Some critics

[yantal_Oh]

Hello, i'm in Xsyon for 3-4 days. I have walked and swimmed a lot, all around the Lake, to find a good area to put on my totem. I saw some things which hurt me and give some desperate feeling. First, it's a big lack of trees (i'm a logger and woodworker). A totem is there for each tree. It's impossible to log. If you want to, you must climb over 600 high, and it's not sure, there's people and totems everywhere. An other problem, i break my ass in a lot of holes (terraforming) here and there, someones you cant go out of them. The environment is some times very ugly, terraformed in a very bad way. My question is : is terraforming a good thing (out of cleaning and plan a little bit the area), because the environment is not the property of just ones, but of all the gamers (this game isn't a free one, i've bought it and pay a monthly fee as everybody i think).

[Dzarren]

Welcome m8,

in my area its still quitte ok, a lot of trees still there.
you are welcome in 697 if you like
Also not too much terraforming and some friendly tribes nearby

[Virtus]

all the trees got chopped down, cuz somebody didn't conserve <_<

[Ferigad]

Well at the moment the regrowth of trees seams not to work very well.... we wait allready like 4 weeks and still no new trees growth back. Hope it change with the new database system for tree storage ;)

But change the region should be the only possible quick solution at the moment.

[MrDDT]

To OP:
Yes right now the world is lacking a lot of trees mostly because of 2 things. 1)Tree growth is turned off, in the next patch regrowth of trees and farmlands are set to be put into place. 2)The game has just been released (1.5 months ago) so everyone is going through a building phase. The areas you went around too are where most people are (starting areas around the lakes) if you go outside these areas you will start to see more trees.
Many trees are needed to build up your tribelands. So people had to cut them down, also people have been cutting them down for skill gains and other reasons. Once tree planting and regrowth is turned on, I think we will start to see a very lush land again.

Terraforming is a problem, but dont forget people can only terraform on the totem area. So they had to place a totem down to change that landscape. Some of these tribes are 100% inactive, so you will start seeing some of these areas go public once decay of totems is turned on, allowing people to reclaim the areas and fix or change them.

[Azhul_NS]

To OP:
Yes right now the world is lacking a lot of trees mostly because of 2 things. 1)Tree growth is turned off, in the next patch regrowth of trees and farmlands are set to be put into place. 2)The game has just been released (1.5 months ago) so everyone is going through a building phase. The areas you went around too are where most people are (starting areas around the lakes) if you go outside these areas you will start to see more trees.
Many trees are needed to build up your tribelands. So people had to cut them down, also people have been cutting them down for skill gains and other reasons. Once tree planting and regrowth is turned on, I think we will start to see a very lush land again.

Terraforming is a problem, but dont forget people can only terraform on the totem area. So they had to place a totem down to change that landscape. Some of these tribes are 100% inactive, so you will start seeing some of these areas go public once decay of totems is turned on, allowing people to reclaim the areas and fix or change them.

"2)The game has just been released (1.5 months ago)"

You don't seriously think that is an excuse for core features to be missing/buggy, do you? These things should have been fixed/implemented in BETA.

[MrDDT]

"2)The game has just been released (1.5 months ago)"

You don't seriously think that is an excuse for core features to be missing/buggy, do you? These things should have been fixed/implemented in BETA.


I dont think that should be a reason no. I didnt even say that was the reason. I said that the first release of a game like this causes everyone to go into a building phase. Which stresses the resources in those areas. Over time the resources will be fine at a normal growth.

Even if you look at other games like Rift, or Lineage 2. On release they pushed up the respawn rate to 500% for the few 3 weeks. They do this because there are so many peoples in those lower areas they need much higher respawn. However, after 3+ weeks (times longer) they dont need it that high and lower it back to normal rates.

Here, because the system is broken it makes the problem seem worse than it really is. If this was in the middle of the gaming stage then you wouldnt even really care, most of your town would have been built up, and you might even have stock piles of timber. But because this was at release with these issues, it exacerbated the problem.

[Phatkat]

with the next patch they are going to fix this, possibly even reset all the trees.
Or so i have read on a post by one of the devs

[Book]

A lot of the trees in my area were taken out by clear-cutting which had nothing to do with local building.

1) The neighborhood was finally able to get enough people online at once to take out some macroed-to-godlike, PO-axe wielding gankers that had been griefing the area. They didn't like losing that one time out of all the times they came over, so they came back when no players were around and clear-cut an entire forest, destroying all the lumber and stumps.

2) I lived near the altar during the raccoon event. After the event, some folks who were either bored, upset about the lag, or simply wanted to farm they logging creds, and thus took out many, many trees around the altar. They did leave the lumber this time, which is why I have more short logs than I need at the moment... but fact remains, they simply clear-cut an area far away from where they live. I know that because I know who it was and well, it happens.

Personally, I had been trying to cull trees in the area so that it would still look forested. Once the tools are in to grow new forests, that's what people will need to do.

Wouldn't it be great if people did learn concepts of conservation from this game? Unlikely :D but would be a cool social awareness tool.

[Mactavendish]

as a matter of fact, one of the posters in this thread was clearcutting on the pretence of leveling his logging.

Yes the game allows for evil players, yes everyone can be very self centered and show no concern for other players as if it is their sole game and all made for them alone.

But it is another aspect of how such mechanics can drive away players. With no trees to work with I personally know of players that quit the game for that reason alone.

We need a way to replant asap

Virtus saying that somebody didn't conserve is somewhat offensive as the mechanics not only allow for clear cutting, but even seem to encourage it.

i'm curious which someone he was referring to?

[Ferigad]

Well yeah it is true, there was allready in the beginnin time little wars around tree stumps and cutted down trees. Like DDT sayed it, wood is at the moment vital for the production process of a tribe. You can at least use clay walls or metal sheet walls for a defense perimenter, but many tools, weapons and buildings need wood in one or another way.

Didnt know that tree growth was shut off at the moment? I must have miss that post. But in this case, i had a very strange experience last day. I was travel 2 sectors away to finish a trade. Nothing special. But when i came back i found our fortress form the distance overgrowth with trees. At least it was what the system showed my from a bigger distance.

As soon i was closer to the Fortress, i saw the tree´s simply...dissepearing in thin air. Little bit strange indeed. But well we live in a strange world.

I personally look forward for zombies/undeads. At least a real thread that will (i hope!) move around the lands and bring havoc. Well at least i hope so ^^. If not well at least we got some nasty Zombies at some places. Some events around this zombies would be also cool *get big shiny eye´s!*

I agree that there should be ASAP the Tree problem fixed. And i agree we should work together to kill people who´s only intention is to bring chaos to this fragile world! :P

[mrcalhou]

I'm glad they're going to fix it. There's a reason why Eve resets asteroid belts during server downtime.

[MrDDT]

as a matter of fact, one of the posters in this thread was clearcutting on the pretence of leveling his logging.

Yes the game allows for evil players, yes everyone can be very self centered and show no concern for other players as if it is their sole game and all made for them alone.

But it is another aspect of how such mechanics can drive away players. With no trees to work with I personally know of players that quit the game for that reason alone.

We need a way to replant asap

Virtus saying that somebody didn't conserve is somewhat offensive as the mechanics not only allow for clear cutting, but even seem to encourage it.

i'm curious which someone he was referring to?

I agree with you here, these actions by players will happen and it should be limited by better systems in game, plus better punishments by players.
Right now even if an evil player were to do this, the players cant stop them well. Killing players is only a loss of a little bit of loot. Which that player can just get another axe (or maybe they have a preorder one and cant even lose it) respawn at their totem, and keep cutting trees again with almost no loss of items or time.

Trees should yield a LOT more resources, also they should take a LOT longer to cut down (like 10x longer).

Mac, Im sure you are talking about me, but I left all the resources on the ground. Those trees have not gone to waste. Once decay is in, then their might be a problem.One of the major problems here is that the ONLY way to level your logging skill is to cut down 1000s of trees. Im at 99 skill now. I dont even know how many trees it took but it was a LOT. Whole zones were cleared.

[Virtus]

I wasn't talking to anyone in particular as it wasn't 1 person's in particular fault

[Rudder]

Going by the game time-line, not a lot of time has passed since the collapse. So, there should be standing buildings, not junk piles.

However, since there are junk piles there should be a mass of trees; the area should be heavily forested. In fact you should have to chop down trees just to place a totem off of a road.

Hopefully when the tree's finally get respawned they come back into the game with a passion. At the same time I also hope decay is not turned on until several weeks after the return of the trees to allow time for usage of the resources.

[ocoma]

Mac, Im sure you are talking about me, but I left all the resources on the ground. Those trees have not gone to waste. Once decay is in, then their might be a problem.One of the major problems here is that the ONLY way to level your logging skill is to cut down 1000s of trees. Im at 99 skill now. I dont even know how many trees it took but it was a LOT. Whole zones were cleared.


I can vouch for this as I have spent the last 2 days leveling my woodcrafting. I was 13 when I left my tribeland in search of trees to level on. Didn't find any. However I am up to 67 woodcrafting now all of it on short logs that say MrDDT on them. Thanks for leaving the logs and not destroying them, they have been yummy. :-)

[Azhul_NS]

Trees should yield a LOT more resources, also they should take a LOT longer to cut down (like 10x longer).

Yes. Absolutely. I sometimes get the feeling that Xsyon is some sort of social experiment - a lesson in conservation and ecological management. Nothing wrong with that - IF I hadn't paid and been unaware of that intent.

ALL crafting/gathering (except drinking water) should take much longer. People think decay will 'fix' overabundance, but with the trivial time required to build/craft items, the decay rate would have to be ridiculous to keep up.


Mac, Im sure you are talking about me, but I left all the resources on the ground. Those trees have not gone to waste. Once decay is in, then their might be a problem.One of the major problems here is that the ONLY way to level your logging skill is to cut down 1000s of trees. Im at 99 skill now. I dont even know how many trees it took but it was a LOT. Whole zones were cleared.

WHY do that? Does that sound like FUN to you? It doesn't to me. I am saying that these insane grind rates are not right for a game.

For logging? Reduce the amount of trees needed for a skill up, but limit the character to one point a day.

[jemmus]

I personally look forward for zombies/undeads. At least a real thread that will (i hope!) move around the lands and bring havoc.
Me too, as long as they don't chop down trees...!

[Book]

For logging? Reduce the amount of trees needed for a skill up, but limit the character to one point a day.

This would remove some incentive to clear-cut. If I understand the mechanics correctly, folks who went around clearing entire zones of trees do now have the advantage being able to log higher quality wood.

Pretty strong incentive to clear-cut.

On the other hand, maybe planting trees will give us farming experience (who knows) at which point it would compensate for all the clear-cutting. Would be fun to see posts saying "what's with all the freakin' trees!"

[China]

I agree with you here, these actions by players will happen and it should be limited by better systems in game, plus better punishments by players.
Right now even if an evil player were to do this, the players cant stop them well. Killing players is only a loss of a little bit of loot. Which that player can just get another axe (or maybe they have a preorder one and cant even lose it) respawn at their totem, and keep cutting trees again with almost no loss of items or time.

Trees should yield a LOT more resources, also they should take a LOT longer to cut down (like 10x longer).

Mac, Im sure you are talking about me, but I left all the resources on the ground. Those trees have not gone to waste. Once decay is in, then their might be a problem.One of the major problems here is that the ONLY way to level your logging skill is to cut down 1000s of trees. Im at 99 skill now. I dont even know how many trees it took but it was a LOT. Whole zones were cleared.

I noticed you were into paving junk piles now. Which skill is it your are trying to lvl up? Terraforming?

China

[MrDDT]

I noticed you were into paving junk piles now. Which skill is it your are trying to lvl up? Terraforming?

China

Yes thats what paving skills up. Its pretty fast too.

[Book]

Yes thats what paving skills up. Its pretty fast too.

You could always be useful while leveling rather than destructive... :)

Folks need roads out there, why not trade your labor if it's about leveling... or simply undertake a project yourself... and don't tell me you level faster paving junkpiles :p

[MrDDT]

You could always be useful while leveling rather than destructive... :)

Folks need roads out there, why not trade your labor if it's about leveling... or simply undertake a project yourself... and don't tell me you level faster paving junkpiles :p

I am doing something good.
Also who says I wasnt paid?
Just because you are not privy to info doesnt mean it didnt happen.
Maybe people paid me to make roads near them?
Maybe another tribe paid me to pave a rival factions junk pile?
Maybe another tribe paid me to help pave junk piles due to the way that too many piles are effecting the market?
Maybe Im cornering the market it on junk and I need to remove other piles first.

You call it destructive, I call it a well thought out business plan.

[China]

You call it destructive, I call it a well thought out business plan.

You wouldn't know a business plan if it bit you on the arse.

[ocoma]

Denying resources to others is a valid tactic in a game featuring FFA Full Loot PvP, be it trees or whatever. Some may call it griefing but in reality it is strengthening one's own position both economically if they have resource stockpiles and tactically if you deny others the ability to build fortifications and equipment. We have already had multiple threads/complaints on this. Please lets not start this again.

[Rothkur]

In dawntide you may only skill up so far each period of time. It works great. Players have to diversify or find something else to do. They can't just spend 14 hours a day working on 1 skill to the detriment of everyone else.

[Book]

I am doing something good.
Also who says I wasnt paid?
Just because you are not privy to info doesnt mean it didnt happen.
Maybe people paid me to make roads near them?
Maybe another tribe paid me to pave a rival factions junk pile?
Maybe another tribe paid me to help pave junk piles due to the way that too many piles are effecting the market?
Maybe Im cornering the market it on junk and I need to remove other piles first.

You call it destructive, I call it a well thought out business plan.

hahaha :D

point taken :p

I like what Rothkur said though!

[Josluc]

Daniel , how come you have a "guest" account how does one aquire one of those

[Jadzia]

Denying resources to others is a valid tactic in a game featuring FFA Full Loot PvP, be it trees or whatever. Some may call it griefing but in reality it is strengthening one's own position both economically if they have resource stockpiles and tactically if you deny others the ability to build fortifications and equipment. We have already had multiple threads/complaints on this. Please lets not start this again.
Right now it doesn't serve any goal, its just pure annoyance and asshattery. Basic resources shouldn't be destroyable anyway imo...every player should have a chance to level up by them. Make them lacking and new players will leave since they won't find anything to do.

[MrDDT]

Right now it doesn't serve any goal, its just pure annoyance and asshattery. Basic resources shouldn't be destroyable anyway imo...every player should have a chance to level up by them. Make them lacking and new players will leave since they won't find anything to do.

Everyone has access to basic resources. Its about limited the resources.
I dont know why you think its "pure annoyance" when its limited the resources. If you have 0 trees in your area, and ocoma has 100s, well guess what? He has a resource YOU dont have, thus will promote trade. Maybe you have resources he doesnt have.

You need to look outside your little safezone box and understand how economy works. Strife and limited resources promote trade and economy. Create a need for something, and demand will go up. Limit the supply and it becomes more of a value.

Right now there is limited need, because supply is through the roof. Also demand is low, because of lacking of a many needs.

[Jadzia]

Everyone has access to basic resources. Its about limited the resources.
I dont know why you think its "pure annoyance" when its limited the resources. If you have 0 trees in your area, and ocoma has 100s, well guess what? He has a resource YOU dont have, thus will promote trade. Maybe you have resources he doesnt have.

You need to look outside your little safezone box and understand how economy works. Strife and limited resources promote trade and economy. Create a need for something, and demand will go up. Limit the supply and it becomes more of a value.

Right now there is limited need, because supply is through the roof. Also demand is low, because of lacking of a many needs.

I do believe you are wrong. If this would be some high level resource I'd agree with you. But you are caving and destroying junkpiles. Now imagine a new player enters the game and he can't find a junkpile due to your unselfish action. He can't trade because he has nothing to offer. He can't skill up because there are no materials to train with. What can he do ? To leave the game. Thats not good for anyone.

And about trading. How could I trade long logs with anyone lol...running with it is like slow motion and you can carry only 1. So if I wanted to buy 200 long logs who would carry it to me ? I would never be able to pay so much for people to carry it...so I'd just give up. That doesn't boost the economy because its kind of impossible.

Access to basic resources have to be easy for everyone, otherwise people can't play and can't progress. High level recipes and high level crafted items are the ones which need to be traded, and resources that are rare.

[Azhul_NS]

I do believe you are wrong. If this would be some high level resource I'd agree with you. But you are caving and destroying junkpiles. Now imagine a new player enters the game and he can't find a junkpile due to your unselfish action. He can't trade because he has nothing to offer. He can't skill up because there are no materials to train with. What can he do ? To leave the game. Thats not good for anyone.

Right. It isn't good, but it's not the players' fault. It's the way the game was made. So your wrath is misdirected.

[Jadzia]

Right. It isn't good, but it's not the players' fault. It's the way the game was made. So your wrath is misdirected.

I agree with you that its mainly a development mistake. I hope they will fix it, it would be a very very easy fix (just respawn trees fast and don't let people to build roads on junkpiles). But till then if someone do this its his fault as well.

[MrDDT]

I do believe you are wrong. If this would be some high level resource I'd agree with you. But you are caving and destroying junkpiles. Now imagine a new player enters the game and he can't find a junkpile due to your unselfish action. He can't trade because he has nothing to offer. He can't skill up because there are no materials to train with. What can he do ? To leave the game. Thats not good for anyone.

And about trading. How could I trade long logs with anyone lol...running with it is like slow motion and you can carry only 1. So if I wanted to buy 200 long logs who would carry it to me ? I would never be able to pay so much for people to carry it...so I'd just give up. That doesn't boost the economy because its kind of impossible.

Access to basic resources have to be easy for everyone, otherwise people can't play and can't progress. High level recipes and high level crafted items are the ones which need to be traded, and resources that are rare.

First off, you dont NEED a junk pile to get resources.
Second off if you couldnt find a junk pile then likely you didnt play but 2 seconds. If there were only 1 junk pile and it was controlled by a person you might have something to talk about, but there are 100s of junk piles all over the map. In the starting area there so many I cant even count them all. Its more than anywhere else. So you are talking in theory or practice? If I could pave over every junk pile you still wouldnt have a point because there are other resources other than junk piles that people can do and use. Then join a tribe with junk piles. Or trade labor for access to a junk pile.
Yes new players with out access to ANY resources might quit. But you shouldnt have 100s of these around the map. There is enough protected junk piles that new players have very very easy access too.

You should say "They should make some safe junk piles in each starting area" instead saying not to limit resources. Everyone has access to basic resources in game now. Its not about access its about limiting the amount. Im ok with access, Im not ok with how much there is. Right now there unlimited, and many many locations are unlimited. That's not good for economy.

Ive yet to hear any new player say "I cant find a junk pile" because I would call them out on it. You should try making a new toon and see how close junk piles are to EVERY starting area.

Are you now telling me that junk piles are the only way to kill up skills?

Please learn how trading and economy works.

Next logs yes, and Im missing your point. You know that woodcutting is a skill in game right? Logs are NOT the only resource from trees.
Even if they were logs CAN be traded if the need is high enough. I myself have hauled logs pretty far down mts for a tribe. They paid me to do it.

Im not going to disagree that carts or some way to export items that are heavy like logs and bricks etc should be in game to promote economy even more, supply and demand drive economy. Right now the supply is very very high, and the demand is pretty low (lacking people playing or a reason to even build a tent).

If I remove the high supply, that means demand will go up, due to people not getting supplied with it. Which will make people do/paid more for these items. Its simple economics 101.

Added after 5 minutes:


I agree with you that its mainly a development mistake. I hope they will fix it, it would be a very very easy fix (just respawn trees fast and don't let people to build roads on junkpiles). But till then if someone do this its his fault as well.

This comment right is why I know you dont know what you are talking about this is NOT helping the econ its not helping the game.

What you should say is something like "fix regrowth and planting" not "respawn trees fast".
You should also say "allow junk piles to respawn or be planted" not "stop people from paving roads on junk piles".

Both your statements do NOTHING for econ but a limited time fix, and with the junk piles it hurts the economy.

The junk piles in game right now are unlimited why would we need to protect that resource? I will never run my junk pile out. Never its never ending even if I farm it everyday for resources it wont run out. Its that big. Is this going to help the econ where everyone has these junk piles?
Heck why not just make it EVERYWHERE is a junk pile and you dont even need special spots for it.

Please post more to try to break the game.

Only development mistake Ive seen here, is the fact that trees cant be planted or respawned. (with reguards to trees and junk piles)
This is being fixed the next patch (or so they say).

Junk piles are many for a reason, it was expected to have more people playing, and thus more people using up junk piles and more of a need for junk. It was like this at the start which was it was changed from 4 to 8.

I would like to see (but not really needed) junk piles not respawn every 48h like they do now. I would like to see them go away, and then randomly respawn in the world.

[Jadzia]

MrDDT, the problem is that these are basic resources. In every game basic resources are easy to access and not limited. They are not for boosting the economy, they are for training and getting basic stuffs up. The game is not designed so that we would need to protect these resources, its not even possible since we can't be online 24/7. When they add contested resources that will be another question.

Do you know that building roads was added later, and earlier you were only able to build roads inside you tribe territory, just like every other terraforming action ? They added it to make it possible to build real roads, and not to give us a tool to destroy junkpiles. It simply wasn't thought out, and now you are exploiting it. Building roads weren't developed as a junkpile-killing tool.

And as you said, you can't destroy every junkpile, so you just do it around some tribes to annoy them ? If you can't stop yourself then destroy the ones that are out in the forest if you want to lower their amount.
But I have no intention to argue with you. You have such a deep self-righteousness that you always believe you are the only one who is right, and your way is the only way. Somewhere you wrote that players don't know what they want...good you are here to tell us. Lol.

[NorCalGooey]

First off, you dont NEED a junk pile to get resources.
Second off if you couldnt find a junk pile then likely you didnt play but 2 seconds. If there were only 1 junk pile and it was controlled by a person you might have something to talk about, but there are 100s of junk piles all over the map. In the starting area there so many I cant even count them all. Its more than anywhere else. So you are talking in theory or practice? If I could pave over every junk pile you still wouldnt have a point because there are other resources other than junk piles that people can do and use. Then join a tribe with junk piles. Or trade labor for access to a junk pile.
Yes new players with out access to ANY resources might quit. But you shouldnt have 100s of these around the map. There is enough protected junk piles that new players have very very easy access too.

You should say "They should make some safe junk piles in each starting area" instead saying not to limit resources. Everyone has access to basic resources in game now. Its not about access its about limiting the amount. Im ok with access, Im not ok with how much there is. Right now there unlimited, and many many locations are unlimited. That's not good for economy.

Ive yet to hear any new player say "I cant find a junk pile" because I would call them out on it. You should try making a new toon and see how close junk piles are to EVERY starting area.

Are you now telling me that junk piles are the only way to kill up skills?

Please learn how trading and economy works.

Next logs yes, and Im missing your point. You know that woodcutting is a skill in game right? Logs are NOT the only resource from trees.
Even if they were logs CAN be traded if the need is high enough. I myself have hauled logs pretty far down mts for a tribe. They paid me to do it.

Im not going to disagree that carts or some way to export items that are heavy like logs and bricks etc should be in game to promote economy even more, supply and demand drive economy. Right now the supply is very very high, and the demand is pretty low (lacking people playing or a reason to even build a tent).

If I remove the high supply, that means demand will go up, due to people not getting supplied with it. Which will make people do/paid more for these items. Its simple economics 101.

Added after 5 minutes:



This comment right is why I know you dont know what you are talking about this is NOT helping the econ its not helping the game.

What you should say is something like "fix regrowth and planting" not "respawn trees fast".
You should also say "allow junk piles to respawn or be planted" not "stop people from paving roads on junk piles".

Both your statements do NOTHING for econ but a limited time fix, and with the junk piles it hurts the economy.

The junk piles in game right now are unlimited why would we need to protect that resource? I will never run my junk pile out. Never its never ending even if I farm it everyday for resources it wont run out. Its that big. Is this going to help the econ where everyone has these junk piles?
Heck why not just make it EVERYWHERE is a junk pile and you dont even need special spots for it.

Please post more to try to break the game.

Only development mistake Ive seen here, is the fact that trees cant be planted or respawned. (with reguards to trees and junk piles)
This is being fixed the next patch (or so they say).

Junk piles are many for a reason, it was expected to have more people playing, and thus more people using up junk piles and more of a need for junk. It was like this at the start which was it was changed from 4 to 8.

I would like to see (but not really needed) junk piles not respawn every 48h like they do now. I would like to see them go away, and then randomly respawn in the world.

DDT you just scored a 4 pointer if there ever was such a shot. There is so much junk around us 50 active players couldn't farm it all in a month if they all treated gathering junk like a full time job.

I think the reason their are so many resources in game is because they expected more players to be playing. It's hard to balance supply/demand when your population can die and come back to life whenever they want (quit and rejoin the game)

If 10,000 players all joined tomorrow, we wouldn't be having this conversation. All except the part about hauling trees...we need a way to do this more efficiently.

[MrDDT]

MrDDT, the problem is that these are basic resources. In every game basic resources are easy to access and not limited. They are not for boosting the economy, they are for training and getting basic stuffs up. The game is not designed so that we would need to protect these resources, its not even possible since we can't be online 24/7. When they add contested resources that will be another question.

Do you know that building roads was added later, and earlier you were only able to build roads inside you tribe territory, just like every other terraforming action ? They added it to make it possible to build real roads, and not to give us a tool to destroy junkpiles. It simply wasn't thought out, and now you are exploiting it. Building roads weren't developed as a junkpile-killing tool.

And as you said, you can't destroy every junkpile, so you just do it around some tribes to annoy them ? If you can't stop yourself then destroy the ones that are out in the forest if you want to lower their amount.
But I have no intention to argue with you. You have such a deep self-righteousness that you always believe you are the only one who is right, and your way is the only way. Somewhere you wrote that players don't know what they want...good you are here to tell us. Lol.

Im not exploiting anything, and you saying that just shows had bad you are. First off I didnt build a road ANYWHERE I didnt place a totem. Even if I could, its still not exploiting. Just because you think its a neg effect on players doesnt mean its exploiting. Building roads is there for a reason.
It would be like me saying "I like your spot you placed your town, you are exploiting it" makes no sense.

Im not always right, Ive been wrong before. I admit when Im wrong. You dont, and you are wrong often.

Players often tend to not know what they want. They think they know whats best for them but often its not. It would be like giving a child candy right before bed, or water right before bed. If they knew and understand the side effects (teeth falling out, and peeing the bed etc) then they wouldnt want that now would they?

People want things easy for them all the time, they dont understand it has side effects. If everyone had what they want, then there would be no trade, no econ.

Roads are NOT the only way to destroy junk piles. There are a few ways. I dont see your point here.
Roads are a great idea. The problem is how much junk piles are in the world, not the roads. If you want a junk pile protect it. Oh wait you cant because you dont want to place a totem over it, you want it everything your way.
Also you wont protect it with force because you are a PVEer gotcha. So who cares about trade and economy. Its all about what Jadzia wants. Sadly its not whats good for the game, nor the vision of a well thought out economy.

You say you cant protect the resources 24/7 well I have to show you thats 100% wrong. My resources are 100% protected 24/7, as I stated already up a few lines on how to do that. Just admit it you are wrong, and you just want it your way.


Im not even going to go into the warfare side of this WHOLE topic. Which let me tell you is great part of it too. Because I know it will fall on deaf ears as you have no idea how to PVP, nor what people that are interested in PVP want.

[Jadzia]

Players often tend to not know what they want. They think they know whats best for them but often its not. It would be like giving a child candy right before bed, or water right before bed. If they knew and understand the side effects (teeth falling out, and peeing the bed etc) then they wouldnt want that now would they?
Thats exactly how you think. Everyone is a child (apart of the ones who agree with you ) and you are their superior who know better. And you have the right to tell them how to do things. Lol. You should respect other players a bit more.




Roads are NOT the only way to destroy junk piles. There are a few ways. I dont see your point here.
Roads are a great idea. The problem is how much junk piles are in the world, not the roads. If you want a junk pile protect it. Oh wait you cant because you dont want to place a totem over it, you want it everything your way.
Also you wont protect it with force because you are a PVEer gotcha. So who cares about trade and economy. Its all about what Jadzia wants. Sadly its not whats good for the game, nor the vision of a well thought out economy.
You always think that I speak for myself. I never had any problem with junkpile-pavers, nor tree killers. None of them happened in my area. What you do is bad for other players, but you think you know better and you have the right to do so. You might make people quit the game but you don't care because you are so sure you are some god-like player who knows what is good for others.

I'm done arguing with you. Your self-righteousness makes it hopeless.

[MrDDT]

Thats exactly how you think. Everyone is a child (apart of the ones who agree with you ) and you are their superior who know better. And you have the right to tell them how to do things. Lol. You should respect other players a bit more.


You always think that I speak for myself. I never had any problem with junkpile-pavers, nor tree killers. None of them happened in my area. What you do is bad for other players, but you think you know better and you have the right to do so. You might make people quit the game but you don't care because you are so sure you are some god-like player who knows what is good for others.

I'm done arguing with you. Your self-righteousness makes it hopeless.

You have made people quit.
People quit over many things. Look at all the people you already have said quit over the FFA PVP combat rules.

When people make child like statements, I treat the statement like a childlike statement.

If someone like you says "I want safe zones everywhere because I want a good trade system" that statement doesnt work. Good trade system isnt helped by safe areas. Strife create demand. Demand drives economy. Safe areas do not promote a lot of demand.

Make a bad statement, I will correct it. If you have a reason why my views do not work, post your opinion why they wont with reasons that make sense. Posting "They wont work because they wont" isnt a good reason. Post why. Then, I can retort with why I thing your reasons may or may not be right. Thats a debate, thats how ideas spawn and are hammered out.

Posting, "Its how I want it or people will quit" isnt going to help. You always talking about how everyone is going to quit quit quit. If they dont do it your way everyone quits.
You act like you speak for everyone even when we all know its not the case. Plus dont forget this game isnt just for the people, its the Dev's idea. You know what will bring a ton of people into the game? Make the game a WOW clone, or make it like Lineage 2. Heck just make it free to play with a cash shop. More people will play I promise you that.
But being that its not ONLY about how many people are playing, there are other factors. You should consider them and factor them into the problem.

Just like you have to factor in what the devs can or cant code. You cant think of a solution to a problem which you know cant work based on the devs being limited in what they can do. It would be like asking them to make a 5min intro like WOW has into the game. Just not going to happen.

[Azhul_NS]

It is simply not reasonable to blame players for playing the game the way it is designed. If players could only gain one skill point in logging each day, then they would not be clearing entire forests. This game is about competing tribes. Anyone not in your tribe is a potential enemy. Depriving the enemy of resources is a key part of war. Any method of doing so which is not an exploit or cheat is fair play.

Of course, some players are likely to quit if their trees and scrap piles are depleted (why the hell wouldn't you put your totem on a scrap pile?), but some are likely to quit when they get killed and lose some of their stuff. Some are going to quit if they can't find anyone to trade with.

You can't make a game to please EVERYONE. Games that try to please everyone, end up pleasing no one.

[Book]

You can't make a game to please EVERYONE. Games that try to please everyone, end up pleasing no one.

True, but a lot of people are upset that safe totems can be put on junk and resources in the first place.

If John Doe grabs a knife and stabs me, I'm not going to blame the kitchen utensil company, I'm going to want the person who did the stabbing held accountable.

Ferraris are beautiful cars. Take it down a crowded sidewalk though and it becomes destructive. Would we blame ferrari? Or would we hold the driver accountable?

A gun "can" be a dangerous weapon. It can also be protection, recreation, food gathering tool... if Mr. Doe shoots someone, are we going to say he's innocent because the gun was made with the potential to do harm? Or would we hold the person who did the shooting accountable?

People in game get upset about "artificial, magical" protections. They accuse others of being carebears when those protections are suggested. That is the misdirection. The blame should be on those using the tools inappropriately. The people in control of their own actions should be the ones held accountable...

If you agree that the actions are inappropriate, then blaming NG is kind of a cop out. I do agree some things are a matter of incentive, but if people were a bit more capable of holding themselves accountable instead of needing babysitting rules to help them control themselves, there would be no problem.

imho.

[MrDDT]

True, but a lot of people are upset that safe totems can be put on junk and resources in the first place.

If John Doe grabs a knife and stabs me, I'm not going to blame the kitchen utensil company, I'm going to want the person who did the stabbing held accountable.

Ferraris are beautiful cars. Take it down a crowded sidewalk though and it becomes destructive. Would we blame ferrari? Or would we hold the driver accountable?

A gun "can" be a dangerous weapon. It can also be protection, recreation, food gathering tool... if Mr. Doe shoots someone, are we going to say he's innocent because the gun was made with the potential to do harm? Or would we hold the person who did the shooting accountable?

People in game get upset about "artificial, magical" protections. They accuse others of being carebears when those protections are suggested. That is the misdirection. The blame should be on those using the tools inappropriately. The people in control of their own actions should be the ones held accountable...

If you agree that the actions are inappropriate, then blaming NG is kind of a cop out. I do agree some things are a matter of incentive, but if people were a bit more capable of holding themselves accountable instead of needing babysitting rules to help them control themselves, there would be no problem.

imho.

What you just said isnt applying here.

What we have here, is Person A is a psycho killer. Person B makes knifes, Person C is the victim of the stabbing. Then you have person C and D that could have stopped them.
If person D could have stopped B from selling it to A, or stopped A from getting the knife. But didnt. Are they not also at fault?

Thats what you are having here. You have players that could have stopped the junk piles from being paved over, or resources taken, or areas being controlled with force, trade, politics etc. Yet you are not doing any of those. You want the game makers to put in a magical ruling to prevent people from getting knives EVEN the ones that use knives to eat and skin with. (In this case roads = knives).

Dont take tools out of the game, leave the tools add more tools to help players stop other players from griefing or protect themselves.
If you could hire guards to protect your junk piles from being roaded, or maybe fences, or other things like that, Im all for that. But no you want some magical fake system which prevents people to do stuff only because you dont think you like it. Well what if I want to pave over a junk pile because I want a trade road to my friend on the other side of my junk pile?

Geez. Think outside the box. Stop trying to force your limitations on people. Junk piles are ONLY able to be paved over because you wont protect them (you = people like you). Currently in game right now there are a few ways to stop your junk piles from being removed, used, paved over, cleared etc. Try using the tools, instead of crying because someone is playing the game within the rules and you dont like that.

You can ask for more tools like maybe able to build gates, or guard towers, or a warning system when people are in the area etc.

[Azhul_NS]

NG made the knives, and they could have made knives which could not be used to attack people, but they chose not to, and they didn't make any laws against stabbing people, either, and they reward people for stabbing.

[Book]

DDT, you're making my point man :D People behave in such a way that results in artificial barriers being put in place, and then they're upset about the artificial barriers... kinda self-defeating ain't it? :p

Take the rezzing with all your stuff example.

This wasn't a problem when people rezzed where they died. But then some douches decided to camp people's bodies and make the experience a pain in the arse. They could say "but the game's letting me do it!!! RahRahRah!"

Well, now the game doesn't let them do it... happy with the outcome? Doubt anyone really is. Thank the douches.

Edit: Azhul, I do agree that with things like clear-cutting, there's a problem of incentives given to reward the behaviour. Not good. I don't, though, think that should absolve personal accountability. Do you?

[MrDDT]

DDT, you're making my point man :D People behave in such a way that results in artificial barriers being put in place, and then they're upset about the artificial barriers... kinda self-defeating ain't it? :p

Take the rezzing with all your stuff example.

This wasn't a problem when people rezzed where they died. But then some douches decided to camp people's bodies and make the experience a pain in the arse. They could say "but the game's letting me do it!!! RahRahRah!"

Well, now the game doesn't let them do it... happy with the outcome? Doubt anyone really is. Thank the douches.

Edit: Azhul, I do agree that with things like clear-cutting, there's a problem of incentives given to reward the behaviour. Not good. I don't, though, think that should absolve personal accountability. Do you?


Thats just my point, its not the "douches" fault. The system where they res with all the items back at base is the fault now.
Clearly it was a problem to res with all your stuff right back where you were. I dont see a problem with what the "douches" were doing. How am I going to protect my lands if you can respawn right on top of where I killed you? You expect me to just walk away from you after you died?

You cant hold everyone accountable for everything. What you find right might not be right to others. Its like say if your neighbor wants a road to his friend. You might say "NO DONT PAVE THAT". Doesnt make it wrong. Just means you differ in your opinions of it.

Clear cutting is ONLY a problem because of regrowth and lacking a way to plant trees. Not because people want to spend time cutting trees. You really upset because people are wanting to cut trees? Is it hurting the tree's feelings? What if trees insta grew back would it be a problem then? NO it wouldnt.

Tree issue is being fixed the right way, trees are going to be allowed to be replanted, and they will respawn. Great, should have been like that in the first place. Nothing to do with people "clear-cutting" trees.

Man up and stop people from cutting your trees, or you can place a safe protective totem over them. You have options. Stop crying out for the game maker to put magical safeties on everything.

[Azhul_NS]

Edit: Azhul, I do agree that with things like clear-cutting, there's a problem of incentives given to reward the behaviour. Not good. I don't, though, think that should absolve personal accountability. Do you?

Yes. People play to progress. If behaviour is rewarded by the game, then the responsibility is NG's. It's not griefing if the game rewards it. You can't expect people to play nice in a survival game where other people are the main threats.

[Book]

Yeah... you guys are totally right. Taking personal responsibility and giving a moment's thought as to how your actions might affect another really should be too much too ask. Glad you set me straight on that!

Incidentally DDT, the junk pile I use is very small, only takes about half my safe zone, and yes, it's protected. Haven't shed a tear yet, but having the capacity to empathize with those affected even if you aren't isn't entirely beyond most people.

I'm pretty sure you know we're not talking about a thin road from point A to point B... but whatever it takes for you to deny understanding my point is cool.

[MrDDT]

I'm pretty sure you know we're not talking about a thin road from point A to point B... but whatever it takes for you to deny understanding my point is cool.

Thats not the point and you know it. You will remove that option if the system you try to place is put in. You understand that right?

[Trenchfoot]

How do you ever have an antagonist when the game 'forces' everyone to behave?

Or is it that you like your opposition without any teeth?

[Jadzia]

I just read a comment on mmorpg.com. Someone said he left the game because some asshole clearcut every tree in his area, then the same person started to pave the junkpiles. Sounds like you, MrDDT...you can congratulate yourself. One customer is down, some hundreds more to go. Your faith in your own superiority will help you to finish your mission.

And no, its not the fault of the person who made the knife. Its more like a brick-making company...people buy their bricks to build houses. But one day a psychopath buys some bricks and start to kill people by hitting them on the head with it...its obviously not the fault of the brick-maker. And if they implement a rule that their brick can only be used on building sites and not everywhere thats a very good and logical decision.

Trench, I don't believe that meaningful PvP for you is paving junkpiles at night when no one is around or inside your own safe zone. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't do that. Especially without any reason.

[MrDDT]

I just read a comment on mmorpg.com. Someone said he left the game because some asshole clearcut every tree in his area, then the same person started to pave the junkpiles. Sounds like you, MrDDT...you can congratulate yourself. One customer is down, some hundreds more to go. Your faith in your own superiority will help you to finish your mission.

How many people have quit because they were killed in PVP? Should we remove PVP too?
How many people have quit because there is safe areas? Should we remove safe areas?

So someone got upset.
That person didnt even play the game it was because of people like you that are "OMG we cant have people cutting all the trees" that lead him to not buy the game. If he would have logged in and saw that there was tons of junk piles there wouldnt be a problem.

Trees we all know is a problem, they are working on respawning them all AND making them regrow. Dont blame me for skilling up my skills. ALL those resources are still in game. I didnt delete the trees, I chopped them.

Stop crying on the forums and causing people to quit. Let them log in first before they quit because of a safe zones, broken combat, boring crafting, and a game with a major lacking econ first. Oh wait those are the things Im trying to get working correctly. Right? See Im putting ideas on the forums to fix the real issues, not whine about someone cutting a tree to close to my totem.

I believe things like this also need to be fixed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBiKD-ibeuE
Clearly those buildings shouldnt be that easy for someone to take down. It should be hard to take down, it shouldnt take 5 seconds to kill someones work they put in hours and hours of work into.

These issues need to be addressed and fixed before players start getting into the game en mass.

Paving over junk piles and cutting trees is NOT the problem, its other issues that are causing people to be upset. If trees were able to be planted, and regrow. No one would care as much if someone cut a few trees down.
Also if trees took longer to cut, like instead of 5s it was like 2 mins. Then it wouldnt be as big of a problem either.
But you dont fix the system with magical safe zones.


[Edit]
I just found this little gem of info from the features page.



Resources can be controlled and destroyed to reduce supply.

Im not 100% sure what that means, but Im guessing it has to do more with players doing it and less with the devs doing it.

[Book]

How do you ever have an antagonist when the game 'forces' everyone behave?

Or is it that you like your opposition without any teeth?

I'm not after anybody's teeth :)

Not even trying to advocate for more safety, to the contrary. I'm trying to point out that the extreme measures put in place for safety are the result of extreme behavior that wound up making it a good idea to the devs. There's a reason artificial measures are put in place. Don't want artificial measures? Me neither, just don't behave in such a way that Devs have to implement them.

I'm suggesting people take ownership of the solution by moderating themselves in light of those around them... just a bit. The answer I get is "Well, the game lets me do it so it's okay!" I think everybody is capable of a bit more than that.

All for the idea of being an archer in a big battle, or cavalry. Looked forward to it when I bought the game. No desire to remove anyone's pvp fun... No desire to dull it down, or make it any less enjoyable.

I'd even donate a satchel full of nails to buy you some killer dentures if it comes to that :p

[Trenchfoot]

@jadz

Shhh. You'll ruin my reputation.

But that does bring up a good point. Not everyone who argues for an open world argues for freedom so that they can give their neighbor grief.

When evil is forced to 'behave' you don't have evil. And consequently where does that leave good?

It becomes an unbalanced equation. So that:

An evil action proves you're evil. But there are no good actions to prove you're good. Good is then relinquished to do 'nothing' in order to perform goodness. Which is dull at best.

This kind of system believe it or not favors evil, which isn't really that evil because they're forced to behave.

There is nothing more satisfying in pvp than to battle a worthy opponent. Part of being worthy is the skill they bring to combat. But a large part of that worthiness comes from their opposition outside of combat. By allowing justice to be served and wrongs to be righted by the players, it allows good to 'prove' their goodness. So that both good an evil have an equal course. When only evil has a course laid out in the game mechanics, everyone becomes evil by proxy (but not too evil).

When you force evil to behave, there are no worthy opponents. Your only opponent so to speak, becomes the game mechanics itself. ie. finding loopholes in the system to allow you to perform truly evil actions without being branded evil by the game.

Now whoever can go ahead and make your 'policing' argument...

EDIT: Granted a finished game would clear up 50% of this argument. Safe zones and limits for the time being are probably needed until everything is established.

[mrcalhou]

There should be PROS and CONS to EVERYTHING. A sandbox game isn't a game that has no restrictions. A sandbox game is a game where you are allowed to choose how you want to play based on a decision you have to make. They need to make the game BALANCED; not free from consequence. And this goes for "good" and "evil" equally. Personally I prefer shades of gray.

Safe zones are NOT a bad thing. If they are balanced properly. The problem is that most developers just don't have a clue how to do it. But, if Eve can make a working sandbox, then it can be done by others.

[Dubanka]

ddt and book are both right...two points on the trinity...

- you have the freedom to be a douche (ie. game mechanics permit you to do it, without any degree of exploit...it is in the design to be a douche)

- you choose to be a douche (there is a level of personal decision making...just because you can, doesn't mean you have to or should...but you do. thats a choice)

the part of the game that is completely missing...

- you can be held accountable for being a douche (currently, you can be a douche, you choose to be a douche, and there is nothing i can do about it except cry on the boards. sad state of affairs imo).

at the end of the day, without accountabilility...whats the point?

[Eduard]

I just read a comment on mmorpg.com. Someone said he left the game because some asshole clearcut every tree in his area, then the same person started to pave the junkpiles. Sounds like you, MrDDT...you can congratulate yourself. One customer is down, some hundreds more to go. Your faith in your own superiority will help you to finish your mission.



I don't believe what you just said to him... I hope you realize there is a million of reasons why would ppl quit or be unhappy... he killed all animals around, he killed me while I was AFK, he ruined my view by building tent in front of my homestead, he teraformed that junkpile, he made an ugly character and I don't like it, he killed me again while I was in toilet aaaaaaa.... etc

WTF?

What if he cut all the trees in game? He will have all the trees and tree price will rise so he will be very rich char in game or he will have a lot of enemies who want to steal trees from him ... ITS A GAME - there is no honor system and this is not Utopia ffs.
Or switch to single player games where nobody will cut your trees ...

You have walls - use them - guard your tribe wood and problem solved.

[Josluc]

MrDDT why do you have a guest account ,is a guest account subscription free if so why should i pay while you can do as you please building roads on junkpiles clearing trees ?

[yantal_Oh]

well, i've rode all the messages, i did'nt understand all, because my english isn't very good. But i understood that someones think funny to cut all the trees, as much as they can, and destroy junkpiles, because it's funny too, it's ennoy the others, and they think it has an economic interest ! (MRDDT) I dont think it's true when mrddt says he do this to boost the economy. If you destroy all the first necessity ressources, there's not one chance to make economy. It will be a desert. I think that mrddt wants the game for himself only. When the trees will grow, mrddt will not be a problem at all, because i cant believe he will cut all day long and all night long all the trees of the game. It would be very stupid. As it's very stupid to think for the other people. Each one play the game as he wants to. For me, i'm a solo player, for the moment. It's nice for me crafting, fishing, and harder to find branches for making my fence. I have one tree on my area, but it has been cut off and dont grow. But i have a lot of things to do, scavenging on the junk piles for example. And i saw someones who destroyed the junkpiles, i thought it was an error from the people to do this. I'm very sad for you, mrddt, to see it's intentional. Don't you have more things to do ? Well it doesn't matter anyway. In each mmo i can see pk who ennoy other players, in this game it's about the primary ressources. We will see.

[Azhul_NS]

@ Yantal - No. It's not griefing. The game rewards you with skill ups and xp for cutting down trees. Same with road building.

Also - anyone in this world who is not your friend, is your enemy. Denying resources to the enemy is a crucial part of warfare.

[MrDDT]

I think its very funny how people are crying about my tree cutting issues. When now high logging skill is required to make master items.
I have so many trade deals going on right now, I cant even think of how many I would have if I leveled up tool crafting or weapon crafting.

Also, Ive seen many people now understand why you need logging high, and also have started cutting many trees, even some said they are going to clear cut areas now too. The same people that were upset with me doing it, are not understanding why I had to do it.

As I have always said, dont blame me, blame the system on no regrowth, and how you have to level up the skill.

Ive said it many times, logging skill needs to be done differently.

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthread.php/6818-Containerds-MOAR?p=81708&viewfull=1#post81708


Ive posted this before.

I think they should make it so that felling a tree gives skill for logging (like it does now) but it should take like 5 to 10 tries to fell a tree. Each one gives a chance to get skill (like now), then each time you chop a felled tree into a log it should give a chance to give a skill for logging. You chop up each felled tree 5 to 20 times depending on its yield. Each chop should give like 1 to 3 logs.

This would mean that felling a tree would take about 25 to 150 seconds to fell, depending on your skill and tree size. Then it would take about 25 to 300 seconds to get 5 to 60 logs out of it.

Right now it takes 5seconds to 15second to fell a tree. Then 5 to 15 seconds to get 1 to 26 logs. With each tree giving 1 chance to get logging skill.
The new way (my idea) you can get 10 to 30 chances per tree to get logging per tree.


So please dont get upset with me because I had the forethought to understand how the system works, and make my skills useful for trade.

[Jadzia]

And of course paving the junkpiles serves the same thing, skilling up your terraforming. Lol. We all know you are a griefer and exploiter, MrDDT, so just leave it there. Some pathetic excuses won't change a thing.

[Azhul_NS]

And of course paving the junkpiles serves the same thing, skilling up your terraforming. Lol. We all know you are a griefer and exploiter, MrDDT, so just leave it there. Some pathetic excuses won't change a thing.

If someone comes along and kills you, takes your stuff, hides, and kills you again when you return, is that griefing?

[MrDDT]

And of course paving the junkpiles serves the same thing, skilling up your terraforming. Lol. We all know you are a griefer and exploiter, MrDDT, so just leave it there. Some pathetic excuses won't change a thing.

Loving the personal attacks because you cant make a true case on any other points.

Here is a little quote from the FEATURES!




Economy

The economy is entirely player run. It relies heavily on players to gather resources, craft necessary items and trade. Players can barter or buy and sell using local currency.
Tribes can set local currencies based on found currency items.
Town and individual bank accounts.
Towns can impose taxes.
Player run trade through town totems.
Resources can be controlled and destroyed to reduce supply.
Trade between individuals and towns.

I put it in bold for you.

I see no issues with what I did, I understand the game fully, and how econ works. Its econ 101. Supply and Demand. You should read up on it.

[MrDDT]

5x double post because the web-server is crap.

[goodayve]

This is about logging.

I really see no problem in people going around cutting all the trees.

Now if the same person destorys the trees and logs then that is a real problem.

Someone cut down a lot of trees in my area, which mean for the next days I have to work on moving all the wood to my camp:) The person didnt even chop them into logs which gives me the option to choose what log.(I figured they did this to let me choose the logs, maybe to not leave their name behind on the logs, maybe was someone with high skill and didnt want to give away high skill logs, or whatever reason at least its a lot of wood)

Now im building up a bunch of extra wood so thats nice.

I really dont know if MrDDT is mainly trying to get strength and logging skill. I remember once hearing you in chat asking if anyone knew a good place to cut trees down. I had just got an axe so my respons wasnt what it would have been an hour or so before that. I might have asked you to come and cut some trees down for me and I would pay you to do it.

I could see that happening with the skills how they are now. Someone might ask a high skilled logger to come chop the trees into logs.

[Jadzia]

Double post, forum is having a bad day today.

[Jadzia]

If someone comes along and kills you, takes your stuff, hides, and kills you again when you return, is that griefing?

No. But if he does things to annoy people and he does that repeatedly, driving players away from the game by that that is griefing. If he kills someone repeatedly that is griefing as well ( more than 4 times, definition by the GMs).

If someone kills him, and he exploits that his character is bugged and respawn at the same spot and kills the victor while he is recovering, that is exploiting.

Griefers and exploiters always use game mechanics, so thats not an argument 'its not griefing since the game allows me to do it!'.

And there is nothing personal in it. I have never met DDT in the game, he has no idea where my totem is, he has never terraformed and clearcut around my area. I just see that his actions are bad for the game, he drives away new players and that hurts all of us.

[goodayve]

Economy

The economy is entirely player run. It relies heavily on players to gather resources, craft necessary items and trade. Players can barter or buy and sell using local currency.
Tribes can set local currencies based on found currency items.
Town and individual bank accounts.
Towns can impose taxes.
Player run trade through town totems.
Resources can be controlled and destroyed to reduce supply.
Trade between individuals and towns.


Ok, i can see how destroying the trees would be viable.

What i ment by it would be a problem is, that it would make people very unhappy or mad.

[Josluc]

MrDDT why do you have a guest account ,is a guest account subscription free if so why should i pay while you can do as you please building roads on junkpiles clearing trees ?

[MrDDT]

Economy

The economy is entirely player run. It relies heavily on players to gather resources, craft necessary items and trade. Players can barter or buy and sell using local currency.
Tribes can set local currencies based on found currency items.
Town and individual bank accounts.
Towns can impose taxes.
Player run trade through town totems.
Resources can be controlled and destroyed to reduce supply.
Trade between individuals and towns.


Ok, i can see how destroying the trees would be viable.

What i ment by it would be a problem is, that it would make people very unhappy or mad.

People are going to get mad when they die, they are going to get mad when they break a tool, they are going to get mad when someone builds near a resource they want. Nothing I did with the trees or removing resources from the game was breaking any rules.

Upsetting people is normal when you have PVP. Even WOW has this problem.



MrDDT why do you have a guest account ,is a guest account subscription free if so why should i pay while you can do as you please building roads on junkpiles clearing trees ?

Talk to the forum mods why my account says that. Im not sure why.


Jadzia,
Calling someone a "greifer" and "exploiter" is a personal attack.
Attacking someone over and over can be greifing if there were nothing the player can do about it, however, there are safe areas and many things players can do to not be attacked.


Economy

The economy is entirely player run. It relies heavily on players to gather resources, craft necessary items and trade. Players can barter or buy and sell using local currency.
Tribes can set local currencies based on found currency items.
Town and individual bank accounts.
Towns can impose taxes.
Player run trade through town totems.
Resources can be controlled and destroyed to reduce supply.
Trade between individuals and towns.


Ok, i can see how destroying the trees would be viable.

What i ment by it would be a problem is, that it would make people very unhappy or mad.

People are going to get mad when they die, they are going to get mad when they break a tool, they are going to get mad when someone builds near a resource they want. Nothing I did with the trees or removing resources from the game was breaking any rules.

Upsetting people is normal when you have PVP. Even WOW has this problem.



MrDDT why do you have a guest account ,is a guest account subscription free if so why should i pay while you can do as you please building roads on junkpiles clearing trees ?

Talk to the forum mods why my account says that. Im not sure why.


Jadzia,
Calling someone a "greifer" and "exploiter" is a personal attack.
Attacking someone over and over can be greifing if there were nothing the player can do about it, however, there are safe areas and many things players can do to not be attacked.

[Trenchfoot]

It sounds like the new definition of winner is greifer. Don't win too much, because people will leave the game if they loose.

[Jadzia]

Attacking someone over and over can be greifing if there were nothing the player can do about it
Wrong. Perhaps that is your definition about griefing, but not the developers'. Attacking someone over and over IS griefing is this game, even if the victim can try to run away and hide in a safe zone or do whatever.

Someone who exploits bugs is an exploiter. How is this a personal attack ?

[xyberviri]

Unfortunatly i remember some one saying that Griefing is also attacking some one over and over that comes into your area, ie you kill them they go away to where ever and you continue on what you were up to, they come back and you kill them again, then continue on your way still not following or what ever, this continues on for another 14 15 times and boom your a griefer.

PvP and Griefing are always going to get mixed together and to be honest the only solution to griefing is to just form up a posse hunt down the griefer and then grief them harder that they did before since thats the only language they understand....

You have to make it so they dont get the pleasure of doing it to you by doing it to them, in this game the safe zones kinda limit what you can do but really thats the only solution, you dont trade with them you hunt them down and kill them and doing it as a community....


I dont understand this carebear hold my hand stuff, people need to grow up,

Any mechanic can be used as greifing, ANY MECHANIC, you can grief some one with crafting if you really wanted to.

The real definition of griefing is being jack ass and tring to ruin the game experience for another player its simple as that. It doesn't have to be pvp, you dont have to have your character Die for it to happen to you, stop assuming that (pvp=griefing)

[Book]

It sounds like the new definition of winner is greifer. Don't win too much, because people will leave the game if they loose.

I know it can seem that way, but I've honestly seen players harrass one of my neighbors to a point that was just silly :(

They were actually hiding (must have macroed because at that time, no way someone could have gotten that advanced yet) near his safe zone and jumping him naked with PO axes every time he tried to leave. They'd taunt him in general.

Mind you, he didn't even know them at all, none of us did. He did get upset by it, it did cause him grief, and that's the only reason they continued to harrass him in particular. It's how they got their jollies.

Not every instance of pvp falls under that category of course. I have no doubt from the things you've said you are more into honorable pvp... but there really are some silly folks out there. Much fewer recently but I think that's only because a lot of their prey jumped ship :( These guys weren't winners even if they won the fight, know what I mean?


PvP and Griefing are always going to get mixed together and to be honest the only solution to griefing is to just form up a posse hunt down the griefer and then grief them harder that they did before since thats the only language they understand....
stop assuming that (pvp=griefing)

Actually, that's what my neighborhood did. We got enough online at once to kill them(needed a posse because they were macroed with PO axes) which is when they came back after we logged off and decimated the entire forest nearby, stumps and all.

Griefing does indeed take many forms :(

[Jadzia]

Actually, that's what my neighborhood did. We got enough online at once to kill them(needed a posse because they were macroed with PO axes) which is when they came back after we logged off and decimated the entire forest nearby, stumps and all.

Griefing does indeed take many forms
This. And since dieing means NOTHING in the game, griefers can't be punished by the community, only by devs/GMs.

[Azhul_NS]

Why the hell are you people in Xsyon anyway?

It is a ffa PvP game about post-apocalyptic survival. Expecting people to 'play nice' is irrational.

The system rewards and encourages excessive harvesting and terraforming. It is not griefing to do exactly what the game is designed to encourage.

If you want to play PvE, fine. Stay in your tribal land.

[MrDDT]

Wrong. Perhaps that is your definition about griefing, but not the developers'. Attacking someone over and over IS griefing is this game, even if the victim can try to run away and hide in a safe zone or do whatever.

Someone who exploits bugs is an exploiter. How is this a personal attack ?


So when I do a duel with a player 10 times in a row that's griefing? I think you need to go figure out what is wrong with YOUR definition of griefing, but I'm sure attacking others over and over is not. Its only when they cant do anything about getting away.

If someone attacks my town over and over, and I keep killing them. I'm 100% sure that's not griefing.

[Jadzia]

So when I do a duel with a player 10 times in a row that's griefing? I think you need to go figure out what is wrong with YOUR definition of griefing, but I'm sure attacking others over and over is not. Its only when they cant do anything about getting away.

If someone attacks my town over and over, and I keep killing them. I'm 100% sure that's not griefing.

It is not my definition. It is the one guides/devs gave to us. Argue with them if you like.

[MrDDT]

It is not my definition. It is the one guides/devs gave to us. Argue with them if you like.

I must have missed these guidelines. I didnt see it in the manual or under the TOS.

[goodayve]

People are going to get mad when they die, they are going to get mad when they break a tool, they are going to get mad when someone builds near a resource they want. Nothing I did with the trees or removing resources from the game was breaking any rules.

Upsetting people is normal when you have PVP. Even WOW has this problem.


My point though is right now there is no reason to cut down and destory trees.(I know you said before you wernt destroying them, I am not sure if you started to destroy them)

Maybe to start tribe wars early?
I could see it as a way for trade wars if someone was selling something wood and they had a competitor in a certain area, they might want to go cut all those trees.
Maybe so others cant get master logging as easy, good for high skilled loggers if they are lookign for business or just dont want others to have good stuff.

The point to do it should not be just to upset people hehe. People might get upset but if thats the reason for doing something then thats probably what most people dont like.

Also this will not matter as much when people can regrow trees.

When tribe wars start I can see it haveing a big impact. Regrowing trees should take awhile. Long enough so a tribe could destroy all the treeas around another tribe that it wanted to atatck. To make them have a hard time to get wood for defenses or weapons or whatever.

[MrDDT]

My point though is right now there is no reason to cut down and destory trees.(I know you said before you wernt destroying them, I am not sure if you started to destroy them)

Maybe to start tribe wars early?
I could see it as a way for trade wars if someone was selling something wood and they had a competitor in a certain area, they might want to go cut all those trees.
Maybe so others cant get master logging as easy, good for high skilled loggers if they are lookign for business or just dont want others to have good stuff.

The point to do it should not be just to upset people hehe. People might get upset but if thats the reason for doing something then thats probably what most people dont like.

Also this will not matter as much when people can regrow trees.

When tribe wars start I can see it haveing a big impact. Regrowing trees should take awhile. Long enough so a tribe could destroy all the treeas around another tribe that it wanted to atatck. To make them have a hard time to get wood for defenses or weapons or whatever.


People can make up any reason they want to cut down a tree. That's not really the point. I see no problems with people cutting down trees, I see a problem with the system allowing them to clear cut a full zone a day.

You say this also wont be a "problem" once people can regrow trees. Well according to yourself, you believe they should take "awhile" Im going to assume here that means much much longer than the time it takes to cut them.
So if I were inclined I could just go cut all your trees. Now granted you could grow a few trees in your tribe area. But Im pretty sure a few trees that take "awhile" to grow will not support what you are looking to do with your woodcutting needs, and with the new decay system (great job devs), its going to require even more wood.

The problem comes with how fast these trees can be cut, and how much effort it takes to remove them vs how much effort/time it takes to get more.

Ive posted my tree opinion many times on these forums on how I believe they should change the system. I think its a good system, and Ive set to see anyone see a flaw in it.

[MrDDT]

My point though is right now there is no reason to cut down and destory trees.(I know you said before you wernt destroying them, I am not sure if you started to destroy them)

Maybe to start tribe wars early?
I could see it as a way for trade wars if someone was selling something wood and they had a competitor in a certain area, they might want to go cut all those trees.
Maybe so others cant get master logging as easy, good for high skilled loggers if they are lookign for business or just dont want others to have good stuff.

The point to do it should not be just to upset people hehe. People might get upset but if thats the reason for doing something then thats probably what most people dont like.

Also this will not matter as much when people can regrow trees.

When tribe wars start I can see it haveing a big impact. Regrowing trees should take awhile. Long enough so a tribe could destroy all the treeas around another tribe that it wanted to atatck. To make them have a hard time to get wood for defenses or weapons or whatever.


People can make up any reason they want to cut down a tree. That's not really the point. I see no problems with people cutting down trees, I see a problem with the system allowing them to clear cut a full zone a day.

You say this also wont be a "problem" once people can regrow trees. Well according to yourself, you believe they should take "awhile" Im going to assume here that means much much longer than the time it takes to cut them.
So if I were inclined I could just go cut all your trees. Now granted you could grow a few trees in your tribe area. But Im pretty sure a few trees that take "awhile" to grow will not support what you are looking to do with your woodcutting needs, and with the new decay system (great job devs), its going to require even more wood.

The problem comes with how fast these trees can be cut, and how much effort it takes to remove them vs how much effort/time it takes to get more.

Ive posted my tree opinion many times on these forums on how I believe they should change the system. I think its a good system, and Ive set to see anyone see a flaw in it.

[goodayve]

WTF you see a problem with it but you do it just to try to show there is a problem then?

Is that what it is all about just to cut trees to try to show there is a problem?

[Book]

The point to do it should not be just to upset people hehe. People might get upset but if thats the reason for doing something then thats probably what most people dont like.

Yup, I think "griefing" is a bit more nuanced than a pure numbers game. A lot of it is about intention. As I mentioned earlier, I've definitely seen players whose only intention was to give another player grief. Literally.

There was no game related reason at all, it was just trying to get at the human behind the toon. I don't think the game was designed to specifically give the real paying customer grief. If it was, then Azhul is right and I certainly wouldn't belong here at all. It's not my style.

I don't believe that to be the case though :) If a dev wants to correct me on that, even privately, I'd most likely appreciate it.

[MrDDT]

WTF you see a problem with it but you do it just to try to show there is a problem then?

Is that what it is all about just to cut trees to try to show there is a problem?


You dont fault the player for doing what he has to do to train up skills and remove resources from the economy. That's what the game is about.

You fault the system for allowing it. I'm not talking about a guide stepping in and telling a player to stop, I'm talking about a system which allows you to clear a zone in 1 day of playing, or where you can destroy a chief tent in 5 seconds when it takes players hours to make them.

Fix the system.
Trees should take much more time to chop down, then this "griefing" wouldnt even been seen as griefing because they could only cut about 50 trees a day, and that's not a lot, compared to now.
Like the chief tent, it takes like 5 hours of work, it should take like 1 or 1.5 hours to take out. Not something done in 5 seconds with a click of the button.

Resources are meant to be contested over, controlled and used as tools for politics and economy. There is nothing wrong with removing an enemies resource base. Its common tactics. The problem is how easy it can be done.

[MrDDT]

WTF you see a problem with it but you do it just to try to show there is a problem then?

Is that what it is all about just to cut trees to try to show there is a problem?


You dont fault the player for doing what he has to do to train up skills and remove resources from the economy. That's what the game is about.

You fault the system for allowing it. I'm not talking about a guide stepping in and telling a player to stop, I'm talking about a system which allows you to clear a zone in 1 day of playing, or where you can destroy a chief tent in 5 seconds when it takes players hours to make them.

Fix the system.
Trees should take much more time to chop down, then this "griefing" wouldnt even been seen as griefing because they could only cut about 50 trees a day, and that's not a lot, compared to now.
Like the chief tent, it takes like 5 hours of work, it should take like 1 or 1.5 hours to take out. Not something done in 5 seconds with a click of the button.

Resources are meant to be contested over, controlled and used as tools for politics and economy. There is nothing wrong with removing an enemies resource base. Its common tactics. The problem is how easy it can be done.

[Book]

Taking little time to collect a few trees does help players who don't have a great deal of time in the day and thus can get more done with the downtime they do have. I presume there are probably more of those customers than the ones who have a great deal of time in the long run? Not sure, just my guess.

Diminishing return on number of trees taken down in a set period of time would work just as well as taking a long time to collect trees I think.

The more trees you take out in a set amount of time, the less skill XP you get from each. You eventually reach a limit where you no longer get any xp until the timer resets.

[MrDDT]

Taking little time to collect a few trees does help players who don't have a great deal of time in the day and thus can get more done with the downtime they do have. I presume there are probably more of those customers than the ones who have a great deal of time in the long run? Not sure, just my guess.

Diminishing return on number of trees taken down in a set period of time would work just as well as taking a long time to collect trees I think.

The more trees you take out in a set amount of time, the less skill XP you get from each. You eventually reach a limit where you no longer get any xp until the timer resets.

Then if they do that, they should do it on a lot of things, like killing animals, or gathering from junk piles etc.

If you read my system on it, it allows more skilling off 1 tree but also much greater time put into each tree. It would in my mine fix the problem (once regrowth is in, that's the biggest killer right now).

[Book]

Then if they do that, they should do it on a lot of things, like killing animals, or gathering from junk piles etc.

If you read my system on it, it allows more skilling off 1 tree but also much greater time put into each tree. It would in my mine fix the problem (once regrowth is in, that's the biggest killer right now).

Gathering from junkpiles doesn't give xp.
Killing animals doesn't give direct xp, except for combat (hunting?), which yes, at that point you could apply it to that as well so people don't run around wiping out entire zones to the point things can't breed...
Kind of a way to balance things out.

It's just a thought, not married to it, just throwing it out there for consideration if anyone wants to consider it. What you're suggesting would serve the same purpose, except people who need the wood for reasons other than just skilling (could happen) would be hampered from an "amount of time to play" perspective.

[Mactavendish]

what it also involves is tedious over instant gratification.

Compare limestone walls to wooden walls basically 6 logs and nails to 80 bricks and 20 mortar. The wooden wall takes very little time to make or collect the resources if they are close. Bricks and mortar are very easy to collect but take much more time.

Folks naturally went with what is the easiest and fastest.

Make cutting a tree as time consuming to make as say 80 bricks and 20 mortar and They will opt for the limestone since it is much more plentiful and easy to get.

By making adjustments to durability and quality, woodworkers now have to basically log all day to get high enough skills to make high quality handles for tools and weapons. It may seem like a step in the right direction, but it increases the clear cutting issue even more.

it has been very few players leveling logging by clear cutting.. it will now be most all those doing woodworking so they can make high/very high quality handles.

Kinda a 2 steps forward 1 step back sort of thing. Re-spawning the trees is welcome relief, but we REALLY need to be able to grow them .. and not take a year to have a tree be useful.

[MrDDT]

what it also involves is tedious over instant gratification.

Compare limestone walls to wooden walls basically 6 logs and nails to 80 bricks and 20 mortar. The wooden wall takes very little time to make or collect the resources if they are close. Bricks and mortar are very easy to collect but take much more time.

Folks naturally went with what is the easiest and fastest.

Make cutting a tree as time consuming to make as say 80 bricks and 20 mortar and They will opt for the limestone since it is much more plentiful and easy to get.

By making adjustments to durability and quality, woodworkers now have to basically log all day to get high enough skills to make high quality handles for tools and weapons. It may seem like a step in the right direction, but it increases the clear cutting issue even more.

it has been very few players leveling logging by clear cutting.. it will now be most all those doing woodworking so they can make high/very high quality handles.

Kinda a 2 steps forward 1 step back sort of thing. Re-spawning the trees is welcome relief, but we REALLY need to be able to grow them .. and not take a year to have a tree be useful.



I agree with this 100%.
Most of the problem isnt how fast people can cut trees, its that they don't grow back or re-spawn. But also the fast cutting of trees is still going to be a problem, its way too fast even after they grow back it will be too fast.

I tried to tell people this before the decay patch, and people were just thinking I was some type of griefer. But now some of the same people calling me a griefer before, are now saying how they will have to clear cut trees also.

Anyways, Book, your system supports my high skills, why would I disagree with that system when it would benefit me greatly to slow people way down on leveling a skill Im one of the very few that have very high right now?
My system not only makes skilling slightly faster, but it will also help the trees stay around over all.

Anyways, I guess we will see once the re-spawn takes place and growth/planting are in.


what it also involves is tedious over instant gratification.

Compare limestone walls to wooden walls basically 6 logs and nails to 80 bricks and 20 mortar. The wooden wall takes very little time to make or collect the resources if they are close. Bricks and mortar are very easy to collect but take much more time.

Folks naturally went with what is the easiest and fastest.

Make cutting a tree as time consuming to make as say 80 bricks and 20 mortar and They will opt for the limestone since it is much more plentiful and easy to get.

By making adjustments to durability and quality, woodworkers now have to basically log all day to get high enough skills to make high quality handles for tools and weapons. It may seem like a step in the right direction, but it increases the clear cutting issue even more.

it has been very few players leveling logging by clear cutting.. it will now be most all those doing woodworking so they can make high/very high quality handles.

Kinda a 2 steps forward 1 step back sort of thing. Re-spawning the trees is welcome relief, but we REALLY need to be able to grow them .. and not take a year to have a tree be useful.



I agree with this 100%.
Most of the problem isnt how fast people can cut trees, its that they don't grow back or re-spawn. But also the fast cutting of trees is still going to be a problem, its way too fast even after they grow back it will be too fast.

I tried to tell people this before the decay patch, and people were just thinking I was some type of griefer. But now some of the same people calling me a griefer before, are now saying how they will have to clear cut trees also.

Anyways, Book, your system supports my high skills, why would I disagree with that system when it would benefit me greatly to slow people way down on leveling a skill Im one of the very few that have very high right now?
My system not only makes skilling slightly faster, but it will also help the trees stay around over all.

Anyways, I guess we will see once the re-spawn takes place and growth/planting are in.

[China]

Fix the system.
Trees should take much more time to chop down, then this "griefing" wouldnt even been seen as griefing because they could only cut about 50 trees a day, and that's not a lot, compared to now.
Like the chief tent, it takes like 5 hours of work, it should take like 1 or 1.5 hours to take out. Not something done in 5 seconds with a click of the button.

Drop the chief tent schtick. The tent was half in half out of a tribal zone and that was the ONLY reason you were able to destroy it (and no it wasn't my tribe's tent). As I told you the other night, Leaders of tribes can set permissions that limit what members of their tribe are able to access and do in their own territiories. No player, not a member of a tribe without permission or a non-member player can destroy another's property, whether it be walls, buildings or trees in that tribes territory.

[Mactavendish]

Here is something for all to think about.

MrDDT did indeed go all over leveling logging buy cutting trees... that is a well established fact.

What is not known is what his actual intent was, or if he destroyed any stumps. Doesn't matter if you "believe" he did or not, unless you saw him do it. So I cannot pass judgment on him for that. However I also cannot just buy all he says either as he was a guest tester ( may still be ) that had dev powers, did cut thousands of trees, that he has never been honest in what he says to players in game.

His suggestion may be workable, but I have no clue if it matches up with what the Dev's vision for the game.

What I see Jordi and crew developing so far is great in my eyes. With a few tweaks and an adjustment here or there will get us to a very fun and playable game.

If you make things TOO hard or tedious ... folks will get irritated and just leave.
Make it too easy and plentiful and folks will get bored and leave.

It's just like walking on a tightrope. Move the balance bar to far either way and you fall down. Atm the bar is pussed a bit too far one way.. we need it pulled back.

[mrcalhou]

Here is something for all to think about.

MrDDT did indeed go all over leveling logging buy cutting trees... that is a well established fact.

What is not known is what his actual intent was, or if he destroyed any stumps. Doesn't matter if you "believe" he did or not, unless you saw him do it. So I cannot pass judgment on him for that. However I also cannot just buy all he says either as he was a guest tester ( may still be ) that had dev powers, did cut thousands of trees, that he has never been honest in what he says to players in game.

His suggestion may be workable, but I have no clue if it matches up with what the Dev's vision for the game.

What I see Jordi and crew developing so far is great in my eyes. With a few tweaks and an adjustment here or there will get us to a very fun and playable game.

If you make things TOO hard or tedious ... folks will get irritated and just leave.
Make it too easy and plentiful and folks will get bored and leave.

It's just like walking on a tightrope. Move the balance bar to far either way and you fall down. Atm the bar is pussed a bit too far one way.. we need it pulled back.

It DOES NOT matter what his intent is or was. Denying your enemy access to resources is a key component of warfare, and if you are not a friend then you are an enemy. The problem is that the system allows trees to be cut down insanely fast and that they don't respawn. The devs need to increase the time it takes to cut down trees and add tree respawning. This shouldn't apply to just trees, the devs need to work on balancing the entire game.

Right now, the devs "vision" for the game worries me, because it changes on whims and SEVERLY lacks balance.

[Mactavendish]

I understood when I started playing that limiting resources was a ligit method in this game. I have no problem there.

But perhaps I was to obtuse for you to get my point, so let me be very plain...

Things are NOT balanced now and need to be looking into by the developers or they will lose paying players.

Trees taking an hour to cut, regardless of what exp you get, will also make players leave. This is not really a solution for the long run.

They have already introduced the dura/quality aspect of crafted items, so to me the true solution is to allow folks to plant trees in farms, make them grow fast as long as you water and feed them, and who care how long it takes to cut down since it's all about your skill and not simply about how many you can cut. Once we can grow our own, make the trees in the wilds non-resources. No more clear cutting, no more deforestation, no more gripes.

When you allow freedom to get vast quantities of resources based upon how much effort YOU are putting in to the process, folks will find entertainment from it. Just slowing the player down is NOT the solution.

[MrDDT]

Drop the chief tent schtick. The tent was half in half out of a tribal zone and that was the ONLY reason you were able to destroy it (and no it wasn't my tribe's tent). As I told you the other night, Leaders of tribes can set permissions that limit what members of their tribe are able to access and do in their own territiories. No player, not a member of a tribe without permission or a non-member player can destroy another's property, whether it be walls, buildings or trees in that tribes territory.

I think you missed the point of this, as I went over it about 100 times in IRC with you.
It takes hours to make a Chief tent. But it only takes people 5 seconds to destroy them. That's where the problem is, NOT permissions or not. I think time spent building should be a factor in how long it takes to destroy a building/wall.
This is very important for 2 reasons.
1)Griefers
2)Siege warfare.


Here is something for all to think about.

MrDDT did indeed go all over leveling logging buy cutting trees... that is a well established fact.

What is not known is what his actual intent was, or if he destroyed any stumps. Doesn't matter if you "believe" he did or not, unless you saw him do it. So I cannot pass judgment on him for that. However I also cannot just buy all he says either as he was a guest tester ( may still be ) that had dev powers, did cut thousands of trees, that he has never been honest in what he says to players in game.

His suggestion may be workable, but I have no clue if it matches up with what the Dev's vision for the game.

What I see Jordi and crew developing so far is great in my eyes. With a few tweaks and an adjustment here or there will get us to a very fun and playable game.

If you make things TOO hard or tedious ... folks will get irritated and just leave.
Make it too easy and plentiful and folks will get bored and leave.

It's just like walking on a tightrope. Move the balance bar to far either way and you fall down. Atm the bar is pussed a bit too far one way.. we need it pulled back.


Did you see my thoughts on how to fix this problem? Making it take longer, yet still reward people for their efforts.



It DOES NOT matter what his intent is or was. Denying your enemy access to resources is a key component of warfare, and if you are not a friend then you are an enemy. The problem is that the system allows trees to be cut down insanely fast and that they don't respawn. The devs need to increase the time it takes to cut down trees and add tree respawning. This shouldn't apply to just trees, the devs need to work on balancing the entire game.

Right now, the devs "vision" for the game worries me, because it changes on whims and SEVERLY lacks balance.

This is my thoughts 100% right there. It shouldnt matter what someone's intent is. It matters that the system shouldnt allow people to clear cut a zone in a few hours.


I understood when I started playing that limiting resources was a ligit method in this game. I have no problem there.

But perhaps I was to obtuse for you to get my point, so let me be very plain...

Things are NOT balanced now and need to be looking into by the developers or they will lose paying players.

Trees taking an hour to cut, regardless of what exp you get, will also make players leave. This is not really a solution for the long run.

They have already introduced the dura/quality aspect of crafted items, so to me the true solution is to allow folks to plant trees in farms, make them grow fast as long as you water and feed them, and who care how long it takes to cut down since it's all about your skill and not simply about how many you can cut. Once we can grow our own, make the trees in the wilds non-resources. No more clear cutting, no more deforestation, no more gripes.

When you allow freedom to get vast quantities of resources based upon how much effort YOU are putting in to the process, folks will find entertainment from it. Just slowing the player down is NOT the solution.


No one is saying trees should take an hour to cut. But taking 5 seconds is way to fast, to remove those resources. Go back up and reread how I planned on fixing the tree system.

Just to sum it up. I believe trees should take longer to cut, based on skill, you should get more skill per tree, and more attempts per tree. Also you should have to cut logs off the tree, which would make it take longer and give more resources per tree. Also give you more skill per tree again.

[goodayve]

off topic - Why does destroying stumps even matter? You cant get any material out of a stump can you?

do trees regrow in the same spot and the stump needs to be there? I think that might not be true.

Also, I am sure you wont use the destory command to break peoples walls and tents when destorying peoples building is in game:) If you destoryed a building it did not actually belong to anyone because it was not in tribe lands.

[MrDDT]

off topic - Why does destroying stumps even matter? You cant get any material out of a stump can you?

do trees regrow in the same spot and the stump needs to be there? I think that might not be true.

Also, I am sure you wont use the destory command to break peoples walls and tents when destorying peoples building is in game:) If you destoryed a building it did not actually belong to anyone because it was not in tribe lands.

Ya I dont know why people care about stumps. They are 100% worthless.

I think either way they should take longer to destroy. That's some hard work and it shouldnt just go POOF in 5 seconds. Not only is it unrealistic but its not balanced.

If I build a walled up outpost even if I dont have it on my tribe lands anymore people shouldnt be able to come break it down in about 30s. When it takes weeks of work to put up. Dont you think?

[goodayve]

Yea it would be nice for it to take longer.

It could maybe be used for some kind of testing for tribe war fare. If they start out just testing how to destroy stuff outside tribe lands.

But I am not sure how much it is needed. It would be kind of a pain if people destroyed your wall then you want to rebuild it. Then you have to keep moving your totem around.

I do think they need to possibly change the way totem expansion works. You should probably be able to expand without takeing your totem down, if there is room.

The game should probably be able to tell if there is enough room to expand or if there are other tribe boarders in the area.

[MrDDT]

Yea it would be nice for it to take longer.

It could maybe be used for some kind of testing for tribe war fare. If they start out just testing how to destroy stuff outside tribe lands.

But I am not sure how much it is needed. It would be kind of a pain if people destroyed your wall then you want to rebuild it. Then you have to keep moving your totem around.

I do think they need to possibly change the way totem expansion works. You should probably be able to expand without takeing your totem down, if there is room.

The game should probably be able to tell if there is enough room to expand or if there are other tribe boarders in the area.

It already does this, its based on tribe size.

[Book]

Been thinking about all this some more.

I think the thing I was saying about diminishing returns based on number of trees cut would just wind up being kind of an annoying mechanic for new players to have to learn... just probably wouldn't work for people even if it solves a mechanical problem... so that wasn't a good idea.

Also, I think the stump thing was from back when we thought trees needed the stumps to regrow. That may not be the case at all, but it was popular consensus for a while which is why when people were trying to destroy other people's resources, they took the stumps too.

About the "making it take longer" thing... and in conjunction with what I think Mac was saying about wooden walls taking so little time to make compared to stone walls. Maybe this is a balance thing implemented now for when these become defensive structures? I mean the wooden wall would be easier to destroy, but also take less time to put up.

Would making trees take longer to cut down mess with that if that was the case? In the long run I mean. Especially if they do split the stone walls in half where they might then take 40 bricks, 10 mortar per section which they did mention at one point.

I've also been thinking that the expansion totems will help a lot, but I'm wondering if maybe they should be a large enough area (depending on tribe size for labor etc.) to accommodate a sizable forest / game reserve / jogging area, whatever.

Intent: I think that came up when trying to define griefing. I do still think intent matters when trying to define that :) Kind of like shooting someone is never particular good, but there's a difference between murder and self-defense... mens rea type stuff...

[MrDDT]

Also, I think the stump thing was from back when we thought trees needed the stumps to regrow. That may not be the case at all, but it was popular consensus for a while which is why when people were trying to destroy other people's resources, they took the stumps too.

About the "making it take longer" thing... and in conjunction with what I think Mac was saying about wooden walls taking so little time to make compared to stone walls. Maybe this is a balance thing implemented now for when these become defensive structures? I mean the wooden wall would be easier to destroy, but also take less time to put up.

Would making trees take longer to cut down mess with that if that was the case? In the long run I mean. Especially if they do split the stone walls in half where they might then take 40 bricks, 10 mortar per section which they did mention at one point.




Trees don't regrow from stumps, and I told people that. It didn't even make sense why they would regrow. Someone also tried to tell me this "how else are they going to have tree regrow from stumps" its guesses like that, with other wild ideas that got people upset because people were removing stumps.
To have it confirmed trees don't regrow from stumps even shows how badly people are about things when they dont know the facts.

Yes making it take longer to get logs would effect the use of making wooden walls and other things.
But my plan doesn't lower the amount of resources much if any per time spent. It just makes it so less trees are cut down in the process.

Right now it takes me 5s to cut down a tree. It yields about 1 to 26 logs. Avg is about 10 to 12. That means the time spend is 5s x 2 (5 more seconds to chop into logs). Total of 10s to get 10 logs. That's 1 log a second.
You could make it take 1min to get 60 logs from 1 tree. Without any change in the system based on time.
IMO I think there needs to be change, because if you made it 6x more logs per tree that would 6x the amount of tree resources in the game. I think once tree regrowth is on unless it takes more than a month for trees to regrow we will have MORE than enough.
Lets say with all the tree resources right now, you have say 100k logs (AKA 10k trees). That means it would only take 100k seconds to remove all the trees in the world. (Assuming it was no time spend moving around and resting).
That's less than 30hours of cutting for 100k logs. That's a LOT of resources in a short amount of time IMO. With regrowth, you can see this would be a ton of resources.

I would rather see faster regrowth, and less yield per tree than more yield per tree and slow regrowth.
I think seeing a tree pop up after 16 to 24 game days (that's 2 to 3 days real time) would be good, depending on how hard it were to plant trees. I think this should be best case. Worse case is it should take about 48 to 72 game days (6 to 9 days). When your skills and other factors are figured in.
Also you can allow age to factor into how much they yield. Maybe 1x age = 50%, 2xage = 75%, 3-15xage = 150%, 15+xage =100%
Something like that.

Basically right now, I believe there are few tree resources left (maybe 1000 trees), but that's because no regrowth is in. But once regrowth and spawn is on, you wont see a need to change the yield by much, and mostly just add time into how long it takes to cut, so clear cutting wont be a problem.

[China]

I think you missed the point of this, as I went over it about 100 times in IRC with you.
It takes hours to make a Chief tent. But it only takes people 5 seconds to destroy them. That's where the problem is, NOT permissions or not. I think time spent building should be a factor in how long it takes to destroy a building/wall.
This is very important for 2 reasons.
1)Griefers
2)Siege warfare.

I believe the destruction of buildings/walls will be a non-factor in the way you describe it now, when combat and seige warfare is implemented.

Let's take your #1 Griefers
As it stands now someone who is not a member of your tribe cannot destroy your buildings or walls etc. So 'griefers' are a non issue as of now, unless you unknowningly give a tribe member access to those abilities and he/she turns out to be a griefer. You takes your chances <shrug>.

#2 Seige warfare
My guess that when this is implemented into the game that the devs will take into consideration what, when, how & with what instruments things will be able to be destroyed by contestants, and it won't be anything that has to do with the way architecture & city building works at the moment.

I believe you are getting the cart before the horse and #2 (Seige warfare) doesn't have anything to do with the topic of cutting trees/paving junk piles/or accidently finding a tent not placed squarely in tribe territory and being able to destroy it.

[Dubanka]

alternatively to taking more 'time'...cutting trees should take more stam. Of course taking more stam will cost time (regen), but it also leaves the char more vulnerable...so the solo clear cut artist is at a much higher degree of risk (like 1/3 stam per tree).

it is good to see us having the same 'discussion' we had 2-3 months ago :p

TREES STUMPS GRIEFING OH MY!

[MrDDT]

I believe the destruction of buildings/walls will be a non-factor in the way you describe it now, when combat and seige warfare is implemented.

Let's take your #1 Griefers
As it stands now someone who is not a member of your tribe cannot destroy your buildings or walls etc. So 'griefers' are a non issue as of now, unless you unknowningly give a tribe member access to those abilities and he/she turns out to be a griefer. You takes your chances <shrug>.

#2 Seige warfare
My guess that when this is implemented into the game that the devs will take into consideration what, when, how & with what instruments things will be able to be destroyed by contestants, and it won't be anything that has to do with the way architecture & city building works at the moment.

I believe you are getting the cart before the horse and #2 (Seige warfare) doesn't have anything to do with the topic of cutting trees/paving junk piles/or accidently finding a tent not placed squarely in tribe territory and being able to destroy it.


This isnt just about Siege warfare. You are trying to think that's the only cause of it. Also why should people be limited to only building on tribe lands? What if someone wanted to build a free city without being owned by one tribe or another? Or an outpost that's not their tribe land. Or a way station?

The point is that something that takes hours to make, should be able to be removed in seconds. Its common sense.

The topic about the trees relates to this, because its about time spent should give rewards, just as it should give protections.

Ive I take hours to divert a river, it shouldnt take someone 5 seconds to revert it back to its old land. Terraforming is already this way. Its a great system. Why not apply it to other things?
Same goes for other resources like trees.

This does apply to siege warfare. I really hope they do take this into account when thinking of that system also. But it has more than 1 point here.

If you really want to get on topic, the topic has to do with how the game looks. So that's the main point of this topic.
I dont know about you but I would love to see old totem areas left standing, with 1/2 build walls and tents when I roam around because I believe that's how the world would look. People removing them in 5 seconds, will not allow this to happen when it takes hours and hours to build them.


I believe the destruction of buildings/walls will be a non-factor in the way you describe it now, when combat and seige warfare is implemented.

Let's take your #1 Griefers
As it stands now someone who is not a member of your tribe cannot destroy your buildings or walls etc. So 'griefers' are a non issue as of now, unless you unknowningly give a tribe member access to those abilities and he/she turns out to be a griefer. You takes your chances <shrug>.

#2 Seige warfare
My guess that when this is implemented into the game that the devs will take into consideration what, when, how & with what instruments things will be able to be destroyed by contestants, and it won't be anything that has to do with the way architecture & city building works at the moment.

I believe you are getting the cart before the horse and #2 (Seige warfare) doesn't have anything to do with the topic of cutting trees/paving junk piles/or accidently finding a tent not placed squarely in tribe territory and being able to destroy it.


This isnt just about Siege warfare. You are trying to think that's the only cause of it. Also why should people be limited to only building on tribe lands? What if someone wanted to build a free city without being owned by one tribe or another? Or an outpost that's not their tribe land. Or a way station?

The point is that something that takes hours to make, should be able to be removed in seconds. Its common sense.

The topic about the trees relates to this, because its about time spent should give rewards, just as it should give protections.

Ive I take hours to divert a river, it shouldnt take someone 5 seconds to revert it back to its old land. Terraforming is already this way. Its a great system. Why not apply it to other things?
Same goes for other resources like trees.

This does apply to siege warfare. I really hope they do take this into account when thinking of that system also. But it has more than 1 point here.

If you really want to get on topic, the topic has to do with how the game looks. So that's the main point of this topic.
I dont know about you but I would love to see old totem areas left standing, with 1/2 build walls and tents when I roam around because I believe that's how the world would look. People removing them in 5 seconds, will not allow this to happen when it takes hours and hours to build them.


alternatively to taking more 'time'...cutting trees should take more stam. Of course taking more stam will cost time (regen), but it also leaves the char more vulnerable...so the solo clear cut artist is at a much higher degree of risk (like 1/3 stam per tree).

it is good to see us having the same 'discussion' we had 2-3 months ago :p

TREES STUMPS GRIEFING OH MY!


Good point, and I agree. I did lay that out in the system I noted.


alternatively to taking more 'time'...cutting trees should take more stam. Of course taking more stam will cost time (regen), but it also leaves the char more vulnerable...so the solo clear cut artist is at a much higher degree of risk (like 1/3 stam per tree).

it is good to see us having the same 'discussion' we had 2-3 months ago :p

TREES STUMPS GRIEFING OH MY!


Good point, and I agree. I did lay that out in the system I noted.

[Mactavendish]

Actually DDT I did read it .. carefully and simply disagree with it.

[MrDDT]

Actually DDT I did read it .. carefully and simply disagree with it.

Ok.
Why. Which part? The whole thing?

[GuideDina]

I remember some friends of mine, many moons ago, removing a tree stump from their front yard. It took half a day to dig the damn thing out and they still couldnt get it out. Someone came up with the bright idea to tie a rope around it and haul it out using the car. It was one of those old tough cars with the towbar, steel bumpers etc. What they didnt take into account was how the tension on the rope was going to affect the results. The stump shot out of the ground quite nicely, but continued on and through the back window of the car. How I wish I had had a video cam that day, the looks on our faces were worthy of a picture :D

I quite like the suggestion of taking more time to cut down a tree and have the tree yielding more

[NorCalGooey]

Ok.
Why. Which part? The whole thing?

I disagree! But I don't know what I disagree with.

[findangle]

Quote below..

A lot of what you tend to say on the forums i agree with. i also agree that many times players want something thats bad for the game. I think it's usually that the players don't understand how other human beings are going to behave once those changes are made and not so much that they are selfish or just don't understand cause and effect..

What i find fascinating is that you are able to identify these behaviours and motivations in other players while at the same time are completely blind to them in yourself.

You should try to take into consideration that very often (not always) you seem to use "the greater good" to justify a "play to crush" playstyle.

I think your a really intelligent person and if you put your mind to it i think you can probably learn to seperate selfish use of game mechanics from altruistic community sheparding.

I'm not trying to say selfish use of game mechanics is bad. I'm saying it's important to be able to identify it within one's own behaviour. if you can own doing a bad thing then it's truely a judgement call. if you cannot own a destructive behaviour and say "i do this and it hurts other players and turns new players off the game" then your really only hurting yourself.

All that said DDT very obviously comes from the school of "play to crush" which is a VERY common playstyle in darkfall (i'm guessing you come from there?) and it's unfortunate because the playerbase in that game right now is going through a real "come to jesus" moment where they are starting to understand that their playstyle has driven away most of the other playstyles and has created a game they no longer want to play.


Conservation will be key in this game.. crafters will conserve resources.. players like ddt will have to learn to conserve players. as he himself said "its just how the game was made". i hope you learn that the devs have given us all the power to destroy the playerbase just like you destroyed the tree's. your actions have FAR further reaching consequences to the game than you realize.

I'd say ddt has a LOT in common with the people he criticizes for "not understanding what they want".







Im not exploiting anything, and you saying that just shows had bad you are. First off I didnt build a road ANYWHERE I didnt place a totem. Even if I could, its still not exploiting. Just because you think its a neg effect on players doesnt mean its exploiting. Building roads is there for a reason.
It would be like me saying "I like your spot you placed your town, you are exploiting it" makes no sense.

Im not always right, Ive been wrong before. I admit when Im wrong. You dont, and you are wrong often.

Players often tend to not know what they want. They think they know whats best for them but often its not. It would be like giving a child candy right before bed, or water right before bed. If they knew and understand the side effects (teeth falling out, and peeing the bed etc) then they wouldnt want that now would they?

People want things easy for them all the time, they dont understand it has side effects. If everyone had what they want, then there would be no trade, no econ.

Roads are NOT the only way to destroy junk piles. There are a few ways. I dont see your point here.
Roads are a great idea. The problem is how much junk piles are in the world, not the roads. If you want a junk pile protect it. Oh wait you cant because you dont want to place a totem over it, you want it everything your way.
Also you wont protect it with force because you are a PVEer gotcha. So who cares about trade and economy. Its all about what Jadzia wants. Sadly its not whats good for the game, nor the vision of a well thought out economy.

You say you cant protect the resources 24/7 well I have to show you thats 100% wrong. My resources are 100% protected 24/7, as I stated already up a few lines on how to do that. Just admit it you are wrong, and you just want it your way.


Im not even going to go into the warfare side of this WHOLE topic. Which let me tell you is great part of it too. Because I know it will fall on deaf ears as you have no idea how to PVP, nor what people that are interested in PVP want.

Added after 11 minutes:


True, but a lot of people are upset that safe totems can be put on junk and resources in the first place.

If John Doe grabs a knife and stabs me, I'm not going to blame the kitchen utensil company, I'm going to want the person who did the stabbing held accountable.

Ferraris are beautiful cars. Take it down a crowded sidewalk though and it becomes destructive. Would we blame ferrari? Or would we hold the driver accountable?

A gun "can" be a dangerous weapon. It can also be protection, recreation, food gathering tool... if Mr. Doe shoots someone, are we going to say he's innocent because the gun was made with the potential to do harm? Or would we hold the person who did the shooting accountable?

People in game get upset about "artificial, magical" protections. They accuse others of being carebears when those protections are suggested. That is the misdirection. The blame should be on those using the tools inappropriately. The people in control of their own actions should be the ones held accountable...

If you agree that the actions are inappropriate, then blaming NG is kind of a cop out. I do agree some things are a matter of incentive, but if people were a bit more capable of holding themselves accountable instead of needing babysitting rules to help them control themselves, there would be no problem.

imho.


I think you need to take this the step further.

DDT has the tools (as we all do) to deny resources to other players.. what he likely doesn't understand is that he is denying someone the enjoyment of the game.

We too have these tools. what DDT is doing is fair and balanced because we too have the tools to deny him enjoyment of the game. It's completely within the rules for us as a community to use these same tools to deny him enjoyment of the game in an attempt to remove him from the community.. ruining another persons fun and pushing them out of the game to eliminate competition is fair game right now.. DDT does it. you could to.

[MrDDT]

Thanks for both the comments and criticism, I agree I could withhold on killing so many people, and asking "Hey you afk" or "Are you new" before I kill someone. Im sure I dont have to dry loot every player I see.

My point is that the system show punish people that play like that. Its not good for the game. I read a study that said it takes 50 good things to happen to you to make up for 1 bad thing for your psych to return to balance.

Problem is that my play style might be a bit over the top, but with the right limiting factors, it can be managed in such a way its fun for all.

Things like, maybe each time I kill a player that I attack first, I will be punished with a longer revive time on death, or stat loss.

Or maybe every item I loot, I get punished in slower skill gains for 10mins.

This can apply in many ways. My point is discourage this behavior with systems. Also encourage good ones in others. Like reward people for killing evils. Maybe you get faster skill gains for killing the Evil.



Added after 11 minutes:

I think you need to take this the step further.

DDT has the tools (as we all do) to deny resources to other players.. what he likely doesn't understand is that he is denying someone the enjoyment of the game.

We too have these tools. what DDT is doing is fair and balanced because we too have the tools to deny him enjoyment of the game. It's completely within the rules for us as a community to use these same tools to deny him enjoyment of the game in an attempt to remove him from the community.. ruining another persons fun and pushing them out of the game to eliminate competition is fair game right now.. DDT does it. you could to.

Adding to comment on this.

Yes, but really you dont want to support this type of play, as I stated above, you want to encourage people to play in a good fashion because it does make people overall happy. Bad things are going to happen, but balance it out with more good.
Reward people for playing good, punish harder for playing bad. Playing bad comes with rewards innate to being evil.

[findangle]

hehe again being smart and uncovering my hidden motives.

i was hoping to subtly troll bait you and polarize a handfull of players into turning it back against you and maybe the dev's would catch some attention and do something about it.

Alternatively i was hoping maybe you would say "yeah it's hurting people.. maybe i lay off some". but i didn't have much hope there cause your not breaking the rules or doing anything wrong. in reality your probably doing more to bring attention to the system and get it fixed. my attempt at getting players to support the playstyle was really an attempt to highlight it's destructive effect on a playerbase.

Your playstyle may be over the top but it's far from uncommon in many mmo's today. your right. it should be limited to some extent by game mechanics. it's not going away and needs to be tempered.



Thanks for both the comments and criticism, I agree I could withhold on killing so many people, and asking "Hey you afk" or "Are you new" before I kill someone. Im sure I dont have to dry loot every player I see.

My point is that the system show punish people that play like that. Its not good for the game. I read a study that said it takes 50 good things to happen to you to make up for 1 bad thing for your psych to return to balance.

Problem is that my play style might be a bit over the top, but with the right limiting factors, it can be managed in such a way its fun for all.

Things like, maybe each time I kill a player that I attack first, I will be punished with a longer revive time on death, or stat loss.

Or maybe every item I loot, I get punished in slower skill gains for 10mins.

This can apply in many ways. My point is discourage this behavior with systems. Also encourage good ones in others. Like reward people for killing evils. Maybe you get faster skill gains for killing the Evil.



Adding to comment on this.

Yes, but really you dont want to support this type of play, as I stated above, you want to encourage people to play in a good fashion because it does make people overall happy. Bad things are going to happen, but balance it out with more good.
Reward people for playing good, punish harder for playing bad. Playing bad comes with rewards innate to being evil.

[Book]

All that said DDT very obviously comes from the school of "play to crush" which is a VERY common playstyle in darkfall (i'm guessing you come from there?) and it's unfortunate because the playerbase in that game right now is going through a real "come to jesus" moment where they are starting to understand that their playstyle has driven away most of the other playstyles and has created a game they no longer want to play.

I think the notion that certain behaviors will simply drive people out of the game, and those who engage in that behavior will wind up left to play with a bunch of other people just like them because everyone else left... is something that has to be learned first-hand.
My guess is that the Darkfall folks are a bit younger, and perhaps simply haven't gone through it before. It's unfortunate if that winds up hurting the game they learn with, but that's just how it is.
It's nothing new. It's nothing original, nothing unique.

Personally, when I see that storm start to take shape, I pack my bags and head out. Life gets shorter every day. Plenty of choices out there. Why deal with it?


DDT has the tools (as we all do) to deny resources to other players.. what he likely doesn't understand is that he is denying someone the enjoyment of the game.

We too have these tools. what DDT is doing is fair and balanced because we too have the tools to deny him enjoyment of the game. It's completely within the rules for us as a community to use these same tools to deny him enjoyment of the game in an attempt to remove him from the community.. ruining another persons fun and pushing them out of the game to eliminate competition is fair game right now.. DDT does it. you could to.

Yes, I understand what comes around can just as easily go around. However, it would require me to play in a way I don't find enjoyable. Someone can make a mess of things in the mosh pit, and I could jump in and do the same to them... but I don't much enjoy mosh pits... so I'd rather just go to another concert where I don't have to deal with that.

Edit:
At the end of the day, I think a number of people like the idea of losing another "carebear." That's cool. I sincerely hope there are enough of those folks to make this a very profitable venture, and to provide them with a lot of the entertainment they enjoy. That's what it's all about, and sometimes it's best just to get out of the way for better or worse.

[Aiden]

Yeah, this is one of those never-ending, but always interesting discussions. There are so many variables to consider.

1. Allowing absolute freedom to destroy and/or grief the playerbase will result in a good portion of the population leaving.
2. Punishing players who use the mechanics as they are implemented to destroy or grief will result in a good portion of the population leaving.
3. Having systems in place that allow, with little consequence, said destruction or griefing will result in people using them for that purpose.

For example, I was just logged off for approximately 1.5-2 hours (under Tornado Warning). During that time a SINGLE PLAYER could have easily cut and destroyed every tree in my area and probably paved over a good portion of my closest junkpiles.

Both of those actions are valid ways of limiting resources that the game allows...however...it is NOT a positive action at all when considering the overall welfare of the game. If I'm on the fence about the game...I'm sure as hell done and moving on (as Book stated above). If I'm new...I've just realized that there's absolutely nothing I can do to prevent a player from destroying my in-game fun, especially when I'm not online.

All new players need to start in a safe-zone and to be tagged in some way as new...I've witnessed many new players being mowed down before they even know which way is up.

Logging needs to be redesigned to make it more labor intensive, but more rewarding for the same amount of work. If a jackwagon has to spend 10 minutes mowing down a tree near me (for the same number of logs and same skill gain as logging 10 trees now), then it'll still happen, but the level of destruction won't be so damn ridiculous.

Personally, I'd like to see junkpiles be exempt from dropping totems on, and at the same time, exempt from road-paving. But then I'd also like to see them non-renewable.

As long as the mechanics are there (and even when they're built specifically to try and limit it), someone is going to abuse them...

[Mactavendish]

I will readily admit that I have been killed by MrDDT.

whereas I will never play the game like he does, He presents a challenge to those that wish to play in other ways. The BEST then anyone can do .. is rise to the challenge.

I mean really, who care that he does what he does. It only harms YOU if you let it. Let me explain.

Sure he can kill you or destroy a tent or two. He can loot your "stuff". Big deal... all those things are very easy to replace. But what if you rose to the challenge he presents?

Say you deal with his drive by tactics, all the while building impenetrable fortifications that he simply cannot get past. Honestly how long do you think he will butt his head against the wall?

Next they put in siege abilities. A tribe will trump a lone player any day of the week... IF you actively maintain your defenses. I band of raiders come through? Just make it that much more difficult to penetrate you defenses and again... You can fart in their general direction :)

My only irritation from a player like ddt is not being ready before he runs past. Ultimately we should all be able to stand on a wall looking down at him and spit and go about our business, and just laugh at his attempts.

[findangle]

yeah we're dancing around the same issue over and over again in all these threads

either you have to make it fun to get crushed by another player even when they didn't go out looking for a fight or you have to dissuade players from crushing other players.

Added after 9 minutes:


I will readily admit that I have been killed by MrDDT.

whereas I will never play the game like he does, He presents a challenge to those that wish to play in other ways. The BEST then anyone can do .. is rise to the challenge.

I mean really, who care that he does what he does. It only harms YOU if you let it. Let me explain.

Sure he can kill you or destroy a tent or two. He can loot your "stuff". Big deal... all those things are very easy to replace. But what if you rose to the challenge he presents?

Say you deal with his drive by tactics, all the while building impenetrable fortifications that he simply cannot get past. Honestly how long do you think he will butt his head against the wall?

Next they put in siege abilities. A tribe will trump a lone player any day of the week... IF you actively maintain your defenses. I band of raiders come through? Just make it that much more difficult to penetrate you defenses and again... You can fart in their general direction :)

My only irritation from a player like ddt is not being ready before he runs past. Ultimately we should all be able to stand on a wall looking down at him and spit and go about our business, and just laugh at his attempts.


yeah you make good points there.. the whine right now is that someone is coming through and blowing up the resources and now they can't build a wall (nevermind that they're not considering other materials that can build walls.)

alot of this is probably going to go away once more of the game systems are "unlocked".. i bet a lot of this has to do with people getting bored with the scope of the game and heading out to mess with people and other people not busy enough to ignore that someone's pee'ing in their backyard.

[Dubanka]

yeah we're dancing around the same issue over and over again in all these threads

either you have to make it fun to get crushed by another player even when they didn't go out looking for a fight or you have to dissuade players from crushing other players.



you should have stopped before the or...or else you need to come up with a new game design (as it pertains to xsyon).
if you want an 'open' world with that real/tangible feeling of nervousness when you venture out into the wilds then you have to have a very real threat of violence.
the trick is the risk/reward of the equation.

players need the ability to mitigate their chance of getting jumped.
players need to have the ability always been on an equal footing (insert health per level add discussion here) with their attacker
players need the ability to hold other players accountable for their actions.

give the players the tools to play the game...then let them play.

and mr ddt sir, your stamina is pretty astounding...after having this discussion multiple times alread on this forums, i'm pretty much done with it :p you've been at it a year longer and still going.
keep up the good fight.

[MrDDT]

I think Im about to give it up.
Im going to just let the game play out, and will stop giving any ideas. I hope for the best, expect the worst as they say.

Maybe it wont be as bad as I expect.
/shrugs.

Keep up the good work Devs.

[mrcalhou]

"Don't hate the player; hate the game."

Instead of bitching and moaning about MrDDT's actions, you should be applauding him for bringing to light a very significant problem with the game.

[ColonelTEE3]

I think Im about to give it up.
Im going to just let the game play out, and will stop giving any ideas. I hope for the best, expect the worst as they say.

Maybe it wont be as bad as I expect.
/shrugs.

Keep up the good work Devs.

All evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing. Don't stop discussing, mrddt, or this game will see the NGE all over again :(

[findangle]

you should have stopped before the or...or else you need to come up with a new game design (as it pertains to xsyon).
if you want an 'open' world with that real/tangible feeling of nervousness when you venture out into the wilds then you have to have a very real threat of violence.
the trick is the risk/reward of the equation.

players need the ability to mitigate their chance of getting jumped.
players need to have the ability always been on an equal footing (insert health per level add discussion here) with their attacker
players need the ability to hold other players accountable for their actions.

give the players the tools to play the game...then let them play.

and mr ddt sir, your stamina is pretty astounding...after having this discussion multiple times alread on this forums, i'm pretty much done with it :p you've been at it a year longer and still going.
keep up the good fight.
you should read the whole thread.. we've pretty much been saying this same thing.. my apologies if you did and are simply agreeing.

[Trenchfoot]

To me this is like a discussion about a ball game.

The pros desire full contact.
And the cheerleaders want to sit on the sidelines (you're not allowed to tackle them).

I think the whole discussion boils down to this:

Either this game will be a full contact post-apoc world,
Or the post-apoc world will be nothing more than wallpaper.

Either it will have to limit competition, in which case the pros will get bored with surfing in the pool and leave for the coast.
Or it will have to provide a level of competition expected in a post-apoc world, in which case the non-competitive will tire of loosing a match they didn't want to play in the first place.

And I hate to say it because I don't like the idea of two servers. But these two sides are for the better part mutually exclusive. You will never get those who enjoy a real challenge to enjoy mock competition. Sooner or later, they'll figure out they're chasing their tail and be done with it. Likewise, you will never get those who hate to ever loose, to enjoy competition.

The competitive are the dominant gene so to speak. So that when you put these two groups together, you're essentially providing competition with another tool to compete, which leads to an endless set of rules and regulations that eventually makes the post-apoc world a theme.

The only way to give them both what they want 'in its entirety' is to separate them.

What if there were no noob safe zones, but instead a 'training' server? One where post-apoc is just wallpaper and has no teeth?

I don't like it either but I feel forced into a corner. I'm convinced you'll never make these two groups happy together unless you separate them in some way whether its zones or servers or whatever.

If one person wants spaghetti and another cherry pie, you don't mix spaghetti and cherry pie together and serve them both spaghetta-cherri-pie. You have to serve them both on their own plate and there is no way to make the person who wants spaghetti to 'WANT' cherry pie in his spaghetti.

Mmmmm spaghetta-cherri-pie.......

[Azhul_NS]

I agree that separating the two types of players is the only likely way to please the PvE fans, However, it will drive away some of the PvPers. Not all players are equal, and some PvPers can only beat people who have little or no interest/ability in PvP.

The other issue is cost. I am pretty sure Xsyon is hurting for money, and probably can't afford another server.

[Trenchfoot]

and some PvPers can only beat people who have little or no interest/ability in PvP.

This makes me laugh because its sadly true. hehe I would say good riddance to this one. If you can't stand the heat, well.... then melt.


The other issue is cost. I am pretty sure Xsyon is hurting for money, and probably can't afford another server.

Of course. Plus the player population issue. ie. How do you grow two simultaneous communities and still have enough players to attract both to something more than an empty world?

[Azhul_NS]

Forgot to mention that you made a very good post, there, Trenchfoot.

Also: well, I have seen it in other games (like Fallen Earth) that the concept of post-apoc survival gets watered down so as not to scare some people away. Unfortunately, this drives away people like me, who WANT survival to be tough. This is why I can't get into Xsyon as it is. It NEEDS comfort, hunger, and thirst to be major factors.

One of the best things about Xsyon currently is the absence of NPCs - merchants and quest givers. I hope they stick to that, but they must have someone pointing out that making it more theme park would attract more players.

[jemmus]

Forgot to mention that you made a very good post, there, Trenchfoot.

Also: well, I have seen it in other games (like Fallen Earth) that the concept of post-apoc survival gets watered down so as not to scare some people away. Unfortunately, this drives away people like me, who WANT survival to be tough. This is why I can't get into Xsyon as it is. It NEEDS comfort, hunger, and thirst to be major factors.

One of the best things about Xsyon currently is the absence of NPCs - merchants and quest givers. I hope they stick to that, but they must have someone pointing out that making it more theme park would attract more players.

/\ Exactly why I signed up for Xsyon instead of some PVP-first MMO. From the promo material it looked like there was going to be a wilderness survival aspect to it. That survival thing would make Xsyon pretty unique among MMOs I think. If I were the devs I capitalize on that and make surviving actually an interesting challenge.

[Jadzia]

Good post,Trench, and while I don't agree with all of your reasoning I do agree with the conclusion. No one likes spaghetta-cherri-pie, so don't mix the 2.


It NEEDS comfort, hunger, and thirst to be major factors.

This is what I'd love to see as well.

[Book]

/\ Exactly why I signed up for Xsyon instead of some PVP-first MMO. From the promo material it looked like there was going to be a wilderness survival aspect to it. That survival thing would make Xsyon pretty unique among MMOs I think. If I were the devs I capitalize on that and make surviving actually an interesting challenge.

The survival aspect is what also drew me in within the first few minutes of entering the game. I was growing hungry and thirsty, and felt I needed to fix that. Didn't realize it had no effect yet... but still.

I'd definitely agree that would be a great focus for the game.

There's no PvP ladder in Xsyon. The notion that pvpers are all uberlike pros and everyone else just needs training wheels is boring. It's overdone. It stinks of megalomania. It's a dime a dozen and not even worth the dime.

Post Apoc doesn't HAVE to mean Mad Max. This is where those folks would say "Think out of the box." Right back at ya. Not everyone needs pixelated teeth to have fun. Beating someone up with a keyboard and mouse while drinkin' Dew, or whatever else, doesn't have to be the focus of every game out there.

Someone mentioned NGE. That watered down all mechanics of SWG, not just for the pvpers... even if they feel they're the most important and worthy demographic to ever walk upright.

[Creator]

I find this topic a bit funny.

I have several times spoke to players in xsyon since I started a very short while ago. Most them immediately jump to.. " one man tribe, it has to be tough, man what are you going to do when people can raid your stuff?"

logically there is safety in numbers... but you will always have rogue elements. I don't believe in pixel hugging, items come and go real easy, skill is the only thing I care if I keep.

One of the reason I help players is I am building a relationship with all of you, with the hope some where down the line, maybe you are elite pvp, maybe you or your clan can provide me with shelter, safety or resources I can't get to. It is possibility all my investment, time and effort, especially in a game could and might very well be forgotten when pvp is thrown down.

I don't mind though, it is a risk I take, it is what makes the game interesting to me. I say a lot of silly shit, I cause a stir when I can... I don't play like ddt, but I respect the guys style, and his points of view, cause they add spice to the game, to the world.

Point is I don't believe in safe zones, they should be removed, you are only as safe as your numbers, your wits, your connections. If 20 guys raid a city of 40, and wipe em by surprise, well... welcome to how a real apocalyptic world would be like.

We spend to much time, in real life, in games, etc with this false concept of a fair and just world... it doesn't work that way... a system exist when it is strong enough to support itself, fairness is a luxury, and in my eyes a detraction from the whole environment of the game play in xsyon.

No safe zones, no rules other than no hacking, exploitng etc, cause in an apocalyptic world and I think most of you agree, the thing that is most attractive about it is the fact that other than what you can talk all you want, and say how it is but until you can enforce it... might as well be breathing the zone's mist.

[Dubanka]

The survival aspect is what also drew me in within the first few minutes of entering the game. I was growing hungry and thirsty, and felt I needed to fix that. Didn't realize it had no effect yet... but still.

I'd definitely agree that would be a great focus for the game.

There's no PvP ladder in Xsyon. The notion that pvpers are all uberlike pros and everyone else just needs training wheels is boring. It's overdone. It stinks of megalomania. It's a dime a dozen and not even worth the dime.

Post Apoc doesn't HAVE to mean Mad Max. This is where those folks would say "Think out of the box." Right back at ya. Not everyone needs pixelated teeth to have fun. Beating someone up with a keyboard and mouse while drinkin' Dew, or whatever else, doesn't have to be the focus of every game out there.

Someone mentioned NGE. That watered down all mechanics of SWG, not just for the pvpers... even if they feel they're the most important and worthy demographic to ever walk upright.

there is a 6 digit playerbase out there waiting for an open world / sandbox / ffa game done right.

done right means a game with balanced economic, political, and warfare systems.

done right means having a system that promotes conflict yet at the same time, provides a 'safe' path for those that would prefer to not risk as much (insert risk reward discussion that we've had a couple times).

done right means having design elements that encourage players to interact with one another to achieve certain goals...goals that are defined by individual players needs and wants.

done right means a system designed so players have to tools to deal with most issues themselves.

I gotta say, I don't have a lot of faith that the game will get done right. The contingent that remains, is mostly 'happy' with the status quo of build, craft, scavange, oh-my. PvP features that get introduced will not be thoroughly tested...primarily because i don't see many of the pvp folks coming back to pay-to-test...and unless systems are thoroughly tested, well, we end up where we started when us new folks showed up rabid for a game that looked a lot like modern day UO (it wasn't pretty). Anyway, don't actually care too much anymore...just trying to finish up the vd temple before my time runs out. /tip

[MrDDT]

there is a 6 digit playerbase out there waiting for an open world / sandbox / ffa game done right.

done right means a game with balanced economic, political, and warfare systems.

done right means having a system that promotes conflict yet at the same time, provides a 'safe' path for those that would prefer to not risk as much (insert risk reward discussion that we've had a couple times).

done right means having design elements that encourage players to interact with one another to achieve certain goals...goals that are defined by individual players needs and wants.

done right means a system designed so players have to tools to deal with most issues themselves.

I gotta say, I don't have a lot of faith that the game will get done right. The contingent that remains, is mostly 'happy' with the status quo of build, craft, scavange, oh-my. PvP features that get introduced will not be thoroughly tested...primarily because i don't see many of the pvp folks coming back to pay-to-test...and unless systems are thoroughly tested, well, we end up where we started when us new folks showed up rabid for a game that looked a lot like modern day UO (it wasn't pretty). Anyway, don't actually care too much anymore...just trying to finish up the vd temple before my time runs out. /tip



I think you are missing the.

"Dear Jesus" and "Amen"

Preach it, we can only dream one day.

[Book]

I think you are missing the.

"Dear Jesus" and "Amen"

Preach it, we can only dream one day.

Those things are superfluous when preaching to the choir.

[MrDDT]

Those things are superfluous when preaching to the choir.

I do try to show respect to my elders =P

[Creator]

done right...

In order for the done right... is to make everyone happy, is to make a game superior to real life, where the only reason one would consider to leave is to go to work and occasionally sleep and eat.

done right... is a virtual utopia, that is what you are saying, what most of you are discussing, the "always wanting more..." factor.

People bitch and whine about wow, but it sells cause though at the end of the day it is what the majority feels is.... "done right".

I want a working combat system, I want shit to kill, and gas masks... :)
Unless if I am mistaken, what most of you want is real life... but a twisted version of it, a version you feel is fair, a version which suits yourself.

One which complete opposite copies exist in the same place, at the same time.

I think what is done right is...

- working combat
- weapons, buildings, equipment, transport and ways to produce/place them
- shit to kill, people to kill

... is not everyones version of done right.

No Rules, No Safe Zones...

However what some of you think is done right is something different, some of you vastly different. But this game cannot be.. "Everything" there has to be a realistic expectation.

I know what I say sounds offensive, it sounds... accusatory maybe to... but I want you to understand a perspective, that you have two options...

A game which fits us, you, most of us here... or a game which fits a 6 figure player base, which is vastly different... No matter how good something is, someone will always get bored, someone will always bitch, complain, whine, and say it... isn't, done... right!


While xsyon has a long long way to go before being "done right" in anyones opinion... we should focus on what we do like, what is "done right" and what can be added on top of those solid foundations to make the game more immersive, enjoyable and retains more players without watering down the experience.

EDIT: I do not believe watering down the experience with safe zones, or bunches of player conduct rules.. is the right path. Either you want realism, how safety is acquired rl, or you want Wow... so take your pick.

[Jadzia]

A game which fits us, you, most of us here... or a game which fits a 6 figure player base, which is vastly different... No matter how good something is, someone will always get bored, someone will always bitch, complain, whine, and say it... isn't, done... right!


While xsyon has a long long way to go before being "done right" in anyones opinion... we should focus on what we do like, what is "done right" and what can be added on top of those solid foundations to make the game more immersive, enjoyable and retains more players without watering down the experience.

So you suggest to make an official poll (through emails probably) to figure out what 'most of us' like :) Plus the devs should ask their aimed playerbase as well what they would like. Then ask the devs if they are willing to make a game like that. Isn't this called market research ?

[MrDDT]

So you suggest to make an official poll (through emails probably) to figure out what 'most of us' like :) Plus the devs should ask their aimed playerbase as well what they would like. Then ask the devs if they are willing to make a game like that. Isn't this called market research ?

I think better is to just have the devs say what they want, and then allow players to give feed back to help mold that view.
Oh wait he did that already.

[Jadzia]

I think better is to just have the devs say what they want, and then allow players to give feed back to help mold that view.
Oh wait he did that already.

Why ? That way he would get to know 10-15 players opinions only. Thats not representative in any way.
I prefer what SE did with FFXIV...2 huge polls where they asked every player who bought the game. Now thats what I call feedback.

[MrDDT]

Why ? That way he would get to know 10-15 players opinions only. Thats not representative in any way.
I prefer what SE did with FFXIV...2 huge polls where they asked every player who bought the game. Now thats what I call feedback.

Thanks for your opinion.

Prefer to see a way where people can discuss and find a possible working away. Instead of having a poll of limited options that may or may not work.
Polls by email are very very limited in scope thus giving very little feedback.

Plus how does that reach out to people that have not bought or signed up for the game yet? You cant get everyone. I would much rather have a few well informed people of Xsyon hammer out details of how to get a system working within guidelines (from the devs ideas/thoughts).

But hey that's just me. Maybe a poll is best. So that the 13k people that have signed up you might get 1/3 of those to reply in a limited poll. (Which options should be in this poll again? haha)

[Jadzia]

Thanks for your opinion.

Prefer to see a way where people can discuss and find a possible working away. Instead of having a poll of limited options that may or may not work.
Polls by email are very very limited in scope thus giving very little feedback.

Plus how does that reach out to people that have not bought or signed up for the game yet? You cant get everyone. I would much rather have a few well informed people of Xsyon hammer out details of how to get a system working within guidelines (from the devs ideas/thoughts).

But hey that's just me. Maybe a poll is best. So that the 13k people that have signed up you might get 1/3 of those to reply in a limited poll. (Which options should be in this poll again? haha)
You are again arguing the wrong person. I replied to Perefim who would like to see implemented that 'most of us' like. The only way to get to know what most of us like is to ask it. Ask everyone, not a selected few. I'm not saying this should happen, but if they do want to know what the playerbase want that is the only way.

[Trenchfoot]

B.E. had this built into the game which was pretty handy. Every time you would log in you would answer a poll question. Once you answered one the next time a new one would appear.

I'm not saying things should be decided solely on this basis. But it sure did make me feel like my opinion mattered.

EDIT: In the spirit of full disclosure I should state that I later found out my opinion didn't matter. hehe

[Creator]

You are again arguing the wrong person. I replied to Perefim who would like to see implemented that 'most of us' like. The only way to get to know what most of us like is to ask it. Ask everyone, not a selected few. I'm not saying this should happen, but if they do want to know what the playerbase want that is the only way.

I never stated implementing anything, I merely stating the fact when someone mentioned... "if it was... "done right"... there would be a 6 figure player base", that a mass of people is not necessarily a measure of success. We could also argue my point, but either way there are more to games then having 1 million users, like in many korean games are mainly 12 - 16 year old tards which haven't had enough life experience to identify their head from their ass.

[Dubanka]

You are again arguing the wrong person. I replied to Perefim who would like to see implemented that 'most of us' like. The only way to get to know what most of us like is to ask it. Ask everyone, not a selected few. I'm not saying this should happen, but if they do want to know what the playerbase want that is the only way.

Honestly...screw 'us'.

I want the devs to build the game they want to build, and tell us to like and stfu, or leave.

I want the devs to tell us what they're going to do, why they're going to do it, then get it done.

I want the devs to rely upon the players to give them feedback to determine if their intent is working as intended, or not.

Trees are supposed to grow back once per game year. Deal with it.
Combat is always going to suck. Deal with it.
Resources can be destroyed. Deal with it.
Here is how territorial warfare will work. You're welcome to discuss it. But this is how its going to work. Deal.

See, i think a huge issue for a large portion of the player base (and yes we've been over this a ton already) is i read the game description, i read the faq, i read the dev posts, and my brain understands those things to mean X. Jadzia reads them and understands them to mean Q. Resulting frustration ensues as X<>Q and no one steps in to stop the madness.

the original game design is incredible. it has the ability to appeal to players across genres, and if done right, retain them for long periods of time. Build the game, engage the community, let the community help bring your vision to life...don't let the community determine your vision, because while we're well intentioned, we're nuts.

[Jadzia]

I like your posts, Dub :)

And I agree. It would be nice to see devs who made up their minds and stick to their decisions and communicate it clearly.

[Trenchfoot]

I'm not nuts. At least that's what the voices in my head tell me when I'm not drinking.

[MrDDT]

Honestly...screw 'us'.

I want the devs to build the game they want to build, and tell us to like and stfu, or leave.

I want the devs to tell us what they're going to do, why they're going to do it, then get it done.

I want the devs to rely upon the players to give them feedback to determine if their intent is working as intended, or not.

Trees are supposed to grow back once per game year. Deal with it.
Combat is always going to suck. Deal with it.
Resources can be destroyed. Deal with it.
Here is how territorial warfare will work. You're welcome to discuss it. But this is how its going to work. Deal.

See, i think a huge issue for a large portion of the player base (and yes we've been over this a ton already) is i read the game description, i read the faq, i read the dev posts, and my brain understands those things to mean X. Jadzia reads them and understands them to mean Q. Resulting frustration ensues as X<>Q and no one steps in to stop the madness.

the original game design is incredible. it has the ability to appeal to players across genres, and if done right, retain them for long periods of time. Build the game, engage the community, let the community help bring your vision to life...don't let the community determine your vision, because while we're well intentioned, we're nuts.


I tried to say this, but I didnt say it this well.

Spot on again. FYI people Dubanka is not my alt account. Just wanted to clear that up now.

[Jadzia]

FYI people Dubanka is not my alt account. Just wanted to clear that up now.
Don't worry. By comparing your posts, styles and intentions no one would ever get to that thought.

[Shrimps]

I wish Dubanka was my alt account, it'd make me seem alot smarter.
As always I agree with Dubanka, maybe I should just stop posting and just refer people to his posts.

[Book]

Honestly...screw 'us'.

I want the devs to build the game they want to build, and tell us to like and stfu, or leave.

I want the devs to tell us what they're going to do, why they're going to do it, then get it done.

I want the devs to rely upon the players to give them feedback to determine if their intent is working as intended, or not.

Trees are supposed to grow back once per game year. Deal with it.
Combat is always going to suck. Deal with it.
Resources can be destroyed. Deal with it.
Here is how territorial warfare will work. You're welcome to discuss it. But this is how its going to work. Deal.

See, i think a huge issue for a large portion of the player base (and yes we've been over this a ton already) is i read the game description, i read the faq, i read the dev posts, and my brain understands those things to mean X. Jadzia reads them and understands them to mean Q. Resulting frustration ensues as X<>Q and no one steps in to stop the madness.

the original game design is incredible. it has the ability to appeal to players across genres, and if done right, retain them for long periods of time. Build the game, engage the community, let the community help bring your vision to life...don't let the community determine your vision, because while we're well intentioned, we're nuts.

Finally I understand and agree with what the man is saying. Check your chickens, they've just grown teeth.

When Jadzia mentioned the "aimed playerbase" earlier, I realized my frustration is largely from not being able to figure out who that actually is at the moment. No problem if it's X, but I'd rather know that before investing too much into a character only to have the proverbial rug pulled out from under me down the road. I think that's probably one of the things both X and Q have in common.