even more infact, once the mechanic is fix'd, take all the people who have been caught/reported, and confirmed to be macroing, and rape there stats/skills. Though personally... I think the skills that are being macro'd have no real advantage to maxing most of them anyway. Most seem broken infact.

[ifireallymust]

You see, this is your problem... You can only think of three "solutions".

I can think of hundreds, and most don't involve wasting dev's time and money and punishing people who are here to PLAY A GAME.

You can't think of hundreds that are currently available, however. Currently, only 3 possible solutions exist. Make it not against the rules. Keep it against the rules but don't punish the rule breakers. Keep it against the rules and punish the rule breakers. I just want to know which of those 3 currently available solutions you support.

[mrcalhou]

You see, this is your problem... You can only think of three "solutions".

I can think of hundreds, and most don't involve wasting dev's time and money and punishing people who are here to PLAY A GAME. The world (Even a game world) isn't black and white. Just because you can't think of solutions doesn't mean they don't exist.

Obviously your thought process can't move beyond this, so I'm done spinning my wheels on you.


You're right. Don't worry about the foundation of the problem, worry about the people that are writing with crayon on the walls...that are crumbling.

^^^^^^ +2/2

[Atmos]

Why are you macroing?
Because i have to press "3" a million times.
Why?
Because that is how you level hide.
Why?
I don't know, because that's the way the game works.
Why?
I told you. I don't know. That's just how the devs thought it would make the most sense to do it.
Why?
I DONT KNOW. GO !@#$%@ YOURSELF!!
Why?
BECAUSE I CAN'T ANSWER YOUR QUESTION!!
Why? All I wanted to know was why you were macroing...

[mrcalhou]

You can't think of hundreds that are currently available, however. Currently, only 3 possible solutions exist. Make it not against the rules. Keep it against the rules but don't punish the rule breakers. Keep it against the rules and punish the rule breakers. I just want to know which of those 3 currently available solutions you support.

Changing the mechanics IS a currently available solution. And a much better solution than your three.

[ifireallymust]

Changing the mechanics IS a currently available solution. And a much better solution than your three.

Oh really? The game can be taken down right this second and instantly anti-macroing solutions can be implemented?

Well, I'm all for it, then!

But really, not true.

[Belight]

Lol, why do I feel like I'm getting trolled?

I hope my MH pals don't see this thread. I'll lose a lot of troll street cred...

[Dirt]

Don't try and justify your 3rd party programs until your surrounded by a bunch of kids who dont know any better. They will hear what you say and some will even try and do what macroers do and voila, we've created some more retards to stink up the forums. OR, phone your mom (if shes still alive) and ask her if she brought up a cheater, ask her if she thinks she did a good job raising her little macroer/hack , ask her if shes proud of your macroing abilities, your inability to play fairly. Say hi for me, thanks.

[Brutix]

OP is wrong, you can't expect the community to police themselves. Change the game mechanics FFS, we saw these stupid progression bar crafting in almost every MMO out there. I don't macro but I don't want to play this game either, once my subscription runs out, I'm done. No matter how polished this game gets I think it's doomed to fail because their seems to be nothing original or innovative about it.

[ifireallymust]

Changing the mechanics IS a currently available solution. And a much better solution than your three.

Actually, we could add yours as a fourth suggestion-

4. Take the servers down until anti-macroing techniques are implemented. Then bring the servers back up.

So, would you like to grant amnesty to all who macroed prior to the implementation, or would you like to see them punished? And after anti-macroing is implemented, what should be done with players who continue to find ways to macro regardless?

[ifireallymust]

I think they should be rewarded for their undaunted determination. Perhaps they could work with the Xsyon dev team to create an in-game item of their choosing?

Interesting. So, Illmaculate, do you see macroing being against the rules as a desirable state of affairs that weeds out those who would otherwise macro but are not sufficiently undaunted and determined to deserve the rewards macroing grants?

[Belight]

Actually, we could add yours as a fourth suggestion-

4. Take the servers down until anti-macroing techniques are implemented. Then bring the servers back up.

So, would you like to grant amnesty to all who macroed prior to the implementation, or would you like to see them punished? And after anti-macroing is implemented, what should be done with players who continue to find ways to macro regardless?

Hahaha, geeze, I'm sorry but you are just making yourself look more and more mindless and one-tracked. I guess it is entertaining though....

Holy fuck, you have 800 posts in one to one and a half months?! Oh lord, no wonder! It must be demanding to pump out that many posts, I guess I wouldn't put much thought into them either if I made that many. I'm starting to think you must use macros to troll that much....

[taurus1877]

Yes, highly entertaining. Please proceed. :)

[ifireallymust]

No, because the game is mindnumbingly boring.

Ah well, and I thought we were finally getting down to specifics on the issue at hand. Oh well. It seems I'll get nothing for my troubles here but trolling and vague justifications and excuses for why people should be able to cheat in a game and get away with it.

[Belight]

Ah well, and I thought we were finally getting down to specifics on the issue at hand. Oh well. It seems I'll get nothing for my troubles here but trolling and vague justifications and excuses for why people should be able to cheat in a game and get away with it.

Yeah, because no one here mentioned any solutions or ideas and had nothing intelligent to discuss. :rolleyes:

[Dade512]

No, because the game is mindnumbingly boring.

Then why play at all in the first place?

[mrcalhou]

Oh really? The game can be taken down right this second and instantly anti-macroing solutions can be implemented?

Well, I'm all for it, then!

But really, not true.

Instantly? No of course not. How did you get instant out of what I said? Actually, I think you are demonstrating a problem that plagues our society. I know I see it a lot with my students. If it's not "now" then there's not reason to even bother.

[ifireallymust]

Instantly? No of course not. How did you get instant out of what I said? Actually, I think you are demonstrating a problem that plagues our society. I know I see it a lot with my students. If it's not "now" then there's not reason to even bother.

So until it's fixed, what should be done about macroing? Which of the 3 options do you promote? Or do you want the server taken down until it is fixed?

[Jadzia]

Instantly? No of course not. How did you get instant out of what I said? Actually, I think you are demonstrating a problem that plagues our society. I know I see it a lot with my students. If it's not "now" then there's not reason to even bother.

You are right, a long term solution is welcomed. But we need something that solves the problem till this long term solution gets implemented. Something for NOW.

Side note: I like your new sig, Illmaculate :)

[Belight]

So until it's fixed, what should be done about macroing? Which of the 3 options do you promote? Or do you want the server taken down until it is fixed?

Personally, I'd like all 7 or so of the devs to completely hault development so that they can catch all the bad guys!

You guys act like the world is ending becasue some people macro.

The game is barely playable. The devs need to put their attention into fixing the vitals. Then they can hopefully flesh out and improve their features and get the skill cap/decay in and if they are smart, they will do this in a way that restricts the ability to macro.

They certainly don't need to be dumping money and man power into reducing their subscriber base.... Thus I do not agree with OP that policing is the best way to stop macroing. To be honest, it should have been addressed in the game's initial concepts, then there wouldn't be an issue now but it seems it wasn't, so my opinion is that the devs best bet moving forward is to safe guard their current game systems and get creative with their upcoming ones.

[ifireallymust]

Personally, I'd like all 7 or so of the devs to completely hault development so that they can catch all the bad guys!

I'm sorry, you had your chance to be taken seriously.

[Dirt]

Is this intelligent? .... Push button 3 one time only and watch your skill maximize in front of your eyes!.......
Could we have this implemented please because im bored and spent my whole allowance on this dumb crafting game. Sounds reasonable to me. Oh, and take away safezones.
I'm used to getting everything i want right friggin now and i bought this cool keyboard where i can play my game still after bedtime and mom does'nt even know! LOL!!!!!!!! I'm level 98 and you guys suk! LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Shoulda seen how tough i was in Darkfall, you pansies SUK!!! This game suks!!!!! LOLOL.....!!!!!
I gotta stay off these forums, man. You guys might check out WWIIonline forums, those people set a great example over there.

[Belight]

I'm sorry, you had your chance to be taken seriously.

Says one of the biggest trolls on these forums. Hahaha! Really?


Is this intelligent? .... Push button 3 one time only and watch your skill maximize in front of your eyes!.......
Could we have this implemented please because im bored and spent my whole allowance on this dumb crafting game. Sounds reasonable to me. Oh, and take away safezones.
I'm used to getting everything i want right friggin now and i bought this cool keyboard where i can play my game still after bedtime and mom does'nt even know! LOL!!!!!!!! I'm level 98 and you guys suk! LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Shoulda seen how tough i was in Darkfall, you pansies SUK!!! This game suks!!!!! LOLOL.....!!!!!
I gotta stay off these forums, man. You guys might check out WWIIonline forums, those people set a great example over there.

What the fuck are you babbling about?

[Dirt]

did i hurt there feelings? hit a little close to home?

[Belight]

This thread just keeps getting better and better!

[mrcalhou]

So until it's fixed, what should be done about macroing? Which of the 3 options do you promote? Or do you want the server taken down until it is fixed?

I don't really care.

[ifireallymust]

Is this intelligent? .... Push button 3 one time only and watch your skill maximize in front of your eyes!.......
Could we have this implemented please because im bored and spent my whole allowance on this dumb crafting game. Sounds reasonable to me. Oh, and take away safezones.
I'm used to getting everything i want right friggin now and i bought this cool keyboard where i can play my game still after bedtime and mom does'nt even know! LOL!!!!!!!! I'm level 98 and you guys suk! LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Shoulda seen how tough i was in Darkfall, you pansies SUK!!! This game suks!!!!! LOLOL.....!!!!!
I gotta stay off these forums, man. You guys might check out WWIIonline forums, those people set a great example over there.

Years ago, when I was a young and naive idealist, oh, more than a decade ago, really, I called up a major clothing company to ask if their clothing was made in sweatshops. Much to my dismay, the person I was transferred to was quite a bit better versed in logic and debate than I was. She asked me to define sweatshop, please. When I muttered something vague about child labor and poor working conditions and low pay, she wanted me to tell her at what age someone was old enough to work (in my state you can work part time at age 15) and asked me to specify what working conditions would qualify a place of employment as a sweatshop, and what country was I thinking of and what pay rate? And of course, in the end she assured me her company does not allow their clothing to be made in sweatshops, and I gave up and took her word for it. I was quite embarassed by the time the call ended. A little angry, too. What had happened?

What happened is, the representative for the company didn't allow me to state my question in general terms. She wanted specifics, and I couldn't provide them, because I hadn't done the right research.

What has happened in this thread is, people have stated in general terms excuses for why macroing shouldn't be punished, and have never actually been pinned down even on whether it should be allowed vs whether it should be prohibited but not punished. Which makes the issue very difficult to debate.

So thanks anyway, but I'll stick around this forum. Because even though I know to never argue in general terms and never allow my opponents to, I'm a bit out of practice, and these guys are pretty good at giving everyone the run around. Of course, now that I've gotten them to specifics, most of them have fallen back into troll mode. Which means I've won the debate. I'm quite enjoying myself.

[Belight]

Yeah, you win. If by win you mean you're so dense that people have stopped bothering to talk to you in any reasonable manner because it's a waste of time.

Wow, some people...

[ifireallymust]

Did you actually do this? lol You could have just looked at the 'Made In ..." label and discovered the answer yourself, captain of the debate club.

I did actually do this. Perhaps I should have just assumed everything not made in the US, Canada, or Western Europe was made in a sweatshop, eh?

[Dirt]

I'll keep coming back to these forums just to read your input, Ifireallymust, you clearly have the usual suspects on high alert. So much debate and complaint on these forums and you always keep calm while teaching some of these folks. I'm guilty of posting out of emotion sometimes and in my opinion, inappropriate actions in life and in game should suffer consequence, macroing included. For me it's a moral issue, even if it is just a game. The only easy way for me to understand the sort of folk who choose the shady way of doing things is to label them as shady. Then treat them as such. I wont debate with them, i'll treat them like shady people.

[ifireallymust]

I'll keep coming back to these forums just to read your input, Ifireallymust, you clearly have the usual suspects on high alert. So much debate and complaint on these forums and you always keep calm while teaching some of these folks. I'm guilty of posting out of emotion sometimes and in my opinion, inappropriate actions in life and in game should suffer consequence, macroing included. For me it's a moral issue, even if it is just a game. The only easy way for me to understand the sort of folk who choose the shady way of doing things is to label them as shady. Then treat them as such. I wont debate with them, i'll treat them like shady people.

Thanks, Dirt! But you're wrong about me. If only I did always keep calm. Depending on the issue, I let emotion drive far more often than I should.

While logic and morals actually mean nothing when it comes to real issues (which are always settled by those who control the mean guys with the guns) I enjoy logical debate as much as I enjoy a good game of chess. And I don't like it when I consider my opinion to be correct from both a moral standpoint (which is to a great extent an emotional concept) and from a logical standpoint, yet still find my opponents too slippery to pin down. It means I'm doing something wrong. It took me way too many posts to realize that the problem was an ill-defined discussion being held by people who have no interest in defining it sharply. Unlike some of the pvp debates, which eventually led to some agreement between me and other players, this issue isn't likely to have any middle ground, and the reason why is exactly the word you used. It's shady.

[Deacon]

this subject is moot....the afk macroers have already done the deed ...now they would just be closing barn door, after horses have left.

[Belight]

It took me way too many posts to realize that the problem was an ill-defined discussion being held by people who have no interest in defining it sharply. Unlike some of the pvp debates, which eventually led to some agreement between me and other players, this issue isn't likely to have any middle ground, and the reason why is exactly the word you used. It's shady.

Since you keep trying to go on about how ill-defined my arguments are, I figured I'd make it easy for you. Below is an example of how time after time I've offered a number of well defined solutions and reiterated my points over and over, yet you've apparently decided to over look them for the sake of your own "victory".


How about we stop dreaming up prison solutions and ways to punish one another and actually dream up some good and creative game designs that would stop macroing at it's source?


My solution is not to accept macroing, but rather to understand it, to understand it's reason and cause and to address those accordingly. I.E. designing well thought out game mechanics that discourage the need for macroing.


Lets take fishing as an example. Instead of click.... Wait.... Click....

Why not click... use move controls to jerk the rod, temp the fish, etc... Then upon a randomly timed bite you have to click and do a command to real teh fish in. Bam! Fishing is now more fun, interactive, and does not easily allow macroing.


You see, I'm arguing that it's a ridiculous concept to expect the devs to create a police force to hunt down and punish their player base. People who, mind you, payed for the game, use it for entertainment, and in all other aspects of life may be completely honest and functioning members of society who don't deserve to lose their hard earned money.

I think the dev's time and money would be better spent creating fun and creative game designs that remove the need and ability to macro. Is that so crazy?


I personally do not macro, ever, not even in DarkFall. Though I completely understand why people do. It's not fun to click the same button over and over for a shallow and half assed harvesting system. it's also boring to get your skill maxed by shooting 500,000 mana missles. And so on and so forth.

Why not look at why players macro, where they macro, what kind of games they macro in, and find the weak points in the games we play and improve those points?


Which is more logical?

A. Creating a police force for a video game that must be paid a salary while operating for the duration of the game's life, they also must research issues, send out e-mails, double research issues of dispute, while requiring many people and tons of man hours to ban accounts and reduce their own income.

B. Some development time and one patch that fixes the game feature(s) so it is not macro friendly.


The game is barely playable. The devs need to put their attention into fixing the vitals. Then they can hopefully flesh out and improve their features and get the skill cap/decay in and if they are smart, they will do this in a way that restricts the ability to macro.

They certainly don't need to be dumping money and man power into reducing their subscriber base.... Thus I do not agree with OP that policing is the best way to stop macroing. To be honest, it should have been addressed in the game's initial concepts, then there wouldn't be an issue now but it seems it wasn't, so my opinion is that the devs best bet moving forward is to safe guard their current game systems and get creative with their upcoming ones.

Sounds detailed enough to me... But then again I lack logic, right?

So the bottom line is this.

- Policing and banning people takes time and money. These devs don't have that. So it's not a reasonable solution.
- Devs should use their time and money to fix the features instead of wasting it on punishing people and reducing their own subscriber base.
- Reworking a few systems and crafts is a much better use of their time and money.
- They can save even more time and money by making macro deterring systems for their future features as well.

Therefore, I think your plea to ban macroers is detrimental to this games survival because of the resources it will consume from the company. The solution you're asking for is unrealistic.

[niccoli00]

Since you keep trying to go on about how ill-defined my arguments are, I figured I'd make it easy for you. Below is an example of how time after time I've offered a number of well defined solutions and reiterated my points over and over, yet you've apparently decided to over look them for the sake of your own "victory".

Sounds detailed enough to me... But then again I lack logic, right?

Wasting your time. Though it was a good summary of your posts while I was away from the forums for a few hours. Saves me some reading. :P

[Belight]

Wasting your time.

What can I say? I'm bored.

[dxwarlock]

but the issue is belight, finding a better way to make a game that discourages marcoers as a way to stop them, is about as useful as making an OS that "discourages virus coders". Its not the software that creates these people, its the human desire to 'get away with something'.
its a pipe dream, the unreachable magical game layout that every online game dreams of that can never be reached. if it was, do you not think that at least one MMO would have done it? even WoW with its massive team of devs, chose the 'warden' approach, knowing that discouraging and trying to make a fun game isnt enough to stop botters.

make a game, people will cheat at it, its as simple as that. it can be the most fun, unneeded to be macrod game ever developed..just because it doesn't need to be bot/macroed doesn't mean many many still wont.

and making it less macro friendly is a great idea, but it wont stop macroers, you'll just get more creative macroers is all. its like DRM for games, they spend million on it to stop pirates, you THEN just get more dedicated crackers doing it for the bragging rights to say "i did what they said couldnt be done".

[ifireallymust]

Since you keep trying to go on about how ill-defined my arguments are, I figured I'd make it easy for you. Below is an example of how time after time I've offered a number of well defined solutions and reiterated my points over and over, yet you've apparently decided to over look them for the sake of your own "victory".















Sounds detailed enough to me... But then again I lack logic, right?

So the bottom line is this.

- Policing and banning people takes time and money. These devs don't have that. So it's not a reasonable solution.
- Devs should use their time and money to fix the features instead of wasting it on punishing people and reducing their own subscriber base.
- Reworking a few systems and crafts is a much better use of their time and money.
- They can save even more time and money by making macro deterring systems for their future features as well.

Therefore, I think your plea to ban macroers is detrimental to this games survival because of the resources it will consume from the company. What you're asking for is unrealistic.

So you think macroing should still be against the ToS, but the macroers should not be detected and punished for macroing, is that correct?

[niccoli00]

What can I say? I'm bored.

Yeah, I'm just passing time til my refund goes through. Once my name turns blue, I won't be able to post anymore.

[Belight]

but the issue is belight, finding a better way to make a game that discourages marcoers as a way to stop them, is about as useful as making an OS that "discourages virus coders". Its not the software that creates these people, its the human desire to 'get away with something'.
its a pipe dream, the unreachable magical game layout that every online game dreams of that can never be reached. if it was, do you not think that at least one MMO would have done it? even WoW with its massive team of devs, chose the 'warden' approach, knowing that discouraging and trying to make a fun game isnt enough to stop botters.

make a game, people will cheat at it, its as simple as that. it can be the most fun, unneeded to be macrod game ever developed..just because it doesn't need to be bot/macroed doesn't mean many many still wont.

and making it less macro friendly is a great idea, but it wont stop macroers, you'll just get more creative macroers is all. its like DRM for games, they spend million on it to stop pirates, you THEN just get more dedicated crackers doing it for the bragging rights to say "i did what they said couldnt be done".

...But you can't confuse macroing with complex scripting, hacking, sniffing, or exploiting.

You CAN beat basic macros and you CAN deterr the complex scripting via game design. At least I think so.

When people start hacking and exploiting, which encompasses many of your points... Well, then I think you start getting into the realm of crimanal. You are then damaging the companie's product. Now your starting a whole different debate. Our legal system and how they deal with digital crime. Lets leave that for another thread!

[niccoli00]

but the issue is belight, finding a better way to make a game that discourages marcoers as a way to stop them, is about as useful as making an OS that "discourages virus coders". Its not the software that creates these people, its the human desire to 'get away with something'.
its a pipe dream, the unreachable magical game layout that every online game dreams of that can never be reached. if it was, do you not think that at least one MMO would have done it? even WoW with its massive team of devs, chose the 'warden' approach, knowing that discouraging and trying to make a fun game isnt enough to stop botters.

make a game, people will cheat at it, its as simple as that. it can be the most fun, unneeded to be macrod game ever developed..just because it doesn't need to be bot/macroed doesn't mean many many still wont.

and making it less macro friendly is a great idea, but it wont stop macroers, you'll just get more creative macroers is all. its like DRM for games, they spend million on it to stop pirates, you THEN just get more dedicated crackers doing it for the bragging rights to say "i did what they said couldnt be done".

So what you're saying is all people who use macro's do it just to use them. Throuroughly false. I have used macros in games, but the majority of games I've played I haven't bothered because they were pointless to use, because of the gameplay.

If you were to say all games will have someone making bots for them, I might be more ready to agree.

Skill based games have a huge potential for macros, over level based games, this is true. However, in Mortal Online, I had some macros, but none for afk stuff, more for "I don't want to click 50 times" issues.

A good example: Gathering stone.

Current system. Right click, right click, right click, etc until you have as much as you want. So I make a macro that repeats right click every 4 seconds.

An improvement to the system: Right click once, it gathers until you interrupt. This isn't game breaking because after you get about 15, you're probably overweight.

Crafting: Multiple right clicks, create. Repeat for each item, 20 times if you have 20 components.

An improvement, select all your parts once and click a create all.

I wouldn't bother with macros for those tasks if the system was designed in a better fashion.

Are you always going to want to create the same thing multiple times? Only while leveling, unlikely later when you're making that supreme weapon for your tribe mate.

Any game with needlessly repetitive clicks or keystrokes will be macro'd. Most games do not fall into this category.

[Andius]

In both cases (Drugs and Macroing), I assure you that treating people like criminals and punishing them is not a good solution. These solutions are labor intensive and do not address the root cause, therefoer will never illiminate it.

Education, creative thinking, understanding... Those are the things that will resolve most any issue.

My solution is not to accept macroing, but rather to understand it, to understand it's reason and cause and to address those accordingly. I.E. designing well thought out game mecahnics that discourage the need for macroing.

When we find drug smugglers, do we shoot them in the head and say "Game over." When we find drug users, do we slap them with huge punishments, and on the third time just execute them? Account deletion is prettymuch what this would be like in the terms of gaming. The punishment is not a slap on the wrist, its not even a long hard stay in jail. Its an execution of their life on Xsyon.

The fact is, when I think of a game where macros are really out of hand like Darkfall. Its because nothing is really done about the problem. Before the implementation of meditation I could go online to my alliances capitol city and find like 20 people running macros and about as many afk swimming in the water. If they were to be reported nobody would do anything about it, at most they would disconnect them, and given that all our enemies are doing the same things in their cities, I would just be nerfing our alliance to report them. When I first joined Darkfall I did report every afk runner and macro user I saw. I gave up when I realized nothing was being done. Months down the later I started using them when I realized all my opponents would be macro users, and as someone who hunts griefers it was important to me I remain competitive.

My story is not unique in Darkfall, most people who normally would never use macros or afk running/swimming start using them because they realize NOTHING is being done about them, so they are required to remain competitive in PVP.

Adopting measures as harsh as I suggest, will cut down on them, because I know for one, I will report every macro user I see to a guide if I feel my reports aren't falling on deaf ears.

[Belight]

So you think macroing should still be against the ToS, but the macroers should not be detected and punished for macroing, is that correct?

Things aren't that black and white. I refuse to fall into whatever trap you think you're setting up by getting me to answer one of your three predetermined scenarios.

It should be against the ToS, sure, I've never suggest we embrace macroing. However, I don't think macroers should be HUNTED and I don't think they should have their purchased accounts taken away. I think if they are detected or reported they should be disconnected from the server or short banned for repeat offenses. However, we come again, to the point I've made over and over. The devs would make better use of creating systems that are not easy to macro in the first place. There are tons of options for this and it would deterr the whole fucking mess in the first place.

Maybe if I put it like this?

Do it right the first time, and if at first you don't succeed try again, or pay a shit load of money to hire game police to lower your number of subscribers?

It's comes down to economics, really... And if building more complex and creative systems to deter macroing leads to more fun and engaging game play and more time and money put into actual development, then it's win win right?

P.S. We as players should also probably man up a little and simply kill the macroers... I know I did my part in DarkFall to clean out AFKers and take their shit. How's that for a solution?

[niccoli00]

When we find drug smugglers, do we shoot them in the head and say "Game over." When we find drug users, do we slap them with huge punishments, and on the third time just execute them? Account deletion is prettymuch what this would be like in the terms of gaming. The punishment is not a slap on the wrist, its not even a long hard stay in jail. Its an execution of their life on Xsyon.

The fact is, when I think of a game where macros are really out of hand like Darkfall. Its because nothing is really done about the problem. Before the implementation of meditation I could go online to my alliances capitol city and find like 20 people running macros and about as many afk swimming in the water. If they were to be reported nobody would do anything about it, at most they would disconnect them, and given that all our enemies are doing the same things in their cities, I would just be nerfing our alliance to report them. When I first joined Darkfall I did report every afk runner and macro user I saw. I gave up when I realized nothing was being done. Months down the later I started using them when I realized all my opponents would be macro users, and as someone who hunts griefers it was important to me I remain competitive.

My story is not unique in Darkfall, most people who normally would never use macros or afk running/swimming start using them because they realize NOTHING is being done about them, so they are required to remain competitive in PVP.

Adopting measures as harsh as I suggest, will cut down on them, because I know for one, I will report every macro user I see to a guide if I feel my reports aren't falling on deaf ears.

Darkfall is a great example of a game that begged for macroing. Not so much because of skill gain rates, I think they've fixed that now. But the lack of ANY skill cap.

Harsh measures won't stop macro users. It might get rid of a few, but it won't get rid of all of them. Fixing the reason to macro would be far more effective and beneficial to everyone than spending time banning everyone you happen to find.

[dxwarlock]

So what you're saying is all people who use macro's do it just to use them. Throuroughly false. I have used macros in games, but the majority of games I've played I haven't bothered because they were pointless to use, because of the gameplay.

If you were to say all games will have someone making bots for them, I might be more ready to agree.

Skill based games have a huge potential for macros, over level based games, this is true. However, in Mortal Online, I had some macros, but none for afk stuff, more for "I don't want to click 50 times" issues.

A good example: Gathering stone.

Current system. Right click, right click, right click, etc until you have as much as you want. So I make a macro that repeats right click every 4 seconds.
An improvement to the system: Right click once, it gathers until you interrupt. This isn't game breaking because after you get about 15, you're probably overweight.

Crafting: Multiple right clicks, create. Repeat for each item, 20 times if you have 20 components.

An improvement, select all your parts once and click a create all.
I wouldn't bother with macros for those tasks if the system was designed in a better fashion.

Are you always going to want to create the same thing multiple times? Only while leveling, unlikely later when you're making that supreme weapon for your tribe mate.
Any game with needlessly repetitive clicks or keystrokes will be macro'd. Most games do not fall into this category.

but your looking at it from your pont of view, ever game that you didnt macro in for because of the gameplay..others did. how is making it so you personally dont feel the need to macro..stop those that want to either way?
1 click gather? they will make a macro to gather, open bag, drop, repeat.
make multiple items? they will macro multiple items at once.

just because you wont bother for it doesnt mean others wont. Vanguard had a great indepth meaning full crafting system..TONS of people macroed it for the "I win" aspect. APB was nothing but combat FPS sytle. the only reason to play was to enjoy combat, people macro'd thru that to level up.

if you have any game that requires any keyboard/mouse input..people will macro it. its the fact since people first made games its possible in.

in singleplayer games you have less need to macro, as there is no one "to be better than". in an online game, some people want the bragging rights of saying "Im better at X than Y guy" and will find ways to do whats even the most fun game, for longer, or even 24/7, even if at a slower rate..by macros. as macroing for 24 hours gets more gain than having fun doing it in 8 hours.

[furanku]

Just going back to the posts about me using or requesting lol hack tools, &_& How did I request anything regarding cheating, I am not lol the only person named Furanku in the world that games. However lets say that was me, lol when did I say "I want cheats" ? so cute, -_- but nice attempt at trolling me. <3 By the way if there was a cheat out for this game I would've reported it already.

[dxwarlock]

...But you can't confuse macroing with complex scripting, hacking, sniffing, or exploiting.


yes you can, the 2 are the same techincal description..software emulatiing mouse/keyboard input thru a 3rd party app.
the only difference is one can be done with simple software the user can define, the other is made by someone else that the user can use to repeat the task as he doesnt have the skillset to develop such tools.

how is macroing..repeating a task without your interaction.
different than botting.. repeating a task without your interaction, using software someone else made.

only difference MIGHT be your using a macro while at keyboard to repeat a mundane task...but then it gets into the other area that someone else is using that same exact software to do it 24/7 while AFK.

[ifireallymust]

Things aren't that black and white. I refuse to fall into whatever trap you think you're setting up by getting me to answer one of your three predetermined scenarios.

It should be against the ToS, sure, I've never suggest we embrace macroing. However, I don't think macroers should be HUNTED and I don't think they should have their purchased accounts taken away. I think if they are detected or reported they should be disconnected from the server. However, we come again, to the point I've made over and over. The devs would make better use of creating systems that are not easy to macro in the first place. There are tons of options for this and it would deterr the whole fucking mess in the first place.

Maybe if I put it like this?

Do it right the first time, and if at first you don't succeed try again, or pay a shit load of money to hire game police to lower your number of subscribers?

It's comes down economics, really.

Well that's a fair enough answer. It does answer my question. It happens that I disagree with your opinion, because I believe a company that does not effectively enforce it's own policies is quite likely to annoy players who follow its policies. However, I'm not the one who gets to make the decisions. Nor do I know exactly what decisions have actually been made in specific cases or in general.

I am mildly concerned about the issue, but it has not yet affected my gameplay. If it never does, then quite frankly, I don't care if you figure out how to get a NASA computer to play for you while you sleep, it's no skin off my nose.

[furanku]

yes you can, the 2 are the same techincal description..software emulatiing mouse/keyboard input thru a 3rd party app.
the only difference is one can be done with simple software the user can define, the other is made by someone else that the user can use to repeat the task as he doesnt have the skillset to develop such tools.

how is macroing..repeating a task without your interaction.
different than botting.. repeating a task without your interaction, using software someone else made.

only difference MIGHT be your using a macro while at keyboard to repeat a mundane task...but then it gets into the other area that someone else is using that same exact software to do it 24/7 while AFK.


this is true there is a big difference in Marocing something and Using a 3rd Party Hack tool that will interupt the change data and incoming factors to improve your character in sameway i.e. speed hack or whatever else.

Using Simple Maroc Processing is I don't believe hacking but it does affect the game code in allowing you to do actions over time unmanned.

[Belight]

yes you can, the 2 are the same techincal description..software emulatiing mouse/keyboard input thru a 3rd party app.
the only difference is one can be done with simple software the user can define, the other is made by someone else that the user can use to repeat the task as he doesnt have the skillset to develop such tools.

how is macroing..repeating a task without your interaction.
different than botting.. repeating a task without your interaction, using software someone else made.

only difference MIGHT be your using a macro while at keyboard to repeat a mundane task...but then it gets into the other area that someone else is using that same exact software to do it 24/7 while AFK.

No no, hacking and sniffing, things like that are things that manipulate, alter, or exploit the games code and shit. That's way different than having your key board swing a sword while you jerk off. They are very different offenses. Macroing is like smoking pot and hacking is like shooting heroin into your 5 year old daughter.

[dxwarlock]

No no, hacking and sniffing, things like that are things that manipulate, alter, or exploit the games code and shit. That's way different than having your key board swing a sword while you jerk off.

I'm comparing macroing to botting..both do the same exact thing. but yet some say macroing is ok..but botting isnt.
now speeding hacking, packet sniffing, memory injection, thats all a different story all together.

but macro and botting can both be achieved using the same techniques, and produce the same result. so was wondering how one is good, and one is bad.

[Belight]

I see macroing as botting. Though botting is more complex. I think macroing can be solved and botting deterred.

There will always be those people who bot, but if the game is designed properly the impact that those people make will not be game breaking.

[orious13]

There will always be those people who bot, but if the game is designed properly the impact that those people make will not be game breaking.

Are there currently huge impacts to non-macros atm? (honest question that anyone can answer)

[ifireallymust]

Are there currently huge impacts to non-macros atm? (honest question that anyone can answer)

I can't answer it for anyone myself. I don't usually go looking for pvp (rumor of macroers last week killed all desire to go looking for it, to be honest, prior to that, I had actually made some armor and gone to the lake looking for trouble). It hasn't affected me yet as a mostly non-pvper. Guess it's up to some pvpers who don't macro to answer the question from their point of view.

[Belight]

Are there currently huge impacts to non-macros atm? (honest question that anyone can answer)

In Xsyon? Hard to tell. Doubt it. However, if you look at some other games you can see it's impact.

[orious13]

Yeah that's what I mean.

So far it seems macros aren't a killer yet... If hide was 100% invis no matter what at lvl 100 then I'd say otherwise. I guess we'll find out eventually.

[Andius]

Darkfall is a great example of a game that begged for macroing. Not so much because of skill gain rates, I think they've fixed that now. But the lack of ANY skill cap.

Harsh measures won't stop macro users. It might get rid of a few, but it won't get rid of all of them. Fixing the reason to macro would be far more effective and beneficial to everyone than spending time banning everyone you happen to find.

That is a very typical modern response to any problem. "Some may abuse the system, therefore everyone must be punished, even if they have done nothing wrong."

Darkfall's main problem was not that it had no skill cap. It was that combine with some other major issues, that bred a perfect climate for all of the top PVPers to people with no lives and hardcore macro users while normal users, even if very skilled, could barely compete.

1. Darkfall did nothing to stop macro users. I've never heard of anyone being punished for macroing unless it was a gather bot or someone who used bugs to make their character unreachable while they macroed. Real efforts to stop macro users surely would have reduced it. Like my earlier suggest, account deletions for resource gathering macros, and a 3 strikes and your out style account deletions for macro grinders, with the first warning coming with loss of skill points, and the 2nd rolling every skill back to 5 and a one week ban.

2. Darkfall promoted learning huge numbers of combat skills to be an effective PVPer. With ways to negate any armor penalty, magic buffs to make melle and archery stronger, insanely good buffs and spells spread through every magic school, and no true buff for going pure melle, archery, or magic, "hybrids" are the only truly effective PVP build. Even destroyers have 4 magic schools still open that they need to make heavy use of, and are not as strong as a hybrid that has reached their full potential. This could easily be taken care of by making reasons for characters to stick with a single kind of combat that make them competitive in PVP. Say you can take the skill berserker which disallows the use of hide, ranged combat, and magic, but as you train it your character gets much faster run speed, natural damage reduction, and faster attack speed. While there is something like sharpshooter for pure ranged characters and archmage for pure magic users that give you insane buffs for sticking to one type of combat, meant to make characters on even footing with more versatile hybrids.

3. Darkfall macros are easy to write and use. I have never used macros before Darkfall, I was writing macros that could cycle through multiple kinds of spells and convert up my mana, stamina, and health faster than the spells used them within weeks. Even if you have no knowledge of programing you can have a friend write the macro for you, and load it into AutoHotkey, a free program. Xsyon already has something like this. Their food and drink system means if you wrote a simple macro your character would probably lose all their charm and strength unless you were doing the one thing where it would be simple... fishing. Also most skills are just plain harder to macro here than they are in Darkfall naturally. Since you have to click each item each time you do a recipe, the macro to do large scale crafting would be insanely difficult. With a quick fix on a few skills like fishing and hiding, no amateur macro is going to work on Xsyon.

Would all of these measures combine entirely stop macro users? No

Would all of these measures combine reduce the number of macro users to where it would not be a serious issue? I think so.

I'm not entirely against any form of skill cap, in fact I support a soft cap, and would be willing to accept a reasonable hard cap, but sandbox games are great in that you should always be able to be advancing your character even if slowly, and the wide number of skills allow you to create multifunction characters that give you access to a wide variety of gameplay, allowing every time you log on to be a unique experience. We don't need to entirely kill that because it got out of hand with Darkfall, or because we will never be able to stop a tiny portion of the population from using macros.

[ac1dtrip]

Years ago, when I was a young and naive idealist, oh, more than a decade ago, really, I called up a major clothing company to ask if their clothing was made in sweatshops. Much to my dismay, the person I was transferred to was quite a bit better versed in logic and debate than I was. She asked me to define sweatshop, please. When I muttered something vague about child labor and poor working conditions and low pay, she wanted me to tell her at what age someone was old enough to work (in my state you can work part time at age 15) and asked me to specify what working conditions would qualify a place of employment as a sweatshop, and what country was I thinking of and what pay rate? And of course, in the end she assured me her company does not allow their clothing to be made in sweatshops, and I gave up and took her word for it. I was quite embarassed by the time the call ended. A little angry, too. What had happened?

What happened is, the representative for the company didn't allow me to state my question in general terms. She wanted specifics, and I couldn't provide them, because I hadn't done the right research.

What has happened in this thread is, people have stated in general terms excuses for why macroing shouldn't be punished, and have never actually been pinned down even on whether it should be allowed vs whether it should be prohibited but not punished. Which makes the issue very difficult to debate.

So thanks anyway, but I'll stick around this forum. Because even though I know to never argue in general terms and never allow my opponents to, I'm a bit out of practice, and these guys are pretty good at giving everyone the run around. Of course, now that I've gotten them to specifics, most of them have fallen back into troll mode. Which means I've won the debate. I'm quite enjoying myself.

You never even replied to what I've said about the whole thing or what others have about macro'n not even being seen as a problem. Most of this thread is circular discussion on technicalities of what a macro is and not the ramifications of what a macro(most agreed upon meaning of) could or is doing to this particular game, so that they can be dealt with if needed, which is the entire point of the thread.

Talk about facts. Give me some hard facts why macro'n particuallarly in this game is really hurting anything. Many people have said it's a very miniscule advantage and by what facts have been presented on it, using this so called research you want, the majority of this thread has backpeddled to trolling on technicalities of what a macro is. *snore*

[ifireallymust]

You never even replied to what I've said about the whole thing or what others have about macro'n not even being seen as a problem. Most of this thread is circular discussion on technicalities of what a macro is and not the ramifications of what a macro(most agreed upon meaning of) could or is doing to this particular game, so that they can be dealt with if needed, which is the entire point of the thread.

Talk about facts. Give me some hard facts why macro'n particuallarly in this game is really hurting anything. Many people have said it's a very miniscule advantage and by what facts have been presented on it, using this so called research you want, the majority of this thread has backpeddled to trolling on technicalities of what a macro is. *snore*

As it stands, without macroing necessarily affecting a single actual encounter, these are the effects:

1. A player beats someone in pvp and is wrongfully accused of macroing. Macroers put the accomplishments of all legitimate players, both pvpers and crafters, in doubt, but especially pvpers.

2. If there is a way to skill hide besides putting points into it from other skills, very few people know about it, not just due to the secrecy of those who figured it out, but because everyone assumes anyone with a high hide skill macroed it.

3. I will not seek out pvp encounters and I will avoid them as much as possible because of macroers. I don't mind dying in pvp, but not to some moron who programmed his keyboard to get him skill points while he slept. This is for me merely a mild annoyance at the moment, but what about legitimate pvpers who would have found one more person to fight than they will now? And I doubt I'm the only one shunning pvp due to macroers. It doesn't even matter whether or not macroing makes them any tougher to kill, it's the mere possibility that will reduce pvp encounters for those who want them.

4. Player faith in the game company's willingness and ability to enforce the ToS is lessened due to rumors and snippets of information.

5. The cost of detection and enforcement is a drain on the company and this alone is a reason to ban the offenders and not permit them to ever play again.

6. Any negative aspect or feature of Xsyon, whether real or perceived, has an impact. This is not the only forum macroing in Xsyon has been discussed in, either.

7. Discussions of a hard cap. If this happens because of macroers I will personally hunt them all down. But not in this game, as a hard cap would likely cause me to quit. So uncertainty for the future direction of the game is also in question due to macroers.

8. Calls to make crafting, gathering, fishing, and hunting more complex are fine, but there are other things on the drawing board. If this gets added and then bumped up to an earlier spot due to macroers and their supporters justifying macroing by complaining about the current mechanics, then other things will take longer to complete. And again, this is another costly 'fix' to macroing, which won't entirely fix the problem at all, since there are always some who will macro regardless.

9. It's simply irritating that someone who breaks the rules in a game (i.e. cheats) is permitted to continue to play and enjoy their ill-gotten games without so much as a skill rollback. I like to think that repeat offenders at very least do suffer skill rollbacks, but I have no way to be sure, and it offends my sensibilities. I'm not the only one.

10. The way the game is now, with scattered junk piles and the potential for solo play, suspicion of shady behavior is now likely to fall on solo players (of which I am one) who can more easily cheat in secret. I don't cheat, and I really detest the idea of someone checking in on me now and then to make sure I'm not cheating, but at the moment, I'm unemployed, and I've been playing Xsyon quite a bit, so if I was a Notorious staff member or volunteer and saw the hours I've logged, I'd check up on me, too! Understanding why someone would does not, however, mean I like the idea, and it's the fault of macroers if I ever do fall under scrutiny over the number of hours I play and my solo, isolated style of play.

[Belight]

As it stands, without macroing necessarily affecting a single actual encounter, these are the effects:

1. A player beats someone in pvp and is wrongfully accused of macroing. Macroers put the accomplishments of all legitimate players, both pvpers and crafters, in doubt, but especially pvpers.

2. If there is a way to skill hide besides putting points into it from other skills, very few people know about it, not just due to the secrecy of those who figured it out, but because everyone assumes anyone with a high hide skill macroed it.

3. I will not seek out pvp encounters and I will avoid them as much as possible because of macroers. I don't mind dying in pvp, but not to some moron who programmed his keyboard to get him skill points while he slept. This is for me merely a mild annoyance at the moment, but what about legitimate pvpers who would have found one more person to fight than they will now? And I doubt I'm the only one shunning pvp due to macroers. It doesn't even matter whether or not macroing makes them any tougher to kill, it's the mere possibility that will reduce pvp encounters for those who want them.

4. Player faith in the game company's willingness and ability to enforce the ToS is lessened due to rumors and snippets of information.

5. The cost of detection and enforcement is a drain on the company and this alone is a reason to ban the offenders and not permit them to ever play again.

6. Any negative aspect or feature of Xsyon, whether real or perceived, has an impact. This is not the only forum macroing in Xsyon has been discussed in, either.

7. Discussions of a hard cap. If this happens because of macroers I will personally hunt them all down. But not in this game, as a hard cap would likely cause me to quit. So uncertainty for the future direction of the game is also in question due to macroers.

8. Calls to make crafting, gathering, fishing, and hunting more complex are fine, but there are other things on the drawing board. If this gets added and then bumped up to an earlier spot due to macroers and their supporters justifying macroing by complaining about the current mechanics, then other things will take longer to complete. And again, this is another costly 'fix' to macroing, which won't entirely fix the problem at all, since there are always some who will macro regardless.

9. It's simply irritating that someone who breaks the rules in a game (i.e. cheats) is permitted to continue to play and enjoy their ill-gotten games without so much as a skill rollback. I like to think that repeat offenders at very least do suffer skill rollbacks, but I have no way to be sure, and it offends my sensibilities. I'm not the only one.

10. The way the game is now, with scattered junk piles and the potential for solo play, suspicion of shady behavior is now likely to fall on solo players (of which I am one) who can more easily cheat in secret. I don't cheat, and I really detest the idea of someone checking in on me now and then to make sure I'm not cheating, but at the moment, I'm unemployed, and I've been playing Xsyon quite a bit, so if I was a Notorious staff member or volunteer and saw the hours I've logged, I'd check up on me, too! Understanding why someone would does not, however, mean I like the idea, and it's the fault of macroers if I ever do fall under scrutiny over the number of hours I play and my solo, isolated style of play.

Man, come one, you really think macros have that big of an impact in that many areas? It sounds a little like you're scrapping the bottom of the barrel for any scraps that can support your stance. Most of the things you listed as problems caused by macros I could attribute to many things beyond macroing. I think macros are amongst the least of this games concerns at the moment.

I can't help but get the visual of your character huddling in his safe zone peaking out of a tent and mumbling, "Macroers.... Macros EVERYWHERE! Oh god they're gonna get me! Is that one there?! Oh he's a macroer! Look at him hiding.... Sneaky bastards everywhere!! MAAAACRRRROOSOSSS!!"

[ac1dtrip]

As it stands, without macroing necessarily affecting a single actual encounter, these are the effects:

1. A player beats someone in pvp and is wrongfully accused of macroing. Macroers put the accomplishments of all legitimate players, both pvpers and crafters, in doubt, but especially pvpers.

2. If there is a way to skill hide besides putting points into it from other skills, very few people know about it, not just due to the secrecy of those who figured it out, but because everyone assumes anyone with a high hide skill macroed it.

3. I will not seek out pvp encounters and I will avoid them as much as possible because of macroers. I don't mind dying in pvp, but not to some moron who programmed his keyboard to get him skill points while he slept. This is for me merely a mild annoyance at the moment, but what about legitimate pvpers who would have found one more person to fight than they will now? And I doubt I'm the only one shunning pvp due to macroers. It doesn't even matter whether or not macroing makes them any tougher to kill, it's the mere possibility that will reduce pvp encounters for those who want them.

4. Player faith in the game company's willingness and ability to enforce the ToS is lessened due to rumors and snippets of information.

5. The cost of detection and enforcement is a drain on the company and this alone is a reason to ban the offenders and not permit them to ever play again.

6. Any negative aspect or feature of Xsyon, whether real or perceived, has an impact. This is not the only forum macroing in Xsyon has been discussed in, either.

7. Discussions of a hard cap. If this happens because of macroers I will personally hunt them all down. But not in this game, as a hard cap would likely cause me to quit. So uncertainty for the future direction of the game is also in question due to macroers.

8. Calls to make crafting, gathering, fishing, and hunting more complex are fine, but there are other things on the drawing board. If this gets added and then bumped up to an earlier spot due to macroers and their supporters justifying macroing by complaining about the current mechanics, then other things will take longer to complete. And again, this is another costly 'fix' to macroing, which won't entirely fix the problem at all, since there are always some who will macro regardless.

9. It's simply irritating that someone who breaks the rules in a game (i.e. cheats) is permitted to continue to play and enjoy their ill-gotten games without so much as a skill rollback. I like to think that repeat offenders at very least do suffer skill rollbacks, but I have no way to be sure, and it offends my sensibilities. I'm not the only one.

10. The way the game is now, with scattered junk piles and the potential for solo play, suspicion of shady behavior is now likely to fall on solo players (of which I am one) who can more easily cheat in secret. I don't cheat, and I really detest the idea of someone checking in on me now and then to make sure I'm not cheating, but at the moment, I'm unemployed, and I've been playing Xsyon quite a bit, so if I was a Notorious staff member or volunteer and saw the hours I've logged, I'd check up on me, too! Understanding why someone would does not, however, mean I like the idea, and it's the fault of macroers if I ever do fall under scrutiny over the number of hours I play and my solo, isolated style of play.

I'm seriously not trying to be a jerk here but, I don't see even one case in this entire post being a fact with any hard evidence of numbers or anything else. All of this to me sounds like speculation. I have yet to see proof that a macro'd char in this game will do any more dmg than someone playing the game.

To reiterate I have given solid examples how exactly the opposite is true and that someone who does play the game, like you, a lot more hours while not macroing will have a solid lead on those who do macro. Please humour me as I have asked others to give me some facts here as to proof within this game of a macroer not only possibly but factually having a lead over those who do not. I've done the numbers I've posted the numbers and they are not in the favor of the macroer in the least.

[ifireallymust]

I'm seriously not trying to be a jerk here but, I don't see even one case in this entire post being a fact with any hard evidence of numbers or anything else. All of this to me sounds like speculation. I have yet to see proof that a macro'd char in this game will do any more dmg than someone playing the game.

To reiterate I have given solid examples how exactly the opposite is true and that someone who does play the game, like you, a lot more hours while not macroing will have a solid lead on those who do macro. Please humour me as I have asked others to give me some facts here as to proof within this game of a macroer not only possibly but factually having a lead over those who do not. I've done the numbers I've posted the numbers and they are not in the favor of the macroer in the least.

Humans don't run on facts. Even when we try to, we're all far more emotion based than anything else. Perceptions have a huge impact. If you don't realize that, may I indulge in the conceit that what I've learned from my past mistakes may help someone else avoid them same mistakes? Don't go into a human-oriented field! If you like logic and reason, choose computers, science, or math, and shun law, politics, and activism. Or you might find yourself in the same employment situation I'm in right now.

[ac1dtrip]

Humans don't run on facts. Even when we try to, we're all far more emotion based than anything else. Perceptions have a huge impact. If you don't realize that, may I indulge in the conceit that what I've learned from my past mistakes may help someone else avoid them same mistakes? Don't go into a human-oriented field! If you like logic and reason, choose computers, science, or math, and shun law, politics, and activism. Or you might find yourself in the same employment situation I'm in right now.

ROFL ok you win you got some emotion out of me. I laughed hard. We are communicating on computers which as you, I'm sure, know use math. I infact am in a field of all of the above oriented. MMO's are probably one of the least "Human-oriented fields". GG sir GG. Thanks for eluding the conversation at hand though and attempting to change the subject.

Sorry to hear about your unemployment. As life has shown me if you spend at least 3 months of 8hrs a day like a regular job trying to find a job you WILL find one or end up learning so much about the field actually become an entrepuner yourself. GL on the job hunt.

[ifireallymust]

ROFL ok you win you got some emotion out of me. I laughed hard. We are communicating on computers which as you, I'm sure, know use math. I infact am in a field of all of the above oriented. MMO's are probably one of the least "Human-oriented fields". GG sir GG. Thanks for eluding the conversation at hand though and attempting to change the subject.

Sorry to hear about your unemployment. As life has shown me if you spend at least 3 months of 8hrs a day like a regular job trying to find a job you WILL find one or end up learning so much about the field actually become an entrepuner yourself. GL on the job hunt.

I reread your posts. Macroers perceive that they are getting or will get some gain for macroing. Otherwise, they wouldn't macro. I am speaking of unattended macroing here. These include skill grinding, scavenging, and sorting. We know macroers are doing these things.

If they perceive no benefit, now or in the future, to doing so, why are they risking a skill rollback and possibly even a ban to do it?

The same way they believe there is or will be a benefit, those of us who do not macro believe there is or will be a benefit to macroing unpunished.

[ac1dtrip]

I reread your posts. Macroers perceive that they are getting or will get some gain for macroing. Otherwise, they wouldn't macro. I am speaking of unattended macroing here. These include skill grinding, scavenging, and sorting. We know macroers are doing these things.

If they perceive no benefit, now or in the future, to doing so, why are they risking a skill rollback and possibly even a ban to do it?

The same way they believe there is or will be a benefit, those of us who do not macro believe there is or will be a benefit to macroing unpunished.

I do not dispute that someone who is online will receive more of a benefit of someone who is offline. I do dispute that someone online not macroing will receive more of a benefit than someone who is online macroing attended or not unless they are VERY adept at creating elaborate macro's.

The risk that I can see is simply they cannot play as much as others and they are infact trying to keep up with those that have the joy or curse how ever you want to look at it of playing more often.

[ifireallymust]

I do not dispute that someone who is online will receive more of a benefit of someone who is offline. I do dispute that someone online not macroing will receive more of a benefit than someone who is online macroing attended or not unless they are VERY adept at creating elaborate macro's.

The risk that I can see is simply they cannot play as much as others and they are infact trying to keep up with those that have the joy or curse how ever you want to look at it of playing more often.

1. Strawman argument. Very few people are online as often as I am. Therefore, any failure or success of mine to keep up with or exceed the gains made by macroers is the exception, not the rule. And just to be clear- when I was a full time student and full time employee I played an extremely grind intensive game and never even considered macroing to catch up with people who had more time to play.

2. Let's have a look at your assertion that "MMO's are probably one of the least "Human-oriented fields". Again, a strawman argument. They are still human-oriented. We who play them are still perception and emotion driven. We would not play them if we were not! Imagine playing an MMO from a purely logical perspective. First, close your eyes and remember your best MMO moment. Is there any emotion attatched? Certainly. MMOs gain us nothing in the 'real world', therefore, it's not logical to spend time playing them. They are in fact an escape from the real world. Logical beings would not need such an escape at all. Take emotion out of playing and look over your shoulder as you build. "Using my mouse and keyboard, I am operating this image on the screen that resembles a human being. I am clicking the mouse and the keyboard to put two more images into a box. I am adding two more images. I press a button with writing on it. An image appears in another box. It resembles a hammer." Take emotion and perception based in emotion out, and all MMOs are completely pointless!

[Delvie]

Considering the small dev team I appreciate the fact that they concentrated on performance issues for the last few weeks. Considering the fact that the guide system is manned by volunteers (who better not be able to ban players) not sure there is enough manpower to police for macroers properly. In addition, whatever solution is proposed must accomodate those who are disabled. All the folks rushing to level up to end game will soon be buying the tshirt and moving on.

Besides the fact that the big concern appears to be combat skills - combat system is in process of being reworked - wouldn't surprise me at all if all combat skill levels are reset once the new system is implemented. Actually that might be the best way to handle it.

[ac1dtrip]

1. Strawman argument. Very few people are online as often as I am. Therefore, any failure or success of mine to keep up with or exceed the gains made by macroers is the exception, not the rule. And just to be clear- when I was a full time student and full time employee I played an extremely grind intensive game and never even considered macroing to catch up with people who had more time to play.

2. Let's have a look at your assertion that "MMO's are probably one of the least "Human-oriented fields". Again, a strawman argument. They are still human-oriented. We who play them are still perception and emotion driven. We would not play them if we were not! Imagine playing an MMO from a purely logical perspective. First, close your eyes and remember your best MMO moment. Is there any emotion attatched? Certainly. MMOs gain us nothing in the 'real world', therefore, it's not logical to spend time playing them. They are in fact an escape from the real world. Logical beings would not need such an escape at all. Take emotion out of playing and look over your shoulder as you build. "Using my mouse and keyboard, I am operating this image on the screen that resembles a human being. I am clicking the mouse and the keyboard to put two more images into a box. I am adding two more images. I press a button with writing on it. An image appears in another box. It resembles a hammer." Take emotion and perception based in emotion out, and all MMOs are completely pointless!

You win. I don't even know where to begin with this. Nothing of what I asked was learned. Nothing new was learned. Continueing on with my life as normal.


Considering the small dev team I appreciate the fact that they concentrated on performance issues for the last few weeks. Considering the fact that the guide system is manned by volunteers (who better not be able to ban players) not sure there is enough manpower to police for macroers properly. In addition, whatever solution is proposed must accomodate those who are disabled. All the folks rushing to level up to end game will soon be buying the tshirt and moving on.

Besides the fact that the big concern appears to be combat skills - combat system is in process of being reworked - wouldn't surprise me at all if all combat skill levels are reset once the new system is implemented. Actually that might be the best way to handle it.

+1 agreed Devs are doing a great job.

[ifireallymust]

Considering the small dev team I appreciate the fact that they concentrated on performance issues for the last few weeks. Considering the fact that the guide system is manned by volunteers (who better not be able to ban players) not sure there is enough manpower to police for macroers properly. In addition, whatever solution is proposed must accomodate those who are disabled. All the folks rushing to level up to end game will soon be buying the tshirt and moving on.

Besides the fact that the big concern appears to be combat skills - combat system is in process of being reworked - wouldn't surprise me at all if all combat skill levels are reset once the new system is implemented. Actually that might be the best way to handle it.

I agree %100 about the dev team's focus, Delvie. But the OP wasn't asking for anything from the dev team. The OP was asking players to report macroers. Since then, the thread has, as ac1dtrip pointed out, devolved into semantic gymnastics on what is macroing and has gone in circles.

Suffice to say, nothing anyone has said since the OP will deter me from reporting a macroer if I see one. It's not up to me what will be done with said macroer after that.

Added after 5 minutes:


I agree %100 about the dev team's focus, Delvie. But the OP wasn't asking for anything from the dev team. The OP was asking players to report macroers. Since then, the thread has, as ac1dtrip pointed out, devolved into semantic gymnastics on what is macroing and has gone in circles.

Suffice to say, nothing anyone has said since the OP will deter me from reporting a macroer if I see one. It's not up to me what will be done with said macroer after that.

Fascinating phraseology. Neither directly blaming yourself as communicator nor me as the receiver of the communication. Diplomatic of you, if a bit obvious.

But go along, you're off the hook. We're having a communication breakdown in that the point you're trying to make is obviously not getting through to me. However, I've no doubt that you have less time in your day than I do at the moment to clarify your arguments. Have a good day, sir. Oh, and by the way, for future reference, I'm a ma'am!

[Belight]

I'm a ma'am!

OMG, are you hot?

[ifireallymust]

OMG, are you hot?

Exceedingly.


Edit- Macroers need a mini-game to keep them interested? Okay, got one for them. Dig a bear pit. Stock it with invincible bears that can't escape (no one can dig them out, either, otherwise, it's the first thing someone would do!).

Put a totem in the middle of the pit.

Bind macroers to the totem, then teleport them into the bear pit. The macroers have to die a random number of times before they are released from the bear pit and allowed to return to their totem. Logging out won't help. Nothing they can do except die repeatedly and hope the rng god has mercy on them will get them out of the pit. And of course they lose attribute points and skill points when they die. But give them a sporting chance. Say, the longer they manage to stay alive before a bear eats them, the better the chance is that their next death with respawn them at their own totem.

Put the pit in a central area of the game, and it provides entertainment for people passing through. Someone would probably build a trading post there, too. Maybe have it near the proposed arena pvpers have spoken of building.

[Belight]

Make the bears visible and I'll actually agree with you for once.

[ifireallymust]

Make the bears visible and I'll actually agree with you for once.

Sure they're visible, just not killable. Reread. Invincible=unkillable.

But quite visible. Massive and ugly, too.

[Belight]

Sure they're visible, just not killable. Reread. Invincible=unkillable.

But quite visible. Massive and ugly, too.

Oh, I misread as invisible.

[ifireallymust]

One more little detail. A systemwide announcement along the lines of- "Soandso of tribe Suchandso has been dropped into the bear pit for macroing!" Would be a nice touch. And if anyone was ever dropped in by mistake, a systemwide retraction "Soandso of tribe Suchandso was mistakenly dropped in the bear pit. All points lost have been returned!" could clear the names of the innocent. This would allow for some community policing, plus advertise when it's feeding time.

[d3m0nd0]

OMG, are you hot?

Dude you need to say "Pics or GTFO". *shakes head in shame of the epic fail*

[Delvie]

Dude you need to say "Pics or GTFO". *shakes head in shame of the epic fail*

haha, I once was asked to provide pics - and I had to explain to the guy that I had grandkids, told him to picture in his mind his grandma, and then asked did he really want to see my pic - it could really ruin what ever fantasies he was having. There again just having the conversation seemed to creep him out - he never talked to me again (which was the point:))

Thought I should also point out met my husband originally in SWG, been married several years now. There again he never asked about my picture - he was too busy being freaked out thinking I might be much younger than him (turns out I'm older by 3 months).

Figured I'd better add something on topic - hmmm not sure the bear pit idea is worth the effort of coding - just temp ban them if that's what you want.

To add in jail systems means that a serious justice system needs to be implemented, as in jury trials etc. Even then is it really worth the coding? How do you level up your Law skill? What about your Judgement skills? Some stuff isn't going to translate well into skills. To do it without skills by using some form of voting means that you are now allowing a group of players to dictate one player's experience - that can and will be abused. It's an interesting problem for the devs to decide how much power do you put in the hands of the players?

[Dirt]

I knew it! I knew it all along, Ifireallymust, that you are not a sir. You make way too much sense and the patience......

[ifireallymust]

I knew it! I knew it all along, Ifireallymust, that you are not a sir. You make way too much sense and the patience......

Why thank you, Dirt! Don't piss me off on one or two days out of each month and I'm fairly even keel. And even then, well, I haven't killed anyone. So far. :cool:

[ac1dtrip]

Why thank you, Dirt! Don't piss me off on one or two days out of each month and I'm fairly even keel. And even then, well, I haven't killed anyone. So far. :cool:

PICS or GTFO!

[d3m0nd0]

haha, I once was asked to provide pics - and I had to explain to the guy that I had grandkids, told him to picture in his mind his grandma, and then asked did he really want to see my pic - it could really ruin what ever fantasies he was having. There again just having the conversation seemed to creep him out - he never talked to me again (which was the point:))

Thought I should also point out met my husband originally in SWG, been married several years now. There again he never asked about my picture - he was too busy being freaked out thinking I might be much younger than him (turns out I'm older by 3 months).

Figured I'd better add something on topic - hmmm not sure the bear pit idea is worth the effort of coding - just temp ban them if that's what you want.

To add in jail systems means that a serious justice system needs to be implemented, as in jury trials etc. Even then is it really worth the coding? How do you level up your Law skill? What about your Judgement skills? Some stuff isn't going to translate well into skills. To do it without skills by using some form of voting means that you are now allowing a group of players to dictate one player's experience - that can and will be abused. It's an interesting problem for the devs to decide how much power do you put in the hands of the players?

I like a women with experience.

[Jadzia]

PICS or GTFO!

You want a picture about her not killing someone ?

[ac1dtrip]

You want a picture about her not killing someone ?

Yes. That works.

[orious13]

All you have to do is mention that you're a woman and the thread instantly changes course.

[ac1dtrip]

All you have to do is mention that you're a woman and the thread instantly changes course.

....QFT....

[ifireallymust]

All you have to do is mention that you're a woman and the thread instantly changes course.

Nah, it didn't get major derailed until I lied and said I was hot and that I hadn't killed anyone in a cyclic rage.

Oops! I mean...

*Frantically hunts for a picture of a hot PMSd chick not killing someone.*

[Delvie]

Nah, it didn't get major derailed until I lied and said I was hot and that I hadn't killed anyone in a cyclic rage.

Oops! I mean...

*Frantically hunts for a picture of a hot PMSd chick not killing someone.*

Now you've done it - thread will be full of unrealistic fantasy pics :)

[Belight]

Well, atleast we now have a better understanding of why your opinions are wrong, you're a woman!






I'm kidding.






Kind of...

[Hanover]

So far the very best way to deal with macro'ing players is how our Tribe does it...

If anyone is caught macroing, we turn them in to the guides. Period! No excuses.

Macroing is against the TOS and is unacceptable EVEN if the player caught is in our own tribe! By letting the guides handle the offender, the responsibility is placed back upon those that run the game and the player breaking the rules.

Our tribe is an honorable and lawful tribe that will just not cotten to anyone that wants to break the rules. Rules will help us all stay civil, lack of rules will cause chaos and ruin our fun and games.

LaughingOak
Trader and Emissary for the Regulators tribe.

Or... Drop the safe zones and let the players handle it.

[ifireallymust]

This is you.

http://amazingdata.com/mediadata35/Image/hot_weird_funny_amazing_cool8_women-bodybuilder-trainwreck-29_2009073023324911570.jpg

I really gotta cut down on the steroids.

[Sirius]

I knew it! I knew it all along, Ifireallymust, that you are not a sir. You make way too much sense......

Hi there, have you actually met a woman before?

[d3m0nd0]

Here's A Picture of Me tehehehe:

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6533/001hr.jpg

If you all stop macroing and play nice ill post more pictures.

[ac1dtrip]

Here's A Picture of Me tehehehe:

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6533/001hr.jpg

If you all stop macroing and play nice ill post more pictures.

That is some incentive.

[orious13]

That is some incentive.

Itsa TRAP.

[ModMunkir]

Thread has been there done that

closed

Munkir