Prognostications, Hyperbole, and Facts

[Mactavendish]

It is great that Notorious Games has forums for us to exchange ideas, suggest improvements or simply share useful information.

However, lately, it seems that folks are only interested in seeing if they can influence the developers of Xsyon to make the game to their vision.

I am curious folks... has this EVER really worked in a positive way? Sure, you can shout, whine and scream enough that they may give in to quiet the noise... but who are they caving in to? The majority of actual players? I don't really know, but my guess would be that as human beings with emotions and feelings like anyone else, it is more reaction to pressure then what's in the best interest of the game.

Another thing I keep seeing lately are folks predicting what will happen if this that or the other thing happens, hyperbolizing to make things sound either much worse then they are, or down playing it to unimportance.

Why can't we stick to the facts? Is that just not humanly possible these days?

Let me state a couple facts...

1. Almost any MMO you will play, tells you in the EULA that you are paying for a service that allows you to login and play a game that be modified, or be cancelled at any time by those that developed it, and carried no other guarantees.

That is your only actual "right". EULA's are written on purpose to protect the makers of a game NOT the players.

2. If it is made by humans hands, it will be imperfect, flawed, and may gradually improve over time... or it may not.

In a perfect world, every game would be EXACTLY what WE want. This ain't heaven and humans are not perfect.

Maybe you can add to these "facts", or maybe you will tell me I all wrong, and explain ad nauseam with hyperbole and clairvoyance how it WILL be different.

Facts don't change regardless of how bad you want them to.

Personally? I am loving this game! I have no problem putting up with changes, since they lead to improvement that I am looking forward to. In the mean time, I can get my skills up and be prepared for what is coming next. Count me as someone that can see the flaws, but can also see past them to what comes next.

[HyBrasil]

I agree wholeheartedly. Well said.

[d3m0nd0]

I disagree, I am Perfect.

[boomer0901]

Well said, although I think it's been said a 100 times before, but unfortuantely your target audience for much needed posts like this will fall on deaf ears and the illiterate

[LoginServerDown]

Well said, although I think it's been said a 100 times before, but unfortuantely your target audience for much needed posts like this will fall on deaf ears and the illiterate

Yes. it is a proven fact those who do not currently agree with the OP are unable to read and write, and they often have severe hearing problems

[Mizzlexx]

Agreed Mac, Well stated and acknowledge.

[Luculus]

Internet forums are like gossip or whining at work.

People will never repeat with the same exaggeration or emotion when their boss asks them to spell out any problems. The simple reason is, the exaggeration and emotional elements aren't accurate and they'd look silly putting those statements 'on the record'.

I don't suppose there's a cure to internet anonymity which doesn't cause more problems. And until there is we'll have to put up with people who just don't or can't self-regulate.

[ifireallymust]

Hey Mac, are these your words?:

"Rules will help us all stay civil, lack of rules will cause chaos and ruin our fun and games."


Doesn't look like a factual statement to me, looks like an opinion and a prediction for the future.

[Koll]

It is great that Notorious Games has forums for us to exchange ideas, suggest improvements or simply share useful information.

However, lately, it seems that folks are only interested in seeing if they can influence the developers of Xsyon to make the game to their vision.

I am curious folks... has this EVER really worked in a positive way? Sure, you can shout, whine and scream enough that they may give in to quiet the noise... but who are they caving in to? The majority of actual players? I don't really know, but my guess would be that as human beings with emotions and feelings like anyone else, it is more reaction to pressure then what's in the best interest of the game.

Another thing I keep seeing lately are folks predicting what will happen if this that or the other thing happens, hyperbolizing to make things sound either much worse then they are, or down playing it to unimportance.

Why can't we stick to the facts? Is that just not humanly possible these days?

Let me state a couple facts...

1. Almost any MMO you will play, tells you in the EULA that you are paying for a service that allows you to login and play a game that be modified, or be cancelled at any time by those that developed it, and carried no other guarantees.

That is your only actual "right". EULA's are written on purpose to protect the makers of a game NOT the players.

2. If it is made by humans hands, it will be imperfect, flawed, and may gradually improve over time... or it may not.

In a perfect world, every game would be EXACTLY what WE want. This ain't heaven and humans are not perfect.

Maybe you can add to these "facts", or maybe you will tell me I all wrong, and explain ad nauseam with hyperbole and clairvoyance how it WILL be different.

Facts don't change regardless of how bad you want them to.

Personally? I am loving this game! I have no problem putting up with changes, since they lead to improvement that I am looking forward to. In the mean time, I can get my skills up and be prepared for what is coming next. Count me as someone that can see the flaws, but can also see past them to what comes next.

Well put. Squeaky wheel always gets the Grease.

[furanku]

Well said, although I think it's been said a 100 times before, but unfortuantely your target audience for much needed posts like this will fall on deaf ears and the illiterate

I have to agree with Boomer that this would just fall on deaf ears.

[Dubanka]

2. If it is made by humans hands, it will be imperfect, flawed, and may gradually improve over time... or it may not.

In a perfect world, every game would be EXACTLY what WE want. This ain't heaven and humans are not perfect.

This is actually a pretty interesting statement...because in the commercial world, outside of the video game industry, there is very little room for 'almost good enough'. I fail to understand the thought process behind spending money for:

'aw shucks, they sure are working hard...and they almost made this really great product, but it's not quite there, and it may never get there, but i may as well just be happy with the half broken product i have because odds are it won't get fixed'.

This is not a business model that works for burgers, cars, real estate, retail or really anything i can think of. Where else in your life are you willing to accept an incomplete, or broken, product as good enough?

I want this game to succeed as much, if not more, than anyone...because of sheer potential of what it coudl evolve to...but damn, this apologist, hand wringing, gosh yer working hard, atttitude is just boggling.

[Roxout]

This is actually a pretty interesting statement...because in the commercial world, outside of the video game industry, there is very little room for 'almost good enough'. I fail to understand the thought process behind spending money for:

'aw shucks, they sure are working hard...and they almost made this really great product, but it's not quite there, and it may never get there, but i may as well just be happy with the half broken product i have because odds are it won't get fixed'.

This is not a business model that works for burgers, cars, real estate, retail or really anything i can think of. Where else in your life are you willing to accept an incomplete, or broken, product as good enough?

I want this game to succeed as much, if not more, than anyone...because of sheer potential of what it coudl evolve to...but damn, this apologist, hand wringing, gosh yer working hard, atttitude is just boggling.

Ever been to a movie?

[boomer0901]

Yes. it is a proven fact those who do not currently agree with the OP are unable to read and write, and they often have severe hearing problems

You obviously missed what I was trying to say there, yes I was specifically targeting deaf and dumb ppl, sigh.

[Dubanka]

Ever been to a movie?

you see a horrible one, you walk out and tell all your friends how bad it is, and that they shouldn't waste their money on it.

your point?

[d3m0nd0]

This is actually a pretty interesting statement...because in the commercial world, outside of the video game industry, there is very little room for 'almost good enough'. I fail to understand the thought process behind spending money for:

'aw shucks, they sure are working hard...and they almost made this really great product, but it's not quite there, and it may never get there, but i may as well just be happy with the half broken product i have because odds are it won't get fixed'.

This is not a business model that works for burgers, cars, real estate, retail or really anything i can think of. Where else in your life are you willing to accept an incomplete, or broken, product as good enough?

I want this game to succeed as much, if not more, than anyone...because of sheer potential of what it coudl evolve to...but damn, this apologist, hand wringing, gosh yer working hard, atttitude is just boggling.

Works for Movies, Art, Bottled Water, and 90% of Japanese Cars.

[Roxout]

you see a horrible one, you walk out and tell all your friends how bad it is, and that they shouldn't waste their money on it.

your point?

You just made my point for me. The door is at the back of the theater. I agree it is frustrating that this game has not yet panned out how we would have liked it to by now. Unfortunately, this is the price you pay buying an entertainment service. They provided the service. Perhaps not to your liking or expectations, but the service was rendered none the less. With the amount of refunds that have been doled out so far, NG is going above and beyond what they are "required" to do. I don't like it, but it's just the way it works.

[YamiOkami]

Well said, unfortunately, the people who will read this and take it in already agree with you and similar outlooks towards the game. Those people who disagree will never listen, and in fact, thrive on being attention to.

Like the class clown farting to impress the rest of the class, the more you notice them, the worse the smell in the room gets.

Nevertheless well done for making it a constructive post.. Countdown until flaming and backbiting starts....

[ifireallymust]

It is great that Notorious Games has forums for us to exchange ideas, suggest improvements or simply share useful information.

However, lately, it seems that folks are only interested in seeing if they can influence the developers of Xsyon to make the game to their vision.

You mean people who come to the forum to suggest improvements do so without any interest in whether or not their suggestion will influence the developers of Xsyon to make the game to their vision?


I am curious folks... has this EVER really worked in a positive way?

I would hope so, else developers should never have a forum where making any suggestions are permitted.


Sure, you can shout, whine and scream enough that they may give in to quiet the noise...

Ah, my favorite portion of the OP. So, anyone who comes to make suggestions for improvement is only doing so by shouting, whining, and screaming (by implication is a childish asshole).



but who are they caving in to?


And no suggestion will be taken on its merits, the devs will simply cave to them?


The majority of actual players? I don't really know, but my guess would be that as human beings with emotions and feelings like anyone else, it is more reaction to pressure then what's in the best interest of the game.

No information in this statement, although it seems to have content, it actually contains none. There is a guess about what is motivating the developers and a prediction based on that guess about how those motivations affect the game (implication is 'negatively'). Interesting. Isn't this the sort of guesswork you are attempting to influence readers to not do? Why yes, in your very next statement, actually.


Another thing I keep seeing lately are folks predicting what will happen if this that or the other thing happens, hyperbolizing to make things sound either much worse then they are, or down playing it to unimportance.

So there is no logical and correct way to engage in 'if this, perhaps that' thinking?


Why can't we stick to the facts? Is that just not humanly possible these days?

Using 'if this, then perhaps that' guesswork is actually one of humanity's more admirable traits, and one that may be a defining factor in what makes us human.


Let me state a couple facts...

At last!


1. Almost any MMO you will play, tells you in the EULA that you are paying for a service that allows you to login and play a game that be modified, or be cancelled at any time by those that developed it, and carried no other guarantees.

That is your only actual "right". EULA's are written on purpose to protect the makers of a game NOT the players.

Correct. However, a good ToS or EULA encompassing the ToS will make it clear to players what is expected of them in order to continue to access the game.


2. If it is made by humans hands, it will be imperfect, flawed, and may gradually improve over time... or it may not.

I doubt anyone will argue either that this game was made by robots or that it is or can be perfect, without flawed, or with the potential to improve or stagnate or even decline.


In a perfect world, every game would be EXACTLY what WE want. This ain't heaven and humans are not perfect.

Null content, unless someone actually wants to argue any of the above.


Maybe you can add to these "facts", or maybe you will tell me I all wrong, and explain ad nauseam with hyperbole and clairvoyance how it WILL be different.


Another stab at those who use their human ability to use 'if this, then perhaps that', by attempting to redefine the ability into the delusion of clairvoyance as well as assume that everyone who engages in 'if this, then perhaps that' is incapable of doing so in a rational fashion.


Facts don't change regardless of how bad you want them to.

That is not the purpose of 'if this, then perhaps that' thinking.


Personally? I am loving this game! I have no problem putting up with changes, since they lead to improvement that I am looking forward to. In the mean time, I can get my skills up and be prepared for what is coming next. Count me as someone that can see the flaws, but can also see past them to what comes next.


I am of the same opinion about this game. Do not take my criticism of your post personally. I simply cannot ignore your attempt to shame others into doing that which you wish them to do. And you have used derogatory insinuations, blanket statements, and generalizations in your attempt. The posts supporting your attempt are a nice touch, adding a dollop of peer pressure into the mix and the insinuation that everyone who does not agree with it is wrong or perhaps in some way morally evil.

[Roxout]

You mean people who come to the forum to suggest improvements do so without any interest in whether or not their suggestion will influence the developers of Xsyon to make the game to their vision?



I would hope so, else developers should never have a forum where making any suggestions are permitted.



Ah, my favorite portion of the OP. So, anyone who comes to make suggestions for improvement is only doing so by shouting, whining, and screaming (by implication is a childish asshole).





And no suggestion will be taken on its merits, the devs will simply cave to them?



No information in this statement, although it seems to have content, it actually contains none. There is a guess about what is motivating the developers and a prediction based on that guess about how those motivations affect the game (implication is 'negatively'). Interesting. Isn't this the sort of guesswork you are attempting to influence readers to not do? Why yes, in your very next statement, actually.



So there is no logical and correct way to engage in 'if this, perhaps that' thinking?



Using 'if this, then perhaps that' guesswork is actually one of humanity's more admirable traits, and one that may be a defining factor in what makes us human.



At last!



Correct. However, a good ToS or EULA encompassing the ToS will make it clear to players what is expected of them in order to continue to access the game.



I doubt anyone will argue either that this game was made by robots or that it is or can be perfect, without flawed, or with the potential to improve or stagnate or even decline.



Null content, unless someone actually wants to argue any of the above.




Another stab at those who use their human ability to use 'if this, then perhaps that', by attempting to redefine the ability into the delusion of clairvoyance as well as assume that everyone who engages in 'if this, then perhaps that' is incapable of doing so in a rational fashion.



That is not the purpose of 'if this, then perhaps that' thinking.




I am of the same opinion about this game. Do not take my criticism of your post personally. I simply cannot ignore your attempt to shame others into doing that which you wish them to do. And you have used derogatory insinuations, blanket statements, and generalizations in your attempt. The posts supporting your attempt are a nice touch, adding a dollop of peer pressure into the mix and the insinuation that everyone who does not agree with it is wrong or perhaps in some way morally evil.

Well formulated rebuttal.

[ifireallymust]

Well formulated rebuttal.

Thank you! Pity it's not a marketable skill.

[Roxout]

Thank you! Pity it's not a marketable skill.
I hear lawyers do ok with it.

[ifireallymust]

I hear lawyers do ok with it.

I won't give the OP more reason to be irate with me by explaining to you in detail why law is not based in logic, reason, and the ability to verbalize logic and reason (at least not in my country). Although the ability to pretend to use logic and reason is handy for covering up the real basis of law.

[Koll]

This is actually a pretty interesting statement...because in the commercial world, outside of the video game industry, there is very little room for 'almost good enough'. I fail to understand the thought process behind spending money for:

'aw shucks, they sure are working hard...and they almost made this really great product, but it's not quite there, and it may never get there, but i may as well just be happy with the half broken product i have because odds are it won't get fixed'.

This is not a business model that works for burgers, cars, real estate, retail or really anything i can think of. Where else in your life are you willing to accept an incomplete, or broken, product as good enough?

I want this game to succeed as much, if not more, than anyone...because of sheer potential of what it coudl evolve to...but damn, this apologist, hand wringing, gosh yer working hard, atttitude is just boggling.

$40 lasts less than an hour for me in a bar.... this game even with its flaws is money well spent.

[santoclawz]

This is actually a pretty interesting statement...because in the commercial world, outside of the video game industry, there is very little room for 'almost good enough'. I fail to understand the thought process behind spending money for:

'aw shucks, they sure are working hard...and they almost made this really great product, but it's not quite there, and it may never get there, but i may as well just be happy with the half broken product i have because odds are it won't get fixed'.


This is not a business model that works for burgers, cars, real estate, retail or really anything i can think of. Where else in your life are you willing to accept an incomplete, or broken, product as good enough?

I want this game to succeed as much, if not more, than anyone...because of sheer potential of what it coudl evolve to...but damn, this apologist, hand wringing, gosh yer working hard, atttitude is just boggling.

Personally i agree with above statement, i read alot on these forums, "Guys have you ever played an MMO launches are always bad jeesh." wait wait wait wait wait so becuase other companies have had bad launches we go around acting like thats whats to be sxpected or at what point do we demand a company release a game in a state that was advertised? And now for the "Didn't you do your research before you bought this game?" why is it no on the consumer to look beyond what is on the products cover/webpage why do they/we need to go looking through forums to see if we are getting what is promised on the page we buy the game from? As far as im concerened it should be the responsibility of whoever is selling a product to live up to what they sad thet are selling.

[robofriven]

I don't think that you understand. Forums aren't for trying to fix a game. They are designed as a place for two things.

1)Constant belly aching and whining with a dash of exaggeration (that was an awesome 7 week rollback we had last month) and a pinch of threatening to quit if you don't get your way

2)And telling other people exactly how "leet" you really are in case they didn't notice when you told them while playing the game.

[Sirius]

Original post is stupid and suggests both an inability to think clearly and a more general lack of intellectual sophistication.

Sorry about your tiny pink brain, bro. Umad?


I won't give the OP more reason to be irate with me by explaining to you in detail why law is not based in logic, reason, and the ability to verbalize logic and reason (at least not in my country). Although the ability to pretend to use logic and reason is handy for covering up the real basis of law.

Great Britain?

[ifireallymust]

Original post is stupid and suggests both an inability to think clearly and a more general lack of intellectual sophistication.

Sorry about your tiny pink brain, bro. Umad?



Great Britain?

US. But much of our sorry excuse for law comes from Great Britain.

[Sirius]

Methinks you exaggerate a bit, then.

[cliff]

This is actually a pretty interesting statement...because in the commercial world, outside of the video game industry, there is very little room for 'almost good enough'.

Windows. 'nuff said.

[Jadzia]

Windows. 'nuff said.

Rofl so true.

[darkbladed]

Yeah it is kinda funny that people whine over 40 bucks
Seriously that is what 5 or 6 hours of work at minimum wage for 2 months of enjoyment?

Its like buying a candy bar and not liking it and going to the counter threatening a lawsuit if you don't get your 85 cents back.

But yeah I totally agree, it is good to make suggestions, but never demands.

[Sirius]

2 months of enjoyment


This made me giggle, as did the rest of your post.

[d3m0nd0]

US. But much of our sorry excuse for law comes from Great Britain.

That has to be THE most incorrect statement of the year, the British Legal System is nothing like the piece of crap you got out there. No Offense.
I mean Americans take each other to court for the stupidist things.

[HyBrasil]

Some definitions... (EDIT, explanation, pardon me dirt) And an admittedly clumsy attempt to bump this thread.

From Wiktionary.

Prognostication: A statement about or prior knowledge of the future.

Example:
There are many who believe wholeheartedly in Nostradamus' many prognostications.

---------

Hyperbole: * When used as a literary device, hyperbole is an exaggeration that, while not intended to be taken literally, still describes a situation or image that is at least feasible or possible. Exaggeration that is considered impossible is called adynaton.

Examples: "I have been waiting for hours for the end of your 'short' coffee break." is a hyperbole while "I have been waiting for ages for the end of your 'short' coffee break." is an adynaton.

* This distinction is not always observed, even in textbooks.

-----------

Fact:
1. (archaic) Action; the realm of action.  
2. (obsolete except in set phrases) A wrongful or criminal deed.
3. (obsolete) Feat.
4. An honest observation.
5. Something actual as opposed to invented.
6. Something which has become real.
7. Something concrete used as a basis for further interpretation.
8. An objective consensus on a fundamental reality that has been agreed upon by a substantial number of people.
9. Information about a particular subject.

--------------

[Dirt]

Dirt no understand.

[Mactavendish]

According to my original post in this thread..

What hybrazil is trying to say, I have no clue.

BUT...

it would seem he is in "fact" supporting my statements, and that ain't no hyperbole.