It's a dead end...

[SpeechMan]

Ok, step one, I'm bored and I need some writing practice, so I'll write this. You all have probably seen more than enough of threads like this, but if you are as bored as I am, you'll have time to read it. If not, feel free to move on.

Now that's out of the way, let's move to the actual post. Although I bought Xsyon before release, I was busy with some work related issues so I wasn't able to actually play right away. That's why I'm writing this so late.

Right from the start I decided to go solo, so I picked skill that would best support that: Toolcraft. After entering the world it was time to think up some goals for myself.

Goal 1: A homestead
I started in Sugar Pine. Finding a suitable place for homestead seemed like a dreadful job at first. Not so much because much of the land is taken, but more because there is no clear indication for where you can place your totem. So I ended up running around suitable locations while spamming the "Place totem"-button. Finally I hit a free spot and there I had it. Nice spot of land, close to water and junk piles.
Goal 1: check.
Time spent: ~0.5 hour.

Goal 2: Tools
Just like finding a place for homestead, this one seemed just as dreadful a job. That was until I got the recipe for Scrapper's lasher. After that it was simple and dull. Just gather scrap plastic, craft, throw away the finished lashers and repeat. Finally I decided I got all the recipes I need and decided to move on.
Goal 2:check.
Time spent: ~2 hours.

Goal 3: Baskets
I really needed baskets to put my stuff in. I had the tools needed so all I needed was the skill. Lots of grass around so this should be a snap, right. Right? After a long, long, long grind I decided to give up. Since crafting baskets was out of the question, I was left with the option to trade for them. Luckily, there was a fellow player nearby who sold me some baskets for bunch of screws and rivets. Since I didn't have any use for either, the price was good for me and few minutes later my camp had 3 nice baskets.
Goal 3:check.
Time spent ~8 hours.

Sidenote: At some point I got unconfirmed information that unless you choose Basketry as your starting profession, you can't get the recipes for baskets. So all that time spent grinding was for nothing.

Goal 4: The camp
I already got the baskets, now it's time to build some sort of shelter around them. Laying the projects took a few minutes, so all I need to do is gather the materials. This project is still a work in progress, been that way since I realised that after the camp is done, I'm pretty much out of things to do.

So here I stand, inside a partially finished camp, with no incentive to finish it since that would leave me with nothing to do ...It's a dead end...

Now, here are some what if's that could keep the game going:

1) What if there was item degrade, all of the stuff I have and use would degrade over time and/or use, so I would have to make new ones, or at least repair existing ones. But since there isn't, I alreade have all I need and want forever and ever.

2) What if the fish was not enough to feed me. That would force me to go out hunting to get me some meat for lunch. But as long as I can get all the nourishment I need from the fish just few steps away from my totem, why should I go hunting?

3) What if the water got from the lake and streams wouldn't be good enough, that would force me to create a well, that would also need maintenance and parts, giving me one more thing to take care of.

4) What if we run out of resources. Although this won't happen without item degrade, in conjunction with it, it would create a situation where I would need to pack up and move somewhere else to be able to continue crafting.

All in all, Xsyon is a nice sandbox, unfortunately it's filled with dry sand and no toys so all you can do is stack up the sand to create a pyramid. After that you can continue making pyramids or move on. For me, well it's "free" for a while longer, but once the free time is used up, unless the game gets something to create new goals on, you won't be seeing me around.

[Larsa]

Good post, and you mention many things that I agree with. I'm playing Xsyon since February and still have lots of things to do although I've probably put upwards of 100 hours into the game by now. Thus the game is no dead end for me, far from that, but I can see how the game might feel that way for other people.

I agree with you that it is laughably easy to achieve things in Xsyon. The idea was that it should be the story of a struggling survivor, but instead it's a leisurely stroll in the park. Resources are overabundant, few resources are needed anyway (unless one builds limestone walls, hehe), nothing is scarce and he who has a fishing rod will never feel hungry - and being hungry isn't a big deal anyway.

That's partly because many features aren't yet in-game (you already mentioned item decay), but partly it's also because the crafting system lacks any reasonable complexity: I can learn all recipes for toolcraft just by standing on a single piece of rock and making wrenches from granite all day? Not counting now that making a wrench from a single piece of rock is an act of overnatural magic anyway.

But partly the reason that the game's a dead end for you is also your playstyle: you rammed your totem into the ground after half an hour, you grinded toolcraft to get some recipes for 2 hours, you got three baskets and placed a few basic projects on your land (can only be very basic projects because as toolcrafter you would only know the most basic architecture recipes). Yep, you're done. You set yourself some very basic goals, you achieved these goals, you're done.

Unless you find more than basic goals that is. But that's something that depends as much on your playstyle as it depends on what the game offers.

[Edit: changed strange choice of words]

[Throne]

You're missing quite a few "goals" in there bud.

1. Kill everyone that looks at you funny
2. Create an empire
3. Kill all other empires
4. Build a grand structure to commemorate your supreme dominance
5. Kill off all empires created while you were building grand structure

There are many additional goals to put down, but I don't have all freakin day

[Mactavendish]

Many if not all the things usually listed and causing boredom will be fixed very soon.

It seems true that what folks expect from reading the official site, is not what they are finding, then they get told by burned out beta players that everything is pointless, they don't believe things will changes... blah blah, then these new and excited players leave before they even give the game a try.

Trees, animals, and decay along with comfort will create much needed relief. It may also help with the negativity that seems so rampant lately.

Patience is a virtue they say, and it would be nice if most players were virtuous, but in today's MMO's they have all been trained to have instant result and easy buttons galore. This game by it's very nature will never be like that. It will be a learning process, a struggle just to patience to wait till what you want is turned on.

I hope more will keep busy upping stats and skills, building cool towns and outposts, learn to lvl land like a pro, and try hard to develop relationships with their neighbors.

[SpeechMan]

You're missing quite a few "goals" in there bud.

1. Kill everyone that looks at you funny
2. Create an empire
3. Kill all other empires
4. Build a grand structure to commemorate your supreme dominance
5. Kill off all empires created while you were building grand structure

There are many additional goals to put down, but I don't have all freakin day

While I agree those are decent goals, they are for player who wants everything massive. Like I mentioned in my post, I'm going solo, all I need is a nice little camp to build my fortune out from. I was prepared to be hard pressed to get anything, but instead I got everything I needed too fast and easy.

Yes, I could start grinding architechture to gain more advanced buildings for my camp, but since there is nothing gained from that (except the buildings, of course), I lack the incentive to do so.

So in the end, everything in xsyon is just too simple and random. Why should I grind for master chisel, when standard chisel does the job just as good. And even if I did decide to get myself that master chisel, getting it would mean just crafting more lashers until the random number feed hits and I get the recipe.

[Azhul_NS]

I had a similar starting experience as the OP. Started as toolcrafter, because I wanted to try all the proffesions. After a few hours, I deleted and rerolled as basketmaker, because Xsyon is BRUTAL without plenty of containers. I have been grinding toolcrafting a LOT, because there is harldy anyone on in my area, and nothing they need for me to trade them for the tools I don't have.

Xsyon is way too safe, way too grindy, and way too lonely. They will have to make a couple fo major improvements to keep me paying.

It's not up to US to make Xsyon worth playing - it's up to the people we are paying.

[boomer0901]

I had a similar starting experience as the OP. Started as toolcrafter, because I wanted to try all the proffesions. After a few hours, I deleted and rerolled as basketmaker, because Xsyon is BRUTAL without plenty of containers. I have been grinding toolcrafting a LOT, because there is harldy anyone on in my area, and nothing they need for me to trade them for the tools I don't have.

Xsyon is way too safe, way too grindy, and way too lonely. They will have to make a couple fo major improvements to keep me paying.

It's not up to US to make Xsyon worth playing - it's up to the people we are paying.

Well I don't argree with all of that, this is a sandbox, once we are given the tools to shape the game properly will you still complain that the devs didn't tell you want to do? Once the tools are in it's our job to make the world not the devs, that's why it's a SANDBOX and not WoW. Right now yes for 100ish or so post yes xyson is far from complete and right now pretty damn boring. We don't have the proper tools atm to shape the world. But once we do this should be a pretty decent game (if, should, could, be, all unknowns so far)

[MrDDT]

I had a similar starting experience as the OP. Started as toolcrafter, because I wanted to try all the proffesions. After a few hours, I deleted and rerolled as basketmaker, because Xsyon is BRUTAL without plenty of containers. I have been grinding toolcrafting a LOT, because there is harldy anyone on in my area, and nothing they need for me to trade them for the tools I don't have.

Xsyon is way too safe, way too grindy, and way too lonely. They will have to make a couple fo major improvements to keep me paying.

It's not up to US to make Xsyon worth playing - it's up to the people we are paying.

I dont agree with boomer often, so when I do agree you might want to see why.
One thing I do agree is that the tools is all we are asking for, its up to the players to make the rest of the game fun. If the tools are in place (which currently they are not) then players in a sandbox type of game is what drives the rest of the game.

Having said that I do agree with some of your points.
Grind to me is a double edge blade. One hand I like "grinding" type of skills but not when its just straight boring. Ive said this before, reward people for being active. Dont just have them mindlessly clicking the key over and over.
The game is safe right now for 2 reasons.
1)Its the start of the game giving people a chance to build up.
2)Combat is broke.
Im sure later there will be lots of unsafe areas and reason to be in these areas.

[Mactavendish]

I like that idea of there being unsafe areas, and reasons to be there.

Like the ONLY place to get the best resources are the ruined hardware store remains and that destroyed gun shop over in the danger filled abandoned town to the north east.

Whether its zombies, mutant animals, or a tribe of head hunting pk'ers, skills and knowledge and patience along with a good measure of pounding heart, makes for an exciting game indeed.

It's not only PvP'ers that need high hide skill and maxed stats, it's also those that plan on doing master level crafting or those that love to explore, have found many ultra-rares, and are just trying to get home.

I have confidence that Jordi and crew will pull this off. May not be as fast as some would like, but it will happen. In the mean time, We are working on all our stats, Skills and crafting, and building up a nice comfortable home base to work out of.

I am as busy as can be... not sure what anyone else's problems are really.

[Dubanka]

this discussion has a been had so many times before it's not worth the effort to have again.

[Phazaar]

this discussion has a been had so many times before it's not worth the effort to have again.

QFT.

It's sad to say it but... The forums have been more fun than the game for the last 6 weeks... But Xsy-forumwarriorsonline-on is now into its 'endgame death cycle', and there desperately needs to be something to stop this painfully slow spiral into obscurity...

[MrDDT]

QFT.

It's sad to say it but... The forums have been more fun than the game for the last 6 weeks... But Xsy-forumwarriorsonline-on is now into its 'endgame death cycle', and there desperately needs to be something to stop this painfully slow spiral into obscurity...

Until a big patch, then the forums will be anew with all sorts of other topics like "Balance" and "Bugs" =P

[orious13]

Add permadeath to Xsyon Forum Wars?

[Shrimps]

While I agree those are decent goals, they are for player who wants everything massive. Like I mentioned in my post, I'm going solo, all I need is a nice little camp to build my fortune out from. I was prepared to be hard pressed to get anything, but instead I got everything I needed too fast and easy.

Yes, I could start grinding architechture to gain more advanced buildings for my camp, but since there is nothing gained from that (except the buildings, of course), I lack the incentive to do so.

So in the end, everything in xsyon is just too simple and random. Why should I grind for master chisel, when standard chisel does the job just as good. And even if I did decide to get myself that master chisel, getting it would mean just crafting more lashers until the random number feed hits and I get the recipe.

Well theres two things to think about here.

1. We're in the prelude, which means we're creating the world, things are supposed to be overabundant. AT the end of an apocalypse there would be tons of scrap material and an abundance of stuff to survive.

2. Some systems are not yet implemented.

Now when we get past the prelude, after we've set up our little towns and we've used up most of the scrap, that's where the story starts. It gets harder to find things that used to be everywhere and some items may disappear forever for all we know. The walls that kept you safe are falling apart and there is nothing left to repair them with. The area you had lived in so long begins to attract the attention of mutants and zombies. The world changes.

Jordi has said the prelude is a time for shaping the world and building it up so there will be something. Surviving starts afterwards.

[orious13]

Well theres two things to think about here.

1. We're in the prelude, which means we're creating the world, things are supposed to be overabundant. AT the end of an apocalypse there would be tons of scrap material and an abundance of stuff to survive.



Especially if 80-90% of the population died off....

[siimp]

/.../ 1. We're in the prelude, which means we're creating the world, things are supposed to be overabundant. AT the end of an apocalypse there would be tons of scrap material and an abundance of stuff to survive. /.../
But how can we great the world and build towns/cities when the tribal area system is not growing? How hard can it be to fix a little bug like that? I have 23 members in the tribe and we are stuck with the Band size tribal territory... And its impossible to reset the totem because people are living in different time zones. I have tried to reset the totem three times now, and every time something goes wrong. Last time we had major breakthrough and we managed to set the Band totem instead of homestead totem, thats all (while doing that we lost around 20 members). Then we built new castle and after that its a dead end again. No point in inviting the new members since we cant have more land anyway before we reset the totem again. I think that they should fix some really nasty bugs before they do something else (like add more bugs with bigger patch). If the prelude is all about the building and setting up, then they should do everything to let us expand and build. I have been sitting and waiting for a month now (it was over a month ago when i first reported about this bug, and they already knew about this bug back then).

[orious13]

But how can we great the world and build towns/cities when the tribal area is not growing? How hard can it be to fix a little bug like that? I have 23 members in the tribe and we are stuck with the Band size tribal territory... And its impossible to reset the totem because people are living in different time zones. I have tried to reset the totem three times now, and every time something goes wrong. Last time we had major breakthrough and we managed to set the Band totem instead of homestead totem, thats all (while doing that we lost around 20 members). Then we built new castle and after that its a dead end again. No point in inviting the new members since we cant have more land anyway before we reset the totem again. I think that they should fix some really nasty bugs before they do something else (like add more bugs with bigger patch). If the prelude is all about the building and setting up, then they should do everything to let us expand and build.

If you're talking about having to replace a totem after having reached the correct tribe size then the reason is the following:

The totems don't/can't/or shouldn't overlap. Placing your totem "reserves" the max size of whatever totem type you have. It used to be 10 people needed to have a tribe sized place that reserved the maximum possible area...homestead area was <9. So it was changed into the <5, <10, <20 thing we have now or however it's done. So because of how coding works in real life and how the encroachment system works, having overlapping tribes or totem areas is probably a bad thing and could probably break stuff at the moment. So when one reaches the tribe size that allows them to set the next sized totem, they have to abandon their reserved plot and place the new totem down IF there's enough space for the next max size. It's like this so that a smaller amount of people (<5 or <10) don't have an area that's made for 20+ when they may not take advantage of this area.

Now there is one thing that's wrong with totems is that everyone gets booted from the tribe when you abandon (right?). If this is the bug you are talking about then it's probably not a bug, it's just how things are working right now. If you're talking about why you have to abandon your totem (whether people get booted or not) to "unlock" a large amount of land, the overlapping of tribe encroachment zones is the reason.

When people get too big in one area, they move somewhere else that can accommodate their increasing size (1 room apartment tenant move to a 4 bedroom house etc.).

[fotuenti]

The totems don't/can't/or shouldn't overlap. Placing your totem "reserves" the max size of whatever totem type you have. It used to be 10 people needed to have a tribe sized place that reserved the maximum possible area...homestead area was <9. So it was changed into the <5, <10, <20 thing we have now or however it's done. So because of how coding works in real life and how the encroachment system works, having overlapping tribes or totem areas is probably a bad thing and could probably break stuff at the moment. So when one reaches the tribe size that allows them to set the next sized totem, they have to abandon their reserved plot and place the new totem down IF there's enough space for the next max size. It's like this so that a smaller amount of people (<5 or <10) don't have an area that's made for 20+ when they may not take advantage of this area.

this explains why you might not be able to expand if others are nearby, but it seems to me it would be easy to implement tribal area expansion when no other tribes are nearby. my question is, why can't the tribal expansion code just check to see if any other tribe's area collides with the newly requested area, and if there are no collisions expand the area, and if there are collisions print an error message to the console. this seems pretty easy to me.

[orious13]

this explains why you might not be able to expand if others are nearby, but it seems to me it would be easy to implement tribal area expansion when no other tribes are nearby. my question is, why can't the tribal expansion code just check to see if any other tribe's area collides with the newly requested area, and if there are no collisions expand the area, and if there are collisions print an error message to the console. this seems pretty easy to me.

Put that in the suggestion section.

[fotuenti]

Put that in the suggestion section.

done, and i even added some pseudo-code to help ;)