A first "Hello" from the new guy

[Danathur]

Hi All,

as most of you might have read I am one of the new guys on board of the team and I would like to introduce myself a bit and explain what my job at NG is.
As you could see, Jordi introduced me as game designer and programmer. So what does that mean ?

Well being a programmer is quite obvious, but game designer is a bit more complicated. My role as game designer is to support Jordi in creating the ruleset of Xsyon. So basically I am the guy, who tries to listen to your suggestions, combines it with his own experience, puts it in a context with Jordis visions, evaluates the technical feasibility and finally helps to integrate it, so that we all have fun.

Now as you can guess this task can quickly consume all your working time just by listening and responding to all of the players ideas and wishes. Therefore in the near future I will introduce a system to you all, how we can improve our communication and leaving enough time to me and the team to do the main task of actually designing and implementing the game. As much as I would like to talk to all of you, it will simply not be possible to do so. All I can do right now is assure you, that we already listen to your feedback. So until I have setup the system, feel free to PM me your ideas and even more important, continue to post them here on the forums. But be not dissapointed if I do not find the time to give you a personal response.

Well to give you an example, that we will really try to improve our communication, I would like to give you an answer to an issue, which was discussed now in many threats all over again. The never ending "PvP vs. PvE" struggle.

Jordi and I have a clear design vision here. Xsyon is about surviving the apocalyse and building up a new world/society. So we do not want to create a massive multiplayer first person shooter. On the other hand are conflicts and managing them (not only by violence !) the real challenge and where the most fun will come from in the long term. So we do not want to create a crafting simulator either.
What we will do to make our vision come true is to make PvPing more expensive, but also more rewarding. The new farming feature is our first step in this direction. How is it intended to work ?

As Jordi stated within the next weeks we will turn on decay and will modify the combat system in such a way, that your personal condition will have a significant impact on your fighting capabilities. So if your are hungry, thirsty, cold, unrested etc. your overall fighting performance will suffer. So you need food, clothing, a house etc. to maintain a TOP fighting performance. A PvPer will need the crafters to maintain his fighting performance, cause farming will use a lot of your time especially with low skills/stats.
On the other hand the resources will need protection, cause only your home tribe zone will be a safe zone and will for sure not be big enough, to provide all the ressources you will need in the future, cause we will also make crafting more "expensive" by turning on decay and reactivating item stats again.

At the bottom line we will focus on making PvPer and PvEer more dependend on each other.

So find a way to get along with each other :) For the solo players here, you can keep your way of life, but being among the best in all areas will not be possible. You can specialize or be an average allrounder. This is up to you. But we want to encourage you to interact with other players, but not neccesarily make you join a tribe.

As a starting point for the above explained process, to produce enough food to keep your comfort at MAXIMUM (again you can survive without intensive farming, but we are talking here about being at the top) you will have to find a suitable farming spot and start farming. To protect this spot you can drop an „expansion“ totem. But this totem will be attackle and your crops can be taken away or even only destroyed by others. This should generate conflicts and hopefully give you a first reason to struggle about. How the "siege mechanics" will work in detail, I will present in a different thread, where I will ask for your feedback on it, cause this post is already getting to long for a first "Hello" ...

Coming to an end, I would like to pass some personal infos. As you might have detected, I am not a native english speaker. I am 47 years old and living in germany. So if you find any typos or bad english, be nice to me or I will start to do the future posts in german only :D
From my profession background I am a lot more a programmer than a game designer, but I studied economics and gaming was always a passion for me especially MMORGs. So I am a newcomer as game designer but hopefully with the right skills and experience to manage the job.

I am looking forward to work for NG and I hope this post is a first start to improve our communication. As Jordi said we had a really rough launch, but we are trying our best to improve our service and finally deliver the gaming experience to you, you all hope to find within Xsyon.

Danathur

[GuideDina]

Welcome to Xsyon Danathur, thank you for your informative post

[Calpurnius]

Welcome to Xsyon Danathur! I know you'll do a great job :D

[Vireya]

Well, that sounds pretty awesome - can't wait to hear more about farming, and really glad to hear that Jordi's original vision is withstanding. Welcome to Xsyon, look forward to the progress :)

[JCatano]

What exactly do crafters have to do to maintain "TOP" performance?

[Larsa]

Hello to you as well, Danathur.

Good post from you there. I'm looking forward to the developments in the coming weeks.

[Danathur]

What exactly do crafters have to do to maintain "TOP" performance?

In the future "they" are dependend on better resources which "they" can not gather in the home zone. And no, there will be no magical transportation all over the world, on the contrary, we are thinking about trading routes, which MIGHT give a kind of protection, but no absolute protection.
Why protection anyway ? To make ppl use them and thereby give you another spot/opportunity where conflicts may happen. This world will become pretty large in the future and we will need such spots to bring ppl together. But that is the future and it is much to early to talk about it already.

Therefore I think we should concentrate on the STARTING point first and please understand farming as such. Balancing the interests of the players will NEVER end and we have to start somewhere.

Danathur

[mmogaddict]

How quickly can a person or small group of persons destroy your crops, for example, given this is a 22/7 game (-2 for maintanence and crashes) how much damage could a group of lets say 3-5 Aussies cause during offpeak play when nobody is around to protect their shit? (We already know that if we wanted to we can totally denude a zone of trees/wood and stumps in about 15~30 mins)

[Danathur]

As announced, there will be a siege mechanic implemented, which I will introduce in detail in a different thread. So no instant destruction is possible, an attacker will have to visit you in a timframe you decide to finally steal your stuff. It will be a two stage siege mechanic.

Stay tuned for more details here ... I will hopefully get everything togehter before the weekend and gather your all input during the weekend. So please do not derail this thread too much, it was meant as a first "Hello" :cool:

Danathur

[Dzarren]

herzlich wilkommen, i don't mind posts in german it is just as good as my englisch :) (Native is Dutch)
Glad to hear that you guys hear us, some of the greatest MMO's did that and prospered.
Cant wait for the first update to arrive :O
I wish you al the best and most of all have fun.

[Eduard]

In the future "they" are dependend on better resources which "they" can not gather in the home zone. And no, there will be no magical transportation all over the world, on the contrary, we are thinking about trading routes, which MIGHT give a kind of protection, but no absolute protection.
Why protection anyway ? To make ppl use them and thereby give you another spot/opportunity where conflicts may happen. This world will become pretty large in the future and we will need such spots to bring ppl together. But that is the future and it is much to early to talk about it already.

Therefore I think we should concentrate on the STARTING point first and please understand farming as such. Balancing the interests of the players will NEVER end and we have to start somewhere.

Danathur

Heh I wrote that same thing in my first post yday I think - its nice to see that you guys are reading forum :).

And welcome to Xsyon - very informative posts, I hope you continue good job!

/cheers
Eduard

[halldorr]

Hey there, great to hear some of the upcoming plans!

[boomer0901]

welcome and glad to see jooky is getting more help.

[Melaquinn]

Welcome to Xsyon Danathur!

[orious13]

Willkommen.

[dezgard]

Welcome to the forums Danathur.

It will be nice to start pulling the community together by answering questions and updating the players with relevant information.

Oh and a very nice post :P

[Jadzia]

Welcome, Danathur, nice to meet you !

[Azhul_NS]

Welcome to the project.

Farming (if done right) would be a GREAT addition to Xsyon.

Speaking for myself only, PvP should be a low priority. Make Xsyon excel at what it does differently from other MMOs. Construction, crafting, and survival should be the top priorities.

[Dirt]

Welcome to xsyon! Pleased to meet you. Could you please put some sand in my river, thankyou .

[Hanover]

Welcome... Time to pull out the "Green Jeans"

[Dubanka]

looking forward to hearing your ideas...and a timeline for their intro :)

[Hanover]

looking forward to hearing your ideas...and a timeline for their intro :)

It has to be by June 1...

[binn]

Welcome Danathur, nice to know about future implementations.

[jeru]

Hello fellow adventurer! Welcome to the Xsyon community Danathur!

[oneyedwang]

From my profession background I am a lot more a programmer than a game designer, but I studied economics and gaming was always a passion for me especially MMORGs. So I am a newcomer as game designer but hopefully with the right skills and experience to manage the job.
Danathur

Oh cool, the new guy posting actually has no experience! Well that good news I guess, glad this game can be your learning experience.

[Hanover]

Oh cool, the new guy posting actually has no experience! Well that good news I guess, glad this game can be your learning experience.

Because no "experienced" team has ever built a crappy game. /rolleyes

[ColonelTEE3]

In the future "they" are dependend on better resources which "they" can not gather in the home zone. And no, there will be no magical transportation all over the world, on the contrary, we are thinking about trading routes, which MIGHT give a kind of protection, but no absolute protection.
Why protection anyway ? To make ppl use them and thereby give you another spot/opportunity where conflicts may happen. This world will become pretty large in the future and we will need such spots to bring ppl together. But that is the future and it is much to early to talk about it already.

Therefore I think we should concentrate on the STARTING point first and please understand farming as such. Balancing the interests of the players will NEVER end and we have to start somewhere.

Danathur

But there already is magical transportation all over the world. Two homesteads with 3 people can move an unlimited number of resources of unlimited weight any distance across xsyon.

1 person is a tribe recruiter from Tribe A, located at Homestead B.
1 Person is tribe recruiter from Tribe B located at Homestead A.
1 person is a mule with a bin full of goods, starting at homestead B, in tribe B.

Mule drops tribe, gets recruited by Tribe Recruiter A -- gets killed (jump off cliff, killed outside territory, etc)
Respawns at Homestead A, with recruiter B.
Drop off materials.
Drops tribe
Wait for cooldown of joining new tribe.
Gets recruited by Recruiter B, gets killed.
Respawns at Homestead B.
Repeat ad infinitum.

Is anything going to be done about this in the future? Can we just make it so you leave a "bag" of loot on you when you die to get rid of this exploit?

[oneyedwang]

Because no "experienced" teams have built crappy games. /rolleyes

So clearly inexperienced people fix crappy games.

[JCatano]

But there already is magical transportation all over the world. Two homesteads with 3 people can move an unlimited number of resources of unlimited weight any distance across xsyon.

1 person is a tribe recruiter from Tribe A, located at Homestead B.
1 Person is tribe recruiter from Tribe B located at Homestead A.
1 person is a mule with a bin full of goods, starting at homestead B, in tribe B.

Mule drops tribe, gets recruited by Tribe Recruiter A -- gets killed (jump off cliff, killed outside territory, etc)
Respawns at Homestead A, with recruiter B.
Drop off materials.
Drops tribe
Wait for cooldown of joining new tribe.
Gets recruited by Recruiter B, gets killed.
Respawns at Homestead B.
Repeat ad infinitum.

Is anything going to be done about this in the future? Can we just make it so you leave a "bag" of loot on you when you die to get rid of this exploit?

Exactly. Any type of death needs to leave a corpse with all loot on it.

Sieging a farm... Haha. Well, I think it would be a good idea to look at Darkfall's sieging mechanic. It's not perfect, but good. Sieges can still be dropped at a time where it will go live in the very early A.M. hours. That's never fun.

One problem is going to be the fact that Aussie/EU/NA players will all create their peak windows at different times (obviously), which could negate a lot of conflict. While a majority of the players are likely from NA, it would still suck to be an NA tribe surrounded by EU/Aussie tribes and always seeing their windows set to a time when you're asleep.

P.S. - The inexperience factor... Just noticed that. A bit of a red flag. Many of Darkfall's devs were not game developers, either. Hope you surprise us. :P

[Danathur]

Oh cool, the new guy posting actually has no experience! Well that good news I guess, glad this game can be your learning experience.

Maybe read again what I said, there might be a difference between being a newcomer and having no experience. I think I have a lot experience in the fields which are needed to become a game designer ...

But the bottom line of your post is, that you dislike the game and do not want to help us building a better game, did I get your intentions right ?

Danathur

[Mactavendish]

Wilkommen Danathur!

I am looking forward to your knowledge of economics to help us develop a thriving economy, that is based on NEEDS ( yes, I did catch what you said and have high hopes! )

What you are tasked to do seems to fit very will with your real world experience. I personally am very glad you joined the team.

I play every day, regardless of the current state of the game for a couple of reasons...

I believe the game will improve, because what you have so far is a breath of fresh air compared to many games I have played and left.

And, When those features are in game, I hope to have a leg up on the competition ;)

Now if I could only figure out how to turn structures on a 45 degree angle...

[oneyedwang]

Maybe read again what I said, there might be a difference between being a newcomer and having no experience. I think I have a lot experience in the fields which are needed to become a game designer ...

But the bottom line of your post is, that you dislike the game and do not want to help us building a better game, did I get your intentions right ?

Danathur

What a lovely passively aggressive response to a legitimate gripe about bringing in people with a lack of experience to a game that is in need of people who have it.

Since you are clearly one in need of constructive criticism even from anonymous people over the internet let me give you some. I think the general tone of my post is that notorious is a mess atm and bringing in more inexperienced personnel is a wonderful idea.

Here are a few of the things that I'll list

There is no communication with us or internally about what content is coming and when. Your own lead tester doesn't even know if there will be a patch until a mere hour or two and he's the guy who is testing all this that wreaks of poor communication internally.

The list of things for us to expect over the next couple of months shows me there are 20-30 projects that were half completed leading me to believe there were no goals set and people were spreading their time working on multiple projects at once. Which is ok except it looks like they never finished anything.

The two russians that were hired are in charge of core concepts of a game that is having a large number of issues and we have no information on whether they've even worked on something similar.
Then the one new guy we do get information on is an accountant who likes to code.

That should about sum it up and in such a neat little way for such a passive aggressive gentleman like yourself.

As for me or others wanting to help you "fix" the game. This has been going on for months with little to show in the way of progress as a matter of fact the game has progressively gotten worse since beta. It's less stable more laggy, there are no animals, trees and the combat system is in need of short term changes to stabilize the current system and a complete overhaul to achieve an enjoyable experience that falls inline with what ever internal vision you guys have.

How am I doing so far?

If you need any further information about flaws or various draw backs I'd be glad to help you out. As for my frustration in my earlier post, I'm sure you're excited about this opportunity but as for me it looks like another misstep by a game who constantly half ass'ed things and lacks any semblance of communication both internally and with it's customers.

Heres a list of books to help you out http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/an-introduction-to-c.html

[orious13]

Don't whine for more communication and shit on it when it comes oneyedwang.

[oneyedwang]

Don't whine for more communication and shit on it when it comes oneyedwang.

lol. What about this is communication?

Hi, I'm stan the accountant and I'm here to build your game......

[shava]

So clearly inexperienced people fix crappy games.

Hey Danathur, can you program us a forum mute function for the haters? ;)

More seriously, welcome! I have a few ideas about how to make this into a real society, but it requires a system with a lot of dependencies, doesn't it? Crafter and fighter synergy, as we have in Eve, is one that we can build. In the indigenous societies Xsyon echoes, the greatest penalty is ostracism, because of just what you are discussing -- without the support of a village, a naked ape has a hard time living well at all.

But in addition, there are strong codes of honor (some of which we wouldn't appreciate in modern terms -- particularly those of us of the female persuasion). These are often associated with religion and purity codes, but I don't see shamanism on the list of Coming Soon(tm) anywhere. Early in the game, it was worthwhile, for example, for people who wanted to build their combat skills to just ravage anyone outside of totem safe territory, so crafters were constantly getting ganked to get a small fraction of armed combat for the ganker (and for the lulz, which like evil, doesn't show up as a stat on the character stats).

In an indigenous culture, generally if an individual from TribeA slew non-combatants from TribeB, it was a declaration of war. In some case, the killers own tribe would deliver his head to the aggrieved party, along with weregilt (bloodmoney) to avert war. Or the killer was ostracized, removed from the protection of the tribe, which made him fair game to anyone who found him in the wild, or especially if he tried to associate with villagers. War was incredibly costly, and when it did happen it was vicious and usually over within days. While guerilla in tactics (no thin red line in these cultures!)

Raids between traditional enemies had different dynamics.

There were councils in North America that were as complicated in diplomacy as anything up to the 20th century, and whose decisions backed by the high context of the cultures that called the councils, were more successfully binding than anything the UN produces today.

So perhaps some of these factors will require a little culture jamming by the players themselves. That's a game I think I could get into. If you and Jordi haven't (and I bet Jordi has at least) y'all should read The Book of the Hopi, for the customs and creator myths particularly. And for history, the Ghost Dance cult (both the peaceful and warring factions) seems to fit nicely with (post)apocalyptic stories of the Sierras.

Regrowing trees is vital -- in an ideal world, the entire original tree map would just be restored. To me, part of the reasoning of this world is that we are supposed to not totally spoil it again. But the rush of the beginning of the game, with no agriculture and no (reasonable) combat system, means that a lot of the folks in game right now are doing Minecraft in the Sierras, building fortresses, cutting a zillion trees to grind up weaponsmith or architect, or...

The lag of certain features has imbalanced the natural and human spheres of influence badly. Can we get a mulligan on the destruction of habitat between launch and the introduction of agriculture? Otherwise, those of us who favor more harmony with the world around us (at least, the environment if not our neighbors!) don't have to despair that we're on our way to destroying the world faster this time.

All that said, there are two things I'd love to see quick and dirty -- first, please expand the ACL function of the baskets to include a title that also displays on mouseover. Unless for some reason you are saving literacy, signs and portents for the introduction of Shamanism, a basket that can display a label (and, ideally, a decay timer) is going to be pretty basic. It's basic *now* and it will be FUNDAMENTAL when decay sets in.

Second, please give us a leathercraft recipe for a waterskin that holds perhaps 1/2 or 1/4 day worth of water, and fits in a belt slot. I don't mind if it still takes me 3 minutes to drink out of the thing, or if there's a dex penalty that means half of it gets spilled on the ground if you're a klutz, or whatever. But please give us portable water! In native American societies, both wax or oil treated baskets and pottery (what craft would that be? Pottery is so basic to civilization!) were used to carry and store water for drinking, crafting, and washing for use in dwellings away from the water. There is nothing more iconic -- even today -- as a group of women and children carrying skins, baskets, pottery, or glass jars to the nearest water to fetch the day's supply.

Since we're talking about the Sierras, you'd expect a rare scavenge to be a nalgene water bottle. At the point that everything imploded, there must have been at least half of the plastic (and perhaps more rarely, intact glass) in the middens that would be water bottles, especially near the old ski resorts! :)

Shava/Ani
reporting from the clearcut nearest her totem...

[Mactavendish]

Well said Ani .. again :)

I have to say at this point, what the haters say seems to be driving folks aways just as much as anything.

The simple fact is, that those that wanted combat at the start are the most vocal since it was not put in. And most of those have left. What is left now, are older more patient folks willing to build and see what happens next.

With a game like this, patience will pay of big for those that can wait it out. Granted it makes it hard for those of us that do play each day, but its been refreshing to see new players in the game. We are still growing our tribe and get new members each week.

Do I see the issues the game has? of course, I just don't let childish emotions rule what I say or do.

If Any of you thinking about playing here read this, know that, many players in game will be friendly, helpful, and willing to teach you the ropes. Feel free to look me up in game at the Sugarpine starter area and /w LaughingOak. I am always willing to lend a hand, some tools or gear and help any way I can.


This game takes time and effort. it's not instant gratification. So, take a deep breath and dive right in... the waters fine!

[Azhul_NS]

Using words like "haters" and "childish" isn't helping promote polite discussion, BTW.

[Hanover]

This game takes time and effort. it's not instant gratification. So, take a deep breath and dive right in... the waters fine!

It's blindingly obvious the water isn't fine. Hell, even many of the "Life Guards" are gone. I'm all for the success of the game, but please don't misrepresent it. Doing so will only hurt the game in the long run, its called Prelude for a reason.

The waters cold,shallow and smells funny, but the scenerys nice and theres talk of a water slide.

[MrDDT]

Who is this new guy and can I have his babies?

Great posts.

[Mactavendish]

How can I misrepresent this game by simply stating my perspective.

I do not have the same view as some here, and quite frankly thats a good thing. I am worried about many of the same things as you guys, but have been in games for years that were not as good as this game IS in its current state... and then we learn that the game will get better, my concerns are known and being addressed and I may very well get exactly what I want...


And you think I'M misrepresenting things? How about a bit of balance my friend. Your perspective seems jaded by unfulfilled desires.

If I speak of my emotions not being childish, its more an attempt to encourage folks to act their ages, than to point at any individual.

[Azhul_NS]

How can I misrepresent this game by simply stating my perspective.

I do not have the same view as some here, and quite frankly thats a good thing. I am worried about many of the same things as you guys, but have been in games for years that were not as good as this game IS in its current state

Not something to brag about. Perhaps others are less tolerant of bad games than you are?



... and then we learn that the game will get better, my concerns are known and being addressed and I may very well get exactly what I want...

When did we learn "that the game will get better"?
I admit I am new here, but I have some idea of what the claims were for release. Claims which were off by a very great degree.



And you think I'M misrepresenting things? How about a bit of balance my friend. Your perspective seems jaded by unfulfilled desires.

If I speak of my emotions not being childish, its more an attempt to encourage folks to act their ages, than to point at any individual.

See, there it is again. Just avoid the name-calling altogether. We`re not here for you to make us better people.

[Drevar]

Welcome to the meat grinder! :)

My theory of game system design:
1. It works well
2. It's fun
3. It's easy to code.

You get to pick two.

Drev

[Book]

Welcome aboard!

Thanks for the info. It was fun to read :)

Hope your job turns out to be as fun as it sounds!

[fatboy21007]

welcome!. Glad to see some info on whats going on. Just very curious of the totem expansio(how big it can be) and will tribes have an option to op out of wars/seiges?

[ColonelTEE3]

Oneeyedwang.

I suppose i could just call you Wang assuming thats your ingame name as well, and i may be wrong, but i do know about the New Quahog tribe. I know one of them was bitching like ive not heard in a long time when they lost fair and square in a Guide event against players that played smarted than them.

Story time:

A guide made an announcement of a pvp tourney, battle royale, starting all of a sudden. All who wanted to participate were teleported to the battle area. The only rules the guide stated: no looting. All else was fair game.

The battle commenced, with a small horde of bears spawned in the middle of us to spice things up. I retreated behind some rocks, went into hiding, and playclawed the vast majority of the fight of players versus players versus bears. A triad of players, however, chose not to engage the bears, or each other. Tryste, Agayek, and Wang were the triad.

They defended a platform unreachable by bears. All who approached it, they 3v1d, myself included. They did not kill me, as my playclaw records would show. I went back into hiding and let the bears and players kill each other until only the triad, New Quahog, were left. When it was supposed that this "team" had won a FFA, the guide demanded they kill each other. I stayed in hiding.

Wang died, then Agayek died. Wang claimed "tryste won" just as both I, and an unknown fellow-hidden contender named Jenny, emerged to finish Tryste off. I backed off when i saw Jenny, i let her kill Tryste, and then she engaged a guy i think by the name of Canaan. Eventually she killed Canaan(or at least ran him off), and then we battled and she killed me too. She won the tournament fair and square. The guide even said himself "bravery or honesty was not a rule".

Meanwhile, back in IRC, someone by the name of "lol", representing New Quahog, was bitching endlessly about how unfair it was that their team of 3 failed to outlast or outplay 3 soloers that hid and waited for the right time to strike. They claimed they killed me. They claimed they killed Jenny. The guides checked the game logs and Jenny was never killed, and my playclaw proves i was never killed until Jenny beat me. In IRC, it was only one New Quahog member, "lol", that was crying furiously about how bad the event was, how terrible the guide did the event, etc. Im sure he made his tribe proud with his IRC tears.

Now it seems another New Quahog has more complaints to make about the game and the new developer.

TL;DR
The point being -- New Quahog seems to be a breeding ground for people who like to bitch moan and complain, and when they dont get their way, they cry about how unfair it is and how bad this game is and how bad the devs or the guides or whom ever is at their job.

So, Danathur, don't take what they say very seriously because they will likely complain about anything under the sun that doesn't go their way because they've likely never faced any life challenges until this very moment and they don't know how else to react to things not going their way. Many of us have faith you can only do some good around here, please dont be discouraged by these players.

[Eduard]

So, Danathur, don't take what they say very seriously because they will likely complain about anything under the sun that doesn't go their way because they've likely never faced any life challenges until this very moment and they don't know how else to react to things not going their way. Many of us have faith you can only do some good around here, please dont be discouraged by these players.

Your post is far from constructive ... You crited us with wall of text about something that is not even remotely important or connected to this thread... spiting on other ppl ... also called as spam post imo.

Don't take what they say very seriously ??? WTF? He is a costumer and he payed so he have every right to say what he thinks and to be taken seriously even if you don't agree with him.

I also noted that Danathur wroted down that he is inexperienced as designer (maybe not the smartest thing to do but I admire cose he have courage to say truth and I hope it will not change).

Sooo to wrap up this post - Lets don't judge book by covers- Give a man a chance to do something before you judge him - only time will tell (but have in mind there is no much time left cose I'm not planing to pay for something that is far from finished plus I'm fooled once for paying beta - this is still beta - don't fool me twice...)

BR,
Eduard

[ColonelTEE3]

Your post is far from constructive ... You crited us with wall of text about something that is not even remotely important or connected to this thread... spiting on other ppl ... also called as spam post imo.

Don't take what they say very seriously ??? WTF? He is a costumer and he payed so he have every right to say what he thinks and to be taken seriously even if you don't agree with him.

I also noted that Danathur wroted down that he is inexperienced as designer (maybe not the smartest thing to do but I admire cose he have courage to say truth and I hope it will not change).

Sooo to wrap up this post - Lets don't judge book by covers- Give a man a chance to do something before you judge him - only time will tell (but have in mind there is no much time left cose I'm not planing to pay for something that is far from finished plus I'm fooled once for paying beta - this is still beta - don't fool me twice pls.)

BR,
Eduard

Its constructive in reassuring Danathur there are players who never have anything to say about this game, the guides or the devs except bad things. He shouldn't internalize it abut it sounded like that guy got to him from his last post.

Im absolutely astounded at some of the things these players say to people who are doing their best to meet the demands of an already impatient community. Humility is a virtue many in this forum lack and id rather not see it further demoralize guides and devs from trying to bring some good into this game. The guide that hosted that event got spit in his face for doing something for the community, that he didn't have to. He knew the population was low and overall the game's spirit is weakening, so he tried to bring some fun into the world -- and they complain about it, insult the guides for trying because they didnt get pixels out of it.

This new dev shows up -- a very welcomed dev in a time of this games development where we are all eagerly hoping for this game to succeed and grow -- and wang just starts an argument with him about his qualifications on his own introduction thread?. The guy is being modest about his ability and wang insults him for it.

Defend these people if you must but they aren't worth the time.

[Eduard]

I don't defend anyone here (even if it looks like it) believe me, and I want all the best for a game and I'm willing to help however I can BUT we need to stay real also - living in a dream that something will turn right only by good intentions is delusion.

If something is wrong you need to realize first its wrong before you are able to fix it. And who is better to point that something is wrong if not your costumers - you build game for costumers to be happy (for entertaining in free time) so you can make money and live from something that you love to do.
I'm promoting this game in my country as much as I can (I'm old gamer who was more then once in gaming magazines with my guild SCUM) but to do so I need to say something good about game - only thing atm that is absolute truth here is that this is far from finished (even not playable if you are not Sim City/Sims fan) ...
I'm all about being positive dont get me wrong but you also need to stay real and realize current situation.

In the end I believe in this game - game with infinite potential - I just hope it will not finish like Conan (released to early with to many bugs).

/cheers
Eduard

[NorCalGooey]

What a lovely passively aggressive response to a legitimate gripe about bringing in people with a lack of experience to a game that is in need of people who have it.

Since you are clearly one in need of constructive criticism even from anonymous people over the internet let me give you some. I think the general tone of my post is that notorious is a mess atm and bringing in more inexperienced personnel is a wonderful idea.

Here are a few of the things that I'll list

There is no communication with us or internally about what content is coming and when. Your own lead tester doesn't even know if there will be a patch until a mere hour or two and he's the guy who is testing all this that wreaks of poor communication internally.

The list of things for us to expect over the next couple of months shows me there are 20-30 projects that were half completed leading me to believe there were no goals set and people were spreading their time working on multiple projects at once. Which is ok except it looks like they never finished anything.

The two russians that were hired are in charge of core concepts of a game that is having a large number of issues and we have no information on whether they've even worked on something similar.
Then the one new guy we do get information on is an accountant who likes to code.

That should about sum it up and in such a neat little way for such a passive aggressive gentleman like yourself.

As for me or others wanting to help you "fix" the game. This has been going on for months with little to show in the way of progress as a matter of fact the game has progressively gotten worse since beta. It's less stable more laggy, there are no animals, trees and the combat system is in need of short term changes to stabilize the current system and a complete overhaul to achieve an enjoyable experience that falls inline with what ever internal vision you guys have.

How am I doing so far?

If you need any further information about flaws or various draw backs I'd be glad to help you out. As for my frustration in my earlier post, I'm sure you're excited about this opportunity but as for me it looks like another misstep by a game who constantly half ass'ed things and lacks any semblance of communication both internally and with it's customers.

Heres a list of books to help you out http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/an-introduction-to-c.html

What a waste of space this was. His passive aggressive response was absolutely the ideal way to respond to the first douche bag he encountered on the forums.

[Azhul_NS]

It is not the 'job' of paying customers to fix or promote that for which they are paying. It is their right to express disatisfaction with a defective product or service.

It is the job of those who are being paid to please their customers, lest they stop paying.

[Danathur]

Come on folks, do PLEASE not start to yell at each other, because one poster tries to insult me even before I started to work. The reply-post about my "passive aggressive response" (shit I like this term) only shows, that I was right with my guess. And my "passive aggressive" style made answer him more in detail, what he dislikes.

So I would say:
1:0 for me, cause I made a nagging costumer becomming constructive.

I am old enough to look over his personal insults against me, so do not worry about it. It is not my preferred way to communicate and I hope, the we will find a better way to speak with each other. To step into a "flame war" will surely not help to improve this game and therefore I will not respond in depth on his accusations of me being inexperienced.

But for those of you, who would like to know a bit more about my skills as a programmer, my first C programm was written on an Atari ST back in the midth 1980s (I really can't remeber the year) and it was a terminal emulation. My last C++ project I handled as a project manager was in 2009. Actually this project consisted of C++, VB.Net and PHP code. I am current in PHP, Java, C#.Net on a mamanger level, meaning I can read, understand and evaluate the code from the programmers. If needed I can ofc also generate code myself, but that is not my main task. I germany, I am member in a committee from the chamber of commerce (IHK) who gives out the official certification for software-developers.

So to sum it up: I have more than 20 years experience in the process of software development and I was suggested to read "An Introduction to C++ For Dummies" by someone who has no clue who I am and what I did in my life.
Well I am a humorous guy, it took me almost ten minutes to stop laughing :)

I am thankful for your support, but please do not take such posts to serious, I am grown up and can handle critisicm and as said before, I got the answer from oneyedwnag I wanted to have. The hard way, but I got it.

Danathur

[AngelusDD]

Ebenfalls herzlich willkommen,

but the siege mechanic sounds a little bit complicated. but i will wait for a proper announcement/discussion in a later thread.
I appreciate more coders and designers. It will hopefully get things implemented/released faster.

[Salvadore]

So I would say:
1:0 for me, cause I made a nagging costumer becomming constructive.


Just by this statement, you've already won my heart!!!

Good show!

[Book]

Just would like to point out, you've already got the job :cool:

Thanks for sharing more about your experience and background though, it's always nice to get to know folks better.

*Must drink more coffee, and ponder if this is the day I bring Dirt some sand.*

[fotuenti]

firstly, welcome to the new dev you have an uphill battle in front of you but it sounds like you are up for the challenge. to that i say good luck.



The point being -- New Quahog seems to be a breeding ground for people who like to bitch moan and complain, and when they dont get their way, they cry about how unfair it is and how bad this game is and how bad the devs or the guides or whom ever is at their job.


i realize you don't enjoy what oneeyedwang has said, but please avoid broad brushing all of new quahog. if you don't like what he said then fine, but no need to lob grenades at the whole tribe. thanks :)

[Umirshand]

Welcome Danathur,

This is actually my first post on the forums, however I've been reading them for a few weeks now. Thank you for your honesty, and stating the intentions of the team for the upcoming content being implemented. On a side note, if you had'nt mentioned that English wasn't your first language, I would'nt have noticed! Good luck to you! :cool:

[Ravenstorm]

Hello and morning. Welcome to Xsyon and the community. Keep up the good work :)

[Hanover]

but the siege mechanic sounds a little bit complicated. but i will wait for a proper announcement/discussion in a later thread.


You also think manual parry/block are "too complicated". :rolleyes:

[Cyrianna]

however, chose not to engage the bears, or each other. Tryste, Agayek, and Wang were the triad.

Why do you feel the need to drag our names through the mud as a whole, regardless of how you feel about any individual member of our tribe. Yes, Wang and i both expressed our frustrations about this event, but unless you feel the need to start a thread about us, this thread was hardly the time or place to bring up such resentments and/or accusations against us. Feel free to start one, and i will explain our actions in more detail, until then, keep the thread on topic.

Danathur, first let me say thank you, for engaging in what has clearly proved to be a hostile community, i'm sure you can understand our outbursts and frustrations from months of being told "soon" and seeing nothing done. Those of us who have been hanging on by a thread, are really just waiting to see something, anything, which shows of progress. I'm sure server side optimizations are needed, and great, but since i am not able to see how that effects me, i frankly am not impressed. I think i can stand to speak for the rest of the community in saying a lot of us would prefer seeing something in the way of progress, even if its a half finished feature, just so we have the optimism of hoping for the future.

In beta;
we had quality and tooltips turned on - which have now been turned off
we had tree and grass regrowth - which have now been turned off
we had animals respawning in some form of AI - which have now been turned off

So while there are those who want to bash the few who are expressing their dissatisfaction with the fact that we are indeed further behind then when we were in our beta stage, understand that i personally, am not wholely dissatisfied with the game as a whole, only with the lack of updates, communication, and visual progress.

Updates are supposed to happen every Wednesday as that is the scheduled patch day, and i dont recall seeing any patch within the last 6 weeks. Other than the supposed animal AI one... which is hard to believe as animal behavior hasnt changed.

Communication is at an absolute standstill for the playerbase. While we have had Dezgard to talk to in IRC, and guides responding to some threads on the forums, the fact still remains that there is little to no internal communication between the developers. No one seems to know about anything, so trying to communicate anything other than nonsensical soliloquies is excruciatingly painful for the community.

Visual progress to represent actual feature progress, and not the updated graphics that are supposed to quell the masses, sure, its pretty, but completely unnecessary.

So while there are those of us that appreciate your tenacity, the game is already a ghost town, and i sincerely hope that there are changed on the nearby horizon that are communicated to us, since 'soon' is not a viable answer any longer, or this game will be non existent in the near future. Most tribes dont even bother to log in any more, and half of ours is on extended leave until things change.

[Dirt]

Danathur, sorry about the asshats bitching at you. Would have been nice if you had at least been able to settle in to your new desk before these losers started beaking off. There is an ignore option on these forums and it was put there to ignore these boobs (retards). They used to teach us that "the customer is always right", but that was twenty years ago and the general respect level in our society has become downright deplorable. When customers come into my shop and start acting mouthy, i tell them to leave, i dont ask them to leave , i tell them to leave. I dont want their money nor do i want to see their faces again. Keeps it simple and hopefully (but doubtfully) they do a little introspective character analysis and learn a little about themselves when the door finishes hitting them in the ass. Again, sorry about these mouthy know-it-alls, its embarrassing reading their posts. Good luck to you.
EDIT; looks as though the ignore function in accounts section of forums is for in-game ignore list only. Sorry bout that!

[halldorr]

Updates are supposed to happen every Wednesday as that is the scheduled patch day, and i dont recall seeing any patch within the last 6 weeks.

I believe Wednesdays just have that time slot reserved in case there is an update and not that one is scheduled every Wednesday but your point still remains.

[Azhul_NS]

I believe Wednesdays just have that time slot reserved in case there is an update and not that one is scheduled every Wednesday but your point still remains.

NO patches in six weeks? Tell me that isn't true.

[Danathur]

NO patches in six weeks? Tell me that isn't true.

It is not true.

[halldorr]

NO patches in six weeks? Tell me that isn't true.

Huh? Do you mean the previous six weeks? I merely commented on the server update schedule dezgard posted in.

[xyberviri]

Hello and Welcome Danathur,
+1 on that response back to the community i got a good laugh out of that.

[Danathur]

I did a quick check, here is what I found:

April 16 2011 2:30 AM PST

Hello everyone! The server is up with an update. This should fix the server crashes that we had the past few days. We'll be monitoring closely as usual for problems. Hopefully this build is now stable and we can move on to more interesting tasks.

With this update, we've turned the new animal AI back on and reverted all other server optimizations.


If you want to look it up yourself visit:
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/1440-Xsyon-Updates

And it is correct, Wednesday is reserved as a patchday not meaning we will patch every wednesday ...
I will also give you more information about what has been done in the past later. But first I would like to concentrate on the future cause I can not change the past.

I am thankful for all the good wishes I recieved in this thread and I hope, my first "RFC" (request for comment) for the weekend will show you, that we are very serious with our intentions to improve the communication.

[Azhul_NS]

Well frankly, you SHOULD be patching every week. IF you want players to see that improvements ARE being made. Words mean nothing.

Fix SOMETHING. Add SOMETHING.

[Hanover]

Well frankly, you SHOULD be patching every week. IF you want players to see that improvements ARE being made. Words mean nothing.

Fix SOMETHING. Add SOMETHING.

Youve been here what 4 days? Now!!! Now!!!Now!!!

[xyberviri]

Make it so you have to download a 0.0b file every Wednesday so the people who dont understand what maintenance windows are stop complaining about the patch Wednesday thing.

[Azhul_NS]

Make it so you have to download a 0.0b file every Wednesday so the people who dont understand what maintenance windows are stop complaining about the patch Wednesday thing.

Is that your way of saying that you are fine with Xsyon remaining in its current state indefinitely?

[Hanover]

Make it so you have to download a 0.0b file every Wednesday so the people who dont understand what maintenance windows are stop complaining about the patch Wednesday thing.

Then they'd bitch about the lack of patch notes. :p

[Danathur]

First I should implement valium I guess and spawn it near to you guys :)

Azhul has to right to demand weekly updates ...

We have the right to say, we will deliver when we think we are ready ...

No need to start any flames on this ... save it :)

[Hanover]

No need to start any flames on this ... save it :)

But its the only viable PvP at the moment. :p

[Banok]

I like this guy, I truly hope he delivers. I haven't really seen any content added to this game since I bought it before release, so I haven't logged on. maybe thats because THERE ARE NO PATCH NOTES! seriously can't call yourself professionals until you write some patch notes.

[xyberviri]

I like this guy, I truly hope he delivers. I haven't really seen any content added to this game since I bought it before release, so I haven't logged on. maybe thats because THERE ARE NO PATCH NOTES! seriously can't call yourself professionals until you write some patch notes.

well no patch notes in the launcher, that page that goes to the updates should be changed to a updateable page that doesn't have to be done on the webserver itself.

[AngelusDD]

You also think manual parry/block are "too complicated". :rolleyes:

yes and no. but good that you read my other posts. :)

manual block is not too complicated in gameplay terms. but it gives an advantage to a player with a better ping. => that however would make this rpg more like fps.
and especially this game is hosted on servers which automatically give most (or all?) german (or even eu-continental?) players a ping of 125ms. route tracing locates this problem to a node server in London area before it leaves the continent.
while i know most americans have between 30-40ms. perhaps you are not aware of that.

but back on your topic (which is actually off-topic in this thread): a siege mechanic which describes as "[...]So no instant destruction is possible, an attacker will have to visit you in a timframe you decide to finally steal your stuff[...]" is a little bit strange. so i said i will wait for a proper announcement of that mechanic before i will judge it any further.
I however thank you for your continious attention on my comments.

[shava]

It is not the 'job' of paying customers to fix or promote that for which they are paying. It is their right to express disatisfaction with a defective product or service.

It is the job of those who are being paid to please their customers, lest they stop paying.

Doesn't this just epitomize why governments and local communities all over the world are going to hell? "We paid taxes! Why should we possibly have any further need to contribute to community?"

A "Massive Multiplayer" game is a community. The smaller and indier, the more so.

If you want a static game that doesn't grow or change or make you deal with other people, go buy KOTOR for $5.95 on D2D or something. Game design and game communities are as much about "making sausages" as politics is, and all politics being local it means its about our *virtually* local connections with one another as players and with the devs as the people attempting to be all things to all people and still making things work.

We are not here to kill ten rats, or to climb a PvP leaderboard. There are other games for that. The story of Xsyon is going to be twofold: in game, there is a story to discover, and to a much larger extent than many games, a story to influence or create. Here in the forums, there is an opportunity for the people of good will and even tempers to help create the context for that story.

It should be patently obvious to anyone that Xsyon is that kind of metagame, where something new is being attempted. I have no inside line on the story of the game, but as a professional storyteller as a sideline (and a writer and game professional as my main things) I feel something experimental coming here and if I'm right, I can understand how explaining why you have to wait would spoil the story (could be completely wrong tho...I have been before).

If that is not your game, yes, likely, you should stop paying and leave the work/play to those who are playing *this* game.

Happily, although death and taxes may be inevitable in the real world, online you can avoid both by just up and moving on. That means you don't have to linger if you feel you aren't getting your money's worth, rather than bitching and having to move your family and emigrating and...

Really it's very simple. You are right, it is not the job of paying customers to fix or promote what they are paying for -- UNLESS the thing you are paying for is experimental and you want to be part of that experiment, contributing to the adventure, and so on.

Game mechanics are, to a large extent, the things that lubricate adventure and storytelling in MMOs. Less so in pure PvP environments -- which this is not -- where story is secondary to game mechanics.

Jordi has a vision, and Denathur is acting as his lieutenant to have an ear between the vision and the implementation. The games programmers under him may know games development better than he does, but project management -- especially when implementing a vision of a game, which is an essentially artistic process -- takes a bunch of talents that don't have to do necessarily with the number of languages or years in a particular industry. Project managers in entertainment (which games is) for technical projects need the following areas of expertise:

Ability to bridge executive to operative needs (what the CEO wants and what is possible at the implementation/programming/business/CS level)
Ability to translate a CEO's vision to practical plans and schedules
Ability to anticipate QA issues before they reach deployment, managing the testers with imagination and simulation of multiple criteria
Ability to herd cats -- to keep people to a development methodology, to get them to document, to keep communications lines open so deadlines are not missed, modules work together, change A doesn't step on change B, and interpersonal feuds are kept out of the codestore and schedules.

Those things aren't really something that shows up on a resume or in a persons perhaps modest description of their skills. I wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd come in and said, "I am the GOD of programmers, look on me and weep!" Instead he was polite and modest and got smacked.

I would so much rather have someone who can do good project management on this game (which I suspect has been lacking) than someone with some specific narrow programming expertise. Whether that's the case -- whether we'll find the cats herded more efficiently -- only time will tell.

But regardless it will be months of paying-for-beta. I've accepted that and decided it's likely worth it.

Shava/Ani

[Azhul_NS]

A very pretty story, but it boils down to fanboy rationalization.

The community is the players. The devs are the employees. They are not our friends. They are people we are doing business with.

Coming up with romantic excuses for sloppy work is why MMOs are in such a sorry state in general.

[oneyedwang]

It is not true.

Well not really....


there was that one patch that crashed the server for two days and they were gonna roll back to a previous build.....

Added after 5 minutes:


When it was supposed that this "team" had won a FFA, the guide demanded they kill each other. I stayed in hiding.



I killed jenny, I don't remember anyone else claiming to have killed anyone else.
Our main concerns after that event is that we were told to fight by the people running the event that we were the last people left.

The raccoon event crashed the server and had us loading entities for about 40 mins and this event the guides had no idea what was going on.
Both were examples of poor planning and horrible execution by both the lead guide and others.

Why you took this so personally I have no idea. lol

[orious13]

---

I am glad that you are keeping your cool now a little cooler.
Most people say something (bitchy/constructive/or otherwise) and get flamed and flame back and flame back...this is why we have no trees in Xsyon at the moment. Gawd...damn forest fires. It's freakin california. What should we expect?

BUT ... there is a flame war forum section :) for any one or more people that need to rip off their shirts.

[shava]

A very pretty story, but it boils down to fanboy rationalization.

The community is the players. The devs are the employees. They are not our friends. They are people we are doing business with.

Coming up with romantic excuses for sloppy work is why MMOs are in such a sorry state in general.

Depends what you are looking for in an MMO. The demand for unchallenging perfection (WOW clones) is IMHO what is responsible for the sorry state. Well, and the prevalence of grind mechanics in F2P. I'd put slowly maturing innovative sloppiness WAY low on my list.

Like I said, want perfection? Go try EA/Activision or something. They have a policy that their devs may not have fun at work, and it makes for games that reflect that by selecting for devs that don't like fun. And they still have issues -- any changing codestore with more than a couple million lines of code is going to have issues. But they won't have issues like someone trying something that's not a solved problem.

Cheers!
Shava/Ani

[orious13]

They have a policy that their devs may not have fun at work, and it makes for games that reflect that by selecting for devs that don't like fun.


?
????
???????

(Sorry needed 10 chars)

[Malivius]

I think what Shava's saying is that it's all great and grand for people to complain about the performance and slow-update issues with Xsyon (which I myself have done), but that we need to keep in context what's going on here. These guys are doing things that are totally new and unique to this game...as opposed making a game with 100 braindead developers who work for peanuts and are only interested in making the corporate entity more money.

Jordi and the rest of the team LOVE this game and want nothing more than to see it succeed...of that I have no doubt. It's a pain to be patient and wait, but I think it'll be worth it.

If mass-produced WoW-type games with devs knocking out carbon copies of the same crap content were the ideal gaming world, we wouldn't be here right now...

[Belight]

Interesting topics going on here.

Shava, I've book marked your website. I may e-mail you in the not too distant future.

I have dreams of being an MMORPG Game Director and have been spending most my free time documenting features, story, art (Im an artist), and core mechanics. I'm currently trying to gather knowledge, connections, and general resources of the industry/community.

[ColonelTEE3]

Well not really....


there was that one patch that crashed the server for two days and they were gonna roll back to a previous build.....

Added after 5 minutes:



I killed jenny, I don't remember anyone else claiming to have killed anyone else.
Our main concerns after that event is that we were told to fight by the people running the event that we were the last people left.

The raccoon event crashed the server and had us loading entities for about 40 mins and this event the guides had no idea what was going on.
Both were examples of poor planning and horrible execution by both the lead guide and others.

Why you took this so personally I have no idea. lol

I have a video recording of Tryste and Agayek claiming to have killed me once i revealed myself actually. But dont worry, I've taken nothing personally. I've only been remarking on my experiences interacting with members of your tribe in IRC, in game, and on the forums. I do suggest you remove who ever "lol" is (irc name) as they give your tribe a worse image than you probably want. I don't think ive ever seen a more pathetic display of tears than someone contesting the actual game logs themselves against the guides who checked them.

But, as your cool headed tribemate stated earlier, i won't further judge your entire tribe on my experiences with a select few. I apologize.

ps. why didn't you just have your whole tribe hide, and then pop out 1 by one to reveal jenny, myself and canaan?

[oneyedwang]

ps. why didn't you just have your whole tribe hide, and then pop out 1 by one to reveal jenny, myself and canaan?

You mean why didn't we just assume that the guides had no idea what was going on at their own event and ignore them when they told us to fight? Dunno after the coon event we should of eh..

I'm the one who was bitching in IRC and I fail to see how you took away anything more than someone fustrated with getting shafted by the guides once again. But yes, pathetic display of tears...lol
There is alot of backstory with our tribe and some of the guides that goes far beyond guide events that dabbles in the realm of guide misconduct. We don't speak about the events publically because while making posts like mine earlier are "fun" that is pr the guides don't need. Many of the guides are great guides and do their best to fullfill the role of a guide while others have not. They have made strides to weed alot of that out and from what we know our problems along those lines are gone and they are monitoring the guides much better now, in short there is alot you don't know:P

[Virtus]

off topic

locked