So it seems my thread about a hacker was deleted..

[d3m0nd0]

So, my next question is, why are you trying to protect him?
I see no reason why this should all be sweapted under the rug.
Well unless one of the mods is corrupt. Trying to silence the truth.
Which would already damage this games reputation further.

Do you want hackers in your game? Im sure that would help it survive.
Both the IP address on that forum and the culprit match. That and a few
other things linking the suspect in question is as damning evidence
a real court would need. I want to know if something will be done about this.

If this post is closed/deleted i will just consider the mods here corrupt and broken,
failing to do the job they have be requested to do.

[ModMunkir]

If you suspect someone is cheating, report it privately to the guides/devs. It is against the TOS to post names of suspected cheaters in these forums

Munkir

Posts that contain names of suspected cheaters, or cheating allegations. All such allegations must be sent to an approved representative of Notorious Games and not be made public

[Virtus]

A quick post to clear this up.

Moderators only work on the forums, they are not in game guides, that is a whole other division.

The moderators do not know who and who does not get in game infractions and are there for a neutral party.

I will temp reopen this thread for any concerns (not over riding Munkir's decision to lock since he did take appropriate action)

[Mizzlexx]

So if a member of the community openly admits he is macroing in game on the forums there is no consequence? I have seen happen this several times with no action taken just curious

[Jadzia]

So if a member of the community openly admits he is macroing in game on the forums there is no consequence? I have seen happen this several times with no action taken just curious

I'd like to know the answer as well.

[Virtus]

Not unless a player gets permanently banned from the game.

Bad analogy but only one I can come up with: It would be like telling a kid he can't ride the school bus for the next week because he didn't do his math homework.

The forum and game have different rules and run as separate entities.

If we did take action on both sides there would be a lot of people in game with infractions for saying stuff on the forum.

[boomer0901]

I also was in game and heard said person claim he knew how many ppl were on at the time, 48 to be excate. Doesn't mean it's true said person lies a lot so it's hard to tell when one is actually telling the truth. But I've seen some of the persons in that particular guild use macro's so using a trainer probably wouldn't be a big stretch for them

[Deacon]

Not unless a player gets permanently banned from the game.

Bad analogy but only one I can come up with: It would be like telling a kid he can't ride the school bus for the next week because he didn't do his math homework.

The forum and game have different rules and run as separate entities.

If we did take action on both sides there would be a lot of people in game with infractions for saying stuff on the forum.

so you're ssaying...those admittting to afk macroing in game...really arent afk macroing? or you just dont punish them?

[Dade512]

so you're ssaying...those admittting to afk macroing in game...really arent afk macroing? or you just dont punish them?

I think what he's getting at is that they would actually need to be caught. People say a lot of dumb crap, doesn't always make it true.

[dxwarlock]

Not unless a player gets permanently banned from the game.

Bad analogy but only one I can come up with: It would be like telling a kid he can't ride the school bus for the next week because he didn't do his math homework.

The forum and game have different rules and run as separate entities.

If we did take action on both sides there would be a lot of people in game with infractions for saying stuff on the forum.

but do the 2 departments not talk to each other? if someone repeatably admits on the forums they macro ingame, is there no link between mods and guides that that info can be relayed to 'flag' them to be watched?

a think a better analogy would be along the lines of:
"someone can admit to selling drugs openly on the streets, but unless he walks into the police station where the officers work and admits it, nothing can be done about it"

granted the 2 aren't not one in the same, but making them mutually exclusive of each other isnt the best idea either.

Sure everything done on the forums should not be linked to guides needing to be involved. but when its a post on the forums, about something ingame, thats against the TOS..there should be a line of communication between the controlling forces of each side to work with each other.

[Jadzia]

Not unless a player gets permanently banned from the game.

Bad analogy but only one I can come up with: It would be like telling a kid he can't ride the school bus for the next week because he didn't do his math homework.

The forum and game have different rules and run as separate entities.

If we did take action on both sides there would be a lot of people in game with infractions for saying stuff on the forum.

But if a player admits on the forum that he did break the rules of the GAME that should have consequences in GAME, as in banning or rollback of his skills or whatever. Leaving it without a word gives a very bad message to the playerbase.

[orious13]

They have to be caught red-handed to receive any punishment.

Being put on "watch" seems legitimate to me as the guides do have access to the forums themselves.

[Virtus]

Yes, we can't just take action against someone for saying that they did something.

Also, if someone says in these forums that they macro in game report it. We cannot go through and read every single post that's made.

[galagah]

Yes, we can't just take action against someone for saying that they did something.

Also, if someone says in these forums that they macro in game report it. We cannot go through and read every single post that's made.

Isn't that what the Mods are supposed to do though ? Afterall , how can you "police " the forums , if you don't check each post , its not like these forums are that busy either .

But back on topic , i do think that anyone caught cheating in ANY way be it Macro use or anything else , they should be Named and Shamed .

[furanku]

I think that if think someone is cheating you should first frap it (if possible) then report it in a timely fashion not months after the fact.

I have frapped tribes and individual players since the launch and reported them that day or day after. I also went to private message Support using /h command, used the support on the website and then private message Virtus and gave him links [ privately ] to all people I've caught cheating and or Macroing.

Do not go around saying "wahh he's cheating" and shouting out names. Let the In game guides take care of that. To the OP if you have solid proof I am cheating please report it to the Virtus and give him videos of me "speed hacking" or whatever you think I am doing. I do not cheat. I did on launch Sit there and hit Tab like everybody else but once Virtus told me that doing it might be a banned offense I stopped that day. In Addition, it is your choice to believe whatever you'd like to believe. If you ever feel that me or anyone else in the game is cheating please just do the following.


1. Get Video of person cheating (use, Fraps or Wegames or whatever tool you can)
2. Take screenshots of the conversation with the GM as proof you reported it
3. Report it by using /h
4. Than use the http://www.xsyon.com/support and give links to where the video and pictures are.
5. Wait for them to do their jobs.

also I'd like to add; its usually not the best idea to post websites to sites that do or may offer cheating programs on said games's website or ingame. that is usually promoting the site, and should be banned for doing it ^_^ just saying.

[d3m0nd0]

Or Anyone caught visting those sites.

[Aethaeryn]

Or Anyone caught visting those sites.

Ah now see I would visit those sites to see what people might be doing in game so I can pick it out more easily. I think cheating in this game would be nuts. I actually left a tribe to go solo again just so I would have things to do :)

[Plague]

I'm confused. PL dude asking somene to be banned for macroing? No flame intended but your memebers are admitted macroers, why don't you start kicking people from pandemic and then report them.

[d3m0nd0]

No its not about marcroing its about hacking. As in a 3rd party cheat programme such as aimbot, speedhack, wallhack etc. Maybe if you actually read the post you'd know that. But ur just a griefing troll like the rest of us, so i forgive you for you idiocy.

[Dade512]

Macroing, botting, hacking...it's all thin lines of difference.

[d3m0nd0]

Macroing, botting, hacking...it's all thin lines of difference.

Ah so Murder and Theft are the same? Gotcha. You better go tell the legal system.

[Dade512]

Ah so Murder and Theft are the same? Gotcha. You better go tell the legal system.

Wow, man...just...anyway.
They're all automated by a third party app. They are all doing something for you in the game.
A macro can fish for you.
A bot can move and scavenge for you.
A speed hack can make you run ridiculously fast.
The difference here lies in the fact that hack will do something you normally couldn't, like run at 50mph or see thru walls. They all are based on third party software to gain an 'advantage' and should result in a ban.

[d3m0nd0]

Yes but THIS thread is about Hackers. Not Macro's, Go Post in one of the other 10000 MACRO threads, k thx bye.

[Dade512]

Actually I thought this thread was about you throwing baseless accusations at the mods, guides, devs for deleting a thread in which you broke the TOS. I was merely responding to a post of yours in which it seemed, to me, you draw a distinction between types of cheating. But if you don't want to legitimately discuss, alright.

Kthxstfuqq
Bye!! =P

[d3m0nd0]

If those "accusations" ment nothing and i did break the ToS, then clearly this topic should not exsist. Because i posted im sure ive stirred something up, and im sure its for the better. Otherwise they would of just deleted the thread without a second thought, correct?

[Dade512]

Um, you misread my last post. I didn't say this thread broke the TOS. I said this thread was your crying thread in response to them deleting your post with the name of a suspected hacker, which they then stated was against the TOS.
I'm sure you've stirred a whole lot up, why your the very image of a vigilante. O.o
What have you stirred up, what's better for it?
Isn't Pandemic one of the tribes that have had some guys admitting to macroing on the forums (I could be wrong)? Do you report them, or is that where you draw your distinction on cheating?

[d3m0nd0]

If ur talking about Cejay he quit, and thats real old news, keep with the times bro. Whats changed? Many things. For one i got a following now. They worship me n stuff. Crying? No this isnt a cry thread. Once again you missed the point.

Gee your just made of fail.

[Dade512]

You keep skirting around my question about your differentiating in degrees of cheating, my main topic posting here. So let's take cejay, did you report him? Did you support him, turn a blind eye? Honestly, tho, I think I've got my answer. ;) How many skills have you maxed? =p

[d3m0nd0]

Max'd? Just Terraforming. I dont macro.

[Dirt]

I agree with the OP, Keep it Public.
We dont need real life info, it could lead to legal consequence for Dev's, but ingame names of offenders need to be public. Not as a game immersion factor (obviously there's no way of communicating over distance in the apocolypse), but as a transparency feature in a game which is responsible for its reputation as a mature and non griefing/cheating organization.
I also suspect that libelous chat in forum must not be posted or approved of unless or until it proven as correct(From the Dev's end of course). The players can and will post accusations, true or false, all day long. All unproven and some incorrect. We cant trust these.
Could we just have a feature, where once/twice a day, an ingame popup in chat suggests players check a stickied thread in forums where all proven and punished offenders ingame names are listed and thier offence and punishment is disclosed.

[Mizzlexx]

Demond was banned? lol something happend

[Virtus]

I agree with the OP, Keep it Public.
We dont need real life info, it could lead to legal consequence for Dev's, but ingame names of offenders need to be public. Not as a game immersion factor (obviously there's no way of communicating over distance in the apocolypse), but as a transparency feature in a game which is responsible for its reputation as a mature and non griefing/cheating organization.
I also suspect that libelous chat in forum must not be posted or approved of unless or until it proven as correct(From the Dev's end of course). The players can and will post accusations, true or false, all day long. All unproven and some incorrect. We cant trust these.
Could we just have a feature, where once/twice a day, an ingame popup in chat suggests players check a stickied thread in forums where all proven and punished offenders ingame names are listed and thier offence and punishment is disclosed.

We cannot/will not do this because of customer confidentiality.

[Sirius]

The devs need to maintain complete control themselves, not farm it out to players or entrust them with the responsibility of identifying or "outing" players who cheat. They also need to be careful to avoid legal liability. As much as cheating impacts players themselves, beyond reporting suspected cheaters it is really none of the players' business. We'll be told what we need to know.

[furanku]

The devs need to maintain complete control themselves, not farm it out to players or entrust them with the responsibility of identifying or "outing" players who cheat. They also need to be careful to avoid legal liability. As much as cheating impacts players themselves, beyond reporting suspected cheaters it is really none of the players' business. We'll be told what we need to know.

I agree with this and add.

1. Get Video of person cheating (use, Fraps or Wegames or whatever tool you can)
2. Take screenshots of the conversation with the GM as proof you reported it
3. Report it by using /h
4. Than use the http://www.xsyon.com/support and give links to where the video and pictures are.
5. Wait for them to do their jobs.

[Trak]

Macroing, botting, hacking...it's all thin lines of difference.

While both being against the rules, there is a huge chasm between macroing/botting ... and then hacking.

The first automates actions the game intended to you be able to make. Stuff you could do yourself. Viewed from the outside there is no discernable difference between someone who macroed and someone who played for the same amount of time.

The other enables actions and/or information you are not supposed to be able to perform or have access to. Viewed from the outside, one is a normal citizen, while the other is a superhero.

A macroed character and a non macroed character with the same stats are, all other things being equal, equally capable. In a given situation where those two characters encounter each other, it has no bearing on the outcome of that encounter how either character came about those equal stats.

An a similiar situation with two characters, one being played straight and one being played with hacks - with the same stats, player skills and all other things being equal - that is not the case. The hacking player will have an, potentially insurmountable, advantage.

[Plague]

Demond was banned? lol something happend

Uh, forums were last place for him to make it in Xsyon. Now all is lost, pathetic is disbanding.

[ColonelTEE3]

I could say "i killed a man" on these forums.

Should i be arrested in real life?

edit; also i agree with Trak. You're not doing anything you can't normally do when you macro. Especially if you use it to craft and are attended to it. All you're doing at that point is saving yourself some pain and probably carpal tunnel because of the monotony of crafting.

[Dade512]

While both being against the rules, there is a huge chasm between macroing/botting ... and then hacking.

The first automates actions the game intended to you be able to make. Stuff you could do yourself. Viewed from the outside there is no discernable difference between someone who macroed and someone who played for the same amount of time.

The other enables actions and/or information you are not supposed to be able to perform or have access to. Viewed from the outside, one is a normal citizen, while the other is a superhero.

A macroed character and a non macroed character with the same stats are, all other things being equal, equally capable. In a given situation where those two characters encounter each other, it has no bearing on the outcome of that encounter how either character came about those equal stats.

An a similiar situation with two characters, one being played straight and one being played with hacks - with the same stats, player skills and all other things being equal - that is not the case. The hacking player will have an, potentially insurmountable, advantage.

I know what they all are. In, I think, the post after the one you quoted I gave examples of each. The main point I was driving at is they are all cheating.

[dxwarlock]

I could say "i killed a man" on these forums.

Should i be arrested in real life?


if you put that in the correct context, of saying on a gaming forum that your cheating...

so if you went on a FBI forum (if one existed) and stated you was a serial killer, arrested right away with no evidence..no.
possibly investigated to see the validity of your claims to mount a case against you if needed..most definitely.

so same context applies here. stating on the forums that regulates the actions you claim, should result in at least a follow up on your claims.

and a reply to your edit, thats where the grey area that cannot be allowed comes in.
how do you determine if someone is AFK macroing, or attended? where is the line draw to "attended"..someone macroing for hours while not even touching the screen watching a movie on TV..is he AFK macroing? he can respond at any time by typing if he sees a tell...but hes not even 'ingame' hes watching a movie 5 feet away, or could be cleaning his room while macroing, or reading a book on his bed..but fully able to see green text to come reply.

. do you consider that AFK or at keyboard? where is the line drawn between the 2?

then you have the situation of someone that IS afk macroing, and getting a tell and not replying and kicked. they could claim "I was at keyboard, I just went to the restroom and missed that tell". if you allow one, you auto allow loopholes for the other to use.

[Virtus]

Obviously it is hard to tell/catch someone macroing but we do have ways.

Attended macroing is allowed since that person is taking the time to stay at the computer and "saving yourself some pain and probably carpal tunnel"

if it appears you were unattended macroing action will be taken against you.

I cannot go into detail about how we check for macroers as people could make a work around for it.

[dxwarlock]

what about the statement above Virtus? there is no way to draw a "hardline" between AFK and at keyboard. Like I said how do determine if the guy macroing for 6 hours and watching TV in the same room, only glancing at the screen every few minutes to watch for tells for those 6 hours is AFK or at keyboard?

If that kind of macroing is allowed, then how is that different that someone thats in the other room watching TV 'afk" macroing?

[Sirius]

Virtus already said they're not going to give up any info on how they make their determination, because then people could game it.

Suffice it to say, if you're macroing attended but are.. inattentive.. you run the risk of a false positive. All you can really do is do your best to make sure to respond in an obviously human way if anyone sends you a tell ...

[ocoma]

if you put that in the correct context, of saying on a gaming forum that your cheating...

so if you went on a FBI forum (if one existed) and stated you was a serial killer, arrested right away with no evidence..no.
possibly investigated to see the validity of your claims to mount a case against you if needed..most definitely.

so same context applies here. stating on the forums that regulates the actions you claim, should result in at least a follow up on your claims.

and a reply to your edit, thats where the grey area that cannot be allowed comes in.
how do you determine if someone is AFK macroing, or attended? where is the line draw to "attended"..someone macroing for hours while not even touching the screen watching a movie on TV..is he AFK macroing? he can respond at any time by typing if he sees a tell...but hes not even 'ingame' hes watching a movie 5 feet away, or could be cleaning his room while macroing, or reading a book on his bed..but fully able to see green text to come reply.

. do you consider that AFK or at keyboard? where is the line drawn between the 2?

then you have the situation of someone that IS afk macroing, and getting a tell and not replying and kicked. they could claim "I was at keyboard, I just went to the restroom and missed that tell". if you allow one, you auto allow loopholes for the other to use.



We are paying for access to a virtual world. ACCESS TO A VIRTUAL WORLD. Really stop and think on this one a sec. We are not our avatars and dont physically own anything as paying customers.

AFK or attended is irrelevant. Macroing is not cheating.

Hacks are cheats pretty much by definition.

[dxwarlock]

its not a question of the method they use to find it..its the 'line' between the 2.

say a guy is AFK macroing for 15 horus while in bed..and they KNOW hes macroing, but come to check on him during the 10 minutes hes actually sitting there watching it. does that make the last 15 hours null and void?

and as above, say im 10 feet away watching TV letting my PC do all the work, but close enough to see the text, thats OK? what if im 10 feet away watching TV but a wall is in the way...thats not OK?
both cases the guy has no intention of "at keyboard' macroing it. jsut one hes smart enough to be nearby to see a tell, or a dev/guide moving him and to react.

so its really ok to AFK your ass off..long as your there to react to someone that want to check if your there, really?
so its not the AFK macroing thats not allowed, in reality..its the inability to react to someone checking if your at keyboard...

so take my situation into account, I work from home on the PC all day, so by those rules, I am now allowed to macro all day on my second monitor, not even ingame myself..long as I can tab over to let a person know "I'm here, really I am!"...

its a slippery slope, and they are installing the slide for it now.


AFK or attended is irrelevant. Macroing is not cheating.

I believe that the majority of MMO publishers disagree with you on that one. and even here they seem to think its relevant..as hes said "at keyboard is ok..you found doing it AFK its a different story"
but hey if they want to allow "at keyboard' macroing, im at my PC 14 hours a day working..I can supply the xyson world with every item they need.
Not saying that I will or wish to play this way, but just driving home the point by allowing something, with it just being a grey area to enforce, that it invites the creative people a HUGE way to automate everything..and totally ruin the economy when trading comes into play with trade totems. give me leyway to macro, and a creative mind that does programming scripts and automation for workflow solutions for my job..I can get 10 people 'at keyboard' mass producing everything.

there is no "definition" of what makes a macro it seems either, is me macroing crafting ok..but not auto logging trees and returning them? or collecting trash or scavenging? or by what they say "macroing" is it allowed?..
TECHNICALLY you can make a macro to gather an entire junkpile and sort it..so now thats ok?
Thats what Im asking, where is this "line" to draw on whats ok to do.

hopefully they take a bit of wisdom from the other MMOs that had that 'grey' area of macroing, as the history of what happened to them...mass jumping ship of people because of the 'macroers'
I think its ironic the people coming from DF and MO complaining they left for all the people macroing skills...are now wanting macroing.

[orious13]

It all depends on how good their checks are warlock.

If the checking system isn't 100% full proof you can't really ban someone who's at their computer talking and performing funtions directly on xx second intervals every time. You will definitely get into the problem with possibly banning innocent people. Now if someone is not at their computer and they are doing that you could still be banning someone who's innocent, but the chances are higher that they aren't. This is why stopping macros and bots is so difficult. I don't know one thing about the correlation between system checking to determine macro programs or botting programs (which can be the same program), but in my eyes it's hard to convict (ban) someone from macroing beyond reasonable doubt unless you can physically see what they are doing.

The best way to combat macroing/botting is to make the game function so that it minimizes that possible advantage.

Hacking on the other hand (which is the point of this thread I think) can be found pretty easily beyond any doubts, but stopping it might be a little difficult.

[dxwarlock]

oh I agree orious, my main statement was that by saying "oh if your at keyboard its perfectly fine" opens the flood doors for 1000 loopholes to exploit that fact.
basiclly finding out whos is AFK macroing is hard enough with it not allowed at all. add in a variable of ALSO having to find out if they are AFK or not, and the amount of people caught macroing goes down DRASTICALLY. as 3/4 of the ones 'afking' it can work around the system to be at keyboard when 'really' needed.

Adding a stipulation and situation where it IS allowed, lets those that want to exploit it, ruin the game for those that are genuinely wanting to do it to cut down on at keyboard repeatability tasks.

like I said in my case, I can 'at keyboard' macro for 16 hours a day. I work 10-12 of those, and 4 of them ingame..(and a lot of my 10-12 hours of work is spent ingame standing around AFK picking my ears and looking around..tabbing over to do stuff inbetween work). now factor in that I can be doing "something" those 12 hours, andjust given the fact that I know if its allowed, I could ruin the economy and trade for 9 zones around me when economy is added, as a single sole person..worries me. for those that will do it 24-7 and get as creative at automating everything as I could.

as it causes a cascading effect, those that macro, end up forcing those that dont to take it up, to be able to compete in the game once a trade/barter system is added.

if Bobjoe next to you is 'at keyboard AFKing' 7000 bricks a day to sell, and you can do maybe 100...you end up feeling "crap its allowed, and hes doing it, I need to do it also to compete..hes selling bricks at wholesale in bulk, I cant afford to trade at that ratio unless I mass macro them also."

so just like any other MMO where macro was the standard (allowed or not) your playerbase dwindles down to those that want to stand around and macro, driving off those that want to play without macros..think of AC and el-tank. by the end it was nothing but a handful of people that wasnt even there, playing the game with macros.

not one MMO has ever even come close to making it work, why would it here?

I think the problem isn't that macros are needed, its that fact that the crafting system encourages it. if there is a problem that makes people think macros are needed, then the system needs to be tweaked to change that notion.

make crafting like SWG or... minecraft and its ovens.. instead of repeating clicking to make bricks. make it takes resources and time in an automated process. in the end it takes the same time to make the bricks, but 5000 less clicks. sure it can be macroed also..but the desire to do so is less. as its a "set and forget" process, that would take the same amount of time to complete either way. but you can go do more enjoyable things while waiting.

[Dubanka]

The best way to combat macroing/botting is to make the game function so that it minimizes that possible advantage.

that's the bottom line. hell, i'd applaud a game that included macro tools within the game framework to help players automate certain tedius processes.

macro advantage only occurs when you have a product relies tedium as a core component of it's design.

I hate macros...but more i hate games that 'require' them to be competetive...I shouldn't have to macro all my skills to max to be competitive with another player.

[dxwarlock]

that's the bottom line. hell, i'd applaud a game that included macro tools within the game framework to help players automate certain tedius processes.

macro advantage only occurs when you have a product relies tedium as a core component of it's design.

I hate macros...but more i hate games that 'require' them to be competetive...I shouldn't have to macro all my skills to max to be competitive with another player.

I also agree. ingame tools that are hard definded of "this is allowed" because you can only do whatever they deem it capable of, its 1000x time better than the approach of "well just do it with whatever tools you like, but make sure your at keyboard..ok?" as that leaves the door open for anyone to get as 'unattended" as they can desire. the level of how far they can push it is only limited to the progamming skills of the player creating the macro.

I have never had that "xyson has a bad feeling" about it feeling since I started. game issues, lag, rollbacks..sure. I mustered though them all, chin held high seeing it "growing pains". never had a bad thing to think or say about the devs, or any mistakes they are learning from..
but hearing that anyone can macro anytime they wish, to any level or degree they wish, long as they can reply to a tell, or react when moved....was a kick in the face to me of the hope that xyson would grow to a true thriving MMO. (regardless of the techniques used to tell, thats what it will boil down to..as there is no way to tell if they are in their chair, other than physically going to their house.)
I cant think of one MMO that allowed macros, that didnt fail, have people complaining of macros, or saying they left because they was tired of paying for a game just to macro. and xyson (to me) wil lfollow this path if they choose that same path. as its not the game itself that makes that situation bad. its the playerbase. and unless there is a new breed of human thats playing this than all the other MMOS that died from it. we humans will react the same way to it here in the long run.

[orious13]

They just need the skill/stat/decay or whatever system to work in a way that when you repeat a task too often it fails every time and gives 0 gain. Like a (you can't possibly make any more bricks in your condition).

It's not really a matter of telling people to not macro because you really can't stop it in many games. It's a matter of making the game itself render macroing useless. We as the community can help make this happen.



but hearing that anyone can macro anytime they wish, to any level or degree they wish, long as they can reply to a tell, or react when moved....was a kick in the face to me of the hope that xyson would grow to a true thriving MMO. (regardless of the techniques used to tell, thats what it will boil down to..as there is no way to tell if they are in their chair, other than physically going to their house.)

I'm sure he didn't mean it that way even though that's what he said.

[dxwarlock]

I hope not, Im really not wanting to try to sound like a doomsayer. and still optimistic that It just came out wrong or I misunderstood it.

[rajaxone]

wow this forum just went from battlefield xsyon to a battle between little girls. people please grow up and realize that this is just a game, a form of entertainment. i understand you all have issues with various methods that people utilize to play this game but after all it is just a game. insulting each other is going to make you worse than the guys who quietly macro hack or whatever else form of stupidity one uses to "cheat" a game they paid to enjoy. this community is wondering why people are leaving, may i suggest that continuous bitching on threads like this maybe the cause?

[dxwarlock]

yes, because ignoring a problem has always shown to be the best solution raj.

and where have most of us insulted anyone?
and yes, its just a game...that we pay to play also.

when you go to dinner, and get crappy service, and bad food, its just a dinner. its not that big a deal, you have one everyday.
just quietly let the waitress and cook make your food cold and late. discussing it is useless.

so your logic is "the guys who quietly macro hack or whatever else form of stupidity one uses to "cheat" a game they paid to enjoy." overrides the non marcoers "pay to enjoy" option? we pay, we play..when economy comes in we cant enjoy anything for trading as the macroers would have it cornered.

or the "they cheat to enjoy it" logic also work for your in FPS games? someone aimbotting you just laugh it off, die time and time again and say "eh they bought the game, I have no right to condemn cheating while playing with me."

[rajaxone]

yes, because ignoring a problem has always shown to be the best solution raj.

and where have most of us insulted anyone?
and yes, its just a game...that we pay to play also.

when you go to dinner, and get crappy service, and bad food, its just a dinner. its not that big a deal, you have one everyday.
just quietly let the waitress and cook make your food cold and later. discussing it is useless.

so your logic is "the guys who quietly macro hack or whatever else form of stupidity one uses to "cheat" a game they paid to enjoy." overrides the non marcoers "pay to enjoy" option? we pay, we play..when economy comes in we cant enjoy anything for trading as the macroers would have it cornered.

or the "they cheat to enjoy it" logic also work for your in FPS games? someone aimbotting you just laugh it off, die time and time again and say "eh they bought the game, I have no right to condemn cheating while playing with me."

the point was that complaining to the manager day after day, on different posts about the same thing isn't going to help things along. the time devs could be using for development is being spent in answering "ban him" "no ban him" bs. they know some people will try to hack the game and others will macro. they are not stupid that they need everyone on the forums demanding answers from them. how would you like it if i walked into your shop as a customer and demanded to know the entire procedures and policies of your company and than demanding that you enforce those according to my point of view. If I was the dev or forum team, thats what I would feel like if i was reading this. thats all

[dxwarlock]

but rolling over and going "ok ok we cant stop it, so just do it, and answer when we message you" isnt a solution either.

im not saking for an full outline on it, im asking just vague guidelines on how they do the impossible..determine if someone is in the chair watching it macro, or if they are in the chair watching TV and only pay attention when a reaction is needed.

thats my issue. thats an impossible task, no amount of human logic or programming can figure that out. and if "only macro while at keyboard" is the rule..then by default "only AFK macro when you can pay attention just enough not to get banned" becomes the rule.

I mean do you really think its fair? that you may play 4 hours a day (or only have access to play 4 hours a day) and that I can have 16-20 a day..12 of which I cant actually play because im working, but I can drag the game to my other screen, or even run in a VM reduced to 50% scale to totally get away from the need to even have it on my screen in the way AND have its own independent mouse input, more just a "I just need it big enough to read the text on the second monitor")..and macro happily away that whole time..and still be within the "im at keyboard" requirement?

and think if I was your neigherboring tribe, you had 10 people I have just me...but anytime someone needs to trade I can reply "I got 5000 of those, and Ill do it for one less than those guys" KNOWING that you worked for yours, and mine was all done without my need of paying attention.

does it really need to come down to its no longer "time invested playing" but down to "those that have the best automation programming skills" on who does better in the game?

[Plague]

Devs statement is ambiguous at best. Allowing macroing at any stage is simply bad unless you provide macro tools yourself. Example: Crafting. Right now I'm clicking away like mad to the point that I spend hours just clicking clicking clicking to get my toolcraft up by 4-5 points. Instead give me a macro tool ingame that allows be to put in 100 rocks and wait for output of 100 tools (or as many as I do not fail crafting). It's either allowed or not allowed. Right now people craft like mad manually as it can not be effectivly macroed and there are others that run into walls while afk (!!!). Common, that can't be the same category, there is a huge difference to skilling runing and terraforming through a macro and macro crafting. For crafting I need to spend a lot of time getting resources ready and for terra I don't even need a showel to build a road. Let's not even talk about running into walls.

Either or. No middle. Give us macro tools in the game that are sanctioned and use of those is allowed and ban all else or simply ban all macros from the game.

As for hax and other crap I'll not even discuss this, any change to game code and use of 3rd party tools to gain speed and shit like that should be bannable.

[Hopibear]

Obviously it is hard to tell/catch someone macroing but we do have ways.

Attended macroing is allowed since that person is taking the time to stay at the computer and "saving yourself some pain and probably carpal tunnel"

if it appears you were unattended macroing action will be taken against you.

I cannot go into detail about how we check for macroers as people could make a work around for it.

I dont want to be a party Pooper, but Read the rules of conduct again virtus.

"3. Use of third party software that would give you or anyone else an advantage of any form."

I probably dont need to explain what kind of advantages u can get from using a macro program.

- Make your own tools ingame to macro then its not against the ToS

[datagoblin]

What the gaming community needs is 'Virtual' Lawyers. So when you need legal representation after getting PK'd time and time again, you have someone to champion your cause. That no good so-and-so is afk macroing again...File a lawsuit! You can buy gold online to pay for your legal fees. ToS doesnt fit into the idea of your 1st Amendment rights? No problem! They can handle that for you.

"Your honor, it has been CLEARLY proven to the court that my client was indeed grief killed...And on top of it, he was PwNt. Afterwards, he was trolled viciously on various forums...Complete with screenshots. They even used the 'N' word. Yes...Noob. We demand restitution for these heinous crimes against our client and the gaming community..."

Ay yi yi.

[galagah]

Attended macroing is allowed since that person is taking the time to stay at the computer and "saving yourself some pain and probably carpal tunnel"

.


If thats the case , then why does the game client block functionality of my G15 Keyboard ? Hell , i can't even use the media player controls on the keyboard when Xyson is set as active window never mind the programmable G keys , i have to alt tab to change track / pause music etc .....................

( This only happens with this game , no other , before anyone comes in saying its my keyboard at fault ) .

I would like the client to stop blocking the keyboards functionality now that " Attended Macroing " is being allowed . I would like to make full use of my G keys directly without having to find a way to bypass any blocks .

[wyldmagik]

"I cannot go into detail about how we check for macroers as people could make a work around for it."

^^ did an admin really say that ? :O

Big mistake young man big mistake, you have now just brought attention to the fact.. the right way to deal with such was to not even mention it could be worked around..

hmmm think i just added to that attention... :O Anyhow what a rediculous thread, dev's need to control any discussion or answers about it all, and deal with it behind closed doors, if your banned from the game thats it final and done, your info will be discussed in an email about it to the person in questsion, and should be monitored/stopped from posting any discussion about it.

[Sirius]

I dont want to be a party Pooper, but Read the rules of conduct again virtus.

"3. Use of third party software that would give you or anyone else an advantage of any form."

I probably dont need to explain what kind of advantages u can get from using a macro program.


He doesn't need to read the TOS, because he and the other devs decide what the TOS means.



- Make your own tools ingame to macro then its not against the ToS

You seem to be misunderstanding the meaning of "third-party tools". In this context, "third-party" doesn't mean the tool was made by someone other than you; it means it was made by someone other than Notorious Games.


"I cannot go into detail about how we check for macroers as people could make a work around for it."

^^ did an admin really say that ? :O

Big mistake young man big mistake, you have now just brought attention to the fact.. the right way to deal with such was to not even mention it could be worked around..

hmmm think i just added to that attention... :O Anyhow what a rediculous thread, dev's need to control any discussion or answers about it all, and deal with it behind closed doors, if your banned from the game thats it final and done, your info will be discussed in an email about it to the person in questsion, and should be monitored/stopped from posting any discussion about it.

Your post doesn't make sense. Probably any detection system could be beaten if people knew the technical details. Being told the system is "beatable" doesn't tell you anything at all, really. Further, devs likely will not tell anyone details relating to a banned player.

[furanku]

To go on what Sirius said a little bit about a Detection system. As a programer it is easy to create a script that can detect 3rd party usage for example Darkfall made an attached program that ran in the background of the game that would detect any programs that would interface with the game. A lot of people were banned from Darkfall becuase of the G15 keyboard features and than were unbanned because they decieded using it was not hacking. However, it would run in the background not many people knew about it though aparently.

All NG has to do if they want to is create a sub folder in the game patch that will run in the background of the game to detect hacks or tools begin used during the gameplay. Or if they are testing to see if someone is macroing.. well say hi if they don't reply.. well they are macroing lol

[Sirius]

Or if they are testing to see if someone is macroing.. well say hi if they don't reply.. well they are macroing lol

Not sure why you would think that proves anything. I fish all the time without staying at the comptuer while the 25-second time counts down, and without paying any attention whatsoever to the chat.

[wyldmagik]

"Your post doesn't make sense. Probably any detection system could be beaten if people knew the technical details. Being told the system is "beatable" doesn't tell you anything at all, really. Further, devs likely will not tell anyone details relating to a banned player."

Anyone in anyform related to the game (working for) you are playing should not say so openly about how things are possible if its regarding the ability to cheat or be at a better position through not playing the game as intended. Its common sense to not advertise the fact if you are any sort of employee ffs... It maybe that yes plenty of people around the world of gaming knows that things may be plausable, but that does not mean you announce the fact so openly to all and sundry.

"Further, devs likely will not tell anyone details relating to a banned player"

who said anything about devs telling "anyone" anything about a player they just banned? Its about them emailing the details to the banned person and then the banned person releasing what was said on the matter to the forums, e.g cut and paste of the email etc. Been done before not that I care, or have any awareness if content would apply in said email, but still.. Its a new game, new devs, new *cough* admins/community managers etc so I wouldnt put it past a few major cock ups to happen along the way.

[Sirius]

if your banned from the game thats it final and done, your info will be discussed in an email about it to the person in questsion, and should be monitored/stopped from posting any discussion about it.

Maybe it was just your English, but this sure sounded like you were saying that, after banning a player, the guides/devs would get back in touch with the player that reported the banned person, and let that player know what the result of their report was, and that the person was banned as a result.

That ordinarily does not happen in MMOs.

[wyldmagik]

no..

if your banned from the game ( thats it your banned no more chances )

your info will be discussed in an email about the "ban" to the person in question ( person being banned )

and should be stopped form posting any discussion about it ( not allowed to post on forums or show email he got about his ban etc, that would mean monitoring though as maybe he could sign up as anyone and post it regardless )

so "if you are banned" , "person in question" << the person being banned.

removing "to the person in question" would of been enough really, there was I guess no need for that part.